People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby DavidD » 28 Sep 2010 09:18

nukavarapu wrote:
shiv wrote:Personally I agree with your viewpoint. But there is a caveat to holding that view. The spectacularly greedy "America" like civilization is impossible with what you have stated. China is attempting to achieve that spectacular, extraordinarily greedy "America-like" civilization - having constructed America like glass and concrete urban jungles and going the America route of one man one car. If we want to be like America or China we have to do what they did or are doing despite the fact that it is currently unsustainable environmentally or resource wise. If we aim for "less" we will be "less"


Theoretically, there can be such a country. Just for the argument sake, we need lot of energy for our growth. Economical growth and military muscle are directly proportional. So, the best thing we can do is what exactly America did and the new asian bandar is trying to imitate. That is practicality and I completely concur. But why people wish to observe a wrong method and just simply try to follow it, to have the gains at an expense on the corpses of innocents? We can always think alternate methods by bringing Innovation. Why not invest Billions of dollars to expand the Nuclear generation capacity and invest on RnD to innovate and build Thorium cycle? Why not take a lead in the Research of Fusion reactors? Why not invest and nurture Energy plants based on reverse osmosis? Why not be energy efficient so that we rely less on imports and need not fight like mad dogs with the other bull dogs called Ameerkhan and chipanda? Why not research unconventional methods for energy generation? Why not make it a rule to build only energy efficient constructions and incorporate energy efficient and eco-friendly methods in any construction that uses steel and concrete? I agree its a pipe dream, but my direction is definitely not wrong. This approach may not yeild results immediately, but rest assured, 100 years the down the line we would had already set an example to the whole world before we could even realize.

I personally feel that there are more than one ways to climb the ladder especially not what ameerkhan and chipanda are doing, by stepping on the heads of weak and less privileged and using greed as the only direction. It just needs a different set of eyes to find the alternate way and maybe that is what we call being Creative is being master of simple things.



It won't work. If you're on your way to constructing more energy efficient machines or discovering alternative energy sources, then other nations would do the same. They would use this energy, and any other type of energy they may obtain to build machines(especially those of war) that are even more energy consuming than what they have now.

The problem isn't that there isn't enough energy. There will never be enough energy, because we humans will always consume all we have and then desire for more. Not everybody will have more, and that's when conflict arises, where the wheat is separated from the chaff, and where evolution occurs as the weak is eliminated and the strong survives. It's how we humans evolved above all other species on the planet, although as noted, our insatiable desire may also be the way to our end.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Raghavendra » 28 Sep 2010 09:33

AKalam wrote:And when the time and inclination is right, one can of course try some ideas I have mentioned earlier, such as an EU style SAARC regional integration

:rotfl: Most EU nations have similar political structures that makes sense to have an union.

Dont know about you but I dont want to live under a army boot, pakistanis can have that shameful slavery :lol:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby DavidD » 28 Sep 2010 09:59

nukavarapu wrote:You missed the whole point. I agree there will never be enough energy to satisfy everyone. But that doesn't mean that you need to be greedy to satisfy your needs. The whole point is finding a way without exploiting others and becoming self sufficient in reliable and dependable energy source. Do you think it is that easy to copy an alternate energy source method given the complexity? I know Chinese are good in copying almost everything but that doesn't mean they can make the copy work the same way.

I can see the complete capitalist approach in your post about how there will always be two classes of countries, those who exploit and those who get exploited. Well you need to get out of that mindset to think about a way where atleast waging of wars for energy source is stopped.

Added Later

BTW, technology can be copied or emulated. The problem is that the same thing is not true for attitude. A society needs to have the attitude to be self-sufficient and that is where everyone is lacking. If France is 97% self sufficient for its energy needs by adopting nuclear energy, why can't countries like USA, China or India with comparatively more resources emulate. It is difficult but is it impossible?


You don't need to be greedy, but we as humans ARE greedy and always WILL be greedy. Energy isn't generated from vacuum, even nuclear energy requires Uranium. If every country turns to nuclear energy, it'll still be a race to see who can generate and consume the most energy, and natural resources will still be needed.

What you need to get out of your head is that it's bad for the world to be exploit vs. being exploited. The strong survives and that's how our species grows. That lovey-dovey crap of "why can't we all just get along" is why the western world is heading down. Heck, just look at the dysfunctional crapper France is turning into--they seem to be always on strike and they're xenophobically blaming foreigners/other cultures for their own incompetence.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Philip » 28 Sep 2010 10:08

Guys,reg. energy,Britain proudly announced recently that just one day's offshore windmills powered 25% of the country's daily energy requirements! India has a massive coastline where we can establish lakhs of offshore windmills,far more eco-friendly than very expensive N-power with all its "fallout" pun intended! Some state govts. in India are becoming increasingly depepdent upon wind energy production which are vital to their power requirements,N-plants plans notwithstanding.The worldwide trend towards electric propulsion for cars,rail and passenger road vehicles is making rapid ground.Solar plants on a massive scale are being planned worldwide,especially in power hungry nations.If India thinks "outside the box" innovatively and leapfrog obsolete fossil fuel tech.we will save a huge amount by reducing our fossil fuel requirements and dependence on imports.

However,when dealing with China and its ambitions,India has NO alternative but to agressively ocounter China wherever it can to safeguard its own interests.The MEA has to be overhauled completely and become a pro-active arm of the Indian state in furthering its interests in mutually beneficial deals with energy and mineral rich nations.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby DavidD » 28 Sep 2010 10:33

nukavarapu wrote:
DavidD wrote:You don't need to be greedy, but we as humans ARE greedy and always WILL be greedy. Energy isn't generated from vacuum, even nuclear energy requires Uranium. If every country turns to nuclear energy, it'll still be a race to see who can generate and consume the most energy, and natural resources will still be needed.

What you need to get out of your head is that it's bad for the world to be exploit vs. being exploited. The strong survives and that's how our species grows. That lovey-dovey crap of "why can't we all just get along" is why the western world is heading down. Heck, just look at the dysfunctional crapper France is turning into--they seem to be always on strike and they're xenophobically blaming foreigners/other cultures for their own incompetence.


Don't equate your thoughts on entire humanity. U can say Americans are greedy or Chinese are greedy and please don't put that blame on all humans. There are still societies who think of being peaceful and not greedy, well I don't think you every got a chance to study them. There is no need for every country to turn towards nuclear energy and hence the most of the nordic nations are turning to reverse-osmosis. There are many ways out there, just need to put the greed aside and think creatively. But how can the mind be creative when it is overwhelmed by greed? My head is perfectly fine, the problem seems to be with the whole capitalist and pseudo-capitalists. Don't talk about species. Survival of the fittest is the rule of the jungle which is being emulated in the world as humans are becoming more like animals. The best part is people like you justify becoming animals but not being humans, what a pity. I am not talking about getting along with everyone in the world. But yeah, I do think about I don't get into your shit and you don't better get into mine. You can do whatever with your shit as long as you don't hurt me.

If france is crapper than what example should I say about the recent Foxconn and honda manufacturing plants strikes? That is a very bad example. Every country has these problems and is nothing related to being self-sufficient energy wise. The way you argue it seems that you are oriented towards exploiting everyone that you think is weaker than you. I am very happy that I don't share that mindset.

Before the Moghuls and British came, we were that kind of society and I belong to that society which lived in peace with everyone. We were doing great both economically and culturally and the only reason we were conquered is we took the route of peace to that extent that we forgot to defend ourselves. Being born to such a society I will always dream and work towards what my fore-fathers achieved and we as a country will definitely set that example again, the same way we did couple of centuries back.


That's exactly my point. If you're not exploiting, then you'll be exploited by exploiting ******** like me. :twisted:

Seriously, you're sounding pretty damn communist with that kind of talk. If large portions of humans aren't greedy, then your ideals would work. What's a more harmonious society than "from each according his abilities and to each according to his needs?" The problem is that people want more than what they need and they want to get it by applying as few abilities as possible. You asked how the mind can be creative when it's overwhelmed with greed? The answer is that greed is exactly what drives people to create. Of course, you're probably expecting this answer already, since it's the very creed of capitalism.

As for the France vs. China comparison, I'm comparing each country with its former self, and their growth each other. France is still better than China right now, no doubt, but one is heading up and one is heading down. The mindset in these countries have a lot to do with it.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Dhiman » 28 Sep 2010 10:53

DavidD wrote:It won't work. If you're on your way to constructing more energy efficient machines or discovering alternative energy sources, then other nations would do the same. They would use this energy, and any other type of energy they may obtain to build machines(especially those of war) that are even more energy consuming than what they have now.


Nothing wrong with that other nations picking up on a good idea :-) and nothing wrong with building machines that use more energy if more energy is available / accessible.

There will never be enough energy, because we humans will always consume all we have and then desire for more.


How much energy is available basically depends upon our current technology. but, there is no rule of nature that says that humans will consume all energy that they can access (i.e the greedy approach). It hasn't been true in past and won't be true in future.

Not everybody will have more, and that's when conflict arises.


Conflicts can and do arise both out of scarcity and greed. However, there are two options here: 1) live within your means until you are able to ethically expand those means or 2) go kill your neighbor and steal his energy supply. In the first case, one would devote resources to expanding the frontiers of sustainable living while as in the second case one would devote resources to expanding the frontiers of their weaponry. Usually, in modern times, nations do both, but some nations do more of one than the other.

where the wheat is separated from the chaff, and where evolution occurs as the weak is eliminated and the strong survives.


So Darwin did say that "Fittest will survive", but what is important to remember IMHO is that he made no attempt in defining what "Fit" is. There is nothing to show that a greedy entity that exploits nature is necessarily fitter that an entity that has learned to live in sync with nature. In either case, with respect to evolution, one should not confuse "strong" and "weak" with "fittest." Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I remember, "Fittest" in terms of evolution usually means those who are well adapted to a given set of environmental conditions rather than those who are strong (i.e can beat the shit out of others) or weak (i.e can't beat the shit out of others).

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Dhiman » 28 Sep 2010 11:06

DavidD wrote:The problem is that people want more than what they need and they want to get it by applying as few abilities as possible.


I guess as long as you understand that there is no natural or scientific law that makes this an absolute truth, the rest is up to your "free will" as to weather you want to believe in "greed" or "sustainable living" or some combination of both :-)

In my haste to follow this chain of reasoning, I hope I am not going off topic.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Karan Dixit » 29 Sep 2010 09:14

nukavarapu,

Excellent posts! I just wanted to add my two paisas. If we can separate the reality from all the propaganda (regarding supel powel), France is the only country other than Russia that can hit US effectively from anywhere anytime.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Ameet » 29 Sep 2010 12:59

Relocating from China to India: What to Expect

http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2010 ... xpect.html

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby DavidD » 30 Sep 2010 00:44

nuka and dhiman, I'm very busy until this weekend, so I'd like to continue this at a later date. In the meantime, I think it'd be best to take a look at human history and the rise and fall of nations and empires. India has a long history much like China, so you can probably draw enough examples from your own country to prove or disprove your points.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby VinodTK » 30 Sep 2010 05:05

Anxiety and confidence behind China's tough stance in trawler incident

What did Japan gain from giving in to China? The view from overseas is that Japan caved in to Chinese pressure. For its part, Beijing is now assessing the countermeasures it took, trying to find out which lever was most effective in putting pressure on Japan to concede.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby chaanakya » 30 Sep 2010 05:17

Dhiman wrote:So Darwin did say that "Fittest will survive", but what is important to remember IMHO is that he made no attempt in defining what "Fit" is. There is nothing to show that a greedy entity that exploits nature is necessarily fitter that an entity that has learned to live in sync with nature. In either case, with respect to evolution, one should not confuse "strong" and "weak" with "fittest." Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I remember, "Fittest" in terms of evolution usually means those who are well adapted to a given set of environmental conditions rather than those who are strong (i.e can beat the shit out of others) or weak (i.e can't beat the shit out of others).

You are right. It's Natural selection of species by capacity to adapt to change. But for PRC, it actually means Fittest as in best physical shape. Like Dinosaurs.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby VinodTK » 30 Sep 2010 05:41

China targeted in bill on currency manipulation

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said that in 20 years America's trade deficit with China has gone from $5 billion annually to $5 billion every week, an imbalance she said demanded action by Congress to protect American jobs.

"We do this because 1 million American jobs could be created if the Chinese government took its thumb off the scale and allowed its currency to respond to market forces," she said in a speech on the House floor.


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Hari Seldon » 30 Sep 2010 09:42

But the societies who chose to live in peace with world and others, though they got captured, they never got annihilated and they still continue to exist.


Are you sure? Who then cries for Canaan? Or the Red Indians and the Mayans in the Americas?

Let's not get unrealistic in our idealism. I love the idea of India and believe it's truly exceptional only. However, the sentiment ends there and realism takes over thereafter. The conquerors, given another few centuries would have wiped out the culture and traditions and faith and values native to India. Just look at Pakistan today to get an idea of what happens when that happens. That they couldn't (not wouldn't) is a stroke of luck. Only. Never again! Peace.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Ameet » 30 Sep 2010 10:52

China moving heaven and Earth to bring water to Beijing

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 5261.story

It might be the most ambitious construction project in China since the Great Wall.

The Chinese government is planning to reroute the nation's water supply, bringing water from the flood plains of the south and the snowcapped mountains of the west to the parched capital of Beijing. First envisioned by Mao Tse-tung in the 1950s and now coming to fruition, the South-North Water Diversion — as it is inelegantly known in English — has a price tag of more than $62 billion, twice as expensive as the famous Three Gorges Dam. It is expected to take decades to complete.

"This is on a par with the Great Wall, a project essential for the survival of China," said Wang Shushan, who heads the project in Henan province, where much of the construction is now taking place. "It is a must-do project. We can't afford to wait."

"They are robbing the water of the rest of China to supply Beijing — and it probably won't work anyway," said Dai Qing, a pro-democracy activist who was imprisoned during the run-up to the Tiananmen Square protests in 1989 and who now focuses on water issues.

Dai said there wasn't enough clean water in southern China to supply the north and that whatever water does reach Beijing might be too polluted to be usable.
In fact, the Chinese government has acknowledged that the water from an eastern spur of the diversion project, which follows the route of the 1,400-year-old Grand Canal waterway, is so toxic that it is unclear whether it can be used even for agriculture.


"We've been saying this for years: Beijing was just the political and cultural capital of China, and if the population were kept under 6 million, we wouldn't have this problem," she said. "But now there are too many vested political and real estate interests."

Yet with Beijing's population topping 17 million and projected to double in the next 40 years, there's no turning back.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Ameet » 30 Sep 2010 10:56

China raising a generation of left-behind children

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... Stories%29

The tradition of tightknit families is eroding as increasing numbers of villagers head to cities to look for work, leaving their children, estimated at 58 million nationwide, behind with grandparents.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby arun » 30 Sep 2010 14:01

X Posted.

Jeffrey Carr in a column written for Forbes Magazine and posted on their blog site speculates that the India’s INSAT 4 B Satellite may have been the real target of the attack by the Stuxnet worm initiated by the Peoples Republic of China :

Did The Stuxnet Worm Kill India’s INSAT-4B Satellite?

Posted by JEFFREY CARR

On July 7, 2010, a power glitch in the solar panels of India’s INSAT-4B satellite resulted in 12 of its 24 transponders shutting down. .......................

Once it became apparent that INSAT-4B was effectively dead, SunDirect ordered its servicemen to redirect customer satellite dishes to point to ASIASAT-5, a Chinese satellite owned and operated by Asia Satellite Telecommunications Co., Ltd (AsiaSat). AsiaSat’s two primary shareholders are General Electric and China International Trust and Investment Co. (CITIC), a state-owned company. China and India are competing with each other to see who will be the first to land another astronaut on the Moon. China has announced a date of 2025 while India is claiming 2020.

What does this have to do with the Stuxnet worm that’s infected thousands of systems, mostly in India and Iran? India’s Space Research Organization is a Siemens customer. According to the resumes of two former engineers who worked at the ISRO’s Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre, the Siemens software in use is Siemens S7-400 PLC and SIMATIC WinCC, both of which will activate the Stuxnet worm.

I uncovered this information as part of my background research for a paper that I’m presenting at the Black Hat Abu Dhabi conference in November. ......................

Forbes Blog

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Shankas » 30 Sep 2010 16:16

[quote="arun"]X Posted.

Jeffrey Carr in a column written for Forbes Magazine and posted on their blog site speculates that the India’s INSAT 4 B Satellite may have been the real target of the attack by the Stuxnet worm initiated by the Peoples Republic of China :

[quote]Did The Stuxnet Worm Kill India’s INSAT-4B Satellite?

Posted by JEFFREY CARR
------------------------------------------
PRC is becoming like our neighbor to the west, predictable. I speculated in an earlier post last week, that PRC has more to gain than the west from the Stuxnet worm. When originally it was being presented as the west's cyber war on Iran's nuclear facilities.
Question is how long before the world wakes up to this threat? India, will stumble along waiting for Karma to catchup with China. India can afford to wait.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby AKalam » 30 Sep 2010 17:09

Hari Seldon wrote:
But the societies who chose to live in peace with world and others, though they got captured, they never got annihilated and they still continue to exist.


Are you sure? Who then cries for Canaan? Or the Red Indians and the Mayans in the Americas?

Let's not get unrealistic in our idealism. I love the idea of India and believe it's truly exceptional only. However, the sentiment ends there and realism takes over thereafter. The conquerors, given another few centuries would have wiped out the culture and traditions and faith and values native to India. Just look at Pakistan today to get an idea of what happens when that happens. That they couldn't (not wouldn't) is a stroke of luck. Only. Never again! Peace.


The Mule conquered the first Foundation, the powers of which were based on the physical and material, but Seldon created a second Foundation based on psychology and mentalics and that is what Mule wanted to find and destroy.

Once dominant and powerful Buddhism was wiped out in India, first by a resurgent Sanatan Dharma and then finally by the Muslim armies that destroyed the Viharas, where the monks, seats of learning and libraries were concentrated. But Sanatan Dharma survived probably because it was distributed in the villages and in the heart of the people, which were so large in number that they could not be eliminated physically or from the mind of the people, it was beyond any practical resource of the conquerors and their sufi cohorts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... m_in_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of ... m_in_India

I had the opportunity to know the Barua community in Chittagong:

"Barua is the last name of Bengali speaking People who are almost exclusively Buddhist and are concentrated heavily in the Chittagong and nearby hill tracts of Bangladesh, who migrated to Rangoon, Calcutta and many other cities during British Raj as Chefs and restaurant owners. The plain Buddhists of Bangladesh known as the Burua-Buddhist are the ancient peoples of Bangladesh who have lived here for five thousand years according to Arakanese chronology. They insist that they came from the Aryavarta or the country of the Aryans which is practically identical to the country later known as the Majjhimadesh or Madhyadesh in Pali literature [2]."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barua
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barua_%28Bangladesh%29
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... sh-txt.htm
http://www.booksie.com/other/article/ka ... bangladesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Bangladesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atisha

If my reading of history is not mistaken, I thought indigenous Indic power was already resurgent in Maratha and Sikh empires, while the central Mughal power was in decline, when the British took over, so it is probably wrong to suggest that Sanatan Dharma would have been wiped out from the sub-continent and that it was a matter of luck.

Islam is a foreign and alien religion for the sub-continent, no question about it, but would it not be more practical and pragmatic to consider it a part of the Indic existence as it has been here in the subcontinent for centuries and 30% of the Indic population now belong to this group. Indic Muslims also happen to be around 30% of the global Muslim population, collectively the single largest collection of ethnic/regional groups among all Muslims. When it comes to survival in a greater non-Indic world, my hope is that some day Indic population of the sub-continent would eventually find it more useful to band together and face common external threats, regardless of the system of belief they happen to belong to.

While I respect SD, its ancient roots and its value for the Indic civilization, as it is part of Historical Continuity civilizational asset, I also believe that Indic people of the sub-continent and its culture, language and civilization is a common thread that is older than the system of belief that is in fashion at a certain age. So "harmonization" between caste and creed as well, versus "homogenization", could probably be more useful, as I hinted briefly at the Harmonization thread in GDF.

Probably OT as it is not about PRC, but probably relevant to the current discussion.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 01 Oct 2010 01:42

Shankas wrote: PRC is becoming like our neighbor to the west, predictable. I speculated in an earlier post last week, that PRC has more to gain than the west from the Stuxnet worm. When originally it was being presented as the west's cyber war on Iran's nuclear facilities.


So it's the Chinese's fault now? Not only that, you expected it to be the Chinese? And your assumptions are proven correct?

That's a lot of conclusions without any evidence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/30/world/middleeast/30worm.html?_r=1

That use of the word “Myrtus” — which can be read as an allusion to Esther — to name a file inside the code is one of several murky clues that have emerged as computer experts try to trace the origin and purpose of the rogue Stuxnet program, which seeks out a specific kind of command module for industrial equipment.

Not surprisingly, the Israelis are not saying whether Stuxnet has any connection to the secretive cyberwar unit it has built inside Israel’s intelligence service.


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.f6fba55ad8f5e329c0c25bad9aa7b8d3.651&show_article=1

A computer virus dubbed the world's "first cyber superweapon" by experts and which may have been designed to attack Iran's nuclear facilities has found a new target -- China.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Arihant » 01 Oct 2010 03:51

Schizophrenia rampant in China :lol:

China’s aggression and insecurity

by Jeffrey Wasserstrom, Taipei Times

One way to interpret China’s elevated rhetoric — and its tough response to joint US-South Korean military maneuvers — is as another indication that Chinese leaders have grown supremely self-confident and are eager to throw their weight around. The reality, though, is more complex. A closer look reveals that Chinese President Hu Jintao’s (胡錦濤) words and deeds are often shaped by a mixture of insecurity and cockiness and that Chinese officials alternate between playing up and playing down the country’s rise.

Of course, there are moments when China’s leaders do seem like people who know that they are succeeding and want others to acknowledge it. Even before the current diplomatic ­controversies, China’s leaders were gleefully drawing attention to how much more effective their stimulus package had been than Obama’s in countering the negative effects of the financial crisis.

And yet, when news broke last month that China had officially replaced Japan as the world’s second-largest economy, instead of crowing about surpassing a longtime rival and having the top spot, held by the US, in its sights, the government issued statements emphasizing that theirs remains a “poor, developing” country.


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Arihant » 01 Oct 2010 03:54

AKalam wrote:
Are you sure? Who then cries for Canaan? Or the Red Indians and the Mayans in the Americas?

Let's not get unrealistic in our idealism. I love the idea of India and believe it's truly exceptional only. However, the sentiment ends there and realism takes over thereafter. The conquerors, given another few centuries would have wiped out the culture and traditions and faith and values native to India. Just look at Pakistan today to get an idea of what happens when that happens. That they couldn't (not wouldn't) is a stroke of luck. Only. Never again! Peace.


The Mule conquered the first Foundation, the powers of which were based on the physical and material, but Seldon created a second Foundation based on psychology and mentalics and that is what Mule wanted to find and destroy.

Once dominant and powerful Buddhism was wiped out in India, first by a resurgent Sanatan Dharma and then finally by the Muslim armies that destroyed the Viharas, where the monks, seats of learning and libraries were concentrated. But Sanatan Dharma survived probably because it was distributed in the villages and in the heart of the people, which were so large in number that they could not be eliminated physically or from the mind of the people, it was beyond any practical resource of the conquerors and their sufi cohorts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... m_in_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of ... m_in_India

I had the opportunity to know the Barua community in Chittagong:

"Barua is the last name of Bengali speaking People who are almost exclusively Buddhist and are concentrated heavily in the Chittagong and nearby hill tracts of Bangladesh, who migrated to Rangoon, Calcutta and many other cities during British Raj as Chefs and restaurant owners. The plain Buddhists of Bangladesh known as the Burua-Buddhist are the ancient peoples of Bangladesh who have lived here for five thousand years according to Arakanese chronology. They insist that they came from the Aryavarta or the country of the Aryans which is practically identical to the country later known as the Majjhimadesh or Madhyadesh in Pali literature [2]."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barua
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barua_%28Bangladesh%29
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/bud ... sh-txt.htm
http://www.booksie.com/other/article/ka ... bangladesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Bangladesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atisha

If my reading of history is not mistaken, I thought indigenous Indic power was already resurgent in Maratha and Sikh empires, while the central Mughal power was in decline, when the British took over, so it is probably wrong to suggest that Sanatan Dharma would have been wiped out from the sub-continent and that it was a matter of luck.

Islam is a foreign and alien religion for the sub-continent, no question about it, but would it not be more practical and pragmatic to consider it a part of the Indic existence as it has been here in the subcontinent for centuries and 30% of the Indic population now belong to this group. Indic Muslims also happen to be around 30% of the global Muslim population, collectively the single largest collection of ethnic/regional groups among all Muslims. When it comes to survival in a greater non-Indic world, my hope is that some day Indic population of the sub-continent would eventually find it more useful to band together and face common external threats, regardless of the system of belief they happen to belong to.

While I respect SD, its ancient roots and its value for the Indic civilization, as it is part of Historical Continuity civilizational asset, I also believe that Indic people of the sub-continent and its culture, language and civilization is a common thread that is older than the system of belief that is in fashion at a certain age. So "harmonization" between caste and creed as well, versus "homogenization", could probably be more useful, as I hinted briefly at the Harmonization thread in GDF.

Probably OT as it is not about PRC, but probably relevant to the current discussion.


AKalam: Couldn't agree more, while also acknowledging that Indic civilization is in crisis...

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Arihant » 01 Oct 2010 04:00

TonyMontana wrote:
shyam wrote:Post boom PRC is the new Japan before WWII


Cosmo_R wrote:IMHO, it's pure hubris. The PRC/PLA are buying into their own propaganda. Sorta reminds me of Japan 1930s challenging the US for the same reasons: oil, economic choke points IOW, a 'containment'.


Except for the economic entanglement. Access to resources. Population size. Nuclear weapons. Difference in relative military power. And culture.

I wonder if this is the Asian version of Godwin's law.

China is more akin to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, with old scores and historical grievances to redress. The Chinese leadership seem to to be drawing inspiration from the Nazi approach to foreign policy. As the saying goes, those who do not learn from history are condemned to...

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby DavidD » 01 Oct 2010 04:34

Arihant wrote:China is more akin to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, with old scores and historical grievances to redress. The Chinese leadership seem to to be drawing inspiration from the Nazi approach to foreign policy. As the saying goes, those who do not learn from history are condemned to...


So what you're saying is that as long as it doesn't invade Russia or ally with a nation who bombs the U.S., then it's free to conquer the rest of Asia within 10 years? :twisted:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Arihant » 01 Oct 2010 04:50

DavidD wrote:
Arihant wrote:China is more akin to Nazi Germany in the 1930s, with old scores and historical grievances to redress. The Chinese leadership seem to to be drawing inspiration from the Nazi approach to foreign policy. As the saying goes, those who do not learn from history are condemned to...


So what you're saying is that as long as it doesn't invade Russia or ally with a nation who bombs the U.S., then it's free to conquer the rest of Asia within 10 years? :twisted:

So you're saying that it wants to conquer the rest of Asia within 10 years? :rotfl:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Juggi G » 01 Oct 2010 18:51

Beijing Spreads it Wings, Casts a Shadow Over Asia
DNA
Beijing Spreads it Wings, Casts a Shadow Over Asia
Brahma Chellaney
Friday, October 1, 2010 2:58 IST

Japan may have created the impression of having buckled under China’s pressure by releasing the Chinese fishing trawler captain.

But the Japanese action moves the spotlight back to China, whose rapidly accumulating power has emboldened it to aggressively assert territorial and maritime claims against its neighbours, from Japan to India.

China’s new stridency in its disputes with its neighbours has helped highlight Asia’s central challenge to come to terms with existing boundaries by getting rid of the baggage of history that weighs down a number of interstate relationships. Even as Asia is becoming more interdependent economically, it is getting more divided politically.

While the bloody wars in the first half of the 20th century have made war unthinkable today in Europe, the wars in Asia in the second half of the 20th century did not resolve matters and have only accentuated bitter rivalries.

A number of interstate wars were fought in Asia since 1950, the year both the Korean War and the annexation of Tibet started. Those wars, far from settling or ending disputes, have only kept disputes lingering.

China, significantly, has been involved in the largest number of military conflicts. A recent Pentagon report has cited examples of how China carried out military pre-emption in 1950, 1962, 1969 and 1979 in the name of strategic defence. The seizure of Paracel Islands from Vietnam in 1974 by Chinese forces was another example of offense as defense.

All these cases of pre-emption occurred when China was weak, poor and internally torn. So today, China’s growing power naturally raises legitimate concerns.

A stronger, more prosperous China is already beginning to pursue a more muscular foreign policy vis-à-vis its neighbours, as underlined by several developments this year alone — from its inclusion of the South China Sea in its “core” national interests — an action that makes its claims to the disputed Spratly Islands non-negotiable, to its presentation of the Yellow Sea as some sort of an exclusive Chinese military-operations zone where it wants the US and South Korea not to hold joint naval exercises.

China also has become more insistent in pressing its territorial claims to the Japanese-controlled Senkaku Islands, with Chinese warships making more frequent forays into Japanese waters. Add to the picture China’s three separate large-scale naval exercises since April.

In Tibet, the official PLA Daily has reported several new significant military developments in recent months, including the first-ever major parachute exercise to demonstrate a capability to rapidly insert troops on the world’s highest plateau and an exercise involving “third generation” fighter-jets carrying live ammunition. In addition, the railroad to Tibet, the world’s highest elevated railway, has now started being used to supply “combat readiness materials for the Air Force” there. These military developments have to be seen in the context of China’s resurrection since 2006 of its long-dormant claim to India’s northeastern Arunachal Pradesh state and its recent attempts to question Indian sovereignty over the state of Jammu and Kashmir, one-fifth of which it occupies.

Against that background, China’s increasingly assertive territorial and maritime claims threaten Asian peace and stability. In fact, the largest real estate China covets is not in the South or East China Seas but in India: Arunachal Pradesh is almost three times larger than Taiwan.

Respect for boundaries is a prerequisite to peace and stability on any continent. Europe has built its peace on that principle, with a number of European states learning to live with boundaries they do not like.

Efforts at the redrawing of territorial and maritime frontiers are an invitation to endemic conflicts in Asia. Through its refusal to accept the territorial status quo, Beijing only highlights the futility of political negotiations.

After all, a major redrawing of frontiers has never happened at the negotiating table. Such redrawing can only be achieved on the battlefield, as Beijing has done in the past.

Today, whether it is Arunachal Pradesh or Taiwan or the Senkaku Islands, or even the Spratlys, China is dangling the threat to use force to assert its claims. In doing so, China has helped reinforce the spectre of a China threat. By picking territorial fights with its neighbours, China also is threatening Asia’s continued economic renaissance.

More significantly, China is showing that it is not a credible candidate to lead Asia. Leadership flows not from raw power but from other states’ consent or tacit acceptance.

It is important for other Asian states and the rest of the international community to convey a clear message to Beijing: After six long decades, China’s redrawing of frontiers must now come to an end.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Arihant » 01 Oct 2010 20:12

The Dragon & the Elephant: Five myths about China versus India
by John Lee, Centre for Independent Studies, Australia

Myth 1: China's authoritarian system sacrifices rights for social order

In fact, there is far more chaos and unrest in China than there is in India. According to the latest available official figures, there were 124,000 instances of ‘mass unrest’ (defined as 15 or more people protesting against officials) in 2008 in China. India has fewer than 5,000 such instances. Beijing spends more on 'internal security,' which does not include the normal police forces, than it does on the People’s Liberation Army.

Myth 2: India enjoys more freedom but at the price of economic inequality

In fact, using the commonly accepted standard of the GINI coefficient, China's score is around 0.55–0.60, while India's is around 0.33–0.36 ('0' is perfect income equality and '1' is perfect income inequality. This makes China the most unequal society in all of Asia and the trend is worsening.

Myth 3: Given China's spectacular rise, its private sector multinationals are due to dominate Asia, and then the world

True, there are 34 Chinese companies in the Fortune 500 list – all state-controlled except for one – compared to India's eight. Size is one thing. But by 'return on assets' (to measure profitability) and 'number of patents filed' (to assess innovation), Indian firms do significantly better. Tellingly, the Indian firms spend about 5% of revenues on R&D on average while Chinese firms spend about 1% of revenue.

Myth 4: China is leaving India behind in the urbanisation stakes

China is definitely ahead of India: about 48% versus 35%. But the rate of urbanisation in India is actually neck-and-neck with China at about 1.5% per year.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby chackojoseph » 01 Oct 2010 21:46


Shankas
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Shankas » 02 Oct 2010 00:25



I hope for China's sake these are female aliens looking for Princelings :wink:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 02 Oct 2010 05:30

War Games to Check China

Excellent article.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby pgbhat » 02 Oct 2010 07:40

^Interesting indeed.
Cabinet secretariat==Intel afsar. 8)


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Rony » 02 Oct 2010 22:33

Rong Ying of China Institute of International Studies on China - India Relations giving the Chinese perspective on the issue.

Dr. Rong has recently co-edited two books: A Bluebook on International Situation and China’s Foreign Affairs and India’s Rise and the China-India Relations.

The video lecture is from the University of Southern California's US - China Institute !

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Ameet » 02 Oct 2010 22:57

Top favorite for Nobel Peace Prize is held in Chinese prison

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_china_nob ... e_favorite

When the police came for Liu Xiaobo on a December night nearly two years ago, they didn't tell the dissident author why he was being taken away again. The line in the detention order for his "suspected crime" was left blank.

But Liu and the dozen officers who crowded into his dark Beijing apartment knew the reason. He was hours from releasing Charter 08, the China democracy movement's most comprehensive call yet for peaceful reform. The document would be viewed by the ruling Communist Party as a direct challenge to its 60-year monopoly on political power.

Liu was sentenced last Christmas Day to 11 years in prison for subversion. The 54-year old literary critic is now a favorite to win the Nobel Peace Prize — in what would be a major embarrassment to the Chinese government.

In an indication of Beijing's unease, China's deputy foreign minister has warned the Nobel Institute not to give the prize to a Chinese dissident, the director of the Norway-based institute said this week. In another sign of official disapproval, an editorial on Thursday in the state-run Global Times newspaper called Liu a radical and separatist.

In China, police continue to threaten and question some of the more than 300 people who were the first to sign Charter 08, which was co-authored by Liu. Despite the risk, thousands more have signed it since its release.

Charter 08 is an echo of Charter 77, the famous call for human rights in then-Czechoslovakia that led to the 1989 Velvet Revolution that swept away the communist regime. The charter for China calls for more freedoms and an end to the Communist Party's political dominance. "The democratization of Chinese politics can be put off no longer," it says.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Raghavendra » 03 Oct 2010 12:18


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Chinmayanand » 03 Oct 2010 14:43

A half-pike up the nostril

China’s overreaction to a Japanese “provocation” has set its regional diplomacy back years

To list some of the effects of China’s fierce—almost bellicose—reaction: forcing America to confirm that its security treaty with Japan covers conflict over the disputed islands; concentrating Japanese minds on seeking other sources of raw materials such as rare earths; and pushing South-East Asian countries closer to America. As China’s own officials might say: it picked up a rock only to drop it on its own feet.

Japanese officials see this in terms of the growing clout of China’s armed forces, a power struggle ahead of the transfer of leadership to a new generation at the next Communist Party congress in 2012 and the search for something (such as nationalism) that might give the party a new source of legitimacy. But perhaps such rationalisations miss the point. The second time Gulliver wakes up in Lilliput, it is after passing out, having drunk wine laced with a sleeping-draught. A curious Lilliputian, inspecting his comatose form, puts the sharp end of his half-pike a good way up his nostril. It tickles. Gulliver sneezes violently. Sometimes, awakening giants simply can’t help themselves—which was of scant comfort to the Lilliputians.

Image

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 03 Oct 2010 18:40

Rony wrote:Rong Ying of China Institute of International Studies on China - India Relations giving the Chinese perspective on the issue.

Dr. Rong has recently co-edited two books: A Bluebook on International Situation and China’s Foreign Affairs and India’s Rise and the China-India Relations.

The video lecture is from the University of Southern California's US - China Institute !


The table lists China's population as 1.34 billion and India's as 1.40 billion :shock:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Naidu » 03 Oct 2010 20:43

To summarize Rong Ying's talk (covering India-China relations from 1947-49 to current):

-3 Main Phases of relationship: Bhai-Bhai till 1959; followed by bye-bye till 1990s; currently buy-buy.
-Boundary disputes remain, but good relations between India and China important for overall stability of region and world.
-There is more interest now in China about this aspect then there was even 10 years ago.
-And then, he concluded with a lot of India==Pakistan and China==USA.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby svinayak » 03 Oct 2010 20:51

Naidu wrote:
-And then, he concluded with a lot of India==Pakistan and China==USA.

This is India==Pakistan in any discussion of global India China and other discussion has become a norm.
There is no real connection to many things which India does.


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