People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby naren » 24 Oct 2010 10:57



His Holiness the Dalai Lama at Miami University
Image

Oxford, Ohio, USA, 21 October 2010 - On October 21, 2010, His Holiness the Dalai Lama received an honorary degree, an international leadership award, and gave a major public talk to 10,000 people in Miami University, located in Oxford in the state of Ohio.


Such spinelessness displayed by the MEA !

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby csharma » 24 Oct 2010 13:23

Chinese workers teach India how to build a steel plant in 18 months. Something to learn from China and this will help India.

Chinese workers fuel India's staggering infrastructure boom

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03956.html

Perched precariously on scaffolding, several Chinese workers showed Indian laborers how to weld the shell of a blast stove at a steel plant construction. Step by step, the Indians absorbed the valuable skills needed to build a large, integrated factory from scratch in record time.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby abhishek_sharma » 24 Oct 2010 13:43


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Raghavendra » 24 Oct 2010 13:45

^ FAST is not always good http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 434728.cms

Chhattisgarh police on Monday arrested three Chinese engineers in connection with the collapse of the 240-metre under-construction chimney of metal major Bharat Aluminium Company (Balco) in Korba district on September 23 last year. Around 300 labourers were working when the chimney collapsed, killing 41 people at the site 225 km from Raipur.

In its report, NIT claimed that mishap was caused due to the use of sub-standard construction material, lack of supervision, inadequate curing time and poor soil testing. It cited parameters which did not meet the Indian Standard Code and faulty technical design among other lapses. With Monday's arrest, the total number of persons nabbed for the Balco chimney collapse is seven.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Raghavendra » 24 Oct 2010 20:25

Taiwan-China name row erupts at Tokyo film festival http://www.zeenews.com/news663477.html

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 25 Oct 2010 04:46

India not to join global chorus on yuan appreciation
India, mindful of its import dependency, is unlikely to join the global rhetoric urging China to let its currency appreciate. India depends on cheap project imports from China to jump-start its big-ticket infrastructure projects, especially in power.

Disclosing this ahead of a meeting scheduled between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chinese premier Wen Jiabao, a source said the currency issue would have to be dealt within the larger context of growth. “We don’t want drastic solutions that would imperil growth,” he said.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby khan » 25 Oct 2010 07:17


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Oct 2010 07:29

Yeah but their work avoidance ethic is marvelous.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 25 Oct 2010 07:42

khan wrote:The work ethic in India sucks...


Well this is OT. The work ethic in India (for construction workers) certainly sucks and I have posted that before in topics that generally go inside the hijab forum that I rarely visit. India has a body of extremely poor and illiterate people who will work as low cost daily wage laborers with women and babies living (and of course eating and defecating) on site. I do not have to step out more than 200 meters from the well developed area that I live in to provide a photographic example of this.

"Work ethic" is related to employer ethic. You gets what you pays for. if you pay crap you get only dung beetles. So we have low skilled people who migrate with family to the city in the dry season and disappear for days or weeks without account when the monsoons arrive or for festivals.

When you import Chinese laborers you are importing people who are paid well. They are either given family accommodation of their families are looked after in China. All in all I see this as an extremely good thing. Workers cannot get better until Indian employers (and society) have a change of qibla. May more and more Chinese workers be employed in India. I welcome it. I hope that will make a change for the better in india and make it respectable for people to be laborers rather than as exploitable human capital.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 25 Oct 2010 08:29

New Delhi & Beijing keen on resuming defence ties.
There is no point in resuming these ties without resolution of the Lt. Gen. Jaswal issue.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Pratyush » 25 Oct 2010 10:10

The question is why have defence ties with your no 1 competitor in the first place?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Philip » 25 Oct 2010 10:44

In handling China's aggro of recent times,we must not lose our cool.A cool head in dealing with this pestilential neighbour is required for the Chinese think not in years or decades but centuries,as we used to think aeons ago,in yugas!

I suggest the following methods.The MEA has just annonced that Chinese firms operating in POK will nto be given contracts in India.A good first step.

1.Ban Chinese nationals from entering India if they have residence in Tibet,since the PRC are refusing/issuing chit visas to our nationals resident in J&K,AP,etc.A ban on all PRC military men from visiting India and a ban on all military exchanges with China until

2.Show Tibet on Indian maps as an Independent country.Same colour to be used as for India!

3.Ban all Chinese companies from doign busines with India which have security implications,like teelcom companies,mobile phones,computer firms-in fact any PRC firm in the IT industry.

4.Impose extra customs duty on all Chinese goods imported.Ban on all Chinese toys and cheap goods that use hazardous chemicals in their manufacture.

5.Only Chinese nationals who are drawing a salary of 10 lakhs pm or more to be allowed to work in India.

6.Allow the Tibetan govt. in exile and the Taiwanese to open independent offices in Delhi's diplomatic zone.A forerunner to granting them full recognition if need be.

7.Regular annual military exercises to be held with PRC neighbours,as we are going to do with Japan (naval ex.),also with SoKo,Vietnam,and visits of India warships to Taiwan.

8.Establish 3 strike corps on the nothern borders.One for the N-east,one for the border with Nepal/Bhutan-as China will foment disr-turbances there to quickly intervent sending their troops to take over the country.India must be prepared to checkmate any such intention by force.The third for Aksai Chin and the NWestern sector.This will be meant to strike into POK if ned be if the PLAN moves any of its troops there in a crisis with Pak.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby pgbhat » 26 Oct 2010 07:30

Chinese companies 'rent' white foreigners
For a day, a weekend, a week, up to even a month or two, Chinese companies are willing to pay high prices for fair-faced foreigners to join them as fake employees or business partners.
:rotfl:


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 27 Oct 2010 07:28

Cross post
TonyMontana wrote:Boundaries are a fluid concept. Xinjiang, directly translated, means "new territory". Tibet, in chinese, means "western territory". In, oh I don't know, say 200 years, when Tibet is 92% Han Chinese living in enhanced oxygen cities, who are you to say that it is not China? How about 400 years? Like I said, if you go back far enough, the Han only has a few river villiages. Where do you draw the line?


I draw the line at where there is water and oxygen. And that too only as long as I am alive. I plan to be dead within 50 years.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 27 Oct 2010 07:48

May I suggest the creation of a "reference map of China" (and Pakistan for that matter). The reference map should have Tibet marked as occupied territory and in a different color. The map should be of a size that is visible without screwing up forum format and placed for "ready reference" on page 1 of the China news thread (A Paki version for Pakiland can go in the Paki thread). Those of us who have accounts with image hosting sites can upload the same image for sharing and using wherever necessary.

I suggest that the map have major cities and provinces marked. Use some Chinese source (or open source) for the map because china is not too worried about intellectual property or any property for that matter. Only the west gets its knickers in a twist over IPR.

Here is a map that can be used

Just edit out the Chinese characters and replace with language of your choice...
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... _zh-cn.svg

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 27 Oct 2010 08:05


I saw in one of the Indian news channels a couple of days back that India is retaliating by blacklisting those Chinese companies which are involved in projects in PoK.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 27 Oct 2010 08:16

shiv wrote:I draw the line at where there is water and oxygen. And that too only as long as I am alive. I plan to be dead within 50 years.


I don't get the reference. Is it a "earth and water" reference from 300?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby abhishek_sharma » 27 Oct 2010 08:27

SSridhar wrote:

I saw in one of the Indian news channels a couple of days back that India is retaliating by blacklisting those Chinese companies which are involved in projects in PoK.


Can't we do something similar for people from Tibet? I would love that.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 27 Oct 2010 08:29

TonyMontana wrote:
shiv wrote:I draw the line at where there is water and oxygen. And that too only as long as I am alive. I plan to be dead within 50 years.


I don't get the reference. Is it a "earth and water" reference from 300?


It's not important but since you ask: This was a response to
viewtopic.php?p=968518#p968518
TonyMontana wrote:
shiv wrote:I guess no such problem exists for those areas that are traditional Han areas within the boundaries of the Han civilization. So the big challenge that the Chinese like to try is unification by occupation. That is what everyone else is saying. Han Chinese are trying to occupy and retain Tibet but are calling this "unification" of China. No disagreement here.
But then Tibet is an "occupied land". It is hardly China as is claimed. You have yourself said:
The people who are being moved into Tibat are "Chinese". Not Tibetans. That means the Chinese are coming from somewhere. That "somewhere" is from within the boundaries of the Han civilization to Tibet which is outside the boundaries of the Han civilization. Tibet is Chinese occupied land. Not China. No dispute with that is there?


Boundaries are a fluid concept. Xinjiang, directly translated, means "new territory". Tibet, in chinese, means "western territory". In, oh I don't know, say 200 years, when Tibet is 92% Han Chinese living in enhanced oxygen cities, who are you to say that it is not China? How about 400 years? Like I said, if you go back far enough, the Han only has a few river villiages. Where do you draw the line?



I am not sure if the Han Chinese appeared 5000 years ago in some village, but I have always been taught that humans emerged as a species perhaps 4 million years ago. Going by Jared Diamond (and a few others) humans spread around the globe in the last 40-50,000 years. OK lets say 10,000 years for convenience. In 10,000 years these stupid humans spread all over but could not survive in large numbers in certain places. Those "certain places" coincidentally are short of water, or short of air, very cold or very hot or a combination of these.

If you look back at history - just "draw a line" 200 years ago - you find that a small Island off Europe went and occupied most of the world including all the warm and fertile parts. Are you telling me that all that the Chinese managed to do in these 5000 years was occupy Xinjiang? That is laughable. I think Xinjiang has more oxygen than Tibet. And now the Chinese want to "be safe rather than sorry" and occupy Tibet. Sir - you have a sense of humor. Even the Tibetans evolved a gene to survive in Tibet 5000 years ago. That is 4 million years after humans evolved. So you Chinese are planning oxygen enriched cities for 4 million more years? I thought if you took 5000 years to occupy Xinjiang you will need another 5000 to occupy Tibet. But you seem to be looking at 4 million years. I wish you luck.

Don't you think the Chinese would be better off on boats? Build huge floating cities in the ocean? Why go 5 kilometers up towards the stratosphere inside Tibet and build "oxygen enriched cities". Just go to sea. There's food there and no shortage of oxygen at sea level. Chinese cuisine will have greater variety than Yaks. Please. I did not want to insult you by laughing at what you claim the Chinese are doing but this is a real ROTFL.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 27 Oct 2010 08:57

shiv wrote:

If you look back at history - just "draw a line" 200 years ago - you find that a small Island off Europe went and occupied most of the world including all the warm and fertile parts. Are you telling me that all that the Chinese managed to do in these 5000 years was occupy Xinjiang? That is laughable. I think Xinjiang has more oxygen than Tibet. And now the Chinese want to "be safe rather than sorry" and occupy Tibet. Sir - you have a sense of humor. Even the Tibetans evolved a gene to survive in Tibet 5000 years ago. That is 4 million years after humans evolved. So you Chinese are planning oxygen enriched cities for 4 million more years? I thought if you took 5000 years to occupy Xinjiang you will need another 5000 to occupy Tibet. But you seem to be looking at 4 million years. I wish you luck.


So you're saying the Chinese are genetically incapable of colonising Tibet? The last couple of decades proves you wrong. Like central heating and air con. Sure you could live in the heat/cold. Or you could make your life easier. I never said Chinese are good colonisers. In a dharmic sense, isn't that a good thing?

shiv wrote:
Don't you think the Chinese would be better off on boats? Build huge floating cities in the ocean? Why go 5 kilometers up towards the stratosphere inside Tibet and build "oxygen enriched cities". Just go to sea. There's food there and no shortage of oxygen at sea level. Chinese cuisine will have greater variety than Yaks. Please. I did not want to insult you by laughing at what you claim the Chinese are doing but this is a real ROTFL.


Chinese don't need enhanced oxygen to survive in Tibet. Just like we don't need air con in our cities too. But darn it. It's nice when you step inside. Even if a Chinese person couldn't live long term in Tibet, we can rotate population so the Chinese population density in Tibet could retain at 92%. And as Maoris would prove. If you live in a minority country long enough, you might just share some of those nice high altitude genes with the Chinese. Who knows, maybe after a few generations Tibetan Chinese will have those genes too. Insallah.

I claim that China will colonise Tibet. You laugh at the suggestion. That is your prerogative. History will be the final judge.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 27 Oct 2010 10:03

Tony-ji while we wait for history to be written let me make some corrections to your post or at least seek clarification. Han Chinese are human like everyone else unless you dispute that. I am not claiming that the Chinese cannot colonize Tibet. All I am saying is that all humans (including Han Chinese - subject to your approval) find it difficult to support huge populations in hostile geographic regions. That means Tibet. Even after evolving genes to breathe better in Tibet the Tibetans could not proliferate and increase their population like their neighbors the Chinese and Indians did. That is because food and fuel are also in short supply.

So the Chinese will ship in food and fuel for the Han occupiers of Tibet. I welcome this humanitarian thought. Can't allow people to starve can we - even if they are Chinese. I would love to watch China ship in all the food and fuel to support a population of say 50 million in Tibet, all housed in oxygen enriched cities. History will surely be made because for 4 million years humans have lived where they can get oxygen, water and food and now the Chinese want to choose a place without oxygen or food to live in "as a challenge". I love it! I am all for it.

Imagine the resources to feed and support that population. These resources will be coming from the Han motherland because Tibet won't be producing food. And what will the Han people get in return? Uranium of course. Lots of Uranium in Tibet. How many Uranium mines will China have? How many other mines? Maybe 1000 mines will pockmark Tibet. Lovely. Assume 10,000 people to work in the mines and support staff. That's 10 million Han Chinese employed in the mines of Tibet. Working in Tibet is inefficient. Even Chinese soldiers are using oxygen bottles for patrolling. So miners will need that. And of course a whole lot of firefighting equipment because oxygen enriched dwellings are prone to fire hazards. Good for the oxygen bottling industry and the fire fighting equipment industry. And give these 10 million people families and support and all and you get 50 million.

One of the requirements of mining is shipping and transport. If the mine is next to a sea-port or railway track that is ideal. But in Tibet, existing and new railway lines will be used. Currently there is one line. The geography of Tibet may allow two more. I will assume 3 train lines. Currently 2 million tons per year of goods are carried to and from Tibet by train on a single track. That is for a population of 2.5 million. For 50 million people you will need 40 million tons a year. Probably more once people start living in O2 enriched cities. Say 100 million tons a year

One freight train weighs 10,000 tons but diesel locomotives are less efficient in Tibet and I will assume 5000 tons per train. That means 20,000 trains per year for supplies alone. Double that figure if you are taking out 100 million tons of ore a year from your Tibetan mines. You will need 36 trains per day (one train to Tibet every 40 minutes) on 3 tracks to and from Tibet. Add marshalling yards etc and we are looking at figures that start looking even ridiculous. And that is for a mere 50 million people in Tibet. Just 4% of your population.

I waiting and watching with fascination. Gives me something to do while I wait to kick the bucket within 50 years. :D

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 27 Oct 2010 10:10

TonyMontana wrote:Chinese don't need enhanced oxygen to survive in Tibet.


Oh of course. Of course. No problem. No need for enhanced oxygen cities then? I am sure the Chinese don't need enhanced oxygen for survival. It's only when you want them to do something active - like mining or walking that they may ask for more oxygen.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Gus » 27 Oct 2010 10:45

Shiv, if you haven't read this already, i strongly recommend 'murder in the high himalayas'. If you have seen that utube video of Tibetan refugee shot dead by chinese border force, this book is about that poor Tibetan women who died for just wanting to see the HHDL.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 27 Oct 2010 16:20

Is PRC being blamed unfairly for Renminbi's lack of strength ?
Surprisingly, its record has not been as bad. This is brought home succinctly in a recent Bank of International Settlements (BIS) paper (‘The evolving renminbi regime and implications for Asian currency stability', by Guonan Ma and Robert N McCauley, http://www.bis.org/publ/work321.htm) on how it has managed its exchange rate policy.

What stopped this process was the financial crisis of 2008 that was triggered by the cowboys of Wall Street. So like other countries, China did what it thought was in its best interest. It interrupted the experiment and the renminbi halted appreciating at 6.8/dollar.

Then the US, which was responsible for the crisis — which has nothing to do with trade — started grumbling that China was refusing to appreciate its currency and that this was creating a problem for everyone — by which it really meant the US.

The wolf pack of politicians and economists then joined in and China was threatened that if it did not revalue the renminbi, the US would devalue the dollar. Since China foolishly holds around $2.5 trillion in reserves, it took fright and once again started to appreciate its currency, which is now up to 6/dollar.

But there is no satisfying the Americans who want it down to at least four, by yesterday. So two weeks ago, the US announced that it would print even more dollars than it has over the last two years. Its Treasury Secretary, Tim Geithner even suggested that countries adopt a ceiling for their trade surpluses as a percentage of their GDP, not unlike the one for the fiscal deficit.

In other words, he wanted voluntary restraints of the type forced on Japanese carmakers in the mid-1980s. But he found no takers and the idea has been consigned to where it belongs, the dustbin.

That done, the question still remains: What is China being blamed for?

Ma and McKauly who have examined the data with frightening thoroughness, say that the conventional wisdom is wrong. Their argument is persuasive.

We should not judge China's exchange rate policy by what it has done in the two years since the financial crisis began. We must look at what it did after it decided to un-hitch the yuan from the dollar.

“Despite the still narrow range of daily fluctuation of the bilateral RMB/dollar rate, the RMB behaved in this two-year period as if it were managed to appreciate gradually over time against its trade-weighted basket of currencies,” they write.

In another place they say “the RMB crawled upward against its trading partners' currencies at a moderate rate (2 per cent per annum) and within narrow (+/- 2 per cent) bands.”

From this they conclude that the Chinese authorities “are prepared for the announced return to a managed float in reference to a basket of currencies in mid-2010. A return to the basket management of the RMB could also assist China's ongoing efforts to denominate its foreign assets in the RMB.”

Does an undervalued yuan help India or hurt it? Most economists I have spoken to, or corresponded with, say it hurts India.

But they start humming and hawing when I point out that a cheap yuan also means cheap imports of things that India needs but does not produce in adequate quantities — power equipment, for example, or chemicals.

Without these things how would India keep its growth rate up? But such is the power of American persuasion that only very few agree.

When the Prime Minister attends the G-20 Summit in Seoul next month, he will have to maintain a careful balance between Indian and American interests.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Pranav » 27 Oct 2010 18:36

China gets an ashram near Beijing
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 851154.ece

On Monday, the People’s Republic of China got its first ashram.

Located a two-hour drive away from here and nestled amid the industrial suburbs of this fast-expanding metropolis, the 165-acre retreat for yoga and meditation was opened by Sri Sri Ravishankar’s Art of Living foundation. Billing itself as the first authentic Indian retreat in a country where spirituality is on the rise, the ashram will offer a range of courses.

“There is a yearning for spiritual thought in today’s China, and this centre will provide people [with] a path to have cleaner, calmer and happier lives,” Sri Sri Ravishankar told The Hindu.

This is his first visit to China. On Monday, he interacted with religious leaders as well as officials of the Communist Party, who had given sanction for the project. The centre will accommodate 160 students at a time. The teachers, who are from all over China, had undergone training in India.

On Sunday, the centre held a ceremony with dance performances and lectures. It was attended by around 500 people. The organisers said they could have received a greater audience “of more than 3,000,” but doing so would have required a special permission from the local authorities.

Interaction

Most of the questions from the Chinese audience in an interaction with Sri Sri Ravishankar on Sunday revolved round how people could deal with the stress of modern life and preserving family values in a society that is being increasingly influenced by Western ideas.

Among those who attended was Man Hu, a middle-aged entrepreneur from Shanghai, who runs a manufacturing plant. “Like everyone else in today’s China, I am under great stress and looking for a way to manage by life in a better way and find some purpose,” she said.

Those connected with the project said they were surprised by the positive response from the authorities, who are usually careful about allowing foreign institutions, particularly those with spiritual leanings, to spread their word in China.

On Monday, Sri Sri Ravishankar met with Chen Haosu, a former vice-minister in the Propaganda Department and the president of the Chinese People’s Association for Friendship with Foreign Countries (CPAFFC), which invited him to China. “India and China are naturally close, in culture, family values, music and dance,” he told Mr. Chen. “The East has a lot to offer to the world to counter the stress and ills of society that the West is facing.”

“Great expectations”

Mr. Chen said he had “great expectations” of the visit. “We hope this will bring happiness to people. Chinese people have an enthusiasm and passion for Indian culture. In the past 30 years, we have seen fast development of the Chinese economy. Now, people will also require more spiritual activities.”

Sri Sri Ravishankar said the centre would look to engage with the Chinese civil society, and even involve itself, as it has in the United States, Canada and Germany where it has centres, in environmental campaigns such as tree-planting drives. It is also in talks with the local police here to involve itself in a drug rehabilitation programme.

As Sri Sri Ravishankar left Monday’s meeting with Chinese officials, he was surprised by a gift he did not quite expect, and one that was at odds with the message of peace he was looking to bring to China — a bamboo panel with engravings from Sun Tzu’s Art of War.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 28 Oct 2010 02:32

shiv wrote:I waiting and watching with fascination. Gives me something to do while I wait to kick the bucket within 50 years. :D


Interesting analysis. I can't help but agree with you. I now have the opinion that it is indeed hard to try to "out-populate" Tibetans with Chinese. So you are correct, Tibet could only support a certain number of population. So what options does that leave China? Of the top of my head, the first thing I thought of is population displacement. If we can't change the demography by moving people in, we can move people out. Maybe China should move tibetan population in Tibet, by reward and/or coersion to surrounding Chinese provinces, where they will be the minority. That way we can still maintain the 90%+ Chinese in Tibet, while remain under the critical population threashold.

shiv wrote: It's only when you want them to do something active - like mining or walking that they may ask for more oxygen.


Well, the active stuff can still be done with Tibetans. Look back at the last few decades. Fact. Chinese lived in Tibet. Proof of concept.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 28 Oct 2010 03:20

TonyMontana ji appears to have a death-wish for the Chinese civilization! :D He is suggesting everything that will ensure a genocidic backlash on the supposed "homogeneous" "Han". No lesson in history seems to be relevant - none at all. Only sad part is that perhaps the costs will be paid by the common plains Chinese for the misdeeds of their Communist and PLA leadership and functionaries - as they paid the prices of their emperor's and mandarin's ambitions.

It is almost a self-fulfilling prophecy to suggest moving Tibetans around to dilute Tibetan-density and maintain Chinese control to try and prevent launching of attacks on the plains. That attempt at dilution will be one sure fire way of inviting that very consequence supposedly sought to be avoided.

I would be glad if PRC tries this out - really!

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 28 Oct 2010 03:30

http://www.falunhr.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1820&Itemid=
2010 UN Report Highlights
Falun Gong Persecution in China

U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture, Mr. Manfred Nowak, met with a group of Falun Gong practitioners during the UN Human Rights Council's 13th Session, among them are Mei Xuan (first left), Ziyi Fang(second left) and Huimin Wang(third left). They were jailed and tortured in China because of their belief in Falun Gong

As in previous years, allegations of severe human rights violations in China were a significant component in reports presented at the 13th Session of the UN Human Rights Council, held in Geneva from March 1-26th.
[...]
The persecution of Chinese lawyers was mentioned in several reports. Some lawyers were jailed for legally defending Falun Gong practitioners. On March 31, 2009, Ms. Sekaggya sent an urgent appeal, together with two other Rapporteurs, requesting information about Wei Liangyue, director of the Harbin-based Jiaodian Law Firm, and his wife, Du Yongjing. For over 20 years Mr. Wei provided legal aid to local people facing human rights violations, including Falun Gong practitioners who had been detained for their belief. According to information received, Mr. Wei and his wife were detained by authorities in February, 2009. It is feared that they have been psychologically and physically abused while in custody. "Both were reportedly warned by the authorities not to discuss the case publicly and not to hire a lawyer to represent them", the report stated.

Another human rights lawyer, Zhang Kai, "...was hung up with handcuffs in an iron cage" while in police custody. Before Zhang Kai and his colleague Li Chunfu were even arrested, at the home of their client - the family of deceased Falun Gong practitioner Jiang Xiqing - police officers "began pulling their hair, twisting their arms and beating them while pinning them on the ground". Ms. Sekaggya wrote that, according to the received information, during their interrogation they were both threatened not to represent any Falun Gong defendant. After being released, "their hands were covered with bruises and scars; Zhang Kai's hands were also numb and swollen and Li Chunfu had troubled hearing in one ear."

Mr. Nowak gave a similarly troubling portrayal of the violence China's security forces have visited on innocents, including "16 deaths of Falun Gong practitioners due to injuries allegedly sustained in custody in China." Mr. Nowak requested an explanation for the deaths, along with other cases of harassment, beatings, and torture from Chinese authorities. The 16 Falun Gong practitioners are: Hu Yanrong, Huang Fajun, Xiong Zhengming, Bai Heguo, Zong Xiuxia, Yu Zhou, Gu Jianmin, Gu Qun, Fan Dezhen, Liu Quan, Wu Xinming, Chen Yumei, Zhong Zhenfu, Yang Jingfen, Sun Aimei, and Hou Lihua.

Nowak's report included the cases of Zhou Xiangyang and Wang Yonghang. Mr. Zhou was sentenced to 9 years in prison in May, 2003. It is alleged that in prison he was brutally tortured for refusing to give up his belief in Falun Gong. He was then told that he would have to renounce his belief before being eligible for medical treatment. Mr. Wang Yonghang, a former lawyer from Dalian City, Liaoning Province, was reportedly beaten severely, resulting in a broken right ankle. In other reported cases victims were tortured to the point of death, put into solitary confinement for months or sent to forced labor camps for years because of their Falun Gong-related peaceful activities or beliefs.

Nowak wrote in his report, "China maintains the most institutionalized method of opposing political dissents that I have encountered. Political dissidents and human rights defenders, ethnic groups that are often suspected of separation (particularly Tibetans and Uyghurs), as well as spiritual groups such as Falun Gong are often accused of political crimes such as endangering national security through undermining the unity of the country, subversion or unlawfully supplying State secrets to individuals outside the country. Such individuals are not only at a high risk of torture when arrested, but the Reeducation Through Labor (RTL) Regime that is often used as a sentence for political crimes employs measures of coercion, humiliation and punishment aimed at altering the personality of detainees up to the point of breaking their will."

Recounting experiences from his fact-finding mission to China, Nowak stated, "In China, many detainees were simply too scared to engage in any conversation with me, even if it was of a rather general nature and did not refer to any compromising issues. The mere fact that they could possibly be perceived to have complained to the UN Special Rapporteur was a risk which many legitimately did not want to take on them. Other, more daring detainees agreed to talk to me only after I assured them confidentiality and not to include their accounts in the appendix on individual cases in my report. The possibility of reprisals against those who I interviewed strongly influenced the conduct of my fact-finding."


This was part of other material forwarded to me by a "dissident" and I am not quoting the other parts to protect the source. This footnote is for TonyMontana ji - who appears to talk of the homogeneous Han/Chinese identity that solidly desires the CPC and PLA to continue.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 28 Oct 2010 03:31

brihaspati wrote: That attempt at dilution will be one sure fire way of inviting that very consequence supposedly sought to be avoided.


I don't get this. Are you using the Islamic example? Where having muslim population within your society causes terror attacks? How does diluting the Tibetan population within China invites genocidic backlash? Please enlighten me.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 28 Oct 2010 03:35

If you have any way of passing on this desire to the PRC gov, please do encourage them to do a Tibetan dilution experiment! It will be wonderful as an opportunity! :lol: This has no connection to Islam within India.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 28 Oct 2010 03:36

brihaspati wrote: This was part of other material forwarded to me by a "dissident" and I am not quoting the other parts to protect the source. This footnote is for TonyMontana ji - who appears to talk of the homogeneous Han/Chinese identity that solidly desires the CPC and PLA to continue.


Maybe you would like to add up the population of the dissidents (ie Tibetan, Uyghurs and hardcore FLG ..etc) and then compare it with the population of the whole of China.

No one ever said all Chinese love CCP. All I'm saying is that a lot of Chinese has learnt to live with the CCP.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Hari Seldon » 28 Oct 2010 03:37

^^^ I think I 'get' it but am not totally sure that is what you're thinking, b-ji. Unlikely to pan out, I'd say. Cultures have died every century of every millenium in world history - so what's one more expiring only....

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 28 Oct 2010 03:47

TonyMontana wrote:Maybe you would like to add up the population of the dissidents (ie Tibetan, Uyghurs and hardcore FLG ..etc) and then compare it with the population of the whole of China.

No one ever said all Chinese love CCP. All I'm saying is that a lot of Chinese has learnt to live with the CCP.


Are you that sure about the level of dissidence being only confined to a "few" Tibetans, Uyghurs and hardcore FLG (I was expecting that coming from such illustrious "revolutionary" heritage and experience as that of the CPC overwhelmed Chinese society - you would be more worried about the "softcore"!)? Or for that matter is the CPC itself sure about the level of dissidence - even within its own ranks? Are you sure that even the mid-level party apparatchiks trust their "tongzhi"s?

No, I am not talking only of a few Uyghurs or Tibetans - I am talking of much closer to home! If you really have any threads of connection with the ground in China - and some degree of interface with the "party" itself, I am sure you understand what I am referring to. If you are under any compulsion not to indicate so - no need, and do maintain your silence.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 28 Oct 2010 03:49

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ I think I 'get' it but am not totally sure that is what you're thinking, b-ji. Unlikely to pan out, I'd say. Cultures have died every century of every millenium in world history - so what's one more expiring only....


No - not in this case. The rulers have problems themselves - much deeper inside. Any such ethnic cleansing move will have disastrous consequence for the party itself. It will become a tool in certain internal fights.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 28 Oct 2010 03:54

brihaspati wrote:Are you that sure about the level of dissidence being only confined to a "few" Tibetans, Uyghurs and hardcore FLG (I was expecting that coming from such illustrious "revolutionary" heritage and experience as that of the CPC overwhelmed Chinese society - you would be more worried about the "softcore"!)? Or for that matter is the CPC itself sure about the level of dissidence - even within its own ranks? Are you sure that even the mid-level party apparatchiks trust their "tongzhi"s?

No, I am not talking only of a few Uyghurs or Tibetans - I am talking of much closer to home! If you really have any threads of connection with the ground in China - and some degree of interface with the "party" itself, I am sure you understand what I am referring to. If you are under any compulsion not to indicate so - no need, and do maintain your silence.


This is a very interesting view point. You seems to have formed this opinion that most people in China is just waiting to get rid of the CCP and that only the draconian oppression of a few CCP members with the help of the ruthless PLA is what's keeping the CCP in power. Did I get that right?

I am from China, so I would like to think I have some connection with the place. Very interesting that Indians think they know more about China then Chinese. ( I know. I know. I'm a brain washed drone that only spills what the CCP tell me to. I have not idea what's really going on in China..etc)

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 28 Oct 2010 05:28

^^Maybe you needed to ignore my pointer that I was clearly talking about the distrust that exists among the party functionaries and the factional infighting that is increasing. I was not talking of the supposed overwhelming mass of the Chinese non-party members. That does not mean that I am endorsing the view that dissent does not exist among a significantly large proportion of the populations.

If you are as knowledgeable about China as you claim, you must be aware that the CPC and the PLA was a very small and negligible fraction of the Chinese population for a long long time before it could capture power due to specific circumstantial vacuum. It may seem as if China now no longer has a vacuum - just as it seemed to be so even in the mid 40's when the CPC was still a marginal force and it was the nationalists who were apparently dominant in almost every sphere with an iron grip on power. They pursued exactly the same policy in trying to control people and exercise power, and in the early-mid 40's they seemed to be in total control. We know where history led them to.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 28 Oct 2010 06:10

brihaspati wrote:If you are as knowledgeable about China as you claim, you must be aware that the CPC and the PLA was a very small and negligible fraction of the Chinese population for a long long time before it could capture power due to specific circumstantial vacuum. It may seem as if China now no longer has a vacuum - just as it seemed to be so even in the mid 40's when the CPC was still a marginal force and it was the nationalists who were apparently dominant in almost every sphere with an iron grip on power. They pursued exactly the same policy in trying to control people and exercise power, and in the early-mid 40's they seemed to be in total control. We know where history led them to.


So what you're saying is to get rid of the CCP, we need world war three? Bad == is bad ==. I think you and me are on the same page here. If I could wave a magic wand and make the CCP disappear I would. But the world don't work that way.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby naren » 28 Oct 2010 06:20

There are about ~100,000 demonstrations every year, by CCP's own statistic. According to one documentary - People's Republic of Capitalism - it could be well around 300,000. Those who have truly milked with the current setup and those who live off of the scraps from the table are the only ones who "live with" CCP. There is a certain demographic bias in the posters who come here - english educated, computer & internet literate (no, I'm not even pulling up the 50 cent army argument), unlike many of their comrades who slog in sweatshops working 14*6 hrs/week. Naturally they live in a cocoon, totally cut off from reality and feel that the entire population has "learnt to live" with "their basturds" just like they are.

In short, something nasty is brewing up across the river and we can all...
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