People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

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Leonard
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Leonard » 29 Oct 2010 12:37

Similarities Between Germany & China -- World War II -- and possibly start for World War III

Territorial:

Germany had Lots of Territorial Claims -- Especially that "pockets of Lands containing German People" were part of Germany ..

For example:
Rhineland, Saar region, Anschluss (Austria & Germany were 1 Country under God ..), Memel Territory,
Czechoslovakia, Sudetenland ...

China has Lots of Territorial Claims
Arunachal Pradesh, Spratly Islands, Tibet, Taiwan, Senkaku Islands, South China Sea, etc etc etc ..

Goverment:

Germany: Autocratic Govt led by Hitler -- that used "nationalism", & "patriotism" & "fascism" to further his own power ..

China:
CCP: Autocratic, Govt led or Controlled by PLA Power hungry generals -- Also uber nationalistic & patriotic ..

Economic:

Germany: 1935-1939
Had a Huge Surplus of "Finished Goods" -- Was looking for New Territories for Raw Materials & export of finished Goods

China: 2001-2010
Has a Huge Surplus of "Finished Goods" -- But with World Economic Meltdown ?? is on the prowl for New Territories for Raw Materials & export of finished Goods -- See the Frenetic Expansion in Africa & South America ??


Genocidal Behavior & Internal Unrest ..


Germany:
Kristal nichts and start of rounding up Jews, Gypsies, and other ethnic Minorities -- Set up Extermination Camps ..

China:
Genocide in Tibet, Xinjiang, internal unrests and demonstrations (carefully hidden), Bank Runs, Internet Censorship, etc etc

Rapid Military Expansion

Germany:
Spends "tons & tons of money" on new and better weapons at a frenetic pace to re-arm itself ... Massive U-Boat Construction, Ship Building, Air Force expansions

China:
Spending "tons & tons of money" buying SU Jets from Russia, Building J10/J11s in Numbers, Tons of Missiles, More Nukes, More Submarines, More Naval Ships, Oil Capacity, ...

Looks like the World better start preparing for a World War III.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby PrasadZ » 29 Oct 2010 12:46

I would support the CCP too if i were a chinese. It has provided normalcy. It has been able to spread prosperity to the masses way better than india. And it the only country which has been able to keep the jihadi's down.

+1 to that !

Funny, this is the 2nd time today I am forced to defend Chinese actions. My English colleague was dissing Chinese currency "manipulation" and I had to point out that its only the Anglo saxons who are bothered. The financial crisis is an Anglo Saxon undertaking and its cure should not require other countries (incl China) to do what is not in their best interest.

In both cases, though, am a little circumspect about the support. The CCP is not China - not at all certain that economic prosperity needed converting China into a US goods supplier and money lender. But it sure allowed CPC to crow that central control of the economy allowed it to generate that prosperity. Likewise, throwing its weight around allows China some strategic victories (being charitable) but its more than likely the strategic heft would have come about with growing prosperity in any case. As Shiv points out very cogently, something similar to the "string of pearls" strategy would have been necessary for China to manage their supply lines, in every scenario. The way they have gone about it causes the discomfort, not the fact of it.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby svinayak » 29 Oct 2010 12:49

nvishal wrote:I would support the CCP too if i were a chinese. It has provided normalcy. It has been able to spread prosperity to the masses way better than india. And it the only country which has been able to keep the jihadi's down.

Would you support the nationalistic party of India

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby naren » 29 Oct 2010 12:49

TonyMontana wrote:We Chinese are like electrons. We like to follow the path of least resistence. If overthrowing the CCP means pain scale 7 and living under oppression mean pain scale 5. We don't do it. If CCP starts a war and living with CCP means pain scale 9 and overthrowing CCP means pain scale 7. We'll do it. Right now it's pain scale 3. And the CCP is trying to keep it under pain scale 5. So we do our part.


Question is, how can you judge the pain scale when there is no free media ? Neither can you convince anybody that it is 3 onlee and not 7 - on what facts will you back your claim ? (Colbert's Truthiness ?) Isnt it possible that those who have really felt the pinch might have different opinion than someone who speaks english and computer/internet literate ?

As for your point about true soldier - I certainly admire it and personally believe in the same wrt India. Unfortunately, the elites dont give two sheets about you. Wars happen because some fat cat in Beijing want it to happen - not for Chinese civilization or anything. (Point in case - Cultural Revolution - massive destruction to people just because one individual wanted to maintain his power). Is the same argument applicable for India ? It is. But India is a democracy & lesser evil. If you look at the past 6 decades, India has never initiated any war. Democracy is answerable to people. A few group of people behind closed doors cant snap their fingers and make it happen here. If I were you, I would rather sacrifice my life in the pursuit of democracy - definitely a lesser evil as demonstrated by many precedents worldwide - rather than putting up with dicktatorship & sacrificing it in war. Sacrifice happens in both cases. In the former, you atleast ensure that future generations dont meet the same fate. In the latter - the dicktators will perpetuate their power and guess who'll be the "true soldiers" next ? Your kids and grand kids and their great grand kids.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 29 Oct 2010 13:01

Leonard wrote:

Their answer ---> We were just Following Orders !!!

It is NOT about "patriotism"


No. It's not patriotism that drives me. I have a much more horrifying answer for you.

What drives me, and in my own humble opinion, the Chinese is.

DUTY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_( ... philosophy)

In Chinese history, Legalism (Chinese: 法 家; pinyin: Fǎjiā; Wade–Giles: Fa-chia; literally "School of law") was one of the main philosophic currents during the Warring States Period (and before), although the term itself was invented in the Han dynasty and thus does not refer to an organized 'school' of thought. It basically postulates that humans are evil and need to be controlled using laws in order to prevent chaos. The trends that were later called Legalism have a common focus on strengthening the political power of the ruler, of which law is only one part. The most important surviving texts from this tradition are the Han Fei Zi and the Book of Lord Shang. In Qin the ideas of Shang Yang and Li Si were essential in building the strong government that eventually defeated its rivals. Legalism was a utilitarian political philosophy that did not address higher questions like the nature and purpose of life.[1] The school's most famous proponent and contributor Han Fei Zi (韓非子) believed that a ruler should use the following three tools to govern his subjects:

Fa (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; literally "law or principle"): The law code must be clearly written and made public. All people under the ruler were equal before the law. Laws should reward those who obey them and punish accordingly those who dare to break them. Thus it is guaranteed that actions taken are systematically predictable. In addition, the system of law ran the state, not the ruler, a statement of rule of law. If the law is successfully enforced, even a weak ruler will be strong.
Shu (Chinese: 術; pinyin: shù; literally "method, tactic or art"): Special tactics and "secrets" are to be employed by the ruler to make sure others don't take over control of the state. Especially important is that no one can fathom the ruler's motivations, and thus no one can know which behaviour might help them getting ahead; except for following the 法 or laws.
Shi (Chinese: 勢; pinyin: shì; literally "legitimacy, power or charisma"): It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself or herself, that holds the power. Therefore, analysis of the trends, the context, and the facts are essential for a real ruler.


Read this artical very well. This is what confusian thought is really about. What I feel is not nationalism or patriotism. It is duty. Duty to my family. Duty to my Clan. Duty to my Country. I don't have to like it. I don't have to agree to it. I just have to do it. When my cousin, who I don't even like, ask me for help. I don't ask why? I ask what. The same reason Japanese soldiers stay on islands for decades fighting a world war they didn't know finished. East asians are driven by duty.
Last edited by Rahul M on 29 Oct 2010 17:33, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: 2nd time I'm asking, do NOT use large fonts.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby nvishal » 29 Oct 2010 13:15

Acharya wrote:Would you support the nationalistic party of India

There is nothing common to compare the two besides being nationalistic. BJP has been in power for just 5 years. The CCP has been in power for several decades. Would the BJP have accelerated the pace of growth if they had been in power equal to the duration of CCP? High probability but we're talking about the future, who knows?

The US does not have a diverse population so in a way the democrats and the republicans are the same. One is more intense than the other. It is a one party system. Similarly, the chinese reproduce the US system by putting forward several candidates from the same party. One candidate more intense than the other. Basically, both the US and the chinese have a similar political system.

I cannot say that india is a true democracy compared to US or china. Remove the regional parties and our system will start shaping up like those two.

@TonyMontana
In indic, DUTY is synonym with DHARMA - the good morals and the bad morals. There are some things which indics will just not do. These are not emotions. It is just that indic's will never be the first one's to do it.
Last edited by nvishal on 29 Oct 2010 13:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 29 Oct 2010 13:15

What Tony Montana is talking about is, believe it or not, a Chinese version of dharma. But if that dharma is misdirected it is adharma and the Chinese will have to be taught that fact.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby TonyMontana » 29 Oct 2010 13:31

nvishal wrote: @TonyMontana
In indic, DUTY is synonym with DHARMA - the good morals and the bad morals. There are some things which indics will just not do. These are not emotions. It is just that indic's will never be the first one's to do it.


Wow! This is buzzing me out so hard right now. How can we be so similar but so different? There are things you never do. And there are things we must do.

Tell you what. Out of all the world religions, I'm an atheist by the way(engineering school would do that to you), you guys had the right idea.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby JE Menon » 29 Oct 2010 17:28

Boss, the Chinese ideas aren't that different...

We just go the "dharmic" way because the alternative is the Hobbesian "all against all"... While that works for a while, it works only for a while.

If power is the objective, then it must be power that can be sustained for the longest possible time - because nothing is eternal. This sort of power requires the maximum vested interest in the tyranny by the maximum number of people. Which, in turn, means power must be diffused and distributed within the superstructure trying to maintain and extend that power.

Not saying this is not the case in China now (I'm not well enough informed), but it does not seem to be so.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby nvishal » 29 Oct 2010 19:42

TonyMontana wrote:Wow! This is buzzing me out so hard right now. How can we be so similar but so different? There are things you never do. And there are things we must do.

I didn't say we are similar. Your version of dharma seems to have some exceptions. You have done things which shouldn't have been done, things which we consider adharma. Indic might have influenced some of your principles and ideas in the early years but you have taken it on a different course.

TonyMontana wrote:Tell you what. Out of all the world religions, I'm an atheist by the way(engineering school would do that to you), you guys had the right idea.

Im an atheist too. As a matter of fact, most of the members on this board are atheists. So lets not make statements claiming what we are and what we are not. Our words and reasons itself are the best give away of who we are.

What seems to bother pakistan is the fact that it has killed too many indians over the years. It always lives in a state of fear whether india will take revenge. Or whether it will come and annex the rest of kashmir. It is forever restless.

China too has done things in the past which has resulted in many indians getting killed. It worries them. It wonders whether india will take revenge. Whether it will pass on nuclear know how to countries like vietnam etc. It wonders whether india will team up with the west to end the dragon's misery.

Fact is, there are some things which india will never do. Even if that makes us appear as a damsel in distress or a coward.
Last edited by nvishal on 29 Oct 2010 19:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Pulikeshi » 29 Oct 2010 19:45

^ I say this with all humility - for having noodled on Dharma a long time ago on BRF...
This term now gets thrown around like popcorn!

India is civilization optimized - Sadharana (common) Dharma is one of the means.
Nation-states cannot follow this principle - they need to follow Raja Dharma or in cases
of distress what is called Apada Dharma. Therefore, irrespective of nation-state(s) that
ruled Indians, the citizen feels entitled to rights and demands it from the rulers who are
themselves considered bound to the codes of Dharma. Ironically, having this Dharmic
framework has caused Indians to be less patriotic and lax in duties.

China is nation-state optimized - as a civilization it borrows from other entities and has
produced few memes on its own. Even when it does, the development in art, culture, etc. are at
the mercy of the next supreme overlord that established the nation-state.
The Chinese citizen comes off way more patriotic and vigilant in her duties given the lack
of overarching framework or code (social contract) with the nation-state. Therefore,
ironically, not having a Dharmic framework has the exact opposite effect on Chinese.

Obviously, this is OT, and obviously, there is more to this than I describe above...
Again my humble request - this line of reasoning results in nothing productive on this thread.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Leonard » 30 Oct 2010 00:41

Tony Montana Wrote ..

What drives me, and in my own humble opinion, the Chinese is.

DUTY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_( ... philosophy)

In Chinese history, Legalism (Chinese: 法 家; pinyin: Fǎjiā; Wade–Giles: Fa-chia; literally "School of law") was one of the main philosophic currents during the Warring States Period (and before), although the term itself was invented in the Han dynasty and thus does not refer to an organized 'school' of thought. It basically postulates that humans are evil and need to be controlled using laws in order to prevent chaos. The trends that were later called Legalism have a common focus on strengthening the political power of the ruler, of which law is only one part. The most important surviving texts from this tradition are the Han Fei Zi and the Book of Lord Shang. In Qin the ideas of Shang Yang and Li Si were essential in building the strong government that eventually defeated its rivals. Legalism was a utilitarian political philosophy that did not address higher questions like the nature and purpose of life.[1] The school's most famous proponent and contributor Han Fei Zi (韓非子) believed that a ruler should use the following three tools to govern his subjects:

Fa (Chinese: 法; pinyin: fǎ; literally "law or principle"): The law code must be clearly written and made public. All people under the ruler were equal before the law. Laws should reward those who obey them and punish accordingly those who dare to break them. Thus it is guaranteed that actions taken are systematically predictable. In addition, the system of law ran the state, not the ruler, a statement of rule of law. If the law is successfully enforced, even a weak ruler will be strong.
Shu (Chinese: 術; pinyin: shù; literally "method, tactic or art"): Special tactics and "secrets" are to be employed by the ruler to make sure others don't take over control of the state. Especially important is that no one can fathom the ruler's motivations, and thus no one can know which behaviour might help them getting ahead; except for following the 法 or laws.
Shi (Chinese: 勢; pinyin: shì; literally "legitimacy, power or charisma"): It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself or herself, that holds the power. Therefore, analysis of the trends, the context, and the facts are essential for a real ruler.



Human Beings are bound by a code of "ethics".




Fortunately the Concept of "Eye for an Eye", and "Clan for a Clan" has long since changed except perhaps in China and in the Islamic World.

Case in point -- If in your Family, some one close is targeted by hate, murder -- DOES not mean that if your brother orders you to re-actively target the Family of the Victim --- You cannot implement this concept of "Duty" -- It is UN-ETHICAL !!

People who don't follow history are bound to create "tragedy" ..

Legalism & Similar Concepts are what drove the "Japanese Govt" of World War 2 -- to sacrifice Millions in Nagasaki & Hiroshima ...

They could have laid down arms -- Yes they would have lost "Face" --


But they "Chose" the hardway and sacrificed "innocent people" -- Probably many of whom had NO say
in starting the war in the first place !!!


What Boggles the mind, is I have met several Chinese Grad Students with M.S, and PhDs in Comp Science, Biomedical Engg, Elect Engg -- Similarites in Belief are amazing .. :roll: :roll:

Only exception was 1 older grad Student who was 45+ and had been "enrolled" in a Forcible Labor Camp cutting wood in Forests, after being forcibly removed from University -- during the Cultural Revolution ?

He had seen the "Communist Light Bulb Go Dim " .. :twisted:

But Most "STILL" refuse to see reality, and separate "Reality" from "Legalism" --

The concept of "while in Rome do as the Romans do does not exist" ..

For example -- 1952 Korean War -- I had a Ph. D in Comp Science tell me that -- 1 Million Chinese Volunteers took part to fight on North Korean Communist behalf ... So I asked him-- whether these "Volunteers" have Factories manufacturing "Machine Guns", "Grenades", "Mortars" in his bedroom -- Was it a family business ?

Kind of like Pakis have in Darra Adem Khel .. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Ethics is the Code (21st Century) -- that should overrule all "ISMs" and concepts of Religion, Emotion, Behaviour, Legalism, Patriotism, etc etc ..

Of Course that rules out the PAKIS -- they want to go back to 7th Century -- Hence they believe in Islamism & Legalism -- Check out the Pushtoon Code of Honor -- Very Similar :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Kamboja » 30 Oct 2010 01:02

@Tony

What do you think are the odds on the CCP managing a staggered transition to a more democratic system in the future? It seems to me that the constant refrain (implicit rather than explicit) of the CCP has been that they are 'compelled' to maintain an autocratic system because the Chinese people are not accustomed to/ cannot handle democracy, so in the interests of harmony and progress the one-party rule must continue; but in time, of course, once the Chinese people have politically matured, then the CCP will gradually introduce more democracy.

I understand that some progress has actually been made to devolve decision-making at the very local (municipal) level, but my questions to you --
- Do you think the CCP leadership is sincere about someday sharing power in a multiparty system? (if yes, is that the kind of 'someday' that will never come?)
- What are the average views of your peers on this same question? Do the educated upper-middle class of China (who are not part of the CCP) really believe that the CCP will eventually share power?
- It seems from your posts that your duty is to China, not necessarily the CCP -- the CCP just happen to command your duty because they happen to be in power today. Given a hypothetical scenario where you could, with a magic wand, determine the shape of China's political system tomorrow, do you think a multi-party (or two-party) democratic system would serve China's national interest better than the CCP?

Thanks in advance, your posts make for interesting reading. Always good to remind ourselves that there are human beings much like ourselves on the other side...

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby rsingh » 30 Oct 2010 01:17

Good post Leonard. Keep us enlightened.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Pulikeshi » 30 Oct 2010 01:25

The problem come about in confusing values (even ethical ones) for geo-strategic thinking.

India, or for that matter the US, in some sense could care less if China as a society and
as a state is Communist, Buddhist, or whatever else. What one cares about is the
outward view of China to the rest of the world and if its rise is peaceful or if it throws its
weight around.

If democracy, dharma, whatever other values achieve geo-political interests of India, US, etc.,
then it makes sense to push that agenda. Example, this is how the west uses Human Rights.

All the chiskology in the world is good chai-biscoot on this forum, but meaningless.
That the Chinese, currently, do not possess a strong ideological framework is irrelevant.
Their strategy is krinvanto vishwam dasyu

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby RajeshA » 30 Oct 2010 02:12

Pullikeshi ji,

I agree with your words - chiskology does not solve geo-politics. But chiskology does help Indians understand China, and that is the need of the day. The more we know about the Pakistanis next door, the less we know about the Chinese.

The other aspect of chiskology is of course the Indian propaganda version of "Human Rights". If it increases entropy there, it is good.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby harbans » 30 Oct 2010 03:42

Tony ji, in India's context Dharma is not thrown loosely. It can be seen or preliminarily understood as the right Means to achieve a Goal..from getting a Kingdom to Moksha. Dharma or means is very important to India and Indians. IT is not to other cultures which may slip shod on Human rights etc. Thats why we stress Dharma.

Thats why in our civilization that stresses Dharma, it's very unlikely that dictatorships can come up. That is why our resentment when Chinese CCP protagonists claim means is not important. The path of Dharma entails the right means. Praying to keep us on the right path. India may not have fully lived up to that path, but we have always stressed it and believed in the means, in the Dharma. We may have exceptions to the rule..but the rule is still defined by Dharma..the right means to achieve goals. You can make that a religion, a way of life, what you choose..

Naxal, Islamic, Commie societies to achieve short term goals dismiss ethics, means, morals. India can never do it except if it is conquered. The fight against Islamism, Naxals, extreme Left wing Ideologies as espoused is just that battle. The means the Dharma still is important to the Indian people by en large. This forum uses that word to stress it. Hindu, Jian and Buddhist religions do stress that. Thats why the Dalai Lama does'nt send death squads to murder innocent Chinese in Shanghai and Beijing. Vice versa, Naxals do, Commies do, Islamists do. Without compunction. It as you and i know makes the world a worse place.

So Indic, Dharma is not just a dropped term here. It has much more meaning than you are comprehending till now.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby JwalaMukhi » 30 Oct 2010 03:50

harbans wrote:
Naxal, Islamic, Commie societies to achieve short term goals dismiss ethics, means, morals. India can never do it except if it is conquered. The fight against Islamism, Naxals, extreme Left wing Ideologies as espoused is just that battle. The means the Dharma still is important to the Indian people by en large. This forum uses that word to stress it. Hindu, Jian and Buddhist religions do stress that. Thats why the Dalai Lama does'nt send death squads to murder innocent Chinese in Shanghai and Beijing. Vice versa, Naxals do, Commies do, Islamists do. Without compunction. It as you and i know makes the world a worse place.

So Indic, Dharma is not just a dropped term here. It has much more meaning than you are comprehending till now.


This is very important. Many are swayed and enthralled by the stupendous short term goals and would rigidly want to emulate this reference framework. Open source, distributed networking reference framework is light years ahead of closed societies and ideologies. Can open source distributed network be taken down? Absolutely, that can be done by eliminating the last person that can adhere to this frame work. But can the idea of open source distributed network be put back, Nope not possible, the genie is out the bottle and cannot be turned back. Only it will resurface at a different time.
But closed societies like china are bent on pumelling han imperialism on others by trying to suffocate the open source distributed network by an ideology that has tunnel vision. It may work for sometime, but it will fail eventually. Only fresh light can alleviate this problem. But Han imperialists being nervous wrecks would control everything that they can lay their hands on.
A fresh dose of sunlight will solve the problem. Better way to defeat open source distributed networking reference framework would be a bigger and better open source, but that would mean han imperialism would cease to be.

Vice versa, Naxals do, Commies do, Islamists do. Without compunction. It as you and i know makes the world a worse place.

They are mostly expressions of impotence and frustrations of failed logic and ideologies.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby harbans » 30 Oct 2010 04:08

Jwala Mukhi ji, precisely. Dharma is the right means. That's why you see Indians supporting the Villager with his small piece of land defying being bought over. That's why very very importantly we here get enraged when SuAR supports such movements (that espouse Adharma) pretending she is on the side of Dharma..because she supports the forces that will put legal structures on society if in power against Dharma or the right means.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby JwalaMukhi » 30 Oct 2010 04:28

harbans wrote: That's why very very importantly we here get enraged when SuAR supports such movements (that espouse Adharma) pretending she is on the side of Dharma..because she supports the forces that will put legal structures on society if in power against Dharma or the right means.

Little OT, but still relevant to this thread. SuAR is an advocate of suicide bummer. No this is not said in jest. The imperialistic forces, give rise to some suicide bombers who believe in killing others who are not like them. They say to the others, drop dead. This is where SuAR comes in, and says yep that's is exactly correct, she advocates to commit collective suicide to others - hence she is a suicide bummer, who dislikes any opposition to suicide bombers. Basically, support and provide tolerance to intolerance. A misanthrope who dislikes humans in general and dharmics in particular.
Han imperialism also displays such narcissistic but misanthropic tendencies. Will tolerate anything as long as it is Hans. Hence no compunction in following scorched earth tactics.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby harbans » 30 Oct 2010 05:04

Jwalamukhi ji, Dharma will always imply the right means and the right goals. Somehow India has always gone for that. Whether it's naturally selecting folks like Vivekananda, Gandhi, Ramakrishna as it's ideals or Rama, Buddha, Jain, Guru Nanak's preachings. Dharma for India can nver imply 72 virgins or rivers of wine. Neither they can of low caste persecution, women bashing and so on. Thats why Yudhistra's last question before entry to heaven was multiple choice..What constructs a Brahmin: Birth or Character. Y answers Character only. He gets his ticket.

SuAR is advocating and supporting people who WILL 100 % put millions of Indians in the sewer within a system which does not have defined Dharmic or right means aims and goals. So Suar while superficially harping on Human rights is Adharmic. She goes to hell for that. She'll be born into the very society she promoted at it's worst. Where they whip women and stone them to death. She wants that. And the Dharmic God is just and democratic. He gives one what he or she as SuAR(ni) is, wants.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby naren » 30 Oct 2010 05:12

OT. Noob kweschan. Bho ij SuAR hain ji ?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby RajeshA » 30 Oct 2010 05:13

SuAR == Suzanne Arundhati Roy

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby JwalaMukhi » 30 Oct 2010 05:15

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/LJ29Ad04.html
When a United States delegate once confronted a Chinese diplomat about Beijing's uncompromising support for Pakistan, the Chinese reportedly responded with a heavily-loaded sarcasm: "Pakistan is our Israel," he said.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby naren » 30 Oct 2010 05:40

RajeshA wrote:SuAR == Suzanne Arundhati Roy


Daanks for explaining. I thought you guys were laser painting the target (Sukhoi At Rear)


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Dhiman » 30 Oct 2010 08:03

Leonard wrote:Tony,

I assuming that you have read about the "Holocaust" -- in WW2 by the Nazis ..

Did you ever read about War Crimes Tribunal, and what the justification of German Soldiers and Officers for the "mass extermination" of 7 Million Jews, Gypsies, and other Minorities ?

Their answer ---> We were just Following Orders !!! :evil: :evil:

It is simply a matter of Ethics.


Given that there is no lack of large scale injustices in world history, I don't know why only this "Holocaust" thing (which by the way has absolutely nothing to do with anything in India China context) comes up repeatedly as an example as if the world hasn't seen bigger injustices.

In any case, my personal opinion is that the Chinese don't subscribe to the same notion of ethics that Indians in general and Europeans in their post-enlightenment phase subscribe to.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 30 Oct 2010 08:42

China denies visa to an AP ministerial delegation
What is it this time ?
In a surprising move, China has denied visa to a top-level team from Andhra Pradesh led by industries minister Kanna Lakshminarayana. The delegation was aiming to promote Andhra Pradesh as an investment destination in that country. "No specific reason was given for the visa denial," a top AP government source told TOI. "We're aghast. We're taking up the matter with the Centre," he added.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Rahul M » 30 Oct 2010 09:13

possibly confused about which AP.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2010 09:24

Dhiman wrote:
Given that there is no lack of large scale injustices in world history, I don't know why only this "Holocaust" thing (which by the way has absolutely nothing to do with anything in India China context) comes up repeatedly as an example as if the world hasn't seen bigger injustices.


Macaulay and/or card carrying membership of the anglophone club.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2010 09:47

I think all Indian states should be renamed with double barrelled names beginning with "A" and ending with Pradesh. For example Karnataka could be renamed "Arnakata Pradesh" . Let Madhya Pradesh be called "'Adhya Pradesh". Maharashta becomes "Aharashtra Pradesh" and so on. Arunachal Pradesh should be renamed "Bharat ka atoot ang Pradesh"

Just to confuse the Chinese

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Pulikeshi » 30 Oct 2010 09:53

^ Simpler for every Indian applying for a Chinese visa to answer Arunachal Pradesh :mrgreen:
Also encourage folks with other country citizenship to do the same :rotfl:
Even better: Jammu & Kashmir/Arunachal Pradesh :twisted:
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 30 Oct 2010 09:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby sum » 30 Oct 2010 09:53

shiv wrote:I think all Indian states should be renamed with double barrelled names beginning with "A" and ending with Pradesh. For example Karnataka could be renamed "Arnakata Pradesh" . Let Madhya Pradesh be called "'Adhya Pradesh". Maharashta becomes "Aharashtra Pradesh" and so on. Arunachal Pradesh should be renamed "Bharat ka atoot ang Pradesh"

Just to confuse the Chinese

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2010 10:00

Another thing is to stamp every Chinese passport needing an Indian visa with the words "Free Tibet". "Communism is the scourge of mankind" and other provocative words in various Indian languages.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2010 10:39

AS Shiv said,stamp Free TIbet,Taiwan is the true China and "chit" visas for evrey Chinaman!

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Nihat » 30 Oct 2010 12:50

shiv wrote:Another thing is to stamp every Chinese passport needing an Indian visa with the words "Free Tibet". "Communism is the scourge of mankind" and other provocative words in various Indian languages.


yeah , why not. :D

But on a more realistic note, if the situation gets desperate for GoI there's always the option of issuing Visa on Arrival to Tibetans and that should imply true tibetans not typical export quality Hans who may have infiltrated into Tibet.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby RajeshA » 30 Oct 2010 13:36

shiv wrote:Another thing is to stamp every Chinese passport needing an Indian visa with the words "Free Tibet". "Communism is the scourge of mankind" and other provocative words in various Indian languages.


We should start with Wen Jiabao's visa when he comes to India.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2010 14:01

Cross posting this for attention. Maybe the tarrest blothels will help Pakistan?
r_subramanian wrote:The senior-most bureaucrat dealing with Pakistan's finances has some cheerful news. He is warning that the entire economy may collapse due to Power sector debt and losses of governemnt-owned enterprises.
Power sector debt, PSEs losses, other issues: entire economy may collapse, warns Salman
Secretary, Finance, Salman Siddique, on Friday warned that the entire economy might collapse, leading to international default, if the power sector debt and other economic issues were not managed amicably through immediate structural reforms in public sector entities.
Giving a realistic picture of the current state of economy, he informed the special committee of the Public Accounts Committee that the government has to immediately take 'undesirable' measures to improve the performance of public sector enterprises (PSEs) eating up precious national resources, instead of contributing to the production-starved economy.
...
The PR {Pakistan Railway} is facing a financial deficit of around Rs 40 billion due to corruption, lack of locomotives and losses incurred by running passenger trains. Around Rs 21 billion is paid under the head of wages and pensions every month. The PR has only 590 engines out of which 290 locomotives have become out of order while remaining engine are not able to operate for train service, he added
.
link

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby naren » 30 Oct 2010 14:38

How about giving Tibetan refugees "North Arunachal Pradesh" passport :twisted:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby harbans » 30 Oct 2010 15:15

And TOIlet scores a self goal about the denial of visa's from AP..foolishly asking if there is no difference between AP and Ar P. No dear Editor Toilet..there is no difference and both are equal states within the Indian Union. And thats all that matters in this context.


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