People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

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Lalmohan
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Nov 2010 17:39

arjun, our friend is making the same mistake that the americans make. he sees the yam-sing toasting pak jarnails who come to pay homage to emperor Hu in the forbidden city of the middle kingdom and assume that the rest of the pak satrap is made in the same image

alas, the jarnail wears a mask, or perhaps two or more. he weaves in and out of the seven veils in his courtesan's dance and the emperor's chief eunuchs think that all is well with the warden of the marches. he that keeps the near barbarians in abesience and kow towing to the son of heaven.

history repeats itself

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 05 Nov 2010 17:47

DavidD wrote:Yea, but you forgot to consider the fact that China could threaten Russia and the U.S. with nukes since they're the real masters of India(hey, doesn't have to be true!). Then they'll help China nuke India so they won't get nuked by China for "retaliation" :lol:


LOL indeed.

But did you know that China would be nuked if Pakistan nuked India? So the story of the future is

Pakturdistan nukes India, India nukes China. China nukes the US and Russia and the US and Russia nuke India.

Pakistan wins. There are a few problems in this scenario but let's ignore those little details. :oops:

Do you guys offer education for Pakistanians?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 05 Nov 2010 18:30

TonyMontana wrote:
brihaspati wrote:^^^Ah! once again - in your eagerness you miss the step ! You did not notice the "X-posting" notice and the clear indication that itwas originally a post by "shiv" from the "Islamism" thread! As far as I know of "communist" functioning - they are trained to be meticulous above a certain level of hierarchy! You have not yet crossed that threshold? :P


+1 B-ji. The research underling that failed me has been correctly punished according to Party regulations.

But do you disagree with my intended meaning?

We're not so different. You and I.


Actually I do not love the way the "Chinese do it", so your intended meaning is incorrect. I do not subscribe to the communist-party-type thinking of humans as controllable and rewritable computer chips - and that comes from my cultural heritage, and the reason that Bharat will exist long after "People's Republic of China" will cease to exist.

Since the "Chinese" did allow something like the communist party to overwhelm them in absolute power does indicate - for me - a certain lack of that understanding of human nature. But then again, perhaps even that has a "Sinified" justification - I think your state approved theory claims a completely different evolutionary line for the "Chinese only" straight from Homo erectus and therefore are genetic-evidence-defying "archaic" species different from us "modern humans"!

I am definitely "friends" with a significant number of people of Chinese origin, but I am not going to say where they are normally located. Some are based abroad, and some are still in China. Do I see a possibility of a new China of the future - minus all of its its CPC and all of PLA upper echelons - to be friends with the Indian union? Yes. But there are obstacles to be crossed - liberation and absorption of the people currently under occupation by a Jihadi government and military in the western parts of India, liberation of the people currently under military occupation by an foreign and invading force in East Turkmenistan, liberation and independent state formation of the people currently under military occupation and colonial exploitation by an invading foreign force in Tibet.

Then there is the necessity of trying CPC leadership - current and surviving at that time, for crimes against humanity and war crimes, as well as PLA leadership and teh internal security services for the same.

Yes after this massive cleaning up - we can be friends with the liberated Chinese.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 05 Nov 2010 19:16

TonyMontana wrote
Pakistan's survival depends on the continuing low intensity attacks on India.


DavidD wrote
Yes, the benefit is avoiding an inevitable collapse of Pakistan at the hands of India, the cost is a very, very remote chance of nuclear war with India.

It's really pretty odd how some of you guys think. First you believe Pakistan leaders are suicidal, then you assume that the only way to combat that is by being equally suicidal. I'm confident that neither the Pakistani leaders nor the Indian leaders are remotely as suicidal as you think they are, so it's pretty obvious what would happen.


Combine the two posts from the two apologists of CPC, PLA and the Paki Occupation Government of Western India (POGWI). So their combined logic means that Chinese decision makers think that

(1) POGWI can survive solely by continuing low-intensity attacks on India, and to protect that tactic of survival PRC needs to proliferate nukes to Pak and back it up by placing nuke on missiles targeting Indian populations as an additional hedge.

(2) That India is not likely to retaliate even if POGWI does a nuke attack, or allows one of its Jihadi assets to use the nukes to claim "non-state" actors as responsible.

What is interesting to note is that they are keen to ensure that India does not "become suicidal", for that possibility is the real spanner in the works for the Chinese and Pak plans to succeed. They need that extra bit of "rationality" in Indian leadership so that they can continue in their land-grab operations and the sadism that drives both the theologies.

China's and "Chinese" support like TM and DD's to the Jihadi sadism of POGWI, basically reveals that they are driven by the same dark side of the human spirit - the enjoyment of infliction of torture on and pain in the innocent. They will protect the sadistic continuous mental disorder called Pak, and in that they prove that the Chinese regime now in power have this same sadistic mental disorder.

Both entities therefore prove that they really do not belong to the human domain - or represent a stalled and archaic stage of humanoid evolution (as claimed by state sponsored Chines scientists). Maybe that is the key to dealing with them? :P

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 05 Nov 2010 19:23

DavidD wrote:
It's really pretty odd how some of you guys think. First you believe Pakistan leaders are suicidal, then you assume that the only way to combat that is by being equally suicidal. I'm confident that neither the Pakistani leaders nor the Indian leaders are remotely as suicidal as you think they are, so it's pretty obvious what would happen.


:rotfl: Heck no. You have misinterpreted us on BRF just as everyone misinterprets China.

Let me explain - but I will talk of China first (and the opinions are mine). I think Chinese leaders indulge in a lot of bluster - blowing hot and cold and getting threatening and walking around with a huge chip on "China's shoulder". This scares the crap out of smaller nations that are China's neighbors. While it used to scare a whole lot of BRFites as well and the Indian media - the Indian armed forces and government are far more balanced and do not actually scare that easily.

As regards Pakistan - I don't think you know enough and I don't think you will understand easily. It is not easy to understand. Pakistan is nothing. It is a zero as a country minus India. Pakistan is India. Pakistanis are Indians. They know it. Every Indian knows it.

So you might well ask "How did Pakistan become a separate country?". The answer to that can perhaps be understood in comparing how China dealt with Xinjiang versus how the British, in India dealt with relations between Muslims and non Muslims.

China has just overwhelmed and buried its minority within the mass of its majority. China (perhaps rightly, I don't know) said "Bugger off! You guys can stuff it" to religion.

That's not the way India worked. India before independence (1947) wanted to keep all religions intact - which is a historic characteristic of India. But politics of religion dictated that a few members of the Muslim minority (encouraged by some British skullduggery) claimed that Islam and Muslims in India would be swallowed up and suppressed in India (in the same way that China actually did in Xinjiang). It was never true. India never did that and never will. But Pakistan was born to "save the Muslims of India". It is another matter that more than half the Muslims remained behind in India.

Pakistanis were Indians. 100% Indians. But they were Indian Muslims who had been told that they would all be killed in India. So the survival of Pakistan as a nation was hinged on being Muslim. You do know that "Paki" means "pure". Pure Muslim, that is. Pakistan came into being as a nation that was the "progressive half" of India. A forward looking community of Muslims who had, in a little white lie to themselves, "ruled India" and would eventually "prevail". India on the other hand was dismissed as a nation like the equator was a nation. It would soon collapse into its own contradictions.

Pakistan was supported by the west against egregious ba$tardly communists - primarily the Soviet Union - but also the damn yellow cockroach eating slanteye Chinese. Pakistan survived, but it was Pakistan that took all the contradictions. India's unity is not because of language or religion. it is a union of culture, history and geography. Pakistani leaders rejected Indian culture, and history, and they lost the geography. They, in effect, rejected themselves in favor of a cooked up, mythical "islamic culture" that nobody has.

The people who predicted that Indi would split up were 100% correct. It split into India and Pakistan in 1947. It further split up into India, Pakistan and Bangladesh in 1971. It may further split up into India, Bangladesh, Pakjabistan, Sindh and Pashtunistan as the "Tarrel than the tarrest mountains fliends" of the Chinese realise that Indian culture exists but "islam" is not a uniting factor and China will not support pure islam. Nor will the US.

Pakistan's future is in unity with India. Islamists wil be crushed. India will crush them. China will crush them. The US will crush them. But India allows Islam to survive. China will have to copy India. Eventually.

Maybe you will understand our world eventually. The Chinese are an old and cultured friend of India. Pakistan is India.
Last edited by shiv on 05 Nov 2010 19:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Vivek K » 05 Nov 2010 19:39

Beautifully said Shiv!!

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 05 Nov 2010 19:44

Allow me to digress for a minute. I know this is the China thread.

The Chinese are clever, So are the Americans who would not be world leader if they were not. If a beautiful woman comes to you and offers her services to you at whatever price you name (not the price she quotes) - you would be stupid not to use her for something - even as a secretary if not as a concubine. That is what both China and the US have done with Pakistan.

But why did Pakistan offer itself to both the US and China? The reason is that Pakistan's very survival was hinged on being different and separate from India in a situation where there is NO major difference between Pakistanis and Indians in culture or religion. Imagine a Country 4 times the size of China with a population of 7 billion sitting next to China with 10 times the resources and full of Chinese. Imagine staying separate from them using a lame excuse like "We follow a different god". or "we have lighter skin". Pakistani leaders fear India and will sleep with anyone. China. The US. Anyone. But neither China nor the US, nor indeed nuclear weapons can save Pakistan from India. Once the Pakistani army loses power, Pakistanis will make peace with India. That is why the US and China support the Pakistan army. China does not give a damn for Muslims. Allah or Mohammad. India actually supports and allows all these to be worshipped and respected in India. China does not give a damn for education or poverty in Pakistan. China only wants the whore who sleeps with her - the Pakistan army, to do her work. And that whore is getting old, frail and decrepit.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 05 Nov 2010 20:13

In the long term the best way for China to get a land route to the Indian ocean for her exports and imports to be relatively safe is to make friends with India. China and India will never grow as strong as they can with rivalry. Someone else will always benefit. India is not interested in growing at China's expense. It's a waste of time. If China imagines that she is going to grow at India's expense - she is mistaken.

Having said that I think the idea that China wants to grow at everyone else's expense is a western imposed thought process. China simply wants to grow and have a good life. The "motivation" that "China wants to screw everyone" may not be correct. China had to screw everyone to survive as one nation. But cooperation is better for growth and I suspect that the Chinese have not acquired Pakistani brains but retain some of their own. That remains to be seen.

Cooperation between India and China will pay more dividends than competition. But India still needs to see if the Chinese have not degenerated into a bunch of west-copying Paki brains.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby RajeshA » 05 Nov 2010 20:47

shiv wrote:In the long term the best way for China to get a land route to the Indian ocean for her exports and imports to be relatively safe is to make friends with India.


So a guarantee for good relations between India and China is if India enforces that constraint - in order to get a land route to Indian Ocean, China has to make friends with India. At the moment China has other possibilities. We need to take down those other possibilities ruthlessly, be they through PoK or through Myanmar.

Those who want peace with China have to be ruthless against its advancements in IOR, circumventing India.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 05 Nov 2010 21:13

I think modeling the Chinese regime as rational, only aiming for good life, etc all should be done keeping the possibility in mind that they themselves may not see along similar values. For them, perhaps a different set of values remain supreme just as Pakis have their own - which we will always fail to fit in our understanding of rationality. From their point of view of constantly protecting terrorists and continuing to protect terrorists and supplying terrorists with resources is perfectly rational according to their value system - where some "value" is being maximized.

Why do we always try to model others as ourselves? I know it is a convenient starting point - but should it not then be modified by actual tests? In all of their existence since 1949 and 1947 - have the two states and their ruling systems shown anything that makes them "rational" and sharing the "same values" to be maximized as that of India?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 05 Nov 2010 21:20

On the other hand, for people like TM and DD, I think it is desirable for them for us "jingoes" to take the hardline about China. It becomes then easier for the CPC to perhaps try and forge greater links with the Congress, and for all those in India who would like to whine to the CPC - these are bad, bad BRF type suicidal jingoes crticizinng you, don't listen to them and punish us for their words - we have always been devoted and loyal and some of us even called your "chairman" as our chairman....

Now does it not help the Chinese cause? The CPC gets to see who are its real allies in India! :mrgreen: It benefits us too! For then the CPC does not know as to the "parties" or people coming to assure of their submission will also ask for "baksheesh" and China has to compromise either way...

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 21:32

RajeshA wrote:
shiv wrote:In the long term the best way for China to get a land route to the Indian ocean for her exports and imports to be relatively safe is to make friends with India.


So a guarantee for good relations between India and China is if India enforces that constraint - in order to get a land route to Indian Ocean, China has to make friends with India. At the moment China has other possibilities. We need to take down those other possibilities ruthlessly, be they through PoK or through Myanmar.

Those who want peace with China have to be ruthless against its advancements in IOR, circumventing India.


Believe me, China do want to be friends with India. But as long as Dalai is in India, no chinese will trust India. period.

Even for this reason, I do not think China viewed India as a enemy or rival. We just want to do business. We believe in national power not talk power. The national power came from industrial ability and trade. China wants to trade with anybody.

Looked what we are doing right now, we are helping India to build your infrastructure right now. If you are talking about strategy, that is the dumbest thing CCP are currently doing. That means CCP does not view India as enemy or rival. You do not help your enemy or rival to build their infra. That is the strategy 101.

CCP leaders’ strategic thinking are highly over estimated. They just want to build trade routes around the world which may scared a lot of cold war minded people. Even US can not stop it. Because when you tried to stop one country to make deals with China, you need to offer them a better deal which requires resources and money. Does US have any? They do but not enough. Even they stopped this country, China can find the alternative route. Can they buy out every country in the world?

The same thing for the so-called IOR pearl. They are not for circumventing India but for trade with Europe and Africa. It is pure business because China really need those ports. And I do not know how India can stop it. Because at end of the day, money talks. China built the port in Sri Lanka and China does have enough Chinese cargo ship to make it busy. The other ports is the same thing. China wants to own ports in Greece, does it mean we want circle Turkey because of Xinjiang? No, we want those ports because we want trade with Europe.

Frankly speaking, before China make deal with these countries, like Sri Lanka, Bangladesh etc, they are worthless in India pundits’ eyes. And they may be correct. Like all these pearls, they are worthless to India interests. You do not need those ports for your trade routes, China does. The only way seems to stop it is over spend China but can you do it? It is much easy to say than done.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Nov 2010 21:33

why are you so worried about the dalai lama?
what harm can he do to you?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 05 Nov 2010 21:41

Brihaspati. I am not modelling Chinese intentions on myself or what I read "ourselves" to be. What I say is my considered assessment. Anyone is free to disagree with my assessment. If you believe that most Chinese outside the oligarchy are obsessed with ruling the world - it could be true - but I don't think so. My reading of China is changing.

That said, I believe the Chinese are cooperating with each other to grab as much of the world's resources as they can. But everyone is doing that. And the Chinese have a no greater guarantee of getting what they want than anyone else. International clout and money usually means that the nation that wields that gets what it wants - but when push comes to shove there are a few countries who are the biggest grabbers of resources. The US stayed at the top of the pyramid until China started getting there. India is not far behind. The competition will be for resources. And that competition is what will have a direct bearing on what I assess as a basic Chinese desire for a "good life". My assessment is that the Chinese will take the easy way out as far as possible. They will bribe, coerce, steal, oppress steal or cajole if that is easier. They will ruin the environment and screw other incidental people along the way because that is the easiest way to deal with problems.

Clearly, this is not the Indian "consensual, voluntary" way. There is no way the Chinese are doing any "development with a conscience" in the Indian way. The Chinese see the India way as stupid and do not believe that inequality and poverty are a price that can be paid for freedom and lack of coercion. Having said that the Chinese also hide inequality and poverty to give the impression of great uniformity and agreement. No one knows for sure. OTOH the Chinese have no compunction in uprooting people and building western style concrete and glass jungles.

The Chinese probably believe that Indians are inefficient beasts who are unable to make a dent in basic things like poverty and education as the Chinese have done. Indians see the Chinese as coercive beats who are forcibly imposing an impression of "uniformity and unity" by taking the easiest shortcuts and ducking problems that will inevitably crop up. But I do believe China's goals and India's goals in terms of "Everyone having a good life" are the same. Both China and India actually care for their people in different ways in marked contrast to Pakistan. But the similarity ends there.
Last edited by shiv on 05 Nov 2010 21:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 21:45

Lalmohan wrote:why are you so worried about the dalai lama?
what harm can he do to you?


LOL. Why are you so worried about so called IOR perals. What harm can they do? Why are you worried about China?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby svinayak » 05 Nov 2010 21:46

wlin wrote:
Believe me, China do want to be friends with India. But as long as Dalai is in India, no chinese will trust India. period.

China has no choice. China has to accept Dalai in India and future Dalai in India. Tibetian Buddhism is also an Indian religion. Tibetians are in India now and will also be inside Indian in the future. China has to accept it. Period.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 05 Nov 2010 21:53

wlin wrote:
Believe me, China do want to be friends with India. But as long as Dalai is in India, no chinese will trust India. period.
<snip>
The only way seems to stop it is over spend China but can you do it? It is much easy to say than done.


India does not have to overspend China. China has to overspend to keep her supply lines secure. There is no need for India to overspend. India already sits lik a hawk over the Indian ocean. It is silly of Indians to worry about the laughable "string of pearls" BRFites are definitely behind the curve here.

It is because China is worried about the way it has treated its minorities that India gets mileage from keeping the Dalai lama and other Tibetans. Even after the Dalai Lama is dead - China can have peace of mind only when it can stop having to coerce and suppress people to give the impression of unity and uniformity.

i notice that the Chinese nowadays take great pains to give the world an impression of great strength, great unity, great uniformity and great wealth. Only some of this is true. There's a fair degree of bluff there.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 22:00

Acharya wrote:
wlin wrote:
Believe me, China do want to be friends with India. But as long as Dalai is in India, no chinese will trust India. period.

China has no choice. China has to accept Dalai in India and future Dalai in India. Tibetian Buddhism is also an Indian religion. Tibetians are in India now and will also be inside Indian in the future. China has to accept it. Period.


Then this means China and India will never be close friends. In fact, in 1950s, China view India as China's one true friend. Paki is only one US running-dog. Only after 1962 war, we came close.

Even with this fact, China building India infra right now. I guess only some major events can stop CCP doing this stupid thing. Image if there is no such issue, China may already pour in hundreds of billions dollar into India doing this kind of work. Anyway it will not be true.

You built your country by your hands not by your words. At end of day, power talks.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Vivek K » 05 Nov 2010 22:03

wlin wrote:Believe me, China do want to be friends with India. But as long as Dalai is in India, no chinese will trust India. period.

Yes Chairman Mao!!
Looked what we are doing right now, we are helping India to build your infrastructure right now. If you are talking about strategy, that is the dumbest thing CCP are currently doing. That means CCP does not view India as enemy or rival. You do not help your enemy or rival to build their infra. That is the strategy 101.

India would be dumb to take Chinese help for infrastructure. First define "help". As far as I can tell, India is "buying" items using competitive bids and does not take "help" from any nation.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby svinayak » 05 Nov 2010 22:04

wlin wrote:
Believe me, China do want to be friends with India. But as long as Dalai is in India, no chinese will trust India. period.

China has no choice. China has to accept Dalai in India and future Dalai in India. Tibetian Buddhism is also an Indian religion. Tibetians are in India now and will also be inside Indian in the future. China has to accept it. Period.

Then this means China and India will never be close friends.

Even with this fact, China building India infra right now.
You built your country by your hands not by your words. At end of day, power talks.

India is 1.2B and will be 1.7B population in less than 100 years. China has no choice but to have good relations with India. India in the the future is not the India you see now. India keeps improving because of the democracy and new leadership

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 22:06

shiv wrote:India does not have to overspend China. China has to overspend to keep her supply lines secure. There is no need for India to overspend. India already sits lik a hawk over the Indian ocean. It is silly of Indians to worry about the laughable "string of pearls" BRFites are definitely behind the curve here.


Why you think it is overspend. It cut China's shipping cost there. Like for Sri Lanka port, it is ideal for China to redistribute Chinese cargo to middle east and Africa. Right now this is done in Singpore which is very expense.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 22:08

Vivek K wrote:
wlin wrote:Believe me, China do want to be friends with India. But as long as Dalai is in India, no chinese will trust India. period.

Yes Chairman Mao!!
Looked what we are doing right now, we are helping India to build your infrastructure right now. If you are talking about strategy, that is the dumbest thing CCP are currently doing. That means CCP does not view India as enemy or rival. You do not help your enemy or rival to build their infra. That is the strategy 101.

India would be dumb to take Chinese help for infrastructure. First define "help". As far as I can tell, India is "buying" items using competitive bids and does not take "help" from any nation.


Chinese price help cut your cost. Without Chinese companies biding, what price you can get from Western companies. China also delivery fast. I do not want mention this but this is the dumbest thing CCP is doing it right now.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 22:10

Acharya wrote:
wlin wrote:
Believe me, China do want to be friends with India. But as long as Dalai is in India, no chinese will trust India. period.

China has no choice. China has to accept Dalai in India and future Dalai in India. Tibetian Buddhism is also an Indian religion. Tibetians are in India now and will also be inside Indian in the future. China has to accept it. Period.

Then this means China and India will never be close friends.

Even with this fact, China building India infra right now.
You built your country by your hands not by your words. At end of day, power talks.

India is 1.2B and will be 1.7B population in less than 100 years. China has no choice but to have good relations with India. India in the the future is not the India you see now. India keeps improving because of the democracy and new leadership


Hehe. So if we do not have a good relations with India, you will nuke us?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby svinayak » 05 Nov 2010 22:10

wlin wrote:
Why you think it is overspend. It cut China's shipping cost there. Like for Sri Lanka port, it is ideal for China to redistribute Chinese cargo to middle east and Africa. Right now this is done in Singpore which is very expense.

China will be crippled with this "strings of pearl" nonsense. India can disable these points and cripple Chinese economy for good.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Nov 2010 22:13

dumbest thing? but the CCP is making money by doing it, and growing prosperity for Chinese citizens
whats bad about that?
btw - your retort of pearls against dalai lama makes no sense. its comparing apples with oranges

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Leonard » 05 Nov 2010 22:16

DavidD wrote:

I just don't think the Pakis are as suicidal as you guys portray them to be

TonyMontana wrote:


Remember, the point of nuclear deterance is not just punishment after the fact. It is to never have that exchange in the first place.



JUST for TonyM & DavidD & newly added wlin ....



<http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/03/landesman.htm>

The Atlantic Monthly | March 2002

THE AGENDA

A Modest Proposal From the Brigadier

What one prominent Pakistani thinks his country should do with its atomic
weapons

BY PETER LANDESMAN

.....

In the center of the biggest traffic circle of every major city in Pakistan
sits a craggy, Gibraltarish replica of a nameless peak in the Chagai range.
This mountain is the home of Pakistan's nuclear test site. The development,
in 1998, of the "Islamic Bomb," intended as a counter to India's nuclear
capability, is Pakistan's only celebrated achievement since its formation,
in 1947. The mountain replicas, about three stories tall, are surrounded by
flower beds that are lovingly weeded, watered, and manicured. At dusk, when
the streetlights come on, so do the mountains, glowing a weird molten
yellow.

Islamabad's monument to the atomic bomb occupies a rotary between the
airport and the city center. Nearby stand models of Pakistan's two classes
of missile: Shaheen and Ghauri. The Islamabad nuclear shrine stands at a
place where the city is dissolving into an incoherent edge town of shabby
strip malls and empty boulevards and rows of desolate government buildings.
A little farther in one comes to the gridded blocks of gated homes. The
neighborhoods are called sectors. The streets are numbered, not named.

Late last year, after nearly two months in Pakistan, I paid the last of many
visits to house No. 8 on street 19, sector F-8/2, a modern white mansion
known as Zardari House. The house has been used by Asif Ali Zardari, the
imprisoned husband of Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan's exiled former Prime
Minister. Neither Zardari nor Bhutto has been there for a long time. Zardari
has been confined for five years, most recently in Attock Fort, a medieval
fortress perched over the Indus River between Islamabad and Peshawar. He is
charged with a slew of crimes: large-scale corruption; conspiracy in the
murder of Bhutto's brother Mir Murtaza; conspiracy to smuggle narcotics.
Bhutto, who also faces corruption charges in Pakistan, lives in Dubai with
their three children. Pakistan's leader, General Pervez Musharraf, has
promised to have her arrested and tried if she ever returns to Pakistan.
Outside the gate to the empty Zardari House sits a man with his back to the
wall, a sawed-off shotgun across his knees.

I had been going there to consult with Brigadier Amanullah, known to his
friends as Aman. Aman, in his early fifties and now retired, is lithe and
gentle-natured and seemed to me slightly depressed. He works in a small
office behind Zardari House, where, as the secretary to Benazir Bhutto in
Islamabad, he coordinates Bhutto's efforts to return to Pakistan and regain
its prime ministership. He also keeps in close touch with old colleagues,
who include many powerful people in Pakistan. Aman was once the chief of
Pakistan's military intelligence in Sind Province, which borders India.
Pakistan's biggest city and a cultural center, Karachi, is in Sind. That put
Aman squarely in the middle of things, his finger near many sorts of
buttons. Today Aman is believed to act as Bhutto's liaison with the armed
forces, and he maintains contacts with serving army officers, including
senior generals. When I wanted to speak to someone in the Pakistani
government, I asked Aman. When I wanted to speak to someone in the Taliban,
or in military intelligence, or in the political opposition, I asked Aman.
His replies were mumbled and monosyllabic. He never offered opinions. He
would simply hear me out and, most times, tip his head and say, "Why not?"
Within an hour after Aman and I parted, I would receive a phone call from
his secretary. References would be made to "that man" or "that matter," and
I would be given a phone number and a time to call. Having spoken with Aman,
I was always expected.

On the day of my final visit Aman seemed more sullen than usual. He ushered
me into a room adjoining the office. The room was long and spare. There was
an oil painting on the far wall. The other walls were empty and lined with
cushioned chairs. Aman sat across from me. We had tea and spoke about the
latest events.

As we were wrapping up our conversation, I looked at the oil painting. It
was a strange picture, a horizontal landscape about four feet across, with
overtones of socialist realism. In the foreground a youthful Benazir Bhutto
stood in heroic pose on an escarpment overlooking the featureless grid of
Islamabad. Beside her stood her father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, a Prime
Minister who in 1977 was ousted in a coup and two years later hanged. On the
other side of Bhutto was Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the long-dead founding father
of Pakistan. Their postures were exalted, their expressions a combination of
pride and awe. Jinnah's arm pointed to the vast plain beyond the city, where
a rocket was lifting out of billowing clouds of vapor and fire into the sky.

Aman noticed me looking at the painting and followed my gaze. I asked him if
Benazir Bhutto had commissioned it, and Aman said no. He told me that one
day when she was still Prime Minister, an unknown man, an ordinary Pakistani
citizen, had come to the gate of Zardari House with the picture and told
Aman that he'd painted it for the Prime Minister and wanted to present it to
her as a gift. Aman said that he was immediately transfixed by the painting.
He called to Bhutto inside the house, but she refused to come down to see
the man. Aman was persistent, and eventually she came down.

"I insisted Benazir accept it as a gift," Aman told me.

We both looked up at the painting in silence. "A rocket ship heading to the
moon?" I asked.

Aman tipped his head to the side. A smirk tugged at the corners of his
mouth. "No," he said. "A nuclear warhead heading to India."

I thought he was making a joke. Then I saw he wasn't. I thought of the
shrines to Pakistan's nuclear-weapons site, prominently displayed in every
city. I told Aman that I was disturbed by the ease with which Pakistanis
talk of nuclear war with India.

Aman shook his head. "No," he said matter-of-factly. "This should happen. We
should use the bomb."

"For what purpose?" He didn't seem to understand my question. "In
retaliation?" I asked.

"Why not?"

"Or first strike?"

"Why not?"

I looked for a sign of irony. None was visible. Rocking his head side to
side, his expression becoming more and more withdrawn, Aman launched into a
monologue that neither of us, I am sure, knew was coming:

"We should fire at them and take out a few of their cities-Delhi, Bombay,
Calcutta," he said. "They should fire back and take Karachi and Lahore. Kill
off a hundred or two hundred million people. They should fire at us and it
would all be over. They have acted so badly toward us; they have been so
mean. We should teach them a lesson. It would teach all of us a lesson.
There is no future here, and we need to start over. So many people think
this. Have you been to the villages of Pakistan, the interior? There is
nothing but dire poverty and pain. The children have no education; there is
nothing to look forward to. Go into the villages, see the poverty. There is
no drinking water. Small children without shoes walk miles for a drink of
water. I go to the villages and I want to cry. My children have no future.
None of the children of Pakistan have a future. We are surrounded by nothing
but war and suffering. Millions should die away."


"Pakistan should fire pre-emptively?" I asked.

Aman nodded.

"And you are willing to see your children die?"

"Tens of thousands of people are dying in Kashmir, and the only superpower
says nothing," Aman said. "America has sided with India because it has
interests there." He told me he was willing to see his children be killed.
He repeated that they didn't have any future-his children or any other
children.

I asked him if he thought he was alone in his thoughts, and Aman made it
clear to me that he was not.

"Believe me," he went on, "If I were in charge, I would have already done
it."

Aman stopped, as though he'd stunned even himself. Then he added, with quiet
forcefulness, "Before I die, I hope I should see it."



From the report above in 2002 ..

1. Pakistan already knows "deterrence" has failed to HALT -- India's Growth & Rise as a Nation
Hence 26/11 was a "Economic Strike" ...

2. Now the ONLY thing left for the PAKIs is the Chinese NOOK /Bum -- It is just a matter of "WHEN" ...

So my Chinese Bros, hope the CCP & PLA -- has prepared the Han Chinese for the nuclear SAMSON sword ... :twisted: :twisted:
Last edited by Leonard on 05 Nov 2010 22:26, edited 2 times in total.

wlin
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 22:17

Acharya wrote:China will be crippled with this "strings of pearl" nonsense. India can disable these points and cripple Chinese economy for good.


Calm down, Man. It is not end of the world. I agree. It is nonsense. You can distroy it anytime you want. So what is the point?
We will countine to build ports here and there. We will help any country which want to do business with us to build their infra. We will countinue to trade with anyone who want to trade with us. If this country do not to do business with us, we will trade with their neighbours. You can make enemy with Chinese. That is fine, most Chinese do not know it anyway. But do not make enemy with money.

svinayak
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby svinayak » 05 Nov 2010 22:18

wlin wrote:

Hehe. So if we do not have a good relations with India, you will nuke us?

Good. So are you afraid of China getting nuked.
Is China comfortable with India. Is China comfortable with a future India
India is not afraid of China and India is comfortable with China.

Lalmohan
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Nov 2010 22:21

but here is the point wlin, indians dont want to make enemies with either china or money
but it would seem that we have more of a conscience than you do...

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Vivek K » 05 Nov 2010 22:28

Gentlemen, is there a point of feeding the troll? Admins, please put this guy out of his misery and let us focus back on the thread!

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 22:32

Lalmohan wrote:dumbest thing? but the CCP is making money by doing it, and growing prosperity for Chinese citizens
whats bad about that?


That is what the CCP leaders' thinking. If talking about strategy, does it make any sense? There are so many countries that we can sale power generators. Why put India at the top of the list? Why not the buttom of the list? Here is what we are doing right now, we sign the contract, we loan you the money, our price is good, our interest is low. we send our skilled workers to India. They lived on site and all their only mind there is to finish the project as quick as possilbe and go back home to counting money. In China, we pay engineer not on hour base but per job.

If not China, let us say Eurpoean company, you have a much higher price and deliveried slowly. Their loan cost your more. They send you 400-dollar-per-hour engineers to stay at five star hotel to install it.

Man, I am not saying that we do not do infra business with you. But is it better for us to help you in 2020s something when we can send you, let''s say, some 200 dollar-per-hour engineers.

Lalmohan wrote:btw - your retort of pearls against dalai lama makes no sense. its comparing apples with oranges


No I did not compare them. If you think that way, you have my apology.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Vivek K » 05 Nov 2010 22:35

Heck, what does this idiot think? India could easily buy these power generators from somewhere else? We are giving them such a huge order and this retard thinks that China is helping India!!!

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 22:36

Vivek K wrote:Gentlemen, is there a point of feeding the troll? Admins, please put this guy out of his misery and let us focus back on the thread!

Sorry for ruining the party. So anybody saying something that make you not feeling good is a troll.
Calm down. I am leaving.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Nov 2010 22:37

btw wlin, the chinese model you describe above is deeply resented in africa and the pacific islands where chinese 'investment' is increasingly seen as being of no benefit to the local people or economy but entirely about the profits of chinese companies... is that sustainable?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 05 Nov 2010 22:39

shiv ji,
I was in my post dealing only with the "regime" and have long stopped referring to the "Chinese people" where international relations are concerned. The Chinese people have no way of making their "inclinations" known - its the communist parties "selected" leadership and "spokespersons" who give all the "inclinations". as long as the "Chinese people" do not get to vote to in free and fair elections and change their governments if they do not like what they are doing - we can discount the "people" altogether. Whatever the Communist party standing committee and CMC decides is what will the Chinese as a "state" decide.

I am objecting to modeling this small decision making body in the same rationality considerations as that of India.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Vivek K » 05 Nov 2010 22:39

wlin wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Gentlemen, is there a point of feeding the troll? Admins, please put this guy out of his misery and let us focus back on the thread!

Sorry for ruining the party. So anybody saying something that make you not feeling good is a troll.
Calm down. I am leaving.

You got it right! Get out!

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby wlin » 05 Nov 2010 22:40

Vivek K wrote:Heck, what does this idiot think? India could easily buy these power generators from somewhere else? We are giving them such a huge order and this retard thinks that China is helping India!!!


Ask anybody in the industry? They will tell you the same thing. Price, delivery, loan items. Why India private companies come to China not somewhere else to buy those stuff? They must also be idiots.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby svinayak » 05 Nov 2010 22:41

Vivek K wrote:
Sorry for ruining the party. So anybody saying something that make you not feeling good is a troll.
Calm down. I am leaving.
You got it right! Get out!


Ha Ha !!! :rotfl:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 05 Nov 2010 22:46

Actually I support Shiv ji's observation on the vulnerability of the outposts the PRC has tried to build up - which also happen to be around India. All of Chinese investments in Pak, or Tibet, or even in SL, Myanmar, BD, Malaysia - all are at easy strike distance of India if and when China tries to militarize them. Further, those insfratsructure will also come in handy for India in the future! We would just like to carry on this "indignant" shouting about IOR pearls because it suits our tactical interests to do so!

(Maybe Chinese observers should keep a copy of Tsun Zu or even Mao's little book on guerrilla warfare handy while interpreting this statement! never really trust your enemy to do what he says he will do - isnt it a common point in both?)

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Karna_A » 05 Nov 2010 22:58

wlin wrote:Hehe. So if we do not have a good relations with India, you will nuke us?


wlin, giving Nookes and India specific missiles to TSP is an act of War.
China crossed a line when it gave civilizational destroying weapons to TSP.
Tanks, planes etc. were fine, but China overreached itself.
Its equivalent to India giving nookes to Dalai Lama and Tibetan Youth Congress or Taiwan.
So far it has not happened, but as rabidity of TSP increases and more 26/11 type things happen, India will get hardline leaders and it'll happen.

Imagine if a terror parliament attack kills most present MPs then who is second rung hardline leaders. Maybe a General or a Lt General.

One thing is assured that if Chinese Nookes or missiles fall on India from TSP, all Chinese cities that have metro will be radioactive wastelands for 10000 years. India will still survive as Indian culture is in its 700K villages. Chinese under CPC have forgotten their culture and are only interested in Dollars which is in its cities. Once all your cities(beijing, Shenzhen, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Hong Kong, Wuhan, Shenyang, Tianjin, Nanjing, Chongqing) are under mushroom clouds, then think of value in gifting TSP nookes.

Dalai Lama is as much an enemy of China as Mother Teresa was for India. Hope you get it.


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