People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 04 Nov 2010 09:04

TonyMontana wrote:
Dhiman wrote:
It's easy to defeat a one dimensional blood thirsty monster, than it is to defeat a bunch of rational individuals that uses cost/benifit analysis..etc to maximises benifits for China. Maximisation of Chinese interests legitimises the CCP and helps them stay in power.

I stand by my opinion that a hot war between India and China is more benificial to India, then it is to China. So if ever, China gets into a fight with India, we've already lost. So. A rational Chinese government will use cost/benifit analysis and other tools to analyise the situation and come to the same conclusion. Where as one driven by principle and ideology could make decisions not always resulting in maximisation of Chinese interests.

If you want to believe the CCP is a blood thirsty commie regime with a hard on for world domination, that is your prerogative. But don't be shocked when China keeps making rational decisions that is beneficial to her interests. (or correcting bad decisions made that is less benificial to China by not sticking to a hardline).

Fighting a war against India is beyond stupid and I've been telling the Indians on this board that for a while now. But you know the Chinese saying "once bitten by a snake, forever fear ropes." They've been bitten once already in '62, and now to them "all grass and trees are soldiers."

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 04 Nov 2010 09:13

TM,

You mean a CCP that is rationally bluffing

Must think they are terribly smart!

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 04 Nov 2010 09:14

DavidD wrote: Fighting a war against India is beyond stupid and I've been telling the Indians on this board that for a while now. But you know the Chinese saying "once bitten by a snake, forever fear ropes." They've been bitten once already in '62, and now to them "all grass and trees are soldiers."

I don't think it's fear that drives them. To be honest, I think it's actually a type of rationality. I think they believes, as we do, that a war with China would benefit India. (Maybe not benefit India, but China would definiately suffer more) Therefore, subconciously or not, they wish for it to happen. So they sees reaffirming signs everywhere.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Nov 2010 09:51

TonyMontana wrote: You and a lot of posters on BRF seems to think the CCP is a one dimensional boogeyman. I have a far more horrifying scenario for you. The worest case scenario for India is not a red-book waving commie CCP. The CCP that is more detrimental to Indian interests is one that is RATIONAL.

Is it a rational decision to support Pak nukes, thereby guaranteeing the viability of Pak's terror industry.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 04 Nov 2010 09:53

Pranav wrote:Is it a rational decision to back Pak nukes, thereby guaranteeing the viability of Pak's terror industry.

Is the continue survival of Pakistan as a political entity benefitual to China?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Nov 2010 09:54

TonyMontana wrote:
Pranav wrote:Is it a rational decision to back Pak nukes, thereby guaranteeing the viability of Pak's terror industry.
Is the continue survival of Pakistan as a political entity benefitual to China?

You tell whether the continued viability of Pak terror industry is beneficial to China, and if so, why.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Nov 2010 09:56

@ brihaspati

A frank question? Why bother with these low lifes even? What value do they bring to any discussion? They sound like a 10 year old editorial from Xinhua on a loop, sure one or two posts to test whether they are Chinese with a mind (rare species) or regular drone might be interesting, but whats the fun in repeatedly swapping down mindless drones?

Send me a mail if there is chankian reason behind it.

YaoMing · Post by **YaoMing** » 04 Nov 2010 10:52

"Bloody Map" tracks violent evictions

The goal of Bloody Map is to collect and list cases of violent eviction which have, or will, already faded from public view; some cases going back 2-3 years I had to dig up myself, but with your support, it'll be much easier. When I say that new housing is being built right now on land covered in blood, people know what I mean.

There are forceful evictions taking place now which need more media attention, Bloody Map on its own isn't an appropriate platform to that end. People can't expect that an effort like this will create enough attention to put an end to current forced evictions. The goal of this site is to present evidence allowing consumers to make decisions. If a day comes when this tiny map is able to make people within the interest chain of a particular eviction reconsider their actions, then it will have achieved its goal.

The project uses Google maps to geo-tag violent evictions, providing background info, media links, and even pictures for each incident. Two versions of the map exist, an "open" version where internet users can add tags themselves, and a "revised" version mapping only those incidents which have been confirmed by news media reports. The "open" version is a bit more interesting to look at, with various icons indicating the nature of each incident, as well as hundreds of user comments and ratings.

Here are a few explanations for the more prominent icons on the map:
* Fire - self-immolation by fire
* Bed - incident involving a death
* Volcano - agitated violence during eviction (for example, use of water hoses or violence to force people out, or use of things like Molotov cocktails in defense)
* Video Camera - media reporting on the incident

Bloody Map began the project only about three weeks ago on October 8. So far there are 70 confirmed incidents in the revised map

http://shanghaiist.com/2010/11/03/blood ... ctions.php

the map as pictured above doesnt include another self-immolation attempt (old man trying to stop another demolition) in Mishan city on October 30, 2010. That was captured in this youtube video (warning: disturbing video; NSFW):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyYu0ko6Rlw

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 04 Nov 2010 11:00

YaoMing wrote:"Bloody Map" tracks violent evictions

http://shanghaiist.com/2010/11/03/blood ... ctions.php

Welcome back, Xian Sheng! I hope you will let us in on some home truths more often. Too many of your compatriots here have nothing more to offer than the usual spin, and it's refreshing to have a genuine Chinese point of view now and then.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 04 Nov 2010 11:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyYu0ko6Rlw

Example of harmonious development preferred by CCP of PRC.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 04 Nov 2010 12:00

TonyMontana wrote:
DavidD wrote: Fighting a war against India is beyond stupid and I've been telling the Indians on this board that for a while now. But you know the Chinese saying "once bitten by a snake, forever fear ropes." They've been bitten once already in '62, and now to them "all grass and trees are soldiers."
I don't think it's fear that drives them. To be honest, I think it's actually a type of rationality. I think they believes, as we do, that a war with China would benefit India. (Maybe not benefit India, but China would definiately suffer more) Therefore, subconciously or not, they wish for it to happen. So they sees reaffirming signs everywhere.

I don't think that they think a war would benefit anybody, I think it might be more of a pride thing. Most Indians I know think that they got caught completely off guard in '62 and lost in humliating fashion a war they should've won or at least tied, which is true. They've been itching to get back at China for it, but they haven't found the excuses yet so they're trying hard consciously or unconsciously to look for it everywhere they can.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Nov 2010 12:19

DavidD wrote:
TonyMontana wrote:
I don't think it's fear that drives them. To be honest, I think it's actually a type of rationality. I think they believes, as we do, that a war with China would benefit India. (Maybe not benefit India, but China would definiately suffer more) Therefore, subconciously or not, they wish for it to happen. So they sees reaffirming signs everywhere.
I don't think that they think a war would benefit anybody, I think it might be more of a pride thing. Most Indians I know think that they got caught completely off guard in '62 and lost in humliating fashion a war they should've won or at least tied, which is true. They've been itching to get back at China for it, but they haven't found the excuses yet so they're trying hard consciously or unconsciously to look for it everywhere they can.

Don't analyze too much, it is much simpler. Try answering the question in my previous post, and we may make some progress.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Nov 2010 12:30

China using Pak to slow India's rise

Washington: Relation between India and China has deteriorated in last 18 months and is unlikely to get better, a former US Ambassador to India has said and he shared the perception of many Indian strategic thinkers that Beijing is using Pakistan to slow India's rise.

http://news.in.msn.com/international/ar ... id=4538242

"I think it's fair to say now that China-India relations are not very good and in fact have been deteriorating for about last 18 months," Robert Blackwill, former US Ambassador to India said in a conference call with reporters in a briefing on Obama's India visit.

"The Indians have a long list of Chinese transgressions, which in my judgement are accurate, having to do with Chinese policy on Kashmir and on the border dispute between the two countries and the so-called 'ring of pearls' of Chinese quasi-military installations in Bangladesh and in Sri Lanka and in Pakistan and so forth," he said. Blackwill is currently the Henry Kissinger Senior Fellow for US Foreign Policy at the Council on Foreign Relations - a prestigious US-based think tank.

"So the relations aren't very good between the two. The Prime Minister keeps saying, and I think deeply believes, that there's no reason why India and China could not have a good long-term relationship. But it isn't clear that same degree of enthusiasm for that end state is felt in Beijing," he said.

Many Indian strategists think that there's some evidence that China's preoccupation with Pakistan and its long-time close links is closely connected to the Chinese realisation that if India is preoccupied, if not pinned down by cross-border terrorism from Pakistan and problems in the India-Pakistan relation, that it will slow the rise of India as a great power.

"In other words, China using Pakistan to slow India's rise," Blackwill said.

"So China-India relations are not good, and I myself don't think they're going to get very much better on the geopolitical and security side. Now on the economic side, they're thriving, and of course, that's good for both countries," he said.

"The Indians have no interest in thoughts of containing China, a concept that one sees in the American media from time to time. No way faster to clear a Delhi drawing room than to begin to talk about containing China. "But what India would like is an agreement with the US that over the long term, the US and India will keep in close touch, both to the issue of Chinese behaviour and trying to decipher it, and second, close touch on trying to shape Chinese external behaviour in a positive way," Blackwill said.

Blackwill, the former US Ambassador to India, said that "so that's what the Chinese national security elite is waiting to hear from the Obama administration, which is, do you see us as a partner, if not the most important partner in Asia, in trying to help manage the rise of Chinese power, not in a confrontational way, but in a way that seeks to find instruments to produce Chinese behaviour which is more congenial to both US and Indian long-term vital national security interests?"

"That wish on the part of India to have that informal understanding with the Americans has been accelerated and intensified by Chinese external behaviour over the last year and a half, including, again, to add more, the South China Sea and so forth. So that's the way India sees China," he said.

"I think it would be true to say that the Indians regard the rise of Chinese power, at least most of the Indians, the national security experts -- the rise of Chinese power as the most important of the long-term strategic challenges facing India.

"And since at least I believe the rise of Chinese power is the most important long-term challenge strategic challenge facing the US, we ought to have a lot to talk about with the Indians," he said.

Source: The Indian Express

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 04 Nov 2010 12:35

Rudradev wrote:
YaoMing wrote:"Bloody Map" tracks violent evictions
http://shanghaiist.com/2010/11/03/blood ... ctions.php

Welcome back, Xian Sheng! I hope you will let us in on some home truths more often. Too many of your compatriots here have nothing more to offer than the usual spin, and it's refreshing to have a genuine Chinese point of view now and then.

I don't think you'll hear any spin on that. Just about everyone in China knows of or has been a victim of forced evictions. In fact, my own family(me included) was a "nail house" at one time. All the buildings around us were torn down and we were the last ones standing. Luckily, we were in Beijing and government officials wouldn't dare using violent methods there for fearing of a scandal spreading quickly to influential people, so we ended up with a compromised solution. People from other areas oftentimes aren't so lucky.

Looking it from a grand scale, a few are sacrificed for the greater good, but when you're the few being sacrificed, it sure ain't fun....

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 04 Nov 2010 12:46

TonyMontana wrote:
You and a lot of posters on BRF seems to think the CCP is a one dimensional boogeyman. I have a far more horrifying scenario for you. The worest case scenario for India is not a red-book waving commie CCP. The CCP that is more detrimental to Indian interests is one that is RATIONAL.

Tony now u sound like a Paki general to me, blackmailing the world that submit to CCP mischiefs or else if CCP goes down there will be total chaos and irrationality. Common dude why do you see the common Chinese people as totally incapable of deciding their future without the guardian angel called CCP. Are you telling me that except for CCP rest of the Chinese population is irrational and will display paki behavior?

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 04 Nov 2010 14:28

@tony
No indian wants a war with china. But indians will not forget what china has done in the past and what it continues to do so in the present. The suspicion is logical or as you like to say - "rational".

Like i said before, china's actions in the past and present have directly or indirectly resulted in thousands of indian lives. Let me ask you this... Does china forgive it's rational decisions of it's past and discontinue what its doing with pakistan and other neighbours in the indian subcontinent? No. China-knows-exactly-what-it-has-done. Your past actions force you to dictate your actions in the present. Now, do you understand why we use words like "karma" and "dharma"? It has nothing to do with anything "supernatural".

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 04 Nov 2010 18:27

TonyMontana wrote
Indians can do whatever you want. Why would I be worried about Indians doing nuclear evacuation drills? What I was talking about orginialy was that a War between India and China benefits India more then it does China. I will put money on China not starting a hot war with India purely for China's interests. That leave nuclear attack out of the question. You are the one that seems to be obsessed about a nuclear attack by China and I think, IMHO, you're even more obsessed about the resulting Indian nuclear retaliation against China.

This is what you actually wrote in response to my proposal to call the nuclear blackmailing bluff - as practised by Pak directly and Chinese support for that nuke blackmail by Pak - and prepare Indian people for consequences of such nuke attacks by Pak and China (since after such an act by Pak China will feel compelled to take out Indian capability to retaliate).

Why are you so concerned with the End Game? You talk like India is facing a existential crisis and is not a country taking great strides in advancing her economy and the welfare of her people. Is your wounded pride worth the suffering of millions of your own people? Is your urge to punish the Pakistanis and the Chinese so strong that you're willing to risk nuclear war to do it?

Just a question. Do you still live in India? Are you willing to gamble you and your families lives?

Here there is no talk of China "suffering" any "consequences" - you are extremely eager to try and make us scared of consequences on Indians. How else will India suffer nuclear war unless China joins Pak in unleashing nukes targeting Indian population concentrations? The standard emotional blackmailing that is used by those Indians eager to lick Chinese or Paki boots and western "sympathisers" of your country and its lackeys - to try and isolate Indian voices which urge India to build capabilities to neutralize such hostile threats. This helps to lull "rational" suspicions and needle political sentiments so that India leaves itself vulnerable to such nuclear blackmailing.

China has donated nuclear capability to Pak after getting it gratuitously from Russia, knowing fully well that the sole reason for Pak national existence justification is that it will carry on terror on India and kill as many Indians in standard old-school Islamist violent sadism as possible - Pak has no other national cause and the only cause that holds it together or the apparent unstable "stability".

So your promise to "stabilize" Pak on behalf of your party and "king" of your "middle kingdom" - exactly translates to promising to nuke India as and when Pak overdoes its sadism on India and India then come under pressure from its own people to retaliate. The nuclear decimation of Indian populations is the only threat that China can give to really stabilize the rabid dog that Pak has become.

Time and again you have clearly stated that you will support and join in any moves that PRC makes on India however unpleasant that may appear. This is no strawman argument - since your own statement implies that you will not hesitate to support or join in nuclear decimation of Indian populations either. Since China has continued to support the terrorist state of Pak with nukes - it becomes clear that China intends them to be used - and used against India, because sooner or later Pak will use it against India, (that is the only culmination of nukes in such an Islamist country) after committing increasingly worse atrocities.

It is your own desire that China does a hot-war on India because that is in the "interests" of China - but you want to try your best to raise the fears of nuclear fallout on Indians so they do not build up capacity to retaliate - as if by submitting and waiting patiently in the hope that PRC will not nuke India, India will escape your "stabilizing Pak" programme!

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 Nov 2010 18:36

^^+1, brihaspati garu.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Nov 2010 19:58

Reporting from China

some interesting insights into Chinese mentality - echoes a lot of what Tony Montana was saying - about central authority, only focus being on prosperity, happy for order via coercion, 'all we want is stability', etc.

worth a read

wlin · Post by **wlin** » 04 Nov 2010 22:09

brihaspati wrote: As far as I know the top level founders of the PRC were not engineers either. So running China does not seem to necessitate "engineering" skills. However what will be most interesting to know is to know how the current "most talented" crop came to be chosen into their hot-seats! Can you enlighten please? Take up the cases one by one of the regional party chiefs, and then move on to CMC and Standing Committee/Politbureau. We know more or less who belongs where, so it would immensely gratifying to know the process of their rise through the party hierarchy.

I am trying my best to outline the career path of the current 9 Politburo Standing Committee members. In fact, they are more predictable than you thought. You can safely predict the next 9 members with probably one or two misses. There are some hidden rules in the promotion of CCP officials.

Hu, Jintao
Tsinghua graduate, hydraulic engineering major, worked 5 years on Liujiaxia Hydro-power Station construction site in Gansu provience (one of the poorest provience in China) after graduation. In 1974，he joined Construction Department of Gansu and raised to vice department chief. In 1982, he was promoted to Communist Youth League Central Committee and finally become the First Secretary of CY Central in 1985. Then in 1987, he was assigned as Party boss of Guizhou provience(the poorest provience in China). Then in 1988, he became the Tibet party boss.
In 1992, he was appointed as the youngest Politburo Standing Committee member and spend next 10 years to take charge of day-to-day operations of the Central Committee, and the Central Party School.
In 2002, he became the 4th core of CCP.

Wu, Bangguo
Tsinghua graduate, EE major. Started work as EE engineer in Shanghai No3 Electronic Tube Factory and finally became the factory manager. His political career started at 1983 when he became a member of Standing Committee of the Shanghai party committee. From 1985 to 1991, he was deputy party boss of Shanghai. At that time, the Shanghai party boss was Jiang, Zemin and then Zhu, Rongji. From 1991, he became the party boss of Shanghai. In 1995, he got promoted to Vice Premier charging industry, energy, transporation and defence-industry sector. He was a Premier candidate but lose to Wen, Jiabao and became NPC chairman.

Wen, Jiabao
Geology major. Spend 10 years in Gansu Geo-mechanics Survey Team and became the team leader. Then spend next 5 years raise to the Gansu Provincial Geological Bureau chef. Then vice-minister of Geology and Mineral Resources in 1983. Then promoted to director of the Party's General Affairs Office in 1985. After 8 years on that post, he became member of Secretariat of the CCP Central Committee. In 1998, he became Vice Premier overseeing agricultural, financial and environmental policies. In 2003, he became Premier. He is the only one in Standing Committee that does not have any provincial governing experience.

Jia, Qinglin

EE major. Started career as Technician at 1962, raised to Director of Taiyuan Heavy Machinery Plant in 1983. Got assigned to deputy secretary of Fujian province in 1985. Then riased to Fujian governor in 1991 and party boss in 1993. In 1996, assigned to Beijing major and became Beijing party boss in 1997. In 2003 became Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference chairman. His job is handle the relation between CCP and other interest group of China, Religous, Taiwan affair and to some extent, foreign affair.

Li, Chuangchun

EE major in HIT. Started worked as EE engineer and became boss of Shenyang Electrical and Mechanical Industry Bureau in 1981. Then promoted to Shenyang’s vice major, major. He became the youngest provincial governor in 1986. After 5 years as Liaoning governor, he became governor and party boss in Henan province in 1991. In 1998, he became Guangdong boss and Politburo member. He has been governor and party for three big province, industry province Liaoning and agriculture province Henan, plus the economic giant Guangdong province. He was among the short list of Premier candidate or even the Party General Secretary candidate. He end up now charging all ideology related field like media, culture, communication, etc.

Xi, Jinpin
Next core, the 5th. Son of Communist veteran Xi Zhongxun. Tsinghua graduate, Chemical engineering major.

Because his father, he was sent to remote poor Shan’xi province at age 16 working as rural labor. He once boasted in one interview that he can carry 200 pounds of harvest grain for tens of miles on mountain trail without rest. With 6 years of intensive labor, he managed to became a CCP member which is very usual at that time. He said he has applied for membership over 10 times. And he managed to become village’s party leader and got recommendation to be enrolled into Tsinghua University in 1975. He had interests in using biogas to improve rural life. He was among the pioneers in using biogas in Shan'xi province. He claimed that is the reason why he wanted chemical engineering to be his major because he want to invent a device to better use biogas. Apperently, he got no need to invent it. When he graduated in 1979, his father returned to power. He became assistant of then vice premier, defense minister and Secretary-General of the Central Military Commission Geng, Biao. In 1982, he retired from PLA and went to one small poor county in Hebei province to become county party secretary which shocked a lot of people. He then moved to Fujian province in 1985. First as deputy major of Xiamen city, then party secretary of Ningde area, Fuzhou (capital of Fujian)party secretary, deputy Fujian Secretary. He became Fujian governor in 1999. IN 2002, Zhejiang governor, 2003, Zhejiang party secretary. In 2007, Shanghai party boss. Then win the crown in 2007 which surprised a lot of people.

Li, Keqing
Next Premier. The only member with no engineering background. He also worked as rural labor after high school in 1975. He became a CCP member and village party leader. Then went into Beijing University to study economics. He became a student leader and a member of the Communist Youth League Secretariat in 1982. His then boss was Hu, Jintao. He became the General Secretary of CYL in 1993 just as his mentor Hu did. In 1998, he was appointed to agriculture province Henan’s governor, then became party boss in 2003. Then moved to industrial province Liaoning party boss position in 2004. He was the front runner of next core. But during his tenure in Henan, several mine accidents happened and hundreds of people died. This caused him to lose a lot of votes and eventually cost him the core position. I guess the Premier is good enough for a loser running for core.

He, Guoqiang
Chemical Engineering Major. Started worked as one engineer at one Shandong fertilizer factory, rose through the ranks to the boss of Shandong Chemical petroleum industry department in 1984. Then became party secretary of Jinan City(capital of Shandong) in 1987. Then Deputy Minister of Chemical Industry in 1991. Appointed to Fujian governor in 1996. In 1999 became Chongqing party boss. In 2002 join Politburo as Central Organization Department director (The HR department of CCP, very powerful) Now is the boss of powerful Central Commission for Discipline Inspection, in charge of anti-corruption. He got the power to investigate any CCP member including Hu, of course that is theory.

Zhou, Rongkang

Geophysical exploration major. Started as one oil exploration engineer. He made some major contribution in finding some oil fields and rose in the oil industry ministry. Finally became boss of CNPC in 1996, then Minister of Land and Natural Resources in 1998, Sichuan party boss in 1999. IN 2002, became Politburo member and Minister of Public Security. Now he is probably one of the most powerful persons in China, being head of the Central Political and Legislative Committee. He take charge of all the security related matters inculding foreign affairs like Africa, Middle East, Korea, Soth Asia. I knew he just visited India and Wen, jiabao will visit India next month. In CCP sense, his visit is much more important than Wen's visit. He is the decider.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 04 Nov 2010 23:09

China pressures European governments over Nobel peace prize

China is pressuring European governments to avoid the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony for imprisoned democracy activist Liu Xiaobo and not make any statements in support of him, several diplomats said on Thursday.

The Chinese Embassy in Oslo has sent official letters to a number of European embassies in the Norwegian capital asking them not to attend the December 10 ceremony, two Western diplomats said.
...
...
According to one of the diplomats who said he has seen the letter, China cited its repeated position that Liu is a criminal for his advocacy of widespread political reforms and called the prize an interference in China’s internal affairs.

The letter also urged embassies not to issue any public statements in support of Liu on the day of the ceremony, he said.
...
...
Geir Lundestad, the secretary of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, declined to comment on the Chinese letter, but said it’s up to the ambassadors to decide whether to attend the ceremony at Oslo’s City Hall.

He said more than 1,000 invitations had been sent out, including to all ambassadors to Norway. Even the Chinese ambassador received an invitation, but returned it without answering, Mr. Lundestad said.

“All mail we have sent to the Chinese Embassy in Oslo has been returned unopened,” he said.
...
...

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 05 Nov 2010 02:05

DavidD wrote: I don't think that they think a war would benefit anybody, I think it might be more of a pride thing. Most Indians I know think that they got caught completely off guard in '62 and lost in humliating fashion a war they should've won or at least tied, which is true. They've been itching to get back at China for it, but they haven't found the excuses yet so they're trying hard consciously or unconsciously to look for it everywhere they can.

True. I guess emotions sometime overrides logic. Pride is a powerful feeling. There's plenty of Chinese that want to sack Tokyo as well. But thankfully, people in power has more rationality then your average Jingo on both sides.

Sidhant wrote: Tony now u sound like a Paki general to me, blackmailing the world that submit to CCP mischiefs or else if CCP goes down there will be total chaos and irrationality.

You misunderstand me. A rational CCP wouldn't blackmail the world like you said. It won't maximise benefits for China. Carrot and stick on the other hand...

Sidhant wrote: Common dude why do you see the common Chinese people as totally incapable of deciding their future without the guardian angel called CCP.
Are you telling me that except for CCP rest of the Chinese population is irrational and will display paki behavior?

Not Paki behavior. Indian behavior. I cite your own democracy as an example.

nvishal wrote:@tony
No indian wants a war with china. But indians will not forget what china has done in the past and what it continues to do so in the present. The suspicion is logical or as you like to say - "rational".

Suspicion is fine. A overwhelming urge to punish, no matter the cost, is not.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 05 Nov 2010 02:21

brihaspati wrote:
Here there is no talk of China "suffering" any "consequences" - you are extremely eager to try and make us scared of consequences on Indians. How else will India suffer nuclear war unless China joins Pak in unleashing nukes targeting Indian population concentrations? The standard emotional blackmailing that is used by those Indians eager to lick Chinese or Paki boots and western "sympathisers" of your country and its lackeys - to try and isolate Indian voices which urge India to build capabilities to neutralize such hostile threats. This helps to lull "rational" suspicions and needle political sentiments so that India leaves itself vulnerable to such nuclear blackmailing.

brihaspati-ji. I think there is a disconnect between my words as intended and your understanding of it. Please allow me to elabrate.

When you suggested that India should do nuclear evacuation drills, my understanding is that India is prepared for a nuclear exchange. This means that India is willing to esculate any tension to the point of nuclear exchange. My position on nuclear warfare has been consistent. It is unimaginable.

What you suggest, is the same as a total missile defense system in the US. Can you not say having a functional missile shield would signal to the USSR that the US is willing to risk a nuclear war? The whole concept of MAD, falls back on the fact that we'll both die. If you prepare yourselve to the point that you will not die, but only wounded, it defeats the purpose of MAD.

This might not be the most articulate way to express my idea. I hope more learned posters could elbrate what I'm trying to say, if there is still confusion.

brihaspati wrote:
So your promise to "stabilize" Pak on behalf of your party and "king" of your "middle kingdom" - exactly translates to promising to nuke India as and when Pak overdoes its sadism on India and India then come under pressure from its own people to retaliate.

That's pretty big leap of logic there. I'm not even gonna dignifiy it with an explaination. I think the fallacy is self-evident.

brihaspati wrote:
Time and again you have clearly stated that you will support and join in any moves that PRC makes on India however unpleasant that may appear. This is no strawman argument - since your own statement implies that you will not hesitate to support or join in nuclear decimation of Indian populations either.

But what if the CCP attacks the moon? What if they invent a zombie virus? OMG, I want to destroy all humanity! Stop creating these scenarios that is only rational in your head. This is the definition of a strawman argument.

brihaspati wrote:
It is your own desire that China does a hot-war on India because that is in the "interests" of China - but you want to try your best to raise the fears of nuclear fallout on Indians so they do not build up capacity to retaliate - as if by submitting and waiting patiently in the hope that PRC will not nuke India, India will escape your "stabilizing Pak" programme!

We need a strawman emoticon.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Nov 2010 02:37

TonyMontana wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
So your promise to "stabilize" Pak on behalf of your party and "king" of your "middle kingdom" - exactly translates to promising to nuke India as and when Pak overdoes its sadism on India and India then come under pressure from its own people to retaliate.
That's pretty big leap of logic there. I'm not even gonna dignifiy it with an explaination. I think the fallacy is self-evident.

If you raise a mad dog to kill us, and the mad dog attacks us, the mad dog will be shot second.

TonyMontana wrote:
brihaspati wrote:
Time and again you have clearly stated that you will support and join in any moves that PRC makes on India however unpleasant that may appear. This is no strawman argument - since your own statement implies that you will not hesitate to support or join in nuclear decimation of Indian populations either.
But what if the CCP attacks the moon? What if they invent a zombie virus? OMG, I want to destroy all humanity! Stop creating these scenarios that is only rational in your head. This is the definition of a strawman argument.

Any nuclear attack by the mad dog on India, is a PRC attack on India. Would you say, that the probability of mad dog attacking India is laughable and negligible?!

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 05 Nov 2010 02:45

RajeshA wrote: Any nuclear attack by the mad dog on India, is a PRC attack on India. Would you say, that the probability of mad dog attacking India is laughable and negligible?!

I want to see definative proof that the nuclear weapons of Pakistan has been lost from Chinese control and is in the hands of Pakistani elements that has no link to China.

I agree with you. The day Pakistan attacks India with nuclear weapons is the day China loses. Even if you don't attack China, Pakistan will be justifiably glassed. China loses strategic leverage and all our "investments" in Pakistan is lost.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Nov 2010 03:04

TonyMontana wrote:
RajeshA wrote: Any nuclear attack by the mad dog on India, is a PRC attack on India. Would you say, that the probability of mad dog attacking India is laughable and negligible?!
I want to see definative proof that the nuclear weapons of Pakistan has been lost from Chinese control and is in the hands of Pakistani elements that has no link to China.

If there is a Pakistani nuclear attack on India, I don't think there will be much poring over the circumstances: whether the attack was by a faction controlled by China, or previously controlled by China or never controlled by China. The only data point of relevance is that China gave Pakistan nuke tech and materials for a strategic purpose against India. That suffices.

CCP has put the safety of Shanghai in the hands of Islamist, mentally-deranged Pakistani Generals. If you think, that is clever strategizing, then feel free to think so.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 05 Nov 2010 03:06

RajeshA wrote: If there is a Pakistani nuclear attack on India, I don't think there will be much poring over the circumstances: whether the attack was by a faction controlled by China, or previously controlled by China or never controlled by China. The only data point of relevance is that China gave Pakistan nuke tech and materials for a strategic purpose against India. That suffices.

Okay. Okay. When Pakistan nukes India, India can Samson all she wants. (this sounds familar, did I say this before?) Just don't hold your breathe. Let's move on.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Nov 2010 03:12

TonyMontana wrote:Let's move on.

where? Are you sitting on hot coals or something?

CCP puts the safety of Shanghai in the hands of Islamist, mentally-deranged Pakistani Generals, and that is all you come up with?!

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 05 Nov 2010 03:33

RajeshA wrote: where? Are you sitting on hot coals or something?

I find this line of arguments counter-productive. We are discussing hyperboles.

RajeshA wrote: CCP puts the safety of Shanghai in the hands of Islamist, mentally-deranged Pakistani Generals,

[Citation needed]

I counter and say those nukes are safely under direct Chinese control. [Citation needed]

See where I'm going with this?

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 05 Nov 2010 03:44

^safely under chinese control. But why is it riding on paki's ass?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 05 Nov 2010 03:44

I counter and say those nukes are safely under direct Chinese control. [Citation needed]

TM ji, there is no citation required or known policy to nuclear response. True. But if it is understood that Paki Nukes have originated from Timbuktu or Burkina Faso. And lets say Paki's have the idiocy when they gone as is there stated policy to take India down..and let loose 150 nukes on India. Tell you what..India's response will be to take into account Timbuktu and Burkina Faso which gave them the Nukes. No citation required. Arihant and other Nuke carrying subs will be meant to be off Burkina Faso and Timbuktu. Apart from hidden and survivable shore based ones assets. No citation will ever be given to it. Neither it will be needed. Because we are certain Burkina Faso and Timbuktu did supply the Nuke material and tech to the Pockroach. Period. Full stop.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Nov 2010 03:51

TonyMontana wrote:
RajeshA wrote: where? Are you sitting on hot coals or something?

I find this line of arguments counter-productive. We are discussing hyperboles.

So we have hyperbole Chinese nukes in Pakistan.! What is hyperbole about nuclear posturing by countries. Nuclear Doctrines of others are determined by this.

TonyMontana wrote:
RajeshA wrote: CCP puts the safety of Shanghai in the hands of Islamist, mentally-deranged Pakistani Generals,
[Citation needed]

I counter and say those nukes are safely under direct Chinese control. [Citation needed]

See where I'm going with this?

So how do those nukes help Pakistan, if the Chinese do not let the Pakistanis use them? And if they don't help, why are they in Pakistan?

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 05 Nov 2010 04:40

RajeshA wrote:
So how do those nukes help Pakistan, if the Chinese do not let the Pakistanis use them? And if they don't help, why are they in Pakistan?

They're there to prevent India from destroying Pakistan.

As for India nuking China in response to Pakistan nuking India, I think both are pretty unlikely. Neither Pakistan nor India is suicidal, and other world powers would step in to ensure that things don't escalate, making it even less likely.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 05 Nov 2010 04:43

Let's get this straight, without circular argument. The nukes in pakistan are fully and safely under the direct control of china. So, how will it prevent India from destroying pakistan, when pakis have no say in the matter? Or are you implying chinese are pakis.

naren · Post by **naren** » 05 Nov 2010 04:44

Sanku wrote:Why bother with these low lifes even? What value do they bring to any discussion? They sound like a 10 year old editorial from Xinhua on a loop, sure one or two posts to test whether they are Chinese with a mind (rare species) or regular drone might be interesting, but whats the fun in repeatedly swapping down mindless drones?.

Do not underestimate the utility of dlones. Why ? By constantly harping on certain view points, they have made the association of where that view comes from and by extension who benefits from it. So, it becomes easy for us if any Indian expresses the same view to label them as Chini agints and commie sympathizers.

Rule of thumb when dealing with enemies - listen very carefully to their "advice" and do the exact opposite.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 05 Nov 2010 04:51

RajeshA wrote: why are they in Pakistan?

*Tags in*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_ ... l_overview

India's first nuclear test occurred on 18 May 1974.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_a ... estruction

Pakistan's Nuclear Weapons Program was established in 1974...

India raised. China called.

The Pakistani nuke is a reaction to Indian nukes.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 05 Nov 2010 05:17

DavidD wrote: As for India nuking China in response to Pakistan nuking India, I think both are pretty unlikely. Neither Pakistan nor India is suicidal, and other world powers would step in to ensure that things don't escalate, making it even less likely.

Why rely on outside forces? Is that a force of habit?
Also, in accepting that China needs Pakistan to checkmate India isn't the equation:

India == China + Pakistan?

Of course for the equation to hold one needs to apply a sanity function to the RHS

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 05 Nov 2010 05:21

Pulikeshi wrote:Why rely on outside forces? Is that a force of habit?

借刀殺人 - Kill with a borrowed knife

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Nov 2010 05:50

DavidD wrote:
RajeshA wrote:
So how do those nukes help Pakistan, if the Chinese do not let the Pakistanis use them? And if they don't help, why are they in Pakistan?
They're there to prevent India from destroying Pakistan.

As for India nuking China in response to Pakistan nuking India, I think both are pretty unlikely. Neither Pakistan nor India is suicidal, and other world powers would step in to ensure that things don't escalate, making it even less likely.

Ah! so you are so worried that your pet dog will get kicked even if you carpet bomb India with nukes - so that you are crying out from beforehand that the "world body" should intervene to protect your pet dog if you cannot manage? But the female of the canine species if left free to wander often go and have a litter - how many of that progeny will you be able to protect? what if the world does not bother!

Well good to know that there is another blind supporter of China supporting Pak knowing fully well that the sole reason for existence and the sole national purpose of Pak is to cause bloodshed of Indians. Which means you acknowledge that China is a supporter of terrorism and is prepared to protect with nuclear weaponry and threat of using it against India to protect this terrorism.

Thanks ! good supporter of the Terrorist State of China! We do need more such blind Chinese supporters of Pak coming out in the open! I am sure the Communist Party will reward you well for exposing the true nature of the current regime in China!

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 05 Nov 2010 06:09

TonyMontana wrote: I counter and say those nukes are safely under direct Chinese control.

OK, so a nuke attack by Pak is in reality a nuke attack from Beijing. Are you comfortable with that?

DavidD wrote: They're there to prevent India from destroying Pakistan.

What is your motivation in preserving Pak terror industry?