People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Christopher Sidor » 24 Sep 2011 13:00

^^^^
:roll: :roll:
Whats new Timothy ?? Need to divert attention? And what exactly will you be willing to do, if China is stealing "uncle's" IP?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby krisna » 25 Sep 2011 01:37

xposting from chinese military thread
viewtopic.php?p=1168925#p1168925
krisna wrote:

according to ccp media majority do support the one child policy. Human rights orgs lamblast this policy because there is no choice of individual freedom which is important.In fact studies have shown that improving the living standards automatically reduce fertility rates without coercion or punitive action.


ShauryaT
Therein lies the entire matter. As Indians, the first thing necessary is to stop looking at the Chinese and their society from a western prism. At least try. Once we do that, who are we to say, if in the best interests of the Chinese, this is actually not a more humane and beneficial policy for China for the times they live in?

It is so easy for these human rights groups to say these things, especially when they do not have to live there. I am sure the policy has Chinese critics too. But, for once try not to not look at China from the western prisms of democracy, individual rights, personal and political freedoms, etc. Please see the society for what it is, what it was, and what it has been through in current times and its trajectory.



Individual freedom has been an integral part of our nation since time immemorial not necessarily a western construct. western backed ngos have taken it to a new level with their unequal treatment according to their interests.
As an Indian I do abhor if GOI tells me to restrict my family to one. They can advise me about the family planning etc but not force me. One does not have to be a western backed ngos to say these.
Please avoid words like 'western views' etc.

ShauryaT
Once we do do this from a truly Indian perspective (what is that now, I know :() will we will begin to understand, what our plan for China ought to be. Anyways, this is a military thread. I have myself been critical of OT posts, but in this case mea culpa. Sorry.

would be happy to hear your Indian side to this.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby krisna » 25 Sep 2011 02:48

Farmers in China’s South Riot Over Seizure of Land
Rioters in the southern Chinese province of Guangdong have besieged government buildings, attacked police officers and overturned SWAT team vehicles during protests this week against the seizure of farmland, said officials in Shanwei, a city that skirts the South China Sea not far from Hong Kong.

The violence was the latest outbreak of civil unrest in China fueled by popular discontent over industrial pollution, police misconduct or illegal land grabs that leave peasants with little or no compensation. Such “mass incidents,” as the government calls them, have been steadily increasing in recent years, providing party leaders with worrisome proof that official malfeasance combined with a dysfunctional judiciary often has combustible results.

Last week, hundreds of residents protesting environmental contamination by a solar panel factory in Zhejiang Province stormed the factory and destroyed office equipment and vehicles. Weeks earlier, 12,000 people peacefully gathered in the city of Dalian to demand the closure of a chemical factory.

Wake up, my neighbors, if we don’t unite now, the land of our ancestors will be sold off to the last square meter! If we don’t unite now, our children will be homeless!” read one posting on the site.

“We will have no where to bury our parents or raise our children!”

Municipal governments, which own all land in China, largely depend on sales of long-term property leases to fill their operating budgets. In many cases, private real estate companies collude with officials to clear and develop the land as quickly as possible.

News of the demonstrations and photos and videos were quickly deleted from the Web by censors, but a few images persisted Friday. In one, demonstrators carried a banner that read “Give back my ancestors’ farmland.” A video lingered on overturned police vehicles, including one with graffiti that read “running dogs,” an insult once directed at perceived enemies of the people.

The province is China’s most populous and a manufacturing powerhouse that produces roughly one third of the country’s exports.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby harbans » 25 Sep 2011 11:36

Individual freedom has been an integral part of our nation since time immemorial not necessarily a western construct.


You are absolutely correct. From the upanashadic times Indian scriptures display Individuality to the highest levels. The mounds of Vaishali depict democratic processes prior the Greeks. Enlightenment philosophers in Europe acknowledge their borrowings in thought from Indian sources quite openly and honestly. Individual rights and Freedoms today are derivatives of our ancient thought processes and do not conflict. That is one reason why Westerners are surprised why India takes to democracy and value systems like a duck takes to water, even while most erstwhile British ruled states have slipped into totalitarianism. China is still under colonial slavery, of the mind at least. Maoism borrowed heavily from Western leftist concepts and destroyed whatever Chinese culture was there. Even though China gives lip service to Maoism today, it's totalitarian practises have not been swept aside. I find it amusing at times when some of our own try and convince us that Individual rights, freedoms, individuality are Western constructs.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby ShauryaT » 25 Sep 2011 23:03

krisna wrote:
Individual freedom has been an integral part of our nation since time immemorial not necessarily a western construct. western backed ngos have taken it to a new level with their unequal treatment according to their interests.
As an Indian I do abhor if GOI tells me to restrict my family to one. They can advise me about the family planning etc but not force me. One does not have to be a western backed ngos to say these.
Please avoid words like 'western views' etc.
The individual as the center around whom "rights", "protections" and laws operate is a decidedly western construct - to the exclusion or minimized view of relationships of this individual to his family, community and larger society. Decision making was never the individual's alone, it was a consultative process with established hierarchies, in order of people affected by the decision.

This is not to say, that individual freedoms were not part of Indian society, however, NEVER has Indian society made the individual as the center of all rights overriding the rights of the many. A society centered on individual rights seeks to create an egalitarian society as its cherished goal. Indian society is at best based on order of networks, if not hierarchies. In fact our entire construct of Dharmas, varnas and ashramas revolve around not the uniqueness of the individual but his relationships and obligations, duties and acts at various levels. Egalitarianism was never our cherished goal, as I understand our society.

The GoI, and its chosen constitutional constructs are a western inheritance and as such may not represent Indian values and indeed it chose these western tools as a device to achieve social amelioration of Hindu society and its practices - not to enshrine its values, which IMO are not enshrined in our current constitution.

Part of the difficulty arises as we have forsaken our own value systems at an institutional level and hence at a loss to properly articulate our issues and relationships with China.

Our issues with China are really at two levels. One is geo-political. Which is the easy one. This is at the level of the state and geography and the politics of material well being and interests of power.

The other is one of values. Where we really struggle due to our deracinations, however if History is our guide then it ought to be in the realm of spiritual messages and seeking to guide Chinese society and Chinese values close to Indian values by way of our unique spiritual message, which IMO should be India's unique message to the world, worth proselytizing - as we have done in the past.

What we have to realize, IMO is China has been a very hierarchical society. These hierarchies, primarily fraternal have evolved over a millennia. Individual rights is not a core issue for China and assumes as if, China does not know how to behave in a respectful and humane manner as a civilization and society. This is a charge no different from how a westerner beats upon India for being a casteist society and we rolling in our chaddis reacting to it.

If you feel that it is individual freedoms - as a core value - that is at the center of issues that India has with China then by all means, you should present that view.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby ShauryaT » 26 Sep 2011 04:40

harbans wrote:That is one reason why Westerners are surprised why India takes to democracy and value systems like a duck takes to water, even while most erstwhile British ruled states have slipped into totalitarianism. China is still under colonial slavery, of the mind at least. Maoism borrowed heavily from Western leftist concepts and destroyed whatever Chinese culture was there. Even though China gives lip service to Maoism today, it's totalitarian practises have not been swept aside. I find it amusing at times when some of our own try and convince us that Individual rights, freedoms, individuality are Western constructs.


You are correct most westerners are indeed surprised on why India takes to "democracy" and their value systems - so easily. It is a pro and a con for us. My position is, our civilization does not need any lectures or judging by westerners on "democracy", individual freedoms and rights, etc because, these are not issues for us. They never were.

China's struggle, which you call as the colonial slavery of the mind, is not as complete as one would think. One of Mao's laments to Nixon was that he has failed to bring proper revolution to the Chinese people as the old Chinese culture keeps on resurfacing to assert itself. Indeed in the beginning of this year, a 31 feet statue of Confucius was installed at Tianmenen square, in full view of Mao's mausoleum (he must be rolling in his grave :twisted: ). This statue has been removed subsequently.

As China progresses, she shall find her own ways. In the meanwhile, it will be best for us not to judge her from the prism of western peeves of democracy and freedoms. her struggle is not unlike our own deracinations. She does not need this lecture. Their biggest fear as a society is lack of order. It has been proven many times in their history that lack of control and order has been the harbinger of ill fortune for the Chinese peoples. It is a society, where the people knew their place in their hierarchy. A well oiled bureaucracy has been its backbone for a 1000+ years. The Chinese people value this stability over and above western peeves of freedoms. To assume these western peeves as universal values, equally important to all in all contexts will be a big mistake. It is likely that no matter what "form" of government takes control of China, their intrinsic characteristic of "control" and "stability" shall be its most established feature. Tamper with this bureaucracy that exercises this control and you shall wreck China.

The more we latch on to these western peeves, the less the Chinese respect us and accuse of being the claw of a crab, the crab being the US.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Cosmo_R » 26 Sep 2011 04:58

@ShauryaT ^^^: What we forget is that there is a real hunger in China for religion.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 24780.html

Faith in a better tomorrow based on following 'divine rules' is very much a part of the human experience.

The Chinese (at large) are as deracinated from their Buddhist roots as the pakis are from their Hindu ones.

The PRC are going to experience their Marie Antoinette moment very soon when the rural workers revolt against their exploitation and in your face bling by the coastal elite.

If only the GoI strategists (if that is not an oxymoron) would seize on this to exploit the chink (sorry) in the PRC armor...we (can) leverage Buddhism, Bahai(ism) and even Islam as spears to erode the monolithic PRC juggernaut (Jagannath).

These could be new opium wars (Marx etc).

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shyamd » 26 Sep 2011 22:48

Why we should be friends
Jayanth Jacob, Hindustan Times
September 24, 2011
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First Published: 22:59 IST(24/9/2011)
Last Updated: 23:01 IST(24/9/2011)
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Silk and porcelain may have given way to telecom and heavy machinery, but trade has always played a role in ties between India and China, which today represent one-third of humanity and the world’s two fastest-growing economies.

Yet with the two countries sparring every now and then on a
range of issues (see below ‘Sticking points’), their common commercial interests often get obscured. These interests will hopefully get a healthy boost when representatives of both countries meet tomorrow in Beijing for the first India-China Strategic Economic Dialogue. (See at the bottom of the page ‘Let’s talk shop’).

“Both countries’ are preoccupied with transforming their domestic economies,” explained an Indian official who deals with economic ties between the two nations and declined to be named.

“As long as both understand that this goal remains a peaceful peripheral one, the elements of competition can be managed and those of congruence built upon,” he said. “Conversely, any clash can impede both the countries’ progress. Neither wants that; the costs of an escalation in tension are too high.”

India’s trade with China is likely to rise to $70 billion this year from $61.74 in 2010, and is expected to hit $100 billion by 2015. India is a bit concerned that it has a deficit that is growing. China dominates global trade, selling and buying in a month more than India does in a year, and it is the number one or number two economic partner of all big economies. India also wants Beijing to remove market barriers for its pharma and IT products.

“The Chinese are offering quality product at good prices,” said another official. “And we are importing huge machinery and exporting primary products. That can’t help the deficit.” Yet overall, there is a feeling of optimism. Many Indian companies, for example, find Chinese export loans attractive because of their low interest rates. For instance, Reliance Power has a commitment of term loans worth $1.11 billion from the Bank of China, China Development Bank and Export Import Bank of China.

A new CEO forum, to be co-chaired by the Reliance Group’s Anil Ambani is expected to meet soon and boost econmic ties. There is also mutual, if not often articulated, respect. Indians acknowledge that this country’s infrastructure needs with respect to power and telecom equipment can be met only by Chinese manufacturers.

On the flipside, the Chinese are curious about India’s capital market. “In China, everything is state-controlled so people there wonder how so many Indian companies raise funds in the capital market,” said one official. “They wonder about our IT prowess too.”

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 27 Sep 2011 11:31

India-China to open up markets
India and China agreed to boost economic cooperation, open up their markets and improve the investment environment for each other's companies during the first-ever Strategic and Economic Dialogue (SED), which was held here on Monday.

A particularly promising outcome of the first SED, officials said, was agreement to have closer cooperation between the two countries' railway networks, which could subsequently pave the way for the involvement of Chinese companies in proposed plans to build six high-speed rail corridors in India.

Energy efficiency

The two countries also agreed to learn from each other's development experiences to face common challenges, such as improving energy efficiency, tackling water scarcity and combating climate change.

Montek Singh Ahluwalia, Deputy Chairman of the Planning Commission who led the Indian delegation, described the talks as an important first step of a “knowledge transfer” that could bring substantial benefits to both countries.

“China's economic reforms began a decade and more before those of India,” he told his Chinese counterpart Zhang Ping, who heads the powerful National and Development Reform Commission (NDRC), China's top planning body, at the start of the dialogue. “We in India are deeply impressed by your progress and we believe there are many lessons from your experience that may be valuable to us.”

The dialogue, said Mr. Zhang, wound enhance trust and promote the “long-term and steady development” of both economies and have a “profound impact” on both the countries. The two countries agreed to initiate the SED dialogue during Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao's visit to India in December. The next round will be held in New Delhi in April 2012.

The SED was set up with the objective of increasing coordination on macro-economic policies and to provide a platform for both countries to leverage common interests and shared developmental experiences. The idea behind the dialogue, officials said, was to look at the larger picture and go beyond trade. A separate Joint Economic Group dialogue, between both Commerce Ministers, has been set up to tackle trade issues, including the widening imbalance in China's favour.

Monday's dialogue featured three specific working groups, on the railways, water, and energy efficiency and the environment.

Officials said the railways held particular potential for cooperation.

India is keen to learn from China's development of its freight network, which was, two decades ago, in a similar position to India's.

Freight traffic

Today, China's freight traffic is four times that of India's.

Another area of possible collaboration is on high-speed train technology. China has built the world's biggest high-speed rail network in recent years, and has expressed interest to play a role in proposed plans for a network of six high-speed corridors in India.


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby harbans » 27 Sep 2011 11:53

however, NEVER has Indian society made the individual as the center of all rights overriding the rights of the many.


Shaurya Ji, some reservations about that. I think the Individuals direct relationship with God head, the link that the Individual soul is ==God does imply inherently the notion of the Individual being central to everything to the ultimate itself. There's no higher notion to individuality than is referenced to in Indic scriptures.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby ShauryaT » 27 Sep 2011 13:56

harbans wrote:
however, NEVER has Indian society made the individual as the center of all rights overriding the rights of the many.


Shaurya Ji, some reservations about that. I think the Individuals direct relationship with God head, the link that the Individual soul is ==God does imply inherently the notion of the Individual being central to everything to the ultimate itself. There's no higher notion to individuality than is referenced to in Indic scriptures.
No disagreement, at that level. No other system, teaches mankind to look within to find god the way Indian systems do. But the above statement was not in that context. In the context of societal relationships, the individual, while retaining his space, was also someone with relationships, obligations and rights to the many. In that context, individual rights and freedoms, were not the center of attention. His obligations and duties were established in relationship to his gunas, ashramas, varna and dharma. His rights in this context were never an issue of much debate, it was inherent. The debate around the rights of the individual was not an issue as it was never a point of debate, is my point.

Individual rights taken to its extremes, as in modern times establishes an egalitarian society - without societal rights, duties and obligations, as we have in the west and India headed in that direction. A government has to come in to create other structures through laws and obligations taking over the larger roles in some cases. It is a different set of economic and technology paradigms in play and operation and hence to do a comaprision would be unfair.

However, to treat this type of a value system and society as "universal" is far from the truth is my point. There are other systems, which are humane and evolved, mature and civilized and can come to their own evolutions as per the needs of modern economic and technology variables demand. China has deep hierarchical and fraternal roots, evolved for 1000's of years. They should be allowed to evolve in their own ways and in many ways, I feel they shall, probably better than India would or has so far. To that extent, this dumbing down of values to individual rights, democracy, individual freedoms and the rule of law are limited constructs - as far as a mature society is concerned and not the net-net of values.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 27 Sep 2011 18:41

Even as India & China open up markets, practically one-way only, AK Antony says that the Chinese are aggressively shoring up defences all along the LAC
"I agree with you on that China is aggressively building its capabilities in its areas. In the past, India was negligent in strengthening its capabilities in the eastern sector, " {this coming after the 1962 humiliation and persistent anti-Indian sentiments and claims from PRC, is simply unacceptable and a dereliction of duty by all governments which ruled after that episode} he told reporters when asked about China strengthening its military set-up along the Line of Actual Control.

Instead of "grumbling" over the issue, India has started modernising it own capabilities by taking steps such as raising new Army divisions and Advanced Landing Grounds (ALGs) for aircraft operations, he said on the sidelines of the Coast Guard Commanders' Conference here.

Asked about recent incursions taking place from the Chinese side, the minister said this was due to differences in perception of boundary which was not properly demarcated.
He went on to add that the overall situation along the border was "peaceful".

"The main thing is that in the absence of a demarcated border, there is a difference of perception. Sometimes incursions take place when they go to areas which they think is with them and sometimes we also do that,{That's nice to hear and I hope it is true as well unlike the demands for extradition of Headley which WikiLeaks exposed as a facade to fool Indians}" he said.

Antony said as a follow-up to the decision taken by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Chinese President Hu Jintao in April this year, a joint mechanism to tackle border issues would be established in the next few months.

"There was an incident (of incursion) like that few months back and we have conveyed our concerns to them.... Of late, we have taken a step to constitute a mechanism to tackle these issues on the border. I am hopeful that with this mechanism, which will come in few months, things will improve," he said.

The mechanism will explore areas of cooperation in border areas like border trade and movement.

The minister said the proposed mechanism will comprise of all stakeholders including the "military and paramilitary elements and will be coordinated by the external affairs ministry."

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 28 Sep 2011 12:15

India and the South China Seas: Need for a second look - RS Kalha, IDSA
There is no point in acting with bravado when we do not have the necessary military capacity to take on the Chinese in the South China Seas. It would be very wise indeed to take a hard second look at our involvement in the disputed waters of the South China Sea!

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby RajeshA » 29 Sep 2011 02:16


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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby aditya » 29 Sep 2011 06:22

SSridhar wrote:"The main thing is that in the absence of a demarcated border, there is a difference of perception. Sometimes incursions take place when they go to areas which they think is with them and sometimes we also do that,{That's nice to hear and I hope it is true as well unlike the demands for extradition of Headley which WikiLeaks exposed as a facade to fool Indians}" he said.


Piskologically speaking, the fact that it is nice to hear is what is worrisome. I don't believe it. Why on earth would it be admitted to?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby aditya » 29 Sep 2011 17:57

Secret note to MEA says Chinese troops made 50 incursions into Indian territory in three months

A secret note to the ministry of external affairs (MEA) reveals that the personnel of People's Liberation Army (PLA) have been violating Indian borders almost at will.

The secret report says that there were as many as 50 incursions by the Chinese troops in the last three months. In some instances, Chinese troops even intruded as much as 7 km inside the Indian territory.

On September 16, 2011, there was a face-off at the Demchok post when the Chinese came close to Indian patrol. The Indians disengaged and performed a banner drill, but the Chinese did not withdraw.


Na rahe incursion, na baje piskology.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby sum » 29 Sep 2011 21:48

The Indians disengaged and performed a banner drill, but the Chinese did not withdraw.

What is a banner drill? :-?

And if the Chinese didnt withdraw for the drill, what finally caused them to go back, boredom?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby paramu » 30 Sep 2011 03:11

aditya wrote:
SSridhar wrote:"The main thing is that in the absence of a demarcated border, there is a difference of perception. Sometimes incursions take place when they go to areas which they think is with them and sometimes we also do that,{That's nice to hear and I hope it is true as well unlike the demands for extradition of Headley which WikiLeaks exposed as a facade to fool Indians}" he said.


Piskologically speaking, the fact that it is nice to hear is what is worrisome. I don't believe it. Why on earth would it be admitted to?

British policy in the 1950 need to be understood to find out what is happening LAC

Chau En Lai figured out the India in those years was not coherent and made the decision to expand into TIbet and also challenge Indian state and geography. This policy is always used to change India and Indian state,
PRC is following the policy of the British in defining what India SHOULD BE.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2011 08:50

Suppiah wrote:Shiv-ji, I am not exactly suggesting a copyright violation here, but perhaps some small credit should be offered where due... :lol: exactly what I also said a few posts back....

Pak-China relationship is not just a story of one-sided unrequited love, it is also slavish love on one side and contempt bordering on disgust on the other side, especially at people to people level. You are using the example of whore I, IIRC, used the example of a lab assistant handling stool sample - they are doing it for business, not that they are in love with stool. That does not mean they bring the sample home to be proudly exhibited to their family. The disgust for beards and their obsession with religion extends amongst common populace in China, HK and other Chinese societies...where over the surface religion is basically non-existent unless you are talking of the god in green-back. Same with Pakbaric anmalistan - China relationship. Pakistan's utility is in being trouble maker visavis India and Unkil. No more..

That is why I also say India has to rise the cost of this relationship so that one fine morning Comrade Lee/Jiang/Ho or whoever wakes up and smells the sh.t.


Suppiah your post reminds me of some thoughts I have had about the way the Chinese have tried to exert their power over the decades. China like India has produced a lot of "hot air wisdom" over millennia - like the Chinese Sun Tzu and Indian Chanakya-neeti. I call it "hot air wisdom" because neither China nor India have, in the past done colonization and enslavement of people on a large scale far away from their home territory. In he past both China and India have been "soft power" powers, unlike Japan and the European states or even Islamic states. Hence I call it "hot air wisdom"

It was only after Mao's revolution that China was set on a more aggressive external path where the Chinese fought the Amercans in Korea, Indian, the Russians and the Vietnamese, apart from conquering Tibet like any expansionist colonial power. Despite Mao's bitter opposition to colonial powers he seems to have taken several leaves out of he colonial books. Mao and his successors also got China into the game of having proxy states. But China did not get very far with proxy states China got only two of them North Korea and Pakistan, both incidentally bordering China. This is nothing n comparison to the distant proxies created through history by Britain, Germany, Spain, France, Portugal and later the US and USSR.

Perhaps china entered the game too late. The world had already been divided up by great powers and there was not much room for upstarts. Pakistan and North Korea have some severe problems if anyone holds them as proxy states. For one thing both border China. That is a mistake. A proxy state should share no borders with you so that any mess in that state should not spill over into your country. China's wooing of Pakistan was a copycat action of what the West was doing in holding proxies. But the uS was able to support and hold Pakistan for much longer. China was a late, half hearted entrant. And both the US and China were propping up Pakistan against far greater powers, A win might have been great for them, but losing meant that the proxy state would be screwed. China may now be moving out of the "let us copy the west" paradigm in having proxies to a new and more sustainable Chinese paradigm

Just a random ramble

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby RajeshA » 30 Sep 2011 09:32

Suppiah wrote:That is why I also say India has to rise the cost of this relationship so that one fine morning Comrade Lee/Jiang/Ho or whoever wakes up and smells the sh.t.

Sometimes one does not fully appreciate how much land China has captured in the heart of Asia - land which is not some colony on the other side of the globe, and may be of use for its resources only, but rather land which contributes directly to the defense of the homeland.

A few maps to make this clear

Image

The approximate extent of China proper during the late Ming Dynasty, the last Han Chinese dynasty.

Image

The approximate extent of the Han Chinese ethnicity, denoted in brown.

What the Chinese are practicing is not just expansionism, but forward defense. So even if they build cross-border relationships with Pakistan, which they deem would be of strategic importance to them, does one really think, that it in any way jeopardizes the security of China Proper - of Beijing, of Shanghai, etc.

We like to make comparisons between India and China and about the commonality of "hot air wisdom", but the truth is India has contracted, being forced to give up core parts of the country - Indus Region, the Ganga Delta, and much of our Civilizational outreach into South East Asia and Tibet. We have contracted, while China has increased its size manifold.

Today China sits in PoK. Beijing sits in PoK! Its missiles stare down at our heartland, not too many kilometers away, while we still have no means to threaten their major cities.

So let us not demean the wisdom of Chanakya or for that matter Mao! These people did something for their Civilizations unlike who came later in India and asked whether a blade of grass grew somewhere! :evil:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2011 09:56

RajeshA wrote:
What the Chinese are practicing is not just expansionism, but forward defense. So even if they build cross-border relationships with Pakistan, which they deem would be of strategic importance to them, does one really think, that it in any way jeopardizes the security of China Proper - of Beijing, of Shanghai, etc.


Forward defence is an interesting term for expansionism. What the Chinese are practising is expansionism. This stands in contrast to the history of China which is soft power and hot air. It wasn't Sun Tzus hot air but Mao's action that got them expanding. It was after Mao's revolution that China started expansionism (OK "forward defence" if you like)

Chanakya neeti is mostly hot air because it is not applied by Indians or nor understood, although it is tomtommed a great deal. It's like telling stupid people "Be clever" or urging weak people lacking in self confidence to "be strong". India is contracting and will continue to contract precisely because we are great admirers of others greatness and we choose to stand in awe of everyone else's achievements and choose to bemoan and highlight our weaknesses. We are always ready to make way for greater powers by comparing their greatness with our weakness. China is stronger. US is stronger. Islam is stronger. Pakistan is stronger. We are weak. We have contracted. We are incapable. We have too many traitors. We are bad.

In my view the first step in being a power of note would be to demean others and highlight oneself. to gain confidence in one's own ability to go forward from where one happens to be. That is what China is doing after Mao. Indians have not figured that out.

Just my personal opinions

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby RajeshA » 30 Sep 2011 10:03

shiv wrote:India is contracting and will continue to contract precisely because we are great admirers of others greatness and we choose to stand in awe of everyone else's achievements and choose to bemoan and highlight our weaknesses. We are always ready to make way for greater powers by comparing their greatness with our weakness.

In my view the first step in being a power of note would be to demean others and highlight oneself. to gain confidence in one's own ability to go forward from where one happens to be. That is what China is doing after Mao. Indians have not figured that out.

Just my personal opinions

shiv saar,

IMHO, wisdom is universal. All humans are capable of wisdom whether it is Chanakya, Sun-Tzu, Mao or somebody else. We should take wisdom from where ever it is available.

Of course, if the wisdom comes from personalities who have taken birth in the Indian Civilization, one has an added sense of pride. But that pride should not make us show contempt for wisdom from elsewhere.

The main thing is not the source of wisdom but the target of wisdom! We have to target all that wisdom to further India's strategic interests - for the nation, for the civilization and for the people, and if that effort ends up furthering the interests of humanity, then that is an extra bonus.

So if Mao can teach me something, I'll take his wisdom too!

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2011 10:35

Rajesh you know the expression "casting pearls before swine". Chanakya neeti and Sun Tzu are often examples of pearls before swine. The swine do not see their value because they are incapable of using that wisdom.

I believe that Indians are a mentally subjugated nation. We do not have any confidence in the abilities of our own people even as we go out of the way to highlight everyone else's achievements. We are unable even to convert our grievances and losses into anger because we do not see the point in killing or fighting fom our subjugated state among losers.

Not everyone is capable of reacting to a grievance with anger and intention to fight. As far as Indians go a constant listing of Indian weaknesses and losses only adds to loss of self confidence in Indians and a great admiration for others. Or fear, if the "other" happens to be an adversary. Indians do not have Pakis or Chinese or Americans to work with in India. We have Indians. That nation needs to be told that they can do things. Telling them that they are useless, powerless gits led by traitors is wrong. But across the board among Indians any attempt at showing any confidence is put down with a lecture on how weak Indians are and a litany of stories of losses and defeats. If this is Chanakya neeti then Chanakya neetis is wortheless. if it is not Chanakya neeti, then they are pearls before Indian swine who cannot use or appreciate those pearls.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Philip » 30 Sep 2011 11:49

Shiv,Indians "Mentally subjugated".Quite right! This morning had a piece about the Delhi Metro,where it "went off the rails".Comparing it to the Japanese model,where the Japanese developed the system on their own,while we just imported it from abroad."The firang is always right",a white skin opens doors and people bow in respect to the firang is opar for the course in India.Look at the way in which Hillary Clinton was lavished on her last visit here,as if she was a white maharani,while other FMs from other countries with not so lightly coloured skin recive a far less fawning welcome.In fact,the book should've been thrown at Hillary for US diplomatic duplicity vis-a-vis Pak.It is only when Pak shafted the US in its nether end that Uncle Sam squealed and decided to use the stick.

Now the secret note about Chinese intrusions is very worrying.I can understand the GOI's reluctance to keep it quiet.Thanks to the sorry leadership that we have (and Sanku,I'm not going to insult eunuchs and molluscs again!),we are almost completely unprepared.
One reason why the PRC is upping the ente is that it in 100,000 troops into Tibet before the IA can blink and an invasion from the PRC-and this time they will not return home,will devastate the nation and bury the Congress party forever.SG will have to flee to Italy with her goods and chattels.It will not tolerate a second "Himalayan blunder" from the same family.Therefore the court of SG is scared sh*less about a spat with the PRC and prefer to let the nation suffer the indignation of Chinese intrusions.

At this moment in time,we are in a process of modernising and augmenting our forces.However,AKA is so slow off the block gingerly taking one step at a time to avoid stepping on a mine,that the inordinate delays in decision-making and procurement are dangerously affecting the armed forces.With "Surrender Singh" as "chief of staff",who understands least of all,being well-protected by his personal army of black cats et al,on the one hand internal security and the individual safety of ordinary Indians faced with terrorism (even before 26/11 down to the latest Delhi blasts) and the menacing Chinese intrusions on the other,we are in a very vulnerable position as of now,especially on the ground in the Himalayan heights.

One reason why the PRC is upping the ante is that HH the Dalai Lama trumped them by offloading his temporal power to the Tibetan diaspora.They had hoped that he would kick the bucket and "poof" would go the authority of the Tibetans of their land and legitimacy of their cause.The Chinese intimately know the importance of icons and symbols,far more than Indian babudom and political paanchewers.Stalin once derisively asked the Q,"how many divisions does the Pope have?" The same could be asked of HH the DL the answer could be "how many does he need?".His moral authority transcends mere numbers of footsoldiers.It inspires his followers and steels them against the inhumaniy of the Han Chinese.In similar measure do the Uighurs look to their religion and ethnicity to face the Han invaders.ow that HH the DL has handed over temporal pwoer to his followers,after his death they will be free to demand Tibetan independence and lobby the world's nations to support their cause.There will be many nations who will willingly -perhaps more in secret support their cause.The very fact that they exist in the sanctuary of India enrages the PRC.

For China,securing the immediate "ground" on the borders is the highest priority.To accomplish that the Chinese believe that attack is the best form of defence and go aggro against smaller nations.Thus they make the absurd claim to the Spratlys,in the Indo-China Sea,which lie close offshore to the Vietnam,Phillipines and Indonesia,a far disatnce from the Chinese coast.On the ground on the Himalayan front,China is doing the same.Trying to push India back into a sub-continental straitjacket,through efforts at encirclement with the help of base agreemenst with our neighbours.

However,the Chinese aggro and intrusions cannot be concealed.Surrender Singh's lies and chicanery have been exposed to all.The locals who are affected the most are rising up in alarm and the issue is now a national talking point.How the GOI and the surtrender regime will handle the crisis is anybody's guess.Paralysis in decision-making appears to be the norm.One sincerely hopes that the imminent visit of AKA to Russia results in the firming up of many important defence cooperative issues and orders for sorely needed eqpt.,apart from a serious discussion with his Russian hosts as to the alarming Chinese military actions inimical to India.A Chinese "victory" of sorts over India would also alarm the Russians who have not forgotten Mao's border spat with it and its geo-strategic ambitions to supplant Russia as the world's second superpower.The GOI should come clean about Chinese instrusions and inform the people,taking suitable diplomatic action against the PRC.

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=5476483

Leh residents fear Chinese take over
The inaction of central government even after repeated incursions of Chinese troops into Leh has struck apprehensions in the hearts of local population. They feel that the government is sleeping and is quite weak,

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Suppiah » 30 Sep 2011 12:32

There are several layers and nuances of Chinese 'aggression' and current behaviour as well as historical behaviour. While I do not claim to be an expert on Chiskology, I could venture to separate the layers into the following

1. The inherent ethnic Han chinese layer - the most harmless of the lot; As anyone that has been to TW/other parts of Asia can attest, Chinese are basically soft spoken, non opinionated and keep the focus on themselves and families. Plus they are actually nice people to be friends with and can return favours and goodwill with honesty. However, this layer has negative aspects too - primarily a slight feeling of superiority over people of color and people of poorer countries. The key word here is poor, not color because even ethnic Chinese from mainland that look poor (and the boorish that look neo-rich) are dealt with even more contempt than, say, an Indian. I have seen this several times in HK and elsewhere.

2. The 5,000 year history, Confuse-ius layer: Gives a certain amount of pride, and in some fringe elements, a sense of arrogance about , once again, superiority.

3. The recently minted economic success layer: This is fairly new. If you recall, the word 'Asian' often enough used in E. Asia, was often used more to camoflague than to advertise or exhibit pride in origins. After Tiananmen and when China was dirt poor, it was not good to be known Chinese and hence 'Asian' was invented. Now there is no such hesitation, and one often sees 'Chinese' being used in ethnic sense, without much baggage.

4. The commie natural arrogance, contempt for truth/history/others layer: This is the most important layer.

Now, when Jiang Zemin gloats to US President (or was it Russian?) that he can crush the Indians anytime he chooses and makes contemptous remarks, you can put parts of the remarks in various layers, but mostly the Layer 4.

The last layer is also responsible for the swagger, arrogance and bluster that one often sees from China. The confidence that grows from arrogance and not genuine strength. The confidence that grows from overestimating the leverage and importance of the leftist rapist goon mass murderer stooges, their yellow puppet and fake intellectual class and the useful idiots they can buy over. The arrogance that stems from the fact that a weakened India can be crushed like a cockroach and made to sit in one corner of SA, crying like a widow and not do anything about it.

Layer 4 and 3 can be easily defeated with time. That should be India's goal. That will make Layer 2 also go away as we do have 5,000 year culture which a genuine Chinese appreciates. Layer 1 is a universal malady, so no point talking about it.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Suppiah » 30 Sep 2011 12:57

Shiv / et al..yet another weakness of Chinese imperialism, is that they just don't have the so-called soft power that imperial powers had. Spain brought with it the Catholic faith - even if it was imposed with the sword and pain of death and torture, today the Filipinos (to site an example) mostly remember their colonial masters with pride and goodwill for that reason. Unkil and its poodle across the pond has brought to the table pop music, movies, language, administration skills, railways, education and what not. Which is why we are not their sworn enemies, despite suffering 400 years of colonialism. China has nothing. How many Pakis listen to Chinese pop or watch HK flicks? Even in Chinese dominated societies, China's soft culture does not cross ethnic boundaries. Hardly any non-Chinese Malaysian, Filipino or Thai even bother to listen to or watch Chinese movies/pop. For them it is alien. That makes China's job tough. It can only buy support, not get it free of charge, unless it is the Stalinist rapist goon traitors of India we are talking about.

India, for all its poverty and slums and natural and man-made disaster that fills TV screens on daily basis, has soft power that goes beyond ethnic boundaries.

To summarise, we have much better chances of being an imperialist power. China's power is as much as its cheque book can bear.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby RajeshA » 30 Sep 2011 13:10

Image

:mrgreen:

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2011 20:20

X-posted...
paramu wrote:http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/doug-casey-how-prepare-when-money-dies


TGR: Many pundits and economists still project growth in China, albeit at a lower rate, and anticipate further expansion of the middle class.

DC: The 21st century will be the Chinese century, but the distortions and misallocations of capital that have occurred over the last 30 years—notwithstanding the truly phenomenal progress the country has made—are serious and have to be washed out. I am a huge bull on China for lots of reasons, but I am bullish for the long run. I think it is going to go through the meat grinder over the next 10 years. I don't know how it will come out; maybe China will break up into five or six different countries. Actually, that would be a good thing. Most of the world's nation-states are artificially constructed and too big to be manageable as political entities.

TGR: Your outlook on China fits right in with something you've been saying for years—about this being the "Greater Depression," which is also the topic of your upcoming presentation at the sold-out Casey Research/Sprott Inc. "When Money Dies" summit next month in Phoenix. Your opening general session talk is entitled, "The Greater Depression Is Now." We are now four years into it, based on your 2007 start date.

DC: Actually, depending on how long a historical scale you look at, you could say that, for the working class in the U.S. anyway, the depression started in the early 1970s. After inflation, after taxes, their take-home pay hasn't risen in real terms for 40 years. But the definition of a depression that I use is "a period of time during which most people's standard of living drops significantly."

Net savings shows that you're living within your means and putting aside capital for the future. In the U.S., people have been living above their means for many years—that is what debt is all about. Debt means that you are borrowing against future production, which is exactly what the U.S. has been doing.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 30 Sep 2011 21:22

I don't think we can compare Tsun Zu and Chanakya. Are not Indians mostly ashamed of Chanakya "neeti"? Most of the murmurs that we see filtering out in education or media, is an uneasy glossing over of Chanakya, a vague but palpable discomfort ans subtle condemnation of "ruthlessness" - as somehow not being the proper Indian "way". Chandragupta Maurya "unified" northern India - [hopefully with the benevolent inputs of Alexander, who were merely on a visit - and who should be more gratefully remembered for the immense cultural shaping of India] and then promptly renouncing "imperial" ambitions as Jaina monk. Atta-boi - thats the way all Indian imperial ambitions shoudl terminate - in a clean oh-so-defined-by-us dharmik way. Just pass over the son Bindusara [ who also went on to expand] with a mention onlee - and not his activities - and go into Asoka - the "Great", the one who gave it all up supposedly!

Chanakya is a wee mosquito under the solar blaze of that "giving up"! In contrast Tsun Zu is no matter of shame for China. Mao's own writings used him a lot- glorified him - and put him up as most copy-able icon firmly within "Hannism". Mao frequently used "Bandit" narratives with pride.

You see - there is no "neeti-" love fest within China [except of course submission to elders bit].

Imperialist expansionism is subtly painted as immoral in India - not how Indians should think.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 30 Sep 2011 21:46

Yes we have lots of soft-power so to speak : and what exactly are those soft powers? both hollywood and bollywood bares and thrusts, soft-power we gloat about - while holly also mixes in its "fists" and how it used its fists in soft-soft caresses on others, we apply our chi-chi neeti and only have our women shake and bare. That is oh-so lauded by external pundits - about the oh-so-soft power of India, and we delete our palm lines in rubbing our palms in grateful acknowledgment.

This whole hullabaloo about "soft-power; is never analyzed concretely - what exactly are the cultural elements that are being touted as soft-power? If you say even philsophical/religious ideas - which ideas, which parts, which representations? Culture - which parts of that culture, what concrete elements? That should be illsutrative.

If you claim that it increases P2P connections - then we need to see concretely how the "other" society deals with P2P effects into rashtryia policy making. Dreamworlds of assuming that P2P softness translates into "softness" from totalitarian regimes like Pakis or current Chinese?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 01 Oct 2011 03:23

'and what exactly are those soft powers?'

Shashi Tharoor spoke of the power of example, of ideology, philosophy, of the very idea of India which serves as an inspiration. That of a democratic, secular, pluralistic country where you don't have to agree on everything, except on the ground rules by which you can disagree. No one can say the Chinese lead by the power of example or of philosophy and ideology.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 01 Oct 2011 06:23

Varoon Shekhar wrote:'and what exactly are those soft powers?'

Shashi Tharoor spoke of the power of example, of ideology, philosophy, of the very idea of India which serves as an inspiration. That of a democratic, secular, pluralistic country where you don't have to agree on everything, except on the ground rules by which you can disagree. No one can say the Chinese lead by the power of example or of philosophy and ideology.


Sashi Tharoor - of course! He was out in the USA for quite a while. Is all that "democratic/secular..." thing unique to India? Does not USA qulaify on that very same "claims" basis - or for that matter - many and most nations of the "west" have tremendous soft power then. Some defend their plurality to the extent that they would even protect the right of individuals to criticize certain theologies. Theologies before which the softly powerful Indian rashtra shakes like a leaf and melts immeditaley in appeasement.

The soft power of the Sashian variety I suppose - the vacuum ideology of the dynasty, the philosophy of Glimpses of world history and becoming bootlicking courtiers of the dynasty, and where of course you dont have to agree on the rights of everyone to criticize any ideology, especially special-status ideologies like Islamism or Maoism - and where the very ground rules effectively rule out such criticism.

The Chinese do not lead by 'example" - of course they don't, they simply set examples - as in 1962. Yes they have no philosophy, they dont lead by ideologies - it is another matter of course that first year Chinese undergrads spent almost 60-80% of the time absorbing and being tested on Mao-ze-dong and Deng's "thoughts".

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Philip » 01 Oct 2011 13:51

Amazing story of China's richest village,where a village of poulation of APapprox. 2000 people now has a skyscraper taller than the Eiffel Tower or Chrysler blg.,a solid gold buffalo sculpture worth over 30m pounds and which also owns its own ships,etc.! This is a must read story and how such atitudes could also usher in another kind of revolution in Indian villages not by the Naxals!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... raper.html

China's richest village opens its own skyscraper
China's "model" village has given itself an ostentatious gift for its 50th birthday: a skyscraper taller than the Eiffel Tower or New York's Chrysler building.

It was in the dark days of 1969, during the Cultural Revolution, that Huaxi secretly set up its first factory, manufacturing screws. Such enterprises were banned and Old Wu could have been severely punished.

"Luckily, we were not cracked down on and I managed to uphold production," he said.

"That was his greatest achievement, in my opinion, because we managed to build up some capital to invest when the time was right. Old Wu used to disband the factory when the inspectors came round and send everyone back to the fields," said Miss Zhu.

"At the time, the slogan was to cut the tail off capitalism, but we managed to keep our tail," added Xu Manqing, 70, the head of the local Party school.

By the time Deng Xiaoping proclaimed that "getting rich is glorious" in 1992, kick-starting China's economic miracle, Old Wu was ready. He summoned the village bosses to a 2am meeting and asked for 20 million yuan (£2 million) to invest in raw materials: steel, copper and aluminium. In the weeks that followed, the prices of the metals doubled or quadrupled, but Huaxi had moved first.

Today, the village is a corporation, the Jiangsu Huaxi Group, with interests in metals, textiles, property and logistics. Rarely has Old Wu missed an opportunity, even scooping out the centre of the village and turning it into a lake in order to sell earth to the builders of the Nanjing to Shanghai motorway.

"During the financial crisis, we bought five second-hand ships, at a third of their value," said Miss Zhu. "Now we have commissioned another eight so we can be a force in shipping." The golden water buffalo, which cost £30 million, has already soared in value, she added.

Over 25,000 workers have migrated to greater Huaxi and while they do not share in the village's wealth, they get far better housing and benefits than they would elsewhere.

More of a benevolent kingdom, ruled over by Old Wu and his four sons, than a Communist paradise, the next step for Huaxi is tourism. The new skyscraper will be a luxury hotel. "This skyscraper will give us the edge," said old Wu. "No other village has one, and 3,000 people can work there. The next five years is critical, we are going to go from village to city."

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby SSridhar » 02 Oct 2011 15:36

RajeshA wrote:Published on Sep 27, 2011
By Yajun Zhang
China's Ansteel to Build India Steel Plant: Wall Street Journal

Now that iron ore export to China is not taking place, they want to establish a factory here and export finished goods instead.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby brihaspati » 02 Oct 2011 21:24

SSridhar wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Published on Sep 27, 2011
By Yajun Zhang
China's Ansteel to Build India Steel Plant: Wall Street Journal

Now that iron ore export to China is not taking place, they want to establish a factory here and export finished goods instead.


Anyone into irons and steel, in India - if not seen as pro-congrez - must be into huge corruption and be in line for special treatment by congrez bureau of investigation onlee! So how much are the Chinese giving to whom?

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby chackojoseph » 03 Oct 2011 10:25

Chinese-Russian security and energy relations are crumbling : SIPRI

Too optimistic I must say. China can never be a world power if Russia stops supporting it.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Pratyush » 03 Oct 2011 11:18

It will be interesting to see the reactions of the Indian NGO industry to the PRC owned steel mill if it ever comes up in India. Will they opposes the steel mill and the attached iron ore mine or will they support it saying that it is in the interest of the masses, and the oppressed classes. :P

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby vishvak » 03 Oct 2011 11:38

Pratyush wrote:It will be interesting to see the reactions of the Indian NGO industry to the PRC owned steel mill if it ever comes up in India. Will they opposes the steel mill and the attached iron ore mine or will they support it saying that it is in the interest of the masses, and the oppressed classes. :P

More on this: http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?262533 , with pictures, stats, etc.
Example: Image
From http://www.indianexpress.com/news/guess ... t/524475/0
His colleague Pandhe, who is a politburo member and head of labour outfit CITU, contested the government finding that some 25,000 Chinese workers in India are semi-skilled or unskilled. He told The Indian Express that the “Chinese who have come here are actually technicians and not workers” as “no employer in India would prefer a Chinese unskilled worker when cheap labour is easily available here.”

So CITU is already supporting Chinese workers.
Last edited by vishvak on 03 Oct 2011 13:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Philip » 03 Oct 2011 13:21

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... world.html

Why China won't conquer the world

Its young are incapable, its old are exhausted, and box-ticking bureaucrats make life hell. China, a superpower? First it needs to grow up, says acclaimed author Xué Xinran

Xcpts:
world’s superpower? Is China really ready to rule the world? For nearly a decade now, on book tours that have taken me all over the globe, this is the one subject I am always guaranteed to be grilled on.

I can understand why people ask me. My name is Xinran and I was born in Beijing in 1958. I am a British-Chinese broadcaster and author, and have lived in London since 1997, where I initially worked as a cleaner. I have a foot in both cultures, and yet, when my readers ask me whether Western fears that power is shifting inexorably to the East are justified, I struggle to answer them.

China is a sleeping lion, Napoleon once warned. “Let her sleep, for when she wakes she will shake the world.” Nearly two centuries later, this lion is not only awake, but roaring. Foreign companies in Asia, factories in Africa, and even villages in Italy and streets in France have been snapped up by perspicacious Chinese businessmen. Growth may have slowed in the midst of the world debt crisis, but China remains the world’s low-cost manufacturer and the US’s biggest creditor, with one Washington think tank recently making the prediction that the Yuan could overtake the dollar as the principal reserve currency within a decade.

On my home turf in London, a string of schools now offer Mandarin lessons to children as young as three, including Easy Mandarin UK in Belgravia and the Link Chinese Academy, which runs “fun” classes in “the language of the future” in Soho, Liverpool Street and Hammersmith. Back in 2008, The Daily Telegraph reported a rush on Mandarin-speaking nannies by “high-achieving parents” looking to “invest in their children’s future”. Wherever you look, China’s dominance seems inevitable. But is it?

At least twice a year I go back to China to update my understanding of my magical, constantly changing home country. As a writer, I try to dig out what’s really going on behind the cities’ monolithic shopping centres, the billboards flashing that day’s FTSE index, as well as visiting the countryside, where life couldn’t be more different.

My most recent trip to China was in September. It began with 10 mad, busy days in Beijing where my husband, as consultant to China Publishing Group, was attending the International Book Fair. I had gone to Nanjing to research my new book on the effects of China’s one-child policy, through the eyes of the first generation.

We then went to Shanghai where we were both giving lectures at Fudan University. Much of our time had been spent on the road, and we were by now desperate for a break from the swarming cars and the crowded streets, all overlooked by the unending skyscrapers lived in by over 16 million people.

A friend suggested a trip to Suzhou, “to have a walk and drink tea at some of the ancient tea farms, such as Guhan Village. No cars, no tourists”.

Before I left for Britain in 1997, this pleasant journey used to take me an hour by car. This time it took five hours and after a rushed lunch our driver warned us we would have to leave – “otherwise you won’t get back to Shanghai for dinner, even by Western standards”. (The Chinese eat dinner a lot earlier.)

.....China has become a machine for generating wealth and opportunity, but is this nation of exhausted workers really one that can one day lead the world?

And what of the generation the one-child policy has spawned? Children from the biggest 40 cities are living in the three-screen world (television, computer and mobile), wearing global designer brands, travelling first class, and buying houses and cars for their one or two years’ study overseas. For these young “super-rich”, price has become no object, some even flying to and from Hong Kong for a day’s shopping.

It’s hard to conceive of them becoming China’s next generation of entrepreneurs, when, unlike their parents and grandparents, many have never touched a cooker and barely know how to make their own beds. They may have had superior schooling but many critics believe China’s education system – with its obsession with test-taking and rote memorisation – stifles rather than encourages creativity. Indeed, today’s entry exam for China’s universities, the “gaokao”, has its origins in a recruitment test devised by the imperial government in the sixth century, and, according to Jiang Xueqin, a Yale-educated school administrator in Beijing, rewards “very strong memory; very strong logical and analytical ability; little imagination; little desire to question authority”. China could be seen as a brilliant imitator but a poor innovator – its talents for replicating anything the Western world has to offer evidenced by the recent uncovering of 22 fake Apple stores across Kunming, the capital of Yunnan Province in south-west China. So convincing were the stores that even staff members believed they were working for Apple. Genius, in a way. But misdirected genius.

If China is to dominate the creative industries as it has manufacturing, it needs to borrow a line from Apple’s marketing department: “Think different”. Liu Jun, a businessman recently crowned one of the “50 most creative individuals in China”, says it’s an uphill struggle.

“The reason the Chinese don’t have global companies is that we don’t have a global vision,” he said recently. “Chinese designers only think about what pleasures them, not the customer. It’s a huge problem.” Chinese corporate structures remain very rigid, and, according to Daniel Altman, a consultant at Dalberg Global Development Advisors, original ideas “have to percolate through so many layers of hierarchy that most won’t survive to the top. China has a long way to go before it will be anything like the US in its ability to foster entrepreneurship.”

Of course, such dreams of corporate domination are a far cry from the lives of China’s peasants and farmers, who make up 70 per cent of the population. And for many lower down the chain, there is a growing resentment at our servicing of the US debt. As our driver put it: “Why, when Chinese people are watering our land with sweat, working hard day and night, are Americans comfortable, wearing sunglasses, able to enjoy the sun and sea? Why do we have to help them with their financial troubles?”

I didn’t tell him that in July this year, the total number of US bonds held by China had reached $1.1735trillion, equivalent to each person in China being owed 5,700 RMB (£570). I think, as Chinese people, we all know how this burden of debt accumulated, through years of bent backs and rough work, but not many people dare speak out. This is partly because most Chinese people don’t understand the scale of the financial crisis in the US and partly because we are not used to questioning our country’s leaders.

Taiwan-born Larry Hsien Ping Lang, a professor of finance at the University of Hong Kong, is known for his critiques of the Chinese economy. Earlier this month he warned that concerns about the state of the US economy have been overblown, and that it is really China’s precarious financial position the government needs to address.

“Our economy is not healthy,” he wrote, “and China’s manufacturing industry will be the end of its development. The number of business closures will reach 30 per cent or 40 per cent because the manufacturing zone faces two difficulties. First, the investment environment has deteriorated across the board and, second, there is serious excess capacity.

“These difficulties have led to a manufacturing crisis and entrepreneurs have had to retreat.” China’s rocketing house prices, fuelled by money advanced from the manufacturing sector, are only adding to China’s “bubble economy”, Lang believes.

Is the bubble about to burst? Lang fears it is. In his eyes, the speed of growth of China’s economy must slow down to give time for its education system and society to catch up; to improve the balance between rich and poor, and to allow time to consider what China needs to create a strong future.

After years spent researching the issues caused by a society made up of single children, I can’t help agreeing with Lang. Indeed, sometimes my home country feels like a nation in chaos.

Take the number of deaths on the road. In the past five years (2006-2010), there have been 76,000 road traffic deaths in China every year, accounting for more than 80 per cent of the total killed in all industrial accidents. Since 2001, divorce rates have also shot up. China’s highest divorce rate is in Beijing (39 per cent), closely followed by Shanghai (38 per cent).

Today, more than half the number of divorces are between people in their twenties and thirties, most of them from the first generation of the single-child policy. Many of this generation don’t even want children. Some don’t like the idea of being ousted from their position within the family; others say they simply don’t have the time to care for a child. At least they know their limitations. In the last five years, there have been numerous cases of two and three year-olds who have suffocated to death in family cars. Why? Because their distracted parents entrusted them to the care of drivers who left them locked in airless cars while running errands. It’s hard to take in, but it’s happening.

....
There is no question that China has progressed in the past 30 years. I don’t think any nation in history has improved 1.3 billion peoples’ lives in such a short space of time. Most of our grandparents were saving a few soya beans everyday to help their family survive the famine, my parents would queue for hours just to get a bottle of cooking oil.

But are we really the next superpower? Can we really interact with the most developed countries when our free market economy is only 30 years old?

Even if we do become a superpower, will it be one that is firmly under central government control? Will we lose our identity – our family values and our culture – until we can no longer tell the difference between the Chinese dragon (how the Chinese think of themselves) and the Chinese lion (how the West thinks of us)? China, this sleeping lion is now awake, and you must find a way to feed it, and to keep it alive.

Back in Shanghai, our epic 10-hour journey between Shanghai and Suzhou finally over, my husband, Toby, cried out: I won’t get in the car in China again.

But we knew we would. It is a country that is far too exciting and colourful to give up on and most exciting of all, its story is still being written.

Sri
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Postby Sri » 03 Oct 2011 19:41

Many knowledgeable and Gentle Rakshaks have talked about the recent Chinese activity in the fields of military incursions, diplomatic offensive and other international incidents. The general line of thinking in BR seems to be:
1) Chinese are working on grand plan to upset India's rise as an economical / military power
2) Chinese have in recent days up the ente.
3) Chinese are preparing for an all out war with India

Part 1: Do the Chinese really have a plan to upset India's rise? The answer is absolutely. At strategic levels there are all kind of plans. But most are not actively pursued, because a) Priority on other more urgent issues b) Lack of resources to put the plan into practice. Now if the Chinese who now have the resources and time to do something about India and that they do it, why should there be a heart burn in India? It is expected only.

We have never been enemies but have always been adversaries in every way. It is just amazing that for 2 great and the only surviving classical civilization how little we have in common or share. I mean we discovered 0, Chinese learnt it 1000 years later. They discovered gunpowder and we discovered it 2300 years later when someone put it up our a... Many chinese writers came to India and reported meticulously back to chinese about our cultural achievements but who traveled from India to China and reported the great leaps they have made? This kind of animosity happens with a neighbor when the unwritten code is... I don't like you, you don't like me, lets rock... eh separately!!! And in all this I feel India is guilty of ideological superiority complex.

Now the Han feels, with his mighty economy and military, this smirkness needs to be wiped off the face of indic. Now he has the time and money, and he is willing to employ both to prove to the world, Indics and most importantly to himself, that he is superior to Indics and correct the course of history. Remember Chinese believe that they lost Tibet to India not to an Ideology. For them a Budhism is an indic conspiracy.

What could be the reason for recent escalations? Well many rakshaks here have pointed out that with the rise of India Chinese see the window of the grand 'Badla' is shrinking. With Pak almost licking the boots, the west in decline and most importantly dependent on China as their banker, han certainly finds himself at the most interesting crossroads of history. Remember never in past 8K years of our history, the gulf in strategic capabilities of the indic and han has been so wide.

Then our weak leadership, our chaotic democracy and the confused polity gives an impression of a desperate nation unable to find it's feat.

Having said the above. I also believe that the Chinese will never attack us at least in the conventional way. There is too much at stake for them. China suffers from an image crisis. An attack on India by China is almost a wet dream for a western strategist. Nothing will please the west more than a desperate India running into their arms for protection. The same is the ultimate nightmarish scenario for China.

Guys the han and the indic have had a difficult relationship for thousands of years. It is almost ingrained in the Chinese mind that India has not been a good neighbor. The difficult encounters on the spice route with Indian traders, the ideological onslaught by Maurayans and other Budhist dynasties, the Opium supplies from India, HH the DL's stay here and initial bankrolling of the Tibetan Government in exile by Indians, to Sikkim, the Han feels wronged for whatever reasons. In my opinion it is important for us to pursuit a policy where we don't escalate anymore. Sure there will be little incidents here and there, but we need to just ignore them and keep engaging the Chinese positively. 1000 years from now both the Indic and han will be around, you can safely bet on that. There will be no western civilization with clear ideological or cultural linkages with the current west, there will be no Pakistan and the will be no oil in Gulf.

But yes, keep preparing. There is no excuse for lowering of guard. Prepare for war. Expect something may happen. We can't beat PLA in shear numbers. We can't beat them on logistics or manufacturing or xeroxing. But we have other formidable advantages which we must keep honing. We have better officer class, and in some areas far superior technology. Indian Army has been embroiled in conflicts almost forever hence we have very experienced soldiers and leaders at every level.

Just confronting the Chinese all the time, every time may not be the answer until we have the capability to do something about it in return. Wave, smile and look cute guys... it's not our time yet.


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