Telangana Monitor

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Satya_anveshi
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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Satya_anveshi » 19 Oct 2011 03:08

ramana wrote:OK. Folks you have seen the appeals to not use four letter words or cuss words. Please adhere to that.

OT: If my bro calls me SOB its OK being children of same Telugu Talli. He is just upset. But its different when someone else does that.

So Satya_Anveshi, you can call me that only in this thread when you are upset. Elsewhere may not be good idea. BTW this applies only to S_A to me. It doesn't apply to anyone else or S-A to others.


Ramana garu,
We don't have to be using these languages at all. However, it is funny how some worthies are complaining when the gloves are taken out and that shows their moral character. And BTW: “Paki” is a much offensive four letter word than S or F words. But it appears that some A folks here consider such references as their family’s pride, neighbour’s envy.

Just for the record, the only reason I even bothered to post in this thread was after seeing too much vitriol against fellow countrymen (could not bother myself up until about page 22).

Here is my first post on this thread on page 22.

Here is SwamyG's post on page 25 urging forum members to desist from referring fellow Indians as Pakis

Here is Gerard ji warning on page 28 to posters again to desist from such references..this post was to none other than KLN Murthy

Here is Gerard ji 2nd warning on page 28 to posters again to desist from such references

Here is Stan ji's post on page 35 asking for the same

Here is my post urging to ensure ill feelings do not take hold regardless of division materializing

It is only after all these I responded with this post on page 112. You will not see a single reference from me prior to that post.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby RamaY » 19 Oct 2011 03:21

For the record I called the t-Vadis pakis who called for "kicking out Andhrawalas and taking out their hard earned possessions (yes they sold their farms, businesses and moved to Hyderabad like any Telugu)".

I still stand by my opinion and such people are Pakis indeed. They do not deserve any empathy/understanding IMO.

At the same time I empathize with the Telangana Vadis who wanted a fair allocation of resources and opportunities even if that means a separate state in a logical manner. All regions of Bharat suffered from Islam and chrisitan colonization and we all need to help each other so we come out strong together.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 19 Oct 2011 04:00

devesh wrote:did RSS ever try to "implement" these regulations?

If it had somehow come to power, god help India if it did, you think it would nt have tried to implement a form of non-universal suffrage? There were nuff fundoos in the INC of the 30s and 40s too. After their fundoo ideas did nt get any traction beyond a point in INC and just lip-speak was done, quite a few moved out, some to Swatantra and Jan Sangh on the right-side, and Forward Bloc on the left side. Some to other outfits and organizations such as Jinnah, Periyar, etc. did. Whether Vajpayee or Advani concur with these views is immaterial, they do go around singing paens for Golwalkar and other RSS honchos even today. So do most BJPwallahs. If Gandhi and Nehru are humans with both positives and negatives and a plea for a decent look at their baggage gets a repartee of "had he not existed and propped up Nehru, many others would have filled in and formed an India that was vastly different." Yes, the people who would have filled Gandhi and Nehru's shoes would have been people such as Golwalkar, Savarkar, Raghuvira, Gobind Das, etc. That is the counter-repartee you will get. Unfortunate it has to come to that...
I am a certified BJP "fundoo" and I assure you, it doesn't cause me any discomfort. I am perfectly happy with my choice in ideological belonging.

Whatever makes your day, my man. But dont feel the kujlee when someone points out that the very same ideological baggage comes with a beautiful past that cant be wished away by hifalutin anglais. Accept the mistakes, move on.

and more importantly, why did this even come up in this thread? it is completely OT for this thread.

May be because of utter-garbage that gets posted such as this:
Mainly to have a Telugu state and to get out of Dravidian ideology of Tamil brothers and to join pan-Indian vision of Indian Republic.

First, there is white-washing as if all that Dravidian ideology was a Tamil dominant one. Then, there is cover-up after cover-ups all with hifalutin loud-mouthed histrionics: "Pan-Indian vision" that other states did nt and only the newly-formed AP had and as if that "tryst with destiny" was conceived by a Telugu-speaker, "get out of Dravidian ideology" which was conveniently used and prostituted all this while to fetch social mobility for the Telugu-speaking OBCs of the Madras Presidency. Language pride as an issue became a theme of popular discourse primarily in AP. So what, accept it and move on. Why cover it up with so much bs? You guys are not lacking any pride in Telugu today and your ancestors too had their pride. What is so unfashionable in accepting such facts? Or, should you put that charade of "I/Telugus am a/are nationalist(s), I/we believe in Hindi's power, I/we believe in a link language, I/we believe in doing what is needed for India" show behind the scenes. Being nationalistic has nothing to do with being proud of one's language or otherwise. These are two easily-mixed issues and they make for popular keyboard jehadism. It is the popular attribution to show-acts of jingoism that make people clutch at straws and un-accept history and worse, revision it to convenience-based. Look at all the garbage that would have become brf folklore if not uncorrected: Telugu CMs were ruling the roost in Madras Presidency, Madras should have rightfully come to AP because "we" owned it more, so should have Ganjam, Bellary, Yanam, and why even SJC/SFO/whole of Bay area. And all this revisionism in spite of showing census data, pointing to facts, archival literature, books and more. If I did nt stand on facts, evidences and explicit page citations on literature on this matter, imagine my plight on this dhaaga -- I would have become a hon. paki, not like I will be surprised if I am thought of as one in some people's minds already :). May be I should do a dance of "I am an oiseaule and I am proud, and I could nt care if you get too paindoo about it." :)

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ShyamSP » 19 Oct 2011 04:36

Since you seem to be fond of "facts", "evidences", and "explicit page citations" (as if you only can do), I googled and presented some random link as is below. Enjoy!

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
Mainly to have a Telugu state and to get out of Dravidian ideology of Tamil brothers and to join pan-Indian vision of Indian Republic.

First, there is white-washing as if all that Dravidian ideology was a Tamil dominant one. Then, there is cover-up after cover-ups all with hifalutin loud-mouthed histrionics: "Pan-Indian vision" that other states did nt and only the newly-formed AP had and as if that "tryst with destiny" was conceived by a Telugu-speaker, "get out of Dravidian ideology" which was conveniently used and prostituted all this while to fetch social mobility for the Telugu-speaking OBCs of the Madras Presidency. Language pride as an issue became a theme of popular discourse primarily in AP. So what, accept it and move on. Why cover it up with so much bs? You guys are not lacking any pride in Telugu today and your ancestors too had their pride. What is so unfashionable in accepting such facts? Or, should you put that charade of "I/Telugus am a/are nationalist(s), I/we believe in Hindi's power, I/we believe in a link language, I/we believe in doing what is needed for India" show behind the scenes. Being nationalistic has nothing to do with being proud of one's language or otherwise. These are two easily-mixed issues and they make for popular keyboard jehadism. It is the popular attribution to show-acts of jingoism that make people clutch at straws and un-accept history and worse, revision it to convenience-based. Look at all the garbage that would have become brf folklore if not uncorrected: Telugu CMs were ruling the roost in Madras Presidency, Madras should have rightfully come to AP because "we" owned it more, so should have Ganjam, Bellary, Yanam, and why even SJC/SFO/whole of Bay area. And all this revisionism in spite of showing census data, pointing to facts, archival literature, books and more. If I did nt stand on facts, evidences and explicit page citations on literature on this matter, imagine my plight on this dhaaga -- I would have become a hon. paki, not like I will be surprised if I am thought of as one in some people's minds already :). May be I should do a dance of "I am an oiseaule and I am proud, and I could nt care if you get too paindoo about it." :)



http://www.safhr.org/index.php?option=c ... Itemid=723
...
1945: -At its conference, DK adopted a constitution and proclaims the achievement of a sovereign independent Dravidian Republic as its objective....

1946: -Naicker calls upon the Dravidian people of South India to “guard against a transfer of power from the British to the Aryans.” Calls for formation of a separate South Indian state, Dravidastan. The demand is not supported by the non-Tamil speaking people in the region ...

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 19 Oct 2011 04:51

ShyamSP wrote:1945: ...
1946: ...

Why not go a bit backward to the 1890s when the precursors to the Justice Party came about? Why just stop with 1945, because it is too convenient for you to ignore the other dates and other events and like Mohd bin Qasim the demand for an Andhra desam began in those pre-1947 days onlee, hain ji?! Go check on Madras Mahajana Sabha and before that to the Madras Native Association. There were a 100 million unions, organizations, parties, associations and sabhas that gave to the complex monolith of Justice Party and later the Dravida Kazhagam. Not all wanted a Dravidastan and not all came to the conclusion that the solution to their grievances will come outside the newly created nation-state of India. Unfortunately, they are all easy to ignore.

For all I know, the demand for an Andhra state came much earlier and can be traced to Pattabhi Sitaramaiah in 1909 or something like that. In fact, even he improvised another demand for an Andhra desa that had been vogue in those days. Why, the oft-quoted Pandit Nalamotu Chakravarthy himself has some such 1909 date in his mega-bible on all things Andhra desamulu :). There was no demand for Dravidastan or Tamil desam or anything in that period. So how come "getting out of the Dravidastan demand" become a sequitur to this demand in 1909?

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ShyamSP » 19 Oct 2011 05:07

Stan_Savljevic wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:1945: ...
1946: ...

Why not go a bit backward to the 1890s


You said "revisionism", "garbage",.. so I provided some "explicit page reference" to say it is neither "revisionism" or "garbage" but counter to the Garbage that was spread by your periyar. (small p intentional)

I leave up to you to collect "facts", "evidences" and "explicit page refernces" for other things.


In the same link few lines down :rotfl:
=======================
-DK issues statement that given the creation of Andhra Pradesh, and given that the people of Kerala and Mysore were indifferent to Dravidastan, those in Tamilnad would have to be content with Tamilnad as Dravida Nadu..... (and brainwashing and producing future Dravida"stan"is)

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Oct 2011 05:35

ashashi garu, I do not hate or oppose people of Telangana. Why should I when two of my sisters married to Telangana and living there. I certainly oppose this logic that Telangana is under developed and a separate state is needed to develop it. SKC report already produced proof that it is not a correct allegation. Immediately the reason for division was changed from lack of development to self rule. No one can accept that when for 5 years Telangana region has given PM's to this nation.
Further Indira was MP from Telangana was PM of India.

B.J.P. leaders who are part of the so called JAC are as responsible to the actions of JAC as KCR and his criminal gangs. Kishan Reddy knows about the actions of KCR and his gangs and yet sits with him. BJP is party to the destruction of statues on Tank bund. It had to say sorry later on and yet continued its association with TRS till date.

In many ways this agitation has broken all kinds of limits which were till now taken for granted in any political activity in India. No one used to attack houses of people who oppose them or who do not do what is demanded of them. Here we see attacks on ministers including female political leaders, Attacks on journalists (Parakala Prabhakarand others) houses. Beating up MLA like Jayaprakash Narayan in the assembly premises, Attacks on political meetings and activities ( Jagan and TDP bus yatha just few days back attack on Danam Nagendra with eggs and many others) and daily verbal abuses on Tv by every one of political leaders for a long time. These actions or not taken out of anger. There are always taken with planning etc. As a political tool. There is a daily collection of money going on in Hyderabad in the name of Telangana and if you do not pay money you will be attacked in the name of Telangana. No one will or can complain and live peacefully.

Congress MP and MLA are openly telling that they are afraid to go home because of fear of attacks. Are they afraid that they will be attacked by common people ? No. They are afraid of the criminal gangs maintained by KCR now. No action can be taken against them just like no action can be taken on Siva Sena in Maharastra.

The main aim of the agitation now is the loot then can get from Hyderabad and grab power in rest of Telangana and nothing to with people and their aspirations. The decision to divide AP or not will be taken not based on any principles etc. It will be taken if and when it is advantageous to Sonia criminal gang. That is all.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby SwamyG » 19 Oct 2011 06:34

ShyamSP wrote:Mainly to have a Telugu state and to get out of Dravidian ideology of Tamil brothers and to join pan-Indian vision of Indian Republic. :rotfl: {yeah, right. Let us invite folks from Link language dhaaga, and replace telugu and tamil with something else, and see where the pan-Indian vision goes out the window}

It was not a Tamil Dochukunnaru movement like T-vadis are doing. One tidbit to know 2/3rds of CMs in Madras presidency were Telugus since early 1900s.

So what do you mean by that? No, not the english translation of the telugu word. I get that (at least I think so). Without jumping to conclusion, I will request you to explain first.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ShyamSP » 19 Oct 2011 07:09

Swamygal,

SwamyG wrote:
ShyamSP wrote:Mainly to have a Telugu state and to get out of Dravidian ideology of Tamil brothers and to join pan-Indian vision of Indian Republic. :rotfl: {yeah, right. Let us invite folks from Link language dhaaga, and replace telugu and tamil with something else, and see where the pan-Indian vision goes out the window}

It was not a Tamil Dochukunnaru movement like T-vadis are doing. One tidbit to know 2/3rds of CMs in Madras presidency were Telugus since early 1900s.

So what do you mean by that? No, not the english translation of the telugu word. I get that (at least I think so). Without jumping to conclusion, I will request you to explain first.


It was in response to another poster's question that if same Madras split reasons apply to Telangana.
> What why did andhrites fight against madras presidency and get separated? Do some of those reasons apply to telangana now.
T movement is based on "Andhra people robbed Telanagana". To negate the reason I said Madras split was not based on "Tamil people robbed Andhra". Hope that clarifies.

As for pan-Indian vision, I merely stated such vision whether people/states are true to that spirit or not is different question.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Muppalla » 19 Oct 2011 07:18

ashashi wrote:As a person of Andra origin who lived in Hyderabad my entire life until I emigrated to US, I don't understand this negative attitude towards telangana peoples. Any objective person cannot deny the fact that Telangana regions has been neglected for decades. Unfortunately for telangana, the entire region is sitting on a volcanic rock, so it can never compete with Andra or even seema in terms for agriculture sector driven prosperity. We have to find other ways of bringing progress and wealth to the Telangana.


What could be that? A seperate state born using hatered as a tool to achieve it?

As I said in simple terms, what T really wanted was an article 371 for their region so that other will not be able to settle there and they can develop at their own pace with no competetion from others.

Imagine such a thingy is really done in 1950 or in 1969 what could be repercussion in India and how many such demands should the Government has to satisfy. There will be several regions that will ask such things.

What kind of a country that India would be with several restrictions everywhere to buy land or do business?

Do not even tell me that anything less than Article 371 will work. Even if T is a state to start with how in the world you can stop the bordering state of Andhras who also have deeper blood relations with the T state people will not buy and sell land and do other business? Andhras are menacing anyway and what kind of laws of India will stop them from what they are doing now? Assume for argument sake a beautiful beauracry has convinced to stop a lot of water in T state and a lot richer lands are created. Even then Andhras would have bought the land at the same pace. It is the difference in the enterprenural approach between the regions.

If this kind of logic is presented then comes the gentle answer "it is only for small and better administration".

Even if someone admits that Article 371 should be better then how will you rollback to 1948? Otheriwse an Article 371 or a new mulki based system is just a creation of anarchy to determine who is T and who is settler? Imagine a women's property bill in T region on the lines of what Mufti Mohammed syed passed in JK.

This whole state formation of T based on settlers to be seperated from T is untenable in 2011 except that if some forces want to destroy whatever was gained as development and also create anarchy in the state.

Even though a lot of people say it is all impractical to have Art 371 or mulki stuff and it is just two states living as brothers and T is going to be a state like any other state, then so called settlers on the ground are not convinced and the reason is the movement of T state is always a call to throw out Andhras. Saner voices come only as abberations.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Satya_anveshi » 19 Oct 2011 07:20

Telangana, a case of missed opportunities - Vinod Sharma, Hindustan Times - October 18, 2011

Andhra was created in 1953 from the Telugu-speaking northern districts of the Madras Presidency. The Telangana part of Hyderabad state was merged with it three years later to organize what’s now AP. The move disregarded the states’ organization commission’s 1955 report that showed the people of Andhra as “overwhelmingly” supportive of the larger unit while recognising Telangana’s right to decide its future. It said in the same go that public opinion “has still to crystallize” in Telangana.

Nehru responded instead with constitutional safeguards for Telangana vis-à-vis education, employment and budgetary allocations. Reached as well was a gentleman’s agreement enforced without much consistency that the deputy CM would be from Telangana each time the CM’s slot went to Andhra.

The Congress’s comeuppance is from promises made and broken like pie-crusts. When the Telugu Desam was in power, YS Rajasekhara Reddy encouraged Telangana protagonists, including those in the Congress to create problems for Chandrababu Naidu. That period witnessed K Chandrasekhara Rao desert the TDP to form the TRS now in the vanguard of a full-blown statehood agitation

Barring perhaps Kashmir or the North East, mainstream India hasn’t seen a comparable agitation in terms of its reach, depth and magnitude. It’s making the political entity that’s AP appear increasingly unviable after six decades of deceit, drama and duplicity
.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 19 Oct 2011 07:33

ShyamSP, instead of obfuscating and dancing around and quoting random facts without any context or sequence, can you please explain why the demand for an Andhra desam came about in ~1909 long before a demand for Dravida"stan" was made? Please educate me on your first insightful post on bringing Tamil into the picture :). I am sure you do have your logic, we need to hear that.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Satya_anveshi » 19 Oct 2011 08:05

Creation of a separate Telangana with Hyd as its unconditional and unfettered capital is a viable solution. This does not mean a state created out of hate by T-folks rather a state to protect from intentional and institutional hate by A folks. This a big difference.

Now, if there is indeed some alternate reality to the the deliberate mauling of all agreements, mass scale deprivation of job & educational opportunities, and diversion of resources for anything but the betterment of T-region, then I suggest the following alternate solution which can be incorporated within the UNIFIED AP:

If the T folks claim is that they were not given due share in the power - this is a self-evident and acknowledged fact even in SKC report, then they NEED to be given that power - T representative to be CM with unfettered/unconditional for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunities to correct course;

If T-Folks claim that their water/power resource management suffered under constant change of "priorities" or technical viabilities and what have you - this claim is recognized, endorsed by and large in SKC, and self-evident fact..then water/irrigation /power ministry MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides for the projects to begin and complete

If T-Folks claim is that revenue from T areas are diverted to the progress of A and to the disadvantage of T, then revenue ministry must be divided into 2 for each of the regions ( T and A) each at cabinet level to manage/tax as needed even if at separate level

If T-Folks claim is that educational opportunities are deprived - then Education ministry of the state MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunity to course correct

If T-Folks claim is that employment opportunities are deprived - then Employment ministry of the state MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunity to course correct

Along with this, for a period that is sufficiently provides redressal of grievances, all the ministries within AP MUST be shared between the representatives of T/A (NO T/A/R regions but just A and T) along the share of population in both regions.

Hyd should be de-cluttered of some of the institutions and spread out to different parts of AP some of which MUST be located in Telangana…if OPEN university goes to Nalgonda…that is fine, JNTU should be moved or created another in another part of Telangana, new institutions should be created evenly in all of AP..Immediate initiation of maintenance of existing dams and initiation of Srisailam left canal will address those concerns as well. this will give people something to feel the change hear and now.

In all the above, the time period in question should be arrived at consensus within GOI. My own guesstimate would be not less than 2 decades that is 20 years regardless of the power changes/mid terms etc.

I emphasize that every such agreement MUST come with iron clad guarantees to enforce this agreement and ensuring the safety of all people.

If this type of agreement is achieved and employed, this will forever remove the stigma of injustices done by A-folks while sufficiently putting the ball in T-folks court addressing the compliant by T-folks that they never got an opportunity to exercise their say in the matters.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby milindc » 19 Oct 2011 08:29

Satya_anveshi wrote:Creation of a separate Telangana with Hyd as its unconditional and unfettered capital is a viable solution. This does not mean a state created out of hate by T-folks rather a state to protect from intentional and institutional hate by A folks. This a big difference.

Now, if there is indeed some alternate reality to the the deliberate mauling of all agreements, mass scale deprivation of job & educational opportunities, and diversion of resources for anything but the betterment of T-region, then I suggest the following alternate solution which can be incorporated within the UNIFIED AP:

If the T folks claim is that they were not given due share in the power - this is a self-evident and acknowledged fact even in SKC report, then they NEED to be given that power - T representative to be CM with unfettered/unconditional for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunities to correct course;

If T-Folks claim that their water/power resource management suffered under constant change of "priorities" or technical viabilities and what have you - this claim is recognized, endorsed by and large in SKC, and self-evident fact..then water/irrigation /power ministry MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides for the projects to begin and complete

If T-Folks claim is that revenue from T areas are diverted to the progress of A and to the disadvantage of T, then revenue ministry must be divided into 2 for each of the regions ( T and A) each at cabinet level to manage/tax as needed even if at separate level

If T-Folks claim is that educational opportunities are deprived - then Education ministry of the state MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunity to course correct

If T-Folks claim is that employment opportunities are deprived - then Employment ministry of the state MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunity to course correct

Along with this, for a period that is sufficiently provides redressal of grievances, all the ministries within AP MUST be shared between the representatives of T/A (NO T/A/R regions but just A and T) along the share of population in both regions.

Hyd should be de-cluttered of some of the institutions and spread out to different parts of AP some of which MUST be located in Telangana…if OPEN university goes to Nalgonda…that is fine, JNTU should be moved or created another in another part of Telangana, new institutions should be created evenly in all of AP..Immediate initiation of maintenance of existing dams and initiation of Srisailam left canal will address those concerns as well. this will give people something to feel the change hear and now.

In all the above, the time period in question should be arrived at consensus within GOI. My own guesstimate would be not less than 2 decades that is 20 years regardless of the power changes/mid terms etc.

I emphasize that every such agreement MUST come with iron clad guarantees to enforce this agreement and ensuring the safety of all people.

If this type of agreement is achieved and employed, this will forever remove the stigma of injustices done by A-folks while sufficiently putting the ball in T-folks court addressing the compliant by T-folks that they never got an opportunity to exercise their say in the matters.


Concur with your solution, apart from the water resources part assuming it means Lift Irrigation of Deccan Plateau; Instead my proposal would be to give Rs5000 per year per acre subsidy for the farmer for next 20 years.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Satya_anveshi » 19 Oct 2011 08:32

Does the "Telugu" pride allow for such a power sharing, understanding, and redressal of the problem? Do the T-folks on ground even accept such a solution (I know may think cheat me once.shame on...)? or for some neo-liberals this approach sounds too parochial in this day and age while offering no good solutions?

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Muppalla » 19 Oct 2011 16:37

S_A garu, I am pretty confident if T-agitators comes up with what you have written then with in 24 hours they will be accepted. It will also kill family based parties like TDP and Jagan or they have to really change to survive. Nothing in the list is really not doable or something to oppose.

Your time period of 20 years is also too long even to think of resource crunch etc and hence there should be no issue.

I don't know about employment opportunities stuff as in this century what we have is mostly private sector and how to enforce reservations for T folks only? Regarding Government jobs in T though there is a lot of rhetoric the offices are seen mostly with T employees only otherwise the sakala janula samme would be impossible. Even in the state secretariat which is actually for the entire state, 50% of employees are from T.

Regarding educational facilities even now there is a regional reservation. In OU, Kakateeya Univ it is 80% to T. In AU and NU it is 80% to A and same in Venkateswara and Krishnadevaraya Univs too. In 1969 itself the reservations are done and are strictly implemented. The rule is that a person has to reside in that region for more than seven years to be part of 80%. Even in REC, JNTU the 50% AP seats are divided based on population sizes of three regions of 33%A:22%T:15%R (approx). In edu they call AU, OU and SVU regions. Private institutions also have the same rules but these days with 100 engineering colleges per district there are a lot of seats empty anyway.

Government run primary education is in pitiable state in the entire state and what is the difference if T person is made edu-minister is really needs to be seen.

What I am trying to say is except for the water resources management stuff, everything is in the private sector. Even after all this the wealth on the otherside will be increased by another four times in twenty years. When you see a balance sheet at that time is it will be same gap as being observed now.

If you take away water resources stuff and talk about purely infrastructure stuff - T minus Hyd is in a far better shape when compared to the entire region. This time I visited all regions and travelled by road into deeper A and T regions and the roads in T are excellent as compared to road in in Andhra region.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ashashi » 19 Oct 2011 17:07

ShyamSP wrote:It was in response to another poster's question that if same Madras split reasons apply to Telangana.
> What why did andhrites fight against madras presidency and get separated? Do some of those reasons apply to telangana now.
T movement is based on "Andhra people robbed Telanagana". To negate the reason I said Madras split was not based on "Tamil people robbed Andhra". Hope that clarifies.

As for pan-Indian vision, I merely stated such vision whether people/states are true to that spirit or not is different question.


Isnt "Andhra people robbed Telanagana" a simplistic reasoning worthy of desi sensationalist media?

Did you see my post on page 121?

After the formation of the AP state, development of Hyderabad is driving by Andhra people and money. Unfortunately, development is restricted to Hyderabad and surroundings excluding the old city.

Several years ago, New Jersey state approved building of Casinos in Atlantic City as it is supposed to bring huge influx of capital and jobs to the much needed city. Casinos were built and people came. But these people never stopped got out of their cars until they were in the parking lots of the Casinos. I never do either. As a result, the influx of people did not generate any revenues for the local businesses. Most of the employees of the Casinos are from surrounding areas. So the city did not benefit much from the Casinos.

Telangana is a similar case. Visitors from Godavari come to Hyderabad and go back. They do not stop anywhere else in Telangana, but they do not mind stopping at Vijayawada.

Bottomline we need to understand is, the telangana resentment is not created by Chenna Reddy or Chandrasekhara Rao. They capitalized it for political gains.

The resentment is not limited to Telangana. Its very much present in Rayalaseema too. There is a huge difference in standard if living in neighboring districts of Nellore and Cuddapah. Nellore is prosperous and thriving where as Cuddapah is backward and poor. As a result, the people of cuddapah have resentment against people of Nellore.

Recently we have seeing reports of how popular Modi is among the Gujarat Muslims. There are no roits, no agitation or no demostrations in Gujarat. Everyone seems to be going on their business. Reason? Progress is reaching everyone.

Progress has to reach telangana and seema peoples. Until then, we will have resentment, and politicians will capitalize on it.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ashashi » 19 Oct 2011 17:15

Muppalla wrote:What could be that? A seperate state born using hatered as a tool to achieve it?

As I said in simple terms, what T really wanted was an article 371 for their region so that other will not be able to settle there and they can develop at their own pace with no competetion from others.


When faced with problems, several people will come up with solutions they think is fair and feasible. Some plans would be good, some bad. Its unfair to take a single bad proposal from a couple of NRIs and paint it all telangana peoples with it.

Why not be constructive and make your proposals for bringing progress and prosperity to ALL telugu peoples.
Last edited by ashashi on 19 Oct 2011 21:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby chaanakya » 19 Oct 2011 17:32

A farmer was visited by his two married daughters. Sun was shining very harsh. One daughter, married to a farmer said unhappily that Sun God is angry with us and there would be famine and we would suffer. Another daughter, married to a potter, was very happy and said Sun God is beneficial and they would do good business.

Even Sun God can not make ALL happy.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ashashi » 19 Oct 2011 18:17

chaanakya wrote:
Even Sun God can not make ALL happy.


Happiness is a state of mind. It often has nothing to do with reality.

Progress is real outcome which can be measured.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby chaanakya » 19 Oct 2011 19:23

Progress is just a means to achieve happiness.
Unhappiness with "progress" is no progress at all.Remember Leo Tolstoy.

T people are worried about their progress and prosperity which "seems" to have been denied to them and therefore they are "unhappy".

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby SwamyG » 19 Oct 2011 19:53

ShyamSp:
Thanks for the clarification. I did read, earlier, the question you point; I follow this thread but do not jump in often :-). After living in Hyderabad, I have emotional and monetary attachments with that city. One of the best cities I lived in - in fact all cities that I lived in are the best according to me - including the current one.

I do like to point out the Dravidian movement did not start out as a non-nationalistic movement. It primarily started out as a movement against brahmins and casteism. Several groups mushroomed in the late 19th century championing for the under privileged, it comprised of several non-brahmin FCs and BCs. In Madras Presidency, tamilians, telugu and malayalees formed a high percentage and hence some of the leaders came from these lingual groups. Over time, some of these groups merged and split leading to the early 20th century groups. These eventually gave birth to some of the political parties in TN.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby SwamyG » 19 Oct 2011 20:02

Satya garu:
Your lists of "musts" are not practical and in fact lead to more takleef and divisiveness. If it is going to be United, then there should be no "musts" or "reservations". In a democracy, people have every right to assemble, highlight and protests. So if T continues to suffer, then its MLAs and MPs must be held accountable. Reserving or creating special seats or privileges in a government is not a good sign. It is just postponing the eventually break-up.

If the people and parties cannot agree on a Unified AP, then it is better for split with Hyderabad fully in T.

I do agree that any one region or city should not be the focus of development. Excluding geographic factors, development must be spread through out the state (and the country).

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 19 Oct 2011 20:09

Saar, I have not seen a single case here made on the practical and more realistic justification of upward socio-economic and political mobility for Telugu speakers that made status quo in the then Madras Presidency impossible. Instead we have "pan-Indian visions", "Dravidian movement", and all kindsa junk-level theories that are so far away from the root cause of forward social mobility. Sadly and ironically, as you might know, exceptionalism as a tool and as a metric for nationalism is not exceptional to Telugu speakers alone. For those jotting out exceptionalism as a yardstick for the case of AP either in 1953 or Telengana now, exceptionalism of a different kind that does nt fit within their definition and idea of nationalism does nt pass muster. But yea let those facts remain hidden in the deeper crevices of certain useless blogs :). Why disturb the amity of the believers?

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby RamaY » 19 Oct 2011 20:15

Satya_anveshi wrote:If the T folks claim is that they were not given due share in the power - this is a self-evident and acknowledged fact even in SKC report, then they NEED to be given that power - T representative to be CM with unfettered/unconditional for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunities to correct course;

agree - for up to 10 years not more than that. Once the key telangana projects (identified at the beginning) are completed this condition is removed. Prolonged reservation for one region is not democratic.

If T-Folks claim that their water/power resource management suffered under constant change of "priorities" or technical viabilities and what have you - this claim is recognized, endorsed by and large in SKC, and self-evident fact..then water/irrigation /power ministry MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides for the projects to begin and complete

Strongly agree - minimum 10 years (so key projects are completed)

If T-Folks claim is that revenue from T areas are diverted to the progress of A and to the disadvantage of T, then revenue ministry must be divided into 2 for each of the regions ( T and A) each at cabinet level to manage/tax as needed even if at separate level

Agree. Instead of splitting the revenue ministry; the budget should have four tabs - Overall state, Telangana, Rayalaseema and Andhra regions. It may also ensure that some projects in non-T areas, especially the backward regions in Andhra and Rayalaseema doesn't suffer.

If T-Folks claim is that educational opportunities are deprived - then Education ministry of the state MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunity to course correct

If T-Folks claim is that employment opportunities are deprived - then Employment ministry of the state MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunity to course correct


Agree. Along with this, I propose working with the central government to raise telangana battalions in para-military, Police and newly created Emergency/Disaster management agency. That may offer more employment opportunities to Telangana youth.

Along with this, for a period that is sufficiently provides redressal of grievances, all the ministries within AP MUST be shared between the representatives of T/A (NO T/A/R regions but just A and T) along the share of population in both regions.

Not sure if this works. Instead the structure of regional councils could be more effective.

Hyd should be de-cluttered of some of the institutions and spread out to different parts of AP some of which MUST be located in Telangana…if OPEN university goes to Nalgonda…that is fine, JNTU should be moved or created another in another part of Telangana, new institutions should be created evenly in all of AP..Immediate initiation of maintenance of existing dams and initiation of Srisailam left canal will address those concerns as well. this will give people something to feel the change hear and now.


Strongly agree. Since population of Hyderabad alone is expected to cross 1 Crore in a decade or so, it is better to leave the existing institutions as is and NEW institutions are established in all regions. The vision of one university for each district is a very good one and must be supported by providing sufficient funds. It is not that difficult for a state budget of > Rs1,00,000 crores to spend Rs 2700 crores per year (2.7% of the budget) on higher education.

I emphasize that every such agreement MUST come with iron clad guarantees to enforce this agreement and ensuring the safety of all people.


Do not agree.

The ultimate guarantor in such situations is the citizenry itself. The telangana leadership (from village ward member to ZPPC/MLA/MP/CM) must provide an annual report to Telangana public and Telangana regional council.

Once this type of agreement is announced the entire responsibility lies entirely with Telangana leadership.

Another proposal

I strongly propose that water resources are allocated by region so each region is ensured of this essential natural resource (especially given the future climatic predictions). These water resources have to be preserved, developed and assured for those regions only.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ashashi » 19 Oct 2011 21:16

Satya_anveshi wrote:Creation of a separate Telangana with Hyd as its unconditional and unfettered capital is a viable solution. This does not mean a state created out of hate by T-folks rather a state to protect from intentional and institutional hate by A folks. This a big difference.

Now, if there is indeed some alternate reality to the the deliberate mauling of all agreements, mass scale deprivation of job & educational opportunities, and diversion of resources for anything but the betterment of T-region, then I suggest the following alternate solution which can be incorporated within the UNIFIED AP:

If the T folks claim is that they were not given due share in the power - this is a self-evident and acknowledged fact even in SKC report, then they NEED to be given that power - T representative to be CM with unfettered/unconditional for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunities to correct course;

If T-Folks claim that their water/power resource management suffered under constant change of "priorities" or technical viabilities and what have you - this claim is recognized, endorsed by and large in SKC, and self-evident fact..then water/irrigation /power ministry MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides for the projects to begin and complete

If T-Folks claim is that revenue from T areas are diverted to the progress of A and to the disadvantage of T, then revenue ministry must be divided into 2 for each of the regions ( T and A) each at cabinet level to manage/tax as needed even if at separate level

If T-Folks claim is that educational opportunities are deprived - then Education ministry of the state MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunity to course correct

If T-Folks claim is that employment opportunities are deprived - then Employment ministry of the state MUST be reserved to Telangana representative for a time period that sufficiently provides opportunity to course correct

Along with this, for a period that is sufficiently provides redressal of grievances, all the ministries within AP MUST be shared between the representatives of T/A (NO T/A/R regions but just A and T) along the share of population in both regions.

Hyd should be de-cluttered of some of the institutions and spread out to different parts of AP some of which MUST be located in Telangana…if OPEN university goes to Nalgonda…that is fine, JNTU should be moved or created another in another part of Telangana, new institutions should be created evenly in all of AP..Immediate initiation of maintenance of existing dams and initiation of Srisailam left canal will address those concerns as well. this will give people something to feel the change hear and now.

In all the above, the time period in question should be arrived at consensus within GOI. My own guesstimate would be not less than 2 decades that is 20 years regardless of the power changes/mid terms etc.

I emphasize that every such agreement MUST come with iron clad guarantees to enforce this agreement and ensuring the safety of all people.

If this type of agreement is achieved and employed, this will forever remove the stigma of injustices done by A-folks while sufficiently putting the ball in T-folks court addressing the compliant by T-folks that they never got an opportunity to exercise their say in the matters.


Good post. None of the items are unreasonable. However, there is a problem. What about Rayalaseema? Does that region needs to keep suffering while we address Telangana issues?

Why not think along about "Andhra Pradesh" master plan which addresses issues of all peoples?

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby vnadendla » 19 Oct 2011 21:31

RamaY wrote:
I strongly propose that water resources are allocated by region so each region is ensured of this essential natural resource (especially given the future climatic predictions). These water resources have to be preserved, developed and assured for those regions only.


Will you also ensure the same food output from the water? We need to feed a billion people. If we divert (a non AP example to keep emotions out) Ganges water to Rajastan in equal measure we will all starve.

Of course we in Chittoor would like to have an equal share of Godavari and Krishna water diverted to us at common expense. But if Deltas grow fewer crops as a result, and our output is not enough to make up then we will all starve.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby RamaY » 19 Oct 2011 21:44

^
vnadendla garu,

We need to see the issue holistically. Perhaps we should demand coastal farmers to come up with ideas to use less water to get the same harvest.

I was talking about distributing the water for all three regions of AP. Aren't we interested in having equal per-capita allocation of national resources? That need not mean each and every citizen gets his ration of natural resources and is asked to fend for himself.

I seriously doubt Coastal districts would lose anything significant if we come up with this allocation and develop T/R projects.

We need innovative approaches to the problem. Now we have the luxury of Capital and Technology that we did not have just 10 years ago (the state budget in CBN days was in the range of 20-30000 crores where as it is 100-150000 crores a 500% increase).

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby vnadendla » 19 Oct 2011 22:55

RamaY wrote:^
vnadendla garu,

We need to see the issue holistically. Perhaps we should demand coastal farmers to come up with ideas to use less water to get the same harvest.

I was talking about distributing the water for all three regions of AP. Aren't we interested in having equal per-capita allocation of national resources? That need not mean each and every citizen gets his ration of natural resources and is asked to fend for himself.

I seriously doubt Coastal districts would lose anything significant if we come up with this allocation and develop T/R projects.

We need innovative approaches to the problem. Now we have the luxury of Capital and Technology that we did not have just 10 years ago (the state budget in CBN days was in the range of 20-30000 crores where as it is 100-150000 crores a 500% increase).


Good. For a second I thought otherwise.

Anyway this should also go into business feasability calculations of a project.
1) How much will the project cost to build and maintain
2) How much will the project cost for changes to existing users who are forced to modify.
3) How much will the project return?

What I want T-Vadis to understand is that they cannot expect loss making enterprises/projects to be set up to give them employment. I will understand if you say some Capital is reserved for profit making enterprises/projects in T region even though they are not the most optimum use of money since there is a social purpose to it. This applies to ALL regions.
Last edited by vnadendla on 19 Oct 2011 23:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby milindc » 19 Oct 2011 22:58

RamaY wrote:^
vnadendla garu,

We need to see the issue holistically. Perhaps we should demand coastal farmers to come up with ideas to use less water to get the same harvest.

I was talking about distributing the water for all three regions of AP. Aren't we interested in having equal per-capita allocation of national resources? That need not mean each and every citizen gets his ration of natural resources and is asked to fend for himself.

I seriously doubt Coastal districts would lose anything significant if we come up with this allocation and develop T/R projects.

We need innovative approaches to the problem. Now we have the luxury of Capital and Technology that we did not have just 10 years ago (the state budget in CBN days was in the range of 20-30000 crores where as it is 100-150000 crores a 500% increase).


The Lift Irrigation of Deccan Plateau while a great vision, shouldn't be attempted in this energy deficient environment. We don't even have enough electricity to light up homes 24x7.
Have you done any calculation on the energy costs of this endeavour and the resultant productivity gained from it.
Focus should be on outright subsidies for Drip Irrigation and building water harvesting structures. Also for betterment of Telangana, the focus and money should be spent on Job Creation in non-agriculture industries.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ShyamSP » 19 Oct 2011 23:18

Kakkaji wrote:
ramana wrote:WHile bemoaning the BJP's inability to gain in AP by 'exploiting' the situation the writer does pull an == with INC incompetence.

The article is hogwash as BJP does not have dog in the fight. Its a zero in Andhra (by becoming junior partner to TDP for whatever reasons) and has reduced to that in Telangana (where it cant win on its own).


As it has no chances it should have embraced a united state and got the support for its national stance. Instead it supported breakup of the state thinking that it will gain in that smaller area.


ramanaji:

The BJP has always supported smaller states, for better governance. They have qualified their preference for smaller states by saying that the existing (larger) state's assembly has to pass a resolution agreeing to a division before a state should be divided. This is the principle they followed when Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, and Uttaranchal were created.

I have not been following the Telangana issue that closely but, under the above norms, the current Andhra Pradesh assembly has to pass a resolution agreeing to division before Telangana should be separated from Andhra. For that, the Telangana folks have to work things out with the rest of Andhra folks so that a majority of current Andhra assembly will pass the resolution.

Of course the Congress Govt. at the Center is free to ignore any norms the BJP followed, and do as it pleases.


As per Advaniji, assembly resolution is not needed for T. There goes their BJP's "qualifications", "norms", and principles for state divisions. They haven't qualified the T state for better governance also.

He goes on Yatra on Corruption when he enters AP he tosses the goal and engages in separatist issues to get votes. He was tall man when he engaged in past Yatras now he looks pigmy with this "disintegration" Yatra. Wonder BJP proposes splitting Gujarat into 3 parts?

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Muppalla » 19 Oct 2011 23:45

ashashi wrote:
Muppalla wrote:What could be that? A seperate state born using hatered as a tool to achieve it?

As I said in simple terms, what T really wanted was an article 371 for their region so that other will not be able to settle there and they can develop at their own pace with no competetion from others.


When faced with problems, several people will come up with solutions they think is fair and feasible. Some plans would be good, some bad. Its unfair to take a single bad proposal from a couple of NRIs and paint it all telangana peoples with it.

Why not be constructive and make your proposals for bringing progress and prosperity to ALL telugu peoples.


:rotfl: :rotfl:
Sorry - You think I am not constructive?

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby RamaY » 20 Oct 2011 00:28

milindc wrote:The Lift Irrigation of Deccan Plateau while a great vision, shouldn't be attempted in this energy deficient environment. We don't even have enough electricity to light up homes 24x7.
Have you done any calculation on the energy costs of this endeavour and the resultant productivity gained from it.
Focus should be on outright subsidies for Drip Irrigation and building water harvesting structures. Also for betterment of Telangana, the focus and money should be spent on Job Creation in non-agriculture industries.


milindc garu,

I checked various on-the-river dams around Telangana area. Most of these reservoirs are on 800-1400ft elevation where as the average elevation of Deccan Plateau is 2000ft.

Assuming a 500ft lift-irrigation and 60day rainy season (I don't expect to lift 365 days - but only during rainy season) we will need 15-20MW electricity to lift 1 TMC water.

To lift a 100TMC water (sufficient for 500,000 acres along with drinking water), we would need 1500-2000MW new capacity (75000-100000 crore capital). Please note that this generation capacity is available for other use during non-rainy season.

We are looking at a 8% RoI economic activity if we can generate Rs30,000 output per acre (which I think is doable).

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ramana » 20 Oct 2011 00:47

And order a couple of US nook plants and everyone is happy!

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby vnadendla » 20 Oct 2011 01:26

RamaY wrote:
milindc wrote:The Lift Irrigation of Deccan Plateau while a great vision, shouldn't be attempted in this energy deficient environment. We don't even have enough electricity to light up homes 24x7.
Have you done any calculation on the energy costs of this endeavour and the resultant productivity gained from it.
Focus should be on outright subsidies for Drip Irrigation and building water harvesting structures. Also for betterment of Telangana, the focus and money should be spent on Job Creation in non-agriculture industries.


milindc garu,

I checked various on-the-river dams around Telangana area. Most of these reservoirs are on 800-1400ft elevation where as the average elevation of Deccan Plateau is 2000ft.

Assuming a 500ft lift-irrigation and 60day rainy season (I don't expect to lift 365 days - but only during rainy season) we will need 15-20MW electricity to lift 1 TMC water.

To lift a 100TMC water (sufficient for 500,000 acres along with drinking water), we would need 1500-2000MW new capacity (75000-100000 crore capital). Please note that this generation capacity is available for other use during non-rainy season.

We are looking at a 8% RoI economic activity if we can generate Rs30,000 output per acre (which I think is doable).


Can you post detailed calculations. I need to see if you included everything. Also include efficiency factors. The cost of running the plant etc.


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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ashashi » 20 Oct 2011 02:00

RamaY wrote:
milindc garu,

I checked various on-the-river dams around Telangana area. Most of these reservoirs are on 800-1400ft elevation where as the average elevation of Deccan Plateau is 2000ft.

Assuming a 500ft lift-irrigation and 60day rainy season (I don't expect to lift 365 days - but only during rainy season) we will need 15-20MW electricity to lift 1 TMC water.

To lift a 100TMC water (sufficient for 500,000 acres along with drinking water), we would need 1500-2000MW new capacity (75000-100000 crore capital). Please note that this generation capacity is available for other use during non-rainy season.

We are looking at a 8% RoI economic activity if we can generate Rs30,000 output per acre (which I think is doable).


Man, you guys are good.

Out of curiosity googled and came across a wonderful book on Polavaram project issues. Its available online:
Google book

Did a quick browse. Chapter 4 talks about irrigation for Telangana and Chapter 7 is about telangana concerns by TRS member(?). Going to read at leisure. Highly recommended.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby Muppalla » 20 Oct 2011 02:06

ramana wrote:And order a couple of US nook plants and everyone is happy!


For Nuke plants, lift irrigation projects, you need a lot of land aquisition. The problems there again will be about discrimination etc.

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ramana » 20 Oct 2011 02:36

Oh I just wanted the USRNIs to be happy too!

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Re: Telangana Monitor

Postby ShyamSP » 20 Oct 2011 02:57

Muppalla wrote:
ramana wrote:And order a couple of US nook plants and everyone is happy!


For Nuke plants, lift irrigation projects, you need a lot of land aquisition. The problems there again will be about discrimination etc.



One of aspects of Polavaram project is to use Hydal power to fund power for lift irrigations upstream in Godavari in Telanagan area.

T vadis are against Polavarm (again the neighboring country behavior). Probably those 4-5 Coastal district people should become Pakis and
use that Hydal power themselves and shout non-Andhras are robbing their resources (including Gas offshore)


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