Telangana Monitor

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 09 Dec 2011 11:59

IMVHO, after close involvement with his organization over the past 5 years, I've come to the conclusion that it is already infiltrated by political interests. there has been a subtle, but over the years increasingly obvious shift towards "grand projects". before, they used to have grand projects which reached grass roots. Geetha Jyothi program was one such back in the 90's. it was widely popular in all regions. incidentally, the shift starts appearing right after the success of Geetha Jyothi.

also, I've been informed that it has become difficult for the organization to buy land in Coastal areas. it wasn't the case before, but these past few years, they're saying Govt is putting more and more hurdles if they want to buy land. twice now, I think they tried to buy small (relatively) pieces of land in Vishakha and Nellore. both times, there was a lot of harakiri by govt it seems. the Vishakha land was handed over and then retaken, but finally handed over. the Nellore project was stuck too, not sure about recent happenings.

either way, I've heard him express vocally that the authorities in coastal areas are almost hostile in some cases.

TIFWIW. I've come to the conclusion that organizations like that can't really effect bottoms up change. too much baggage with "tradition".

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 13 Dec 2011 19:59

News paper reports about the Hyderabad State Assembly debate on the AP formation.
http://www.visalandhra.org/hyd-assembly ... on-merger/

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Dec 2011 05:54

TWIW. This is the saga of news with no decision one way or other.

UPA to say No Telangana in New Year

The UPA-2 government will most probably begin the New Year with a firm “no” to Telangana statehood citing lack of consensus among political parties over the demand in Andhra Pradesh.

Sources said that Congress president Sonia Gandhi will take up the issue at the core committee meeting in January to which both chief minister N. Kiran Kumar Reddy and PCC chief Botsa Satyanarayana will be invited for their “final” views on Telangana, including their preparedness to face any situation that may arise due to the decision.
Highly-placed sources confirmed that the announcement would be made in January to put an end to the uncertainty that has been dogging the state for the last two years.
After weighing the pros and cons and obtaining the views of coalition partners like Mr Sharad Pawar (NCP), Ms Mamata Banerjee (Trinamul Congress) and Dr M. Karunanidhi (DMK), sources said that the Congress leadership had finally decided to reject the Telangana demand.
Sources pointed out that though the Congress had been accused of dilly-dallying over the issue, it was ready to effectively tackle the criticism that is bound to follow after the announcement by accusing the Telugu Desam of having an inconsistent policy on the issue.
They added that the Congress central leadership had come to the conclusion that even after announcing the “No Telangana” decision, they would have almost two-and-a-half years to repair the damage and improve its image.
Apparently, Congress leaders had secretly parleyed with Telangana Rashtra Samiti chief K. Chandrasekhar Rao and revived their earlier condition that the TRS should announce its merger with the Congress if at all he was interested in a Telangana state. Mr Rao apparently rejected the proposal outright.
Following this, the Congress central leadership had met and reviewed the situation in November and decided on going against the Telangana statehood demand.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Dec 2011 05:37

devesh wrote:Narayana Rao garu,
I will write up my concerns and email you. but I feel that time has come for us to do something. these days I find myself increasingly restless. there is only so long we can be satisfied with learning on internet forums. at some point, time comes for active field work.

give me time, I'll write to you.

waiting for your mail Guruji.

Dasari · Post by **Dasari** » 27 Dec 2011 13:42

I just returned back from AP. The people in Telangana are so polarised that the separate movement is irreversible. There is no way KCR or any of the Telangana leaders can quit separate movement. It may be true that people all over India are unhappy with their respective governments but here In Telangana that resentment is successfully translated to Andhra hatred and it cannot be changed. At the same time by looking at the forces on the other side, it is even more harder to envision the rest of the satate without Hyderabad. It will never happen, even with BJP at the center.

Therefore Congress will continue the ambiguity, although it may, more categorically, say that there is no definite time frame for the formation of Telangana. But they dare not kill the prospect of separate T. This may continue until 2014 (and beyond ) unless there is some break through on some sort of compromise on Hyderabad. That will be the final end to this unfortunate saga.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 27 Dec 2011 19:31

Narayana Rao wrote:
devesh wrote:Narayana Rao garu,
I will write up my concerns and email you. but I feel that time has come for us to do something. these days I find myself increasingly restless. there is only so long we can be satisfied with learning on internet forums. at some point, time comes for active field work.

give me time, I'll write to you.
waiting for your mail Guruji.

sorry. the wait must continue till January. on vacation. Also moving out of current location. so lots of changes.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Jan 2012 05:51

rediff has this news item.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120103.htm

But nothing on the ground suggest any immediate patch up. Jagan is/was however saying that he will support UPA in Delhi after next parliamentory elections.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Jan 2012 12:05

Narayana Rao wrote:rediff has this news item.

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 120103.htm

But nothing on the ground suggest any immediate patch up. Jagan is/was however saying that he will support UPA in Delhi after next parliamentory elections.

What was Chiranjeevi before 2009 elections?? I had correctly predicted PRP was a INC plant which will merge with INC. The aim of Jagan in 2014 is to divide the anti-incumbancy vote to help INC. In our democracy, if someone can ween away 3-4% votes from the Opposition camp in crucial constituencies he helps you win.

INC knows its Governance record is crap, thats why they will never come out with an "INDIA SHINING" campaign. They are party for infighting, poverty and communal riots. Prominent people convicted in the Godhra Train burning incident were members of INC> Offcource ignored by the ~~PR WING of the INC~~ Media.

As RG states of 60 years of Rule by his family and 2 generations of Babus, Politicos and Media eating out their hands through carrot and tick policy, "HE IS TRYING TO FIX THE SYSTEM". i.e He is Good and Great but we INDIANS i.e otherwise called as Aam Aadmi are corrupt, lazy and incompetent.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Jan 2012 21:27

I tell you uncle is fascinated with Hyderabad to figure out how to benefit:

‘Hyderabad of yore cradle of ganga-jamni tehzeeb'

‘Hyderabad of yore cradle of ganga-jamni tehzeeb'
J. S. Ifthekhar
Share · print · T+
The Hindu American Historian Prof. Karen Leonard (University of California, Los Angeles) presenting her paper at MANUU. Related
TOPICS
Andhra Pradesh

Hyderabad

India

Andhra Pradesh

People now may be sharply divided on religious lines but the Hyderabad of yesteryears presented a successful example of a pluralistic society. Regardless of their religious affiliations everyone participated in the dominant public culture, especially those living in the neighbourhoods of the walled City.

“The Indo-Muslim practices are not evidence of a cultural synthesis, syncretism or hybridity. Rather they are evidence of a successful plural society,” remarked Karen Leonard, professor of Anthropology, University of California, Irvine.

She was delivering a lecture on ‘Indo-Muslim culture in Hyderabad – Old City neighbourhoods in the 19 century' at the Maulana Azad National Urdu University. Prof. Leonard focused on the history of Hyderabad state in Deccan as part of the fifth biennial convention of the Association for the Study of Persianate Societies.

3 neighbourwoods
She talked about three contrasting neighbourhoods of the old city – Shahalibanda, Chowk Maidan Khan and Hussainialam – and highlighted their differences and distinct cultural practices.

Hindus and Muslims as also Telugu, Marathi, Kanada, Hindi and Urdu speakers took part in the public culture of their place and time. The Kayasth caste, Ms. Leonard said, were characterised as ‘half Muslim' since many of its members became prominent administrators for Muslim rulers in India and also emerged as scholars and poets in Arabic, Persian and Urdu.

Shahalibanda was essentially a site of military establishments. It was home to the leading military noble family of Paigahs and Gaur Kayasth ‘serrishtahdars' (managers) of military and household units.

Residents here came from many cultural backgrounds and economic levels. Imposing residences of Hindu and Muslim nobles and military commanders shared space with small communities of tanners, salt makers, grain carriers and goat sellers.

Enthusiastic celebrations
Muharram was enthusiastically observed and the Kayasths kept ‘alams' in their homes and built Ashoorkhanas. Some Kayasth families even fasted like Shias. Hindu festivals such as Ramlila celebrations were privately sponsored in Shahalibanda.

The Malwala family was the wealthiest family in Chowk Maidan Khan locality. The family supported the neighbourhood mosques and donated money in Ramzan. During Muharram, the Malwala family displayed ‘alams', set up ‘abdarkhanas' to serve ‘sherbet' to people.

Hussainialam, according to Prof. Leonard, was more crowded and its population heterogeneous. The Kayasths here were Saksenas, Bhatnagars and Srivastavas. Some Brahmin families and Bohra Muslims also lived here.

Referring to the literary front, Prof. Leonard recalled how these localities produced famous Hindi poets of Hyderabad. The literary activity revolved around Persian till the late 19 century when Urdu became a popular medium of expression. Many Kayasth poets were deeply influenced by Sufi thoughts. Prof. Leonard recited the lines of Bansi Raja of Hussainialam:

I do not put tilak,

It's just another headache

Nor do I perform sejdah,

It makes a black spot on my face

Convienently forgets the series of atrocities on Hindus of composite Hyderabad.

Someone said a a wolf that has lost its teeth is a saint.

Those Hindu families quoted are a good example of Telugu saying" Aaru ella savasm cheeste varu veeru ayyaru!"

Living together wifor six years they became indistingushiable!

What the Telugus made was move the center of the new city far away from the old ghettos.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 06 Jan 2012 23:00

Karen Leonard seems to be highly reputed in Indian studies. her most original theory is the theory of Mughal Decline based on financial instability of the empire due to the troubles with Marathas. on this issue, she differs from the Aligarh wallahs and rightly so.

but of course, she is ultimately an American scholar with her own prejudices and agendas. the interest in Hyderabad in recent years is indicative of the things that they fear. they want a hold on the Deccan and make sure that a "Maratha 2.0" or "Shivaji 2.0" doesn't happen. their increasing interest means that they have reasons to believe that such a process in underway and they fear it so they have to stop it.

they have rightly recognized that the South has been relatively free of Islamic oppression and trauma and therefore, in an age when Christianity can't overtly commit those kind of atrocities and impose memories of trauma, they have to take other steps to ensure the people of the area don't start moving away from the carefully reconstructed history of India under the guiding hand of Britain and then later under the legacy of the Gandhi-Nehru era.

it is disturbing that they have the sources and networks which have alerted them to this possibility. this means that several sections and areas of trade/business/administration/politicians have already been infiltrated to keep a careful tab on emerging trends...

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 06 Jan 2012 23:39

Karen Leonard had a career fascination with UP kayasthas of Hyderabad. As I understand her Ph.D thesis in anthropology was on this subject. Her grasp of Telugu culture of Hyderabad and Telangana is much weaker. She speaks fluent Urdu but no Telugu. Therefore she has no access to intellectuals of Nizam days like late Suravaram Pratapa Reddy. Her flaw is that she is apparently not bothered by this gap in her scholarship.

To my knowledge there has not been a single Telugu civil or military official at a senior level in Hyderabad under the Nizam. Akkanna & Madanna under the outlier last Qutb Shahi ruler Tanashah were the sole top-level Telugu officials in Hyderabad for about 400 years afaik. And those two were lynched by Muslim mobs for being kaffirs.

BTW her late husband John Leonard specialized in Veeresalingam and did know Telugu.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2012 00:08

Wow The amount of knowledge on BRF is amazing.
No wonder she was brought to appear to praise IM culture. Maybe related to the battering of US image in TSP?

KLNM you are right. Only the Kayastha officials like Kishen Persad were given high office under the Mugalhai Nizams.
BTW under the Qutb Shahis, Telugus were also military leaders. Will give the quote from Narendra Luther's book in some time.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Jan 2012 00:23

ramana wrote:Wow The amount of knowledge on BRF is amazing.
No wonder she was brought to appear to praise IM culture. Maybe related to the battering of US image in TSP?

KLNM you are right. Only the Kayastha officials like Kishen Persad were given high office under the Mugalhai Nizams.
BTW under the Qutb Shahis, Telugus were also military leaders. Will give the quote from Narendra Luther's book in some time.

Correct, Luther's book mentions Telugu military and civil officers under Qutb Shahis. Though iirc no one at the level of general staff. I think that despite their Turkish roots, Bahmanis saw themselves as culturally south Indian (actually peninsular) in a loose sense. Nizam was an extension of mughalai model which was an alliance between persianized mongols and north indian Hindu elite. They kept the Telugu subjects from rebelling by supporting temples, jataras etc., shared feudal powers with the doras--mainly reddis and velamas-- but mostly shut them out of royal court, administration and military.

Nizami Hyderabad makes for a good scale model of the vision of what what paki elites keep lamenting about jinnah's liberal dream.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jan 2012 00:32

Bahamanis did not think of themselves as "south Indians". maybe some rare person did. but most of them had nothing but contempt and derision for the "dark skinned kafirs". their illustrious annual Jihads are very good example of what they thought of their subjects. there are several mentions of Vijayanagara having to retaliate against mass killings and destruction of Hindu property by the Bahamanis.

the Bahamanis had the dream of conquering all of South, but they exhausted themselves over a period of 200 years fighting Vijayanagara every few years. ultimately, their focus was on the fertile plains which they tried their best to conquer but failed. their incessant Jihads and ambitions sucked the Deccan dry. it took a 150 years after their fall for a Hindu retaliation to occur, from that part of their empire which they weren't focused on. the parts that they did focus on are still impoverished today. Northern Karnataka and Telangana are the areas which experienced annual Jihads and once every 20-25 years a mega Jihad where at least a 100,000 would be killed off within a span of a few months.

in the span of 200 years of confrontation between Bahamanis and Vijayanagara, there were entire stretches of 10-15 years where the Deccan was in Total War mode. they say that Total War was invented by Napoleon. I'm not so sure.

this 200 year confrontation and the continuing depredations until the Marathas pushed back the Mughals is probably the most traumatic period for the region in the last 3000 years of history...

miracle is even after such centuries long conflict, the region has retained its predominantly "Hindu" character. this is truly amazing...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2012 00:36

It was only in independent India that military service was an option for Telugus from the Asf Jahi Hyderabad. General Srinagesh was an exception. Even the police was not an option. I don't recall any Supdt of Police. Only inspectors and sub-inspectors and constables. Yet KCR fondly recalls the halcycon days of Nizami biryani days!

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Jan 2012 00:40

@devesh it is a relative assessment to say bahmanis were more southernized than nizam. I am far from implying any widespread romanticized syncreticism. The betrayal and murder of Rama Raya at rakkasi-tangadi prior to the founding of Hyderabad by the betrayer makes the founding of Hyderabad as tainted as the founding of ancient Rome following an act of betrayal and mass rape.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2012 00:42

Well said.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jan 2012 00:52

KLN ji, didn't know about Hyd being founded by the betrayer, but in that case, both Hyd and Mumbai are cities founded by RoP and RoL respectively to act as fountainheads of their respective Imperialist causes. The Telugu migrants moved the power center away from Old City and into newer areas which were predominantly based on entrepreneurial spirit and the working class habits. this is what has restored some amount of honor to Hyd. eventually, Hyd has to become Bhagyanagar and fully "Hinduized" to remove the taint of being founded by the traitor from 1565.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Jan 2012 00:53

ramana wrote:It was only in independent India that military service was an option for Telugus from the Asf Jahi Hyderabad. General Srinagesh was an exception. Even the police was not an option. I don't recall any Supdt of Police. Only inspectors and sub-inspectors and constables. Yet KCR fondly recalls the halcycon days of Nizami biryani days!

KCR's Telangana roots are weak. He is Telanganite like Jinnah was muslim, no offense to anyone.

As I think about Telangana people and and the emotions of Telangana movement, one thought comes to me: T identity is forged by shared experience of lack of control over their destiny. Underneath the people's joy at seeing Gen. Chowdary riding into town (reading this in Luther's book should be done in private as it can bring tears) was a hope of being able to spread their wings after 400 years. I don't think previous generation of seemandhras appreciated this feeling. Probably they just saw them as Telugu brothers whose yaasa can be made fun of in good spirit. Hope can turn to anger in such a situation. And T people have a streak of rage and rebellion--nizam didn't support temples out of sheer generosity.

And now, destiny has moved into the hands of globalized capital making the hope irrelevant. It is a big psychological wound. Healing process can start by trying to understand.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Jan 2012 00:55

devesh wrote:KLN ji, didn't know about Hyd being founded by the betrayer, but in that case, both Hyd and Mumbai are cities founded by RoP and RoL respectively to act as fountainheads of their respective Imperialist causes. The Telugu migrants moved the power center away from Old City and into newer areas which were predominantly based on entrepreneurial spirit and the working class habits. this is what has restored some amount of honor to Hyd. eventually, Hyd has to become Bhagyanagar and fully "Hinduized" to remove the taint of being founded by the traitor from 1565.

Hyderabad founder grew up as a royal "hostage" in the court of Rama Raya, who loved and trusted him like a son.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2012 00:58

In 2006, I met the uncle of my friend in Marredpally who was had fought against the Nizam's razakars. He was from the merchant community and had suffered a lot of broken bones etc but very cheerful. He told me life for a Hindu was very oppressive in their own land. And when they saw British India getting freedom while the oppression increased in Nizam's kingdom with Kasim Rizvi they had to do something to fight back.
As real freedom fighter he never took advantage of the perks and freebies in post independent India.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jan 2012 01:39

KLN garu,

I feel that I should thank you for your explanation of the T feeling. I've heard many gratuitous comments in the past about T-vadis being Pakis, etc. and the above post of yours is, refreshingly, a stark contrast to that.

not only did the Seemandhras not understand that feeling; instead when someone like PVNR tried to solve the imbalances by proposing land reforms, the SA elites were instrumental in thwarting those plans and even made the situation so untenable that PVNR had to leave.

in contrast to the T experience after joining with SA, other regions which went through the same Islamic experience underwent a different "reconfiguration". one of the things that contributed to the foundation of the Maratha empire was the land reforms of Shivaji. he recognized, rightly, that the imbalances created after long years under Islamic regimes had to be rectified before there could a solid administrative and social foundation for a "Hindu" empire. these moves earned him the respect of the rural masses and many of them later joined the Maratha armies after hearing of the Mughal depredations like the torture and murder of Sambhaji. Shivaji didn't deride his subjects for the "backwardness", instead he gave them reasons and incentives to be loyal to his state and his successors. such a "healing" has not happened with T. the old elite's activities have not been accounted for. the situation that they exploited has also not been rectified.

there were some like PVNR who were a new breed. also, many members of INC from T areas, supported PVNR's initiatives. unfortunately, these efforts were scuttled.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 07 Jan 2012 01:57

@devesh In the past I too have been guilty of viewing Telangana movement as "paki" in nature, partly based on naxal threat. I regret this now, after I have taken some time to think through and understand. It also matters that, ultimately, I feel that these are "my" people.

On the "paki" aspect, I think there are two points--first, people who are subjected to a pattern of oppression and abuse will pick up those same methods as ways to solve problems and gain control. Marxist writer Paolo Frere (Iirc) talks about this in the famous book "pedagogy of the oppressed".

Second, there is a difference between genuine aspiration to flourish and develop a collective identity and a paki-type desire by never-oppressed people to set up a system where X is always more paki because it is the destiny of X to rule.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2012 02:00

Read Justice P. Jagan Mohan Reddy's bio in google books. My father was his colleague in AP High Court.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 07 Jan 2012 02:52

PVs govt had to be removed because of jai Andhra movement

because of Nizam Mulki rules, which said every employee in hyderabad (the state capital) would have employees from outside hyderabad. This particular rule was put in by Nizam so as to monopolize the entire govt as muslim. The 1971 jai andhra movement was against this rule.

If people from a major part of state cannot by law be a part of the state capital employees, what kind of state are we talking about?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jan 2012 03:56

the mulki rule was a distraction. what were the SA elites doing till 1971 if they hated mulki rules so much? the main issue was the land reforms proposed by PVNR. right after PVNR came out with that proposal you see strong statements form SA politicians about "Telangana domination" and the "Jai Andhra". the Jai Andhra was mainly launched to put an end to any kind of reforms.

read "Eclipse of Reddy Raj: Attempted Restructuring of Congress Party Leadership in Andhra Pradesh", Dagmar Bernstorff, Oct. 1973.

the author focuses on IG's paranoia and her approval of PVNR as CM of AP.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 07 Jan 2012 04:15

devesh wrote:the mulki rule was a distraction. what were the SA elites doing till 1971 if they hated mulki rules so much? the main issue was the land reforms proposed by PVNR. right after PVNR came out with that proposal you see strong statements form SA politicians about "Telangana domination" and the "Jai Andhra". the Jai Andhra was mainly launched to put an end to any kind of reforms.

read "Eclipse of Reddy Raj: Attempted Restructuring of Congress Party Leadership in Andhra Pradesh", Dagmar Bernstorff, Oct. 1973.

the author focuses on IG's paranoia and her approval of PVNR as CM of AP.

Mulki rule was removed sometime immediately after AP formed. After 1969 telangana movement, they were reintroduced. But immediately they were challenged in court. The decision came in 1972 which was the spark for Jai Andhra.

I am not saying that that the land reforms werent opposed by SA.

PS2: I will try to read that book.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jan 2012 07:15

Virupaksha, Its from Jstor

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2643005
and
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2642788

Amazing how much massa keeps track!

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 07 Jan 2012 08:23

ramana wrote: Amazing how much massa keeps track!

That is easy to explain. Look at who is the no. 1 employer in the world, it is not Indian Railways or the Chini army. There are nuff people reading and "understanding" every esoteric topic in the world in massa universities, not that they do a good job of it. I have come across so many ill-informed idiots in my short duration in the "I met a massa doodhwaala" cabal

.

And these half-read idiots often feed into the policy spectrum, which many a time are taken due to personal predilections of the ruling, there is nothing esoteric about it. At the end of the day, if you dont publish, even if its gunk or muck, you dont get tenure and you dont find the permanent cushion for life, which in itself could be on a short leash, but I am dreaming onlee. There is a reason why Injuns stick to non-artsy academic endeavors, we are not conditioned to this type of trash in our growth periods.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 07 Jan 2012 09:52

devesh wrote:not only did the Seemandhras not understand that feeling; instead when someone like PVNR tried to solve the imbalances by proposing land reforms, the SA elites were instrumental in thwarting those plans and even made the situation so untenable that PVNR had to leave.

devesh garu,

Land reforms would be opposed by both T elites and SA elites. No one likes to give up their land. That is the reason why I disagree to classify this as an act of SA elites. I want to see which T-Reddy or T-Velama will give up their land and if someone tried to do even just do it in T region. Need to remember even as late as 1975 there is bonded labour problem in feudal T region. Do you think they will allow PVNR to succeed?

PVNR's failure has another angle. He is a brahmin. PVNR's failure as a short term CM is same as Tanguturi Prakasam's failure as a CM of Andhra state (not AP). T.Prakasam is the first CM who tried to bring retail into cooperatives and he brought more commodities into public distribution system. His plan was to have a public distribution system that is not a government run but a cooperatives run. It is the same concept we still discuss to cut down middlemen so that the end consumer will get it cheaper. He was booted out by the same elites.

Brahmin leaders never had any mass base/caste base to rally themselves. They are visionaries of a different order and in the process tried to get some equal footing to general population from a cut-throat cronyism that always existed in AP. Both T.Prakasam and PVNR tried to take on the businessmen and rich land owners. They loosened their purses to get rid of them and succeeded.

Also try to understand why Krishna/Guntur district Kammas hate T.Prakasam. Just like T complains about SA's cronies killing the T using huge resources in getting the land cheaper by force etc. The mid level and poorer sections of SA had complaints about menacing communities such as Kammas. There was a serious request to make Vijayawada as capital of Andhra when it got seperated from Madras. He deliberately took it Kurnool to make sure that land values does not increase overnight in Krishna/Guntur districts. T.Prakasam is considered as an extreme anti-kamma in folklore of that region.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 Jan 2012 10:01

Mulki rule was not removed but was held unconstitutional by High Court of AP. Then Jai Telangana started by Chenna Reddy who was at that time politically unemployed due to him getting kicked out of electoral process for 6 years due to malpractice. he did the back seat driving of the agitation then. Supreme Court held the Mulki rules constitutional and then Jai Telangana agitation started by Reddy and other gangs doing back seat driving. Apart from Land reforms the PV efforts on Panchayathi Raj also contributed to the fear of the ruling gangs of AP. Basically sentiment is being used for political leaders for power and loot.

CBN is now going every where in Telangana areas on farmars issues. Said to be getting lot of response. It is in the interest of Congress also that the traditional TDP Congress fight is restored in Telangana areas so that come 2014 the sentiment will not hurt it much. With better conditions for party in Telangana TDP leaders will be more confident of their chances in 2014. Only TRS may be at the receiving end of TDP revival in Telnagana as it wants to wipe out TDP from there. I wonder KCR over played his understanding with Congress by instigating divisions in congress etc or Sonia gang is no longer need or feel confident about him. He is keeping quite now with a statement that agitations will be revived after Jan 15.

With failure of Sakalajanula Samme this agitation after Jan 15 may be a ending point of TRS political up swing.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jan 2012 10:15

Muppalla garu,

the stuff about Prakasam is definitely new to me. but informative nonetheless and more importantly, stuff like that should be explored to figure out how the elites manipulate commons into "movements" which are actually aimed at kicking out some politician or power faction which might not be in their interests. I have done some looking into the number of MLA's who supported PVNR, and there are some sources which put the rough figure of 70 MLA's, all or most from T, who supported PV's reforms. another source, this one a family member who was active in politics up to early 80's when he was entering his 30's, puts the figure at 55-60 MLA's.

So, you are right, only about half or a little more than half of the T-MLA's supported PV. and this was the extant of PV's support across AP. from other regions, he couldn't get anybody to really rally for his proposals.

ramana garu, virupaksha garu,

yes, the article is from JSTOR. when I first found it, I was astonished that some American academician had spent time on something as obscure as Andhra Pradesh politics in the early 70's. I mean seriously, that was a totally obscure focus point.

member_22286 · Post by **member_22286** » 07 Jan 2012 10:25

Muppalla wrote:
devesh wrote:not only did the Seemandhras not understand that feeling; instead when someone like PVNR tried to solve the imbalances by proposing land reforms, the SA elites were instrumental in thwarting those plans and even made the situation so untenable that PVNR had to leave.
devesh garu,

Land reforms would be opposed by both T elites and SA elites. No one likes to give up their land. That is the reason why I disagree to classify this as an act of SA elites. I want to see which T-Reddy or T-Velama will give up their land and if someone tried to do even just do it in T region. Need to remember even as late as 1975 there is bonded labour problem in feudal T region. Do you think they will allow PVNR to succeed?

PVNR's failure has another angle. He is a brahmin. PVNR's failure as a short term CM is same as Tanguturi Prakasam's failure as a CM of Andhra state (not AP). T.Prakasam is the first CM who tried to bring retail into cooperatives and he brought more commodities into public distribution system. His plan was to have a public distribution system that is not a government run but a cooperatives run. It is the same concept we still discuss to cut down middlemen so that the end consumer will get it cheaper. He was booted out by the same elites.

Brahmin leaders never had any mass base/caste base to rally themselves. They are visionaries of a different order and in the process tried to get some equal footing to general population from a cut-throat cronyism that always existed in AP. Both T.Prakasam and PVNR tried to take on the businessmen and rich land owners. They loosened their purses to get rid of them and succeeded.

Also try to understand why Krishna/Guntur district Kammas hate T.Prakasam. Just like T complains about SA's cronies killing the T using huge resources in getting the land cheaper by force etc. The mid level and poorer sections of SA had complaints about menacing communities such as Kammas. There was a serious request to make Vijayawada as capital of Andhra when it got seperated from Madras. He deliberately took it Kurnool to make sure that land values does not increase overnight in Krishna/Guntur districts. T.Prakasam is considered as an extreme anti-kamma in folklore of that region.

Sir the Kammas aversion to PVNR or Prakasam is due to the Periyar and Tripuraneni Ramaswamy Chowdarys Atheist movement,Dravidian ideology and Justice party and partly due to the Brahmins own hubris as a class.PVNR is neither no saint as much as he strived to implement land reforms he did little in way of removing the Patel-Karanam-Patwari system (he was a karnam himself).Ultimately it was NTR who abolished the whole system and gave the BC's in Telangana a platform in politics.The Kamma's are anything but what you claim.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 07 Jan 2012 10:49

Ashok Gottipati wrote:Sir the Kammas aversion to PVNR or Prakasam is due to the Periyar and Tripuraneni Ramaswamy Chowdarys Atheist movement,Dravidian ideology and Justice party and partly due to the Brahmins own hubris as a class.PVNR is neither no saint as much as he strived to implement land reforms he did little in way of removing the Patel-Karanam-Patwari system (he was a karnam himself).

My point was that wealthy people find always ways to stop someone trying to distribute it taking away from them. For whatever the reasons, wealth manufacturing in India(at least in AP) is caste driven. Netowrking, buddy-buddy systems are inside castes.

I disagree about Kammas being some atheist or some anti-God people. Several huge temples were constructed by them and there are several God fearing people too. But yes they also have fringe elements (like in anyone else) who were part of the Suthashramam created by Tripuraneni Ramaswamy Chowdary et al. There are some famous Kammas who are part of Justice party in the undivided Madras state too. They also have some who converted to Christianinty as early as 30s and 40s. By the way the atheist movement was started by a brahmin called as "Gora" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goparaju_Ramachandra_Rao

Ultimately it was NTR who abolished the whole system and gave the BC's in Telangana a platform in politics.The Kamma's are anything but what you claim.

This is the real game changer of AP that has demolished the KHAM structure of INC. Using the Patel-Patwari system, the congress party maintained a lot of unaccounted lands to either Reddys or SCs in rural areas. NTR abolished the system that is probably coming from the times of Vijayanaga Empire (or Cholas?) and continued through British and later until 1985. Once it is abolished the SCs are replaced with BCs for the same lands' lease. This happened in all regions. In fact this is the fundamental reason for TDP still having cadre intact in T region. If the sentiment in T goes down TDP rise will be because of T-BCs.

member_22286 · Post by **member_22286** » 07 Jan 2012 11:37

Muppalla wrote:
Ashok Gottipati wrote:Sir the Kammas aversion to PVNR or Prakasam is due to the Periyar and Tripuraneni Ramaswamy Chowdarys Atheist movement,Dravidian ideology and Justice party and partly due to the Brahmins own hubris as a class.PVNR is neither no saint as much as he strived to implement land reforms he did little in way of removing the Patel-Karanam-Patwari system (he was a karnam himself).
My point was that wealthy people find always ways to stop someone trying to distribute it taking away from them. For whatever the reasons, wealth manufacturing in India(at least in AP) is caste driven. Netowrking, buddy-buddy systems are inside castes.

I disagree about Kammas being some atheist or some anti-God people. Several huge temples were constructed by them and there are several God fearing people too. But yes they also have fringe elements (like in anyone else) who were part of the Suthashramam created by Tripuraneni Ramaswamy Chowdary et al. There are some famous Kammas who are part of Justice party in the undivided Madras state too. They also have some who converted to Christianinty as early as 30s and 40s. By the way the atheist movement was started by a brahmin called as "Gora" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goparaju_Ramachandra_Rao

Ultimately it was NTR who abolished the whole system and gave the BC's in Telangana a platform in politics.The Kamma's are anything but what you claim.
This is the real game changer of AP that has demolished the KHAM structure of INC. Using the Patel-Patwari system, the congress party maintained a lot of unaccounted lands to either Reddys or SCs in rural areas. NTR abolished the system that is probably coming from the times of Vijayanaga Empire (or Cholas?) and continued through British and later until 1985. Once it is abolished the SCs are replaced with BCs for the same lands' lease. This happened in all regions. In fact this is the fundamental reason for TDP still having cadre intact in T region. If the sentiment in T goes down TDP rise will be because of T-BCs.

Kammas were never exactly wealthy to begin with they had some land but no liquid cash they were nowhere near the clout of the Reddies except some Kamma Zamindaari families.Most Kamma's are descendants of the liutenants of Vijaynagara and Kakatiya kings.Only when kammas embraced merchantilism in the 1800's(My family used to export tobacco grown in lankalu to Burma and bring back teak and rubies) did liquid money start flowing and Sir Aurthur Cotton's anaicuts in the Krishna-Godavari delta's.The guntur Kamma boom started with tobacco trading .Simultaneosly the Kammavar naidu's of Madras Presidency were also enjoying the benefits of British development boom(the kammavar naidu's have aristrocatic blood in them).This brought an increase in wealth and social status.This simultaneously also brought friction with the numero-caste in the Madras Presidency at that time in terms of respect,wealth and Social status the Brahmins of the Madras Presidency.The clash between the communtites became quite high and the Brahmins used to show the ancient texts as a divinely ordained form of superiority this led to the formation of the Justice party a veihicle to channel their grouses against the Brahmins .At this time they found an individual among their own community E.V Ramaswamy Naicker\Naidu who was used to spearhead the Dravidian movement in Madras Presidency.In the mean time the British used this schism in the Madras Presidency to their own advantage and favoured the Justice party to their own advatnage both during 1909(morley-minto) and 1919(montagu-chlemsford) reforms.The First community which used reservations in India historically are the Kammas and Reddies in the 1920's-30's itself.This did not end there it also got embroiiled in the Madras presidency politics where the congress which mainly consisted of (ayyers and andhra brahmins mostly lawyers with no roots at the ground level).Where as the justice party had landed gentry who could mobilise the masses..The congress got further weakened in 1924 when Periyar and his followers left it after Non-cooperation movement.So in modern history they had/have a lot of aversion for Brahmins esp Rajagopala Chary and Congress party

This did not end here this continued even during the quit India movement and after Independence.When Potti Sri Ramulu did his fast most Kammas\Reddies supported it because once the coastal ap was removed from Madras Presidency it was game over for TN Congress and Rajagopala chary and in AP congress the reddies can take the helm with this in mind they spear headed the Separate Andhra movement and once TN and Coastal AP were created Congress and Ayyers as a politcally powerful class got wiped out by D.M.K in TN and Reddies started dominating the AP congress politics

There is another reson for Kamma aversion to Congress and Brahmins during the Telangana struggle the money for the communists in Telangana was sourced from Coastal AP by coastal communists who were mostly Kammas and Reddies.Which was tacitly approved by Congress after operation POLO.The Rajagoplachary government misleaded Patel to take action on the communists in Coastal AP using the Malabar Police.My grandfather's elder brother hid himself in Tobacco barrels to escape the police.

Sir so the feud btw the parties here is very,very old atleast a 120-100 year old one

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 Jan 2012 20:58

For some reason Kamma community does not enjoy good relations with most of the other communities. Reddys, Balija/Kapu community, Bramins ( Kammas have great amount of hate towards them) and SC's. They said to have business relations with Vysya community. One of the things Kammas accused of is serious caste feeling unparallal with any other community. These allegations increased with NTR coming to power. Either it is orchestrated compaign by Congress and reddy interest or over enthusiasum of the newly enpowered Kamma leaders i do not know. But at the same time it is the NTR who really heralded admin reforms in rural areas, local goverments and it is TDP which has brought lot of BC leaders into power.

member_22286 · Post by **member_22286** » 07 Jan 2012 21:56

Narayana Rao wrote:For some reason Kamma community does not enjoy good relations with most of the other communities. Reddys, Balija/Kapu community, Bramins ( Kammas have great amount of hate towards them) and SC's. They said to have business relations with Vysya community. One of the things Kammas accused of is serious caste feeling unparallal with any other community. These allegations increased with NTR coming to power. Either it is orchestrated compaign by Congress and reddy interest or over enthusiasum of the newly enpowered Kamma leaders i do not know. But at the same time it is the NTR who really heralded admin reforms in rural areas, local goverments and it is TDP which has brought lot of BC leaders into power.

Sir Kammas actually enjoy great relationships with other communities except Brahmins(for whom they have extreme disdain historically partly brahmins fault acc to our elders hurting ego's is a very bad idea).In Telangana they enjoy particularly good relations with gowda's,yadavs and Telangana Reddies (employer-employee)Most yadavs and gowdas benefitted most using Kamma during the real estate boom.Prior to this Telangana ruckus they also had co-rdial relations with Velama's .NTR came to power because he had charisma and the Kamma's organizational capabilities .

The commutiny with whom relations badly soured after the rise of NTR is with Rayalseema Reddies and this caused a Reddy-Kamma rivalry in the political scene of AP.Post Y.S.R demise and KCR's Telangana spectre the rivalry turned to co-operation.Kiran Kumar Reddy and CBN have great chemistry this can be seen during acceptance of Nagam's resignation ,Keeping Botsa Satyanarayan in dock
using liquor syndicate raids or even during the sakula jannula samme .Most importantly during the no-confidence motion in Assembly
CBN actually is increasing KKR grip on Congress.Sir,KKR and Balakriishna were classmates.

Right now their target is KCR and they are preparing for him a political coffin using social media and politics .See the nagarjuna film Rajanna in that film in that light more films to follow in that genre about uprising against feudals in Telangana

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jan 2012 22:06

Ashok garu,

very interesting note about Rajanna. the movie also has fight against Razakars and British. if this has tacit approval by both KKR and CBN, then it means that there is an elite faction in AP which is clearly against pandering to Minority interests and recognizes the atrocities committed by Islamics when they were in power.

is KKR sympathetic to such themes and cultural history like the struggle against the Razakars? perhaps AP INC has some factions which do not subscribe to Rajmata's agenda?!

member_22286 · Post by **member_22286** » 07 Jan 2012 22:15

devesh wrote:Ashok garu,

very interesting note about Rajanna. the movie also has fight against Razakars and British. if this has tacit approval by both KKR and CBN, then it means that there is an elite faction in AP which is clearly against pandering to Minority interests and recognizes the atrocities committed by Islamics when they were in power.

is KKR sympathetic to such themes and cultural history like the struggle against the Razakars? perhaps AP INC has some factions which do not subscribe to Rajmata's agenda?!

Sir ,Under Razakars most of the sub-ordiantes were velama's and there are great folklore about people rebelling against Telangana feudals both muslims and feudal movies will gradually come in this theme.

Devesh garu the Kammas and Reddies were part and parcel of the people who destroyed Nizam and played a major part in the Telangana Rebellion.Do you know that P.Sundarayya and some Kamma communists went as a delegation to Stalin to request Hyderabad liberation he declined to do it because Hyderabad state did not have sea board to launch operations.Most do not say this.Regarding operation Polo it is the bloodiest thing during partition and MIM has those horrifying memories of those events
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2826/st ... 610900.htm

Devesh garu see the above link for what Iam saying

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 07 Jan 2012 23:06

Ashok garu,

I don't doubt that several different groups took part in the fight against the Islamics. but I have a hard time believing that the IA committed mass rape of women. perhaps, that is an issue where Basava is showing his prejudices...either way, the Communist movement ultimately failed. and failed because of two reasons. while their idealism cannot be questioned, they prejudices and biases against the "Hindu" are to be questioned.

also, another issue that he brings up is the the IA forcefully reallocated land to the land owning elites after it was distributed to peasants. this has to be investigated further? to what extent did the Communists distribute land to peasants? and did the IA play a part in reversing that process? these are difficult questions, but answers need to be found.