Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

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Carl_T
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Carl_T » 24 Apr 2010 21:42

The US will not be hurt in the slightest if the white population drops below 50, as long as the hispanic population is english speaking and well educated. Ensuring the second part of the statement has to be a priority for the US.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Nair » 24 Apr 2010 21:51

prad wrote:
Well said...if this is the state of alarm about the nation here..think about the panic America should be in. The white population will go below 50% in a matter of years with Hispanics on their way to become the new majority.



nations adapt to different situations. in India, the population proportion of Hindus is too great for Muslims to mount a serious challenge in the heartland of India. but borderlands like JK, Assam and broader NE, are other situations entirely. combined with PRC's special interest in NE India, this is a region that India needs to be watchful of and alert over. it cannot afford complacency vis-a-vis the socioeconomic challenges posed by a majority Muslim population which is to some extent isolated from mainland India. this isolation makes it possible for them to maintain their own unique culture and grow isolated from the broad fundamental forces that are guiding India towards modernity. the rising Islamism in BD and these immigrants in NE India should be viewed in this context. it might actually be beneficial for India to completely cordon off BD, and deporting as much of the illegal population as it can, and spread the remaining illegal population to other parts. this will bring them into contact with the new economic dynamism of India and not allow them the isolation of the North-East. this will undoubtedly increase Muslim concentration in the heartland but the proportion of Hindus compensates for this increase.

as for US, the problem isn't as grave, but there is a problem. it is too early to clearly see what future path the diverse population of US will take. but there are policy tools like encouraging more inter-racial marriages which can effectively assuage these tensions. there will be a minority white population which will view this as criminal, but there might be no other options. inter-racial marriage will push race down the list of identities. it is a good instrument to use in racially diverse countries.



The "problem" the US faces is even more grave..you should go to certain areas in the West..you will not believe you are in the US.

India should not be afraid...we survived 800 years of Muslim rule and still stayed true to our "pagan" "beliefs...which other country in the world survived that. Christianity and Islam wiped out every trace of the old religions in every single place they ruled(Greece,Rome,Iran etc)..Indians and Hinduism is far stronger than people give us credit for.

J&K is a separate issue..but I don't believe the situation in the NE is beyond salvageable...the Chinese don't want Islam biting as their borders any more than we do. They will be very careful what they encourage there. Have some faith in the indigenous people...after all the Assamese kept the mighty Mughal empire out.

Of course I agree with the complete fencing off of BD...their country is going to go under water. India needs to be prepared.
Last edited by Nair on 24 Apr 2010 21:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Nair » 24 Apr 2010 21:55

Carl_T wrote:The US will not be hurt in the slightest if the white population drops below 50, as long as the hispanic population is english speaking and well educated. Ensuring the second part of the statement has to be a priority for the US.



Are the Hispanic population English speaking?....as I said there are places in the West today which cannot be recognized as the US. The whole Anglo-Saxon base of the country is under threat today.

Edit: There was a famous soccer match in California between America and Mexico..the American players had urine thrown at them in cups by the "fans"...and throughly booed throughout the game. It is a freaking demographic invasion.
Last edited by Nair on 24 Apr 2010 22:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Carl_T » 24 Apr 2010 21:58

Many of them are english speaking, some are not. If the US ensures they are English speaking and educated, it will face absolutely no threat.

If you do think that the hispanic population is some sort of threat, do elaborate how precisely.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Nair » 24 Apr 2010 22:05

Carl_T wrote:Many of them are english speaking, some are not. If the US ensures they are English speaking and educated, it will face absolutely no threat.

If you do think that the hispanic population is some sort of threat, do elaborate how precisely.



Threat as in seceding the West back into Mexico...but this is OT...anyway if India makes sure radical Islam has no place in India,India should face no threat regardless of the no of Muslims.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 24 Apr 2010 22:08

prad wrote:
nations adapt to different situations. in India, the population proportion of Hindus is too great for Muslims to mount a serious challenge in the heartland of India. but borderlands like JK, Assam and broader NE, are other situations entirely. combined with PRC's special interest in NE India,

It does not happen in any other countries like this where with a huge population the borderlands can be infiltrated. The govt and ruling elite are the problem for such situation. Total change in the system can change the social makeup of the borderland and also all the neighboring region around the border.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Nair » 24 Apr 2010 22:11

Acharya wrote:
prad wrote:
nations adapt to different situations. in India, the population proportion of Hindus is too great for Muslims to mount a serious challenge in the heartland of India. but borderlands like JK, Assam and broader NE, are other situations entirely. combined with PRC's special interest in NE India,

It does not happen in any other countries like this where with a huge population the borderlands can be infiltrated. The govt and ruling elite are the problem for such situation. Total change in the system can change the social makeup of the borderland and also all the neighboring region around the border.



America?

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 24 Apr 2010 22:18

Nair wrote:
nations adapt to different situations. in India, the population proportion of Hindus is too great for Muslims to mount a serious challenge in the heartland of India. but borderlands like JK, Assam and broader NE, are other situations entirely. combined with PRC's special interest in NE India,
It does not happen in any other countries like this where with a huge population the borderlands can be infiltrated. The govt and ruling elite are the problem for such situation. Total change in the system can change the social makeup of the borderland and also all the neighboring region around the border.

America?

America is a land of immigrants with only 200 years of history while India is a land of few thousand year history with human settlement in those area going back ages.
I have been to Mexico from the US border and you can see the old settlement of Baja Mexico but sparsely populated. Tuscon AZ and the border area are totally empty with very low population density. With a GDP of $14T in US next to a poor country of $1T GDP Mexico there is going to lot of pressure. US GDP needs large population and high working population to take care of the large deficit. This is attracting the Mexicans into the US.
Last edited by svinayak on 24 Apr 2010 22:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby chaanakya » 24 Apr 2010 22:32

Acharya wrote:
Nair wrote:
nations adapt to different situations. in India, the population proportion of Hindus is too great for Muslims to mount a serious challenge in the heartland of India. but borderlands like JK, Assam and broader NE, are other situations entirely. combined with PRC's special interest in NE India,
It does not happen in any other countries like this where with a huge population the borderlands can be infiltrated. The govt and ruling elite are the problem for such situation. Total change in the system can change the social makeup of the borderland and also all the neighboring region around the border.

America?

America is a land of immigrants with only 200 years of history while India is a land of few thousand year history with human settlement in those area going back ages.
I have been to Mexico from the US border and you can see the old settlement of Baja Mexico but sparsely populated. Tuscon AZ and the border area are totally empty with very low population density. With a GDP of $14T in US next a poor country of $1T GDP Mexico there is going to lot of pressure.

You have echoed my thoughts exactly.Our History doesn't start with 1947.
Cities in India such as Varanasi, Madurai Patna are thousands of years old and continues more or less in the same place they were founded upon.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 24 Apr 2010 23:16

nair wrote
India should not be afraid...we survived 800 years of Muslim rule and still stayed true to our "pagan" "beliefs...which other country in the world survived that. Christianity and Islam wiped out every trace of the old religions in every single place they ruled(Greece,Rome,Iran etc)..Indians and Hinduism is far stronger than people give us credit for.


There is a danger is this simplification. When we say "pagana/Hindu" Indians survived 800 [should be 1140 years, to be more accurate?] years of Muslim rule, we have to state at the same time, the mechanism by which Indians did so. That mechanism was not passive but an active one of war and battle or guerrilla warfare to protect regiosn were fleeing to more remote areas better defensible militarily and having less of attraction for Islamics keen on getting irrigated fertile lands. Typically just saying we "survived" creates the impression that current policies towards Islamism or continuation of passive approaches towards exclusive religions and their claims will suffice for "survival".

Total size of a group seeking hegemony over a society is a poor indicator of its ability to actually obtain such hegemeony. If population or group size was a sufficient indicator - then both Islamics as well as the British would not have been able to impose their hegemeony on India.

What matters is (1) the internal cohesiveness of ideology and group affiliation, esepecially where hegemony on others is concerned (2) ability to modify ethical or moral justifications in adopting ruthless methods of subjugating others [no ethical or ideological constraints where seeking erasure of other cultures or groups are concerned] (3) the ability to manipulate and utilize any and all weaknesses - ethical, moral, ideological, state - such as say "universal tolerance" [anything goes if it comes from certain groups] in the grop that is sought to be erased or seen as an obstacle to hegemony (4) the ability to pretend "weakness", such as "peaceful", no hegemonistic ambitions etc, just seeking economic develeopment [trade benefits only like the British, or reservations based on religion now] and bide for the time when the inherent agenda of the group - that is genocidic, ethnic cleansing, to clear space and gather resources from the pre-existing society to create a hegemonistic rashtra of their own.

By all indicators the first steps of sowing the seeds towards religion based separate rashtras carved from within India have already been taken.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby D Roy » 24 Apr 2010 23:18

Karma gentlemen Karma.

We did not invade anybody else's country to snatch their land. if anything we did a just war in 1971 and vacated that land pretty quickly after liberating it.

yes we screwed up in Sri Lanka but nevertheless our civilizational karma remains hugely positive. Which is why when some jingoes go a little overboard and say "kinetic kill baby" and then talk of realpolitik , I manage a smile.


Contrast this to the Goras- they killed of the "natives" in Yamrika, brought in slaves from the west coast of africa and pushed the hispanics out of california , new mexico , texas et al.

Various non WASP constituents of Yamrika are merely reclaiming what belonged to them anyway.

It doesn't require rocket science to predict which way Yamrika will head,

Only belief in the law of karma.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 24 Apr 2010 23:35

Some time ago I proposed exploring three hypothetical scenarios : two of which were

(1) A drug war spiralling out of control in Mexico, and collapse of the state. Or made out to be so by USA. What is the consequence on Indian subcontinent if the USA finds its national focus engaged in dealing with its border problem with domestic populatr political pressure mounting to find immediate solutiona nd withdrawal from AFG? With inevitable handing over of power to Paki Occupation Government of Western India. [edited]

(2) One or both the Karzai's assassinated.
Last edited by brihaspati on 25 Apr 2010 01:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 25 Apr 2010 01:17

brihaspati wrote:Some time ago I proposed exploring three hypothetical scenarios : two of which were

(1) A drug war spiralling out of control in Mexico, and collapse of the state. Or made out to be so by USA. What is the consequence on Indian subcontinent if the USA finds its national focus engaged in dealing with its border problem with domestic populatr political pressure mounting to find immediate solutiona nd withdrawal from AFG. With inevitable handing over of power to Paki Occupation Government of India.

(2) One or both the Karzai's assassinated.

Both the scenario have a high chance of happening.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 25 Apr 2010 01:56

Gerard has given the news item on joint Indo-Brit air exercises on the Indo-UK thread. Why are we allowing joint RAF-IAF exercises over a land-coastal base [in Kolaikonda]? Is it just to test out Typhhons? Does it not give the Brits an opportunity to have a close survey of the land characteristics in the Maoist infested territiories? The greatest sympathies about Maoists, outside of China, comes from UK based organizations. This does not look very good.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 25 Apr 2010 02:59

http://www.vijayvaani.com/FrmPublicDisplayArticle.aspx?id=1141
More Drugs+terror+communism+jihad
Ramtanu Maitra
19 Mar 2010


How Deep rooted is it?

In January 2002, after terrorists attacked the American consulate in Kolkata, bits and pieces of reports emerged showing that the terrorists involved belonged to the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the international terrorist outfit with a base in Pakistan, Britain and Central Asia. At the time, Sudhir Sinha, Inspector General of Police for West Bengal, told a reporter that an interrogation in a kidnapping case gave him an insight into the network set up by LeT in Kolkata. He was focusing on a gang led by one Asif Razakhan and Aftab Ahmad Ansari.

IGP Sinha said: “The impression we gathered from these criminals was that the Kolkata police are considered soft by Pakistani criminals. Terrorists consider the Mumbai police tough; they feel that Delhi has too many mobile vans keeping vigil on the roads; and Gujarat is too far away. They believe that for political reasons, the Kolkata police do not enter the Muslim areas of the city and that is helpful [to terrorists]. Asif told us that most of the criminal members in Ansari’s gang belonged to Kolkata.”



Sinha also said that Kolkata police avoid picking up Muslim criminals, thanks to political pressure. Investigation of the kidnapping incident revealed that Ansari had flown to Dubai, the base from which the ISI-protected Dawood Ibrahim, who also has a base in Karachi, carries out criminal activities inside India. Sinha noted that at the time Ansari had been carrying out his criminal activities from Karachi and was married to a Pakistani woman who lived in Pakistan’s garrison-city Rawalpindi. Ansari was an active member of the HuJI.



Kolkata has been identified earlier as a target and base of the HuJI. In 2007, the UP Police claimed that with the help of the local police they arrested three HuJI activists from West Bengal, recovered explosives they had hidden, and then booked them under the Explosives Act and the Unlawful Activities Act.



Last month, Abdul Khwaja, who is believed to have become a key operative of HuJI in recent days, was apprehended in Hyderabad in connection with a fake currency racket busted in Kolkata a few months ago. Police said Khwaja was arrested in Hyderabad in January through a joint raid by the Kolkata Special Task Force (STF) and Hyderabad Police. Officers said Khwaja was also associated with the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), and was reportedly trained in Pakistan by LeT.



In June 2006, Kolkata-based Bengali news magazine Desh put together a comprehensive picture of the Kolkata-based terrorist networks’ linkages with Dawood Ibrahim, ISI and the Bangladesh Nationalist Party (BNP), led by Begum Khaleda Zia. While Dawood is merely an underground criminal, handling drugs and guns and being controlled by foreign intelligence agencies operating out of Dubai and elsewhere, ISI and the BNP were working on a grand design to wipe out any Bangladeshi leader who would develop friendly relations with India. For this reason, a number of assassinations have been plotted and attempted over the years against present Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina Wazed. Sheikh Hasina opposes extremist Islamic rule in Bangladesh and wants her country to become integrated with neighbours, such as India, Nepal, Myanmar and Bhutan. None of these regional nations have any love lost for Islamic jihadis.



The Desh report reveals how vulnerable West Bengal has become under the CPI (M) Raj to international terrorists bent upon hurting India. The report points to a 1999 plot to assassinate Sheikh Hasina that was hatched in Kolkata. Indian intelligence, working in league with their Bangladeshi counterparts foiled the plan. These sleuths had followed the track and froze the bank transfer of cash, which, had it gone through, would have triggered LTTE suicide bombers into action to kill Sheikh Hasina.



Desh said there was a meeting on June 6, 1999, at St. James Court Hotel in London, where the group hatched the final plan. A decision was taken to pay LTTE, who had an easy access into India, $10 million for their suicide bombers. The quid-pro-quo for LTTE was that if Khaleda Zia came to power following the assassination, or even later, the LTTE would get use of some of the islands off Bangladesh coast for transit points for the drug-and-guns haul from Southeast Asia into Jaffna, in northern Sri Lanka.

They had used two islands (Qutubdia and Sonadia) as their drug-and-gun warehouses and safe houses earlier. LTTE’s objective was to store their arms on these two islands for planned assaults in Sri Lanka, as well as to transfer them to other terror groups in India. This meeting was attended, among others, by a well-known London-based radio broadcaster of Bangladeshi origin who had taken part in the 1975 coup that killed Sheikh Mujib and most of his family; an Army officer; a former Pakistani Army officer and a front man for the ISI, Col. R.M. Ahsan, who owns Ahsan TradEx, a Karachi-based export-import firm; Lt. Col. Khondakar Abdur Rashid; and Lt. Col. S.H.M.B. Noor Chowdhury, Desh reported.



Drug inflow into Kolkata

Although New Delhi makes some effort to regulate, monitor, and curb its licit opium production and distribution process, a lot more needs to be done. At the same time, huge amounts of illicit opium and heroin flow into India from Pakistan through Rajasthan and Punjab. Some opium/heroin enters India through Jammu & Kashmir as well. Most of these high-value narcotics transit through India and travel westward, bringing oodles of cash to the underground that works hand-in-glove with the terrorists. Some of these terrorist groups, like LeT, HuJI, LTTE, among others, are closely tied to the ISI and British intelligence, in particular.



In addition to some illicit opium poppy production in certain parts of West Bengal and Uttaranchal along the India-China Border, lots of heroin and opium are coming into India through the Bangladesh, Nepal and India-China borders. A vast majority of these narco-products are grown in Myanmar, but the products are handled subsequently by underground criminal networks, which include the Islamic jihadis, such as the HuJi, LeT, the London-based Hizbut Tahrir Bangladesh, the Maoists of Nepal-Bihar-West Bengal-Andhra Pradesh-Madhya Pradesh, and other terrorist groups operating inside Bangladesh and in northeast India.



Apart from the vastness of the drug and terrorist network established inside West Bengal and the financial inter-linkages that have developed between the CPI (M) and the underground, West Bengal’s border security is simply inadequate. According to one security analyst, the Sunderbans, a maze of mangrove forests, river channels and river islands, remains highly vulnerable to terrorist infiltration. In fact, from the Bangladeshi side of the Sunderbans, a speed boat at 40 knots can reach the heart of Kolkata within two and a half hours.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Shivlal Vedhavani » 25 Apr 2010 03:09

brihaspathi ji: Amazing post.So what Kolkatta does today India does tomorrow. but you still see a strategic future for LeT terror in India? Everything that is to be known about LeT seems to be known to Indian administrators.Its just matter of time that they will act and put an end to all terror. I hope sincerely.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 25 Apr 2010 08:26

x-post from Indian Interests thread:

Muppalla wrote:I don't know but I have a feeling that MMS is being put on exit mode. The phone tapping expose in Outlook may be a plant by some Gandhi family friends to get the handle to exit him. The media is firmly in the clutches of Gandhi family and something against government especially in the Outlook magzine is unbeleivable. pressure cooker has overcooked in UPA-2. Even with 208 seats they are strugling more that UPA-1. Just my thoughts.


That is an interesting thought.

Usually, imperialists carry out their subversion in very gradual stages. Let us look at what has happened so far, and extrapolate how this process might continue in India. It is speculative, but it is based on historical experience.

The foundation was laid by getting the BJP govt to use EVMs with foreign-installed binaries, and opening the Indian media to foreign investment.

Then, we had the suspect election of 2004 (book by GVLNR downloadable for free from http://www.indianevm.com/book_democracy ... k_2010.pdf). After there was a backlash to the idea of Sonia becoming PM, IMF nominee Manmohan Singh was put into power, with the remote control in the hands of Sonia.

Now, Sonia remains an enigma. But we have to take note of the credible reports of her history of being on payroll of foreign agencies, and also the reports about people close to her supporting the Maoists. (Very recently a mob of Congressmen freed a Maoist king-pin from police custody in Silvassa - see Red Menace thread.) It is also to be noted how Sonia kept her loyalist Shivraj Patil in charge of the Home Ministry for as long as possible, until it became politically impossible.

The present period is being used for ideological conditioning of the masses, and also for quietly putting into positions of power thoroughly corrupt people like Pratibha Patil and thoroughly amoral people like Navin Chawla.

The Church organizations, many of which are controlled by western plutocrats, are also quietly doing their work. Once sufficient numbers of souls have been harvested, riots will be engineered, which will in turn be used to demonize Indic people through the controlled media. The goal will be to turn the converts into useful idiots, working against their own country,

Now MMS, despite his ideological affinity for colonial subservience, is still Indian at heart. MMS is probably still trying very hard to delude himself that the colonial powers want to be benevolent to the natives. Therefore he may not fully cooperate when the time comes to crack the whip. So he cannot be relied on beyond a point.

The next stage of the subversion process would be to somehow thwart Chidambaram and make Rahul the PM. Now Rahul has grown up in the company of European relatives, and has been educated abroad - so he would see the world in way that is different from Indic peoples. Election victory of Rahul would be guaranteed by EVMs, while the controlled media would go overboard in hailing the new king. Under the PM-ship of Rahul the subversion process would be carried further.

Most people can be kept in line very easily. The business community will easily succumb once the whip is cracked - just the threat of a tax raid would be enough. Politicians will quake if they are threatened with exposure of their foreign bank accounts.

A very critical position that will be subverted is the governor-ship of the RBI. Generally western plutocrats prefer to gain control over economies by using monetary policies to cause repeated expansion-contraction cycles. The US has been through many such cycles since the monetary policy was handed over to the privately-owned Federal Reserve Corporation. The principle of taking over an economy through such cycles is simple - it is analogous to how a trader could become rich by knowing which way the price of oil was going to turn tomorrow.

Gradually, industrialization will be crippled on the pretext of global warming. The Maoists will also be used against the economy. The population will be slowly poisoned through genetically modified food. The terminator-seed technology will also be used to prevent any independence amongst the farmers. Learning disabilities and autism rates will be made to sky-rocket by poisoning babies through vaccines. There are many other such tools which will be put into use.

As was mentioned at the beginning, this is speculative, but it is based on historical experience of how neo-colonization has been achieved in other countries.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 25 Apr 2010 16:29

Shivlal Vedhavani wrote
brihaspathi ji: Amazing post.So what Kolkatta does today India does tomorrow. but you still see a strategic future for LeT terror in India? Everything that is to be known about LeT seems to be known to Indian administrators.Its just matter of time that they will act and put an end to all terror. I hope sincerely.


I do not see potential for just any organizational outfit - but outfits that regenerate or change form within the same ideological mobilizations. Whatever name they take or are given. The basic threats remain three, and all three are stooges or fronts of external imperialist interests - the Jihadis, EJ's and Communists. All three jhave the same basic target of overthrowing the existing rashtra as a core part of their ideology - two of these explicitly mention that target. However all three claim that it is the basis of this rashtra, its cultural ethos and framework, its ideology which they want to destroy and replace with their own - with Islam, Christianity and Communism.

I see all the indicators for a tactical division of India into territories where each seeks to dominate. Maybe they are also attracting people with only grievances against the existing system, but who are not aware that these "rashtra-overthrowing", "hindu-erasing" goals are actually being used by foreign imperialist powers as the first step towards eventual neo-colonization [not direct presence but ruling by proxy].

Over a long period Indian politics most likely has had a lot of investments in goodwill, connections, resources from the actual imperial masters behind these fronts. They could not have survived in their radical activities inside India for more than a generation unless they have managed to infiltrate and have a presence at the core of rashtryia power with sympathizers and sharers of their vision.

Do not believe in what the rashtryia spokespersons "reveal" about how they are watching and will intervene at the right time. They will only intervene in liquidating those whom they see as threat to their personal political power - this does not necessarily mean outfits like LeT.

The pattern with which Indian rashtryia backlash has worked is not against the radical or extremist organizations, but liquidating their ideologues or more idealist leadership or cadre. What remains is the criminal concentrate without much of ideology - which can then be used by the politicians and the secret services to act as hidden tools in the political power struggles. This is the reason, Maoism, or Khalistanism, NE mainly Christian insurgencies, or Jihadi terror by LeT, HUJI, etc. have never really died out. And they wiil not, unless a new force of Indians firmly commited to their culture, starts the long and painful task of detaching themselves from any sympathy or identification with these ideologies.

This is where I differ from many well-intentioned gurus here. Many have suggested that ideological commitments and lack of total "flexibility" means "defeat" or getting "screwed" in the game of power. I humbly suggest in return, that it appears so only because we look at it from the personal power viewpoint and not in terms of the whole society, country, nation and future generations. When you consider long term outcomes, I see no alternative to cultural nationalism and a firm rejection of all and everything that does not belong to this cultural nationalism. These ideologies have to be fought against and removed completely from India and Indian society. The struggle will be ruthless in only as much as these ideologies want it to be. But do not rely on the existing rashtra to do this for you! It is a hard political struggle to put in new movements and regimes.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Shivlal Vedhavani » 25 Apr 2010 18:21

I feel its time to induct Rahul as PM, otherwise the S Gandhi family brand will be overtaken by events and gradually may become irrelavant. The recent standing up of some sections of people, who otherwise were considered strong hold. Timing was everything and Mrs IG was expert in that sense

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby chandrasekhar.m » 25 Apr 2010 18:54

Pranav wrote:x-post from Indian Interests thread:
Gradually, industrialization will be crippled on the pretext of global warming. The Maoists will also be used against the economy. The population will be slowly poisoned through genetically modified food. The terminator-seed technology will also be used to prevent any independence amongst the farmers. Learning disabilities and autism rates will be made to sky-rocket by poisoning babies through vaccines. There are many other such tools which will be put into use.

As was mentioned at the beginning, this is speculative, but it is based on historical experience of how neo-colonization has been achieved in other countries.

Is this really true? Have such things happened before? If you could give some links, would be nice. I feel what you have written is even more scarier than the thought of a new war or a scenario of a nuclear bum being dropped on some city in India.

Thanks

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 25 Apr 2010 23:23

chandrasekhar.m wrote: Learning disabilities and autism rates will be made to sky-rocket by poisoning babies through vaccines

There is an increase in the test for Indian mothers in the US recently. Any reason for this.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 26 Apr 2010 01:38

Shivlal Vedhavani wrote
I feel its time to induct Rahul as PM, otherwise the S Gandhi family brand will be overtaken by events and gradually may become irrelavant. The recent standing up of some sections of people, who otherwise were considered strong hold. Timing was everything and Mrs IG was expert in that sense

This probably belongs more to the "leadership thread"? :)

Very briefly, dynastic politics based on a particular family creates problems in a country that is just beginning to emerge as a nation in the expanding/power grabbing sense in world politics. [In an earlier era I would have called this imperialist ambition].

(1) The dynasty is no guarantee that the best minds come to handle the reins of state power. Unless you have a system like the British monarchy where the monarch is a figurehead, and has no real decision making role, we cannot guarantee the "hard" and visionary personalities necessary for several genarational timespans to be pulling the real strings.
(2) Indian history shows that dynastic rulerships typically degenerated within 3-4 generations. Dynasties that survived longer did so by either bringing different branches in, or power shifting to essentially feudatories allied through marriage (keeping hereditary legitimacy), or starting out afresh after being drastically reduced. The excessive paranoia about losing power outside the "lineage" in this particualr family, has kept those other possibilities out. (no branches have been allowed to effectively survive)
(3) The traumatic sequence of personal losses in thsi family has made the current matriarch over anxious about the safety of her family. The coterie that has developed around the family and who survive only because of the family would be even more anxious. This makes the whole power centre quite shaky about taking steps that obstruct the long term designs of several imperialist international groupings. If they do, the potential successors will be liquidated by the externs. [The specific method of removing bloodline successors point the finger at cultures who believe in hereditary power structures and obsess over it - there are at least two in the world]

Saying more, I believe, is problematic. I think, we need to diffuse the risk on the "family" for taking steps that will be unpleasant to the powers who are behind the Jihadis, EJ's and the Maoists. It is time for the "family" to take a back seat, so that the "unpleasant" tasks are not seen to be sourced from them. I think the matriarch, at heart wanted to do this and still wants to, but has been forced by various pressures to engage. There should be a negotiated gentle road for retreat and "abdication" with full honours for what the family has "done" but a new dispensation needs to come over. A plebeian group, non-hereditary - and siufficiently large in number who cannot simply be done away with by assassinations. The national focus needs to shift from family/person to a "movement/ideology" where leaders are voices of national purpose, and not mere "bloodlines".

This would be the softest and gentlest way of doing what is necessary for the future. Any other way leads to traumatic struggle for power, revolutions, and a lot of internecine conflicts which will become inevitable to put up the required regime that can actually hold the nation together and give it purpose in the face of determined imperialist aggression.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 26 Apr 2010 05:56

chandrasekhar.m wrote:
Pranav wrote:x-post from Indian Interests thread:
Gradually, industrialization will be crippled on the pretext of global warming. The Maoists will also be used against the economy. The population will be slowly poisoned through genetically modified food. The terminator-seed technology will also be used to prevent any independence amongst the farmers. Learning disabilities and autism rates will be made to sky-rocket by poisoning babies through vaccines. There are many other such tools which will be put into use.

As was mentioned at the beginning, this is speculative, but it is based on historical experience of how neo-colonization has been achieved in other countries.

Is this really true? Have such things happened before? If you could give some links, would be nice. I feel what you have written is even more scarier than the thought of a new war or a scenario of a nuclear bum being dropped on some city in India.

Thanks


Yes, there is a lot of information, for example here is something about the health effects of some GM foods: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-s ... 44575.html . I will try to post some other links in due course of time.

Some of the levers for neo-colonization and enslavement in the modern world are:

1. Electronic voting
2. News and entertainment media
3. Monetary policy
4. Distorted history and sociology pushed through the educational system
5. Poisoning and sterilization through genetically modified food, vaccinations, and other means
6. De-industrialization through global warming laws and Maoist violence
7. Terminator seeds to control the peasantry
8. Creation of useful idiots through engineered riots, religious conversions, Maoism, and even radical Hindu nationalism
9. Propping up of external enemies (e.g. military and financial support to Pakistan)
10. Assassinations of leaders who step out of line (MK Gandhi, LB Shastri, Indira, Rajiv)

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby chandrasekhar.m » 26 Apr 2010 20:41

Thanks, Pranav for that info. I thought GM food had not penetrated India, but from that link, it is being used for feeding cattle already. Are we also eating GM food in ignorance?

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Carl_T » 26 Apr 2010 20:45

If you are not eating GM food now, you will be soon. There's nothing wrong with it.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 27 Apr 2010 01:53

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/5861539.cms
US biggest 'threat' to China, says top Chinese military expert
27 Apr 2010, 0021 hrs IST,IANS

BEIJING: The US is the greatest "perceived threat" to the People's Liberation Army (PLA) and cross-Straits relationship was the most likely subject to provoke a China-US war, a top Chinese military strategist has said.
"The US is the only country capable of threatening China's national security interests in an all-round way," Rear Admiral Yang Yi, former head of strategic studies at the PLA's National Defence University, said last week to a group of visiting senior US officials. "Japan has no such ability, while Russia has no such motivation and India is more worried about China," Yang said while addressing delegates at the weeklong US-China Government Executive Global Leadership Course that concluded last Friday.


Yang is either an innocent or an enfant terrible, or devious of the highest order. Japan does not itself has the ability, yes, but it hosts US bases. Moreover it is in an unique position to quickly serve as a fixed "off-shore" launching pad for destruction of the economically crucial coastal area sof China. Any antics by China as to imperialist posturings will weaken the current "left-leaning" (more independent of USA -compromise and "friendship" with China) government in Japan.

Russia has no such motivation - indeed! Tactical and strategic interests coincide so far between China and Russia. But China's south-Asia policy, any attempt at expanding into CAR at the cost of Russia, will cause quite a bit of rumblings on Putin;s side. China will be highly mistaken if it wants to believe that Putin is not trying his best to revive the "Russian Empire". China and Russia has not had an easy relationship since Mao's drift and dance with the USA. The trust or reliability of the Comintern days of USSR is broken. Putin hails from the KGB era and has imbibed all the lessons that the Chinese have taught the Russians since the 60's.

Is India "more" worried about China? "More" than whom? Or did he mean that India is "scared"? Perhaps a section of Indian regime is. But who knows what the Indians are really thinking? Maybe they want to create the impression that they are scared!

All these Chinese military or strategic experts somehow seem to fail to grasp the vulnerable geo-strategic position of China in its western reaches. "Bulges" are always problematic for they can be flanked. The sheer size of the Western Chinese bulge may seem too large and "difficult terrain" to be a cause of weakness and extended frontlines in case anyone plans a flanking move. However the "size" depends on the level of technology - the speed and range of penetration of projectiles and troop movements. So, a many times larger size than the famous "bulges" of the WWII does not guarantee protection from being outflanked.


Yang said Beijing was hoping to maintain and develop a stable and healthy relationship with Washington but it also needed to make necessary preparations for any possible threat. "Fortunately, the risk of a Sino-US confrontation is decreasing due to the relaxation of the Taiwan question," China Daily reported Sunday quoting Yang.


Actually, USA is the least likely to upset the Chinese power structure right now. It will only do so after it clears up ME and AFPak. So the spectre of a confrontation with the USA is really a cover to justify the continued military upgradation of the PLA - and the real target of China is actually "capturing" and securing the IOR, ME and CAR for itself.

He said the Taiwan question would be solved politically rather than militarily, adding the cross-Straits relationship would become even more stable and secure if it continued to develop positively over the next five to 10 years. Talking about US arms sales to Taiwan, Yang said: "Those weapons will be ours sooner or later."


This is an interesting take. If China was really that confident of its own weapons, it would not be boasting about the Taiwanese weapons eventually falling into its own hands. Perhaps China realizes that it is actually failing its own military capability targets? The timeline of 5-10 years is also interesting, as China possibly realizes that beyond this timeframe, its imperialist ambitions may become jeopardized with rising power of India and new alliances based on ME, CAR and Russia.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 27 Apr 2010 02:34

brihaspati wrote: - and the real target of China is actually "capturing" and securing the IOR, ME and CAR for itself.

But this is the target of US also. Is PRC a proxy for US policy in these regions.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 27 Apr 2010 02:36

I see them as temporary "allies" - almost like two thugs joined in a common burglary but each eyeing the other constantly, and looking at the right opportunity to dump the other and take all the loot.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 27 Apr 2010 02:38

brihaspati wrote:I see them as temporary "allies" - almost like two thugs joined in a common burglary but each eyeing the other constantly, and looking at the right opportunity to dump the other and take all the loot.

They may come together too to kick another third country

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 27 Apr 2010 02:49

Yes, they would have both kicked India. But it is the "eyeing each other" part. India is a good bargaianing chip for USA to use against China. So for the moment, until the ME strategic situation is not solved, USA will preserve India in Chinese tussles. Once the "western" theatre is secure, then it could be India's turn to be the sacrificial lamb at the altar.

But things can go very wrong in the "western" theatre itself. Moreover, it seems that the west is also losing its traditional handles within the Indian rashtra. The desperation in the media and the overt attempts at opinion control or rather jerky reactions at anyone trying to obstruct "imperialist" designs [PC and others....] means the usual suspects in both west and "east" are increasingly growing unsure about where their plans and programmes actually stand with respect to India.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 27 Apr 2010 03:02

brihaspati wrote:
But things can go very wrong in the "western" theatre itself. Moreover, it seems that the west is also losing its traditional handles within the Indian rashtra. The desperation in the media and the overt attempts at opinion control or rather jerky reactions at anyone trying to obstruct "imperialist" designs [PC and others....] means the usual suspects in both west and "east" are increasingly growing unsure about where their plans and programmes actually stand with respect to India.

Uncertainty is not good. It means that India will be a target of war.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Prem » 27 Apr 2010 03:10

Acharya wrote:
brihaspati wrote:I see them as temporary "allies" - almost like two thugs joined in a common burglary but each eyeing the other constantly, and looking at the right opportunity to dump the other and take all the loot.

They may come together too to kick another third country


If the target country acquire enough strength to maim or give mortal wound to at least one of them , both wont fight knowing that maimed one will be eliminated by the other thus it is in their own interest to not to start the fight and fall victim to the same game. Even for their joining together, time line is shrinking fast and both will try to pretend friendship to save their own skin.
What about having furture strategic scenario with having 2 Sahasar strategic weapons deployed , Pachas lacks Sainik backed by 10T economy and ruthless leadeship hell bent on straighting dog tail in the near abroad. This can be realiastically achievable in next 15 years or so.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 27 Apr 2010 03:25

Prem wrote:

If the target country acquire enough strength to maim or give mortal wound to at least one of them , both wont fight knowing that maimed one will be eliminated by the other thus it is in their own interest to not to start the fight and fall victim to the same game.

Will they believe that the target country has the capacity to create serious damage.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 27 Apr 2010 03:28

Acharya wrote:
Prem wrote:

If the target country acquire enough strength to maim or give mortal wound to at least one of them , both wont fight knowing that maimed one will be eliminated by the other thus it is in their own interest to not to start the fight and fall victim to the same game.

Will they believe that the target country has the capacity to create serious damage.


Should we be that worried about a potential war that may be inevitable? I think we are sending wrong signals out that Indians are scared of war. In fact the more we welcome war, the farther it will be moved aaway from India. Almost every scenario of war that the current imperialists can think of [which I can think of as they can think of] will be a trap for them, from which they will come out destoyed as powers.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Apr 2010 04:57

brihaspati wrote:In fact the more we welcome war, the farther it will be moved aaway from India. Almost every scenario of war that the current imperialists can think of [which I can think of as they can think of] will be a trap for them, from which they will come out destoyed as powers.


I heard that during Op Parakram US had duped IN warships by sending them false radio message to return back home. And they fell for it. Don't they have too much advantage in tech superiority?

Brihaspatiji can you give me your blog address? I would like to visit it.

Thanks!!!

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Sanku » 27 Apr 2010 14:36

India a theator of war? But it already is? I guess what is meant is a bigger war with full mobilization and sorts.

I am personally certain its only a matter of time, and how (one front, two etc..) not IF.

Frankly all large prosperous nations have to ready for perpetual war, and also fight major engagements a regular intervals. Anything short of being ready to do that means destruction. Total and complete.

This is the repeated lesson of world history. This is how it has always been, this is how it will always be.

Ramana, posted a history of Eastern Roman Empire -- very very educational.


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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Apr 2010 16:45

Sanku wrote:Frankly all large prosperous nations have to ready for perpetual war, and also fight major engagements a regular intervals. Anything short of being ready to do that means destruction. Total and complete.

This is the repeated lesson of world history. This is how it has always been, this is how it will always be.

Ramana, posted a history of Eastern Roman Empire -- very very educational.

Sanku! I can't find where I read this incident, do you know anything about it:
I heard that during Op Parakram US had duped IN warships by sending them false radio message to return back home. And they fell for it.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Sanku » 27 Apr 2010 17:14

Manish_Sharma wrote:Sanku! I can't find where I read this incident, do you know anything about it:
I heard that during Op Parakram US had duped IN warships by sending them false radio message to return back home. And they fell for it.


I haven't heard that one, what was discussed on BRF before was that US ships were closely escorting the Paki ships (merchantmen) and were generally loitering in the area where IN would kick Paki ass, ostensibly this was to soothe matters and keep a eye on things etc. Just being friendly you know.

Of course we here took the US word for it. :evil:

References should be in the Kargil thread.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2010 19:38

chandrasekhar.m wrote:Thanks, Pranav for that info. I thought GM food had not penetrated India, but from that link, it is being used for feeding cattle already. Are we also eating GM food in ignorance?


As far as I know, no GM foods have been approved as yet, but trials have been conducted, and contamination is a danger. See

Bayer Admits GMO Contamination is Out of Control : http://www.organicconsumers.org/article ... _19777.cfm

Also of interest:

Three Approved GMOs Linked to Organ Damage : http://foodfreedom.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... an-damage/

Monsanto is probably the biggest name in the GM foods business. They have very close links with the US Govt - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#P ... y_Monsanto

Some may say that it is a case of successful lobbying in the interest of profits. The way I would put it is that the owners of Monsanto are in consonance with the elites that control the US Govt.

Monsanto is also well-known for the "terminator" technology, which prevents farmers from planting harvested seeds. This is a part of the overall theme - that no human being should have the means to stay alive independently of the plutocratic elite.


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