Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

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ramana
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby ramana » 27 Apr 2010 20:31

Folks some discipline mangata hain. There is a GMO thread in GDF. You should post there other wise why don't we have one thread where everyone can post and be happy. No forum vorum. Just a messy bulletin board.
No need for admins etc bothering you.

And Pranav atleast you shouldnt have replied here.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 27 Apr 2010 20:34

Manish Sharma ji,
I contribute to a blog which was started by a friend of non-Indian origin. But it is mostly focused on the antics of a certain faith as regards India. Search for dikgaj on wordpress.

About war etc., there is a key observation needed to understand the situation about India. The stability and security depends on holding two key sectors (1) the northern Himalayan river plains arc - the one reaching from Gujarat and Sindh in the west through the Punjab, into UP to Bihar and Bengal, (2) the southern coastal sea-board on both sides of the peninsula.

The northen arc is a key flow pipe for trade and productivity of resources and whoever holds both mouths of this pipe - the Bengal Delta and SindhuDesh-Saurashtra - holds the main driving engine of the north. This arc is vulnerable at only one place and that is the north-west Gandhara direction. Similarly, whoever holds the coastal south holds the key to coastal sea trade, and holding key vantage points prevents vulnerability from maritime invasions.

Current India has lost control on both the mouths of the northern pipe. It has also lost control over the access point from Gandhara. It only has its southern sea-board. Thus in the four point geo-strategic vantages, India has lost three key northern ones required to protect itself from continuous attempts by looters with little or no civilizational qualms.

Whenever India lost control of one or more of these northern entry points, it found it difficult to resist coordinated attacks from ideologically self-justifying looters - like the Islamist Turko Afghans or the Brits. The looting ideology of such groups can sustain itself over longer periods than common looters like the pre-Islamic Mongols or the Huns, and are also destructive for Indian society because the sole purpose of these cultures are to destroy other civilizations. What they themselves cannot enjoy or understand they will destroy.

It is natural that both these cultures (not necessearily formally governments) find themselves allies (yes in spite of the deceptive and strange conflict between them in AFG) essentially against anything concerning India. The USA will bargain over the body of India with China and Paki Occupied Western India purely for tactical and strategic reasons - almost in a commercial mode transaction. But the underlying drivers of British policy will do this bargaining with the Paki Occupation Government of Western India and China, with a sadistic relish because of added ideological underpinnings and historical revenge.

As long as Britian survives as a power with disproprtionate share of world domination compared to its real contribution in economic terms, it will protect the Islamist ideology and therefore by connection, the Jihadi core against India. If war comes to India, it will not be because of USA abandoning its positions in ME - for USA usually quickly cuts its losses when it realizes the long term infeasibility of any of its power projections - but because sections within British foreign policy drivers, decide to take the chance or they see the chance. It will be done skillfully under cover of a formal American withdrawal so that formally the Brits do not look responsible. The Americans typically appear to me to be fools compared to the Brits where subtle national; level manipulations are concerned. The British steamy affair with all sorts of Islamists, including the ones from the source peninsula and the ongoing appeasement of Islamists in the Isles point to a deep running mindset that somehow Americans seems to miss. I think they should read Lawrence again and again and again - and even the infamous allusion to certain ahem ahem acts. That gentleman provides a lot of insight unintentionally, in his book as to how and what motivates the Isle Anglo-Saxon policy makers.

I would have been quite wary of taking the Brit offer of assistance against "terror" in the ME adventures - if I were American. But naturally the Americans fell for it. It was also politically seen perhaps as a necessary step to keep the EU divided and therefore on-board. The Brits offered to help in exactly all those countries and regions where they ahd once led a merry dance with their secret services attempting social engineering and political infiltration.

Long ago I wrote on this forum, that because the Brits are involved in the AFG campaign, we may find increasing evidence of accurate counter-strikes by the Islamists on NATO supply columns and an eventual withdrawal of the western armies. These sort of stuff are pretty good indicators of bi-directional penetration between radical organizations and national secret services.

Looking at it from the British secret service viewpoint, and especially if they subsrcibe to the racist muck of British imperialism, they have successfully managed to get USA commit resources, get destroyed in men and materials, and weakened in political and military terms as afar as Asian presence goes. The British have always shown this imperial ego in absolutely hating those on whom they are forced to lean on for resources and talent - it happened with Indians and it is probably happening since WWII with the Americans. Added to that the nurderous hatred of ex-colonies that revolted.

Once USA withdraws the remaining target will be India.

So I believe that in the long run a proxy war will be unavoidable. India cannot take aggressive steps here on the main actors behind the scenes, and it is not prudent to do so. India can only prepare to face a war and even a nuclear war in which India is attacked with nukes should not be out of vision. It should better prepare Indians as to how to mobilize in case of such disasters. It shoudl also prepare them psychologically that borders are temporary compromises. Losing territory temporarily does not mean the death of the nation, neither should they expect the current borders to be permanent. Those borders could expand. It is a fluid concept of contraction and expansion.

I have my own arguments as to why any such secret provocation and encouragement to the Pakis to move against India will eventually mean the destruction of the western "friend" of India. But let us keep their lurkers guessing. :mrgreen: I am not ineterested in the destrcution of their commons as they have plenty of good honest and hardworking people but the impact of their weakening that will have on the Pakis that I welcome any such move on their leaders' or secret services part.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2010 20:41

ramana wrote:Folks some discipline mangata hain. There is a GMO thread in GDF. You should post there other wise why don't we have one thread where everyone can post and be happy. No forum vorum. Just a messy bulletin board.
No need for admins etc bothering you.

And Pranav atleast you shouldnt have replied here.



The focus was on GMOs as a tool for chemical and biological warfare, and economic control. That particular point has been made, so there is no need to go further in that direction.

The overall theme is to discuss techniques being used for neo-colonization, backed up by credible references.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby ramana » 27 Apr 2010 20:47

I expected better form you. Justifying adding to thread indiscipline?.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 27 Apr 2010 21:09

Carrying on my previous post : I still think the "west" and India can be friends, even politically and militarily. The problem is that historical baggage of racial and colour based constructs encouraged by the western elite - from both religious as well as political background, prevents growth of mutual respect which must come before any actual long lasting friendship.

On a more tangible commercial and "opportunities" angle, the western elite must understand that by letting India expand in both east and west on the subcontinent, they actually profit. The tremendous commercial instincts of India and its innovative approach in science or technology, will provide a massive engine of growth that can absorb the costs of transforming a deeply scarred Jihadi society that wests' short term policies created in Paki Occupied Areas.

Moreover, India as friend of the Anglo Saxons provide the right infiltrations that can ensure continued "friendliness". This can ensure, long term secured access to CAR through roads and trasnportation networks built by India after expansion. Moreover, an economically strong India helps to keep prices down for the west against China.

And finally, at a single stroke, global Jihad's main distribution centre is no more - removing huge costs for the west.

Will the right people listen! Dun'kno! But there is a wee bit of chance that some of the Americans - more than the Brits - start thinking. Their commercial instincts are less clouded by ideology - especially of race.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2010 22:01

ramana wrote:I expected better form you. Justifying adding to thread indiscipline?.


IMHO, some little elaboration on GMOs does belong in a discussion on neo-colonization. Anyway, it's been dealt with adequately now.
Last edited by Pranav on 27 Apr 2010 22:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 27 Apr 2010 22:02

brihaspati wrote:
On a more tangible commercial and "opportunities" angle, the western elite must understand that by letting India expand in both east and west on the subcontinent, they actually profit. The tremendous commercial instincts of India and its innovative approach in science or technology, will provide a massive engine of growth that can absorb the costs of transforming a deeply scarred Jihadi society that wests' short term policies created in Paki Occupied Areas.

The western elite see India as a problem to their long term economic interest. That is the reason the Greater India (Afg+Pak+India+Nepal+Myanmar+SriLanka+Tibet+...) was broken up between 1900-1950. They built up PRC to counter Sardar Patels India.
Add ME also into this conglomerate and that is a super economy which will dominate the world in the future.
100 years project which has been going on has still not stopped.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Prem » 27 Apr 2010 22:15

Acharya,
Western Elites or onlee British emebedded in this elite circle planting , creating doubt etc about Indian intentions. They went from Empire making to current bottom of the barrell scraping withn half century after loosing India. Not being full part of EC( means accepting French/German supremacy) and now pushed to sideline by Obama, this is one problem which is diminshing by the day . I Think ,the best course to tackle them is to do reverse EIC on them and simultaneously breaking the arms and legs of their proxies in Indicland. Right kind of Investment by India in in Afghanistan will go log way in keeping UQ and her demented children on backfooting. india can use its own Islamist horse in Mahakhel.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 28 Apr 2010 18:03

Acharya wrote
The western elite see India as a problem to their long term economic interest. That is the reason the Greater India (Afg+Pak+India+Nepal+Myanmar+SriLanka+Tibet+...) was broken up between 1900-1950. They built up PRC to counter Sardar Patels India.
Add ME also into this conglomerate and that is a super economy which will dominate the world in the future.
100 years project which has been going on has still not stopped.


The axis is still the same. It is the Nordic-Germanic filtered as to adventure and openness over time and migration. From their known historical origin (could be remnant of earlier migrations from CAR after getting out of India), in north Europe around the Roman period - we see stages of expansion and immigration as well as colonization.

The features of "national" behaviour we see can be well explained on this crude but effective hypothesis - that immigration usually pushes out the more adventurous and exploratory or open-minded segment of a population. So the sections that colonized the British Isles were more "open" compared to those they left behind in the frozen north. Those that immigrated and colonized America from the Isles were more "open" than those they left nehind in the Isles. This progressive increase in a kind of distillation process for "openness" should not be equated with increasing "liberal" attitudes. But it is more in terms of greater flexibility in strategic and tactical approach to attain whatever objectives they have in their horizon.

The Americans have succeeded where the Brits have failed, because of this flexibility, But their openness also makes them "fools" a bit compared to the Brit old hands. The British policymakers still cannot get out of their imperialist "golden age" straightjackets and does its utmost to score for its perceived historical "losses" and retreats. British anger at USA comes from the first serious kick in the backside because of the American revolution. British anger at continental Europe comes because Europe destroyed its empire in WWII. British anger at USA increased because they had to take US help to survive in WWII. British anger at India comes from daring to go out of the empire. British core policy is still mangled up in this "empire" hangover and its covert operations and diplomacy are partly still twisted by this anachronistic drive. This does not mean that they do not gain short term victories. But over the long run they are dragging down all those allied with them for historical, racial or religious reasons. USA is still suffering from its Brit connection. Financial troubles, unwise foreign wars, drugs - especially the opium/heroin trade, all of these could be areas where this connection has burdened the USA.

It is time the USA "drivers" seated deep inside their "rashtryia" setup begin to rethink whether they have not been led into one trap after another in the ME and they need to explore KSA links to the British establishment. They also will benefit in the long run if they rethink their alliances - and show some flexibility from their British inheritance of racial profiling.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 28 Apr 2010 21:11

brihaspati wrote:
It is time the USA "drivers" seated deep inside their "rashtryia" setup begin to rethink whether they have not been led into one trap after another in the ME and they need to explore KSA links to the British establishment. They also will benefit in the long run if they rethink their alliances - and show some flexibility from their British inheritance of racial profiling.

This is not simple. This more about religion and race and geopolitics.

You post needs a detailed reply. Later.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Atri » 28 Apr 2010 21:44

In my opinion, to understand India, her history and her civilization, we need to look at the classical concept of Sapta-Sindhu. Although the concept of Sapta-Sindhu has been changing with time, in all the given times, India's civilization along with her production centres, centres of learning, centres for military and political power and economic growth have been along the Sapta-Sindhus of contemporary time.

In Early Vedic times, the Sapta Sindhu means rivers of Punjab, Saraswat and kabul. In later Vedic period, it also includes Ganga-basin as well (Mandala 10, Nadistuti sukta). By the time of Vishnupuran (around 400BC) the pan-subcontinental view of sapta-sindhu was ascertained. It is included in 7 holy rivers of Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri.

Image

I think in modern times, the 7 basins which I have marked in map above marks the centre of gravity for India.

1 - Red - Indus Basin
2 - Red - Ganga basin
3 - Yellow - Krishna-Godavari Basin (I think they should always be considered together because people, rulers, and market of this region behaves in similar way with respect to Indo-Gangetic basin and Kaveri basin)
4 - Blue - Narmada-Tapti Basin
5 - Blue - Mahanadi Basin
6 - Blue - Kaveri Basin
7 - Black - Airavati Basin

It is impossible for the people from basin 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 to progress alone without being bothered by people from basin 1 (Indus valley) and without taking care of basin 7 (Irawati valley). With time (in not so distant future), people from basin 1 and 7 will have to be persuaded (forcefully or peacefully) to join in.

The people from Basin 3 overlook the affairs of people from basin 2 and basin 6. The influence of rulers and market of this region spills over to aforementioned basins time and again. During most of the times, basin 4 and Basin 5 play secondary role to the interaction of basin 2 and basin 3.

Basin 6 is comparatively secluded from the affairs of basins 1,2,3,4,5 and thus has acted as perfect incubation facility for sustained growth (of market and produce). Furthermore, substantial parts of basin 6 are blessed with rains for 8 months, thus making Kaveri valley as one of the most fertile regions of India.

Basin 7 has to be taken into consideration as it acts as a sole gate-way to India for another rising power in Asia, China.

The political unification of these 7 river-basins from source till mouth of the major river and their tributaries is the key towards stable India and world. This entire region of all these rivers is needed to be brought back into the fold of Indic civilization, so that even in case of political disintegration, India will stay..

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 28 Apr 2010 23:11

Acharya ji,
I am aware of the difficulties. But I am sending out a feeler here. I know that there are seeds of acceptance in some places. I think you realize what I am aiming for. :P

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 30 Apr 2010 18:39

A South Korean student has pointed me to some very interesting discussions on the net with a Korean interest at heart. One of these are in
http://koreansentry.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1325.

Well, if Tibet can obtain their independence from China, Tibet will need military aid from India and other neighbors.

There is more South Korea can do as India was one of the country who sent military aid for South Korea during Korean war. Also, Indian market is more attractive to Korean companies than Chinese market. South Korea is also supporting India to get permanent UN security council seat as well.
However, because of North Korea, South Korea have some limit dealing with China, at the moment SK is neutral stand on India VS China.
Chinese military is not that powerful as some Chinese nationalists claimed, Chinese military have very little real war experience, and from previous boarder incursions they fought with Vietnamese, Mongolian and Russian, China lost all three boarder wars. If there is real war between India and China, China won't last long.


^ You don't need to worry about these Han majority, Chinese can't fight well as we've seen from Iraq & Afghanistan. You just need to detain few Han Chinese leaders and scare them. If Tibet is independence, I'm sure US allies will move in, this is another reason why Chinese govt won't give up Tibet. Not only Tibet provides them with modern day slavery, it also provides valuable natural resources, and strategic military location. New Tibetan govt must escort these Han migrants out of Tibet as Tibet doesn't need them.


Every Chinese dynasty has its rise and its fall. The CCP shouldn't be immune to that same pattern. One day Chinese will be fed up at the rampant corruption, forceful evictions out of their homes, lack of freedoms, etc. and there will be massive rioting. When PLA units are tied down in suppressing the internal rebellions, the Indian army can sweep into Tibet and capture Lhasa without much problems. CCP will then cede Tibet in exchange for cessation of further Indian encroachments. Tibet will be free. Laughing


They have a more active and current topic on comparative super-power potentials of China and India. Look at the responses that follow the quote from http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/the-future-belongs-to-india,-not-china? (the quote itself is also interesting in the way it shows the usual suspects with strong Brit affiliation and identity - Murk Tully is no longer a "Brit" 8) ).

But the current crisis around NK, is all the more reason for an Indian initiative in the region in favour of SK. China's role in NK is an opportunity that should not be missed by India and those among the Tibetans who realize that a military-political campaign is necessary to achieve them their nation. With all due respect to HH Dalai Lama, he should be kept out of this. It is a different game that must be played the hard way.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 30 Apr 2010 18:59

brihaspati wrote:Looking at it from the British secret service viewpoint, and especially if they subsrcibe to the racist muck of British imperialism, they have successfully managed to get USA commit resources, get destroyed in men and materials, and weakened in political and military terms as afar as Asian presence goes. The British have always shown this imperial ego in absolutely hating those on whom they are forced to lean on for resources and talent - it happened with Indians and it is probably happening since WWII with the Americans. Added to that the nurderous hatred of ex-colonies that revolted.

Once USA withdraws the remaining target will be India.


B ji, Brit elites == US elites, it is the same elite families that operate on both sides of the Atlantic.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 30 Apr 2010 19:05

Pranav ji,
there are aspects of subtle competition between the two sides of the pond. Have you looked into the drugs-opium connection in this regard? Brit-US-China axis?

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 30 Apr 2010 19:23

brihaspati wrote:Pranav ji,
there are aspects of subtle competition between the two sides of the pond. Have you looked into the drugs-opium connection in this regard? Brit-US-China axis?


Hmmm ... there have been studies about CIA involvement in drugs (a book by journalist Gary Webb is famous) ... but I was not aware of disagreements between US and UK elites on that topic.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 30 Apr 2010 19:32

Opium - Ahifena (the foam of the snake) - was just one of the items used for thousands of years in India - for its medicinal purpose. It had never appered as a social problem or a means of statcraft and foreign subversion. But once the Brits discovered it - from there the trail leads to China, back to USA, back to Europe. The history of international trade in opium and its refinemnets is almost the history of British colonialism. However there are some important cross-flows in this regard that involve the triumvirate I mentioned. Do make the search with all "three". You will find interesting nuggets of linkages between the big banks, financial moguls, Brit elite, US and Brits secret services, and Chinese Communists. Why Shanghai and HK remain important financial and material processing centres for thsi trade. What went on with the money that came out fo the trade - all three benefited in different aspects and also competed with each other. Perhaps theys till do, and this aspect is one of the missing variables in our geostrageic analysis.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 30 Apr 2010 19:39

Atri wrote:In Early Vedic times, the Sapta Sindhu means rivers of Punjab, Saraswat and kabul. In later Vedic period, it also includes Ganga-basin as well (Mandala 10, Nadistuti sukta). By the time of Vishnupuran (around 400BC) the pan-subcontinental view of sapta-sindhu was ascertained. It is included in 7 holy rivers of Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri.


Atri, there is another view that the Vedic core was the Gangetic Valley, and then there was expansion towards the west.

See http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -book.html

This tallies with Indian traditions of Ram being ruler of Ayodhya, and Lav and Kush establishing the cities of Lahore and Kasur.

The sons of Bharat are supposed to have established the cities of Pushkalavati (Charsadda) and Takshashila (Taxila).

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 01 May 2010 02:31

http://blog.taragana.com/politics/2010/04/29/us-must-reassure-pakistan-about-india-says-us-official-32113/

US must reassure Pakistan about India, says US official
By Arun Kumar, IANS
April 29th, 2010

“Although extremist attacks have led to the repositioning of substantial Pakistani forces, Pakistan’s strategic concerns about India remain pre-eminent,” Michele Flournoy, Under Secretary for Policy in the Department of Defence, told the House Armed Services Committee Thursday. “We must continue to reassure Pakistan that as it combats the terrorist threat, it is not exposing itself to increased risk along its eastern border,” she said noting that Pakistan is also wary about the increasing Indo-US relationship.“A final hurdle, frankly, relates to the legacy of mistrust between the United States and Pakistan. Past US sanctions, past Pakistani concerns about the growing US-India relationship, its scepticism about US staying power in the region have made it a weary partner,” Flournoy said.
[...]
“Pakistan’s approach to military networks changed when these militants began directing their violence inward, against the Pakistani state, the people and the society,” Flournoy said. “Similarly, reports of Pakistan’s tolerance and support for some violent extremist groups have created scepticism on the US side,” she said, adding that this is a partnership that is absolutely vital to US national interests. “But it is also complex. And the need for candid dialogue and mutual reassurance remains very strong, and I believe we have made substantial progress in this regard over the last year,” she said.

India too has moved troops from the Pakistan border with US making “overtures, obviously, that trying to diminish the feeling of a threat there will have mutual benefits and a lessening of tensions within the region,” another official testified. “And I think we have good partners and allies on both sides of the India-Pakistan equation,” Lt. Gen John Paxton, Director for Operations, Joint Chiefs of Staff said.


Now, have troops really been moved on the Indian side?

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby ramana » 01 May 2010 02:48

One way for US to assure the TSP is to station atleast five divisons of US troops inside TSP on Indian border as trip wire forces to garauntee that any attackon TSP will be defended by them.
8)

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby naren » 01 May 2010 04:22

Prem wrote:Acharya,
Western Elites or onlee British emebedded in this elite circle planting , creating doubt etc about Indian intentions. They went from Empire making to current bottom of the barrell scraping withn half century after loosing India. Not being full part of EC( means accepting French/German supremacy) and now pushed to sideline by Obama, this is one problem which is diminshing by the day .


Ah... Karma is such a biatch. All their Aryan nonsense came back to bite them in the form of Nazis. :twisted:

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 01 May 2010 04:47

ramana wrote:One way for US to assure the TSP is to station atleast five divisons of US troops inside TSP on Indian border as trip wire forces to garauntee that any attackon TSP will be defended by them.
8)

They can also ensure that no terrorists again will cross over to India.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Atri » 01 May 2010 05:13

Pranav wrote:
Atri wrote:In Early Vedic times, the Sapta Sindhu means rivers of Punjab, Saraswat and kabul. In later Vedic period, it also includes Ganga-basin as well (Mandala 10, Nadistuti sukta). By the time of Vishnupuran (around 400BC) the pan-subcontinental view of sapta-sindhu was ascertained. It is included in 7 holy rivers of Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri.


Atri, there is another view that the Vedic core was the Gangetic Valley, and then there was expansion towards the west.

See http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2009/0 ... -book.html

This tallies with Indian traditions of Ram being ruler of Ayodhya, and Lav and Kush establishing the cities of Lahore and Kasur.

The sons of Bharat are supposed to have established the cities of Pushkalavati (Charsadda) and Takshashila (Taxila).


Pranav ji,

Quite possible. However a reading of Rigveda shows us that any river which is mentioned highest number of times in Rigveda and praised the most is neither Sindhu, nor Ganga.. It is Saraswati. This drastically reduces the possibility that the composition of bulk of Rigveda (at least) was in Gangetic valley. This suggests that the core was Saraswati basin (modern Rajasthan) from where the Vedics expanded in both directions. Ganga comes in Nadi-stuti sukta (10th mandala of Rigveda).

Paper by Nicholas Kazanas - http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indology/RPSSC.pdf

This suggests that Vedic culture originated in Saraswati basin prior to IVC. The pastoral aryans of Saraswati basin started dwelling in cities (found in remains of SSC - Sindhu-Saraswati civilization).

In this paper, he shows that horse was known to IVC - http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indo ... Debate.pdf

which again concurrently proves the Saraswati based seers who composed Rigveda and later urbanized to IVC. The knowledge of horse to writers of vedas is well known. Discovery of domesticated horse's teeth from the archaeological sites of IVC shows that IVC was in fact urbanised Vedic people.

Through a thorough study done on the equid remains of the protohistoric settlement at Surkotada, Kutch excavated under Dr J P Joshi, I can conclude following - The occurrence of true horse (Equus caballus L.) was evidenced by the enamel pattern of the upper and lower cheek and teeth and by the size and form of incisors and phalanges. Since no wild horse ever lived in India is post-pliestocene period, the domestic nature of surkotada horse is undoubtful. This is also supported by inter-maxilla fragment whose incisor shows a clear sign of biting, a bad habit particularly found in domestic horses which are not extensively used for war. - Sandor Börkönyi - December 13th, 1993, in his letter director general of Archeological society of India.

http://books.google.dk/books?id=8VnAk14 ... n+(editors)+(2005).+Indo-Aryan+Controversy:+Evidence+and+Inference+in+Indian+History&source=web&ots=AH6ebIeeu_&sig=5P2sAV3Lr1lNdbF_jTj5LBoplSk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA70,M1]

This link shows the aforementioned Börkönyi's letter.

2)One terracotta from late level of Mohenjodaro seems to represent a horse reminding us that jaw bone of horse has also been recovered at same site and that horse is known from considerably earlier period in Baloochistan

http://books.google.dk/books?id=8VnAk14 ... n+(editors)+(2005).+Indo-Aryan+Controversy:+Evidence+and+Inference+in+Indian+History&source=web&ots=AH6ebIeeu_&sig=5P2sAV3Lr1lNdbF_jTj5LBoplSk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA69,M1

All these citations seem to prove that as far as the composers of early stages of Rigveda are concerned, they were stationed in Sapta-Sindhu region, and more precisely in Saraswati river basin. From this basin, they expanded both ways, into the Central Asia and Iran, and into the dense forests of Gangetic plains.

Furthermore, The war of 10 kings (Dasharaagna Yuddha) (wiki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings) describes the invasion from northwest on to the Bharata king Sudas. It happens on the eastern banks of Parushni river (Ravi). Yamuna came to the aid of Sudas and destroyed formation of invading confederacy (RV 7.18.17) again shows the Saraswati based stronghold (since geologically, Sutlej and Yamuna were tributaries of Saraswati, before some tectonic activity changed their course).

Of course, it is for scholars to decide, however based on the evidence above, I feel that Saraswati based composition of early stages of Rigveda, followed up by expansion in both the directions and southwards (towards and beyond Narmada) explains things in better manner..

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Pranav » 01 May 2010 05:39

Thanks for the interesting reply ... perhaps you could cross-post it on the History and Archeology thread: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5248

Atri wrote:Quite possible. However a reading of Rigveda shows us that any river which is mentioned highest number of times in Rigveda and praised the most is neither Sindhu, nor Ganga.. It is Saraswati. This drastically reduces the possibility that the composition of bulk of Rigveda (at least) was in Gangetic valley. This suggests that the core was Saraswati basin (modern Rajasthan) from where the Vedics expanded in both directions. Ganga comes in Nadi-stuti sukta (10th mandala of Rigveda).

Paper by Nicholas Kazanas - http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indology/RPSSC.pdf

This suggests that Vedic culture originated in Saraswati basin prior to IVC. The pastoral aryans of Saraswati basin started dwelling in cities (found in remains of SSC - Sindhu-Saraswati civilization).

In this paper, he shows that horse was known to IVC - http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/pdf/en/indo ... Debate.pdf


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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby kittoo » 01 May 2010 08:15

I think we are in for some shock this census. I was just playing with Wolfram Alpha and found out that Hinduism now counts for only 74% of population of India!!! Islam is at 12.2 and Christianity at 6.2.
So from 2001, Hinduism shrunk 6-7%!!!!!

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby naren » 01 May 2010 09:15

kittoo wrote:I think we are in for some shock this census. I was just playing with Wolfram Alpha and found out that Hinduism now counts for only 74% of population of India!!! Islam is at 12.2 and Christianity at 6.2.
So from 2001, Hinduism shrunk 6-7%!!!!!


Thats very interesting. Few months back, I stumbled upon this link and they said the same thing. (Ironically, the site is called persecution.org :roll: ). Note the date, May 21, 2004 :shock:

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/co ... ntrycode=3

With a Muslim president, Sikh prime minister and a Christian head of the governing parliamentary party, the government committed to a policy of tolerance and maintaining a highly diverse society. Yet, the Hindu militant and extremist groups with the support of the BJP at the government level, continue to attack Christian minorities in many states. The anti-conversion bills passed so far make it illegal for people to convert from one faith to another without registering their conversion with the authorities and proving no coercion was involved. Anyone accused of participating in forced conversion can face a 3 year prison sentence. {What an evil "persecuting" law :roll: } Although the Christian population is on the rise and stands at 6% of the country's total population, the government has not released this as an official figure in fear of Hindu extremist reactions.


Christian missionaries are having a field day in India. What worries have they got when all the concerns are safely directed against its terrorist twin brother.

We must act before become like another South Korea. I met a Christian SoKo guy and he was a Buddhist before. I asked him why he gave up Buddhism. He told me "Buddha Himself said that He cannot rescue me. Then I asked the question who could and found Jesus Christ to be the answer" :-?

Not that I'm against Christianity, but the aggressive corporate motivated missionarism is bad for everybody, including Christianity itself.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 01 May 2010 17:17

naren wrote
Not that I'm against Christianity, but the aggressive corporate motivated missionarism is bad for everybody, including Christianity itself.

Don't want to take this discussion here very far, but the bolded part is the real problem. If you pose a similar question to one of these "faith" members, they will never ever say something in parallel to what I have bolded. You will never hear "Not that I am against Hinduism" - because these faiths have everything to do with being against "Hinduism". Because Hinduism doesn't teach this attitude in its followers for a long time now - it does not appear as having anything to cherish and hold on to in the face of constant denigration and abuse. Tolerance has limits, and those limits have to be drawn within each individual. No regime, media and party can dictate that very individual process and decision. Look inside into yourselves and you will see where the real weakness is.

By the way, the process can be reversed. And the first step towards this very strategic move for Indians can be taken individually. If the non-proselytizers consolidate and simplify (they basically have to rediscover rather than invent) their system - providing an uniform and homogeneous identity of pride for every member, that immense unity and strength will stop these essentially imperialist tools from progressing any further. Islamism, Christianism of the new missionaries and Communism are all prosleytizing imperialist tools of the Mediterranean. They have to be understood clearly as such and firmly rejected. We have every reason to be against "them" in their imperialist form. And we should mark those who still follow them or are sympathetic to them as not belonging to India and ourselves. They are not us.

Edited two terms as an afterthought - as I do hope to chnage the root philosphies into something more acceptable for co-existence , but I have no hope for the active forms. Still I should distinguish between the two phases.
Last edited by brihaspati on 01 May 2010 19:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby kittoo » 01 May 2010 18:08

brihaspati wrote:
naren wrote
Not that I'm against Christianity, but the aggressive corporate motivated missionarism is bad for everybody, including Christianity itself.

Don't want to take this discussion here very far, but the bolded part is the real problem. If you pose a similar question to one of these "faith" members, they will never ever say something in parallel to what I have bolded. You will never hear "Not that I am against Hinduism" - because these faiths have everything to do with being against "Hinduism". Because Hinduism doesn't teach this attitude in its followers for a long time now - it does not appear as having anything to cherish and hold on to in the face of constant denigration and abuse. Tolerance has limits, and those limits have to be drawn within each individual. No regime, media and party can dictate that very individual process and decision. Look inside into yourselves and you will see where the real weakness is.

By the way, the process can be reversed. And the first step towards this very strategic move for Indians can be taken individually. If the non-proselytizers consolidate and simplify (they basically have to rediscover rather than invent) their system - providing an uniform and homogeneous identity of pride for every member, that immense unity and strength will stop these essentially imperialist tools from progressing any further. Islam, Christianity of the new missionaries and Communism are all prosleytizing imperialist tools of the Mediterranean. They have to be understood clearly as such and firmly rejected. We have every reason to be against "them" in their imperialist form. And we should mark those who still follow them or are sympathetic to them as not belonging to India and ourselves. They are not us.


A brilliant post and I completely agree. We have no obligation to carry this burden of proving that we are not against them. They are a threat to us, our culture and they are not us. There is no reason why we should not protest them. I am quite horrified with this 6% decrease in followers of Hinduism. If this goes on for mere 3-4 decades more, we will become a mere 50%? Then what? Another partition?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

Postby kittoo » 01 May 2010 18:21

Altair wrote:CBMs to strengthen cross-LoC trade approved: India
Pillai said the Defence Ministry had been asked to procure and install full-body truck scanners to facilitate checking at checkposts. The plan also involves upgrading infrastructure at the two trading centres at Salamabad in Uri along the Sringar-Muzaffaraabd road and Chakan da Bagh in Jammu region along the Poonch-Rawlakot road.

The Telecommunication Ministry had also ordered permitting international calls from Indian-held Kashmir to Pakistan after a hiatus of 20 years.


It is a historical fact that many kingdoms in India fell because of traitors within. This CBMs are a Trojan horse. Only this time,MMS is playing the character of Sinon. This will not end until our sisters and daughters are raped and converted, Indian cities burnt to ground. We have not learnt any lessons. have we?
How are we letting this government surrender our freedom to these barbarians? Whats the bargain for MMS? A Noble Prize?


This is slightly OT so better discussed in future scenario thread but I will post one reply here anyway.
Its been only about 60 years since we became independent. Its not that long, hardly as long as reign of Aurangzeb. India has suffered because of traitors past hundreds of years and I see no reason why it would change. There are still people backstabbing each other and country for selfish reasons, and it will go on. If a partition and culling of about a million couldnt wake us up, there is nothing that will. In search of elusive peace with Pak or for other personal reasons, nothing concrete, starting from very basic level, will ever be done. I imagine we will die still seeing an Indic India, but there will be a time when it will be no more. It might be like water that assimilates, but Islam is oil, and there is a limit till which it can stay alive while the number of followers of RoP increase. Just saw today that Hindus are now only 74% in India. A decrease of about 6% within a decade! I know there are a myriad factors but extrapolate it to 6-7 decades. Where are we?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

Postby sum » 01 May 2010 18:27

Might be OT but:
Just saw today that Hindus are now only 74% in India. A decrease of about 6% within a decade! I know there are a myriad factors but extrapolate it to 6-7 decades. Where are we?

Could you please provide a link?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

Postby kittoo » 01 May 2010 18:33

sum wrote:Might be OT but:
Just saw today that Hindus are now only 74% in India. A decrease of about 6% within a decade! I know there are a myriad factors but extrapolate it to 6-7 decades. Where are we?

Could you please provide a link?


Wolfram Alpha-

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby RoyG » 01 May 2010 19:52

I find the pie chart quite interesting. Aren't Muslims supposed to make up at least 15% of the population? If so, have they also witnessed a decrease? I have many Muslim and Christian Indian friends and funny thing is they're not religious at all. They all smoke marijuana, drink, eat pork, etc. It's actually a struggle for their parents to keep them in line. Many of them have become agnostic and even go to Hindu cultural and religious events. What I've noticed is that the abrahamic faiths spread fast but they die fast as well with every subsequent generation. I also wonder if the economic collapse of the West is going to slow down proselytization and whether the secularization of the Indian State has acted as a catalyst for their spread. The United States technically isn't secular because the process of religious labeling and affording rights based on those labels is actually quite limited at the moment. If converting to Christianity or Islam wont get you seats in a school, extra monetary aid from the state, etc wouldn't there be drastically less incentive to convert? I feel like the moment the state tries to secularize itself religious groups tend to become more assertive in imposing their social and political frameworks upon others. When secularism (active tolerance) is absent, I've noticed that religious syncretism becomes far more prevalent and so does mutual respect.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 01 May 2010 20:07

True. According to Thaparites, syncretic tendencies were strong when the state was not secular. The "Hindu" rulers and regime sof pre-Islamic India were supposed to have actively and kindly welcomed totally peaceful proselytizers of Islam and various syncretic forms developed. Similarly the same thing happened under Islamic rulers according to their claims. If syncretism could proceed under Hindu regimes who also actively promoted/maintained "Hinduism", and Islamic states also promoted syncretism - why the need for a "secular" regime to encourage "co-existence" or syncretism! In fact a non-secular Hindu regime could accelerate teh rate of "syncretism" according to the natural extension of the Thaparite logic.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby brihaspati » 01 May 2010 20:13

http://www.intelligencequarterly.com/2010/04/isi-still-backs-afghan-taliban-us/
ISI still backs Afghan Taliban :US
April 13th, 2010 in Central Asia / Intelligence / Military / Terrorism

US officials think that “Pakistan continues to pursue a hedging strategy in seeking to maintain relationships with an array of entities – including the US and Afghan governments, as well as insurgent networks – struggling to shape the outcome in Afghanistan, even as it aggressively battles the Pakistani branch of the Taliban.”

On the other hand Pakistani intelligence officials told that ISI was committed to dismantling insurgent groups and denied that any Taliban operatives had been released after being captured. The ISI wants “to be able to resort to the hard-power option of supporting groups that can take Kabul” if the US suddenly leaves, a US military adviser was cited as saying.

The daily said US officials concur that the collaboration between the CIA and the ISI has improved substantially, but say they see ongoing signs that some ISI operatives are providing sanctuary and other assistance to factions of the Taliban when their CIA counterparts are not around. CIA officials, according to the Post, think that the ISI’s connection to the Taliban is active. But “it’s not clear how high that goes or who knows about it,” a US counterterrorism official was quoted as saying. “The Pakistanis did a sharp change of policy after 9/11, and it’s not certain everybody got the memo – or read it if they did.”


As the collaboration increases - the lack of "clarity" as to what ISI/Pak/"how-high" thinks - also increases. Are the US officials completely certain that everybody on their own side "git the memo-or read it if they did"? Maybe these officials themselves did notget the real memo! :-o

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby sum » 01 May 2010 21:28

RoyG wrote:I find the pie chart quite interesting. Aren't Muslims supposed to make up at least 15% of the population? If so, have they also witnessed a decrease? I have many Muslim and Christian Indian friends and funny thing is they're not religious at all. They all smoke marijuana, drink, eat pork, etc. It's actually a struggle for their parents to keep them in line. Many of them have become agnostic and even go to Hindu cultural and religious events. What I've noticed is that the abrahamic faiths spread fast but they die fast as well with every subsequent generation. I also wonder if the economic collapse of the West is going to slow down proselytization and whether the secularization of the Indian State has acted as a catalyst for their spread. The United States technically isn't secular because the process of religious labeling and affording rights based on those labels is actually quite limited at the moment. If converting to Christianity or Islam wont get you seats in a school, extra monetary aid from the state, etc wouldn't there be drastically less incentive to convert? I feel like the moment the state tries to secularize itself religious groups tend to become more assertive in imposing their social and political frameworks upon others. When secularism (active tolerance) is absent, I've noticed that religious syncretism becomes far more prevalent and so does mutual respect.

If hindu % decreased by ~8% and Ims remained the same, who increased so much to take up the space?

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby RoyG » 01 May 2010 22:22

brihaspati wrote:True. According to Thaparites, syncretic tendencies were strong when the state was not secular. The "Hindu" rulers and regime sof pre-Islamic India were supposed to have actively and kindly welcomed totally peaceful proselytizers of Islam and various syncretic forms developed. Similarly the same thing happened under Islamic rulers according to their claims. If syncretism could proceed under Hindu regimes who also actively promoted/maintained "Hinduism", and Islamic states also promoted syncretism - why the need for a "secular" regime to encourage "co-existence" or syncretism! In fact a non-secular Hindu regime could accelerate teh rate of "syncretism" according to the natural extension of the Thaparite logic.


Yeah I agree with you. I feel that secularism has now taken a dual meaning. When I was growing up secularism always meant plurality or plural state. So I always went around saying boasting that I'm secular and that all countries should be secular. And why not? Plurality is certainly a good thing. But when I started doing more research into secularism I found out plurality really isn't the goal of secularism at all. Secularism as an overarching political framework seeks to mediate relations between religious groups through labeling and affording rights therefore negating plurality/free will to a large extent at the individual level. This form of active tolerance I feel creates more problems than solutions. Muslims have a "right" to free Haj pilgrimage, Hindu's don't have a "right" to keep multiple wives, etc. The problem that secularists are facing today in India is that you can keep cutting society (Shia, Sunni, Ismaili, Hindu, Jain, Sikh, Shiviite, Christian, Baptist, Lutheran, all the castes etc etc) until you come to a point where the balancing becomes so vast and complex that they will have no choice but to consider the individual as the sovereign and not the secular state. So in a sense they will come to the realization that maybe those pre islamic/victorian social and political thinkers of the subcontinent weren't idiots after all!

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby kittoo » 01 May 2010 23:04

sum wrote:If hindu % decreased by ~8% and Ims remained the same, who increased so much to take up the space?


Christians seem to have increased a healthy 3-4%. About 3% is not accounted.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Tejas.P » 01 May 2010 23:15

An interesting article I found from the Delhi-based think-thank, Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS). The author calls for a complete change in the strategy book on the Naxalite menace.
"India needs new manual on Naxals" by Rohit Singh

The Naxal threat has grown steadily but subtly, and unchecked by commensurate counter-action its severity now surpasses the capabilities of the current strategy, which does not have all stakeholders on board. The state cannot succeed simply by trying harder: it must now adopt a fundamentally new approach. An insurgency as long-drawn as the Naxal one cannot be solved by merely pushing in more paramilitary forces nor by using “kinetic forces” of the Army alone for it is a war hijacked by vicious anti-state forces exploiting the weakness of state institutions, and the malign actions of power — brokers, widespread corruption and abuse of power by various vested interests — give people little reason to support their government and, instead, provide cannon fodder to Naxal “elites”, “intellectuals” and sympathisers to drive deeper wedges between the aggrieved population and the state. Meaningless security actions hurt the people, deprived as it is because of lack of economic opportunity.

“Don’t mess with our control of the interior of the country” is the strategic message coming out of the Dantewada massacre. For a state that aspires to become a power and to a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, its “refusing-to-develop-country status” (85.7 per cent of its people live on less then $2.50 per day) is primarily owed to huge swathes of land out of the reach of state governance.

In examining why so many counter-insurgencies by powerful militaries failed against weaker “enemies”, noted military historian Martin Van Creveld advised that the “first and absolutely indispensable thing to do is to throw overboard 99 per cent of the literature” on the subject because most of it was written by the losing side.

The core of the strategy now advocated is the fight for the population which both the opposing forces are vying for, and therein lies the contradiction. Lethal or kinetic use of force is highly counter-productive and will mean a failed strategy. Non-application of forces, disjointed, indecisive action will prolong the insurgency, bringing more areas under Naxal parallel control (Naxal extortion on an all-India basis is Rs 1,600 crores, annually).

The most significant truth emerging out of Dantewada is that the Naxals have graduated from a guerrilla force to a “People’s Army”, having morphed into battalions, companies, platoons, intelligence and logistics departments with indigenous weapon- and improvised explosive device (IED)-manufacturing capacity. Having upgraded their mobile warfare capacities, they are gravitating to their next level of “positional warfare”, which is when they will attempt to capture territory, having already carved out “safe sanctuaries”.

The strategy is simple: with the Army in the lead to clear Naxalite strongholds/safe havens in and around the vicinity of remote population centres, the paramilitary and police follows in its wake to hold (areas cleared) and then deny access to Naxals to population centres. Then a civil administration is needed to build infrastructure, developmental projects, poverty alleviation programmes. Before launching operations in a given area, let the “enemy” know you are coming, such that the Naxals have the opportunity to either flee or fight. If they choose the latter they will concentrate more numbers to counter the offensive, inviting decimation, a counter-insurgent’s delight. If they flee, which most likely they will if the Army leads, they are separated from the population from which they feed. This will make them desperate and they will coerce the population for various needs, thus making their movement unpopular, slowly but surely. Admittedly, this will be a slow process, but a few years will be a drop in the ocean of almost 40 years of insurgency.

This strategy aims at providing enough things (security forces) in enough places (strongholds) for enough time (so as to frustrate the Naxal capacity to fight for their “sea”, i.e., the population). A caveat, however: clear only those areas for which paramilitary forces are available to hold. In the order of priority, address key economic zones (as in Jharkhand coal fields) and population centres, including areas around them, choking off finances. For logistics, any insurgent is dependent on the population.

A constant media flow of information on the course of “clearing operations” will take away the propaganda tool from the Naxal activists and sympathisers who can constantly be reminded that the choice to fight or flee has already been given to the Naxal. The biggest danger this operation will face is the IED threat for which huge Army resources will have to be pooled, as was done in the operation in Nowzad, Afghanistan.

The strategy of letting the “enemy” know that you are coming will raise many an eyebrow, but then let it be remembered that 99 per cent of counter-insurgencies have failed because of the failure to resort to “out-of-the-box” thinking.

The use of the Army will again raise a hornet’s nest. But this is a novel way of using it, and only for “clearing operations”. When the paramilitary imbibe the nuances of such operations by on-the-job training, the use of the Army may be dispensed with for subsequent phases. A beginning has to be made with success. The Army is the way to begin to do it.

For once, India needs to act soon and act decisively. Increasingly, Naxals are colluding with jihadi elements. Additionally, a lot of poor people’s lives are dependent on early action. An iron fist in a velvet glove, rather than kinetic force which feeds the insurgency, is the answer.


The author is a research associate at CLAWS, the Centre For Land Warfare Studies, Delhi

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby svinayak » 01 May 2010 23:16

RoyG wrote: But when I started doing more research into secularism I found out plurality really isn't the goal of secularism at all. Secularism as an overarching political framework seeks to mediate relations between religious groups through labeling and affording rights therefore negating plurality/free will to a large extent at the individual level. This form of active tolerance I feel creates more problems than solutions. Muslims have a "right" to free Haj pilgrimage, Hindu's don't have a "right" to keep multiple wives, etc. The problem that secularists are facing today in India is that you can keep cutting society (Shia, Sunni, Ismaili, Hindu, Jain, Sikh, Shiviite, Christian, Baptist, Lutheran, all the castes etc etc) until you come to a point where the balancing becomes so vast and complex that they will have no choice but to consider the individual as the sovereign and not the secular state. So in a sense they will come to the realization that maybe those pre islamic/victorian social and political thinkers of the subcontinent weren't idiots after all!

What you are describing is the artifical construct of societies in the west and muslim world which historically never had tolerance and multiculturism.
India was already past them. The new generation of the Indian leftist are trying to create an image based on the western concept without looking at the historical experience of Indians.

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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Postby Carl_T » 01 May 2010 23:27

brihaspati wrote:True. According to Thaparites, syncretic tendencies were strong when the state was not secular. The "Hindu" rulers and regime sof pre-Islamic India were supposed to have actively and kindly welcomed totally peaceful proselytizers of Islam and various syncretic forms developed. Similarly the same thing happened under Islamic rulers according to their claims. If syncretism could proceed under Hindu regimes who also actively promoted/maintained "Hinduism", and Islamic states also promoted syncretism - why the need for a "secular" regime to encourage "co-existence" or syncretism! In fact a non-secular Hindu regime could accelerate teh rate of "syncretism" according to the natural extension of the Thaparite logic.

If we fix and label the identity of "Hindu" to pre-Islamic Indian rulers, the key point is in pre-Islamic India did rulers identify their regimes as specifically "Hindu"? Is a regime run by Hindus a Hindu regime?? Your labeling of "Hindu rulers and regime of pre-Islamic..." and a "non-secular Hindu regime" are quite inconsistent.



Now hypothetically, to go OT, if we have an instance of a regime declaring itself as a "Hindu regime", what was the particular connotation of the word "Hindu" in pre-Islamic or even early-Islamic India? As you know "Hindi" was a label of people in general from Al Hind! (Incidentally I have met Arabs named Hindi although I don't know if it means the same)...but that is another tangent nonetheless!
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