India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

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Bart S
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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Bart S » 24 Feb 2018 17:18

panduranghari wrote:
manju wrote:
mmm. sarai!! I have a colleague By name sarai is amrika, to be specific, land of polygamy. This guy is very pro AAP and had mentioned about his links to the sardarjis who hold high positions in kanada...

need to milk some info about khalistan connection next time.. :shock:


I know one in UQ and he too is hardcore Aaptard.


Wasn't the AAP campaign for the Punjab state elections almost totally Khalistani funded and run? They got a resounding slap and had to go back to lick their wounds, but the threat should not be ignored.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Bart S » 24 Feb 2018 17:18

srin wrote:http://www.livemint.com/Politics/zDYqpj9h7ry3LN2ql61HsM/Centres-prod-sets-stage-for-Amarinder-SinghJustin-Trudeau.html
Given this acrimonious history, Trudeau didn’t include the Punjab chief minister in his schedule—Trudeau is due in Amritsar on Wednesday—two people familiar with the development said. The Canadian leader, mindful of the large Sikh immigrant population in his country, was conscious of the symbolism of a visit to the Golden Temple.

That’s when India’s foreign ministry stepped in, said the same two people cited above, requesting anonymity.

In unambiguous terms it told their Canadian counterparts that if Trudeau skipped the mandatory meeting with the CM, then India would withdraw permission for the PM to travel to Punjab.

“The visiting prime minister could choose to visit other states of India but not Punjab if he does not want to meet the chief minister, was the gist of what was conveyed,” one of them said.

For once, I'm glad of our babus.



This is exactly what I had suggested earlier in the thread and glad that the govt was thinking along similar lines.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2018 18:06

pankajs wrote:https://globalnews.ca/news/4044543/david-akin-analysis-justin-trudeaus-bengal-bungle/
ANALYSIS: How Justin Trudeau’s India trip went from bad to ‘Bengal Bungle’
And then “worse” turned to “farce” when the PMO, in frantic damage control, trotted out one of the most senior members of the civil service, someone who is one of the handful of bureaucrats privy to literally all the secrets of our national security agencies.

After insisting that any journalist who wanted to listen to what this individual had to say could not name this person, the government tasked the bureaucrat with peddling what must be one of the most bizarre conspiracy theories ever advanced by a Canadian government: That Jaspal Atwal, the terrorist invited by the Liberals to Mumbai, may have been planted there by the Indian government or maybe by Indian security agencies or perhaps by factions in the Indian government. Whatever that means.
Candice Malcolm Verified account @CandiceMalcolm 6h6 hours ago

I just filed an Access to Information request for the schedule of Daniel Jean, Justin Trudeau's National Security Advisor, for the past week. I typically don't write about my process for gathering stories - but Trudeau government's spin to media has been absolutely beyond pale.

Connect the dots and my bet is that this Daniel Jean, the Canadian NSA, is the guy behind the "Indian hand" conspiracy theory.

For more on our conspiracy theorist > http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/ ... ty-advisor
Trudeau's pick for security adviser shows focus on foreign affairs expertise

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Vips » 24 Feb 2018 18:45

pankajs wrote:https://globalnews.ca/news/4044543/david-akin-analysis-justin-trudeaus-bengal-bungle/
ANALYSIS: How Justin Trudeau’s India trip went from bad to ‘Bengal Bungle’

Prime Minister Trudeau's India trip is his first foreign trip that's generated negative international headlines. And with the opposition ready to pounce next week, Liberal insiders tell Chief Political Correspondent David Akin they're frustrated and they'll want a full accounting of what happened.

Had it just been the snickering from the usual suspects about his clothes, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau likely would have ended his week in India with little political damage and possibly even a bump in popularity in Canada’s large Indian diaspora.

But some bad press turned worse, much worse, when it emerged that a man convicted of what a Canadian judge called “an act of terrorism” — an attempt in 1986 to assassinate an Indian politician visiting Vancouver Island — showed up at a Trudeau event in Mumbai, invited there by a B.C. Liberal MP.

And then “worse” turned to “farce” when the PMO, in frantic damage control, trotted out one of the most senior members of the civil service, someone who is one of the handful of bureaucrats privy to literally all the secrets of our national security agencies.

After insisting that any journalist who wanted to listen to what this individual had to say could not name this person, the government tasked the bureaucrat with peddling what must be one of the most bizarre conspiracy theories ever advanced by a Canadian government: That Jaspal Atwal, the terrorist invited by the Liberals to Mumbai, may have been planted there by the Indian government or maybe by Indian security agencies or perhaps by factions in the Indian government. Whatever that means.

In other words, it was the Indian government who had successfully set out to make their guest, the Canadian prime minister, look like a fool when it came to his position on Sikh extremism.

And this was the spin Trudeau’s government was offering up while Trudeau himself was still in India, hours before he was to meet Narendra Modi, the prime minister of the government that Canada’s “senior government official” thinks was trying to show up Canada’s PM.

This individual, in describing the theory, couched every possibility with words like “maybe” and “possibly,” yet offered no proof or evidence of any allegation and did all of this from behind the cloak of anonymity.

Global News, like most other news organizations accredited to Parliament Hill, knows who this individual is that made these allegations, and it is only out of respect for the position this individual holds that one is forced to at least take the allegation seriously if only for long enough to dismiss it as folly.

Because, among other things, in order to have this theory work — to accept the idea that some third party in India arranged Atwal to be present at the PM’s Mumbai event — one has to accept the idea that Randeep Sarai, the member of Parliament for Surrey Centre, was in on the scam.

Sarai has refused to answer questions about his role in this affair but we do know that Atwal was on the invitation list for two Mumbai events at Sarai’s request. So, to come back to our conspiracy theory, Indian agents looking to show up Trudeau had to somehow convince Sarai to be their willing stooge and issue the invitations to Atwal.

Secondly, we must believe that Sarai happily took it upon himself to recommend Atwal for an invitation with no clue about his background, despite articles in the Vancouver Sun as recently as 2012 about Atwal’s criminal connections and Liberal background — articles that forced other Liberals to resign their positions with local constituency associations.

That Sarai, a lawyer and real estate developer, who described himself prior to his election as active in electoral politics “at all levels” and who was called upon by local media outlets in Surrey to talk about regional politics, did not ever run into Atwal is impossible to accept.

And in any event, what would India have possibly gained using Atwal to embarrass Trudeau?

Stephanie Carvin, a national security analyst and professor at Carleton University, argued on Twitter that a bad state visit for Trudeau does India just as much harm as it might do to Canada’s prime minister.

<snip>

No means, no motive. Sorry, but our “senior government official” should have simply explained what role Canadian national security agencies had in vetting Atwal prior to his attendance at the Mumbai events. (The answer was: None.)

And so, there was Trudeau, in his final press conference of the week in New Delhi, hours after meeting Modi, taking questions about why he believes his hosts tried to make him look bad.

It’s hard to imagine a bigger Bengal bungle
.


The presence of large number of Pukis in Canada is showing its results. Pukis when confronted with facts would lie and even distort historical facts to show they did no wrong and that it is the other party to blame and they are only victims who have been wronged. Same way this pappu led government is going from one diplomatic disaster to another in trying to come up with bizzare conspiracy theories and not not own up to its mistakes.

How long before Canada is out of G20 and in the middle size economies ? In the meanwhile may it be infested by more and more Pukis ( under the annual immigration and chain family sponsorship program).

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 24 Feb 2018 19:09

Rogue Indian political elements may be trying to make Canada look weak on Sikh extremism: source


Candice MalcolmVerified account@CandiceMalcolm
Feb 22

How about this? These must be some pretty dedicated and skillful rogue operatives.

Image




Candice MalcolmVerified account@CandiceMalcolm
Feb 22

Did rogue Indian operatives "orchestrate" this too?

Image

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Falijee » 24 Feb 2018 19:27

Atwal Fiasco . Canadian Daily Lays Blame On PMO And Liberal Party Which Is Full Of Khalistani Supporters !

Andrew Coyne: L’affaire Atwal: the novelty is only that they did it on Indian soil

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby surinder » 24 Feb 2018 22:11

Regarding the Trudeau visit fiasco:

+ The scale of how humiliating and disastrous the trip is unprecedented in Indian foreign trips. One would be hard-pressed to provide a comparable example.

+ Trudeau was given the cold shoulder and snub because of his closeness and fluency with the Sikhs. The GOI institutions would not let that pass. Modi probably shares his disdain for the Sikhs.

+ This episode brings to light just how deeply the Government of India and its institutions are instinctively anti-Sikh and nothing has really changed since the 1980s. The snubs and the cold shoulder given to Trudeau is not for the defense of India the nation, but instead it is the institutionalized government of India which hasn't abandoned its disdain for the Sikhs.

+ This also shows that the GOI has no intention of ever coming clean on its role in precipitating the 1980s Punjab crisis nor are they going to give justing to the 5000+ Sikhs killed in GOI and Congress sponsored pogrom in Delhi, Bokaro, Kanpur, and other places. It would be better for Sikhs to forget that justice is even likely.

+ Humiliating foreign state heads as a way negotiating and executing foreign policy is not a norm. The only country that practices this effectively is China; and one most civilized countries do not like this way of dealings find it rightly repulsive. While host nations can/should make their point forcefully and assertively, but not by making a public spectacle of heaping humiliations on visiting heads of state and rubbing their face in this fashion. If that is how they feel, why have the visit in the first place?

+ The cold shoulder for Trudeau's crimes are to be contrasted with the importance and warm welcome afforded to visits of Pakistani PMs, Presidents (both elected and those who seized power). Contrast that with the attention and respect given to Musharraff after Kargil, or Zia or Bhutto or Sharif. Not one of them left India getting humiliated. Contrast this with the foot licking that India gives when Chinese premier visits, where we gladly subvert our own constitution to shut down all Tibet related protests for even their Olympic torch. How much Indian land does Canada occupy and compare that with POK and Aksai Chin occupations.

+ Modi has had no problem making a visit to Pakistan, attend Sharif's family wedding, sending tweets on good wishes to Sharif and Pakistan. All this for a terrorist nation that has openly talked of destroying all that is India, it has nukes ready to destroy India, it is sitting on Indian land, it has a lot of Indian blood on its hand and regularly spills more. Indian and Modi's slavishness to Pakistan be contrasted with attitude towards Canada. Compare the actual crimes of Trudeau's Canada with that of Pakistan!

+ Those who run foreign policy should realize that doling out such humiliations has implications beyond simply one visit. Such treatments send out unintended messages, but internally and externally.

+ There was hope that BJP would eventually transform the GOI institutional thinking and move it from the Colonial-inspired Congress attitudes to nationalistic pride and national strength. That faith is probably misplaced--BJP has become more Congressized instead.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby VKumar » 24 Feb 2018 22:20

surinder wrote:Regarding the Trudeau visit fiasco:

+ The scale of how humiliating and disastrous the trip is unprecedented in Indian foreign trips. One would be hard-pressed to provide a comparable example.

+ Trudeau was given the cold shoulder and snub because of his closeness and fluency with the Sikhs. The GOI institutions would not let that pass. Modi probably shares his disdain for the Sikhs.

+ This episode brings to light just how deeply the Government of India and its institutions are instinctively anti-Sikh and nothing has really changed since the 1980s. The snubs and the cold shoulder given to Trudeau is not for the defense of India the nation, but instead it is the institutionalized government of India which hasn't abandoned its disdain for the Sikhs.

+ This also shows that the GOI has no intention of ever coming clean on its role in precipitating the 1980s Punjab crisis nor are they going to give justing to the 5000+ Sikhs killed in GOI and Congress sponsored pogrom in Delhi, Bokaro, Kanpur, and other places. It would be better for Sikhs to forget that justice is even likely.

+ Humiliating foreign state heads as a way negotiating and executing foreign policy is not a norm. The only country that practices this effectively is China; and one most civilized countries do not like this way of dealings find it rightly repulsive. While host nations can/should make their point forcefully and assertively, but not by making a public spectacle of heaping humiliations on visiting heads of state and rubbing their face in this fashion. If that is how they feel, why have the visit in the first place?

+ The cold shoulder for Trudeau's crimes are to be contrasted with the importance and warm welcome afforded to visits of Pakistani PMs, Presidents (both elected and those who seized power). Contrast that with the attention and respect given to Musharraff after Kargil, or Zia or Bhutto or Sharif. Not one of them left India getting humiliated. Contrast this with the foot licking that India gives when Chinese premier visits, where we gladly subvert our own constitution to shut down all Tibet related protests for even their Olympic torch. How much Indian land does Canada occupy and compare that with POK and Aksai Chin occupations.

+ Modi has had no problem making a visit to Pakistan, attend Sharif's family wedding, sending tweets on good wishes to Sharif and Pakistan. All this for a terrorist nation that has openly talked of destroying all that is India, it has nukes ready to destroy India, it is sitting on Indian land, it has a lot of Indian blood on its hand and regularly spills more. Indian and Modi's slavishness to Pakistan be contrasted with attitude towards Canada. Compare the actual crimes of Trudeau's Canada with that of Pakistan!

+ Those who run foreign policy should realize that doling out such humiliations has implications beyond simply one visit. Such treatments send out unintended messages, but internally and externally.

+ There was hope that BJP would eventually transform the GOI institutional thinking and move it from the Colonial-inspired Congress attitudes to nationalistic pride and national strength. That faith is probably misplaced--BJP has become more Congressized instead.


:mrgreen: :rotfl:

That's how to treat these people. Reminds me of the saying " the only place Khalistan exists is in their heads"

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2018 22:29

Trudeau was given the cold shoulder and snub bare minimum protocol because of his closeness and fluency with the Sikhs to khalistanis. The photo of his hobnobbing with the radicals are there for all to see all dug up by Canadian media. BTW, this khalistanis, Atwal chap was called a *terrorist* by a Canadian court. No GOI in the picture anywhere and much before Modi was in the picture.

khalistanis are a minuscule portion of the Sikhs and should not be equated and no one here has confused the two as far as I can remember in the current context.

Trudeau deserved to be kicked.

BTW, I read similar talking point when I was reading Candice Malcom's timeline by an Oberoi chap. People are free to have their own spin but no spin or talking point can counter the photos of Trudeau dug up by *Canadian* media. This Oberoi chap had many other CT all of which can be demolished.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 24 Feb 2018 22:36

Surinder-ji, seriously, what kind of nonsense is that? Why would GoI as an institution or Modi as a person have "disdain for the Sikhs"? It's quite to the contrary, actually. Ask Capt Amarinder Singh.

Also, do you think it is okay for a guest to openly hobnob with people inimical the state? I am referring to the khalistanis, not Sikhs in general. GoI too has been quite clear about that distinction as well. So I am not sure why you are conflating both?

Also, how would you suggest GoI forcefully make the point in any other way?

Sorry, but your post sounds like a mix of a certain kind of propaganda pushed in by elements from across the border, coupled with a "how dare a brown guy stand up to a white milord"?

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 24 Feb 2018 22:59

Additionally,

1. This Oberoi chap speculated that this so called *snub* would only help Trudeau get more Sikh vote. So Trudeau got what he came for, perhaps not exactly the way he wanted it.
2. Capt. Amrinder Singh was elected by Sikhs and Hindus of Punjab as against AAP that had the backing of the khalistanis. So he has the mandate to speak against the khalistanis as far as I am concerned.
3. 1984 justice remains a sore point is understandable but that does not excuse Trudeau hobnobbing with a khalistani.

BTW,
Hon Deepak Obhrai PC Verified account @deepakobhrai 13h13 hours ago [Member of Parliament for Calgary Forest Lawn, Dean of the Conservative Caucus, and former #cpcldr Candidate]
Replying to @CandiceMalcolm @anthonyfurey

This is true. I can vouch that when Canadians name are sent on PM or GG visit most or all receive visa as good will jesture


And lastly there is the Outlook magazine that no one that I know calls a BJP magazine. This Magazine had recently carried a major cover story
Image
And what did they get in return
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/st ... -ov/308666
'Liberal' Canadian PMO Bars Outlook From High Commission’s Reception For Trudeau Over Khalistan Coverage
Outlook, in its February 12, 2018 issue, with a cover "Khalistan-II- Made in Canada" had carried seven articles in a package questioning Canadian cabinet's proximity and appeasement policies towards the Sikh radicals

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby anupmisra » 24 Feb 2018 23:17

I wonder what outfit boy PM will wear if he visits an African nation?

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Feb 2018 00:26

I think that screed belongs in the ISSF hand book of persecution fantasies. The author seems to be approaching extreme old age and certainly a good candidate for this youth federation of grey beards.

I understand the Modi is pressing Ontario to next pass a resolution on the genocide of Hindus by Sikh holy men.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Feb 2018 00:36

sanjaykumar wrote:I think that screed belongs in the ISSF hand book of persecution fantasies. The author seems to be approaching extreme old age and certainly a good candidate for this youth federation of grey beards.

I understand that Modi is pressing Ontario to next pass a resolution on the genocide of Hindus by Sikh holy men.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby abhik » 25 Feb 2018 00:36

anupmisra wrote:I wonder what outfit boy PM will wear if he visits an African nation?

I myself was wondering about Saudi Arabia. :rotfl:

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Feb 2018 00:45

Okay okay. He embarrassed me as a Canadian and as an Indian. :oops:

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 25 Feb 2018 00:47

All that GOI/Modi did was gave Trudeau the basic protocol and kept silent.

The rest of the spectacle was put up the Canadians themselves. How can Modi be blamed for it?

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 25 Feb 2018 01:02

Surinder ji

The GoI went out of its way to protect the honour of the CM of Punjab, who happens to be a Sikh, and who happens to belong to the opposition party. Amarinder gave the BJP a drubbing in the Punjab polls not too long ago, and yet they upheld his honour vis-à-vis Trudeau. Those peddling Sikh grievance should stop and think about that.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Rudradev » 25 Feb 2018 01:18

surinder wrote:Regarding the Trudeau visit fiasco:

+ The scale of how humiliating and disastrous the trip is unprecedented in Indian foreign trips. One would be hard-pressed to provide a comparable example.

+ Trudeau was given the cold shoulder and snub because of his closeness and fluency with the Sikhs. The GOI institutions would not let that pass. Modi probably shares his disdain for the Sikhs.

+ This episode brings to light just how deeply the Government of India and its institutions are instinctively anti-Sikh and nothing has really changed since the 1980s. The snubs and the cold shoulder given to Trudeau is not for the defense of India the nation, but instead it is the institutionalized government of India which hasn't abandoned its disdain for the Sikhs.

+ This also shows that the GOI has no intention of ever coming clean on its role in precipitating the 1980s Punjab crisis nor are they going to give justing to the 5000+ Sikhs killed in GOI and Congress sponsored pogrom in Delhi, Bokaro, Kanpur, and other places. It would be better for Sikhs to forget that justice is even likely.

+ Humiliating foreign state heads as a way negotiating and executing foreign policy is not a norm. The only country that practices this effectively is China; and one most civilized countries do not like this way of dealings find it rightly repulsive. While host nations can/should make their point forcefully and assertively, but not by making a public spectacle of heaping humiliations on visiting heads of state and rubbing their face in this fashion. If that is how they feel, why have the visit in the first place?

+ The cold shoulder for Trudeau's crimes are to be contrasted with the importance and warm welcome afforded to visits of Pakistani PMs, Presidents (both elected and those who seized power). Contrast that with the attention and respect given to Musharraff after Kargil, or Zia or Bhutto or Sharif. Not one of them left India getting humiliated. Contrast this with the foot licking that India gives when Chinese premier visits, where we gladly subvert our own constitution to shut down all Tibet related protests for even their Olympic torch. How much Indian land does Canada occupy and compare that with POK and Aksai Chin occupations.

+ Modi has had no problem making a visit to Pakistan, attend Sharif's family wedding, sending tweets on good wishes to Sharif and Pakistan. All this for a terrorist nation that has openly talked of destroying all that is India, it has nukes ready to destroy India, it is sitting on Indian land, it has a lot of Indian blood on its hand and regularly spills more. Indian and Modi's slavishness to Pakistan be contrasted with attitude towards Canada. Compare the actual crimes of Trudeau's Canada with that of Pakistan!

+ Those who run foreign policy should realize that doling out such humiliations has implications beyond simply one visit. Such treatments send out unintended messages, but internally and externally.

+ There was hope that BJP would eventually transform the GOI institutional thinking and move it from the Colonial-inspired Congress attitudes to nationalistic pride and national strength. That faith is probably misplaced--BJP has become more Congressized instead.


Interesting.

Surinder ji attributes the snubbing of Trudeau not to an aversion for Khalistani terrorists, but to a "disdain for Sikhs" in general on the part of GOI and indeed PM Modi himself.

Now I'd like to ask Surinder ji something. It's reported that Trudeau wanted to visit Punjab but avoid meeting its CM, Captain Amarinder Singh.

CM Amarinder Singh is the elected leader of a state that is majority Sikh, with approximately 36 times as many Sikhs as there are in Canada. Trudeau did not want to meet Amarinder because Khalistanis in Canada do not like him.Trudeau was only compelled to meet him because "Sikh-disdaining" GOI threatened to withdraw permission for Trudeau to visit Punjab otherwise.

So Surinder ji, do you think Justin Trudeau's intent to snub CM Amarinder Singh is indicative of "Disdain for Sikhs" (in general) by the Canadian govt?

Or are the 18 million Sikhs in Punjab not worthy of your concern... and it is just the 500k TFTA Sikhs in Canada, indeed only the Khalistani supporters among them, whose sentiments you are rushing to defend against "disdain"?

Your answer (or lack of it) will expose the precise amount of Pakistaniyat underlying your position. Thank you.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 25 Feb 2018 01:52

surinder wrote:Regarding the Trudeau visit fiasco:

.....
+ Trudeau was given the cold shoulder and snub because of his closeness and fluency with the Sikhs. The GOI institutions would not let that pass. Modi probably shares his disdain for the Sikhs.

+ This episode brings to light just how deeply the Government of India and its institutions are instinctively anti-Sikh and nothing has really changed since the 1980s. The snubs and the cold shoulder given to Trudeau is not for the defense of India the nation, but instead it is the institutionalized government of India which hasn't abandoned its disdain for the Sikhs.
...

for someone whose posts I used to read with interest, this must be the rudest wake up call imaginable. the comments rank among the stupidest I've read on BRF, barring those by bots & trolls. I guess this is what being truly away from roots does to even well meaning people.

GOI has strong sikh representation in all levels and roles, to think that such an organisation has "disdain for sikhs" is simply laughable.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 25 Feb 2018 03:11

Kakkaji wrote:Surinder ji

The GoI went out of its way to protect the honour of the CM of Punjab, who happens to be a Sikh, and who happens to belong to the opposition party. Amarinder gave the BJP a drubbing in the Punjab polls not too long ago, and yet they upheld his honour vis-à-vis Trudeau. Those peddling Sikh grievance should stop and think about that.


Trudeau is not only close to Khalistani crowd but also sympathetic to Paki Islamist cause so much so that he ignore ISIS walas infiltrating Canada. I don't think daily threatening noises made by these both elements can be ignored by any government in India. They make no secret of their intention to destroy India as countrty.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 25 Feb 2018 03:32

Did Canada’s obstruction of meet between radical Sikh groups and Ram Madhav in 2016 sour ties with India?
Failed November 2016 talks between radical Sikh groups and BJP leader Ram Madhav may not have been the only trigger. But it was among several incidents, key interlocutors involved in negotiations said, which contributed to the trust deficit between India...

Did the obstruction by Canadian authorities of a crucial meeting between radical Sikh groups and an interlocutor and senior BJP leader Ram Madhav in 2016 contribute to the frosty reception accorded to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau during his visit to India?

People familiar with the matter believe it may have been one event, and a very significant one, in a long list of incidents that have affected relations between the two countries.

In November 2016, Madhav travelled to Canada for a meeting with Sikh groups that had been arranged by UK-based Jasdev Singh Rai of the Sikh Human Rights Group. The plan was for Rai to travel from the UK to join Madhav in Toronto as the Sikh representatives were unwilling to hold talks in Rai’s absence.

Rai, a British citizen who had travelled to Canada at least 25 times and had kept the Canadian Security Intelligence Service in the loop about his contacts with the Sikh groups, put in a request for an Electronic Travel Authorisation (ETA) to Canada on November 17, 2016, thinking it would be a mere formality.

However, the ETA clearance – usually done within 24 hours – never came and Rai was unable to join Madhav in Canada, two people familiar with the developments said.

Madhav, who had earlier participated in similar talks with UK-based Sikh groups (also organised by Rai) and had plans to discuss the terms of a dialogue with Canada-based Sikh groups, was angered after he was left cooling his heels in Toronto, one of the two added on condition of anonymity.

In Rai’s absence, the key Sikh groups refused to join the talks and Madhav could only meet two representatives, Ranjit Singh and Parminder Singh, before he left Canada for the US after about 24 hours, this person added.

The second person familiar with the matter, who asked not to be identified, confirmed this turn of events.

Rai, currently in Geneva for meetings at the UN, on Wednesday accused the Canadian government of “sabotaging” the Indian government’s efforts to engage Sikh separatists in a dialogue. He said Canadian authorities had formally told him about his ETA being denied on “security grounds” only on January 27, 2017 – more than two months after he had applied for it.

“Trudeau should stop pretending that he is defending freedom of expression of Khalistanis and come clean that his government has obstructed the peace dialogue process between the Modi Government and Sikh separatists,” Rai said.

The second person familiar with the matter said Indian authorities had learnt that Rai had been denied a visa after pro-Khalistan groups lobbied Canada’s defence minister Harjit Sajjan, a key member of Trudeau’s cabinet. Sajjan is understood to have played a part in blocking the visa, and India was not happy.

Both people maintained that Trudeau may not have been aware of all the details of the matter as he had been “misled” on the activities of the Sikh radical groups by Indian-origin members of his cabinet, particularly Sajjan and innovation, science and economic development minister Navdeep Bains, both Sikhs.

The Canadian prime minister’s office didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.

“Keeping the Khalistan issue alive in Canada helps some Indian-origin ministers get votes and this is crucial because Canada is set to go to the polls in 2019. Also, keeping this issue alive makes it appear to the constituents that these politicians are doing something on the matter,” said the first person.

Besides the scuppering of the planned talks with the Sikh groups, the case of Jagtar Singh alias Jaggi Johal has created tensions between Indian and Canadian security agencies. Johal, a British national who was arrested in Jalandhar in Punjab on November 4, has been linked to the targeted killing of eight people, including Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) and Shiv Sena members, over the past two years.

Indian security agencies believe radical Sikh groups in Vancouver and Toronto were among the main financiers of Johal. However, other people familiar with the matter said Indian security agencies had received virtually no cooperation from their Canadian counterparts in investigating the sources of funding.

India raised the issue of stopping the funding from the Sikh groups during several recent meetings with Canada’s top security officials and agencies but is yet to see any action being taken on the ground, a third person said.

India’s efforts to reach out to Sikh separatists began before Prime Minister Modi’s visit to the UK in 2015, when the political dispensation in New Delhi decided it was important to “neutralise Khalistani propaganda”.
One way to do this was to reach out to UK-based Sikh groups directly and the BJP’s influential general secretary Madhav went to meet community leaders.

Given his role in organising community events during Modi’s visits to foreign capitals and his close interest in foreign policy and security affairs, Madhav was seen as a natural pick. Rai played a key role in facilitating the meetings in the UK. The effort paid dividends; some 30 Sikh representatives briefly met Modi and others later held talks with home minister Rajnath Singh. New Delhi also removed many leaders from a “blacklist” that prevented several overseas Sikhs, once active in the International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF) and the Khalistan movement, from visiting the country.

Following this success, it was decided that a similar effort should be made to reach out to Sikh groups in Canada. Rai went to Canada in March-April 2016 and managed to persuade leaders of the main Khalistani groups of the benefit of a dialogue, the first and the second person said.

The outreach happened with the knowledge and sanction of the Indian government but the denial of a visa to Rai stalled the process, they added.

The failed November 2016 talks may not have been the only trigger. But it was among several incidents, key interlocutors involved in negotiations said, which contributed to the trust deficit between the two governments.

Much has already been made of the cold welcome accorded to Trudeau when he arrived in India on February 17 for an eight day visit, only half-a-day of which has been set aside for official engagements, including a meeting with Modi.
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/did-canada-s-obstruction-of-meet-between-radical-sikh-groups-and-ram-madhav-in-2016-sour-ties-with-india/story-PWcWbNliRemlhCk6m4sBxJ.html

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Dipanker » 25 Feb 2018 04:05

surinder wrote:+ Humiliating foreign state heads as a way negotiating and executing foreign policy is not a norm. The only country that practices this effectively is China; and one most civilized countries do not like this way of dealings find it rightly repulsive. While host nations can/should make their point forcefully and assertively, but not by making a public spectacle of heaping humiliations on visiting heads of state and rubbing their face in this fashion. If that is how they feel, why have the visit in the first place?

+ The cold shoulder for Trudeau's crimes are to be contrasted with the importance and warm welcome afforded to visits of Pakistani PMs, Presidents (both elected and those who seized power). Contrast that with the attention and respect given to Musharraff after Kargil, or Zia or Bhutto or Sharif. Not one of them left India getting humiliated. Contrast this with the foot licking that India gives when Chinese premier visits, where we gladly subvert our own constitution to shut down all Tibet related protests for even their Olympic torch. How much Indian land does Canada occupy and compare that with POK and Aksai Chin occupations.

+ Modi has had no problem making a visit to Pakistan, attend Sharif's family wedding, sending tweets on good wishes to Sharif and Pakistan. All this for a terrorist nation that has openly talked of destroying all that is India, it has nukes ready to destroy India, it is sitting on Indian land, it has a lot of Indian blood on its hand and regularly spills more. Indian and Modi's slavishness to Pakistan be contrasted with attitude towards Canada. Compare the actual crimes of Trudeau's Canada with that of Pakistan!

+ Those who run foreign policy should realize that doling out such humiliations has implications beyond simply one visit. Such treatments send out unintended messages, but internally and externally.



+1

Agreed with these points. Very poor and inept handling, very uncharacteristic, and very unindian.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby disha » 25 Feb 2018 04:41

^Total BS & #Blow2Modi.

Points by Surinderji are not even worth the manure it is written., particularly when its #anti-India perspective is shining through.

Of course the cheerleading by commies is expected.

Please ignore the trolls.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Feb 2018 04:51

GOI has strong sikh representation in all levels and roles, to think that such an organisation has "disdain for sikhs" is simply laughable.

Please do not post facts here. This is irrelevant to Khalistani propaganda, these productive Indian Sikhs are at best collaborators to be liquidated as such were in 1980s Panjab.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Pulikeshi » 25 Feb 2018 05:21

Dipanker wrote:
surinder wrote:+ Those who run foreign policy should realize that doling out such humiliations has implications beyond simply one visit. Such treatments send out unintended messages, but internally and externally.



+1
Agreed with these points. Very poor and inept handling, very uncharacteristic, and very unindian.


Hahaha :rotfl: this was the best compliment in a long time to GoI :mrgreen:
In agreement with what Rudradev and Rahul said above... pretty disappointing set of comments from people who have good posts otherwise...


It is time India as a $5trillion economy meted out some “treatments” and sent some intended messages in a very uncharacteristic unIndian way!
Kudos to GoI and sad trombone that folks such as yourselves have no idea of the changed circumstances and confidence India finds herself with...

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Dipanker » 25 Feb 2018 05:42

Pulikeshi wrote:
Dipanker wrote:
+1
Agreed with these points. Very poor and inept handling, very uncharacteristic, and very unindian.


Hahaha :rotfl: this was the best compliment in a long time to GoI :mrgreen:
In agreement with what Rudradev and Rahul said above... pretty disappointing set of comments from people who have good posts otherwise...


It is time India as a $5trillion economy meted out some “treatments” and sent some intended messages in a very uncharacteristic unIndian way!
Kudos to GoI and sad trombone that folks such as yourselves have no idea of the changed circumstances and confidence India finds herself with...


$5 trillion economy?? When did that happen? Last I checked it was tottering at around $2.5 trillion, bulk of which has been built on a very high 7+% inflation rate.

But that is beside the point, I am all for a confident and a resurgent India, but do not agree with GOI's handling of the issue, and do not agree with the insulting and humiliating treatment meted out a visiting dignitary.

There has to be a more subtle and nuanced way of conveying our message than the rude and crude way the whole thing was handled - against our civilizational ethos and VERY UNINDIAN.


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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby surinder » 25 Feb 2018 05:45

arshyam wrote:Also, how would you suggest GoI forcefully make the point in any other way?

Sorry, but your post sounds like a mix of a certain kind of propaganda pushed in by elements from across the border, coupled with a "how dare a brown guy stand up to a white milord"?


ARShyam,

GOI, like any country has many, many diplomatic avenues and channels to communicate its views and negotiate to get its ideas across. There are ambassadors meant for this type of talk. Foreign ministers and IFS officials often travel out and discuss these things. Heads of state talk to each other on phone. In the sidelines of numerous international forums there are numerous meetings. Governments also talk to each other through other third-part countries and entities. Public discussion is also initiated over issues like this. Heads of state and foreign ministers often also issue statements, give interview to lay out their policy. If after having done this, the necessary goodwill and understanding is created, then head of state visits are planned. The agenda of these trips are and the optics is managed to make sure that the aim is achieved. If the necessary goodwill did not exist, then Trudeau should not have invited.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 25 Feb 2018 05:46

Toronto Sun Oped: All Trudeau needed to do was denounce the Khalistan movement
What is worth noting is that not a single member of the large contingent of Sikh MPs who accompanied Trudeau raised any alarm at the presence of these two gentlemen. They surely all knew about Atwal and Saini and their anti-India, pro-Khalistan views, but chose to remain silent until Atwal’s identity and past became public.


And here is ManvirSinghSaini, a Khalistani in the Trudeau entourage who was in India trip escaped attention..
Image
Image

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 25 Feb 2018 05:56

Andrew Coyne: L’affaire Atwal: the novelty is only that they did it on Indian soil
It isn’t that Atwal suddenly popped up among the prime minister’s retinue, uninvited, with no prior history of involvement with the federal Liberals. It’s that he was invited, and that he was invited precisely because of his connections with the party....

Suppose the president of France were to visit Canada. Suppose he were of a party whose followers included supporters of Quebec’s secession from Canada. Suppose the purpose of the trip was, in part, to set to rest Canadian fears that the government of France was, at the very least, insufficiently supportive of the unity and integrity of Canada.

Now suppose, the French embassy put on an official dinner for the president. And suppose among those invited was Paul Rose (if he were still alive), the FLQ terrorist convicted in the murder of Pierre Laporte. Suppose, indeed, that he had appeared at an official event earlier in the trip, where he posed for photographs with smiling French cabinet members.


Finally, suppose the French president pranced around the country in a series of designer lumberjack jackets, and you have some sense of the catastrophe that has become of Justin Trudeau’s trip to India.

Actually, the analogy is incomplete. To really capture the enormity of the Trudeau government having been caught consorting with Jaspal Atwal, a former member of a banned Sikh terrorist group convicted in the 1986 attempted murder of a visiting Indian cabinet minister in Vancouver, you’d have to suppose Rose were not a resident of Canada but of France, and that, notwithstanding his record as a terrorist, he was welcomed as an active member of the president’s party.

That begins to put this affair in its proper context. It isn’t that Atwal suddenly popped up among the prime minister’s retinue, uninvited, with no prior history of involvement with the federal Liberals. It’s that he was invited, and that he was invited precisely because of his connections with the party.



Atwal has a history of involvement with previous politicians, such as posing with former Liberal party interim leader Bob Rae and others in this photo. POSTMEDIA ARCHIVE
It doesn’t take much searching to find Atwal posing for photographs with prominent Liberals, including its former and present leaders, or to discover that he was a member of the executive of the Fleetwood-Port Kells riding association in Surrey, B.C. Atwal, then, would not have been unknown to senior Liberals; neither would his violent past. (Indeed, among his alleged victims was a former Liberal cabinet minister, Ujjal Dosanjh, who accuses him to this day of beating him over the head with a metal pipe, though Atwal was acquitted of the charge in court.)

Neither is he the only Sikh separatist, extreme or otherwise, to find a haven within the party, or to whom the party has catered: witness the prime minister’s attendance at a Toronto event earlier this year featuring flags of Sikh separatism and posters of the extremist leader Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale. It isn’t that the government actively supports Sikh separatism. It’s that, for political reasons, the Liberal party has been willing to look the other way at those who do; to appear, if not sympathetic to, than at least indulgent of their cause, if that were required to attract their votes, their money and their organizational muscle.

The novelty here is only that they did it on Indian soil. On an official visit with the prime minister. While he was attempting to reassure Indian officials that their concerns about his government;were groundless. One wants to believe this was mere incompetence. But alas, a disaster of this scale could only have been on purpose.


Atwal, left, posted this photo of himself with Trudeau and another man to his Facebook page in January, 2013. JASPAL ATWAL/FACEBOOK
When the story broke the blame was first fixed on the High Commission to India, the organizers of the dinner. But it is impossible: impossible that officials there would have invited Atwal had they known about his past, and impossible that they could not have known.

Eventually a hapless Liberal backbencher, Surrey Centre MP Randeep Sarai, was produced to claim “full responsibility” for the invitation: “I alone facilitated” it, his statement read. The prime minister followed by graciously accepting the MP’s acceptance of responsibility.

But this, too, is absurd. The MP may have been the one to invite him. But it is impossible that he could have been added to the guest list for such a high-stakes event solely on his say-so. As anyone close to these things will tell you, it could only have been with the concurrence of the prime minister’s office.

And even if, by some colossal misadventure, this were the truth — if an obscure backbench MP put forward the name of a convicted terrorist, and no one bothered to check — where did the MP get the idea to invite him? Why did he imagine this would meet with approval? Answer: because there was nothing that unusual about it. The culture and values of an organization are set at the top. If those lower down act on them, that is the responsibility of their leader, who ought to accept it on his own behalf, not others’.

Rex Murphy: What does it take to not be invited to dinner with Trudeau?
Why India has better things to do than hang out with Justin Trudeau
Conservatives want committee meeting on security screening over Atwal furor
But accepting responsibility does not appear to be among this government’s, or this prime minister’s, values. Instead, in a final attempt to shift the blame, a “senior government source” was sent out to brief reporters that this was somehow the work of the Indian government. How, it was asked, was Atwal even admitted to India, given his record?

It’s a good question, though not one to which the only possible answer is “as part of an elaborate plot to make the Canadian government look soft on terrorism.” As Postmedia’s Kim Bolan has reported, Atwal’s criminal record has not prevented him from being admitted to India in the past.

But again: even if this were true — even if “rogue elements” within the Indian government laid a trap for the Trudeau government, making Atwal available in case he should happen to be invited to an official dinner with the prime minister (deep breath) to expose his government’s separatist sympathies and (deep breath) prevent relations between the two countries from warming — or whatever the plot is supposed to involve — what required anyone on the government’s side to take the bait?

Did the Indians invite him? No. Did they intervene to prevent anyone from vetting the list? No. This is on Trudeau’s people, and on Trudeau himself, in whatever mix of recklessness and ineptitude may have been responsible: another foreign-policy debacle to add to this government’s growing and impressive pile. Avec moi le deluge.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Pulikeshi » 25 Feb 2018 05:59

Dipanker wrote:There has to be a more subtle and nuanced way of conveying our message than the rude and crude way the whole thing was handled - against our civilizational ethos and VERY UNINDIAN.


On her way to $5T with you :(( all along the way.... no fear!
Why are you so quick to fall for the bait and go Haathosmi (woe is me) and self-flagellate? :rotfl:
India (GoI) represents the nation-state of India and is responsible for the safety and protection of the citizens of that state.
Canada has not listened in years... to gentle and not so gentle prodding by India... they deserve more that what “treatment” was meted out now.

The India civilization is much broader than GoI and does not and need not just fit the current geographic boundaries of India.
As such GoI or the civilization does not need a certificate for good behavior - not from you for sure!
India is a power and Canuks better respect her for what is being asked...
If Canada and her PM had any sense, they would work on mending their ways and kick the Khalistanis in the proverbials!
If not welcome to new India - she bites!

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby surinder » 25 Feb 2018 06:18

Kakkaji wrote:Surinder ji

The GoI went out of its way to protect the honour of the CM of Punjab, who happens to be a Sikh, and who happens to belong to the opposition party. Amarinder gave the BJP a drubbing in the Punjab polls not too long ago, and yet they upheld his honour vis-à-vis Trudeau. Those peddling Sikh grievance should stop and think about that.


Kakkaji,

I don't know if you realize it or not, you are only supporting my arguments, not countering it.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 25 Feb 2018 06:21

Amber G. wrote:Toronto Sun Oped: All Trudeau needed to do was denounce the Khalistan movement
What is worth noting is that not a single member of the large contingent of Sikh MPs who accompanied Trudeau raised any alarm at the presence of these two gentlemen. They surely all knew about Atwal and Saini and their anti-India, pro-Khalistan views, but chose to remain silent until Atwal’s identity and past became public.


From the comments section of the above Tarek Fatah article:

Akram Niazi
Right of self detemination is basic right of people, if India is misbehaving with its minorities and misbehaving them by showing hindue terrorism and extremism, and not allowing any one to even touch about their rights then it is highly condemnable.
Like · Reply · 1 · 2 hrs

Jim Crossman
So does the same apply to Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, or perhaps the shithole better known as Pakistan??
Like · Reply · 3 · 1 hr

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Pulikeshi » 25 Feb 2018 06:25

surinder wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Surinder ji

The GoI went out of its way to protect the honour of the CM of Punjab, who happens to be a Sikh, and who happens to belong to the opposition party. Amarinder gave the BJP a drubbing in the Punjab polls not too long ago, and yet they upheld his honour vis-à-vis Trudeau. Those peddling Sikh grievance should stop and think about that.


Kakkaji,

I don't know if you realize it or not, you are only supporting my arguments, not countering it.


I am not sure you realize that you are falling into the same “useful idiots” camp that supported the visa denial of another elected Indian CM :roll:

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 25 Feb 2018 06:31

surinder wrote:ARShyam,

GOI, like any country has many, many diplomatic avenues and channels to communicate its views and negotiate to get its ideas across. There are ambassadors meant for this type of talk. Foreign ministers and IFS officials often travel out and discuss these things. Heads of state talk to each other on phone. In the sidelines of numerous international forums there are numerous meetings. Governments also talk to each other through other third-part countries and entities. Public discussion is also initiated over issues like this. Heads of state and foreign ministers often also issue statements, give interview to lay out their policy. If after having done this, the necessary goodwill and understanding is created, then head of state visits are planned. The agenda of these trips are and the optics is managed to make sure that the aim is achieved. If the necessary goodwill did not exist, then Trudeau should not have invited.


surinder ji:

What makes you think the GoI did not try communicating through the other channels? The stories coming out say that GoI tried in several ways to make known its concerns to the Canadian Government about its support to the Khalistanis, but the Trudeay Government chose to ignore it.

On the flip side, what did Modi say or do in public to JT that was objectionable?

And by the way, the GoI did not initiate the idea of this visit. Trudeau himself did, and kept on pressuring until the GoI reluctantly agreed.

I think you have become a victim of the 'blame India first' syndrome.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2018 06:41

surinder wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Surinder ji

The GoI went out of its way to protect the honour of the CM of Punjab, who happens to be a Sikh, and who happens to belong to the opposition party. Amarinder gave the BJP a drubbing in the Punjab polls not too long ago, and yet they upheld his honour vis-à-vis Trudeau. Those peddling Sikh grievance should stop and think about that.


Kakkaji,

I don't know if you realize it or not, you are only supporting my arguments, not countering it.


Kindly explain how he is supporting your pointless claims that somehow GOI and Modi are anti-Sikh, as versus anti-Khalistani, which they have every right to be.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2018 06:43

AmberG, thanks for posting those images and articles. Quite a brazen bunch of opportunists, these Khalistanis. They have no honor, no izzat and want to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds. They peddle a victimhood agenda but are quite keen to sup with the movers and shakers in GOI to strike deals in the background (basically sophisticated blackmail) while delivering votes to their Canadian political masters.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Kashi » 25 Feb 2018 06:45

Surinder Ji, this is what you argued

Trudeau was given the cold shoulder and snub because of his closeness and fluency with the Sikhs. The GOI institutions would not let that pass. Modi probably shares his disdain for the Sikhs.

+ This episode brings to light just how deeply the Government of India and its institutions are instinctively anti-Sikh and nothing has really changed since the 1980s.


and KakkaJi pointed out

The GoI went out of its way to protect the honour of the CM of Punjab, who happens to be a Sikh, and who happens to belong to the opposition party. Amarinder gave the BJP a drubbing in the Punjab polls not too long ago, and yet they upheld his honour vis-à-vis Trudeau. Those peddling Sikh grievance should stop and think about that.


You argument was that YOU THINK GoI is anti-Sikh based on their dealing with Trudeau (who's neither Sikh, nor Indian). Kakkaji pointed out that GoI went out of their way to support the Sikh Chief Minister of Punjab whom the non-Sikh, non-Indian Trudeau had refused to meet on flimsy political grounds. This deliberate attempted snub is described as a state of "closeness and fluency (whatever that means) with Sikhs" in your book??

How on earth do Kakkaji's points in anyway support your arguments?

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Dipanker » 25 Feb 2018 06:52

Irrelevant trolling deleted.

-Karan


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