India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 27 May 2010 07:02

Caller after caller expressed their horror at it.

Not only that but one can hear the outrage in the voice of the radio and TV show hosts when they refer to this incident. They call it "biggest act of terror from Canadian soil." There's no pride in that.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 27 May 2010 07:37

Canadian aspersions open a can of worms

Many cases are now coming to light as those denied visas earlier thought they were the only ones given this treatment. . . As of Wednesday, at least half a dozen former officials, including a member of the Armed Forces Tribunal, three (then) serving brigadiers, a retired general and a former Intelligence Bureau official, approached the media, pointing out visa rejection on grounds that their organisations were engaging in violence or subversive activities.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 27 May 2010 08:59

It looks like some Paki has taken residence in the Canadian visa issuing agency and is influencing policy.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 May 2010 10:36

I am convinced there is a Khalistani angle somehow.

I am aware of the asylum thing. It is very real. Most of the sikhs who emigrated to the US, Canada, UK, during the 80s and the 90s, apart from other reasons for emigration, cited persecution in India against sikhs as one of the reasons to bolster their case via the immigration lawyers there.

See, Sikhs who have worked with a security agency are targetted. Now Punjab has an emigration agency like there is an STD booth in other parts of India - at virtually every street corner. If word goes around that being in the security forces causes trouble in your visa application, that sends a subtle message in itself across Punjab.

As it is the Khalistani movement is on revival mode. The expatriate sikh community, mostly the uneducated/akalis who went overseas and have now made it big support this. There are rallies and pro khalistani literature in open circulation in these countries. You can search the internet for such websites too which it seems have proliferated of late.

I think this thing is real.

lsunil · Post by **lsunil** » 27 May 2010 10:39

The indian media is nuts. They are saying that "india is unhappy because of a visa denial". That BS.

The issue is about a country like canada degrading our security institutions. Not fu@king visa's.

Arihant · Post by **Arihant** » 27 May 2010 11:50

Gerard wrote:Now, Canadian mission humiliates Punjab police
The requests of additional director-general (crime) Rajan Gupta and Patiala SSP RS Khatra for a Canadian visa were turned down by the mission as they were involved in “anti-military activity” and therefore, party to human rights violations in Punjab.

Sources said police officers applying for a Canadian visa now need to fill a separate form mentioning the places where they were posted. It is learnt that the Canadian embassy has identified six districts, including those on the Indo-Pak border, where the police have come down heavily on militants to quell violence.
IPS officials feel the commission’s decision may be due to pressure from Canada-based Sikh human rights organisations, which had been taking up the cause of Punjab militants from time to time. Police officers feel this is another attempt by some organisations to run them down for their fight against militancy.

I have observed a deep undercurrent of racism in Canadian society, often cloaked in a veneer of sphistication (Canadians can be great sophisticates). Much of the wealth in the provinces of BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec (and to a lesser extent the smaller Maritime provinces) acrues from a systematic program of genocide perpetrated on the native population of Canada. It would be useful to require that Indian visa applicants residing in these provinces establish (prior to the grant of an Inian visa, and via application to a tribunal of Indian experts) that none of their personal assets were in any way derived from the vast appropriation of native Canadian resources that was the purpose of this program of genocide. That massive genocide program started in the 1600s and in small and subtle ways, continues today (visit a Canadian native reservation to see it first-hand). The province of Alberta had a government-sponsored eugenics program until the 1970s.....

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 27 May 2010 19:28

"I have observed a deep undercurrent of racism in Canadian society, often cloaked in a veneer of sophistication (Canadians can be great sophisticates)."

Apart from this, which is true to a fair degree-and in the 1970's there was not even a veneer of sophistication- it's that combination of parochialism, ignorance, arrogance, pomposity, lack of awareness and lack of eloquence, that really gets to you in this country. If I were to point to a single 'cause', it's simply the inability to identify with the general anti-colonial mindset of India and of Indians. And here, I'm of course referring to reasonably educated and sophisticated people. The ignorant and unsophisticated can be reflexively or reactively racist in their crude way. But if you think about it, if there was empathy and awareness of what India represents historically, would there be a problem between the two countries? To put it differently, if the general Canadian mindset was one that recognises and respects the progressive nature of the Indian independence movement, would any of these problems with either visas or the nuclear issue, really arise at all? One is certainly tempted to chalk it up to an underlying or root cause.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 27 May 2010 19:36

I find thunderous silence from Ravi Karumanchiri, an esteemed member of brf and living in canada , very intriguing in the least. He should perhaps take up this issue with canadian authorities and impress upon them the idiocy of their action.My two cents only, or is it two paise?

ps:- still awaiting his scholarly writeup as promised to ramana garu, on nuclear harakiri to save oneself from total destruction and international condemnation.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 27 May 2010 19:41

lsunil wrote:The indian media is nuts. They are saying that "india is unhappy because of a visa denial". That BS.

The issue is about a country like canada degrading our security institutions. Not fu@king visa's.

Yes, it is about India and not visas to some individuals.

"We have written to the external affairs ministry about it. If the Canadians don't respond, we will retaliate," Home Secretary G.K. Pillai told IANS.

Asked if Canadians would be denied visas to India as a retaliatory measure, Pillai said: "Let's see. It all depends on how they respond."

Pillai said India will wait for a few days before deciding the course of action. "We will wait to hear from them. Let's give them a few days' time," said Pillai.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 27 May 2010 20:14

Going into the Sikh angle serves no purpose now, but allows the "white" pro-Brit core of Canada's ruling framework to divert the attention to supposed "khalistan" issues and throw the ball back into India's corner. I had posted here, some days ago about how the Canadian airforce casually dubs Indian action against Pakistan as "terrorist". Why does it not catch attention here that it is the larger "inner commonwealth" countries that strongly, and racially identify with the Brit mainland and power-icons - that of Canada and Australia - where a growing anti-Indian expression is taking place.

I am happy to see that GOI has thought in the same way that I had mentioned about using the Afghan dance of the Canadians as a parallel. Canadian army/AF have alraedy hinted at gaming possible role that they may have to play in interventions arising out of the "J&k" situation.

The Home ministry may gnash its teeth, but the MEA and the political powers behind the formal GOI will once again see to it that it does not go to "retaliation". Oz and Canada appear to have a charmed life as far as Congress is concerned - maybe because they are directly and intimately linked to continued Brit authority as inner commonwealth countries.

munna · Post by **munna** » 27 May 2010 20:25

Some pointers gentle rakshaks
Why Canada refused visa

The grounds include:

1)Engaging in act of espionage or act of subversion against a democratic government Engaging in terrorism

2)Being a danger to the security of Canada and engaging in acts of violence that might endanger the lives of safety of people in China

3)Being a member of an organisation that engages in terrorism, espionage or subversive activities

Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/why-cana ... ?u=1115&cp

lsunil · Post by **lsunil** » 27 May 2010 21:10

China? A part of the commonwealth?

OZ or canada, they are only extensions. UK has become an extension too. I bet there "master" is behind all this. The americas and the oz still remain colonized and occupied. It's in there interest to stick together - the commonwealth. Maybe there preparing a ground for meddling in kashmir.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 27 May 2010 21:11

I have had one and only one white Canadian spontaneously admit that there was a genocide in Canada-which confirms that this is an incredible sore spot and if India so choses, a devastating point of leverage. Although Canada has done much to redress some grievances, natives continue to be ostracised, they fill the prisons, their suicide rates are unconscionable, poverty is endemic, they are routinely refused housing, they are essentially banished to remote bantustans.

I have worked among them, their anger is turned inward with alcohol, drugs and violence. Yet they are no terrorists or suicide bombers among them so I would call them highly civilised.

As for Sikhs-yes there are some issues in a community where the biggest problem is lack of recognition of the value of higher education, especially for females. The whites love to declaim the domestic abuse and alcohol abuse among them. But the Sikhs are not eating for free on welfare as some generations of whites are. They don't dump their old folk in nursing homes. The drug use among the vast majority of Sikhs is essentially zero unlike white people's prolific use of this form of recreation. Divorce rates are low, family responsibilty is taken seriously. Unfortunately their is systemic immigration fraud and scams aplenty. But I am sure so is the case for Portuguese or East Europeans' women-traficing etc etc

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 27 May 2010 21:19

C'mon, this uber over-reaction has to be tempered. All BR has left is someone who's gonna say this is some kinda revenge for Smiling Buddha.

The is after all Soviet Canuckistan....

No effort is needed to emasculate 'em.

Our "amerikhan" types are in overdrive in hyper angst. GTFO over yourselves....the great white North isn't some Pakjabi proxy for Xenu's sake....

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 27 May 2010 21:22

"a veneer of sophistication (Canadians can be great sophisticates)."

Putting on airs of sophistication is not something commendable under any circumstances. But if a country is going to do that, the behaviour should be based on something real and concrete, and historical. Canada as a country is dependent on the US for 80% of its trade; Canada did not even possess its own flag until 1965. During WW2, Canada entered, not because of any principled opposition to fascism, but because the UK did. Canada's break with the US on the latest gulf war is a radical departure from its historical subservient behaviour of following the US on just about every issue. And yet, for most of the world, including India, being sceptical, opposed or unsupportive is nothing remarkable.

lsunil · Post by **lsunil** » 27 May 2010 21:24

sanjaykumar wrote:I have had one and only one white Canadian spontaneously admit that there was a genocide in Canada-which confirms that this is an incredible sore spot and if India so choses, a devastating point of leverage. Although Canada has done much to redress some grievances, natives continue to be ostracised, they fill the prisons, their suicide rates are unconscionable, poverty is endemic, they are routinely refused housing, they are essentially banished to remote bantustans.

That is what i meant when i said "systematic" genocide. They didn't use ethic cleansing but alternative means to chase away the local population and installed a system which ensured slow and systematic persecution of the locals.

The US armed itself to a level where the extensions have accepted them as there master. All genocide tribunals originate from the US. They have become gods and all the righteous morals are what the US says they are.

No country has had the b@lls to question the existing colonies. India should know what it has to do and prepare itself for it.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 27 May 2010 21:31

What CAN we do, in reality?

We aren't China, and we aren't Pakistan. We are stuck with log kya kahenge, and can do only 'gentlemanly' things. So, what are the options?

1. We sure can declare the offending CanadaBabus who made those statements persona non grata, and get new babus who might deny visa to Chidambaram because he supported terrorism against the poor LTTE.
2. We can call the HighCommissioner babu, give him chai and biscoot, and express our serious displeasure, shake hands, and walk him out of the door to his limo.
3. We can send a letter to the netas and babus in Ottawa, and satisfy the apitite of the shredder there.
4. Maybe the honourable PM can send a crate of mangoes (no, not THAT crate. The eating variety onlee) to the honourable PM of canada

That pretty much it is. Anything else wouldn't be gentlemanly.

munna · Post by **munna** » 27 May 2010 21:34

Dileep wrote:That pretty much it is. Anything else wouldn't be gentlemanly.

We can be gentlemanly and "Chankian" at the same time! Our establishment has elephantine memory and this shall be repaid "sud samet (with interest)" to the uber supermacists that these guys are proving to be. UK has already "seen" light rest will follow too.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 27 May 2010 21:35

They didn't use ethic cleansing but alternative means to chase away the local population and installed a system which ensured slow and systematic persecution of the locals.

Natives have told me how the whites targeted women of reproductive age, how the women had their breasts sliced off to make tobacco pouches....

lsunil · Post by **lsunil** » 27 May 2010 21:49

We can cease from being the "wall" and let the dragon escape.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 May 2010 21:57

Visa issue: India issues ultimatum to Canada

Taking a tough line, India [ Images ] on Thursday termed as "unacceptable" the denunciation of its security forces and intelligence establishment by Canada [ Images ] and gave it a one-week deadline to "address the situation
appropriately".

While Canada remained silent amid an outrage, External Affairs Minister S M Krishna [ Images ] said the Canadian High Commissioner had been "called" twice by his ministry to register protest over the issue.

"We have conveyed to the Canadian government that the letter issued by the Canadian High Commission to serving or retired officials of our security forces and agencies who had applied for Canadian visa are entirely unacceptable," he told reporters in Bangalore.

"We expect the Canadian authorities to address the situation appropriately," the minister said. Asked what next step India contemplated, he said, "Let us wait for the Canadian authorities to address it".

Noting that India had made its "position crystal clear to Canadian authorities", Krishna appealed to the media "not try to blow it (the issue) out of proportion."

Underlining that institutions in India function under the Constitution, he said, "We are proud of our security forces and agencies and the services they render to the nation".

With such weak kneed responses to slaps on the face, no wonder that most of the countries ( even 3rd rate bananas like Pak) treat India and its institutions like a doormat..

Can Canada even dare do such a thing to a county like Russia/China?

krithivas · Post by **krithivas** » 27 May 2010 22:14

India needs to retaliate. Period.

This is the time to retaliate, and not the time to introspect or the time to defend or any other action.

Pull the trigger first and then talk.

sum wrote:Visa issue: India issues ultimatum to Canada

Taking a tough line, India [ Images ] on Thursday termed as "unacceptable" the denunciation of its security forces and intelligence establishment by Canada [ Images ] and gave it a one-week deadline to "address the situation
appropriately".

While Canada remained silent amid an outrage, External Affairs Minister S M Krishna [ Images ] said the Canadian High Commissioner had been "called" twice by his ministry to register protest over the issue.

"We have conveyed to the Canadian government that the letter issued by the Canadian High Commission to serving or retired officials of our security forces and agencies who had applied for Canadian visa are entirely unacceptable," he told reporters in Bangalore.

"We expect the Canadian authorities to address the situation appropriately," the minister said. Asked what next step India contemplated, he said, "Let us wait for the Canadian authorities to address it".

Noting that India had made its "position crystal clear to Canadian authorities", Krishna appealed to the media "not try to blow it (the issue) out of proportion."

Underlining that institutions in India function under the Constitution, he said, "We are proud of our security forces and agencies and the services they render to the nation".
With such weak kneed responses to slaps on the face, no wonder that most of the countries ( even 3rd rate bananas like Pak) treat India and its institutions like a doormat..

Can Canada even dare do such a thing to a county like Russia/China?

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 27 May 2010 23:14

Jaspreet wrote: Not only that but one can hear the outrage in the voice of the radio and TV show hosts when they refer to this incident. They call it "biggest act of terror from Canadian soil." There's no pride in that.

It is also equally true that a lot of Canadian Sikhs that have Khalistani leanings claim that the Kanishka disaster was orchestrated by the Indian government and Ripu Daman Singh was poor innocent person only. One does not have to go far to find purveyors of that theory, anyone remember Deepan Gill (though I dont know if he had Khalistani leanings) ?

Fact is a lot of Canadian and UK Sikhs support Khalistan and harbour dreams of a great Khalistan taking rise in Punjab. Some of the Gurudware in UK and Canada are a testament to that fact. It is also true that such entities hold a lot of financial and political clout in the Sikh community.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 27 May 2010 23:51

Tanaji,
I am not contradicting what you're saying. The point I was making was different.

Jaspreet · Post by **Jaspreet** » 28 May 2010 00:47

There's a great battle going on in the comments section at
Globe and Mail. Please join us.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 28 May 2010 00:52

The Canadian snub directly relates to events shepharded by the current Indian regime. While this party can be most inefficient and weak-kneed in dealing with anything, but when it comes to dynastic honor, it will harness the entire energy of India. So we can be assured that this regime will do its best to undo this snub.

bart · Post by **bart** » 28 May 2010 01:53

Jaspreet wrote:There's a great battle going on in the comments section at
Globe and Mail. Please join us.

Going by the comments there either the Canadans (WTF is Canadia) have a severe infestation of Pakis (including Khalistanis) or they are major inbred retards - My general impression of Canadians were that they were Americans without the ignorance, gun culture and religious fundamentalism, surprised to find they are so ignorant of India.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 28 May 2010 02:09

Are canadians coming to Naya Delhi for the Commonwealth games? Deny them Visas and see the shit hit the fan. Will our babus do it?

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 28 May 2010 02:28

bahdada wrote:C'mon, this uber over-reaction has to be tempered. All BR has left is someone who's gonna say this is some kinda revenge for Smiling Buddha.

The is after all Soviet Canuckistan.... No effort is needed to emasculate 'em. Our "amerikhan" types are in overdrive in hyper angst. GTFO over yourselves....the great white North isn't some Pakjabi proxy for Xenu's sake....

Excuse me ? Over reaction ?? How is it an "over-reaction" when a foreign government accuses a Free and Democratic country's federal and military agencies of "war crimes", "terrorism" and other such absurd allegations for performing their duties as commissioned to them by the PEOPLE of INDIA ?? It is tantamount to accusing the very people of India of being terrorists and as such can be considered a direct insult to the whole Republic of India. Nations have gone to war for less!

The temerity of those casting such aspersions defies the bounds of mere pomposity or ignorant arrogance but borders on willful slander and open belligerence against the people of sovereign democratic republic !! Either the Canadian government is blissfully ignorant or is incredulously naive about India's capacity to respond in kind.

Those Ice skating, maple syrup loving, Moose riding Igloo dwellers have this time scored an own goal. The Indian bureaucracy might be slow to act to these kind of things when regular civilians are being shown prejudice and shoved around by the Canadian High Commission but when you target bureaucrats and intelligence officers attending official business, the bureaucrats and the powers-that-be quickly become a well oiled machine gunning for you.

There are many very possible avenues that India could take to hobble the Canadian "sanctimony". India being a member of the G20 should lodge a formal protest and a motion with the G20 asking them to shift the venue to the US in light these belligerent and prejudicial Canadian government for the sake of neutrality and logistical access.

The Commonwealth games coming to India soon should see a LOT of Canadian soldiers, intelligence officials etc applying for Indian visas and give India ample opportunity to cast judgment on their lives and their past duties with the Canadian federal agencies or even for owning property of displaced aborigines of Canada.

In the streets of Delhi as in the streets of New York, the same credo rings true - "Don't take crap from anybody!" .

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 28 May 2010 03:33

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/visa-row-ind ... ml?from=tn

CNN-IBN has details of Tank's visa interview that took place in December 2008.

He was asked if he has questioned detainees, if he's been involved in Operation Blue Star, if he's ever killed militants, tortured suspects or seen others torture suspects.

Amrik's answer to each of these questions was "no".

mnag · Post by **mnag** » 28 May 2010 04:00

The Home Ministry wants an apology and other action from the High Commission within a week, warning that there will otherwise be retaliation and the Canadian officials going to Afghanistan via India will be denied permission.

Can the gurus here educate on who these officials are? Does it only include Canadian soldiers deployed in Afghanistan or other bureaucrats/press

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 28 May 2010 04:21

I have long known that torture can impair the memory of survivors. What I learned from observing the recent military commission proceedings in the case of Omar Khadr, the Canadian facing trial at Guantanamo for crimes he allegedly committed at age 15, is that it can impair the memory of perpetrators too
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... /article/8

One could easily add that there is open source material on the complicity of the Canadian armed forces in the torture of Afghan civilians.
http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/column ... 439971.ece

Arihant · Post by **Arihant** » 28 May 2010 07:30

Dileep wrote:What CAN we do, in reality?

We aren't China, and we aren't Pakistan. We are stuck with log kya kahenge, and can do only 'gentlemanly' things. So, what are the options?

1. We sure can declare the offending CanadaBabus who made those statements persona non grata, and get new babus who might deny visa to Chidambaram because he supported terrorism against the poor LTTE.
2. We can call the HighCommissioner babu, give him chai and biscoot, and express our serious displeasure, shake hands, and walk him out of the door to his limo.
3. We can send a letter to the netas and babus in Ottawa, and satisfy the apitite of the shredder there.
4. Maybe the honourable PM can send a crate of mangoes (no, not THAT crate. The eating variety onlee) to the honourable PM of canada

That pretty much it is. Anything else wouldn't be gentlemanly.

I'd add a couple of more to that list:

5. Communicate with Canadian Govt. (in a very "gentlemanly" fashion), possible plans for setting up a mechanism for establishing "non-involvement" and "no personal gain" from genocide of natives of Canadian applicants for Indian visas. We might seek Canadian cooperation in establishing and running this tribunal. It might be patterned on UN war crimes tribunals.
6. Require that all Canadian government (Federal and provincial) employees as well past and serving armed forces members seeking Indian visas establish non-involvement with their operations in Afghanistan and prior UN peacekeeping engagements (allegations of abuse have accompanied Canadian forces in all of these).

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 28 May 2010 07:48

As it is the visa process at the Canadian embassy is crazy enough. You file the application, and after weeks they will call you for interview on a certain date in Delhi. What kind of a system is that?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 28 May 2010 07:58

What beats me about the Canada visa spat is that Kamal Nath just visited Canada a few months ago. If they wanted to make a point about human rights or lack of justice in India, that was the time to make it. And it isn't as if some Sikh groups hadn't reminded the Canadians that KN was ineligible to visit Canada.

Denying visas to low ranking people is like the behaviour of the small time crook who plys his trade relying on the fact that the authorities won't expend too much effort to nab him if the losses are small.

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 28 May 2010 08:11

Gentlemen, a noobie question, Plz indulge me.

What is it exactly that we gain by being a member of the Commonwealth? Aussies have no love lost for us, the Brits are in a league of their own, then there is Pakistan and now Canada.
What good this company does for us is beyond me.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 28 May 2010 08:28

US Citizen Siddharth Varadarajan on the visa issue:
http://beta.thehindu.com/opinion/column ... 439971.ece

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 28 May 2010 08:38

The Nandigram rapist goons and their yellow puppets are caught in a sticky wicket - their past actions in loudly cheering visa-denials by western nations on narrow political considerations has come back to haunt them..

lsunil · Post by **lsunil** » 28 May 2010 10:48

bart wrote:Going by the comments there either the Canadans (WTF is Canadia) have a severe infestation of Pakis (including Khalistanis) or they are major inbred retards - My general impression of Canadians were that they were Americans without the ignorance, gun culture and religious fundamentalism, surprised to find they are so ignorant of India.

Firangi's are chuppa rustums. They are very cautious about what they say on the internet. They will be "there selves" in private forums. But never in the open or even on an "open anonymous" medium. This can be treated as a trait. The russians are even bada chuppa rustums than these western firangi's. The chinese have a communication shortfall. It is interesting for me to see all of them come together on the WAB forum and converse together.

manish · Post by **manish** » 28 May 2010 11:20

Dileep wrote:What CAN we do, in reality?

I agree it is tough question, but many things can happen outside of diplomatic snubs too. Esp in the business domain, but the problem would be that we may end up cutting the nose to spite the face. But it may still be worth it.

For example, already whining Bombardier may suddenly find itself being asked to explain 'technical shortcomings' in its train sets. They may also find that they have actually violated hundreds of obscure rules that only babus know about. Mitsubishi ROTEM may find that they have new orders for metro train sets in place of Bombardier ones. RIM may be added to the telecom eqpt supplier's blacklist because it 'refused to cooperate' with intel agencies. Canadian exports may experience inexplicable delays at ports and airports while waiting to enter India. Canadians may suddenly find themselves failing to meet the selection criteria in deal after deal. Canadian babus transiting India might suddenly find themselves in possession of 'objectionable material'. And while we are at it, blacklist RCMP for collusion with the Kanishka bombers and hold them responsible for it.

Granted that the size of trade between the countries is relatively small, but we have got to get the message across to them if this is what they wish for. After all, supporting and providing safe haven to terrorists waging war against India is good enough grounds to dislike and retaliate against any country, let alone a relatively insignificant one like Canada. UKstan played this game for long, but we did not have enough leverage against them.

But Canada? What do we need them for? Their game of trying to shift the blame to bureaucrats and claiming that they are independent of the govt of canada reminds me of the paki excuse of non-state actors.