India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2018 06:53

Dipanker, quit your trolling. India did nothing to JT and he created his own issues.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby surinder » 25 Feb 2018 06:58

Rudradev wrote:Interesting.

Surinder ji attributes the snubbing of Trudeau not to an aversion for Khalistani terrorists, but to a "disdain for Sikhs" in general on the part of GOI and indeed PM Modi himself.

Now I'd like to ask Surinder ji something. It's reported that Trudeau wanted to visit Punjab but avoid meeting its CM, Captain Amarinder Singh.

CM Amarinder Singh is the elected leader of a state that is majority Sikh, with approximately 36 times as many Sikhs as there are in Canada. Trudeau did not want to meet Amarinder because Khalistanis in Canada do not like him.Trudeau was only compelled to meet him because "Sikh-disdaining" GOI threatened to withdraw permission for Trudeau to visit Punjab otherwise.

So Surinder ji, do you think Justin Trudeau's intent to snub CM Amarinder Singh is indicative of "Disdain for Sikhs" (in general) by the Canadian govt?

Or are the 18 million Sikhs in Punjab not worthy of your concern... and it is just the 500k TFTA Sikhs in Canada, indeed only the Khalistani supporters among them, whose sentiments you are rushing to defend against "disdain"?

Your answer (or lack of it) will expose the precise amount of Pakistaniyat underlying your position. Thank you.


It is interesting that I am getting accused of "Pakistaniyat," and of "propaganda", "rudest wake up call". stupid, and Khalistani propaganda. I have laid a critique of the GOI and the institutions setup by British, then passed on to Congress to nurture. I have not really seen a coherent rebuttal or logical counterpoints, (with couple of exceptions, namely ARShyam, Dipankar, and Rudradev).

I am afraid most of you are missing the point. By characterizing my points as originating from one of those despicable odious class of people or assigning me motives, you are missing the point and taking the easy way out.

To answer you question: I don't see how Trudeau not wanting to meet Amrinder is a disdain for Sikhs. I don't see the connection. In fact, t is actually odd that a visiting dignitary would be forced to meet a CM. Sikhs, including those in India, would be happy to see him visit the Golden Temple, dress in their clothes, wear the head cover, see him and his wife and kids do seva at the Golden Temple langar. I don't think they view Amrinder as a must-see and will take an affront to not meeting him.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Pulikeshi » 25 Feb 2018 07:01

Dipanker wrote:If you think India treatment of the visiting dignitary was appropriate , you are certainly entitled to it, but I don't have agree with that, I can have my own opinion my POV is that it was not right.

Also disagree that a $5T economy in the next 7/8/9/10 years should have anything to do with how India should treat a visiting dignitary now or in future.


Yes indeed - you have every right to have a wrong POV in my opinion :-)
$5T in 7yrs is what’s been suggested... but India as a potential great power does not need a lecturing Canada...
or a Nautanki from Canuk PM and family in India. Guess how much of those trillions is Canada’s share in trade with India?

Please direct your ire at terrorist supporting state and PM of Canada. Who under the garb of liberalism are really playing dirty vote bank politics!

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Feb 2018 07:03

Surinder

>> I have laid a critique of the GOI and the institutions setup by British, then passed on to Congress to nurture.

You have done nothing of the sort. You have made unwarranted, objectionable insinuations against India and Indians, and their representative, the GOI, accusing them of bigotry, clearly driven by your own personal biases and motives.

The only reason you have not received a warning for your odious behavior, is because of your past history of being an otherwise sane poster & whatever respect you earned via your posts.

Don't push it & abuse the Indian republic & the GOI using flimsy claims, it won't fly.

Your PM, visited India with a bunch of Khalistan supporters who have beenequivocating with regards to people like Atwal, outright criminals or those supported terrorism in India & committed all sorts of faux pas & blunders, which your own media is busy high-lighting.

Don't spin that as India having a problem with Sikhs. That sort of sectarianism is neither warranted nor invited.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Vips » 25 Feb 2018 07:55

Dipanker wrote:
surinder wrote:+ Humiliating foreign state heads as a way negotiating and executing foreign policy is not a norm. The only country that practices this effectively is China; and one most civilized countries do not like this way of dealings find it rightly repulsive. While host nations can/should make their point forcefully and assertively, but not by making a public spectacle of heaping humiliations on visiting heads of state and rubbing their face in this fashion. If that is how they feel, why have the visit in the first place?

+ The cold shoulder for Trudeau's crimes are to be contrasted with the importance and warm welcome afforded to visits of Pakistani PMs, Presidents (both elected and those who seized power). Contrast that with the attention and respect given to Musharraff after Kargil, or Zia or Bhutto or Sharif. Not one of them left India getting humiliated. Contrast this with the foot licking that India gives when Chinese premier visits, where we gladly subvert our own constitution to shut down all Tibet related protests for even their Olympic torch. How much Indian land does Canada occupy and compare that with POK and Aksai Chin occupations.

+ Modi has had no problem making a visit to Pakistan, attend Sharif's family wedding, sending tweets on good wishes to Sharif and Pakistan. All this for a terrorist nation that has openly talked of destroying all that is India, it has nukes ready to destroy India, it is sitting on Indian land, it has a lot of Indian blood on its hand and regularly spills more. Indian and Modi's slavishness to Pakistan be contrasted with attitude towards Canada. Compare the actual crimes of Trudeau's Canada with that of Pakistan!

+ Those who run foreign policy should realize that doling out such humiliations has implications beyond simply one visit. Such treatments send out unintended messages, but internally and externally.



+1

Agreed with these points. Very poor and inept handling, very uncharacteristic, and very unindian.


I can understand people having no self-respect or lacking self-esteem, but this is beyond pathetic.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 25 Feb 2018 08:27

To answer you question: I don't see how Trudeau not wanting to meet Amrinder is a disdain for Sikhs. I don't see the connection. In fact, t is actually odd that a visiting dignitary would be forced to meet a CM. Sikhs, including those in India, would be happy to see him visit the Golden Temple, dress in their clothes, wear the head cover, see him and his wife and kids do seva at the Golden Temple langar. I don't think they view Amrinder as a must-see and will take an affront to not meeting him.

The ghulami to the safed skin never fails to disappoint.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 25 Feb 2018 08:31

Yes and when he is provided the basic protocol it is termed as a snub.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 25 Feb 2018 09:00

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2018 ... ockey.html
Federal claim of Indian interference in Trudeau event is ‘dangerously irresponsible,’ says Andrew Scheer

OTTAWA—The suggestion by a senior government official that rogue political elements in India were behind the invitation of a Sikh extremist to an event with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is “dangerously irresponsible” and risks eroding diplomatic ties, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer says.

<snip>

The Times of India savaged the trip, calling it a “disaster that has little parallel in India’s recent diplomatic history.”

And it singled out this allegation as among the serious missteps that could have diplomatic repercussions.


“On Saturday, Indian government officials were angry at suggestions by Canadian officials that India was responsible for Khalistani terrorist Jaspal Atwal getting a visa to India and used his presence to embarrass Trudeau,” the newspaper wrote.

Instead, the Times noted that the Atwal invite “was part of a number of Trudeau’s own events that did not involve the Indian government at all.”

The Conservatives were already seeking an emergency meeting of a Commons’ public safety and security committee to review the Privy Council Office’s screening practices.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 25 Feb 2018 09:07

surinder, you are skating on very thin ice here. Watch your words.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 25 Feb 2018 09:07

I think the last report was quoting this TOI report.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 058415.cms
Why Trudeau’s disaster trip may trigger a reset in India-Canada ties

NEW DELHI: Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau’s visit was a disaster that has little parallel in India’s recent diplomatic history. But as the Canadian prime minister returned home on Saturday after almost a week of recurrent diplomatic missteps, ironically, it may have provided the opportunity to reset relations between Canada and India.

On Saturday, Indian government officials were angry at suggestions by Canadian officials that India was responsible for Khalistani terrorist Jaspal Atwal getting a visa to India and used his presence to embarrass Trudeau.

Trudeau, in his meeting with prime minister Narendra Modi, also complained that his visit had been shadowed by a single issue. Atwal got a visa because he was taken off the blacklist some years ago. But he was part of a number of Trudeau’s own events that did not involve the Indian government at all.

A prime ministerial visit to a foreign country for a week with a thin official component is always fraught with danger. In addition, moving the official meetings to the very end of the trip indicated that the government meetings were an after-thought. Most foreign leaders who throw in other events almost always front-load the official meetings, and then go on to business or tourism events.

Here, it was clear from the start that Trudeau came to India to score with his Sikh constituency back home — four out of the six cabinet ministers who travelled with him were Sikh, as were an overwhelming number of MPs who also travelled with him. Until the media barrage in India forced the Canadian side to change tack, Trudeau was not even ready to meet Amarinder Singh, chief minister of Punjab. Even the Canadian high commissioner’s official reception was a celebration of Punjab with the prime minister himself waltzing in on bhangra beats.

The most glaring misstep was not that Trudeau and his family dressed up in gaudy clothes — that could pass off as a celebration of Indian ethnic chic even if it was slightly over the top. It was Canada’s misunderstanding of the depth of feeling in India on the Khalistan issue. Canadian officials compared the Khalistan issue to the Quebec separatist movement — which counted a single death (of a minister, Pierre Laporte) as opposed to the tens of thousands who were killed at the hands of Khalistanis. Over the years, successive Indian governments have tried to get Canadian governments to change their minds.

Canada is the only country where the head of government is comfortable to be seen with Sikh separatists,” said senior government sources. There are Khalistani activists in the UK and Australia, but in no country is the government seen to be pandering to these forces. In the event, the joint statement issued at the end of the week-long visit, which named the Babbar Khalsa and International Sikh Youth Federation along with al-Qaida and ISIS, passed everyone by. There is no political cost either — both these groups have been banned in Canada. Officials said they had flagged the Khalistan problem to the Canadian side before the visit began, including at the NSA level during the last round of security talks.

As for Modi not showing up at the airport to greet Trudeau, first, there is reciprocity involved in these gestures — Netanyahu and UAE crown prince both received Modi at the airport. The Canadian expectation was unfounded also in view of the fact that the bilateral relationship is not deep enough to warrant that break from protocol.

The official discussions, when they happened, threw up a lot of good stuff — for instance, Canada got some much-needed comfort from India on pulses, as well as a separate pact on tackling terrorism. But it may take a long time to change perceptions here, particularly if Trudeau goes back to the same old after his return.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 25 Feb 2018 09:11

JT was provided every protocol by the book. There was no snub diplomatically. The PM breaks the protocol only for close friends of India. There are multiple foreign visits by various leaders of the world, but protocol is broken only for a few. The ASEAN leaders arrived during republic day celebration were accorded similar protocol. As were other European leaders including Theresa May when she visited India.

And as per reports, GoI wanted JT to first come to New Delhi for official engagements, but they were adamant on doing it at the end. And they spent 7 days in India of which only half-a-day was official engagement. Rest was for political consumption back home. The Canadian press has captured this accurately. It was a political visit for domestic consumption, not for improving India-Canada ties per se. Most of the negative articles first appeared in Canadian press. And all the goof-ups were from Canadian delegation themselves. And the gall to say someone in GoI setup Atwal, when the ties between JT & Atwal goes a long time back! The pictures of people in Canadian govt delegation being convicted of murder, calling on Modi to go home, promoting Khalistan while getting photographed with PM & his wife is there for all to see. Shame on Canadian govt for blaming GoI for their faux-pas!

Most of the damage was done by Canadian delegation themselves. The GoI went strictly by the book. For those saying GoI snubbed JT, provide proof or shut up. The world knows the shenanigans of JT now, and he has lowered his own image in India and Canada. Not even Canadian press believes their own govt on their accusations.

For the chest-beating communists for whom JT is a beacon of hope, everything he does is kosher. Its the same kind of behavior they have when they turn blind eye to sexual assaults by likes of Tejpal or Maoists for "greater cause". They are doing the same here trying to protect JT and alleging GoI snubbed him. While there is no proof of that!

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 25 Feb 2018 09:19

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/glo ... -politics/
Justin Trudeau's India troubles are rooted in Canadian minority politics

Those accustomed to seeing Canada sit atop international rankings of best-governed nations may be surprised to learn that a significant portion of Canadian democracy still has a decidedly crooked, 19th-century vibe. Since Canadian political parties operate on a “pay-to-play” basis — in which any voter who wishes to help nominate a politician for office must first sign a form and pay a membership fee — one of the most essential skills for any ambitious Canadian politico is an ability to sell large, but carefully targeted, numbers of party memberships to groups whose loyalty can be assured. This ordinarily includes friends, family members, employees, and coworkers. But, more controversially, it often includes religious congregations and immigrant or minority enclaves as well.

Canada’s legislature is remarkably diverse — the current parliament features more than three dozen foreign-born members (MPs), and an equally sizable caucus of visible minorities — but this diversity is not merely the product of a tolerant populace. Because Canada’s process of selecting candidates can reward the micro-targeting of small demographic groups over the general population, the backgrounds of MPs can be rather unrepresentative of the electoral districts they represent. As the progressive commentator Michael Adams, alongside co-author Andrew Griffith, noted in a post-mortem on Canada’s 2015 election, “most of the visible-minority MPs were elected in ridings where their own groups did not constitute a majority,” and added that “nine of the 47 visible minority MPs were elected in ridings where the voting population was less than a 20-per-cent visible minority.”

The diversity of Canada’s political class can thus tilt in ways that fail to paint an accurate picture of Canadian realities. Until Somali-born Ahmed Hussen was appointed as immigration minister early last year, the visible minorities in Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s cabinet — a cabinet that he bragged “looks like Canada” — were exclusively either South Asian or Middle Eastern, excluding (among others) Canada’s sizable East Asian and black communities.

Because the status quo remains superficially impressive — Who doesn’t like to see immigrants and minorities in positions of power? — it can be difficult to criticize. Given the lack of diversity that marked earlier generations of Canadian governments, in which a token “Italian” would seem generous, getting fussy about quotas can appear petty. Yet unbalanced representation born from a deeply flawed candidate-selection process can bring powerful political consequences, as the prime minister — if not the entire nation of India — is fast coming to learn.

Though Canadians of Indian heritage are estimated to comprise no more than 4% of the Canadian population, and Indo-Canadians of Sikh heritage about half that, Sikhs are extraordinarily well-represented in Canadian government, a fact easily attributable to the outsize role they play in Canadian party politics — even in communities where their numbers are not extraordinarily high. Trudeau’s current cabinet includes four Sikh ministers, more, he once boasted, than could be found at the cabinet level in India.

Such ministers often began their political careers winning over local associations of the Liberal Party where Sikhs — and thus Sikh political and cultural concerns — dominate. Defense Minister Harjit Singh Sajjan, for instance, won nomination for his Vancouver parliamentary seat in a bitter Sikh vs. Sikh battle that saw his opponents portray the decorated soldier as a closet supporter of “Khalistan” — the radical dream of a sovereign Sikh ethnonationalist state. Sajjan has repeatedly denied the charges, but is still often tarred by association, given his father was an active figure in the pro-Khalistan World Sikh Organization. The Khalistan question, in general, is often said to be a far livelier political debate in Canada than in India, and the worst pre-9/11 terrorist attack in North America — the downing of Air India Flight 182 — was plotted by Sikh militants in British Columbia.

In India itself, stories such as these seem to have congealed into increasingly suspicious stereotypes and conspiracy theories about Canada, many of which appeared disastrously confirmed this week during a visit to India by Trudeau. On Wednesday, it was revealed that the prime minister’s delegation included Jaspal Atwal, a Liberal Party activist from British Columbia who also happens to be a former member of the radical International Sikh Youth Federation convicted for a 1986 assassination attempt against a visiting Indian cabinet minister. Atwal had been invited by Randeep Sarai, a Sikh Liberal member of parliament (and considered a divisive figure in the community), and despite apologies, the episode now threatens to severely hamper Canadian relations with Narendra Modi’s nationalist government.

Multiculturalism has always brought foreign-policy consequences. There’s an old joke about American politicians having to make mandatory trips to the “three I’s” — Ireland, Italy, and Israel — and it is inevitable that immigrant-rich democracies will view the outside world through a lens informed by the memories and experiences of its foreign-born residents. The reverse, however, is also true: nations who have experienced net emigration will invariably have opinions on how the people who left have affected the character of their new home.

India is a country presenting tremendous opportunities for the west, both as an economic partner and critical geostrategic ally. Ottawa has often lazily assumed that, since Canada features a large share of Indian-born citizens and Indian-born politicians, it gives the country a natural edge in the contest to cozy up to this much-courted rising power. As Trudeau learned this week, alas, things aren’t always that simple.
Last edited by pankajs on 25 Feb 2018 09:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 25 Feb 2018 09:20

Dipanker wrote:
surinder wrote:


+1

Agreed with these points. Very poor and inept handling, very uncharacteristic, and very unindian.

Why am I not surprised? :roll:

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 25 Feb 2018 09:22

Rahul M wrote:
Did Canada’s obstruction of meet between radical Sikh groups and Ram Madhav in 2016 sour ties with India?
Failed November 2016 talks between radical Sikh groups and BJP leader Ram Madhav may not have been the only trigger. But it was among several incidents, key interlocutors involved in negotiations said, which contributed to the trust deficit between India...

<snip>

Much has already been made of the cold welcome accorded to Trudeau when he arrived in India on February 17 for an eight day visit, only half-a-day of which has been set aside for official engagements, including a meeting with Modi.
https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/did-canada-s-obstruction-of-meet-between-radical-sikh-groups-and-ram-madhav-in-2016-sour-ties-with-india/story-PWcWbNliRemlhCk6m4sBxJ.html

Thanks for sharing this. Goes to show the level of disdain GoI has for Sikhs. Right.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 25 Feb 2018 09:42

surinder wrote:
arshyam wrote:Also, how would you suggest GoI forcefully make the point in any other way?

Sorry, but your post sounds like a mix of a certain kind of propaganda pushed in by elements from across the border, coupled with a "how dare a brown guy stand up to a white milord"?


ARShyam,

GOI, like any country has many, many diplomatic avenues and channels to communicate its views and negotiate to get its ideas across. There are ambassadors meant for this type of talk. Foreign ministers and IFS officials often travel out and discuss these things. Heads of state talk to each other on phone. In the sidelines of numerous international forums there are numerous meetings. Governments also talk to each other through other third-part countries and entities. Public discussion is also initiated over issues like this. Heads of state and foreign ministers often also issue statements, give interview to lay out their policy. If after having done this, the necessary goodwill and understanding is created, then head of state visits are planned. The agenda of these trips are and the optics is managed to make sure that the aim is achieved. If the necessary goodwill did not exist, then Trudeau should not have invited.

Surinder-ji, kindly share your sources that say that GoI did NOT try doing any of what you suggest. India also took a calculated risk by making this statement publicly; anyone watching our foreign policy establishment would know that we would never openly snub people for the heck of it - that would be uncharacteristic and un-Indian. Our establishment if anything, is cautious and does not rush into things (see the criticism about our Maldives policy). So I don't buy your supposition (it will be one till you can share some facts that show otherwise) that we simply snubbed Canada for the heck of it, or as you put it, due to our "disdain for Sikhs".

Going by what's in the public domain, there has been a palpable dip in India-Canada relations after Trudeau took over - it's actually hard to miss given the excellent rapport Modi and Harper had. Then the incident with Sajjan's visit (Capt Singh refused to meet him) where GoI fully backed Capt Singh set the tone. Did Sajjan or Govt of Canada say something to address GoI's concerns then? There have been rumblings about our concerns with the new Canadian policy on anti-terror cooperation and the article Rahul M shared illustrates just how rocky the relationship had become and why. So to say that everything was hunky dory and Trudeau should have been given the red carpet is to completely ignore the way things have been moving. In fact, I was wondering why the heck Trudeau is even visiting? And I wasn't alone in asking that q.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby arun » 25 Feb 2018 09:47

Stephen Daisley of the UK’s Spectator on Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's visit to India :lol: :

The Canadian Prime Minister’s seven-day visit to India went down like an undercooked biriyani on the subcontinent.


It was less like a state visit and more like a weeklong audition for the next Sanjay Leela Bhansali movie. Here was Justin Trudeau, the progressive’s progressive, up to his pagṛi in cultural appropriation. At least he achieved his goal of bringing Indians and Canadians closer together: both have spent the past week cringing at this spectacle of well-meaning minstrelsy.


Trudeau’s problem is that he always agrees with the last good intention he encountered. He seems to have picked up his political philosophy from Saturday morning cartoons: by your powers combined, I am Captain Snowflake.


From here:

Justin Trudeau takes his Captain Snowflake act to India

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 25 Feb 2018 09:51

I am very satisfied the way JT is shown his place by Modi. This will bring his stock down in left liberal world. Canada is a repeat offender when it comes to providing sanctuary to anti india elements. They know it and they provoke us willfully. JT with his extreme stupidity stretching it too far.

India, Canada ties will still go strong, even at the expense of this uber political correct joker JT.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 25 Feb 2018 09:59

arshyam - it seems JT visted India just to appease minority back home..with no real inter state agenda. He was clearly on vacation + political campaign.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby arun » 25 Feb 2018 10:19

Seems Canada’s policy of permitting immigrants from the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan has resulted in Canada falling under the baleful spell of the conspiracy minded people originating in that Islamic Republic :P .

“Senior Government Official” of Canada sees an Indian Saazish :wink: in the invitation given by the Canadians to convicted Khalistani terrorist, Jaspal Atwal. Says “rogue political elements in India were behind the invitation:roll: .


The suggestion by a senior government official that rogue political elements in India were behind the invitation of a Sikh extremist to an event with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is “dangerously irresponsible” and risks eroding diplomatic ties, Conservative Leader Andrew Scheer says.

Scheer criticized the government’s damage control efforts that saw unnamed officials — perhaps one or more — suggest in some news reports that officials in India were somehow behind the embarrassing invitation of a convicted Sikh extremist, Jaspal Atwal, to an event with Trudeau during his India visit.


Federal claim of Indian interference in Trudeau event is ‘dangerously irresponsible,’ says Andrew Scheer : The Conservative leader challenged Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to either back up the anonymous claim or renounce it.
Last edited by arun on 25 Feb 2018 10:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 25 Feb 2018 10:20

abijitm saar, true. But do the hosts generally have a say in the non-official engagements of a visiting dignitary? I'd think so, given the security and protocol requirements. Point is, going forward, if the official engagement is thin we should not agree to such lengthy visits. After this disaster of a visit (more from the Canadian PoV than ours), future guests would understand that such a stance is for their own good :mrgreen:

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 25 Feb 2018 10:26

David Cameron had similar disastrous tour of India and he was adequately mocked in old blighty.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 25 Feb 2018 10:38

India can say No
Starts with Trudeau.


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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 25 Feb 2018 10:45


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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Feb 2018 11:11

putnanja wrote:JT was provided every protocol by the book. There was no snub diplomatically. The PM breaks the protocol only for close friends of India. There are multiple foreign visits by various leaders of the world, but protocol is broken only for a few. The ASEAN leaders arrived during republic day celebration were accorded similar protocol. As were other European leaders including Theresa May when she visited India.

And as per reports, GoI wanted JT to first come to New Delhi for official engagements, but they were adamant on doing it at the end. And they spent 7 days in India of which only half-a-day was official engagement. Rest was for political consumption back home. The Canadian press has captured this accurately. It was a political visit for domestic consumption, not for improving India-Canada ties per se. Most of the negative articles first appeared in Canadian press. And all the goof-ups were from Canadian delegation themselves. And the gall to say someone in GoI setup Atwal, when the ties between JT & Atwal goes a long time back! The pictures of people in Canadian govt delegation being convicted of murder, calling on Modi to go home, promoting Khalistan while getting photographed with PM & his wife is there for all to see. Shame on Canadian govt for blaming GoI for their faux-pas!

Most of the damage was done by Canadian delegation themselves. The GoI went strictly by the book. For those saying GoI snubbed JT, provide proof or shut up. The world knows the shenanigans of JT now, and he has lowered his own image in India and Canada. Not even Canadian press believes their own govt on their accusations.

For the chest-beating communists for whom JT is a beacon of hope, everything he does is kosher. Its the same kind of behavior they have when they turn blind eye to sexual assaults by likes of Tejpal or Maoists for "greater cause". They are doing the same here trying to protect JT and alleging GoI snubbed him. While there is no proof of that!



Any deviation from protocol is at the sole discretion of the Govt of India and is an honor specifically accorded by the PM personally.

No one can question it. Certainly not the so called guest or his entourage or even the nation to which he belongs. There seem to have been some bad optics as far as the run up to the visit and the administrative arrangements demanded by the visitors and the reluctance of the host nation to accept the same. It certainly looks like some dominant ethnic minority in the host nation may have muscled it's way into dominating the proceedings with a view to majorly embarrassing the GoI on Indian soil. A very bad miscalculation leading to an avoidable diplomatic fiasco.

any donkey in the universe including canuk donkeys can question Indian protocols. India doesn't mind. Why would some lightweight nation, not particularly friendly to India and obviously having an agenda of its own, like all nations must, worry about a third world country like India and her protocols, unless they thought that their nation was superior??.

It was an insult and an embarrassment for India to see their liberandu playboy PM prancing around our country in some really cheap bollywood inspired "ethnic" and tribal costumes, not understanding or respecting our ancient culture and civilization. His condescension and contempt for the natives who he thought would be blown away by such cheap theatrics, never mind where he thought his actual audience was, is apparent. It was like the whiteys using worthless beads and baubles to con the native americans in the early days.

If there was a message in there, somewhere, I am sure that the concerned people have received it loud and clear, specially the canucks.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 25 Feb 2018 11:11


yup, GOI goes out of its way for trackII diplomacy with moderate khalistanis (perhaps to bolster their 'institutional disdain' of sikhs :roll: ), relaxes visa rules for a number of them on humanitarian grounds and #KanuckPappu sabotages that effort in kanuckistan.
says a lot.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 25 Feb 2018 11:39

IMO to me it looks that In all the controversy Edmonton’s MP Sohi Amarjeet handled himself with grace during Trudeau visit to India.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 25 Feb 2018 11:46

I wouldn't be so quick. He was one of those peddling the FoE BS just before the visit.
Last edited by pankajs on 25 Feb 2018 11:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 25 Feb 2018 11:47

surinder wrote:To answer you question: I don't see how Trudeau not wanting to meet Amrinder is a disdain for Sikhs. I don't see the connection. In fact, t is actually odd that a visiting dignitary would be forced to meet a CM. Sikhs, including those in India, would be happy to see him visit the Golden Temple, dress in their clothes, wear the head cover, see him and his wife and kids do seva at the Golden Temple langar. I don't think they view Amrinder as a must-see and will take an affront to not meeting him.

India is a federal system. It is basic courtesy to visit CM when PM/PS of another country officially visits an Indian state. So, what this joker was thinking when he met Fadnavis when he visited Maharashtra and then purposely did not want to visit Amarinder when he goes to Punjab? Was he trying to insult an Indian CM on Indian soil? And we know EXACTLY what he was trying to do. It was not some stroke of bad luck or bad management. He has a history with Amarinder. He denied him rallies in Canada and there were strong words exchanged. So, if JT thinks he can walk over an Indian CM on Indian soil just to please his khalistani voters back home then oh boy he is living in a 'pot' state of mind. He absolutely cannot use India for his political campaign at the expense of Indian CM. That is rude and arrogance at extreme.

And note that this is BJP. This is a nationalist GoI. They will never allow to take political difference precedence over national dignity, unlike Congress who were more than happy to make political mileage at the expense of then Gujarat CM, and didn't miss single opportunity to humiliate a democratically elected Indian CM internationally.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 25 Feb 2018 11:57

http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnist ... n-movement
FATAH: All Trudeau needed to do was denounce the Khalistan movement

But Atwal was not the only openly pro-Khalistani Canadian on the trip.

Meet Manvir Singh Saini, who was part of Trudeau’s media delegation and accompanied him to all official events and did attend the dinner from where Atwal was uninvited.

Saini, who claims to work for a BC TV channel, was seen in 2015 protesting against Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi who was visiting Canada at the time. Saini held a banner that referred to the Indian prime minister as a “terrorist” and others that said, “Modi, you are not welcome in Canada” and “India out of Khalistan.”

What is worth noting is that not a single member of the large contingent of Sikh MPs who accompanied Trudeau raised any alarm at the presence of these two gentlemen. They surely all knew about Atwal and Saini and their anti-India, pro-Khalistan views, but chose to remain silent until Atwal’s identity and past became public.

This is the Canada Trudeau wanted to present in India and India saw it and did not like one bit. It seems the only problem is that India was expected to quietly accepted such *insults* but it did not. It politely declined to have any of it, by making the visit low key and go strictly by protocols, and some folks do not like that.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 25 Feb 2018 12:15

http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnist ... egic-trust
GUEST COLUMN: Trudeau and India ― the loss of strategic trust [Abhijit Iyer-Mitra is Senior Fellow at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies, based out of India.]
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now nearly finished what has proven to be a rocky visit to India – one that shed some unexpected light on the deep hidden mistrust creeping into Canada-India relations on his watch, which could destroy decades of patient diplomacy by both sides.

What does “strategic trust” mean in tangible terms? Simply put, it is the knowledge of each other’s motives, and faith in the good intentions of the other. Easy to scorn, it is the pillar on which transactional and deep strategic ties are built.

<snip>

Under former prime minister Stephen Harper, Canada achieved in four years what took India and the U.S. 18 years. The sticking points were Canada’s mistrust of Indian nuclear ambitions and India’s dismay at Canada’s then bipartisan wink-wink-nudge-nudge approach towards terrorism on Indian soil, epitomized by the Air India (AI182) bombing. Initiating both the perjury trial of Inderjit Reyat to overcome double jeopardy laws, and a public inquiry into the entire sordid affair, the Harper government’s actions served as a signal to the Indian government that the ambiguity on terror was to end. This was followed up with a robust intelligence sharing architecture to ensure the slow but systematic build up of institutional trust. On the nuclear front, the Harper government enthusiastically supported the India exception at the Nuclear Suppliers Group in 2008, concluding its own bilateral nuclear pact with India in 2010.

Contrast this with Trudeau, a man with the unique ability to unite India’s left and right in a common dislike for him. The left-leaning Congress Party’s supporters detest him for being an enabler of Khalistani terrorism. The right-leaning BJP supporters revile him for being a practitioner of the very worst forms of identity politics. And Trudeau has taken it on himself to prove them both right. His ascent to the top of the Liberal Party was powered by the disenfranchisement of Sikh moderates who allege that Trudeau rigged internal elections to favour the violent loony fringe. This fringe is exactly what is represented in his cabinet, ministers who passively acquiesce to terror through omission and diversion.

Worse still is Trudeau’s politics of intersectional victimhood, welding a militant alliance of failure, paranoia and resentment that once again raised the spectre of Khalistani cooperation with Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and normalized ex-ISIS Canadians. Sources in various Indian Intelligence agencies are now actively tracking an increasing tempo of such meetings. Surprisingly, none of these cues have come from the existing intelligence sharing arrangements between the two countries. Indeed how is an Indian interlocutor meant to raise such issues when his opposite number may very well be a person of interest empowered by the Trudeau government? Trudeau’s too smart by half, diversion of his visits to events and places that venerate mass murdering terrorists as being a “freedom of speech” issue, have given the impression that this drift has tacit approval from the very top.

Thankfully, Trudeau hasn’t touched the nuclear agreement between the two countries yet, but clearly his actions so far do not bode well for the bilateral relationship. Indian intelligence no longer seem to trust in a free flowing conversation with their Canadian counterparts, and this suspicion is slowly beginning to infect the nuclear domain as well. The image of Canada in India is consequently sliding back to the dark days of the 1980s where electoral success on Ottawa depended on turning a blind eye to bombs in Amritsar. The question now is where is the point of no return.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 25 Feb 2018 12:35

Bart S wrote:
Kashi wrote:
Are you sure about it? Their actions and words suggest anything but.


Agree with this. Maybe fence sitters are, but most of the vocal khalistanis are more Paki than the Pakis (with the movement having been given life support and sponsored by the ISI no less).


In my experience, only the really hard core Khalistanis, and these are in leadership positions of their organizations, are Paki.. But when they unload their bile, the moderate elements in their community are not able to calm things because of lack of closure about 84. This is the reason they get much more traction than they should in the NRI Sikh community.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 25 Feb 2018 12:38

Amber G. wrote:IMO to me it looks that In all the controversy Edmonton’s MP Sohi Amarjeet handled himself with grace during Trudeau visit to India.


Amarjeet Sohi was in a TADA prison for two and a half years.. Turdeau has really filled his cabinet and liberal party with 'top shelf' talent. :roll:

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 25 Feb 2018 12:50

Justin Trudeau became more 'Indian' than Indians but fails to impress amid Khalistan row


Justin Trudeau became more 'Indian' than Indians but fails to impress amid Khalistan row

Bikram Vohra Feb 24, 2018

We should have fallen head over heels in love with Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. He was so much like us on this visit. We customarily love this sort of schmaltz and are so good at going the whole nine yards what with our predilection for classical music and dancing girls and flinging rose water and planting tikkas at visitors from foreign shores.

Justin thought this was the done thing and went for it. He was more Indian than the Indians, just a step short from owning an attaché case with a leather covering placed dustily on top of the cupboard and a set of three wooden ducks on the wall for décor with a coir mat carrying the legend ‘swagatham’at the door.

Except there was no welcome. We almost imagined him doing aarti when he finally met Prime Minister Narendra Modi. With marigold flowers and incense sticks. It would have gone down well with his swiftly changing fancy dress attire but somewhere in all this, it left us all cold because he was so desperately falling over himself to be Indian that he not only put everyone off but it looked suspiciously like he was patronising us. The line between a polite and involved visitor imbibing cultural nuances and the white man easing his burden with a ‘let’s dress up’ folks and ‘identify’ with the natives is very thin. The genius lies in knowing when to stop. Justin went Hollywood, beat the drums, yummed over Indian food and would probably have embarrassed the Canadians with so much nativity done ostensibly to please the Sikh vote bank in Canada what with his Indianness being beamed back home.

It was just too too much of healthy breakfast food wholesomeness which might have made Norman Rockwell delighted but left Indians mystified. What was he doing going ‘desi’ on us?

There are three reasons for the general indifference from the government and people. Justin is just too fey and coy and cute and unreal. At the outset, it became a bit ludicrous what with the family joining in and all over Indian people wondering who is this guy, what’s his problem. The result: mildly offensive and certainly not edifying for a world leader. It was so reminiscent of those frontiersmen smoking the peace pipe with native Red Indians and eating their food with fake relish before selling them glass beads.

In Justin’s case, the second strike was a weak gift bag of political goodies. There was nothing powerful in the agenda and the Indian government’s transparent indifference detracted from two major democracies and their traditional closeness what with Canada home to nearly two million people of Indian origin and over 25,000 fetching up to chase a faux American dream every year. Fact is Modi didn’t even fetch up at the airport to greet the Trudeau family. The small but significantly wealthy section of the 4,70,000 Sikh population in Canada profess to support the formation of Khalistan and the Trudeau administration allows the group to have its say. Add to that the snafu of giving a visa to Jaspal Atwal one of four Canadian Indians who in 1991 shot and killed Malkiat Singh Sidhu, a then-member of Punjab's cabinet. Trudeau created a furore when he attended a function in Toronto last year where a pro-Khalistan ambience was rife. Then Sophi Trudeau added to the awkward impasse by being photographed next to Atwal ostensibly unaware of who he was. How this ‘terrorist’ got an Indian visa calls for a separate inquiry.

After which we observe the third dimension. The artificial de-icing with prime minister swinging into a heavy-duty hug mode only underscored the deliberate cold shoulder. Too little too late. With a very light schedule in mutual treaties and MOU’s the seven-day trip has had the consistency of walking in treacle: sticky sweet and cloying and missing substance.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Bart S » 25 Feb 2018 15:34

sudeepj wrote:
Amber G. wrote:IMO to me it looks that In all the controversy Edmonton’s MP Sohi Amarjeet handled himself with grace during Trudeau visit to India.


Amarjeet Sohi was in a TADA prison for two and a half years.. Turdeau has really filled his cabinet and liberal party with 'top shelf' talent. :roll:


My understanding (could be wrong) is that he is more of a Commie/JNU type rather than Khalistani.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 25 Feb 2018 18:24

>>But do the hosts generally have a say in the non-official engagements of a visiting dignitary? I'd think so, given the security and protocol requirements.

Yes, hosts do have more than a say, but it is usually a matter of give and take - and in my understanding India is much more accommodating than most (though reciprocity is carefully monitored. We NEVER forget slights, and payback is sublimely calibrated - all governments). In the case of this visit, as per all media articles, the Canadian government got what they wanted. GOI had suggested starting off with the official part, but the GoC preferred otherwise.

The only thing where GoI put it's foot down was on the matter of meeting the CM of Punjab, Amarinder Singh. We would have put our foot down on that whoever was CM, it just so happened that in this instance it was an opposition party leader - who has developed a healthy modus vivendi with the ruling party. Protocol does not permit a foreign head of state visiting a particular state and deliberately NOT meeting the CM. If there is a convivial arrangement, that's another thing. This was nothing more than a performance for the Canadian Khalistanis. GoI would not have any of that.

On to the matter of Modi not meeting Trudeau at the airport, the facts have already been cleared by different articles. The matter is reciprocal. When heads of state welcome Modi at their airports, he returns the favour. Nor had he invited Trudeau to Gujarat, which is why he did not go there with him. If Modi had, he would have. No one can view any of this as a breach of protocol, and all this snub business is the usual soft-naxalite media hype aimed mainly at showing #Blow2Modi wherever they can. Pure rubbish.

The Canadians know exactly what happened here. India will not rub it in their faces officially. Far from it. There is no reason to disturb the potential for a highly synergistic and close relationship. However, Ottawa must realise that (their own domestic politics notwithstanding), dragging that into India as political signalling to a home constituency is not on.

BTW, the much more sensible former premier Stephen Harper was in India a few weeks ago, on a private visit I think. He met Modi, as a friend.

>>Chetak above put it succinctly: "It certainly looks like some dominant ethnic minority in the host nation may have muscled it's way into dominating the proceedings with a view to majorly embarrassing the GoI on Indian soil".

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Falijee » 25 Feb 2018 20:35

From someone, who knows Canadian Minority Politics- Tarek Fatah !

FATAH: All Trudeau needed to do was denounce the Khalistan movement.

FATAH: All Trudeau needed to do was denounce the Khalistan movement
Tarek Fatah- Toronto Sun

By now, you’ve no doubt read how a convicted Canadian Sikh terrorist Jaspal Atwal was invited to dinner with Prime Minister Trudeau and would have been a guest had it not been for my colleague Candice Malcolm and CBC’s Terry Milewski breaking the story.
But Atwal was not the only openly pro-Khalistani Canadian on the trip. Meet Manvir Singh Saini, who was part of Trudeau’s media delegation and accompanied him to all official events and did attend the dinner from where Atwal was uninvited. In my opinion, the Liberal Party Of Canada, in its quest for the ethnic South Asian votes has been hijacked by the pro Khalistani Sikhs and the pro-Pakistani Muslims . Some of his cabinet ministers are out and out "agents" of "Khalistan" or Pakistan. !
Saini, who claims to work for a BC TV channel, was seen in 2015 protesting against Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi who was visiting Canada at the time. Saini held a banner that referred to the Indian prime minister as a “terrorist” and others that said, “Modi, you are not welcome in Canada” and “India out of Khalistan.” The British Columbia province of Canada is a hotbed of pro-Khalistani Sikhs and "temple politics" !
What is worth noting is that not a single member of the large contingent of Sikh MPs who accompanied Trudeau raised any alarm at the presence of these two gentlemen. They surely all knew about Atwal and Saini and their anti-India, pro-Khalistan views, but chose to remain silent until Atwal’s identity and past became public. Saini was exposed by the Delhi newspaper, Indian Express, but his presence went unreported in Canada.
rudeau has now left India for home, ending a family vacation :D that at times was a state visit that may very well go down as the most disastrous exercise in diplomacy in Canadian history. Some of the "images" will surely be used by his Party in the next Federal Election :mrgreen:
Visiting India with a focus solely on one community and province, i.e. Punjab, at the cost of such major metropolitan regions as Chennai and Calcutta and historical sites ... Many Canadians and Americans too equate India with Punjab only !
This is all now in play because of the NDP’s Jagmeet Singh, who is even more radical in his views about India than any stalwart Sikhs in Trudeau’s caucus. The "rising star" of Canada's NDP Party :mrgreen:
To those Canadians who are not Sikh, but of Greek or Irish background, Quebecois or Aboriginal, Hindu or Buddhist, Tamil or Chinese, it seems none of us counted as fellow Canadians.
Over the years, Canadian politics has been sinking deeper and deeper into the sinkhole of “identity politics” where not just riding nominations can be grabbed, but entire political parties can be hijacked.
If Prime Minister Trudeau had been the CEO of Canada Inc., a transnational conglomerate, the board of directors would have fired him for his inept leadership and for sullying the brand name “Canada.” :D
It was not just Trudeau’s soft approach towards Sikh extremists and his inability to “condemn” or denounce the Khalistan terrorist movement that would disqualify him as prime minister. Here we had a Prime Minister who did not know the age of Canada and who bungled trade figures with a straight face. All image because of the "Trudeau" name. Very little substance. !
On Feb. 22, while addressing Indian businessmen, Trudeau said: “Our countries both marked some big milestones. You celebrated the 70th Anniversary of Indian Independence, and we celebrated the 100th Anniversary of Canadian Confederation.” Except, last year Canada actually celebrated 150 years of Confederation, not 100.
After a meeting with the heads of major Indian business corporations on Feb 20, Trudeau claimed Indian companies were going to invest $1 billion into Canada, creating 5,800 jobs. But that was not true.As Omar Sachedina of CTV tweeted, Trudeau had greatly exaggerated the Indian investment in Canada, leading the PMO to issue a correction:..
Barkha Dutt, one of India’s outstanding journalists, who rarely suffers fools, ripped into the Canadian prime minister in Thursday’s Washington Post: “Trudeau has come across as flighty and facetious. His orchestrated dance moves and multiple costume changes in heavily embroidered kurtas and sherwanis make him look more like an actor on a movie set or a guest at a wedding than a politician who is here to talk business. Suddenly, all that charisma and cuteness seem constructed, manufactured and, above all, not serious.”Dutt concluded her stinging piece with this parting advice: “So next time you come to India, Prime Minister Trudeau, do try and leave the terrorists — and the wedding kurtas — at home.” :lol:
All Trudeau had to do to make his state visit a success was to utter the following six words when he first met Indian journalists on arrival: “Canada denounces the Khalistan movement.”But he couldn’t and wouldn’t. There was Jagmeet Singh waiting for that to happen.

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby panduranghari » 25 Feb 2018 22:16

arshyam wrote:Why am I not surprised? :roll:


:D

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Falijee » 25 Feb 2018 22:24

Subramanian Swamy
‏Verified account @Swamy39
9h9 hours ago

PM Trudeau’s delegation member met me at my residence and explained Canadian stand on Khalistan. I asked this be stated in their Parliament :D

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby rgosain » 25 Feb 2018 22:31

Huge amounts of Canada's Real Estate is now owned by the PRC either directly or indirectly. The following article in the LOndon Times illustrates what has happened in Australia, but the same can be said even more of Canada.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/australia-has-become-china-s-puppet-state-says-clive-hamilton-in-silent-invasion-wg7269rw8
It is therefore not surprising that Trudeau will follow policies that are seemed to be influenced by the PRC such as being sympathetic to terrorism directed against India

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Re: India-Canada, Mexico and South America: News and Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 25 Feb 2018 22:41

That's disgusting if true, that Chinese economic influence in Canada is being used to undermine India somewhat. Obviously, there would be no directives to this end, mentioning "Chinese owned real estate", so it's got to be pure pandering.


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