Treatment of Indians Abroad

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 04 Jan 2010 21:12

Any Indian who goes abroad faces racism at least once. Every one of us learns from peers how to cope and how to avoid that. Somehow this topic does not seem to have come up on BRF, but I start this topic because today there are two news items of Indians abroad. One is about a stowaway on an Air India jet escaping from KSA, and the other is the random murder of a 21 year old Indian in Australia - coming after a series of race attacks in Australia.

Indian workers sold like cattle in Saudi Arabia: Stowaway
JAIPUR: Habib Hussain of Moradabad, who hid in a toilet on an Air India flight from Saudi Arabia to return to his own country, says he did so for his two children, his pregnant wife, and an ailing mother. After his bizarre experience, Habib says he has realised that `aadhi roti' (half a piece of bread) at home is better than one in an alien land. He also said Indian labour is sold like cattle in that country.

He had sold his two `bigha' land for Rs 1.25 lakh and left behind just about Rs 11,000 for his family after paying the agent. He now tearfully says, ``There was no point in staying in Saudi. I just had to return. My wife was two months pregnant when I left and will have a baby any time now. My family was hungry here; I was hungry there. I was better off earning Rs 80 a day and feeding my family rather than living on a promise of Rs 15,000-20,000 and not getting a paisa


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/446 ... india.html
An Indian youth was today stabbed in Australia, in the first case of casualty in a series of vicious attacks on the community members, prompting a strong reaction from India which said such incidents could have a "bearing" on bilateral ties.


21-year-old Nitin Garg, who migrated from Punjab and had permanent residency in Australia, was stabbed in the abdomen in a park while on his way to fast food joint Hungry Jack's restaurant, where he worked part-time.

He staggered into the restaurant and pleaded for help before collapsing.
Garg, who had on a previous occasion been beaten up by a group of men at the Newport Railway Station, was taken to the Royal Melbourne Hospital, where he succumbed.


I think it may be a good idea to document firsthand accounts of racism and discrimination and track how Indians are treated abroad. Even if SM Krishna wants to sound like an ineffective wimp we have to start waking up.

Does the Indian government issue guidelines about racism just like firangis get guidelines about India? Have any Indians put up online info about racism in various countries like a "hitchiker's guide"?

Yudhajit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 57
Joined: 24 Aug 2009 11:16

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Yudhajit » 04 Jan 2010 21:53

Indians can't claim to be victims of racism because Indian is not a race. I've seen quite a few firangis say that.

rajpa
BRFite
Posts: 408
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 09:35
Location: Chennai

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby rajpa » 04 Jan 2010 22:47

from the firangi's perspective, they are a race (white) .. indians are not their race.. (sdre?).. so it is racism..

archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6822
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby archan » 04 Jan 2010 22:50

Gotta love BR. Everytime someone starts a thread on a serious topic, out come nitpickers with their smart-musharrafed comments! :lol:

Manas
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 46
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Manas » 04 Jan 2010 23:38

Good topic.

My experience (without boring folks with too much details).

1) I have seen/experienced racial profiling/prototyping especially in Germany.
More specifically with Lufthansa. Granted they are an efficient Airline but
they seem to mete out 2nd class treatment to Indians while raking in
the huge profits from their Indian origin passengers/operations.

2) I have also seen/experienced 2nd class treatment from Indian airport
(CISF) personnel. One set of rules for the white man and another set
for Indians. Kind of open discrimination in one's own country by
fellow country men.

I have kind of concluded that unless Indians treat fellow citizens with dignity and
respect we can't expect fair treatment in foreign lands by foreign citizens.

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3172
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby vera_k » 04 Jan 2010 23:45

Speaking of airlines, there have been frequent reports about Air France on the lines of the one below. My cousin (US passport holder) saw a similar incident first hand in Paris on a trip to India last year.

Indian fliers accuse Air France of racial bias

derkonig
BRFite
Posts: 952
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 00:51
Location: Jeering sekular forces bhile Furiously malishing my mijjile @ Led Lips Mijjile Malish Palish Parloul

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby derkonig » 04 Jan 2010 23:53

Let us also not forget about how the govt. of India treats Indians travelling abroad. Case in point, Indian students are getting brutally murdered in Australia, but not a peep from the raging insomniac MMS, but one terrorist Hanif gets caught & MMS can't sleep at night.
Last edited by Rahul M on 05 Jan 2010 00:35, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: warning for unsubstantiated insinuation that an Indian citizen was a terrorist, when he had been completely cleared by law.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jan 2010 00:05

derkonig wrote:Let us also not forget about how the govt. of India treats Indians travelling abroad. Case in point, Indian students are getting brutally murdered in Australia, but not a peep from the raging insomniac MMS, but one terrorist Hanif gets caught & MMS can't sleep at night.

was hanif ever proven to be guilty of terrorism ? if not then why are you insinuating against him ?
what MMS did in case of hanif was mostly right, his not doing the same for other cases doesn't make hanif guilty, it makes MMS guilty. it certainly doesn't give you the right to pronounce judgement on a person who was cleared of all charges.
this is yet another example of Indians not respecting other Indians on some petty grounds.

btw, I would expect you to either come up with proof in support of your statement or to edit it yourself before the 24 hr edit window expires.

derkonig
BRFite
Posts: 952
Joined: 08 Nov 2007 00:51
Location: Jeering sekular forces bhile Furiously malishing my mijjile @ Led Lips Mijjile Malish Palish Parloul

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby derkonig » 05 Jan 2010 00:20

Rahul M wrote:
derkonig wrote:Let us also not forget about how the govt. of India treats Indians travelling abroad. Case in point, Indian students are getting brutally murdered in Australia, but not a peep from the raging insomniac MMS, but one terrorist Hanif gets caught & MMS can't sleep at night.

was hanif ever proven to be guilty of terrorism ? if not then why are you insinuating against him ?
what MMS did in case of hanif was mostly right, his not doing the same for other cases doesn't make hanif guilty, it makes MMS guilty. it certainly doesn't give you the right to pronounce judgement on a person who was cleared of all charges.
this is yet another example of Indians not respecting other Indians on some petty grounds.

btw, I would expect you to either come up with proof in support of your statement or to edit it yourself before the 24 hr edit window expires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamed_Haneef
Read more about his glorious track record especially the part about his chat transcripts. No sane person will call this guy clean. He is free coz god only knows what kind of deal sekoolaar MMS must have cut with the Oz govt. I strongly support the GoI standing up against harassment of Indians abroad, but I condemn any partiality on the part of the GoI. If MMS could lose sleep over Hanif being a guest of the OZ state, why is there such a muted response from the GoI when innocent Indians are being murdered there? Where is all that pain & anguish & loss of sleep?
Last edited by Rahul M on 05 Jan 2010 00:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: warned for unsubstantiated insinuation that GOI cut a deal with a foreign govt to free a terrorist.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jan 2010 00:34

yes, please read it yourself. it was alleged and that particular piece of evidence was severely criticized for it's selective quotation and misrepresentation of facts. the conclusions of this should suffice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamed_Ha ... and_Report

He is free coz god only knows what kind of deal sekoolaar MMS must have cut with the Oz govt.

this is yet another unfounded allegation. you are alleging that GOI cut a deal with a foreign govt to free a terrorist (since by implication he won't have been freed otherwise).

very well, I asked you to retract one case of insinuation, you respond with another. warnings for both cases then.

If MMS could lose sleep over the Hanif saga, why is there such a muted response from the GoI when innocent Indians are being murdered there? Where is all that pain & anguish & loss of sleep?

again, that is MMS' fault, it does not make hanif guilty.

ss_roy
BRFite
Posts: 286
Joined: 15 Nov 2008 21:48

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby ss_roy » 05 Jan 2010 00:37

BINGO! Those who do not like themselves cannot expect others to treat them with dignity.

I have kind of concluded that unless Indians treat fellow citizens with dignity and
respect we can't expect fair treatment in foreign lands by foreign citizens.

bart
BRFite
Posts: 712
Joined: 04 Jan 2008 21:33

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby bart » 05 Jan 2010 01:01

derkonig wrote: why is there such a muted response from the GoI when innocent Indians are being murdered there?



Boss, FWIW the statement by SM Krishna was pretty strongly worded. If you google the Aus media articles most of them are whining about how blunt the message was.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby RamaY » 05 Jan 2010 01:15

One should appreciate an individual’s quest to do better for him/family against all odds.

In the process they are willing to go to great lengths, such as selling the little fixed-assets they have. What is impacting these well-natured hard-working commons is

1. Lack of Education – Do not know/learn about the labor/immigration policies of the working environment/society
2. Corruption – One’s (individuals) willingness to buy their way to Dubai/Gulf etc. In almost all instances significant amounts (compared to the individual’s financial background) are paid to the agents to get preferential treatment (advanced visa, job etc)
3. Lack of clear labor procedures – for skilled/non-skilled workers. No govt nodal agency that can help these individuals and ensure that they are not cheated for false jobs etc.
4. Civic Infrastructure – Lack of records pertaining to names/details of laborers, agents, travel details, passport details, employers etc. GOI could have influenced the concerned gulf states to issue special ID cards for these individuals and safe keep their passports in Indian Embassy.


GOI is busy tangling itself with nonsensical issues, instead of streamlining processes for people who are earning precious foreign remittences.

ShyamSP
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2552
Joined: 06 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby ShyamSP » 05 Jan 2010 01:24

ss_roy wrote:BINGO! Those who do not like themselves cannot expect others to treat them with dignity.

I have kind of concluded that unless Indians treat fellow citizens with dignity and
respect we can't expect fair treatment in foreign lands by foreign citizens.



When Telengana vadis want to suppress other Indian citizens' rights and entitlements and our Indian government is encouraging (at least not doing anything), what good is expecting some other country doing anything about some goons there killing their non-citizens.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby negi » 05 Jan 2010 01:38

:lol:

pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4129
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby pgbhat » 05 Jan 2010 01:41

seriously......on this thread? :shock: :rotfl:

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3985
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby hnair » 05 Jan 2010 03:49

ss_roy wrote:BINGO! Those who do not like themselves cannot expect others to treat them with dignity.

I have kind of concluded that unless Indians treat fellow citizens with dignity and
respect we can't expect fair treatment in foreign lands by foreign citizens.


Oh boy.

before y'all cut your own wrists, let us wait and watch how other people, who are known to mistreat their own citizens get treated when they travel

eg: Aussies (who mistreat aborigines), Americans (cases of profiling their own citizens at airports, traffic checks, city zoning etc), Norwegians (who till recently, used to forcibly sterilize their citizens of Indian origin, the Romas and yet hand out Nobel Peace prizes), arabs (who treat Bedouins extremely bad) and PLA/party types (about 1 billion plus lesser people of China).

Here is a word that might be of interest to this thread: Antiziganizm. There are a lot of dirt that gets pushed under plush carpets. It is time we start taking a long look a these issues.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 06:50

The moralistic note of "Do unto others as you would have other do unto you" is itself typically Indian - but nobody else bothers about all that.

What I would really like to see is a country by country guide of how Indians can expect to be treated and what, if anything can be offered to travellers/students in terms of guidance about behavior (if necessary) or legal recourse or help.

Last night I saw a detailed discussion of what happens in Australia on TV but not a chirp about that chap from Saudi. India politicians, intellectuals and a whole lo of others spend endless hours debating freedom of religion in India but not a chirp about Saudi Arabia. The reason why I find this mind boggling (especially for BRF) is that we keep on talking of how we must "expand our influence"

Expanding our influence involves demanding the freedoms we have in India in other nations as well including Saudi bloody Arabia. Saying that KSA is a different sovereign nation with its own laws is akin to saying "Oh me? I treat women well. But my neighbor Cocky is a rapist. This is his tendency, and as a free individual he should be allowed to be himself".

Living in the UK I discovered that my linguistic ability in English seemed to shield me from some (but not all) racist situations when other Indians would get discriminated. The rhetorical argument that Indians are not a race and therefore racism cannot occur is an interesting one. The same argument can be applied if I call someone an idiot. If he does not consider himself an idiot he should not feel offended in any way.

The point is not the offence caused to the person who gets the label, but the offensiveness of the person applying the label. In other words racism has two components - one is the attitude of the person being racist, which is wrong and the other is the attitude of the person being called a racist which can be right or wrong.

Regarding the latter, one possible reason for Indians not being too bothered about racism against other Indians is that we do not think other Indians are as well spoken or well behaved as we are. The more British my accent the higher up I am and the Gujju who is "wearing sleepers on his feet and raping up parcels in his shop" is not displaying propah behavior and I am scathing of him myself. From what I hear this seems to be happening in Australia where long term residents are not speaking up against the attacks. I believe there was a hint of this on this forum as well.

If true that makes a very very interesting reading of Indian behavior. Indians went abroad in the past as servants and slaves leaving behind drudgery and were too keen to conform to what Bwana wanted. But those attitudes are changing. Indians are paying money to Bwana nowadays and expect better treatment.

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3172
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby vera_k » 05 Jan 2010 07:30

shiv wrote:Regarding the latter, one possible reason for Indians not being too bothered about racism against other Indians is that we do not think other Indians are as well spoken or well behaved as we are. The more British my accent the higher up I am and the Gujju who is "wearing sleepers on his feet and raping up parcels in his shop" is not displaying propah behavior and I am scathing of him myself. From what I hear this seems to be happening in Australia where long term residents are not speaking up against the attacks. I believe there was a hint of this on this forum as well.


What I have gathered is that Australia has long had a nasty rep - it was a country to be avoided unless you had no other option. It follows then that those who have gone there in the past had to steel themselves and survive in a hostile environment. Those people would not see much amiss since they would have built a high threshold of tolerance.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 07:43

Fractal Recursivity can be explained as "The colonised takes on the language and attitudes of the colonizer and uses that on his own compatriots."

Now if you look at the "classical description" of the Brit coloniser ("Burra Sahib") - you find that after Macaulay two categories of Indian were created. One category were those who learned English well and got government jobs ("Chota sahib"). The rest were the natives who spoke the vernacular.

Until the independence struggle got off there was a very interesting relationship of fractal recursivity between the three groups. Burra Sahib did not change his attitudes or behavior. Chota sahib was rewarded for mimicking the language and attitudes of Burra Sahib. So the attitudes of Burra Sahib and Chota sahib towards he natives with the vernacular was the same. Rewards and a survival advantage accrued to Chota sahib for this behavior. And almost anyone could become a Chota sahib, given the right education.

These same relationships were transported abroad by unskilled and skilled Indian workers who went abroad. The migrants could have become Chota sahibs in India, and indeed many of them did (and still do) behave like Chota sahibs among Indians. Living abroad, it was impossible to be a true native with "the vernacular". One had to mimic the attitudes and behavior of the people of the nation that one migrated to, and the rewards were indeed handsome even if there was a glass ceiling.

What has changed now is India and Indians. Many natives with the vernacular travel abroad on temporary assignments, being perfectly content to come back to India. There are a whole lot of "natives with the vernacular' who are wealthy. They are paying money to go abroad as tourists or as students in dubious foreign "universities" that lust after the money offered by the native with the vernacular but do not want the behavior. For the firangi - the model behavior is that of the earlier migrants - the would be Chota sahibs.

But it certainly is a shame if the well settled Chota sahibs abroad mirrored the same attitudes towards "natives with the vernacular" as the firangis . That is what actually seems to happen in a massive display of fractal recursivity. That is the height of Macaulayism/dhimmitude/whatever. It may be a survival advantage abroad, but it is not Indian nationalism.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 07:58

vera_k wrote: Those people would not see much amiss since they would have built a high threshold of tolerance.



With respect may I point out that when someone shows a high threshold of tolerance to Islamic modes of conduct it is called "dhimmitude" and lack of such tolerance is considered by some as being more in line with what is required. So a "high threshold of tolerance" of Indians abroad cannot be praiseworthy can it? Rhetorical, but IMHO pertinent question.

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3172
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby vera_k » 05 Jan 2010 08:29

^^^

Did not mean to imply otherwise. You are right - what one regards as tolerance would be dhimmitude for another. Probably belongs in the Know Your India thread but perhaps all those people preaching tolerance in India are teaching Dhimmitude. That would explain a lot.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 08:29

Observations like "Looks Indian", "Sounds like an Indian accent", "speaking some foreign language", "Wears a red dot on forehead", "eats with fingers", "does not know how to handle a fork" and "smells of curry" are common observations made about Indians.

As long as they do not break any laws, do Indians who go abroad as tourists, businessmen or students not have the right to appear, sound, have beliefs, eat and smell like Indians?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 08:33

vera_k wrote:^^^

Did not mean to imply otherwise. You are right - what one regards as tolerance would be dhimmitude for another. Probably belongs in the Know Your India thread but perhaps all those people preaching tolerance in India are teaching Dhimmitude. That would explain a lot.


Good observation. And similarly, the people who live abroad and show a high degree of tolerance to the locals are practising dhimmitude. What does it mean when the people who practice dhimmitude lecture those who preach dhimmitude? Practice what you preach?

vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3172
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby vera_k » 05 Jan 2010 08:48

:lol: . Seems like a good description of Dissociative identity disorder.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 09:00

vera_k wrote::lol: . Seems like a good description of Dissociative identity disorder.


Vera that is a brilliant act of serendipity. :lol: I was seeing it in terms of different types of cognitive bias. I have been figuring out a way of explaining how cognitive bias and what is called "cognitive miserliness" connects up with human behavior and can explain the behavior of multiple groups of people be they racists, Pakis or even Indians (along with anger and cognitive dissonance when the cognitive bias is revealed and reality conflicts with established belief)

Thank you for sparking off a new stream of thought.

Stan_Savljevic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3522
Joined: 21 Apr 2006 15:40

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 05 Jan 2010 09:12

Regarding Oz, there are a lot of problems. But some of the news items get planted by a "friendly" press in India as that is the only recourse to get further action from some of the racist Oz cops. Just like in India, once a crime has been done, there is little in your hand and you will try any and every method to get some kind of justice for the suffering you suffered. In India, you will get to a politician or a dada, in Oz, you cant use such avenues so you get to a friendly desi media cos Oz media is also racist in good measure or they dont care. That is why this abundance of news items on Oz matters in Indian press of late. For every one guy who dies in Oz or gets attacked in Oz, did the same media talk so breathlessly when like 6-7 AP guys were killed last year or so? Where is all the attention span? It is unsafe to walk in the south side of Chicago or LA or the Bronx late in the night as it is in the northwest suburbs of Melbourne or near the Bondi beach area. Personally, from the point of having walked in both countries, in both locations, pretty much past 10 PM, I know how same the feeling is.

The folks who come to Oz used to come cos it was a safe bet over US, easy to get PR and obviously a visa, education is an industry, and gives nuff leeway to earn cash [20 hrs in US vs much more in Oz] while studying in a no-name college that is "recognized" by the west, etc etc and more. The flow is not stopping even if the Oz folks have tightened PR gateways, the flow has only reduced by 20% or so. Oz is a desert minus the big cities near the oceanside, so most of the desi crowd and most of Oz pop is accumulated in these areas. Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide are the three main centers even if ANU is the most touted one in Canberra. I have seen nuff folks who come to Oz to get an engg degree who run a 7/11 or a convenience store in the corner. And there is plenty of money to be made in Oz, all you need is an entrepreneurial head. And quite a segment of Indians have this type of head, street-smart, entrepreneurial, common-sensical and mixing with the flow-types. If we dont take over parts of Oz, this is going to be taken over far more than the chinis, and trust me the chini control of tinker-bell selling in Oz is far far higher than I can say far.

Try to sift the grain from the chaff and identify planted articles, etc. There is plenty of racism in Oz, on non-whites in general. But ululating about it using the recourse of a planted news item is not going to get any constructive reactions from this thread. Unemotional, balanced, and please stop this rona dhona, we have nuff threads for that. Rona dhona gets nothing done, not on the ground, not for real.... We have certain constraints in terms of operating, and we need a cool head to possibly come up with a solution [A big if]. Otherwise, just stop whining and observe. The way I see it is: there are pains when one has to take over a place. We need a better GoI response sure, but we need our GoI to get better in a hundred billion things that this is a storm in a teacup. For folks who are in the epicenter of life in Oz or US, these are really really no. 1 things, but as a forum which is supposed to be cool, unemotional and strategically thinking, going with the flow of rona dhona like ddm is just not correct.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 09:26

Stan_Savljevic wrote:The way I see it is: there are pains when one has to take over a place.


Fine. But why should the pain be felt by people who are not "taking over" the place? Is it possible that those who are in the process of "taking over" have a vested interest in not making too many waves when a few people who are of no consequence in the "taking over" of Australia are attacked viciously?

The use of words like "taking over" spark off a lot of OT thoughts in my mind. When you take over a place you make its land sacred and important to yourself, unless it is only money you are interested in. That at least seems to be an Indian characteristic. Is it any surprise that the Monongahela or the Potomac never become as sacred as the Kaveri even if you spend more years benefiting from the waters of the former? Indians do not "take over" any foreign land because they do not consider foreign land as sacred and are in it for the money.

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby surinder » 05 Jan 2010 09:30

shiv wrote:As long as they do not break any laws, do Indians who go abroad as tourists, businessmen or students not have the right to appear, sound, have beliefs, eat and smell like Indians?


If you ask me, no. If the visitor/immigrant to a host society violates its reasonable norms of personal hygine, table manners, curteous behaviour, proper public manners, then the distaste it elicits from the host society is quite frankly justifiable. Indians cannot be immune to this form of criticism. In our effort to fight biases & bigotry, we should not swing the pendulum to the other direction.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 09:36

surinder wrote:
shiv wrote:As long as they do not break any laws, do Indians who go abroad as tourists, businessmen or students not have the right to appear, sound, have beliefs, eat and smell like Indians?


If you ask me, no. If the visitor/immigrant to a host society violates its reasonable norms of personal hygine, table manners, curteous behaviour, proper public manners, then the distaste it elicits from the host society is quite frankly justifiable. Indians cannot be immune to this form of criticism. In our effort to fight biases & bigotry, we should not swing the pendulum to the other direction.


So you are saying that Indians who go abroad need to learn how to eat with a fork and knife,smell different and learn the behavior expected of them before they go.

May I ask Surinder, how many parents of Indians abroad conform to these norms and how are they protected when they do not conform? There must be a double standard for some. May I also point out that you are speaking of "curteous behavior" and "proper" public manners. Could I ask you to explain what that means and how you would perhaps advise a friend to educate his parents who are getting old and need to go and live abroad with him?

Stan_Savljevic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3522
Joined: 21 Apr 2006 15:40

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 05 Jan 2010 09:42

shiv wrote:
Stan_Savljevic wrote:The way I see it is: there are pains when one has to take over a place.

Fine. But why should the pain be felt by people who are not "taking over" the place?

Sure sir, life aint fair. Life aint fair, neither in India nor anywhere else. It is each one for his/her own, if it comes to that. That is almost all I can say about the question you asked.

My point was/is this: what is the point of a plain rona dhona drama on this thread? Well, let this thread be a starting point of a letter that interested people of this forum may want to write to Smt. Sujatha Singh (the Indian HC in Oz at Canberra) and Smt. Anita Nayar (CGI at Melbourne), who was excoriated in the Ind-Oz thread. What constructive comments or feedback will you as a nationalist Indian give to these two people to help them pursue? For that, one has to understand the problem. Not like I understand it, I want to be educated myself. So my request is to stop this rona dhona drama of how Yindians are screwed by our own selves and other such nautanki. Get real, analyze, understand, educate with a goal of offering a constructive response to someone who is actually handling this matter on the ground. For the record, emails that get sent to the Indian HC gets read by a real person and gets responded to, unlike emails to CGI in Chicago or Houston or DC. I did nt throw my barb at you specifically, but at all the dramabaazi that was getting me irritated. You can say that is MY problem, sure it is, that is why I posted what I did.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 09:50

Stan_Savljevic wrote:My point was/is this: what is the point of a plain rona dhona drama on this thread? .


Well let's just say that it's because life ain't fair.

I think your points about writing to the Indian HC is a useful one, but we need to go far beyond Australia IMO. If there is differential racial treatment of temporary visitors from India that is not faced by permanent residents who are busy taking over, its stands to reason that the pain is felt differentially by the families of the temporary visitors. They can only ask if the permanent residents can take time off from taking over to help. If that help is not forthcoming the rona dhona will have to continue till some solution is found, knowing that the solution cannot be found via those whose priorities are different. Life is, after all unfair.

Stan_Savljevic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3522
Joined: 21 Apr 2006 15:40

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 05 Jan 2010 10:02

This is not the only people representing Indian students in Oz, but we can get started from there. Quite a few involved are PRs.
http://www.fisa.org.au/

Rahul Mehta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2577
Joined: 22 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Ahmedabad, India --- Bring JurySys in India
Contact:

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Rahul Mehta » 05 Jan 2010 10:03

.

IMO, we should worry about us stuckees (those who are stuck in India) and not worry about defectees (the lucky souls who managed to leave India).

I am an "ex-defectee now stuckee". I defected in 1990 and came back in 1999. I was in NY, NJ area. In my 9 years of stay, I had only one racist experience. The only one incident I faced was when my car was broken down in parking lot, and I was waiting for AAA help. One white American who was walking near by said "I could have helped you, but I dont like immigrants". Looked like a guy who recently lost job because some immigrant. That apart, never had any racist experience. All policemen , Govt officials, bank clerks, collegues at work would behave well. So even if they had racist feeling in their minds, they cover it up and dont show it at all.

===

That is inside US. When it comes to "outside US", most Americans consider all us non-white as roaches and want to kill or convert or enslave us all, and take over all our mineral mines. They have enslaved/robbed Iraq, Iran is next and next on list is India. We should never trust them for minute and we should start preparing for war.

.

surinder
BRFite
Posts: 1421
Joined: 08 Apr 2005 06:57
Location: Badal Ki Chaaon Mein

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby surinder » 05 Jan 2010 10:12

shiv wrote:So you are saying that Indians who go abroad need to learn how to eat with a fork and knife,smell different and learn the behavior expected of them before they go.


A reasonable visitor, PR and/or immigrant would learn the social norms of the host society and try to adapt to them *as long as they don't violate his own sense of self*. If they do, there is a deeper problem, a person should not be going to societies he cannot adapt to or accept.

Within India itself there is such a large range of behaviours that I have not found palatable. Just take norms of personal body odor. I am sorry to say, some Indians do stink. Some very strongly. Taking regular showers, using proper methods of cleaning, using proper underarms deoderants etc are important. These things are needed, otherwise we suffocate each other our body smells. I certainly do not look forward to smelling some elses body odors. Many Indians fart openly. Some fart quietly in confined spaces. I find it highly offensive & unbearable. In most parts of India, males casually are scatching their balls in public, or are taking boogers out, or stuffing fingers in theri ears. I see no merit in these types of public behaviour. Many Indians neither shave on a regular basis, some wear crumpled dirty clothes. (Many europeans nations too have an atrocious sense of personal hygine.)

These have nothing to do with race-based/ethnicity-based bigotry. To blame the host society for not accepting this kind of behaviour is unreasonable & unproductive.

Alien foods can nauseate people not accustomed to them. I get nauseated when I go to Chinese people's homes and smell their cooking. I have seen gutters smell better. It would certainly be sensible for them to be sensitive to this and not force co-workers to scamper when heating their foods in microwaves. There is no dhimmitude or humliation in accepting this norm. It is rigid & unreasonable not to do so.

It is considered a good gesture to understand local sensitivies. As a matter of fact, it applies to within Inda as well. India is a vast country, with more varaitions than whole continents put together. A few years ago I almost went to live in Bangalore. I reaearched the so-called backlash against North Indians in Bangalore, and decided that one of the first things I would do when/if I land there is to learn fluent Kannad. I will become part of the local culture & seek to enhance it, rather than fight to force them to accept my own on them. (Unfortunately, I did not end up going there.)

I lived in the Gangetic Belt in north India, I can speak hindi more fluent than the natives there. I went and worshipped with them, cussed like them, and talked like them. I did this not by compormising my self or any of my own identity, but by accepting the local culture. As a reward, I got tremendous acceptance & love and I never ever faced any snide comments. When you see a Sardar Ji converse in fluent Marathi in Pune, or shudh Bangla in Kokatta, or fluent Tamil it reduces the friction, maybe even eliminates it. I am sorry to say that the bulk of local Indian migrants from cetain states migrate to other states and even while staying there for decades do not bother to speak the local language. That is not smart, IMHO. The backlash you see against them should not be unexpected.



May I ask Surinder, how many parents of Indians abroad conform to these norms and how are they protected when they do not conform? There must be a double standard for some. May I also point out that you are speaking of "curteous behavior" and "proper" public manners. Could I ask you to explain what that means and how you would perhaps advise a friend to educate his parents who are getting old and need to go and live abroad with him?


That is difficult: how do you make parents (who are presumably older & more set in their ways) to change. I don't have an easy answer. But the main thing is that there are legitimate grouses a host society has, and there is bigotry. One must not confuse the two. Making adjustments to my behaviour without compromising my identity is the crux. Being defensive & having an inferiority complex will only make even legitimate compromises seem like capitulation.

PS: The same holds for foreigners coming to India. As an example: Their easy familiarity with the opposite gender needs to be curtailed in India. Their clothing in conservative parts of India needs to take local customs into mind. Nothing unjustified in that either.

Yudhajit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 57
Joined: 24 Aug 2009 11:16

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Yudhajit » 05 Jan 2010 10:18

rajpa wrote:from the firangi's perspective, they are a race (white) .. indians are not their race.. (sdre?).. so it is racism..

Actually, many consider Indians as caucasians as far as 'race' is concerned. The (smart musharrafed, as someone put it) comment was meant to highlight the defence put up by some to deny 'racism' as the reason behind a particular behavior, even when obvious.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby vina » 05 Jan 2010 11:02

Yawwn.. This sort of problem is universal and is faced by everyone of all difference "races" and "ethnicities" anywhere outside their homelands.

Leaving out barbaric medieval places like the Gulf in general and Saudi in particular (there the only recourse is to give them as hard as they give, I blame the GOI for not giving it back to them.. for eg, how about threatening to sever all trade ties and take up a global campaign to boycott based on human and labor rights violations along with Human Rights orgs and other labor rights orgs, with UAE, unless they improve conditions of labor.. You can do that in all countries of the Gulf , especially UAE which is highly depenedant on trade) , the rest of the world you assume to be civilized and addresses these problems meaningfully.

UK and Oireope may be many things, but they are largely fair and civilized. US is an altogether different category. How many places in the world do you hear a sunny "HI, How are you ?" when you step out in the morning for a walk in the Riverside park in NY C or in the Bay Area in SF in places like Burlingame or the Marina ?. Where else do total strangers corner you and talk to you for 10 /15/20 mins at a stretch to make small talk ?. I think , the warmth of Americans is quite unique. Imagine being able to make conversation with a gloomy brit with his/her "warmth" that is as wet and cold as their island nation , I never could.

The problem with Australia is really this nice article . The Australians like to pretend they are civilized are comparable to UK and US and Europe, and want to be taken as such becuase they came from there and are of Western Stock and is considered a "Western" country. But reality is very different and the Australians know it in their heart of hearts.

So the basic psychological response is of denial, obfuscation and trying to brush it under the carpet and bury their skeletons of racism, uncouthness , boorishness and general neanderthal behavior. The Aussie press is complicit in burying it in Page 10 ,if at all it gets reported. In India the press takes and activist role in these matters (just compare the uproar , rightfully so , that happened, when Graham Staines and his children were burnt alive , the coverage and headlines and the way it became a political issue with the opposition taking it up). In Australia the press, police, govt and civil society have become complicit and accepting of crime, racism and unacceptable behavior and when the Indian students are not willing to take it to the chin and keep quiet like other foreign students like Chinese, African etc and take it up, it rankles the Aussies and throws up some stupid defensive denial.

Yeah , there are civilized people in Australia, and a couple of Australians I knew in the US are very dear friends. But the average Aussie seems to be a lout , unfortunately.

arnab
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 09:08

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby arnab » 05 Jan 2010 11:49

vina wrote:UK and Oireope may be many things, but they are largely fair and civilized. US is an altogether different category. How many places in the world do you hear a sunny "HI, How are you ?" when you step out in the morning for a walk in the Riverside park in NY C or in the Bay Area in SF in places like Burlingame or the Marina ?. Where else do total strangers corner you and talk to you for 10 /15/20 mins at a stretch to make small talk ?. I think , the warmth of Americans is quite unique. Imagine being able to make conversation with a gloomy brit with his/her "warmth" that is as wet and cold as their island nation , I never could.

The problem with Australia is really this nice article . The Australians like to pretend they are civilized are comparable to UK and US and Europe, and want to be taken as such becuase they came from there and are of Western Stock and is considered a "Western" country. But reality is very different and the Australians know it in their heart of hearts.

So the basic psychological response is of denial, obfuscation and trying to brush it under the carpet and bury their skeletons of racism, uncouthness , boorishness and general neanderthal behavior. The Aussie press is complicit in burying it in Page 10 ,if at all it gets reported. In India the press takes and activist role in these matters (just compare the uproar , rightfully so , that happened, when Graham Staines and his children were burnt alive , the coverage and headlines and the way it became a political issue with the opposition taking it up). In Australia the press, police, govt and civil society have become complicit and accepting of crime, racism and unacceptable behavior and when the Indian students are not willing to take it to the chin and keep quiet like other foreign students like Chinese, African etc and take it up, it rankles the Aussies and throws up some stupid defensive denial.

Yeah , there are civilized people in Australia, and a couple of Australians I knew in the US are very dear friends. But the average Aussie seems to be a lout , unfortunately.


I’m afraid this is just not correct. I have heard of many incidences of racism in the US. A recently arrived Indian IT professional in Australia told me how in Germany, commuters preferred standing in the bus rather than sit next to him presumably because of his skin colour. The only experience of racism that I have had was in the Kolkata international airport where the check-in staff plucked a couple of american tourists from the middle of the queue and opened another counter for them (despite their protests). Similarly - there are a lot of Australians who stop my mom and appreciate her saree. My mum-in-law went on a coastal tour by herself and she came back effusive about how the passengers and the bus driver helped her off the steps and with her luggage. But like I say – anecdotal evidence is no evidence.

In India the so called press activism too is pretty much agenda driven – you would see copious tears being shed for DU lecturer Gilani being accused of being a terrorist but none whatsoever for a kashmiri pandit languishing in a Dehli camp.
The reasons all around are the same. It is a question of statistical significance. Every organisation / department / mainstream media ultimately asks the question – ‘is it worth my while to make a song and dance about this event?’ Wrt to Australia, GOI has already indicated that the farthest it would go would be to issue a ‘caution’ for Indian students planning to go to Australia. Perhaps this is step 1. I would like to think that GOI is playing some sort of a chess game. The Australian media presumably sees the education industry as a $12 b pie and is complicit in wishing to protect this industry.
It is incumbent upon GOI and the Indian citizens to impose ‘pain’ on Australia. Unfortunately if it is not statistically worth it, then they won’t. We shall see.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1538
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby ASPuar » 05 Jan 2010 14:12

Manas wrote:2) I have also seen/experienced 2nd class treatment from Indian airport
(CISF) personnel. One set of rules for the white man and another set
for Indians. Kind of open discrimination in one's own country by
fellow country men.


I've generally experienced good service from the CISF chaps. However, once, at an international airport, I was sent back from the boarding gate, because my Boarding Card wasnt security stamped. I walked back to the chap who frisked me, and asked him why he hadnt stamped it.

He (a sub inspector), suddenly told me "Dekho aapko main arrest kar sakta hoon", (Look, I can arrest you), for no reason whatsoever. At which point, I merely raised my eyes, and said "Accha? Aap mujhe arrest karenge? Kis waja se?" (Oh? You will arrest me? For what reason?).

At this, he sullenly walked off, and some other chap stamped my pass. I was bemused by the incident, and still dont understand what he was on about.

I think a lot of these boys have never served in the big city, and are not used to being questioned. Of course, in Delhi, everyone and his uncle is "somebody" much bigger than the next guy, so that sort of attitude doesnt fly.

Surprised, because as I say, CISF is usually quite professional.

Sachin
Webmaster BR
Posts: 8039
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Undisclosed

Re: Treatment of Indians Abroad

Postby Sachin » 05 Jan 2010 16:47

I am not generalising, and don't know if the negative incidents can be called "racism" per se. FWIW.
1. Japan (city, and journeys). No open hostility at all. Once during a journey in a local train, I was just the most "looked at" person because I stood out. And one old man asked my religion, and whether I eat beef ;).
2. US (city). No open hostility at all.
3. UK (city). In bus, young kids generally were averse to sitting next to me. No problems from the older generation. The most blatant incident was a drunkard entering the bus, sitting opposite to me and chanting to himself "monkeys are taking over the world" ;). And then he asks questions like "Who is the beautiful monkey?", and answers "Abdul" and "who is the next beautiful monkey?" and the answer "Asif". This chap seems to be from the lowest rung of UK society.
4. Netherlands (and Europe). At netherlands a very senior (by age) colleague asked me if I plan to stay in Netherlands, after that I said the country looks beautiful. Could sense a tone in that question, that he expected every one who entered the country to stay there by hook or crook. I said, I seriously plan to go back and he did not even bring up the topic again and was quite friendly.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: IndraD, nithish and 102 guests