West Asia News and Discussions

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 01 Jun 2010 01:26

Turks want to replace Arabs and become pre-eminent power broker in middle east. This is also an act which will help their standing vis a vis oiropean liberals.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Jun 2010 02:10

At 00:53 in the youtube video it looks like its a paintball gun the Israeli commando is holding. A few seconds later it looks like a handgun in his hands. And the guy using the metal rod seems to have a gas mask on?

Peaceful protesters indeed!!

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 01 Jun 2010 08:42

Some interesting videos concerning the standoff:

Message to the Ship

Weapons used against the soldiers

Edit - Video posted by the IDF: http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Jun 2010 08:46

Why the Gaza boat deaths are a huge deal

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/201 ... _huge_deal

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Jun 2010 08:46

Israeli Raid Complicates U.S. Ties and Push for Peace

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world ... olicy.html

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Jun 2010 08:47

India's reaction
From MEA's website

Statement on incident involving boats carrying supplies for Gaza

31/05/2010

India deplores the tragic loss of life and the reports of killings and injuries to people on the boats carrying supplies for Gaza. There can be no justification for such indiscriminate use of force, which we condemn. We extend our sympathies to the families of the dead and wounded. It is our firm conviction that lasting peace and security in the region can be achieved only through peaceful dialogue and not through use of force.

New Delhi
May 31, 2010

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2010 09:22

Looks like there were a lot of high stakes involved in this flotilla business.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Jun 2010 09:46

^^^Instead of posting Gandhian messages on their website, the GoI would do well to take notes on how effectively the Israelis documented the entire operation and have responded with a media onslaught of their own. Hope some of this gets into our baboos thick skulls - but I hope too much I guess.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 01 Jun 2010 09:58

Raja Bose wrote:
Hope some of this gets into our baboos thick skulls - but I hope too much I guess.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jun 2010 10:41

Surya wrote:philip

before you pick on your pet leftist rant - would you allows a 'humanitarian convoy" tomorrow across the LOC??

Apples and oranges.

Israel’s attack on the flotilla took place in international waters, not territorial waters nor even disputed territorial waters. That makes it piracy.

Territory on either side of the LOC is a completely different kettle of fish.

Israel’s arrogance has gone to far in this case and they deserve whatever boots that contact their backside.

Meanwhile our Ministry of External Affairs has got it right with this comment deploring Israel’s action:

abhishek_sharma wrote:India's reaction
From MEA's website

Statement on incident involving boats carrying supplies for Gaza

31/05/2010

India deplores the tragic loss of life and the reports of killings and injuries to people on the boats carrying supplies for Gaza. There can be no justification for such indiscriminate use of force, which we condemn. We extend our sympathies to the families of the dead and wounded. It is our firm conviction that lasting peace and security in the region can be achieved only through peaceful dialogue and not through use of force.

New Delhi
May 31, 2010

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 01 Jun 2010 10:56

Sriman wrote:Clear footage of commandos being attacked with metal rods. One commando was thrown off the deck.

People are actually blaming Israel after seeing such scenes?! They are lynching the soldiers ffs! The cretins got what they deserve.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jun 2010 11:04

^^^ That’s about as misplaced as showering sympathy for an intruder who got thrashed by the occpants of the house for entering into the home in the wee hours of the morning after jimmying a window

.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 01 Jun 2010 11:10

Good job by Israel. The turkish islamists have been at the forefront of this rubbish maybe its time Israel paid it back via the kurds.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 01 Jun 2010 11:23

arun wrote:
Israel’s attack on the flotilla took place in international waters, not territorial waters nor even disputed territorial waters. That makes it piracy.

Territory on either side of the LOC is a completely different kettle of fish.

Israel’s arrogance has gone to far in this case and they deserve whatever boots that contact their backside.

Meanwhile our Ministry of External Affairs has got it right with this comment deploring Israel’s action:

Would it have been ok if Israel waited a few miles and then did the same? Turkey was openly supporting this incursion into Israeli waters.

IMO Israel had every right to stop the boats. But they should not have been using lethal force instead of things like tear gas or w/e.

Strategically though, at this point now, who is going to stand up for Israel?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2010 11:48

Wow! The Israelis have balls!
But then what other options did they have? No country can allow WKKs to go overboard with their rhetoric, in this case the WKK's were clearly crossing the line.

Turkey becoming more islamic will hurt Ouirope more, since they are now almost a ouiropean country.
BTW in the middle east these 4 jokers - KSA, Iraq, Iran, and Turkey are in a 4 way battle for the region's spokesperson status. They've all cultivated a USP for themselves:
1. KSA has the two holy shrines
2. Not to be outdone, Iran is the moral voice in the middle east, and the defender of the Shias
3. Turkey is part of NATO, and Muslim and borders ouirope, and is the erstwhile regional superpower.
4. Iraq in the middle was the west's stooge all these years to destabilize all the remaining 3 - guess what fate caused it to be the most destabilized. (Lesson for Pakistan vis-a-vis India) (Also important why India must not allow itself to be used to try and destabilize China)

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 01 Jun 2010 11:52

arun wrote: Israel’s attack on the flotilla took place in international waters, not territorial waters nor even disputed territorial waters. That makes it piracy.

That is uninformed BS. A blockade may be enforced on international waters. Now you might question the morality of blockading Gaza -- that is a separate issue. The legality of enforcing it in international waters is *not* on shaky ground. There is a difference between a "blockade" and attacking an intrusion. When a blockade is not in effect and has not been communicated in advance and requisite warnings posted through appropriate channels, along with the ports and coordinates that are being blockaded, it is true that only intruders can be attacked. On the other hand, anybody can blockade any port (Just like anyone can declare a war on anybody else -- morality apart) and it is legal to enforce such a blockade.

Think of it this way. During peace time is a Pakistani soldier in Karachi fair game? No. Is it murder if we kill him? Yes. During peacetime, Is a pakistani soldier who has infiltrated inside India fair game? Yes. During a war, is a Pakistani soldier in karachi fair game? Yes. Is it murder if we kill him in his base in Karachi during war? No.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/La ... y-2010.htm

A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 01 Jun 2010 11:56

This ones got sound.

YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers (With Sound)

Completely justified. Should have torpedoed the ship instead of risking Israeli lives.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2010 12:19

I wonder what must be going through the soldiers minds as they were rappelling down into that crowd of lunatics?
They would have have been armed, still they came down got beaten up, with pipes and knives and managed to control that rowdy crowd.
These WKKs are no peacenicks. One view of their peace ful marches and run ins with the police is enough to convince anyone that these are vicious violent people, who don't have the balls to be terrorists. They are just one rung below being terrorists.

Hats off to those soldiers!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2010 12:29

Hezbollah uses the sea route to bring in military supplies covertly from Iran and other places.
This blockade by Israel prevents that. The issue is not of food supplies getting through. Israel allows that through several points on the demarcation line into gaza.

The thing is that these guys wanted to create an international incident that'll shame israel, and cause the US to stay neutral should the issue of lifting off that blockade come up in the UN. As it is President Obama's ambivalence on strong relations and unquestioned support of Israel is giving ideas to the arabs and the turks in the middle east.

Whoever planned this was hoping that several peace-nicks will get killed and an international incident will be created. The ultimate aim is to re-open the sea route to military supplies to gaza. There would be several armed expatriate palestinian jerks amongst the peacenick crowd - the kind that are seen throwing stones, fire bombs etc during protests in the palestinian territories.

laltoo · Post by **laltoo** » 01 Jun 2010 12:32

Let us not forget that before all this happened, Israel had suggested a transfer all the goods on the ships to Gaza but via controlled Israeli border after proper screening of all the goods. The leaders of the flotilla had spurned that suggestion. They were intent on provoking a confrontation as to allow them to pass through would have been tantamount to forcing Israel out of the blockade. This was not an option for Israel.

The primary reason for the killings was that the IDF was not prepared for the high level of violence that they encountered on the ship. They did not have adequate crowd control equipment and soldiers were given orders to use lethal force (albeit only handguns) once they faced risk to their own life (due to the lynching).

The following link reasonably conveys the Israeli side of the story.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 96,00.html

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 01 Jun 2010 12:35

A fairly balanced opinion by Turkish daily

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2010-05-31

That the aid flotilla is an act of provocation is beyond dispute. That among the ranks of activists there is no small number of publicity-seeking European sycophants is well known. That a sincere effort to ease Palestinian suffering might have sought accommodation we will concede. That a few knives or even guns might be found on the aid ships is a possibility

Look like Erdogan & Co want to carry on in power by stirring up Islamic fervour and putting Turkey forever on a slippery slope to KSA-type nation. They are losing ground electorally and what better way than to find external demons to vanquish...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2010 12:57

Mostly expat Palestinians.

Point to note for India. Specially media management, and the modus operendi by the palestinian WKKs.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2010 13:47

This issue will be hot for a while, but like all things in the past, this issue shall also die out.

The Israeli have done as good media management as can be done. They have exposed the 'peacenicks' as rioters and people with a biased agenda to the world. They have presented their case well.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2010 13:50

Zaid Hamid (PBUH) holds forth on this issue - and almost bursts his hemorroids.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95N5hsUz0zE
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJq0tqAjYAw
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qWvCR1beaE

AoA!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2010 13:58

prad wrote:i personally think this is a disaster for Israel. they've isolated themselves now. Israel, with all due respect, is too small a country to exist in isolation. they have to interact with the world for their own survival.

as for the Turks, they are the real winners in this drama. let's not loose sight of that. Turkey has played a move worthy of a grand master; with this single event, they've legitimised their increased role in ME and have turned the tables on Israel.

Its not a big deal or big win for Turkey, its a simple "coming out party" to rejoin their brothers.

They could have always done that -- the real question now is, what will be the reprecussions on them? What will EU feel about Turky's antics now? I guess they can kiss the EU membership bye bye now, with the attendant gravy train fed by Germany.

What will be the US stand towards Turkey? They are not Saudi Arabia, US suddenly has a fourth entry in the power jockeying position.

Or have they taken advantage of recent changes in US policy courtesy Barak Hussien Obama?

I wonder how US long term interests will play out now that they are loosing three bases in and around West Asia, Turkey, Israel and Afg-Pak.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2010 14:20

This is going to reflect on BHO for sure.

This is the result of the ambivalence he has shown towards relations with Israel. The people of Jewish origin will have something to say back in the US.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 01 Jun 2010 14:38

Although it was wrong for the activists to try to defy sea-blockade on Gaza, Israel has it's own share of wrong doing-leading upto and during the whole flotilla episode.

One thing is sure. Both the sides expected confrontation and were prepared in their capabilities. The reason beyond doubt is deep mistrust.

Reasons given the activists for trying to defy Gaza-blockade:
* Israel does not allow any basic construction materials like cement into Gaza.
* Even what Israel does allow (about 15,000 tonnes of aid each week) is only a quarter of the actual requirement.
* Israel regards Gaza as a separate entity from the state and hence cannot claim the Gazan coat as it's territory. So if Israel has no responsibility for the people of Gaza they cannot legally impose a blockade in Gazan territorial waters.

Reasons given by Israel for boarding the ships
* Gaza is under a Israeli sea-blockade to prevent arms smuggling by Hamas, but the activists tried to defy it even after repeated warnings.
* As for the interception in international waters here is the official response. "the San Remo memorandum states, specifically 67A, that if you have a boat that is charging a blockaded area you are allowed to intercept even prior to it reaching the blockaded area if you've warned them in advance, and that we did a number of times and they had a stated goal which they openly expressed, of breaking the blockade. That blockade is in place to protect our people."

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jun 2010 14:44

Anujan wrote:
arun wrote: Israel’s attack on the flotilla took place in international waters, not territorial waters nor even disputed territorial waters. That makes it piracy.
That is uninformed BS. A blockade may be enforced on international waters. Now you might question the morality of blockading Gaza -- that is a separate issue. The legality of enforcing it in international waters is *not* on shaky ground. There is a difference between a "blockade" and attacking an intrusion. When a blockade is not in effect and has not been communicated in advance and requisite warnings posted through appropriate channels, along with the ports and coordinates that are being blockaded, it is true that only intruders can be attacked. On the other hand, anybody can blockade any port (Just like anyone can declare a war on anybody else -- morality apart) and it is legal to enforce such a blockade.

Think of it this way. During peace time is a Pakistani soldier in Karachi fair game? No. Is it murder if we kill him? Yes. During peacetime, Is a pakistani soldier who has infiltrated inside India fair game? Yes. During a war, is a Pakistani soldier in karachi fair game? Yes. Is it murder if we kill him in his base in Karachi during war? No.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/La ... y-2010.htm

A state may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.

Here is some more “uninformed BS”

from Richard Falk, UN Special Rappoteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories which states that Israel violated the law when it interdicted the aid flotilla on the high seas;

“Israel is guilty of shocking behavior by using deadly weapons against unarmed civilians on ships that were situated in the high seas where freedom of navigation exists, according to the law of the seas.”

UN News Center

Let me now add some more of my own “uninformed BS”

and say that the UN Convention on the Law of the Seas permits interdiction on the high seas only in the limited cases of drug smuggling, arms smuggling, involvement in the slave trade etc.

Interdicting a shipment of humanitarian aid on the high seas is not a permitted activity despite the sleight of hand that the Government of Israeli is trying to palm off to the disbelieving most of the rest of the world via the link you posted.

It will be this belief of an arrogant Israeli disregard for international law that will result in the International community, including the bulk on those who are not members of the OIC, landing a firm kick on Israel’s backside unless the boot is expressly headed off by a US Veto.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jun 2010 14:49

biswas wrote:Completely justified. Should have torpedoed the ship instead of risking Israeli lives.

.

Let me repeat what I said to an individual in the Indo-Israel thread who said the same thing you did.

So what would you be recommending be done to our ie: India’s, Ministry of External Affairs for articulating a national position completely at odds with yours?

Bearing in mind the land locked location which clearly would rule out the efficacy of torpedo’s would your recommendation be to let loose a few Pop-Eyes on South Block

?

For a website reputedly populated by jingoes of the Indian stripe I am flummoxed by the need of some to take a position against the nationally articulated one and favour an opposing one articulated by a foreign country. Perhaps Democracy in action though hardly the stuff of Indian jingoes.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2010 15:03

And the replies are there too....

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 69#p880469

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 01 Jun 2010 18:24

Arun-ji

What is this continuous urge to find an Indian parallel to each and every issue across the world, especially the Arab-Israeli issue?

Is there any hidden agenda beyond basic incapability to analyse a non-Indian issue as is?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 01 Jun 2010 18:42

x posted from the yindoo-joo thread

Rahul M wrote:http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threa ... ml?from=tn

Two Turkish activists were reported to be among those killed in the flotilla. Ankara warned that further supply vessels will be sent to Gaza, escorted by the Turkish Navy, a development with unpredictable consequences.
uh oh, this is hotting up.

Will Turkey risk such a confrontation?

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 01 Jun 2010 18:57

Thats a joke. Turkish navy will be at the bottom of the Mediterranean if they tried something that stupid with their hand me down ships. Maybe IN should offer ISraela few brahmos to test its efficacy.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 01 Jun 2010 18:59

Israel will have to resort to force if some one tries to breach the blockade, with Turkish navy support or not. I believe Turkey is a NATO member. Everybody's H&D is involved in the issue. Ombaba will have to step in I guess. The only question is which way will he gubo this time.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 01 Jun 2010 19:13

The supporter of Sudan, Iran and various other terrorist outfits, the oppressor of kurds talks eloquently about how killing one human is killing entire humanity....presenting Mr. Ahmet Davutoglu, Turkish FM who has his own ideas on strategic depth...

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php? ... 2010-06-01

Interestingly, the ships were intercepted EXACTLY 72 miles from Israeli cost, a point repeated by Mr. Ahmet twice in his UN Speech quoted above. Question is, did Netanyahu follow the BRF TSP thread and its demise at 72

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Jun 2010 19:15

if the turks do go ahead with this it would be a game changer of sorts in the ME. more headache for unkil too.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 01 Jun 2010 19:23

when you say 'this' you mean a military confrontation with Israel? I doubt if Turkey is keen on that...its Army perhaps would not be half enthusiastic...if you are talking about diplomatic noise, it cant make much difference, only goes to reduce whatever little credibility turkey has left as a possible mediator and a lone sensible voice of sanity in fanatic barbarian ME....as I posted many months ago on the Turkey thread, the world is not running short of rabid ME regimes shouting from rooftop for Palestine primarily to satisfy domestic street audience.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 01 Jun 2010 19:26

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177146

Egypt 'lifts' blockade of Gaza...as Israel has pointed out, the so-called blockage which never anyway involved food, medicines etc., (much though Mr. Ahmet would want us to believe otherwise, in his eloquent for the kids of Gaza speech quoted above), has been by Egypt as well, primarily to keep some level of peace by preventing Hamas from arming itself and harming peace...

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Jun 2010 19:54

RamaY wrote:Arun-ji

What is this continuous urge to find an Indian parallel to each and every issue across the world, especially the Arab-Israeli issue?

Is there any hidden agenda beyond basic incapability to analyse a non-Indian issue as is?

RamaY-ji,

Why would endorsing the official Indian view on a specific non Indian event in an India centric forum cause you to carry an iota of a suspicion of a presumably malign hidden agenda by me?

Meanwhile let me also disabuse you of any notion that our the Ministry of External Affairs in its pronouncement on the matter seems to have displayed no “basic incapability to analyse a non-Indian issue” and reflecting my past agreement with the MEA’s stand, ditto for myself. The MEA’s condemnation of Isreals action reflects the UN Security Council’s, text of whose statement is available here.

Perhaps it is those that do not find Israel’s action condemnable who suffer the “basic incapability to analyse a non-Indian issue”

.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 01 Jun 2010 20:04

Gagan wrote:This is going to reflect on BHO for sure.

This is the result of the ambivalence he has shown towards relations with Israel. The people of Jewish origin will have something to say back in the US.

I'm not so confident, a lot of Jewish liberals are in agreement with Obama and have had influence on his foreign policy towards Israel since his early days in politics. While most of them support Israel, they don't necessarily oppose a Palestinian state either. Remember his closest advisors Axelrod and Emanuel are both Jewish. Obama is probably best described as "Post-Israel" - he doesn't actively oppose the country but doesn't see it as a "special" nation either.