Internal Security Watch

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 Jan 2011 20:23

^^^Would you consider that entire mob a mob of "loonies"? Well since the car burning and casualties if any have not been reported - they never happened. Therefore they were not loonies. Moreover, since they were not loonies, they represented proper mass suport. Therefore the government did the right thing by immediately addressing their righteous grievance - perhaps we can recast this as affirmative action? Moreover it should not be read as a signal from the government that it will always bend over backwards to whatever a particular community demands -and especially if it can riot and send out mobs.

I will wait to see who, when calls that mass action - and the entire mob a bunch of loonies, and a symptom of the threat to internal security.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 15 Jan 2011 21:19

Brihaspatiji,

First up, an ability of comprehension of simple english is a sine qua non for other more complicated things, isnt it?

You make serious assumptions about what I wrote:

brihaspati wrote:Associated with this is your doing an equal equal with Talebani type terror with RSS

Please point out where I have said that...

brihaspati wrote:The fundamental problem with your crusade against the RSS is your implication that RSS is somehow a security threat for India

Please let me know where I have said that as well..

My problem with the RSS is that its tutelage of the BJP keeps the latter from developing into a viable right wing political alternative - that its ideology is anachronistic and antediluvian in all respects....I have written in some of the earlier posts to explain the perspective..Hindu terror, if proven will be a security threat - and I have written about that as well..

About the national security perspective, you sir, are in such a small minority in your narrative of "clash of civilisations" that your thought process isnt even marginal in political discourse - the only people perhaps who take it seriously are the uniquitous Ram Lals so archetypal of the RSS

, and your supposed "defence structures" will give professional intel/military/police forces of the country the jitters...Read B Raman and Ajit Doval - they write copiously, especially the former...You will get a perspective of what professionals think of such clash of civilisational concepts..Read KPS Gill's fantastic account of the Punjab militancy - he pulls no punches, but you will get an idea of how crucial support of jat sikhs was to tackle a jat sikh insurgency - not a "clash of civilisations" battle...As for vox populi, well voting percentages give a good enough indication of mass support...If ou are interested, take a look at the electoral fortunes of people who propagate similar "clash of civilisations" theories - names that come instantly to mind are BL Sharma Prem, Yogi Adityanath, Kalyan Singh, Vinay Katiyar - barring the gorakhpur yogi, most of them wallow in the wilderness of popular support..That does NOT necessarily mean that they are wrong, but just an indication of popular support given how sure you are about "hindus" being supportive of vigilnate groups of the sort you mention...

So there goes "popular" support...The reason I had brought up the issue of student support is that university students are most receptive to iconoclastic ideas of all types - from romance to literature to movies to ideology to business...Thats all..And you agreed that the RSS-types dont gain traction there...Why? Ask the students! Ashish Nandy (or even Swapan Dasgupta

) v/s KS Lal? No chance....

Moreover I have studied history more seriously and intensely than you as is obvious to me from your shallow copies of standard jargon mentioned by self-hating intellectuals

And about your liberal casting of aspersions on my history "knowledge" - wht can I say, good for you sir! (only hope that such "superrior" knowledge is not in the same level of your knowledge of international finance, with allusions of EAst Asian curencies being pegged to European ccies!

)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jan 2011 21:29

I watched the distant 3rd angrezi channel by chance tonight for 5 mins. it was the old set of court jesters and juries - the topic being (surprise) "saffron terror". some other guy was the moderator maybe barkha took the weekend off.

is it any wonder what with its one-agenda programming its viewers have long ago migrated to other channels like cnn-ibn and headlines today...

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Jan 2011 21:37

I salute Somnath, he is verily the speck of refuse that irritates the "seep" into making the pearl.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 15 Jan 2011 21:42

Guys, no personal attacks. Please.

This applies to all parties involved in the discussion.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Jan 2011 22:37

Somnathji,

I think that the reason why RSS maybe hasn't put down any concrete political or economic theories is because a majority of the members feel as though the individual is the sovereign and the responsibility of government is solely to create the conditions for this to exist (currency, policing, military, etc). Therefore, they have a hard time accepting western political and economic theories like secularism, communism, etc which have their origins in Christian anthropology (god/gov is sovereign and not man). If society is self regulating, where is the need for western social and political frameworks? Brihaspatiji, what are your thoughts on this?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 Jan 2011 23:14

RoyG ji,
will this not go OT? maybe some other thread?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 15 Jan 2011 23:28

Yeah good idea.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 16 Jan 2011 00:05

Exhibit A: The state of Gujarat. This has been primarily headed and powered by a person who is a product of outdated RSS ideology. If only it had been headed by a product of Marxist ideology, which is the most modern, it would have become like W.Bengal.

So, gentle readers, for most of earthy types, if there is some model to emulate, I guess W.Bengal would be the way to go. I rest my case. The most modern highly developing state W.Bengal, which is the citadel for internal security blows Gujarath out in water. Gujarat is dead in water. Internal security in Gujarath is non-existent. Where is the little Red book when one needs it?

Why is outdated ideology of RSS, which has the capacity to produce a person who will Gujaratify be of concern. All ij well. Forget RSS, they are security nightmare. Now can we have chai with Maoists and learn something modern and be productive?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Jan 2011 00:08

somnath ji,

you started with

And 21st century India cannot be (and for a large part, is not) hamstrung by a debate on "action-reactions"...More so if you keep exapnding the scope of the linkages - so Babri was a consequence now of not just historic injustice, but Kashmiri terrorist outrage against the Pandits! Unfortunately, the state cannot take cognisance of such consequence theories....Solving "historical trauma" cases will only end up making the nation a permanent casualty ward, with more dead than injured!

BTW, you somehow include sikhs in the "hindu" fold in the discussion - but the biggest carnage against sikhs was perpetrated by a bunch of loony hindus, like Jagdish Tytler!

But you have never mentioned the Congress which contained Tytler - as anachronistic, neither did you call it a "RSS".

Islamist groups like LeT, IM, JeM fall definitely under the first category...These groups have demands that can never be met under the current structure of the Indian state - so they have to be fought to the end...Hindu groups too fall in the same category, as any notion of a hindu supremacist state (whatever little one gleans from their outpourings in the media) is not consistent with the idea of India...Insuregncies morphing into terrorist movements would fall in the same category - so there was some degree of popular support for some of the objectives of the "Khalistan" movement that could be accomodated...But very soon, the likes of KCF, KZF etc could not be tolerated within the bounds of the Indian state...

You also have a specific idea of what you think the state should accommodate, and you have no objections to it - as you have not stated so -

Lots of groups in the NE would fall under the second category - Phizo, Laldenga, Muivah - they have all been fought to a stage where they were ready to negotiate, and then the political process of accomodation kicked in...Ditto with ULFA..And ditto with the naxals as well....Aspirations on regional identity, share of power, share of local resources, recognition of language and customs - these are well within the capability of the state to accomodate..

Butwhat about the religious motivation that masquerades under regional or ethnic garb? You have spent posts after post trying to dismiss the religious angle as sham or a pretension to hide the ethnic conflic angle. Why would they need to hide their ethnic priority in motivations if religious separatism is something that you+state are not ready to accept?

The leaks on Aseemanand's confession has had one HUGE impact - it simply warns everyone involved that a specific canary has sung..And all of them would be taking more desperate meausres to save their skins..Which means it gets at the margin even more difficult to get everyone...

If Aseemanand is the canary, then you are saying here that he was actually involved with a lot of others, who will now be more cautious and become more difficult to catch. Is it or is it not a statement on your part that you hold Aseemanand's supposed statement as valid truthful and that you have already decided he or his connections and any group he is connected with - are already guilty as accused - before any trial or conclusion of at least one round of the legal process?

Many times..In fact stories of RSS participating in relief ops is reported very often..As do stories of Shiv Sena doing relief in Mumbai (I have even seen bollywood films depicting that)...Perversely, there were lots of stories about the Taliban organising much better relief ops than the Pak govt after the KAshmir earthquake

An organisation can remain anachronistic in its worldview, and can continue to do good "service" in certain areas..They are not necessarily contrary to each other...

What else is the implication of mentioning only the Taliban as sharing in a characteristic with the RSS and the Shiv Sena other than trying to do an equal equal with them? You are surely aware that even the Left parties carry out relief operations. I can describe the exact procedures by which relief material and money is collected, "processed" and distributed by Leftist organizations. You do not consider the Left in India anachronistic? The Christian missionaries carry out relief operations, and I have worked side by side with them [although their presence was much fewer and less conspicuous in areas where Christians are not known to reside in significant number] and you do not find say organizations which subscribe to Churches that believes in demons and evil spirits as anachronistic?

You will not be able to show direct evidence of the Taliban coming in to carry out relief in POK after the earthquake. What you can show is the activity of the JUD, [The JD field hospital in Muzaffarabad was initially headed by Dr Amir Aziz Khan, who was arrested in October 2002 for links to the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. He supposedly admitted meeting bin Laden, the charges were dropped - and therefore no proven connection as being a Taliban] and the JUI - and these are the two who have been associated by indirect implication with the Taliban. But they are not named as, or they claim themselves as "Taliban". In fact the Taliban are not directly known much for relief operations in post disaster scenario - they have in fact been also known actively to discourage relief operations in areas. The relief operations actually were carried out by formal "charity" groups some of which themselves were motivated by jihadi or Islamist ideologies. But calling them Taliban would be a distant and rather unsupported and overstretched attribution. Taliban is an out and out declared military political theological organization which has a certain version of the Sunni Sharia imposition on all of the world as their sole and declared aim. Charity or relief operations is not even part of their repertoire. How can you compare it with the RSS even on such basis?

As for history, have you read any of KS Lal's books? Can you read them through and then put up passages and dispute them as to scholarship and autheticity or logic? You were trying to B****** KS Lal and then you are not aware that one of his primary works had a foreward written by Prof. Muhammad Habib, father of Irfan Habib? This made me suspicious about your "historical hobby".

As for SEAsia, you yourself consistently continued to make statements that "SEAsians pegged to the dollar" and only much later when I pointed out that almost all of these countries did not give any formal declaration of such pegging and that the basket had to be statistcially estimated, did you dismiss it as that you "knew" it. In all your quick hints of professionalism you did not care to explain how you came to "know" - but you accused me of not "knowing" it either. The baskets have to be estimated, and if you run the estimation procedure over the decade you can see statistically significant weightage given in some baskets to the Yen as well as DM immediately before the crisis. Since you claim to be the professional, and you have access to the data surely - [you can also work with the freely obtainable but daily data from at least one well known public site] and why don't you try out?

I hope you read up at least one of KS Lal's books, and run the econometric analysis for SE Asia again before we start discussing "historical expertise" and "financial expertise" again?

As for narratives, I said that mine does not coincide with yours. Who is marginal, and on what basis that supposed difference in ideological positions is reflected in electoral returns or not - will be a matter of history to test out. So let us not trade personal barbs about this.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 16 Jan 2011 02:04

A friend of mine avoided being killed that day by those blood thirsty moderate Indian muslims. He watched in shock as hundreds of muslims converged on his car chanting allahuakbar & broke the windows, trying to pull him out, his quick reflexes saved his life & he managed to get away. He also said that he saw atleast two cars in front of him that had been destroyed & were being put on fire. And the media has not reported any casualties

Interestingly, this morning there was a quote from the RWA filing in HT, which read:

RWA’s lawyer RK Saini contended that it was the duty of the authorities to ensure that the reclaimed area was fenced properly and re-encroachment was not allowed. Saini said policemen present in large numbers also failed in prevent the re-encroachment.

The RWA told the court: “The unruly mob broke the boundary wall erected by the DDA after it reclaimed the land, shouted slogans like 'Hindustan Murdabad, Pakistan Zindabad'.

This reference is now gone and I can only find it here => http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... 50892.aspx

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 16 Jan 2011 07:42

GoI is completely Jinxed....innocent Islamists right...and wicked Hindus...

AjitK · Post by **AjitK** » 16 Jan 2011 10:18

More than one link

A few of those arrested for terror conspiracies launched by Hindu fundamentalists were clearly associated with the RSS. Curiously, some of the same suspects appear also to have worked at some point for Indian intelligence agencies, whether in Nepal, Bangladesh or with the Tibetan refugees. The authorities are understandably keeping mum about the other linkage.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Jan 2011 11:22

CM, Shahi Imam in contempt, says RWA

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/cm-sh ... wa/738015/

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Jan 2011 11:24

Uneasy calm at site of razed mosque

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/uneas ... ue/738024/

“Amarji and Jayaji said that once namaz has been offered anywhere, the land belongs to the Muslims. Our people have been praying at this site for the last 35 years and will continue to do so,” Khan said.

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 16 Jan 2011 11:53

Uneasy calm at site of razed mosque

Is this issue has been raised to counter the decisive Ayodha Verdict? actually a nice issue to divert the consolidation resulting out of the verdict.If dragged for sometime, it may have the potential to break the status quo which is already breaking.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 16 Jan 2011 12:08

Brihaspatiji,

Again, english comprehension is a sine qua non for going ahead with more complicated things...Unfortunately, you (maybe deliberately) dont comprehend..

brihaspati wrote:What else is the implication of mentioning only the Taliban as sharing in a characteristic with the RSS and the Shiv Sena other than trying to do an equal equal with them? You are surely aware that even the Left parties carry out relief operations

If you read properly, I was responding to someone who "complained" that the media does not cover the "good work" like relief ops done by RSS...My point was it is often covered, but relief work doesnt militate against anachronistic philosophy, Taliban being an extreme example (i used the word "perverse") of that...If you extrapolate that to mean Taliban=RSS, then what CAN I say? You sure didnt clear CAT

You will not be able to show direct evidence of the Taliban coming in to carry out relief in POK after the earthquake.

Really! Where have you been? The entire US-Paki establishment worried to death about the relative efficiency of the Pak Taliban - JuD - JuI relief effort compared to the govt...Prompted the US to really string it up....

Dr Amir Aziz Khan, who was arrested in October 2002 for links to the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. He supposedly admitted meeting bin Laden, the charges were dropped - and therefore no proven connection as being a Taliban

Of course Amir Aziz Khan is not Taliban... and no proven connection of Hafiz Sayeed to LeT!

Or of the Pak Army with India-focused terror groups

About KS Lal - he stopped thinking after his "Twilight of the Sultanate" (at least thats what Prof DN Jha of the history faculty used to say)...Prof Muhammad Habib's foreward has nothing to do with the gross injustice to the right wing thinking made (by another postor) in bringing KS Lal in the pantheon of RSS thinkers...KS Lal sure is representative of the quality of RSS scholarship, but certainyl not right wing scholarship...his last contribution to India of course was being part of the hatchet job that Murli Manohar Joshi did with the education system of the country....As I said, since you "know" DU so well (to have info on its "covert" orgs!), ask any student - KS Lal or Ashish Nandy?

And about the East Asian financial crisis, sir, please dont embarrass yourself further without furnishing at least some source of your asertions:

1. East Asian currecnies were pegged to European currencies (which triggered my doubts on your awareness of the same)...
2. East Asian currency peg with Yen was a causative factor for the crisis (in fact if EAst Asian ccies were actually pegged to the Yen, the crisis may not have happened! Or happened in a diluted form)...

Anyway, will wait for your references (I have given mine - nothing great, its a very well known and researchrd topic)...

And BTW, please dont bring non sequiotors in the discussion.

But you have never mentioned the Congress which contained Tytler - as anachronistic, neither did you call it a "RSS".

When did I say that RSS has a monopoly over membership of loony hindus?

JwalaMukhi wrote:Exhibit A: The state of Gujarat. This has been primarily headed and powered by a person who is a product of outdated RSS ideology. If only it had been headed by a product of Marxist ideology, which is the most modern, it would have become like W.Bengal

Wrong JwalaMukhhi-ji, on the contrary, it might be interesting to study the phenomenon of Narendra Modi's extremely fraught relationship with the RSS...Maybe because Narendra Modi is only too aware with the irrelevance of RSS-type anachronisms to modern governance?

RoyG wrote:I think that the reason why RSS maybe hasn't put down any concrete political or economic theories is because a majority of the members feel as though the individual is the sovereign and the responsibility of government is solely to create the conditions for this to exist (currency, policing, military, etc).

It would go OT, maybe we should have a thread on "Right wing politics"...But RSS has polciies around everything including economics...Why was Jaswant Singh not allowed to ebcome FM in ABV's first cabinet? Why Arun Shourie not inducted intitially into anything substantive? Why did a mediocre babu like Yashwant sinha, a turncoat BJP-wallah, get the Finance Minstry? Simple, they had to go along with all the swadeshi nonsense....

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 16 Jan 2011 13:06

somnath wrote:Brihaspatiji,

Again, english comprehension is a sine qua non for going ahead with more complicated things...Unfortunately, you (maybe deliberately) dont comprehend..

..SNIP..

You sure didnt clear CAT

Somnath, the debate in this particular instance is between you and Brihaspati.

But a friendly word of advice - before accusing others of an inability to comprehend, have you ensured that the gambit does not backfire bigtime on you? I don't know about others, but if I were to bring up past examples where we've debated and I've found your own comprehension and analytical reasoning ability to be highly suspect - things might not remain so pretty. I leave it to the mods to determine if we want to go down that path.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 16 Jan 2011 13:17

quote: Wrong JwalaMukhhi-ji, on the contrary, it might be interesting to study the phenomenon of Narendra Modi's extremely fraught relationship with the RSS...Maybe because Narendra Modi is only too aware with the irrelevance of RSS-type anachronisms to modern governance?

When Modi was accused of Killing innocent Muslims during 2002 riot and called by the Congress and the leftist as "Maut Ka saudagar", his allegiance of Hindu Right wing group RSS as one of " the" factor, but his no no-nonsense corruption free highly disciplined governance that steered Gujrat's phenomenal economic success, is being considered as the result of his deep rooted fear of "RSS -type anachronism to modern governance". That is quite interesting. Wikipedia on Modi shows otherwise. He was a RSS member from his childhood and his honest governance reflected that quite obviously.

Born in a middle class family in Vadnagar, a member of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh since childhood, and an active politician since early in life having a masters degree in political science, Modi, along with Keshubhai Patel was seen as a hardliner early on and his coming to the fore in BJP led to a shakeup in the organization with Shankarsingh Vaghela leaving the party. In 1998, he was chosen by L K Advani to direct the election campaign in Gujarat as well as Himachal Pradesh. His aggressive and confident style was successful in the midst of failure to unite between Vaghela's RJP and Congress and the campaign culminated in a victory leading to Keshubhai becoming the chief minister in March, 1998.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narendra_Modi

Also, during SIT interrogation of Gujarat CM, it was RSS who not only denounced the Leftist-0Congress Conspiracy to defame Modi, they came out very strongly to support him.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_le ... ss_1366674

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 16 Jan 2011 13:44

Anyway, after going through the exchanges of our high priest member's wisdom full intellectual verses , my previous observation stood firmly. The talking point will be wilfully subverted with selective sub-texts creating a trap with guided phrases to direct and control the gist of the conversation while ignoring rebutted contrast conveniently with an ultimate applauded thrust and some helpless disgust, the victory of a megalomaniac.

.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Jan 2011 13:48

abhishek_sharma wrote:Uneasy calm at site of razed mosque

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/uneas ... ue/738024/

“Amarji and Jayaji said that once namaz has been offered anywhere, the land belongs to the Muslims. Our people have been praying at this site for the last 35 years and will continue to do so,” Khan said.

Silence of our English media is deafening on this issue.

One incident of some fringe group of 8-10 persons slapping a few women in a pub attracted almost 2 week long wall to wall coverage denouncing the intolerance in hindus in general but this blatantly anti-social act of defying court orders and rebuilding a demolished structure and creating mayhem finds no condemnation from anyone?

If a illegal temple was demolished and thousands from a "certain majority community" had rioted and retaken the govt land, created general mayhem and the BJP govt ruling the state would have sympathized with the rioters , would the same channels have kept quiet?

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 16 Jan 2011 16:25

AoA

Hats off to whoever conducted the op.

Mumbai boy kills India's most wanted

Sources reveal how a small-time convict from Kandivli went to Pakistan and pumped bullets into IM mastermind Riyaz Bhatkal.
Even as the daring shootout that killed India's most wanted terrorist and chief of terror outfit Indian Mujahideen, Riyaz Bhatkal has thrown investigators into a huddle, the needle of suspicion points to a Mumbai assassin.
According to sources, the man identified as the shooter is a former convict affiliated to Mumbai's underworld.

Maharashtra's Anti-Terrorism Squad chief Rakesh Maria told MiD DAY that there is a delay in gathering details of the killing, and confirming facts. There are enough details though, Maria pointed out.
The identification of the shooters and the slain terrorists could be delayed as they could be carrying fake travel documents and living under assumed names in Dubai and later in Karachi.
The killer
Sources informed that the hireling is a contract killer from Kandivli, who was named in earlier supari hits. He jumped bail and was assigned the task to carry out the killings in Karachi. He is known to have worked as an informer in various gangs, and belongs to the lower rung of society.
Who did it?
While the grapevine is rife with rumours and theories surrounding the brains behind the murder, fingers are pointing at the involvement of the Chhota Rajan gang. Sources suggested that the kaam or job was outsourced through fugitive gangster Chhota Rajan, who is known for his desh bhakti banner.
The name of incarcerated gangster Babloo Srivastava has also emerged for his alleged role in providing logistic support to the death squad. While some sources pointed out that the operation could have been masterminded by Indian intelligence sources.
Operation Bhatkal
One theory doing the rounds is that the unnamed shooter was shown the two targets travelling in a Toyota near Karina Market in downtown Karachi by intelligence operatives. The shooter opened fire on the two men, who succumbed to their injuries in a nearby hospital.
Face of terror
Bhatkal has been the face of the Indian Mujahideen for the past seven years. He has been the mastermind of several blasts in the country including serial blasts in Mumbai, Pune, Delhi, Ahmedabad, Jaipur and Bangalore. After his death, the IM will be forced to come up with a new commander to fill Bhatkal's shoes.
Nepal route
The contract killer appears to have slipped into Karachi via Nepal. The back-up team comprising of locals and porters from Nepal posed as carriers from Kathmandu carting items like kurtas and sherwanis to Karachi as a cover for their operation.
Earlier hits
Underworld sources said Indian intelligence had earlier pulled of a similar operation by bumping off Dawood Ibrahim's key associate and Nepali Member of Parliament Mirza Dilshad Baig with the help of Rajan's henchmen Farid Tanasha and Balu Dokre at Kathmandu on June 7, 1998.
Rajan had earlier made dozens of attempts on the life of his former mentor Dawood Ibrahim with the help of his lieutenant Farid Tanasha.
The killer squad had to abort the operations due to the ISI security cover around Dawood. Some of the shooters in Tanasha's team include Bunty Pandey, Vicky Malhotra, Balu Dokre, Ejaz Lakdawala and Ejaz Pathan.
Kaam is the underworld lingo for a contract killing. It is a synonym to the term supari and is more commonly used by henchmen these days.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 16 Jan 2011 18:49

... on the contrary, it might be interesting to study the phenomenon of Narendra Modi's extremely fraught relationship with the RSS...Maybe because Narendra Modi is only too aware with the irrelevance of RSS-type anachronisms to modern governance?

Somnath-ji, studying RSS is a security nightmare. We should focus on most modern ideologies as euologized by august members such as Marx. That should be the focus. Because diverting to debate anachronistic ideology like RSS is a wasted effort. Because it is irrelevant it would be important to focus on modernism. Why is W.Bengal going great guns should be the question, because the most modern of ideologies (marx and mao in healthy competition) has taken deep roots there.

Let me explain why RSS is a security nightmare. Because to understand their ideology it is not easy. One has learn and have proficiency in language/s which arguably is anachronistic such as Sanskrit. Since modernism requires that one focus on what is hot language of the period, it would be wasted effort. Dedicating modernity based security personnel to study an outdated ideology, through studying an anachronistic language is dragging security setup to backwardness. To top that some of these loonies follow so many body of literature that it is hard to pin-point where to begin. Some yahoos even declare that they invented aircraft technology, such as "pushpak viman" etc. Heaven forbid what weaponry technologies their body of literature is littered with, which may be of use to these loonies. The management of security setup is truly tough.

Contrast that to Marxist ideology, it is well bounded in neat little Red book, available in original language which is modern and non-anchronistic. It's easy access is a boon for the security personell to quickly understand the underlying ideology and predict how the followers of modern ideology would behave. So, goes for other important ideologies that are well and self-contained in a book. Truly modern security personnel will have no problems dealing with these modern ideologies.

So, let us not waste effort studying an outdated anachronistic 'RSS ideology' and focus on the modern of the ideologies. That would yield maximum result. If anything all efforts should be spent studying how one can emulate W.Bengal, who meticulously follow modern ideology/ies laid down by stalwarts such as Marx, Mao, etc.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 16 Jan 2011 19:05

Arjun wrote:I don't know about others, but if I were to bring up past examples where we've debated and I've found your own comprehension and analytical reasoning ability to be highly suspect - things might not remain so pretty.

Please do so sir, as long as its without "personal" malice which I find a bit bothersome...No doubt the last comment was a trifle under-the-belt, but I was a bit peeved at constant "personal" sniping (especially about my intellectual" levels etc) by Brihaspatiji, whose prose I find at the very least, quite interesting! As long as arguments can be demolished without personal name calling, we stand true to our calling as "argumentative Indians"! (a term coined by a non-RSS wallah though

)

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Jan 2011 20:50

somnath wrote
Again, english comprehension is a sine qua non for going ahead with more complicated things...Unfortunately, you (maybe deliberately) dont comprehend..

brihaspati wrote:
What else is the implication of mentioning only the Taliban as sharing in a characteristic with the RSS and the Shiv Sena other than trying to do an equal equal with them? You are surely aware that even the Left parties carry out relief operations

If you read properly, I was responding to someone who "complained" that the media does not cover the "good work" like relief ops done by RSS...My point was it is often covered, but relief work doesnt militate against anachronistic philosophy, Taliban being an extreme example (i used the word "perverse") of that...If you extrapolate that to mean Taliban=RSS, then what CAN I say? You sure didnt clear CAT

Well you have a habit of choosing to mention the "Hindu right" always in any sentence you write with an example from "Islamist extremists". You cover it with the context of something that is shared by the two apparently. If that is so why do you consistently fail to mention similar contextual reference shared by the Marxists-Leftists and the vacuum ideology-centre? You always have chosen the terminology favoured by the Congress and the Left for issues whenever alternative or more neutral options were available. For example, you consistently used "Babri" when the alternative term "disputed structure at Ayodhya" was available.

You still avoid acknowledging that it was the Congress which contained Tytler - your example of a "loony Hindu", and you carefully, most carefully drop out the word Congress from your statement by saying "when did I say RSS has a monopoly over membership of loony Hindus". You will again try to dismiss this by saying "everyone knows" and such vague turns of phrases.

You continue to pair off selectively organizations or ideologies - when you deal with anachronistic. If Taliban was a "perverse/extreme" example of doing relief while being anachronistic, why do you fail to mention the Christian relief efforts or Marxist relief efforts - are they also not examples of anachronistic ideologies? Both share "similar" proselytizing ambitions or targets as in Taliban - in the sense that one never denies overthrow of state as an ultimate aim under the dominance of the "party" and the other envisages life and law to be regulated by whatever their interpretation of the ten commndments be? One set of ideas is claimed to have been devised for an imperialist society that lived at least 2000 years ago, and the other was devised with England and Germany of the nineteenth century in mind. You do not find them anachronistic ? One still believes in maintaining dedicated professionals to chase demons and spirits and you do not find that anachronistic when you harp on cow-urine for another? If you always pick and choose among all possible candidates to illustrate your point - what inference should we make about your motivations?

Quote:
You will not be able to show direct evidence of the Taliban coming in to carry out relief in POK after the earthquake.

Really! Where have you been? The entire US-Paki establishment worried to death about the relative efficiency of the Pak Taliban - JuD - JuI relief effort compared to the govt...Prompted the US to really string it up....

Quote:
Dr Amir Aziz Khan, who was arrested in October 2002 for links to the Taliban and Osama bin Laden. He supposedly admitted meeting bin Laden, the charges were dropped - and therefore no proven connection as being a Taliban

Of course Amir Aziz Khan is not Taliban... and no proven connection of Hafiz Sayeed to LeT! Or of the Pak Army with India-focused terror groups

That still is not an answer that the Taliban went into POK for relief work. The Taliban mainly operate in the FATA and Afghanistan. JUD/JUI have supplied cadre to Taliban does not necessarily imply that you can say that the "Taliban" came and gave relief in POK after the earthquake. The international Crisis group actually gives a report which is the most that you can prove on the ground. ICG report. In fact you use an example org which was also seen as readily capable of attempting to prevent relief effort - whereas the relief effort is suspected under formal charity banner. There is also no great political/military/economic advantage for the Taliban to directly come and give "relief" in POK for them to have indulged in such efforts.

About KS Lal - he stopped thinking after his "Twilight of the Sultanate" (at least thats what Prof DN Jha of the history faculty used to say)...Prof Muhammad Habib's foreward has nothing to do with the gross injustice to the right wing thinking made (by another postor) in bringing KS Lal in the pantheon of RSS thinkers...KS Lal sure is representative of the quality of RSS scholarship, but certainyl not right wing scholarship...his last contribution to India of course was being part of the hatchet job that Murli Manohar Joshi did with the education system of the country....As I said, since you "know" DU so well (to have info on its "covert" orgs!), ask any student - KS Lal or Ashish Nandy?

As usual you are still avoiding the main question put to you. If you are quoting others' opinions of him then say so clearly the very first time you denounce his "scholarship". If you continue to cast aspersions on his scholarship you will have to study his works and quote and do proper research and then show that "he stopped thinking". You have still not shown any instance by quoting his work/counter arguments/and an analysis to prove your point about his "scholarship".

And about the East Asian financial crisis, sir, please dont embarrass yourself further without furnishing at least some source of your asertions:

1. East Asian currecnies were pegged to European currencies (which triggered my doubts on your awareness of the same)...
2. East Asian currency peg with Yen was a causative factor for the crisis (in fact if EAst Asian ccies were actually pegged to the Yen, the crisis may not have happened! Or happened in a diluted form)...

Anyway, will wait for your references (I have given mine - nothing great, its a very well known and researchrd topic)...

Again, I asked you a very simple question ; how did you "know" that the east Asian currencies were all pegged to the dollar and Yen and DM were ruled out as being in the basket too? You have claimed that you are a practicioner in real applications in the field - so you must be knowledgeable about the tools used to "know". If you are knowledgable about the tools, and you actually practice you must have acces to raw data - you must be capable of applying those "tools" again? Can you run an analysis for the period [ I think even just the 5 years to 1998 will do] and put it up?

And BTW, please dont bring non sequiotors in the discussion.

Okay. I think it was you who first started casting aspersions on my "comprehension" on 7th January - as far as I can see here. So when you claimed "pegged to the dollar" it has to be interpreted as that no-one declares - but "we all know", as that dollar is in the basket. When I say, they were also pegged to Yen or DM - I must be interpreted as saying that dollar was not in the basket? Who does not comprehend whom - or as you have speculated - "deliberately"? Similar were your twists and turns about role of religion in investment decisions. You did not "comprehend" or as you suggest "may be deliberately" that I was pointing out that religion did play a factor and was used as so - as illustrated by Malaysia. On the other hand your insistence on stability was for me an overhype - because the stability problem that you had mentioned previously only dealt with street/overt violence and that there was actually no such visible signs of instability a sper your examples in the Muslim countries of th eregion like Malaysia, and even after that capital flight took place.

This was to point out that your insistence on no-role-of religion and "visible stability" as being primary motivators was not true.

Unfortunately for you, I did clear CAT GMAT. Simply saw some of the other candidates around me and could not imagine bearing the possible shallowness, hypocrisy and pretension that would become my life! My inabilities and regards!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Jan 2011 21:22

This will go OT : but what ideological background and commitment will make one quote DN Jha as an authority on the scholarship of KS Lal? On this thread, we have been pontificated on about not living in the past - and not being in denial! Who are the people who selectively cut out bits and pieces of history that miraculously seem to coincide with what the Congress or the Leftists have long shouted about - as being the primary causes of our current insecurity?

Here is an "eminent historian" who is actually drawing reference to a current political issue about "aggravating religious conflicts" which is obviously relevant to current internal security of India (at the time of his speech) and about his "scholarship" :
http://www.voiceofdharma.com/indology/d ... story.html

In his keynote address Dr. Jha told the audience "the Hindutva forces, in their bid to aggravate religious conflicts in the country, argue that Hindus were forcibly converted to Islam and Christianity in the past and therefore they have to be reconverted so as to take them back into the Hindu fold. But such an assertion has no basis in our history. The idea that the Muslims were destroyers of 'Hindu' temples and that they converted 'Hindus' to Islam by force is extremely tendentious and is largely unfounded."

Citing Alberuni Dr. Jha said "the use of force in this conversion was neither necessary nor possible". To the best of my knowledge, of all the twenty or so books about India written by Alberuni, only one titled Indica has survived. It is not clear how from reading

Alberuni, Dr. Jha drew the above mentioned conclusion. Alberuni's book is not about Muslim conquest of India. It is "an account of the religion, philosophy, literature, geography, astronomy, customs, laws and astrology of India about AD 1030".

Conversion of Hindus or the demolition of Hindu temples by the Muslims was not the subject of Alberuni's book. Yet, he made some observations as and when these touched upon the issues he dealt with in his book.

Alberuni wrote Prince Mahmud that "utterly ruined the prosperity of the country" and calling these as "wonderful exploits" by which Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions. This, he goes onto observe, has created "the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims". Keen as he was on learning about Hinduism and India, he laments that this has caused the Hindu sciences to "retire far away from those parts of the country conquered by us" and have fled to places where "our hands cannot yet reach". He stayed, it is surmised in Punjab - the area under Prince Mahmud's occupation.

If Dr. Jha was looking for the full extent of the destruction of temples and conversion of Hindus, he should have rather looked into Tarikh-e-Yamini written by Prince Mahmud's secretary Utbi and other Islamic sources dealing with the exploits of Muslim invaders and rulers.
[...]
Somanath is mentioned fifteen times in Alberuni's Indica. While discussing the sacredness of the Somanath idol and its origins and construction, Alberuni records that the idol was destroyed by Mahmud and broken parts shipped to Ghazni; "the upper part with all its trappings of gold, jewels and embroidered garments" being kept at his residence and another part before the door of the mosque of Ghazni, on which people rub their feet to clean them from dirt and wet". Part of it was thrown into the hippodrome of the town, together with the Chakraswamin, an idol of bronze brought from Thanesar.[no Thaparite excuses possible - Alberuni was a contemporary, writing about the same time - and has been certified to be sympathetic to India by the great eminent historian Prof. Thapar herself]
[...]
"The possibility of a forced mass conversion is, in fact, contradicted by Muhammad ibn Qasim himself who, according to Baladhuri, is believed to have said: "The temples shall be unto us like the churches of the Christians, the synagogues of the Jews, and the fire temples of the Magians." Dr. Jha went on to say.

Islamic warriors spared some temples. However, this was not done as an act of tolerance or compassion towards Hindus. Alberuni writes about one such incident. When Muhammad bin Kasim conquered Multan, he inquired "why the town was so very flourishing"? When told the cause was the idol of Aditya, for there came pilgrims from all sides to visit it. He decided to "leave the idol where it was but he hung a piece of cow's flesh on its neck by way of mockery." When the Karmatians occupied Multan, Jalam ibn Shaiban broke the idol into pieces and built a mosque at the same place, Alberuni went on to add.

For reasons best known to him, Dr. Jha does not tell all the facts of the history. He gives only a sanitized account of Muslim invasion, and exploitation.

What DN Jha is saying is not political? It does not encourage or whitewash or legitimize the aspirations of islamists who deny the past records of their activities to non-muslims while maintaining the narrative of a glorious converting/raping/looting past to their flock or internally? Does it not create a dangerous situation where tha intended targets are kept blissfully unaware or even misguided and unprepared - while the actual violent memes or glorified ideals of dominance are continued in the sectarians for future use? Who is actually jeopardizing internal security?

Alberuni's texts, and Biladuri are both in the public domain. People can actually compare what the great "demolisher" of KS Lal's scholarship, DN Jha, claims, with the actual texts. Chachnama is also available with the full glory of Qasim's real treatment of "temples".

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 16 Jan 2011 21:28

Quote:hat still is not an answer that the Taliban went into POK for relief work. The Taliban mainly operate in the FATA and Afghanistan. JUD/JUI have supplied cadre to Taliban does not necessarily imply that you can say that the "Taliban" came and gave relief in POK after the earthquake. The international Crisis group actually gives a report which is the most that you can prove on the ground. ICG report. In fact you use an example org which was also seen as readily capable of attempting to prevent relief effort - whereas the relief effort is suspected under formal charity banner. There is also no great political/military/economic advantage for the Taliban to directly come and give "relief" in POK for them to have indulged in such efforts.

These calamities are God given and the Talibans and other hardcore Zehadis like LET seize this as greatest opportunity in their favour to create local support justifying their terrorist networks and at the same time try to create a local backlash against US pressed Pak military assault in the North Wazaristahan reas etc. These are done through donations and foods during such event and their relentless propaganda about attack on Islam and about the danger created on " the sovereignty of nuke armed Pakistan". Some international media published few articles on thist and they find some horrifying things that the Talibans llterally kidnap from such traumatised poor families thier young kids, as young as 12 or 13 years old and train them to become suicide bombers

Here si you tube video it shows young kids graduated as suicide bombers-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvRtgZba ... re=related

Even girls- a 13 year old girl's interview after she escaped to save her life from being wasted as suicide bomber-very touching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUhRh4UQ ... re=related

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Jan 2011 21:46

arjunm wrote:
These calamities are God given and the Talibans and other hardcore Zehadis like LET seize this as greatest opportunity in their favour to create local support justifying their terrorist networks and at the same time try to create a local backlash against US pressed Pak military assault in the North Wazaristahan reas etc. These are done through donations and foods during such event and their relentless propaganda about attack on Islam and about the danger created on " the sovereignty of nuke armed Pakistan". Some international media published few articles on thist and they find some horrifying things that the Talibans llterally kidnap from such traumatised poor families thier young kids, as young as 12 or 13 years old and train them to become suicide bombers

Here si you tube video it shows young kids graduated as suicide bombers-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvRtgZba ... re=related

Even girls- a 13 year old girl's interview after she escaped to save her life from being wasted as suicide bomber-very touching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUhRh4UQ ... re=related

Yes, they do material input. The question is of area of operation. In POK it is LET/JUD/JUI. Moreover obviously the nature of relief - as you say - recruiting 13 year old girls for suicide bombing - is comparable with the type of "relief" RSS does? POK is well held by the PA and LeT, so Talibs can spare their efforst closer to home battle grounds. But in a similar veing people also quickly jumped to the possibility that the Taliban could obstruct relief efforts - so their pure relief credentials are not that internationally recognized.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 16 Jan 2011 22:16

Many Indologists who have spent their life time to paint Indian Sacred Texts black only to dismiss them as "loony" tales ....they have later regretted and repented their doings during their last phases of life...in the end, Indian Texts are sacred like they were before....gone and perished to dusts are those so called Indologists...so...Brihaspatiji...let people take time to understand things...may be a personal experience will help them understand it better....do not waste your time and knowledge...RSS, VHP vagera are just few sticks in a huge forest...

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 16 Jan 2011 22:20

Now defending Sub-texts because primal talking point was moved further away ...from"Interal Security"

Here is six years old boy telling Talibans told him to press this buttons and it will bring beautiful Flowers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcYykH-V_R8&NR=1

And I am getting disturbing indication of CBI Talibans, coerced by the higher authorities, tempted to use drugs to squeeze confession to satisfy brain dead Clown prince's accidental outbursts to US ambassador-

With the Aseemanada's alleged confession, the Congress government has claimed a big break-through in solving the Samijhauta Express bombing and other terrorist activities by "Hindu Organizations". By doing so Congress has also tried to justify claim of Rahul Gandhi that the Hindu Organizations are the the most dangerous threat to India.

The circumstances in which the Aseemanada was nabbed(?), put in jail for so long under mysterious circumstances and finally made him to admit the confession raise more questions than answers.

Not knowing if Aseemanada had his own lawyer in court to protect his legal rights, his sudden confession surprised every body. Unfortunately, these people (Hindu saints) have very little resources, connections or financial means to fight government agencies like CBI, as such Congress government (and media) is having field day in dealing with people like Aseemananda.

Most people take this confession with a pinch of salt and believe that it is too soon to take it as truly his own. The government agencies like CBI and ATS are known to use all kind of tricks to extract confessions. These agencies have also been blamed by many people, like Azam khan and Raees Khan Pathan, for making false and fake affidavits and witnesses and work under influence of powerful Congress leaders.

The fact that there are some Muslims are also charged for the same crime and have made similar confessions, the government has made a blunder in making this confession public prematurely and could put India in a very difficult and embarrassing situation in the world, specially in Pakistan. Basically it justify the claim of Pakistan that most of terrorist activities in India are done by the people of India , specially Hindus. Even though it is not true it will weaken India's stand against Pakistan regarding terrorism in India.

The truth is that Aseemanada's lifetime mission has been to fight conversions of Hindu tribal people in to Christianity and try to bring them back to Hinduism. No wonder some people do not like him for this work.

Only time will tell if CBI is honest or not in this case. The truth should come out soon. The reputation of Congress and its future election results will depend on it. If this turns out to be only a political propaganda stunt against RSS and BJP, it will be a political suicide by Congress.

The anti-Hindu propaganda and policies are old tricks of Congress and are not very effective any more. Most of Muslims in India want to live in peace and harmony with Hindus and will not vote for Congress because they are no fools and now understand these dirty tricks. They want a government which can create environment of development and of healthy dialogue and understanding between two communities and not of hatred and anger. No Hindu will kill any innocent person Hindu or not. It is the religion of tolerance.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 16 Jan 2011 22:35

Venkarl wrote:Many Indologists who have spent their life time to paint Indian Sacred Texts black only to dismiss them as "loony" tales ....they have later regretted and repented their doings during their last phases of life...in the end, Indian Texts are sacred like they were before....gone and perished to dusts are those so called Indologists...so...Brihaspatiji...let people take time to understand things...may be a personal experience will help them understand it better....do not waste your time and knowledge...RSS, VHP vagera are just few sticks in a huge forest...

Famous one such effort was the original translation of KAMASUTRA by the earlier British one wrongly interpreting perverse male domination during love making to recent Harvard's take on it.We are extremely fortunate to have our glorious ancestors , those selfless sages did some real honest research works for the benefit of all humanity in contrast with other's.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Jan 2011 23:08

arjunm wrote: Many Indologists who have spent their life time to paint Indian Sacred Texts black only to dismiss them as "loony" tales ....they have later regretted and repented their doings during their last phases of life...in the end, Indian Texts are sacred like they were before....gone and perished to dusts are those so called Indologists...so...Brihaspatiji...let people take time to understand things...may be a personal experience will help them understand it better....do not waste your time and knowledge...RSS, VHP vagera are just few sticks in a huge forest...

Famous one such effort was the original translation of KAMASUTRA by the earlier British one wrongly interpreting perverse male domination during love making to recent Harvard's take on it.We are extremely fortunate to have our glorious ancestors , those selfless sages did some real honest research works for the benefit of all humanity in contrast with other's.

My question is did the western scholarship did a fake study and translation of the Indian text. They did a 90% accuracy and then have been doing a wrong interpretations to mislead the future students.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 17 Jan 2011 00:57

Acharya wrote:
arjunm wrote: Many Indologists who have spent their life time to paint Indian Sacred Texts black only to dismiss them as "loony" tales ....they have later regretted and repented their doings during their last phases of life...in the end, Indian Texts are sacred like they were before....gone and perished to dusts are those so called Indologists...so...Brihaspatiji...let people take time to understand things...may be a personal experience will help them understand it better....do not waste your time and knowledge...RSS, VHP vagera are just few sticks in a huge forest...

Famous one such effort was the original translation of KAMASUTRA by the earlier British one wrongly interpreting perverse male domination during love making to recent Harvard's take on it.We are extremely fortunate to have our glorious ancestors , those selfless sages did some real honest research works for the benefit of all humanity in contrast with other's.
My question is did the western scholarship did a fake study and translation of the Indian text. They did a 90% accuracy and then have been doing a wrong interpretations to mislead the future students.

Acharyaji not exactly fake study but intentional "lost in Translation" type interpretational errors to undermine the brilliancy of our ancient Scholastic works. You probably know how the California NRI parents disgusted by the narration of Hinduism in-contrast to Islam and Christianity legally challenged it in the California Court to fight and won and ultimately reverse it, and guess who fought tooth & nail in his effort to demonize Hinduism, none other than Michael Witzel, German born bigget,head of the Sanskrit study at Harvard..

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 17 Jan 2011 01:55

Another ATS goof-up

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 17 Jan 2011 03:31

Rahulji and Digvijayji's New Year's Bonanza to the Pakis -the alleged Hindu terror involvement in Samjotha Express blast-
Now they will squeeze our nuts harder than you expected-

Home Secretary G.K. Pillai said New Delhi understood the concerns of Islamabad as several Pakistani citizens were killed in the blast, but the investigation was not yet over.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/01/17/stories ... 661100.htm

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jan 2011 09:10

brihaspati wrote:Well you have a habit of choosing to mention the "Hindu right" always in any sentence you write with an example from "Islamist extremists". You cover it with the context of something that is shared by the two apparently. If that is so why do you consistently fail to mention similar contextual reference shared by the Marxists-Leftists and the vacuum ideology-centre?
.............
You still avoid acknowledging that it was the Congress which contained Tytler - your example of a "loony Hindu", and you carefully, most carefully drop out the word Congress from your statement

Sir, the discussion was started by a complaint against the media on "RSS coverage" - hence the discussion was centred around the RSS..In case you have a discussion around Marxists, we'll have more references and analogies around them!

About the Congress, well there was nothin deliberate about not mentioning it - he remains a congressman and was a minister for long years..Strangely, why are you fixated on Tytler? The list of Congress "hindus" involved in 1884 is long - HKL Bhagat, Sajjan Kumar, Lalit Maken, Kamal nath - why this fetish on Tytler?

brihaspati wrote:That still is not an answer that the Taliban went into POK for relief work. The Taliban mainly operate in the FATA and Afghanistan. JUD/JUI have supplied cadre to Taliban does not necessarily imply that you can say that the "Taliban" came and gave relief in POK after the earthquake

Well, your nuanced articulation of JuD/JuI/Pak Taliban would be of use to the Pak Army, which strenuously tries to establish the significant differences between various islamist groups

Even the Americans dont buy these distinctions anymore..

brihaspati wrote:You have still not shown any instance by quoting his work/counter arguments/and an analysis to prove your point about his "scholarship".

Well sir, besides quoting Muhammad Habib's foreward (I notce that the reference to that is in Wiki - is that where you picked it up form?), I havent seen any "analysis" of KS Lal from you either..Anyhow, have you read "Growth of muslim population in mughal India"? A book that claims that in 500 years, 60-80 million hindus were killed by islamic conquests...I did - many years ago, and was flummoxed by the stretching of incredulity on the sources and references...Dont take my word for it, you might want to read Simon Digby's critique of that book - it should be there in any good history department library, even if you ignore Irfan Habib's...There were some other jewels about "muslim" rulers having harems and being "immoral" etc - evidently he missed the Maharajah of Patiala, among others!

A more contemporaeneous "intervention" of KS Lal (he was pretty much ignored for many years before MMJ's resurrection) was in Murli Manohar Joshi's education jihad..I remember the old relic (along with a bunch of other relics tht MMJ had gathered for his "reforms") talking endless nonsense on Class VI history textbooks in a session convened to discuss MMJ's policies in IIT/IIMs!

About East Asian crisis, ahhh..Your new stand is..

brihaspati wrote:When I say, they were also pegged to Yen or DM

Can you reference any research that says that a peg to DM/Yen was a causative factor for the crisis? Especially the latter (Yen) - how a lot of people "wished" that their currecnies were pegged to the Yen, in hindsight!

The pain at least woul have been lesser...I have given enough references to the peg to USD and its causative influenes on the crisis...Have been waiing for your references for quite some time now..

brihaspati wrote:This was to point out that your insistence on no-role-of religion and "visible stability" as being primary motivators was not true

Now now, you were bakcing up another postor who kept on harping on how "muslim" countries cannot succeed in the economic sweepstakes because of religion..(he subsequently changed his stance - its not the macroeconomy, but trade...Oh no it isnt trade, only s/w outsourcing!!)...for a country (Malaysia) with macro human development indicators far superior to India's, you may want to highlight how their "religion" has made them "unsuccessful"...And of course, you had this gem about Islamic finance and halaal products being impediements to growth in Malaysia - without of course any backup reference (as usual)...You might want to have a look at thks KPMG report..

http://us.kpmg.com/microsite/FSLibraryD ... inance.pdf

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 17 Jan 2011 10:05

somnath wrote:Now now, you were bakcing up another postor who kept on harping on how "muslim" countries cannot succeed in the economic sweepstakes because of religion..(he subsequently changed his stance - its not the macroeconomy, but trade...Oh no it isnt trade, only s/w outsourcing!!)...

Somnath, basic english comprehension ability should be a sine qua non for your presence on these threads, wouldn't you say?

Here's the original comment I made- http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1005372

Would it be within your capacity to apply basic comprehension techniques and answer the following questions -

1) does the example provided in the enclosed post relate specifically to S/w outsourcing, trade or macroeconomics?
2) what is the key argument sought to be made in the post?

Let me know if this proves to be too much of a challenge given your IQ and comprehension abilities.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 17 Jan 2011 10:56

^^^ Here is quoting the full extract from your post..

And India's economic heft is among other things, also a function of its 'soft power'...which repeated Goebbelsian statements have the power of impacting.

To give you just one example - consider the $70 Bn software outsourcing / BPO industry that accounts for 25% of India's exports today. While India's #1 position is largely due to the expertise of its entrepreneurs and workers, it is also due to the soft power and values associated with India, that provides comfort to the largely Christian Western economies to outsource to the country. To put it slightly more crudely, in today's environment - a largely Muslim country could never have hoped to reach the same position even if Muslim nations somehow developed the knowledge and entrepreneurial strengths to compete; and conversely if India had been Christian (without affecting the quality of manpower and entrepreneurs) it would have been a larger industry. Any change to India's soft power and image has the potential of impacting this dynamic.

Outsourcing was supposed to be an "just one example" of your primary thesis, on economic heft...

Subsequently, you said this:

Yawn...!! Let me repeat myself for the Nth time: my argument was with regard to Muslim nations' trade volume with the west, and more specifically the outsourcing business obtained from the West - and has nothing whatsoever to do with human development statistics

AND this:

This whole issue came up as an example to my central point that a country's image and soft-power is a key determinant of its external trade success.

When actual data was pointed out - on macro indicators, on trade indicators, and on outsourcing business (of Malaysia), the "example" became the central point!

saket · Post by **saket** » 17 Jan 2011 12:02

Someone has claimed in this thread that Narendra Modi has an aversion to the RSS. This is LAUGHABLE, he has always been an RSS member and he talks about his association here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYRRZEuflM8 .

Vivek Raghuvanshi · Post by **Vivek Raghuvanshi** » 17 Jan 2011 12:42

EARLY WARNING – WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU ARE UNDER A TERRORIST ATTACK IN A SCHOOL / COLLEGE / UNIVERSITY / SHOPPING MALL / OFFICE BUILDING / PUBLIC PLACE

http://corporaterisks.info/blog/?p=851