Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

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UlanBatori
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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby UlanBatori » 18 Oct 2019 22:37

How bad is the Kurd "terrorism" concern? Does Turkey have a record of terrorist attacks inside, due to Kurds?

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 18 Oct 2019 22:50

PKK threat to turkey long ago fizzled out. Now, its all sporadic small scale incidents here and there . The real kurdish threat to Turkey is demographic. Kurds and Kurdish areas in the south west and south east have higher fertility rates than turkish areas in the rest of the country. Even in Istanbul, by 2050 Kurds will reach parity or overtake the Turks.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Y. Kanan » 19 Oct 2019 01:01

Rony wrote:Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov later said that Moscow does not want to entertain the possibility of a clash between Russian and Turkish forces.


... sounds a lot like the delusional thinking of Stalin in the days leading up to the German invasion in 1941. Like Stalin in 1941, Putin must know he's in a weak position, so he's understandably trying to avoid war with Turkey. But the Russians are in denial if they think this war can be wrapped up without first teaching the Turks a lesson. Unfortunately Russia has no land border with Turkey, so they really have no way to credibly threaten them short of nukes. And obviously that's not an option.

Now the question is, can the SAA and\or Kurds defeat the Turkish headchoppers (who enjoy Turkish air and artillery support) on their own, without any air support? Russian air force won't help, and I doubt Syrian aircraft would even dare to support the front line with Turk F-16's threatening them.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Oct 2019 01:32

For a nation of their size and economy they have a sizeable airforce...of 250 F16s..i think is more than even UK and comparable to france by pure no.s. Agree that F16 C/D do not compare to a rafale or typhooon or F35 but still no.s have their own advantage ...

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby UlanBatori » 19 Oct 2019 01:36

What would happen if the Backfirovskys were to fire ALCMs at the Turkish air bases I wonder. I don't think Erdogan wants to find out. So the question is, how desperate is he really to occupy 20 km into Syria. I think he's finding a good way to get rid of the Moderate Child Beheaders. Kananji, RuAF has shown no hesitation to blast those in the past, which is why they hide inside Turkey.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby kit » 19 Oct 2019 01:41

ArjunPandit wrote:For a nation of their size and economy they have a sizeable airforce...of 250 F16s..i think is more than even UK and comparable to france by pure no.s. Agree that F16 C/D do not compare to a rafale or typhooon or F35 but still no.s have their own advantage ...



Turkey is/was supposed to be a bulwark against a Russian (Warsaw pact) invasion into Europe.. so th powers that be decided to

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 19 Oct 2019 01:47

I wont count on TuAF. They may have the aircraft numbers (most of which are rust buckets not unlike ours) but they dont have enough pilots after the sultan purged them. And the turks are mightily scared of both the Russians and Americans. What is happening now is neither Trump nor Putin want to "lose turkey" to the other by playing hard. And Erdogan and the turks are counting on that. And so far they proved right.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby pankajs » 20 Oct 2019 13:15

https://twitter.com/abdbozkurt/status/1 ... 7567517696
Abdullah Bozkurt @abdbozkurt

Speaking at African event in #Turkey, President #Erdogan blames #Christian missionaries for converting #Africa Muslims under the protection of western powers, says in many African states Muslims became minorities, and stresses Muslims have now a hard job to do.

What hard do the Muslims of Africa have to do? A possible answer
annamariaableli @annamariaableli

:x Another ,,safe zone,, is needed, I guess, this time to protect Boko Haram.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby vishvak » 20 Oct 2019 14:45

Turks have lied about safe zone ie jihadi buffer in another country.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby pankajs » 20 Oct 2019 14:48

Turks seem to have picked up quite a lot from Bakis. Now they too want strategic depth in Syria where they can shelter/train/arm their jihadis who will then be used against their neighbors and the world.

Similarly, Erdogan wants a version of strategic depth in Africa for similar mission.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby g.sarkar » 21 Oct 2019 04:32

https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-n ... ks-2797829
New Delhi's cold shoulder to Turkey: PM Modi cancels two-day state visit to Ankara after Erdoğan's Kashmir remarks
India has also sharply criticised Turkey's military operations in Syria earlier this week.
Oct 20, 2019

Highlighting a new low in India-Turkey relations, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has decided to cancel his two-day state visit to Turkey's capital, Ankara, that was to take place at the end of October. This decision by New Delhi to cold shoulder the country assumes further importance in the world stage, especially in the backdrop of the fact that Turkey, whose relations have never been very warm with India, is gradually inching further away with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan openly raising the Kashmir issue at the United Nations General Assembly (UNGA) and his country backing Pakistan at the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) meet earlier in Paris.
The Ministry of External Affairs, however, was non-committal over this development. "The visit was never finalised, so there is no question of cancellation," an MEA source said.
The two-day state visit by Modi to Ankara, which was in the talks, would have been the Prime Minister's first stand-alone visit to Turkey after he had last visited the country during the G-20 summit in Antalya in 2015.
.....
Gautam

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Y. Kanan » 21 Oct 2019 06:19

Erdogan appears to be setting himself up for a fall. He's got everyone uniting against him on the ground (Syrians, Kurds, Iranians, possibly Russians) and regional\Arab opinion against him, and general world opinion increasingly against him. Erdogan is starting to remind me of Saddam in 1991, isolated internationally but drunk with power at home, playing to the domestic audience about "us vs the world!"

I'm starting to think Trump and Putin screwed Erdogan on purpose by getting him to invade Syria. At first I thought Erdogan was fully in on it, but now I think the plan was to cheat Erdogan out of what they agreed to. I think Putin and Trump promised Erdogan the safe zone said they'd allow him to resettle all those Sunni refugees currently languishing in Turkey. But Trump and Putin (for their own separate reasons) never planned on giving Erdogan those concessions. Putin never had any intention of giving up Syrian territory and Trump could not let Kurds be publicly slaughtered as he needs their safety as political cover after withdrawing.

Maybe I'm misreading it. Do you think Trump and Putin played Erdogan, or the other way around?

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby UlanBatori » 21 Oct 2019 06:32

Re: Erdogan: Look at the Phillippines' wonderful leader Duarte. Similarly loved and approved by the usual quarters, yet happily motoring on, killing his own people left and right. Erdogan seems to have strong support among non-Kurd Turks who are brought up brainwashed on Hate Kurds because Kurds are seen as secessionists and traitors. ("terrorists" is nomenclature adopted from US terminology). So look at it from those Turks' pov (paraphrasing twitter comments here): They have a massive refugee problem. They are Victims of Terror. They keep getting attacked by Cross Border Terrorism (a couple of civilians in Turkish border villages have been wounded/killed since the start of Operation SaveISIS or whatever he calls it.

So what he has done is what Israel has been doing on a much grander scale for ages. What the US SHOULD have done in Afghanistan (invade up to the Pakjab border of Pakhtoonistan). The ***ONLY*** thing that gives him bad press is that the Kurds are seen as "US Al-Lies". That does not bring much sympathy from Iranians, Iraqis, Saudis, or pretty much any Middle Easterners except Kurds.

I am sure he (and Putin) have taken all these into consideration, and POTUS has probably been advised of the same by his NSA. At minimum the Turkish Safe Zone is a threat to the Kurds to behave, and live peacefully as citjens of Syria, because the alternatives are (a) death and (b) live as citjens with no rights, of Turkey.

IOW, Erdogan is in a low-risk endeavor. He knows he is on solid footing. Of course there may be a pakistan right below the "solid footing" and we all wish him a happy slide into that.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Malayappan » 21 Oct 2019 10:28

India-Turkey relations under Erdogan: Back to square one?
Turkey had two requests of India. It wanted India’s help in the nuclear field. “Turkey has nuclear ambitions, and India has huge thorium reserves in Kerala, and we have a fast breeder reactor which we have developed using thorium. Turkey wanted our technical skills, but the India government declined.”
“And the last straw that broke the camel’s back” was India’s refusal to close down the Gulen-controlled schools and other institutes in India, said Pasha.
In terms of bilateral trade too, it lies in India’s favour. “There is nothing much we can import from Turkey. For the last 30 years, we have been buying pulses, cotton, machinery, and other things; but there is very little else we can buy from them. So the balance of trade is in our favour. Turkey has been maintaining that both sides should bring the balance to more acceptable levels.”

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby NRao » 21 Oct 2019 10:59


Karthik S
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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Karthik S » 21 Oct 2019 11:27

Malayappan wrote:India-Turkey relations under Erdogan: Back to square one?
Turkey had two requests of India. It wanted India’s help in the nuclear field. “Turkey has nuclear ambitions, and India has huge thorium reserves in Kerala, and we have a fast breeder reactor which we have developed using thorium. Turkey wanted our technical skills, but the India government declined.”
“And the last straw that broke the camel’s back” was India’s refusal to close down the Gulen-controlled schools and other institutes in India, said Pasha.
In terms of bilateral trade too, it lies in India’s favour. “There is nothing much we can import from Turkey. For the last 30 years, we have been buying pulses, cotton, machinery, and other things; but there is very little else we can buy from them. So the balance of trade is in our favour. Turkey has been maintaining that both sides should bring the balance to more acceptable levels.”


Considering the demographic in KL, need to keep an eye on possible smuggling of thorium.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Kashi » 21 Oct 2019 12:39

If the Khaalifa(rt) wants nukes, surely all he needs to do is say the word to biraadar mulk and it'll be done with a snap of fingers. Why court India?

Perhaps Khaalifa(rt) is well aware that the emperor has no clothes.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby nam » 21 Oct 2019 16:13

Turkey is NPT signatory, means no nukes.

Moment they try to get nukes, they will be sanctioned. Paks can give, but the Europeans are not going to take a rogue nuke power on it's doorstep, very lightly. Both Turkey & Pak will face the brunt.

As long as Turkey is in NATO, there is no personal nukes.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Karthik S » 21 Oct 2019 16:24

erdogan doesn't look like someone who thinks so much. BTW, he has been threatening continental Europe with 3 million refugee influx.
If you look at it, all dictators love having WMD in their arsenal.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby nam » 21 Oct 2019 16:39

If that was the case, he would not have stopped his invasion. The moment, there was talk of US sanctions, he chickened out.
Despite his bluster, he waited for Trump to say yes, for a action, he has been planning for 2 years!

He did diddly squat, when Syrian troops moved in to Manjib, with Russian aircover. All these bluster comes from being in NATO and support from European arms tech.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Oct 2019 17:55

Kashi wrote:If the Khaalifa(rt) wants nukes, surely all he needs to do is say the word to biraadar mulk and it'll be done with a snap of fingers. Why court India?

Perhaps Khaalifa(rt) is well aware that the emperor has no clothes.

do pakis not have nukes or nuclear tech or neither???

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby UlanBatori » 21 Oct 2019 18:16

nam wrote:... action, he has been planning for 2 years!

Correction: 15+ years. Or for however long he has been Khalifa-ul-Turkey

Plus:
During the pleasantries in Eyerak post-91 Gelf War 1, Yoo Ess was asked to arm the Kurds. But Turks flat-out threatened invasion.
Since Syrian "war" started, Turkish invasion has been on the cards, loooooooong b4 Gen. Vodkov etc came in. Until then they were using their railway system to ship tanks, artillery, C4, ATGMs etc to the ISIS, and providing only covering fire against SAA who tried to stop that.
Even now they are using the Moderate Child-Beheader FSA Mujaheddin to do their main butchery.
Bottom line: So far, all that the "Turkish Army" has done is to get fotos taken as they stand around APCs and tanks. That is so that they can do a PA-style downhill race at a moment's notice. The TuAF seems to have managed to bomb some refugee tents and apartments, killing children as usual. The main battle record of the F-16 aircraft, sadly (Israel AF refined the art of bombing crowded apartments in populated areas in 1982 Lebanon massacres).

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Kashi » 21 Oct 2019 19:39

ArjunPandit wrote:do pakis not have nukes or nuclear tech or neither???


It's long been speculated here on BRF and elsewhere that perhaps Bakis are actually nuke nood.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby UlanBatori » 21 Oct 2019 19:42

"perhaps".

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Oct 2019 22:04

it is interesting in contrast to the quest for supremacy in asia, where china, Japan and India are maneuvering for primacy on economic, military and political fronts...land/political systems are corollary to it...
in ME part of world things havent changed since the beginning of civilization...

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby sanjaykumar » 21 Oct 2019 22:42

I can only recall the words of a beautiful, elegant and intelligent Canadian woman: It's their culture.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby chetak » 22 Oct 2019 04:15

nam wrote:Turkey is NPT signatory, means no nukes.

Moment they try to get nukes, they will be sanctioned. Paks can give, but the Europeans are not going to take a rogue nuke power on it's doorstep, very lightly. Both Turkey & Pak will face the brunt.

As long as Turkey is in NATO, there is no personal nukes.


the fact that erdogan is talking to the pakis and he has made overtures to India as well to procure the tech on the quiet says that he may have a backup plan to meet the sanctions.

he needs peace on his borders and all the refugees out so that he can concentrate on managing the turks without having to feed and house 3 million useless outsiders, in case the sanctions kick in.

If he got the nukes and my bet is on china also being complicit in the deal he would become the terror of europe and they would have a second north korea, bang in the middle of white territory.

the turks consider large parts of europe as their lebensraum.

even membership of NATO has not brought to the turks what they have wanted from the europeans and the britshits and none of them allow free entry to the turks and their never dormant ottoman pride is badly hurt.

which leaves only the rogue chinese their viable suppliers.

Sanctions will destroy the pakis and split them up into multiple countries and still leave nukes in their jehadi hands, so the pakis may be out but the whities will have to pay the pakis to stay out.

turkish nukes would scare the whities.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 22 Oct 2019 05:48

Image

UlanBatori
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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby UlanBatori » 22 Oct 2019 06:50

What happened to Israel after they used white Phosphorus on densely-populated Gaza?

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby ldev » 22 Oct 2019 07:57

The Syrian refugees are confined to a narrow corridor of land on the Syrian border including the towns in that area. They are not allowed to move westward even to Adana or Ankara let alone Istanbul.

It is the confluence of a number of factors that has got Turkey to where it is today. Erdogan and his ego coupled with the rivalry with Saudi Arabia, Wahabism vs the Muslim Brotherhood, Erdogan's strong suspicion that the 2016 failed coup was orchestrated by the US with the active participation including and specially in the Turkish Air Force of sympathizers to the Gulen cause. The resulting putsch has resulted in the wholesale firing of thousands of the most experienced Turkish Air Force personnel.

One of the primary reasons that Erdogan has opted for the S400 system is his suspicion that US origin AAM systems such as the Patriot etc can be programmed to not fire on US origin aircraft such as the F16 and that this can be done without his knowledge. In which case he will be vulnerable to any further coup attempts spearheaded by the Turkish Airforce.

But he is a very pragmatic person. Just like Pakistan and Imran Khan, his criticism of the Uyghurs in China turned to praise when China transferred 3 billion USD to Turkey at the height of the lira crisis in May-June of this year, partly to ensure that Turkey would become a willing participant in the BRI. I am sure that his criticism of India over Kashmir would have turned to praise with the right motivation. But for reasons known to them GOI has decided not to play ball with him. Could the reason be India's new found close relationship with Saudi Arabia and UAE?

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 22 Oct 2019 08:03

Turkey hits back at China’s call to stop military action in Syria

Turkey has hit back at China’s criticism of its military incursion into Syria against Kurdish-led forces, saying it strongly disagreed with Beijing’s call for Ankara to “return to the right track”.

In Beijing on Monday, Emin Onen, Turkey’s ambassador to China, also called on Beijing to stand with his country to fight terrorism, reviving tensions over Beijing’s treatment of Uygur Muslims in Xinjiang, and Turkey’s treatment of Kurds.

Onen was responding to comments last week by Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang, urging “Turkey to halt military action and to return to the right track, resolving the issue with political solutions”.

It was a step up from China’s initial call for Turkey to “exercise restraint” and its assertion that Syria’s “sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity must be respected and upheld”.

James Dorsey, senior fellow at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore, said: “The Turks obviously feel they are finding very little international support, not only in the West, for their incursion into Syria.”

Dorsey said China was caught between “a rock and a hard place”.

“On the one hand, conflict is the last thing they want, and they see this as aggravating conflict rather than resolving it. But on the other hand, it’s the Chinese who have drawn parallels between Turkey and the Kurds and the Turkic Muslims in Xinjiang,” he said.

“Turkey is a particularly sensitive country for China, as it plays an important role for managing the perception of its handling of Xinjiang in the eyes of the international Muslim community.”

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby habal » 22 Oct 2019 10:09

Russians do not want to take on turks because it doesn't want to lose the opportunity of converting a foe albeit considerably weakened now to an ally.

Turkey's military is in no position after the post-coup purge by Erdogan to take on any military, not even the Syrian military. Entire officer class had been interned or sent to gallows or killed. All the turks have are irregulars, who can fight on their behalf. This is what makes them doubly wary of the kurds. The Turks will give artillery support and air support to irregulars to wage war on their behalf. Turkish Army is now fully populated by boys with poor experience, this weakness is bound to be exploited by someone and that 'someone' is most likely to be the erstwhile coup managers viz unkil via culinary.

Russia doesn't want to be caught on wrong side of this game by getting involved in any unwanted skirmish on behalf of the US-ally kurds with zero geo-political returns.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby chetak » 22 Oct 2019 10:25

ldev wrote:The Syrian refugees are confined to a narrow corridor of land on the Syrian border including the towns in that area. They are not allowed to move westward even to Adana or Ankara let alone Istanbul.

It is the confluence of a number of factors that has got Turkey to where it is today. Erdogan and his ego coupled with the rivalry with Saudi Arabia, Wahabism vs the Muslim Brotherhood, Erdogan's strong suspicion that the 2016 failed coup was orchestrated by the US with the active participation including and specially in the Turkish Air Force of sympathizers to the Gulen cause. The resulting putsch has resulted in the wholesale firing of thousands of the most experienced Turkish Air Force personnel.

One of the primary reasons that Erdogan has opted for the S400 system is his suspicion that US origin AAM systems such as the Patriot etc can be programmed to not fire on US origin aircraft such as the F16 and that this can be done without his knowledge. In which case he will be vulnerable to any further coup attempts spearheaded by the Turkish Airforce.

But he is a very pragmatic person. Just like Pakistan and Imran Khan, his criticism of the Uyghurs in China turned to praise when China transferred 3 billion USD to Turkey at the height of the lira crisis in May-June of this year, partly to ensure that Turkey would become a willing participant in the BRI. I am sure that his criticism of India over Kashmir would have turned to praise with the right motivation. But for reasons known to them GOI has decided not to play ball with him. Could the reason be India's new found close relationship with Saudi Arabia and UAE?


it is also very possible that both turkey and malaysia have come out against India on the say so of the hans.

such strident and public criticism of India is a bit unusual for both these countries.

that they both don't entirely like India is also a given fact but, in the past, they have mostly and prudently held their tongues.

there has been a muted and studied silence from both of them since India responded rather uncharacteristically at their unwarranted provocation.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby habal » 22 Oct 2019 14:13

malaysia nor turkey have good relation with the hans. Malaysia opted out of obor. And turkey is annoyed with china over uighurs whom the turks consider to be ethnic turks of eastern turkestan.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby kit » 22 Oct 2019 14:57

I would say both Turkey and Malaysia stand to gain by closer relations with India than a terrorist infested failed "state " like Pk.. and also likely they didn't expect a strong response from India.. I would expect both countries to backtrack from the wise cracks by both leaders.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Oct 2019 15:22

kit wrote:I would say both Turkey and Malaysia stand to gain by closer relations with India than a terrorist infested failed "state " like Pk.. and also likely they didn't expect a strong response from India.. I would expect both countries to backtrack from the wise cracks by both leaders.

kitji isnt he first part true for pakistan as well???
if logic was the only driver..then ummah would have dumped pakistan in 2001 itself...

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby kit » 22 Oct 2019 15:23

ArjunPandit wrote:
kit wrote:I would say both Turkey and Malaysia stand to gain by closer relations with India than a terrorist infested failed "state " like Pk.. and also likely they didn't expect a strong response from India.. I would expect both countries to backtrack from the wise cracks by both leaders.

kitji isnt he first part true for pakistan as well???
if logic was the only driver..then ummah would have dumped pakistan in 2001 itself...


Just to say .. religion doesn't fill stomachs or create wealth except maybe the paki army

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Oct 2019 15:29

^^kit ji you are talking about rationality...in ME it is as common as a rationality in intraday trading...i am not saying it doesnt exist, just that its rare. If empty stomachs were driving rationality of malsis then the fertility rates of Rohingyas wont have been so high...unless you consider that too also filling the stomach of women ..or Palestinians would have made peace with israelis and moved on with whatever they have to take on the battle for future generations..
when people are fed with the dream of 72 raisins in heaven small worldly pleasures like food become trivial..
all in good vein..

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Vikas » 22 Oct 2019 15:39

Mahathir is a Old man pushing mid 90's while Turkey is shooting in all directions hoping to find a ally in the war against Kurds. Problem with both is that they were living in the world of Congress when India would not react to such provocations.
This is a new world and I expect atleast Malaysia to come back with its tail between its legs.
Unlike KSA, Turkey is too far away from Indian sphere of Influence for India to pay any heed to its shenanigans nor Turks have any religious, financial or cultural leverage over India.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby ramana » 22 Oct 2019 22:40

Kit you are being deceived by global/strategic factors when situation is local/tactical factors.

Kumbaya is after winning the tactical fight.

Nehruji was mistaken into think everything is strategic as its so clear to him.

Its the nature of scorpion to sting and foolish to give ride to a scorpion on your back.
As the duck found out in a folklore story.

Both Turkey and Malaysia need geography change as regime change is not enough.

Coming back to West Asia the winners are Turkey, Russia and Syria.
Losers are Kurds who placed their trust on situational supporters.

I want India to play to break up Turkey.
Nothing less for peace in 21st Century.


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