Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

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Cain Marko
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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Dec 2019 10:14

↑ high bloody time

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Vikas » 13 Dec 2019 21:53

How about a private member bill on Armenian genocide in LokSabha, just a send a message to modern day 'Caliph' ?

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby nam » 13 Dec 2019 23:33

What happened to the Turkish offensive, that was all over the news?

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby NRao » 24 Dec 2019 06:31

Istanbul’s New Mayor Outlines Gross Mismanagement Under Erdogan’s Allies

The declaration by the mayor was his first real challenge to the president and the powerful vested interests around him.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 13 Jan 2020 20:14

Turkey's No Longer Best-Kept Secret: Islamized Christians

A recent statement by a Turkish mayor belonging to President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) was particularly noteworthy in the wake of the US Senate's December 12 resolution to "commemorate the Armenian Genocide through official recognition and remembrance."

Mayor Hayrettin Güngör of Kahramanmaraş was caught on camera telling a woman from Trabzon, "We made you Muslim."

He seems to have been referring to the fact that Trabzon, as other provinces in the Black Sea region, used to be a Greek Orthodox Christian city, which is now Muslim -- in spite of the thousands of people in the area who still speak the Pontic Greek dialect.

After an angry public response to the statement, Güngör phoned the mayor of Trabzon to apologize. As offensive as his claim may have been, however, he was actually revealing a tragic truth: that many Turkish citizens are descendants of forcibly Islamized Christians.


Prior to the Turkish invasion of Asia Minor in the 11th century -- and the fall of Constantinople (Istanbul) to Ottoman Turks in the 15th century -- the lands that comprise contemporary Turkey were part of the Greek-speaking Christian Byzantine Empire.

When the Ottoman Turks captured the Greek Empire of Trebizond (today's Trabzon) in 1461, there were virtually no Muslims in the region. In the decades and centuries following the Ottoman conquest, many Christians converted to Islam. The local Muslim derebeys (valley lords) and the Ottoman state and army, via periodic acts of violence, special taxation (jizya), social segregation, systematic mistreatment and humiliation inexorably pushed the Christian population to Islamization for the sake of survival[1].

The Asia Minor and Pontos Hellenic Research Center reports:

"The Turkish persecution of Pontian Greeks and other Christian peoples began after the fall of Trabzon, starting slowly at first and gradually becoming more widespread and terrifying. Massacres and deportations became more frequent and intense. Many Christians reluctantly converted to Islam to avoid oppression and discrimination and merely to survive. During the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, approximately 250,000 Pontian Greeks were forced to convert to Islam and speak Turkish. Almost 250,000 migrated to areas of the Caucasus and the northern shores of the Black Sea that Russia controlled."

The conquests by Turks resulted in the violent and destructive Islamization of the Byzantine civilization. Historian Professor Speros Vryonis Jr writes:

"The [Turkish] conquests in Anatolia were prolonged, repeated (lasting from the 11th-15th centuries), quite destructive and disruptive of life and property.

"The conquest of Asia Minor virtually destroyed the Anatolian Church. The ecclesiastical administrative documents reveal an almost complete confiscation of church property, income, buildings, and the imposition of heavy taxes by the Turks."

In his book, The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor and the Process of Islamization from the Eleventh through the Fifteenth Century, Professor Vryonis presents the names of Anatolian towns and villages ravaged during the Turkish jihad conquests of Asia Minor, from the eleventh through fifteenth centuries. The list includes the names of places across Asia Minor whose inhabitants were "pillaged", "sacked or destroyed", "enslaved", "captured", "massacred", "besieged" or put to "flight."

The Ottoman Empire lasted for some 600 years -- from 1299 to 1923 -- and included parts of Asia, Europe and Africa. During this period, the Turks engaged in practices such as: the ghulam system, in which non-Muslims were enslaved, converted and trained to become warriors and statesmen; the devshirme system, the forced recruitment of Christian boys taken from their families, converted to Islam and enslaved for service to the sultan in his palace and to join his janissaries ("new corps"); compulsory and voluntary Islamization -- the latter resulting from social, religious and economic pressure; and the sexual slavery of women and young boys, deportation and massacre.

One of the reasons for the decline of Christianity in Asia Minor following the Turkish Muslim conquests was, according to Professor Vryonis, the destruction of the Greek Orthodox Church "as an effective social, economic and religious institution." The systematic persecution of Greek clergy by the Ottoman Turks continued for centuries.

The final blow in the long and tragic process of Islamization and Turkification of the Ottoman Greek population was delivered during the 1913-1923 Greek Genocide, in which many Greeks -- especially women and children -- were forced to convert to Islam. Those who refused were killed or exiled.


And today, less than half a percent of Turkey's population is Christian. One result of the persecution that took place is that the number of Islamized Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians is unknown. According to Raffi Bedrosyan, author of the 2018 book, Trauma and Resilience: Armenians in Turkey – Hidden, Not Hidden and No Longer Hidden:

"Hidden Armenians are the present generation descendants of Armenian orphans left behind in Turkey after the 1915 Armenian Genocide. These orphans, the living victims of the Genocide, were forcibly assimilated, Islamized, Turkified and Kurdified in state orphanages, military schools, Turkish and Kurdish homes. In recent years, it has become apparent that they did not forget their Armenian roots and secretly passed them on to the next generations.

"Numbers of hidden Armenians aware of their Armenian roots are unknown. Numbers of hidden Armenians aware of their Armenian roots and willing to return to Armenian roots are also unknown. But independent research and studies indicate that Armenian orphans left behind in Turkey and Armenians in certain regions allowed to convert to Islam in order to avoid massacres and deportation during the 1915 Armenian Genocide, add up to about 300,000. Since the population of Turkey increased seven times since 1915, the descendants of these forcibly Islamized hidden Armenians would number more than 2 million. Although there are no reliable figures about Armenian conversions to Islam during the 1894-96 massacres, the numbers are even larger than in 1915. The Hamshen Armenians, who were converted to Islam earlier in the 16th century but still speak a dialect of Armenian, number more than 200,000. It is difficult to arrive at numbers with certainty, but it can be stated that potentially there exists a genetically Armenian population in Turkey which may even exceed the current population of the Republic of Armenia, although these people are at present Islamized Turks or Kurds...

"Once the hidden Armenians come out and openly declare their Armenian identity, they face many difficulties, dangers and threats in Turkey, surrounded by a hostile state, neighbors, employers and sometimes even their own families who wish to remain Islam Turks or Kurds."

The same applies to Turkey's Islamized Assyrians.
As Sabri Atman, president of the Assyrian Genocide Research Center, wrote in 2016:

"'Crypto-Assyrian' is a term to describe ethnic Assyrians who feel obliged to hide their Assyrian identity... These people are the descendants of Assyrians in Ottoman Turkey. Their parents were killed and many orphans were taken as slaves and worked for the Kurdish aghas. Assyrian women were taken into harems by Muslim husbands and were converted to Islam, forced into slavery, and raised as Turks or Kurds. Orphans, girls, and women were forcefully taken from their parents and were sold on the markets, just like Yezidi women and girls in Iraq are today in the hands of ISIS....

"The Assyrians, who have established the Diyarbakir Assyrian Association, are having difficulties with some of their Muslim neighbors and relatives for asking about their ethnic roots. They number in the thousands. They are proud of their Assyrian identity and do not want to be denied by their ancestry as they seek to understand what they have endured and continue to endure."

In other words, when Mayor Güngör proudly told the Muslim woman from Trabzon, "We made you Muslim," he was admitting -- unwittingly -- to his country's history of Islamization, which, in many instances, included persecution, forced conversion and mass murder of non-Muslims. Ironically, even the mayor's own ancestors may have been Christian or Jewish converts to Islam.

The Turkish people need to learn the truth about the history of both the Ottoman Empire and Turkey. Only the truth can liberate the people of Turkey from the past that haunts them to this day.

Dr. Vasileios Meichanetsidis is an Athens-based historian, genocide scholar and editor of the 2011 book "The Genocide of the Ottoman Greeks."

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 13 Jan 2020 20:27

Turkish parents fear indoctrination at preschool religious classes

Turkish parents fear that religious education at preschools had a serious impact on their children, Birgün daily reported on Sunday.

"My child was five years old at the time. I have seen a lot of changes in him. He began to not embrace or kiss his aunt, saying that touching a woman was forbidden by religion," said Taner Kocakaymak, the father of a 5-year-old boy at a private preschool.

Religious classes were made compulsory for all Turkish schoolchildren in a constitution written after the 1980 military coup, a period when Turkish leaders sought to instil an ideological synthesis of Turkish nationalism and Islam.

But the strictly Sunni interpretation of Islam taught in the classes has long been a source of discontent for Turks who are irreligious or follow other faiths, such as Alevis, the country’s largest religious minority. Concerned parents repeat their objections every year, but little has been done to make the classes more inclusive.

And, the Islamist ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) in December started pilot projects of giving religious education in three preschools.


"The boy was talking about coffins and death. And, he started to distinguish between mothers who wear headscarves and who do not, saying that the ones with headscarves were better," a mother, who did not provide her name, said.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 13 Jan 2020 20:34

The Death of Turkey's Business Climate

Volkswagen recently delayed plans to invest $1.4 billion in an assembly plant in Turkey. Existing facilities, where VW produces commercial vehicles for its MAN subsidiary, may also be on the chopping block.

VW invoked corporate social responsibility to justify its decision to suspend the assembly plant. VW was reacting to Turkey’s unprovoked cross-border attack against the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF), allies of the global coalition against the Islamic State. Since invading northern Syria on October 9, Turkish forces and their Islamist mercenaries have killed up to seven hundred SDF members and displaced three hundred thousand people.

German chancellor Angela Merkel chastised Turkey’s President Recep Erdogan, citing humanitarian issues and the resurgence of ISIS. France, Norway, Finland and the Netherlands joined Germany in suspending military equipment sales to Turkey.

The Turkish and German economies are closely connected; Germany is a major market for Turkish goods. Turkey’s economy would suffer serious consequences if VW’s action has a knock-off effect, discouraging other businesses to invest.

Macroeconomic stability is wobbly and Turkish banks have high foreign indebtedness levels. The Turkish Lira was trading at 1.5 to the U.S. dollar when Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party (AKP) came to power in 2003. Today’s exchange rate is 5.5 Lira to the dollar. While a weaker Lira boosts exports, it has a dramatic impact on the cost of supplies needed for manufacturing. Turkey’s manufacturing sector is heavily reliant on imported inputs, which are now much more expensive.

The Lira crashed again in August 2018, increasing inflation by more than 25 percent, which makes debt servicing more expensive. Despite reduced interest rates, bank lending remained weak throughout the first three quarters of 2019. Elevated inflation and lira uncertainty are curtailing the purchasing power of consumers and hurting retail activity, which contracted significantly from September 2018 to August 2019. Turkey’s treasury and finance minister, Berat Albayrak, tried to rein in fiscal policy but reducing interest rates is a short-term fix that merely masks endemic structural problems.

Concerns about the banking sector were exacerbated when the Southern District of New York convicted the state-owned Halkbank of money laundering in a scheme to circumvent US sanctions on Iran. The U.S. prosecutor called Halkbank a “fugitive” when it failed to appear in court in the criminal case last month. Sanctions will prevent other banks from doing business with Halkbank and could lead to a run on hard currency. Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) has the potential to staunch financial hemorrhaging but FDI requires investor confidence. Erdogan blames “Jewish” bankers for Turkey’s currency and credit crisis.

Turkey is turning to International Financial Institutions to remedy its woes. However, Turkey’s invasion and atrocities in northern Syria have alienated the international community.

In response to Turkey’s criminal conduct in Syria, the House of Representatives recently passed a sanctions bill overwhelmingly by 403 to 16. Turkey may also be subject to additional sanctions through the “Countering America's Adversaries through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), which should kick in after Turkey activates the S-400 missiles it bought from Russia for $3 billion.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 21 Jan 2020 08:21

Turkey’s Libya strategy: cure has become worse than disease

Read more: https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origin ... z6BczYaJIB

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby NRao » 21 Jan 2020 09:16

How Do You Solve a Problem Like Ankara?

DECEMBER 2, 2019

Turkey has long felt underappreciated and disrespected in NATO.

Although the country almost always contributes manpower to NATO missions — in Afghanistan and elsewhere — its most important resource, as far as the West is concerned, is not economic or military might but its strategic location.

“We look at Turkey as the cork in the bottle of the Black Sea. They don’t think of themselves like that at all,” said Ben Hodges, a former commanding general of U.S. Army Europe. “I can remember years ago the Turks saying, ‘You guys don’t appreciate us. You don’t respect us. You only come to us when you need something.’”

...........................................

How the West should navigate the moment is dividing policymakers in Washington, and raising the question: Could a rocky moment become a permanent break?

“Turkey does what’s good for Turkey, period. Full stop,” said a U.S. official with subject matter expertise. For the United States, that official said, the question might become not only “Can we live with a rogue Turkey?” but “Do we have a choice?”

The debate in Washington

On the Hill, frustration is rising. Lawmakers recently voted to recognize the Armenian genocide, a long-discussed move long opposed by Turkey. They are pushing to sanction Ankara over its Syrian incursion. A handful of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have even suggested that Turkey could be suspended or kicked out of NATO.

“I think that we shouldn’t underestimate in this town, in Washington, how people’s long-term perceptions of a country affects their policymaking,” said Rep. Elissa Slotkin, D-Mich., a former senior defense official in the Obama administration. “The Armenian genocide resolution has been a topic of conversation on Capitol Hill for thirty years. And it passed this year.”

But inside the executive branch, officials are keenly aware of the cost of a deeper split with Turkey, according to a half-dozen U.S. officials who spoke anonymously to Defense One about sensitive U.S.-Turkey relations that they were not authorized to discuss publicly. The stakes include access to several key U.S. and NATO sites. Incirlik Air Base hosts American B-61 nuclear gravity bombs, and is a friendly jumping-off point into the Middle East. Turkey also controls the Bosporus, which under a 1936 agreement means it controls naval access to and from the Black Sea.

For many Turkey hands in the U.S. government, what’s new is not the friction in the U.S.-Turkish relationship but Turkey’s increasingly autocratic president. Erdogan has effectively ruled Turkey since becoming prime minister in 2003, assuming the presidency in 2014 and centralizing his power through a series of reforms. A “master politician and a master strategist,” said the U.S. official, “This is a man who should never, ever be underestimated.”

Under Erdogan, Turkey has exploited the power it derives from its critical geography better than it has under any other leader in recent memory, the official with subject matter expertise said. Erdogan’s recent Oval Office visit — which came after his incursion into Syria — and his ability to withstand pressure on the Russian anti-aircraft S-400 system is “next-level stuff,” that official said.

Turkey also enjoys new leverage because Donald Trump has taken a personal liking to Erdogan, inviting him to the White House over the howls of U.S. lawmakers. (Trump also faced fierce bipartisan fire for pulling American forces out of the way of the Turkish incursion, which critics say “green-lighted” attacks on a U.S. partner.)

“There is great frustration at Erdogan personally” within government, said another senior government official in an email. “President likes him, but rest of government sees him as a wild card, acting in highly risky ways.”

“Everyone I know beneath POTUS believes Turkey’s actions in Syria has fundamentally changed the relationship,” said a second senior administration official.

What is Turkey’s plan?

Some analysts and lawmakers have argued that Turkey’s purchase of the S-400 shows it is moving away from the U.S. and the rest of NATO, and towards Russia — or, relatedly, that Russia is using existing fissures in the relationship to try to cleave Turkey away from NATO.

“Biggest problem right now in the relationship is F-35/S-400,” the first senior government official said. “Neither side willing to back down despite high level efforts for compromise.”

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 05 Feb 2020 02:27

Point to note. The proposal came from Turkish side.

Turkey, Pakistan plan landmark deal for dual nationality

The plan, which was revealed yesterday, came to light during a meeting between Pakistan’s Interior Minister Ijaz Ahmad Shah and Turkish Ambassador to Pakistan Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul.

As the move was proposed by Yurdakul, Shah responded by saying that the draft for the law is “under consideration” and that “we hope to reach a mutual conclusion soon,” according to the Interior Ministry.

The improvement of consequent bilateral relations were also discussed, particularly that of military cooperation, with the upgrading of equipment and training operations for law enforcement being touched on.


Yurdakul also noted to Shah that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is scheduled to make a visit to Pakistan in the near future, and that Turkish Interior Minister Suleyman Soylu is set to visit the country in February to discuss other matters with Shah.

If citizens of both Pakistan and Turkey were able to attain citizenship and dual passports of each others’ countries, it would mark the largest bilateral move in both of the young nations’ history and would add significantly to their already-strong relations. Earlier this month, Pakistan extended time to Turkey to deliver domestically-made T129 attack helicopters, which were delayed due to the sanctions the US imposed on Turkey. In May last year, Pakistan also added Turkey to its visa-free travel list, making strives in tourism and business between the two.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Gerard » 05 Feb 2020 02:35

Code: Select all

https://www.memri.org/reports/erdoğans-chief-advisor-and-former-general-tanrıverdi-presents-vision-–-reflected-turkeys


Erdoğan's Chief Advisor And Former General Tanrıverdi Presents Vision – Reflected In Turkey's Policy – Of A United Islamic Superpower Based On Shari'a Comprising 61 Countries And With Istanbul As Capital

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's chief advisor, retired Turkish general Adnan Tanrıverdi, has been articulating a vision of a unified Islamic superpower through conferences and documents published by his organizations. This vision is reflected in President Erdoğan's foreign policy.
The Justice Defenders Strategic Studies Center (ASSAM), of which Tanrıverdi is chairman of the board, has scheduled seven annual "congresses," of which three have taken place, to work through the technical problems in the formation and governance of an "Islamic union."[1] At a recent ASSAM Congress, Tanrıverdi called for the coordination of the joint manufacturing of weapons and military equipment among Islamic countries, saying: "States cannot stand tall against the countries whose weapons they use." ASSAM has also published a 69-page draft of a constituion for a planned shari'a-based confederation of 61 Islamic countries. This constituion declares that "sovereignty belongs to shariah," that Istanbul is to be the capital of the confederation, that the Arabic language would be taught in all of its schools, and that its name will be "Asrica," which is formed from a combination of Asia and Africa.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Vips » 05 Feb 2020 03:09

Rony wrote:Point to note. The proposal came from Turkish side.

Turkey, Pakistan plan landmark deal for dual nationality

The plan, which was revealed yesterday, came to light during a meeting between Pakistan’s Interior Minister Ijaz Ahmad Shah and Turkish Ambassador to Pakistan Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul.

As the move was proposed by Yurdakul, Shah responded by saying that the draft for the law is “under consideration” and that “we hope to reach a mutual conclusion soon,” according to the Interior Ministry.

The improvement of consequent bilateral relations were also discussed, particularly that of military cooperation, with the upgrading of equipment and training operations for law enforcement being touched on.


Yurdakul also noted to Shah that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is scheduled to make a visit to Pakistan in the near future, and that Turkish Interior Minister Suleyman Soylu is set to visit the country in February to discuss other matters with Shah.

If citizens of both Pakistan and Turkey were able to attain citizenship and dual passports of each others’ countries, it would mark the largest bilateral move in both of the young nations’ history and would add significantly to their already-strong relations. Earlier this month, Pakistan extended time to Turkey to deliver domestically-made T129 attack helicopters, which were delayed due to the sanctions the US imposed on Turkey. In May last year, Pakistan also added Turkey to its visa-free travel list, making strives in tourism and business between the two.


A lot of countries that allow Turkish Nationals Visa free entry or e-visa will now reconsider and drop facility or else paki vermins will exploit this loophole to get entry into greener pastures.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 05 Feb 2020 06:12

Vips wrote:A lot of countries that allow Turkish Nationals Visa free entry or e-visa will now reconsider and drop facility or else paki vermins will exploit this loophole to get entry into greener pastures.


Exactly. Which begs the question what's in it for turks since they are the one's who are pushing for this proposal

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Bart S » 05 Feb 2020 08:15

Rony wrote:
Vips wrote:A lot of countries that allow Turkish Nationals Visa free entry or e-visa will now reconsider and drop facility or else paki vermins will exploit this loophole to get entry into greener pastures.


Exactly. Which begs the question what's in it for turks since they are the one's who are pushing for this proposal


Is there a more credible source for this rather than a dubious paki website? The turks probably don't even want the average paki in their country, let alone share nationality. Forget about 3rd countries, everybody in Pakistan who can afford a ticket will be in Turkey either begging or scamming, overnight.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Feb 2020 08:25

The only way that this can be true is if Turkey has decided to fill its depleted ISIS cadres with Pakis. Direct entry to Ankara. Five flights daily 1-way to Houristan via Idlib or Benghazi.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 05 Feb 2020 08:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 05 Feb 2020 08:32

Bart S wrote:
Is there a more credible source for this rather than a dubious paki website? The turks probably don't even want the average paki in their country, let alone share nationality. Forget about 3rd countries, everybody in Pakistan who can afford a ticket will be in Turkey either begging or scamming, overnight.


From turkish media

Pakistan plans to ink dual citizenship deal with Turkey

This came during a meeting between Pakistan Interior Minister Ijaz Ahmad Shah and Turkish Ambassador to Islamabad Ihsan Mustafa Yurdakul, according to a statement issued by Pakistan's Interior Ministry.

According to the statement, the Turkish ambassador on behalf of his government proposed both countries sign an agreement to allow dual citizenship for their citizens.

Pakistan's interior minister was also informed that the Turkish Consulate under construction in the southern city of Karachi will be Turkey's largest in the world.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby V_Raman » 05 Feb 2020 08:37

I dont think dual citizenship mean free immigration. Existing processes for getting citizenship will stay as is. What does Turkey get out of this? Turks can settle in Pakistan rekindling the Mughal dreams?! I don't see what Pak gets out of this.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 05 Feb 2020 09:18

Turkey is spreading its wings slowly in Indian ocean. They have two military bases in Qatar, one is Somalia, one in Sudan.

In 16th century, when ottomans controlled Egypt and parts of arabia, there was rivalry for a while between the Ottomans and Portuguese for control of Red sea , Arabian sea and persian gulf. Ottomans even negotiated with then Gujarat Sultanate via ummah links for a joint attack on Portuguese in Goa and Diu. Before Ottoman fleet reached India, the Portuguese defeated the Gujarat sultan and his successor aligned with them. Ottomans unsuccessfully tried to seige Diu and then turned back home. Now with Erdogan's neo-Ottoman fantasies, they want to recreate those presence again.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby NRao » 05 Feb 2020 09:30

Question: When one mentions "Turks" in then Indian context is it the current Turkey or the ones from central Asia?

I thought it was the ones from CA.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 05 Feb 2020 09:36

NRao wrote:Question: When one mentions "Turks" in then Indian context is it the current Turkey or the ones from central Asia?

I thought it was the ones from CA.


Correct. In Indian context, our mleccha turushka's were from Central Asia. Nothing to do with Turkey/Anatolia.

But both of them are "Turkic". One group migrated South and established themselves in India. Other group migrated West and established themselves in Anatolia. Turkic colonization of Hindu India was not easy and eventually they collapsed in front of Hindu resistance and new arrivals like British. In contrast, Turkic colonization of Greek Anatolia was complete which led to the establishment of Ottoman empire and after collapse of Ottomans, Mustafa kemal renamed the whole place as Turkey.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Feb 2020 11:50


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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 10 Feb 2020 00:17

Turkey: Alevi community exposed to physical, psychological violence

Members of Turkey’s minority Alevi religious community have raised concerns after one of their places of worship in Istanbul was targeted by vandals - just one of many recent examples, they say, of a string of attacks on their institutions and homes.

"Homes belonging to Alevis in many locations across Turkey have for years been marked with crosses and hateful graffiti by unidentified people. One such city is Izmir. According to official records, between 2012 and 2019, in eight districts of Izmir, 16 homes belonging to Alevis have been marked with [crosses] and death threats, and 62 gravestones of Alevis have been attacked and destroyed in two districts,”
"The house-marking incidents started in the city of Adıyaman in 2012 and spread to Malatya, Çorum, Aydın, Antep, Elazığ, Istanbul, Adana, Kocaeli, Bursa, and İzmir. More than 150 houses have been marked in 32 locations throughout the country,”

The vandalism of Alevi homes and buildings is a source of concern for the community, which has been subject to massacres and pogroms for centuries. Alevis make up between 15 and 20 percent of Turkey’s 80 million people, while most Turks are Sunni Muslims.

Özcan Öğüt is an Alevi political scientist and author of the book, “Acceptable Alevism” (“Makbul Alevilik” in Turkish), and the upcoming work, “The Butchery of Alevi Faith” (“Alevi İnanç Kırımı”).

"Alevis have never been recognised as equal citizens of this country. But in recent years, there has been an unprecedented and extraordinary increase in pressure and attacks against Alevi people,” Öğüt said.

Alevis have long been among the most outspoken critics of President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s Islamist government. When hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets across the country in 2013 in what came to be known as the “Gezi Park protests”, many Alevis were on the front line of demonstrations.

“Almost 80 percent of protesters detained as part of the Gezi Park protests were Alevis,” the Milliyet newspaper said, citing a report by Turkish security and intelligence authorities.

Alevis in Turkey are generally estimated to be somewhere between 10 and 20 million people, but censuses have not posed the question of who is Alevi so the real number is not known. Since the founding of the Republic of Turkey in 1923, Alevi places of worship have had no legal status.

“Alevi-hatred in this country is not new,” said Gani Kaplan, a board member of the Pir Sultan Abdal Cultural Association. “Since the Ottoman era, Alevis have been persecuted and Alevi-hatred has been a state ideology.

“And during the republican era, with a 1925 law, all tekke and zaviye (dervish lodges and orders) were closed, which also marked the closure of our places of gathering and worship. The mentality that is hostile to Alevis is still the same today, but its intensity has been on the rise in recent years.”

Turkish state authorities often insist that Alevism is merely a sect or interpretation of Islam. Nonetheless, some Alevi associations and scholars maintain that Alevism is a distinct faith, separate from Islam.

A group of Alevi dedes and pirs (faith leaders), for example, carried out a workshop on Alevism in the city of Tunceli (Dersim) in 2015, where they agreed that Alevism is a faith apart from Islam.

"Alevism is not a sect of either Sunni or Shia Islam. There is an Islamic mentality in Turkey that tries to make Alevism part of Shia Islam and move it away from its original form. This mentality ignores the philosophy and culture of Alevism and tries to narrow it down to a theology only and reshape it according to its own agenda," Öğüt said.

“We are definitely not a part of Islamic Sharia law,” Kaplan said. “Alevism predates Islam by centuries.”


Alevism is nevertheless is incorrectly defined in some textbooks in Turkey. A 2016 book sent to all teachers by the Education Ministry referred to the Alevi faith as tainted and rotten.

“The evil force that has gnawed at tariqas [Islamic paths or doctrines] right at their hearts for centuries is Alevism," it said. "The Islamic world has been the wreckage of those rotten mindsets."

Alevis also face compulsory Islamic courses at school, based predominantly on Islam.

In 2016, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Alevis in Turkey were denied the right to freedom of religion and were exposed to discrimination. The panel of judges found that Alevis "were subjected to a difference in treatment for which there was no objective and reasonable justification".

johb
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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby johb » 10 Feb 2020 01:57

This video explains how Turkey’s inhabitants came to look like Europeans.
https://youtu.be/Erxm70VGjfE

Rony
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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 10 Feb 2020 05:17

^^
Small correction. While its true that turkics from central asia mingled with native Anatolian and European populations, to what extent this has contributed to the current gene pool of the people of Turkey is up for debate. The general consensus is its very limited and the turkification process happened mostly via cultural and language shift and not by genetics. Current turkish gene pool also have some Indian haplogroups in them possibly because of Romani people who are estimated anywhere between half a million to three million (approx 3.75% of population) and are sunni muslims and speak turkish.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2020 15:30

Turkey and Pak are in agreement upon J&K.Inidan MEA protests,issues long- winded statement Sadly our MEA is being taken for granted.Turkey deserves the Malaysian treatment. Send our envoys to Greece and cement defence ties,etc. with,Greece. Turkey and would- be Ottoman sultan ,Erdogan, deserve a kick in the teeth. Historically too, Turkey and Pak have been cohabiting for decades.Turkey must be placed on the list of " unfriendly" countries and taught a lesson. Right now Turkey is trying to welsh on the Syrian agreements and Russia is getting p* ssed off at its duplicity. The Russians and Syrians have stood firm and Turks are ending up in body bags.A trickle now but getting more serious.

We have to have a robust foreign policy with rewards and punlshments for those inimical to us.Like Dostoevsky's crime and punishment, Such anti- Indian attitudes must find suitable pu;nishment.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rsatchi » 15 Feb 2020 18:48

Philip wrote:Turkey and Pak are in agreement.

PhilipJi
They always are/were/and will be:
Remember :
1.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... E4OLPXtaOS
2.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
3.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide
4.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_genocide
They have had too much shared experience in these matters!!! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Prithwiraj » 15 Feb 2020 19:08

Philip wrote:Turkey and Pak are in agreement upon J&K.Inidan MEA protests,issues long- winded statement Sadly our MEA is being taken for granted.Turkey deserves the Malaysian treatment. Send our envoys to Greece and cement defence ties,etc. with,Greece. Turkey and would- be Ottoman sultan ,Erdogan, deserve a kick in the teeth. Historically too, Turkey and Pak have been cohabiting for decades.Turkey must be placed on the list of " unfriendly" countries and taught a lesson. Right now Turkey is trying to welsh on the Syrian agreements and Russia is getting p* ssed off at its duplicity. The Russians and Syrians have stood firm and Turks are ending up in body bags.A trickle now but getting more serious.

We have to have a robust foreign policy with rewards and punlshments for those inimical to us.Like Dostoevsky's crime and punishment, Such anti- Indian attitudes must find suitable pu;nishment.


Ban Indian tourists from visiting Turkey. A lot of their tourism revenue comes from India. Other than that there is not much bi-lateral trade going on I believe.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby yensoy » 15 Feb 2020 19:19

Rony wrote:Turkey is spreading its wings slowly in Indian ocean. They have two military bases in Qatar, one is Somalia, one in Sudan.


Turkey has neither the economy nor the population to be more than a regional player. It could be an irritant to us but will never matter in any significant way to strengthening our adversaries.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2020 21:44

Yes,there are a lor of Indian tourists visiting Turkey,flying Turkish airlines.What we can do to really shove the bayonet up Erdogan' a*se is to engage with Greece whom we've had ties..Alexander,Megasthenes,etc. for thousands of years.Supplying Greece with military needs and exercising with the Greek navy in the Meditt.,army/ air exercises, would show Turkey that it is fit only for Thanksgiving Day!

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby g.sarkar » 16 Feb 2020 01:50

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/indi ... 200215.htm
Don't interfere in Kashmir, know facts: India asks Erdogan
Source: PTI - Edited By: Utkarsh Mishra, February 15, 2020
India on Saturday criticised Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan for raking up the Kashmir issue during his address at the Pakistan Parliament, and asked him to desist from interfering in India's internal affairs.
External Affairs Ministry spokesperson Raveesh Kumar said India rejects all references made by the Turkish President on Jammu and Kashmir, asserting that the union territory is an integral and inalienable part of India.
In his address at a joint session of Pakistan's Parliament on Friday, Erdogan compared the 'struggle' of Kashmiri people with that of the fight by Turkish people against foreign domination during the World War I.
Kashmiri people have suffered for decades and their sufferings have increased following "unilateral steps taken in recent times", Erdogan said referring to India revoking the special status of Jammu and Kashmir last year.
"India rejects all references to Jammu and Kashmir, which is an integral and inalienable part of India," Kumar said.He was responding to a question on Erdogan's comments on Kashmir as well as its reference in a joint declaration by Turkey and Pakistan.
....
Gautam

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Y. Kanan » 16 Feb 2020 07:43

yensoy wrote:
Rony wrote:Turkey is spreading its wings slowly in Indian ocean. They have two military bases in Qatar, one is Somalia, one in Sudan.


Turkey has neither the economy nor the population to be more than a regional player. It could be an irritant to us but will never matter in any significant way to strengthening our adversaries.


I wouldn't underestimate them. If Pakistan can frustrate us militarily then Turkey, being far more capable, is definitely a threat.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby yensoy » 16 Feb 2020 09:32

Y. Kanan wrote:
yensoy wrote:Turkey has neither the economy nor the population to be more than a regional player. It could be an irritant to us but will never matter in any significant way to strengthening our adversaries.


I wouldn't underestimate them. If Pakistan can frustrate us militarily then Turkey, being far more capable, is definitely a threat.


We have no territorial dispute with Turkey; they are several thousand km away. They can vote against us in the UN as they do. They can support Pakis as they do from time to time, even militarily. However in the face of the combined threat we face from China & Pakistan, their additional impact is negligible.

BTW, we need to be careful here to not alienate the population of Turkey who have some degree of regard/affection for India (for whatever reason). Erdogan is only the current leader, but won't remain so forever.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby chetak » 16 Feb 2020 09:43

Y. Kanan wrote:
yensoy wrote:
Turkey has neither the economy nor the population to be more than a regional player. It could be an irritant to us but will never matter in any significant way to strengthening our adversaries.


I wouldn't underestimate them. If Pakistan can frustrate us militarily then Turkey, being far more capable, is definitely a threat.



turkey can support paki with money and arms as well as jehadi fighters.

they don't have the wherewithal, naval muscle, finances, capability, capacity or even experience for sustained long range naval operations.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 16 Feb 2020 10:06

From turkish pro-(islamist) government outlet

Turkey, Pakistan relations peak with defense industry cooperation

In October 2018, the Pakistan Navy commissioned a 17,000-ton fleet tanker built in collaboration with a Turkish defense company in the southern port city of Karachi.It was the largest warship ever constructed at the Karachi Shipyard and Engineering Works. The project was completed in collaboration with the Turkish defense contractor STM.

In July 2018, Ankara won a multibillion-dollar tender to supply four corvettes to the Pakistan Navy, in what was dubbed as the largest-ever export deal in the Turkish defense industry's history by then-Defense Minister Nurettin Canikli.

Speaking to Daily Sabah, South Asia Strategic Research Center (GASAM) head Cemal Demir pointed out aviation, space, arms, ammunition, military vessel construction, military vehicles, electronics and military clothing as the main areas of cooperation in the defense industry.
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Meanwhile, Ankara is buying MFI-17 Super Mushshak aircraft from Pakistan. It also upgrading three Pakistani submarines and jointly building another fleet tanker.

Turkey's locally developed T-129 Advanced Attack and Reconnaissance Helicopter (ATAK) will also be exported to Pakistan. The two countries finalized a deal for the sale of 30 ATAK helicopters in July 2018.

Defense manufacturer Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) had then applied for a license from U.S. authorities to export the helicopters to Pakistan. TAI is currently developing the first domestic helicopter engine with its engine subsidiary TUSAŞ Engine Industries (TEI).
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There are 17 Turkish companies in Pakistan while 233 Pakistani companies operate in Turkey. The trade volume between Pakistan and Turkey has increased from approximately $600 million to $800 million over the last five years.

More than 60 Turkish businessmen will be accompanying the president to explore new investment opportunities in the country. It is also expected that the two countries will sign a free trade agreement (FTA) during the visit.



Expect TRT to become even more rabidly anti-India than it already is

The MoUs include cooperation between the two countries' broadcasters TRT and PTV,
Last edited by Rony on 16 Feb 2020 10:28, edited 1 time in total.

Rony
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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Rony » 16 Feb 2020 10:19

Erdogan's plans to dominate the Muslim world


UlanBatori
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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Feb 2020 10:40

India should ally with Roos on Syria-Libya-Iraq-Iran.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Bart S » 16 Feb 2020 14:27

chetak wrote:
Y. Kanan wrote:
I wouldn't underestimate them. If Pakistan can frustrate us militarily then Turkey, being far more capable, is definitely a threat.



turkey can support paki with money and arms as well as jehadi fighters.

they don't have the wherewithal, naval muscle, finances, capability, capacity or even experience for sustained long range naval operations.


They are also helping Pakis with information warfare (TRT world, multitude of Turkey based ISPR bots on twitter etc). More dangerously they are also engaged in subverting Indian Muslims (both especially Kashmiri but also non-Kashmiri) by offering scholarships to study etc. It is not coincidence that the most rabid separatist spokespersons after Aug 5th have been based in Turkey, presumably 'studying' there on scholarships.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby schinnas » 16 Feb 2020 17:54

What stops India from publicly calling out Turkey as supporter of radicalism and not allowing emigration of Indian students to study there. Also we need to downgrade diplomatic relations and force them to reduce their consular staff and reduce their capability to give tourist visas. Should also cancel direct flights to Ankara.

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Re: Turkey News, discussions, India Turkey Relations

Postby Bart S » 16 Feb 2020 18:04

schinnas wrote:What stops India from publicly calling out Turkey as supporter of radicalism and not allowing emigration of Indian students to study there. Also we need to downgrade diplomatic relations and force them to reduce their consular staff and reduce their capability to give tourist visas. Should also cancel direct flights to Ankara.


Apathy/indifference/incompetence. Turkey is a staging ground and conduit for ISIS and can clearly be designated as a country of special concern (along with Pakistan, Malaysia etc) for that reason alone. So can Malaysia for their hosting of Zakir Naik. Looks like we take action only in reaction, well after the horse has bolted.

Indian market is full of Turkish dry fruits, a ton of Indian travelers fly Turkish airlines especially to Europe, and Indigo even has some code-share agreement or something along those lines and use Istanbul as some kind of international hub! Heck even the tin of effing Pringles that I bought yesterday (only saw it later) was imported from Malaysia. :evil:


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