Managing Pakistan's failure

[A_Gupta]

Waiting for the "Mughals don't work for a living"

[RajeshG]

Governance, healthcare, education, financial institutions, infrastructure, etc.

The above criteria for evaluating Pakistani success/failure betrays an SDRE mentality. Pakistan was not formed with this mentality. It was formed with TFTA mentality.

Even if we were to consider these criteria as valid markers for succss/failure of Pakistan then the way Pakistan would evaluate these criteria wwould be as follows :

Governance : Shariah, hudud laws, Islamic Bomb
Healthcare : Population Growth, Islamic Bomb
Education : Number of Madarssahs per family, Islamic Bomb
Financial Institutions : Islamic Banking, Islamic Bomb
Infrastructure : Islamic Bomb.

The success/failure criteria are different for Pakistanis. Whether right/wrong is a different discussion but we cant judge success/failure by our own standards. Pakistan has its own Islamic standards .

I am not being facetious.

[RajeshA]

Continuing from Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 03, 20 Thread

Sindh will burn if 10% is removed , step will bring them closer to civil war/purification round.

When Bibi died there was some violence in Sindh, and had Mr. Zardari not been there to urge calm, it could have gone out of hand.

From Guardian Dec 28, 2007

There are reports of unrest across the country, with 19 people killed according to a security official. Pakistani forces have been given authority to shoot violent protesters. Police have opened fire on protesters in the southern city of Hydrabad, wounding five people.

The Pakistani news channel Geo TV says more than 100 vehicles, banks, petrol pumps and factories have been set on fire in Karachi.

AP says police fired teargas into crowds in the central city of Multan after around 7,000 people ransacked seven banks and a petrol station. In the capital, Islamabad, about 100 protesters burned tyres in a commercial quarter of the city.

If Zardari also goes, Sindh would be quite upset as it sees, its share of power in Islamabad diminish.

Perhaps India should offer him the Prime-Ministership of Sindh.

[Pulikeshi]

The above criteria for evaluating Pakistani success/failure betrays an SDRE mentality. Pakistan was not formed with this mentality. It was formed with TFTA mentality.

The success/failure criteria are different for Pakistanis. Whether right/wrong is a different discussion but we cant judge success/failure by our own standards. Pakistan has its own Islamic standards .

I am not being facetious.

I get what you are saying, but let me give you a "bad" analogy.

You are a teacher of a class room of 100 students. 99 of them behave in a certain way -
some are smart, some are average and some need vast improvement.

One kid is rather dysfunctional. He cuts himself, performs erratically and is abusive...
It may all be due to this cult his parents have him practicing in...
Do we say, we can't judge his failure or success as that kid has his own
standards by which he may be a success?

If there is one standard to judge the success or failure of nation-states,
then how does Pakistan come out?
However, I do get your criticism that Pakistan may not fit that framework psychologically.
Even if the response must be, so what?

[Pulikeshi]

Waiting for the "Mughals don't work for a living"

Going through edits now... should be real soon.

[RajeshG]

Pulikeshiji

one standard to judge

If there is to be one standard to judge then it should be the succses/failure of the stated goal of that state.

In case of Pakistan, that happens to be Islam.

[Pulikeshi]

^ In the schools I attended, we were all judged by one standard that of the school's.
Suffice to say, I have never had the privilege of being judged by my own standard.
My academic success was varied, even if I was brilliant in my own mind onlee

[A_Gupta]

Governance, healthcare, education, financial institutions, infrastructure, etc.

The above criteria for evaluating Pakistani success/failure betrays an SDRE mentality. Pakistan was not formed with this mentality. It was formed with TFTA mentality.

I am in sympathy with RajeshG. Let us look at this opinion piece by a self-professed Pakistani liberal.
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?pa ... 2010_pg3_5

It talks about the necessity of democracy in Pakistan. Not because democracy might make life for Pakistanis better (the article begins with the idea that life in Pakistan is already better than that in India). It is necessary to gain "respectability".

There are a few simple facts that need to be driven home if we want Pakistan to attain some form of respectability in the wider world.

The arguments for democracy are:

1. Jinnah wanted it.
2. It is the only road that leads anywhere (where is not spelled out).
3. It is the only way to express Pakistan's multiculturalism and ethnic diversity.

If we take stock of these facts and make a solemn covenant that no matter what happens we will not deviate from the democratic path, there is no reason why we cannot one day in the future hold our heads high amongst the peoples of the world.

Absolutely no SDRE concerns. The main attraction is to "hold our heads high".

To me, the reasons for India to have a good reputation are that
a. no smoke without fire - it will mean that governance, health care, financial institutions, etc., are functioning reasonably well.
b. it will open doors of opportunity for Indians.
c. The "holding of heads high" comes from real accomplishments. (siddhirbhavatu karmaja and all that).

[ramana]

RajeshA, I was telling some members a couple of weeks ago that by making Zardari the President the US staved off the impending splits in Paksitan after BB's death.

In the civilian leadership it is the PPP that has presence in all of TSP. The PML in all its factions is maily a Pakjabi party.

If Z goes it will be quite gut wrenching to Sindh. They feel the Pakjabi domination in all spheres of life(Army, Business, Govt) and the loss of even token power would be quite disheartening.

[Lalmohan]

^ In the schools I attended, we were all judged by one standard that of the school's.
Suffice to say, I have never had the privilege of being judged by my own standard.
My academic success was varied, even if I was brilliant in my own mind onlee

'you see, by your standard it might be ok, but by his standard or his standard or their standard, it might be higher standard'

sounds like this needs crossposting to the CWG R&D dhaaga?!

[RajeshA]

Pulikeshiji

one standard to judge

If there is to be one standard to judge then it should be the succses/failure of the stated goal of that state.

In case of Pakistan, that happens to be Islam.

So let's see if they have lived up to their own standards of Islam. To use the more extremer description of its mission:
Islam is supposed

1. to unite all the people under the flag of Islam,
2. to impose the rule of Muslims over the Kufr and
3. to enforce Islamic piety.

The results:

1. People in Pakistan are totally disunited - on sectarian grounds, Muslims fighting excommunicated Muslims, the Ahmediyas; Sunnis fighting Shias; Deobandis fighting Barelvis; Wahhabis fighting Deobandis; on ethnic grounds - Pakjabis fighting Pakhtun Baluchis fighting Pakjabi, Sindhis fighting Mohajirs, Mohajirs fighting Pushtuns; on class grounds - elite fighting the poor, waderas against their slaves.
2. Pakistanis in their eagerness to start the Islamic experiment ruined Islam in South Asia by separating from India and giving the Hindus the room and space to reinvigorate.
3. Bollywood and ***** is rampant in Pakistan. Pakistan is the land with the most Google searches using terms like 'goat sex', 'donkey sex', etc. Also Pakistan has the most drug addicts in the world. Let's also not forget the corruption levels in Pakistan.

So report card says, failed on all accounts.

[RajeshA]

RajeshA, I was telling some members a couple of weeks ago that by making Zardari the President the US staved off the impending splits in Paksitan after BB's death.

In the civilian leadership it is the PPP that has presence in all of TSP. The PML in all its factions is maily a Pakjabi party.

If Z goes it will be quite gut wrenching to Sindh. They feel the Pakjabi domination in all spheres of life(Army, Business, Govt) and the loss of even token power would be quite disheartening.

At the moment we have

• Supreme Court - in the hands of CJP Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry, a Pakjabi.
• Army - in the hands of Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Pakjabi
• Provincial Government of the most powerful province, Pakjab - in the hands of Shahbaz Sharif, a Pakjabi
• Government of Pakistan - in the hands of Yousaf Raza Gillani, a Seraiki (part of Pakjab)

Now Nawaz Sharif worked very hard to get Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry back in CJP's position, and both of them have been working to get rid of Asif Ali Zardari, Pakistan's President, by getting rid of NRO.

I don't think, the Americans are really very pleased with this development. What Americans would like is that they have somebody in power in Pakistan, who is dependent on them, and due to Zardari's many stashes of money in Switzerland and elsewhere, he is dependent on America for not exposing him. He also owes his position to the deal with Musharraf, a deal put together by the Americans.

Nawaz Sharif seems to enjoy the support of Saudi Arabian rulers, who are not all too enamoured by Zardari, a Shi'ite, but are accepting him, because the Americans have leaned on to the House of Saud. This may not last all too long. Nawaz Sharif also has his own ambitions of Prime Ministership and Amir-ul-Momineen.

With Zardari's popularity in the doldrums, even the Americans may consider a change of leadership. Sindh may come out a loser.

[Pulikeshi]

Nation-states can be judged in many ways, I've chosen to judge it politico-economically.
Democracy or some other system, in the end any regime (including Chinese) will have to deliver
politico-economic good to the people. Democracy happens to be more efficient at that, even if
sometimes it seems slow and reactive. Many empires thrived without our modern understanding
of democracy. We could even articulate successful Dharmic ones that do not fit the mold per se.
None of that matters wrt to Pakistan.

I have said this many time before, but it may be worth repeating.
Even if Pakistan were Buddhist (just an example!), it would fail - out of topic to discuss.
Will be glad to if there is an avenue and interest in GDF (but frankly it is boring...)

The Indian nation-state has no mandate to take on the task of reforming Islam or helping
Pakistan to succeed or fail in its stated goal of becoming an Islamic state.
The Indian nation-state needs policy options regarding Pakistan and end goals to the
neighborhood. Indeed one cannot choose ones neighbors -
but one can restructure them to confirm to zoning restrictions in the neighborhood.

[Hari Seldon]

So, Zardari gets the boot, what then? Pakistan na khappey, eh? LOL. That would be a fun watch.

As usual Zardu balm will also most likely get assylum in UKstan. Maybe even the house next to Gola's in London's West end, who knows, eh?

[Lalmohan]

^^^ in between Mush and Blair opposite Abdul's Kebab shop

[ramana]

RajeshA, I used to think 10% was chosen for the reason you state till I realised the importance of PPP as a political entity and the importance of Sindh to the integrity of TSP. Its not K-P spinning away but Sindh going out that will bring TSP down. Sindh elite still thinks it can have say in running TSP. Thats what keeps them there.

[RajeshA]

X-Posted from Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent - II Thread

Published on Mar 23, 2001
By Sirajul Haque Memon
Genesis of Separatist Sentiment in Sindh: Free Sindh Blog

The Sindhis feel that they are a separate and full-fledged nation, according to the recognized political, social as well as cultural principles. They are proud of their past, their language, their culture, their literature and their folklore. They are proud of the resistance movements of their forefathers against the Greeks (Alexander the Great), the Achaemenids (Darius-I), the Arabs, the Taghlaks, the Mughals and the Arghuns, Nadir Shah and the Afghan marauders like Shah Shuja and lastly the British.

The battles of Miani and Dabo against the British which resulted in the enslavement of Sindhis have a central place in their folklore and poetry, especially the bravery and sacrifices of heroes like Hoshu. Language and literature play a very vital part in the building blocks of nationalism - call it separatist sentiment or give it any other derogatory name. The fact is that Sindh has an extremely rich literature which has inspired its people for centuries to fight for their freedom and liberty.

It is in this background that the recent past has to be evaluated. The British introduced the people of Sindh to modern education through their mother-tongue. Sindhi language not only became a vehicle for education but it also acted as a political tool through the medium of journalism. By the 1930's, a number of daily and weekly newspapers were published from Karachi, Hyderabad and Sukkur.

We need to look for opportunities in Sindhi Nationalism.

[ramana]

Need to popularize Sindhi language. Its very important issue. Unfortunately it was not given much thought.

[ramana]

x-post...
Meanwhile Nightwatch comments
9/27/2010

Pakistan: Security. Pakistani intelligence has warned about the threat of attacks against high profile military officials. At a meeting supposedly held in Afghanistan, Pakistani Taliban leaders decided to assassinate the Chief of Army Staff, General Kayani, and the Pakistan Army's corps commanders.

Comment: This report should not be taken at face value because it is not at all clear the Pakistani Taliban have the capability or desire to pose a serious threat to the most protected military officers in Pakistan and face the consequences of trying to assassinate them. Such a directive would amount to a death wish for the Pakistani Taliban. Either the threat is wishful thinking, a canard, or something more sinister.

The something more sinister is a disinformation campaign to build pressure for a military takeover of government in the interest of national security. A strong popular impulse now supports another Army takeover. The elected government has been inefficient and slow in responding to and managing national problems, especially the floods.

The flood victims and their families are impatient for help. The Army is the one government institution that has responded well… with lots of unacknowledged US assistance. Political groups that favor a return to military rule are capable of crafting disinformation that promotes an Army takeover.

Politics. The government of Prime Minister Gilani decided to dismiss the National Reconciliation Order (NRO) ministers and other high officials, The Nation reported on 27 September. Prime Minister Gilani reportedly engaged in serious deliberations about relieving NRO ministers and apparently convinced the government to move forward, unidentified sources said, adding that Gilani will form a new Cabinet.

Comment: NRO ministers are members of the cabinet held over from the Musharraf era. His NRO suspended their sentences for a wide range of corruption charges that would otherwise have disqualified them from public service. Gilani kept some of them in his government and in public service. Last December the Supreme Court found the NRO to be unconstitutional and reinstated the sentences Musharraf tried to waive, but failed to pardon.

The Court has moved slowly to require execution of its mandate, but is out of patience. Nevertheless, the latest push for action appears intended to force the elected government to acknowledge the Court as an equal branch of government, rather than to create a crisis that could lead to a military takeover.

The Chief Justice wants the rule of law institutionalized as a counterweight to military usurpation of the Constitution. In his view, there are now no institutional impediments to another military coup in that the elected government survives at military sufferance. The Chief Justice intends to establish those blocks which will make military intervention a constitutional crime that can never be excused, as was done by Musharraf's tampering with the Court.

Late update. The Supreme Court accepted a government request to suspend the hearing about the implementation of its order regarding the National Reconciliation Order (NRO) sentences.

The Court agreed to continue the case until 13 October. In return, President Zardari, Prime Minister Gilani and Chief of Army Staff General Kayani met and agreed to settle all issues resulting from the Court's order in accordance with the Constitution. Unidentified sources said the three officials agreed there would be no compromises on good governance.

Comment: This past weekend Musharraf announced his forthcoming return to Pakistan from London to establish a new political party. Musharraf continues to regard himself in messianic terms, as the savior of Pakistan.

The action of the Court and the legislative and executive branches of government plus the Army ensures that any Musharraf interlopers and holdovers will be ejected from the government. Musharraf hand picked General Kayani, but Kayani has proven to be his own man, with the strong support of Prime Minister Gilani.

[shiv]

I think nobody needs to be deluded by any news that the Pakistan army wants to take over for "patriotic reasons" to "save the country from corrupt politicians"

I think we know Pakistan and other structured criminal syndicates well enough to understand that an armed faction needs to interfere when its bottom lines are being squeezed. The army allows a particular civilian set up to survive with the tacit understanding that the money and business deals that benefit army generals and their friends are not interfered with in any way. This has nothing to do with what is good for the people of Pakistan at large.

A nation of 170 million where 50% are poor and illiterate but the army that consists of perhaps a million personnel corners 20% of the budget does not strike me as a nation that has its priorities right except in the sense of "might is right"

It would be totally foolish to think "Zardari was Ok when he started, but is worse now". Zardari was always a US sponsored puppet. When Zardari came to power the US was still in the "Dubya mode" of giving 1.5 billion to army and 1.5 billion to Pakistan. But since Ombaba - accountability is being demanded with less going to army. This is probably leading to rumbles of dissatisfaction within the senior corpse kamandu cadre. There is a very real threat to the army. In the Pakistan army - if you are say 55 years old and nearing retirement - you have only a few years when you hold the purse strings for arms deals and the envelopes that come. If you don't make it in those few years - you will end up becoming like 100 million other poor Pakis.

So it is greed and unhappiness over less loot that will make the army unhappy. Let us not be fooled this time around that the a army will "manage the economy better" or "give better governance". After all that is what idiot media commentators will be saying, and we fall for it every time.

[RajeshA]

Ethnic Faultlines: Sindh

Published on Sep 28, 2010
By Salman Siddiqui
Drawing parallels across party lines: Express Tribune

Just as the MQM cites the threat of terrorism when there is talk of settling the Pakhtun in Sindh, Ayaz Latif Palijo of the Awami Tehrik draws on the Sindh-for-Sindhis card. “Pakistan was not founded to burden one province,” he said. “I believe people should be settled in their own province. As it is, there is a law and order situation in Karachi and an influx [of people] from some other province would only add fuel to the fire.”

Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz’s Bashir Qureshi argues that flood survivors should stay within the boundaries of their own province because, “it’s not like the entire province has been submerged. People from the Punjab especially and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa should remain inside their provinces”.

“In Sindh, contrary to popular belief, there are not many jageerdaars. In fact they can be counted on one’s fingertips,” he claimed. The main threat is from corrupt army generals, most of whom, he alleged belonged to the Punjab. “Now why doesn’t the MQM talk about a struggle against these forces?” he asked, adding that the party instead chose to “invite” martial law to the country.

For a successful partition of Pakistan along ethnic lines, one needs to see a roll-back of pan-Pakistani institutions, and PPP is one such institution. Considering that PPP is the only party with a country-wide grass-roots following, it would be beneficial if something changes on that account - either the regional satraps of PPP create their own parties, or the party weakens in strength.

The Sindhi regional nationalist parties within Pakistan need to be strengthened - parties like

1. GM Syed’s Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz
2. Rasool Bakhsh Palijo’s Awami Tehrik (AT)
3. Qadir Magsi’s Sindh Tarraqi Pasand Party (STPP) and
4. Mumtaz Bhutto’s Sindh United Party
5. Sindh Save Movement

India needs to network with these other parties and help them establish their para-military wings. PPP and MQM enjoy street power in Sindh. These regional parties should be empowered to hold their ground.

Of course, when the term of this government comes to an end, PPP would have been thoroughly discredited and lost a lot in public sympathy. It is then that these Sindhi nationalist parties can come up and build a stronger base in the Sindhi society. By the end of this government's term, PPP should be discarded by the people of Sindh and Pakistan and a pan-Pakistani institution should be relegated to history.

India should start making inroads now.

[RajeshA]

Ethnic Fault Lines: Sindh

Posted on Feb 21, 2010
Sindhu River for Sindhis only, no to power plant on C-J Link Canal

Awami Tehrik leader Rasul Baksh Palijo said that Punjab should decide if it wants water or Pakistan. All decisions regarding water distribution over the past 60 years are illegal and unjust, he said. Ayaz Latif Palijo of the same party said, “If the Punjab government stops our water, we will stop gas and petrol supplies to their province.

[RajeshA]

Ethnic Fault Lines: Sindh

Published on Sep 22, 2010
Sindhi Nationalists Rally against Government Policies: Pakistan Christian Post

On the call of Six Nationalist Party Alliance in Sindh including Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz (JSQM), Sindh United Party (SUP), Awami Tehreek (AT), Sindh Tarraqi Passand Party (STP), Sindh Save Moment (SSM), Jeay Sindh Mahaz (JSM) observed protest demonstration and rallies were taken out in province against the present government for misuse of funds and improper treatment of flood affectees in various districts as well as expelling the flood affectees from Karachi.

[RajeshA]

Ethnic Fault Lines: Sindh

Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz (Sindhi: جيئي سنڌ قومي محاذ, JSQM) is a separatist group of Sindh alliance of almost all of Jeay Sindh factions. The founder was Sain G M Syed who died on 25 April 1995. Abdul Wahid Aaresar was selected first chairman of Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz his appointment was criticized by the senior members of JSQM because of his relationship with MQM.

The Jeay Sind movement is Sindhi nationalist movement founded by G M Syed in 1972 to help Sindhi separatists forces to separate Sindh from Pakistan. It was later renamed Jeay Sindh Tahreek by militant groups. Sindhi separatists propagate the view that they suffer from disenfranchisement at the hands of Pakistan's Punjabi majority. In the 1st international conference of International Sindhi United Movement separatist group declared themselves the liberation movement of Sindh and formally approached the Indian foreign office for the help. The main causes of this claim is the idea promoted by Sindhi nationalists that water resources are diverted disproportionately to the Punjab region at Sindh's expense, particularly the water from the Kalabagh Dam and Thal canal, which divert water resources away from Sindh; this allegation was dismissed by domestic and international experts,especially as Pakistan Government had already banned the construction of the Kalabagh dam on the insistence of Sindh government.The movement is heavily criticized for only concentrating on blaming the Punjabis for Sindh's ills such as trying to lay all blame on Sindh's water shortage on Punjab,instead of the Sindhi politicians who have shelved several plans to develop the rich water resources that Sindh has been endowed with,particularly lower Sindh.

The movement has lost popular support as the Pakistan Peoples Party has won elections and Sindhis have been elected to highest positions in Government of Pakistan and Government of Sindh. These include the holder of the most powerful position in the Federal Government,the president Asif Ali Zardari.

The movement, which demands the creation of an independent Sindhu Desh has a strong base among some student political groups, but no Sindhi nationalist party has come to power in Sindh till now as free elections have not taken place.

Some Inqlabi Songs

[RajeshG]

Pulikeshi

In the schools I attended, we were all judged by one standard that of the school's.

You (your parents actually) chose to be judged by school standards. You prob appeared for JEE and learned about crazy SDRE things like Chandrashekhar limits and Heisenwho principals. No such craziness for TFTA pakistanis. They shall only be judged by Allah on judgement day. I will give an equally silly analogy. When trouble brews in Kashmir, what do SDREs talk about ? Governance Deficit. When TFTA Pakistan breaks in 2 - a catastrophic event by any standards - what do TFTA Pakistanis think ? That they havent been true muslims.

RajeshA

So report card says, failed on all accounts.

TFTA Pakistanis will probably interpret this as "We havent been Islamic enough".

[Pulikeshi]

TFTA Pakistanis will probably interpret this as "We havent been Islamic enough".

I can see your point, but so what? Who cares what the TFTA think or don't think?
What do you suggest India or the world do with Pakistan?

[Pratyush]

Force them to be more Islamic. While continuing to hammer them.

I am certain that conditions exist in TSP to make it a Somalia. It unfolding will require some work but will be worth the effort.

[Pulikeshi]

So you collapsed the country, what next?
Especially when a bunch of fundu refugees come knocking down North India?

[Pratyush]

Create a safe heaven inside the FTSP for the refugees.

Moreover, my idea is to cause a reduction in population of TSP without resorting to genocide or using a WMD. Creating a Somalia like situation is the only thing I can think off that can achieve a 15 to 20 % drop in TSP population in 2 to 3 years of troubles

[RajeshA]

RajeshA

So report card says, failed on all accounts.

TFTA Pakistanis will probably interpret this as "We havent been Islamic enough".

Your contention was that Pakistan's success as a nation should not be measured by international standards of measuring success or failure, but rather by their own measuring stick of Islam.

Report Card (By international standards) - total failure
Report Card (By Islamic standards) - failure.

They're a failure not just because of a failure in nation-building as per international norms, but also because of their defeats at the hands of the Kafirs, which allowed their lands to be invaded and occupied or their attacks were simply repulsed. They have always needed better swords, better deceit and better organization to impose their Islamic system on others. So whereas better organization is still possible for the purpose, better swords are difficult to come by - West, China, India are still the stronger countries militarily. Due to the dynamics of Peak Oil and controls on Immigration, their ability to organize would also subside. The most potent loss for them has been their steady loss of capacity to use deceit. The Islamists are no more under the radar. Even a left-winger such as Obama can recognize the cancer.

So Islam is headed for failure.

That may be an outsider's view for the reasons of their failure. But by your own argument "We haven't been Islamic enough" shows that they too concede that they have been failures. If by going through repeated iterations of Islamization, accompanied by a steady breakdown of their Pakistan, if they still think they need more Islam, it should be evident that their solution to their failure is also wrong.

Whatever yardstick one uses, Pakistanis have failed as a nation.

[Lalmohan]

^^^ the smarter ones amongst them have already got the message, particularly NRP's - many of whom are increasingly rediscovering their Indic roots

[Pulikeshi]

Think of it a different way - three power pillars: Army, Mullah-Jihadi and Neta.

Neta is slowly becoming meaningless. Soon Neta will be pushed to apply taxes - will be hated!
Means the only two forces will remain in TSP: Army & Mullah-Jihadi.
Eventually only one of them will remain and then comes the end.

There has been a similar equivalent before - roughly the switch from Akbar to Aurangzeb.
Eventually, even Aurangzeb laments that he messed up the taxes and revenue system so vital
to the upkeep of the empire. Soon thereafter come irrelevance and subservience to the Indic.

If my prediction is right, they will rediscover Indic roots whether they like it or not!
Watch this space - hope to summarize this better

[RajeshA]

X-Posted from TIRP Thread

If paquis are not around 10 years from now. What will happen to plebicite? would valley Roper would merge with pakjabi or taller than mountain breather sitting in balwaristan?

Pakis are not going anywhere. Their three and half friends each representing a distinct world view needs Pakistan in current form for various different reasons. Saudis or Turkey do not want Pakistan divided or attacked on if they can help it. China needs it to box India and as a conduit to Islamic world. America needs it for...well it is very well known.

It is quite certain that no borders are changing unless there is a major war in this world. India neither has power nor has willingness to fight the world for the purpose of dividing Pakistan. For some reason if interests are aligned enough and more countries clamour for division of Pakistan they will have to face the paranoid Pakistan just as India has been facing since inception. Nobody wants to start any war where nuclear weapons can be potentially used.

Given the situation and the past experience it is prudent to not rely on a some random possibility as a matter of policy. India should up the ante with the help of Indian muslims by questioning the creation of Pakistan. Argue that the idea of creation of Pakistan is based on wrong interpretation of Islam. Puncture their arguments on J&K on this very basis of the creation of Pakistan. If Islam represented by IMs questions openly about the motives and purpose of Pakistan creation it is difficult for Pakistan to argue against muslims of sub-continent.

I was told some wierd fear that Pakistanis will use this argument to re-emerge with India. This is a totally absurd idea. RAPES will not let that happen for vested interests. They can sell their own islamic brothers so easily to hold on to power then why would they willingly dilute their power by reuniting with India? The idea of giving up land won by Islam goes against the fundamental basics of Islamism that Pakistan represents. Besides 3.5 friends have vested interests in such a case not happening.

I mean seriously, there is a reason why Pakistanis call Hindus cowards. We are creating our own fears in our own mind and telling that to Pakistanis. Tomorrow if India decides to call Pakistani bluff and refuse to be deterred by Pakistani nukes in the event of terrorist attack, Pakistan will simply threaten that war with India will create a huge refugee problem for India. How many more years we will spend fearing to this new threat and accept more terrorist attacks and belligerence on the part of Pakistan?

[RajeshA]

Given the situation and the past experience it is prudent to not rely on a some random possibility as a matter of policy. India should up the ante with the help of Indian muslims by questioning the creation of Pakistan. Argue that the idea of creation of Pakistan is based on wrong interpretation of Islam. Puncture their arguments on J&K on this very basis of the creation of Pakistan. If Islam represented by IMs questions openly about the motives and purpose of Pakistan creation it is difficult for Pakistan to argue against muslims of sub-continent.

I find such a vector of attack on Pakistan's unity not without its merits.

I call it the KLPD attack.

Scenario: Let's say the Indian Muslims start an outreach program for the Pakistani Muslims. Two-Nation Theory is rubbished vehemently by them. They start telling the Pakistani Muslims that their salvation lies only when they reunite with India. Otherwise Talibarbarity would consume them. Governance in Pakistan has failed miserably, and what they need is the benign guidance of the Indian State to put a stop to state failure. Let the Indian Muslims bombard them with propaganda that they have become a piece of shittt and a reunification with India is their only salvation. Let the Indian Muslims take the steering on this. Rest of India sits back and watches.

No Akhand Bharat talk during this time. In fact, I would say we should outsource our whole interaction with Pakistan to the Indian Muslims. The non-Muslim Indians should simply stop having any contact with Pakistanis, so much so that Pakistanis forget there are Hindus in India. We take ourselves out of the equation in the beginning. It should be like - Ah You Pakistani wants to talk to me, here talk to my Indian Muslim Friend. Even in the GoI, non-Muslim Indians stop making any comments about Pakistan. For us, Pakistan should stop to exist.

The Indian Ulema also starts talking with some Barelvis and Shias, and start explaining to them that if they come together, in one country, they could together become strong enough to influence the destiny of India. A lot shadayantra stuff.

So in Pakistan a large section of society buys into the sales-pitch and also starts supporting the idea of reunification with India. Of course, the Army would not support this idea, but within the Media, the Society, the Business Community, this can have a snowball effect, and the Army would seem not to get a grip on such talk. One can get the Society really hot on this issue.

If everybody in Pakistan starts saying that reunification with India is the way to go, it automatically weakens the position of the Army. In fact the Army comes across as the force which is going against the will of the people, and robbing mango abduls of their money while doing it.

When the pitch has really gone up, there will be an ideological tussle within Pakistan as to which way it should go. The bigger the tussle the more the fabric of Pakistan gets shredded. The Reunificationists become the revisionist force while the Two-Nation-Theory-Adherents (TNTA) become the status-quoists. Ideologically it is far more difficult for status-quoists to hold their ground, if the revisionists have sufficient momentum and horsepower.

Once Pakistan starts falling apart on this score, for example, if the Sindhis or Baluchis or Seraikis, or Barelvis, or Shias or Ahmedis are much more inclined towards Reunification, there will be an effort by the others to stick together and also be pulled to some extent in this direction. The fundamentals of Pakistan would have weakened by then. If the Pakistani hardliners resist, it can even come to war on this score.

When the Pakistanis openly start telling Indians they want to be part of India, only then should the non-Muslim Indians open their eyes and ask, "Whaaaat?". Then we can cherry pick, in what form and way, each part of Pakistan should be associated with India. While doing that, we take Pakistan apart.

On the other hand, if it becomes a war-like situation, India can interject there also and support the reunificationists militarily.

Now the question, can it work? Well if India is willing to invest a few billion dollars in sophisticated propaganda and cultivation of support groups in India and Pakistan, it could be possible.

The main thing is we let the Indian Muslims do the driving. We have to build up certain Indian nationalist Muslims and use their services for this cause.

The state failure in Pakistan is palpable. Pakistanis need to be given some new dreams of salvation.

It is called KLPD, because not everybody in Pakistan would be allowed in. Some areas would be allowed in, but that too to sign the death certificate of Pakistan.

Just some wild thoughts

[ramana]

N.V. Subramanian writes:

Zardari vs Army

Looks like some kind of soft coup is underway.

Zardari vs army
More and not less democracy is the solution to Pakistan's existential crisis, says N.V.Subramanian.

1 October 2010: The Ayodhya judgment (overdue but welcome) has predictably displaced from the headlines a significant comment made by the former Pakistani dictator, Parvez Musharraf, in a UK debate. Musharraf said that Pakistan risks another military coup. The trigger for this was provided by a meeting with Pakistan's president Asif Ali Zardari and prime minister Yousaf Raza Gilani that the country's army chief, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, had forced. In the meeting which was front-paged by Pakistani newspapers, Kayani demanded the sacking of some corrupt ministers and to resurrect the sinking economy and crashed governance.

It is not certain that Musharraf's prediction will come true although it is reasonable to believe that he is still close to the Pakistani military and hopes for its support for reviving his political career. It is possible that at the behest of the Pakistani military, Musharraf is giving advance warning to the West to put pressure on Zardari to reform his ways and to make his government deliver if it wants to avert another coup in Pakistan. It may also not be extreme to posit that the Pakistan army wants Zardari out without resorting to a coup and is using Musharraf as a lever for it in the West.

But the equally undeniable fact is that Zardari has proved a survivor beyond all calculations. When the pressure mounted on him to strip his presidency of powers to dissolve parliament, sack the prime minister, and appoint service chiefs, he was expected to fold and even to become PM and appoint a family puppet in his position. He was also being written off when facing fresh onslaughts on his corruption and foreign wealth. But Zardari has survived everything and proved his doomsayers wrong.

Why Zardari has survived whereas other politicians previously have succumbed mainly to military pressure would be the subject of another analysis. But it is clear that Zardari is confident that the military won't depose him, and from what is known of Kayani, he appears not too eager to take over ruling the country. Whatever the enthusiasm of military takeover now, it will evaporate when the generals make a mess of governance as they have in the past and turn out as corrupt and arrogant as the politicians they have replaced. Kayani's successor may not think similarly but Kayani has got himself a three-year extension so a Pakistani coup looks currently remote.

But that is not to say Pakistan is in a happy state. Far from it. It is possible to argue that the PPP government has destroyed Pakistan's political economy but that would be giving the politicians to much credit in a country that has been for more years misruled by the army. The core problem is that Pakistan has lost the instincts of a sovereign state, in that it has no longer the means, sinews and vision to independently exist. Without US aid, Pakistan will hurtle faster towards state failure than now. Its military will be unable to keep the country together by force. The Balkanization that Pakistan strives to visit on India will seize and unravel it. Indeed, Pakistan's state failure may be irreversible now.

Musharraf in his UK debate argues for giving the Pakistan military a constitutional role in the country's politics. Beyond keeping Musharraf in the good books of the military, it won't resolve Pakistan's existential problems. Pakistan today faces a trust- and image-deficit worldwide. In its worst floods in recent history, it does not find the world forthcoming with aid. On the military side, the US and NATO forces have been saturating North Waziristan these past weeks with missile attacks and sent gunships in hot pursuit of terrorists fleeing to Pakistan from Afghanistan. Levels of US-NATO counter-terrorism violence are increasing even as Pakistan flounders to get a measure of control over its destiny. Musharraf's formula of formally bringing the military into Pakistan's politics won't assist at all.

The only way to save Pakistan is if it makes unconditional peace with India and the rest of South Asia. Pakistan will have to forget Kashmir, concentrate to make its democracy credible, and push the state to full functionality. It will have to renounce its terror state policy against India, shred its strategic-depth ambitions in Afghanistan, and permit the prosecution of a full no-holds-barred war against the Al-Qaeda/ Taliban/ Haqqani faction leaderships in FATA and Quetta. Unless Pakistan reinvents itself, it is rushing headlong into terminal decline. And contrary to Musharraf's argument, Pakistan's salvation lies in less military, more politics, and an excess of democracy.

Truly Bhasmasura syndrome.

[RajeshA]

N.V. Subramanian writes:
Zardari vs Army

Looks like some kind of soft coup is underway.

Zardari vs army
<snip>
The only way to save Pakistan is if it makes unconditional peace with India and the rest of South Asia. Pakistan will have to forget Kashmir,[/b]

Truly Bhasmasura syndrome.

No unconditional peace. Pakistan has to return PoK to India and pay damages for Kargil and all the terrorist acts on India.

[Pulikeshi]

^^ Who is going to play Mohini ?

The only way to save Pakistan is if it makes unconditional peace with India and the rest of South Asia. Pakistan will have to forget Kashmir, concentrate to make its democracy credible, and push the state to full functionality. It will have to renounce its terror state policy against India, shred its strategic-depth ambitions in Afghanistan, and permit the prosecution of a full no-holds-barred war against the Al-Qaeda/ Taliban/ Haqqani faction leaderships in FATA and Quetta. Unless Pakistan reinvents itself, it is rushing headlong into terminal decline. And contrary to Musharraf's argument, Pakistan's salvation lies in less military, more politics, and an excess of democracy.

In other words Pakistan needs to be lobotomized - the answer is more military more mullah-jihadi
Aurangzeb's ghost is back with a vengeance and the pakifool no guess what up!

[RajeshA]

N.V. Subramanian writes:
Zardari vs Army
Looks like some kind of soft coup is underway.

For a coup to take place, either the Army must be mighty unhappy with its share of the booty and influence, or USA must be mighty pissed off with the current regime.

I am not sure if the Army is really that pissed off. More or less they are getting whatever they want.

Could it be that PRC is demanding that the Army get rid of the current regime, to create tensions between Pakistan and USA?!

[ramana]

I said soft coup. The Army will not take over overtly. it wiall be another more to their liking. Zardaris was chosen as the widower of daughter of yeast who wanted to rise againlike Phoenix. She got sun roof lever treatment by TSPA. That was a coup too. However there was fear that PPP/Sindhi aspirations needed to be placated to keep them together. And they thought Z is anyway half a Baloch so is a unity figure who is a nikamma onlee. And anyway he is stopgap tilll Bilal grows up. Z has proved them wrong.

Something tells them timing is right. So expect regime change via soft coup.

--
Onlee virtual Mohini: Kashmir.

[Prem]

May be they bring back one of the Mohajir Mamas from London? Both of them have already appealed to Poakarmy and sung Kiyani's sehra . If Uncle gets burned by PA on PRC's egging then they will make sure Sindh and Baloch are alos set on fire. Look like no easy way out for Poakarmy so they will onlee go in deep as any stake holder will do .