Managing Pakistan's failure

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JwalaMukhi
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby JwalaMukhi » 12 Sep 2010 19:08

RajeshA wrote:
All of this support for whatever reason has hurt India, and needs not be ignored. America has been opportunistic at the cost to India, but the general view is, that it has not been with a malevolent design and intent on India. India's existence and democracy is not exacting any costs on America, and is not against America's strategic interests.

It obviously makes sense either malevolently or benevolently to opportunistically screw India. The results are same. A quick glance at the data suggest in the chart below, shows who is paying the heavy price. The UKstani school is all about zero sum game. The school of thought indulges in two things:
1) Try to take advantage of and exploit the situation.
2) If they cannot be winners, they will destroy the object itself, so no one else can benefit.
If POK goes to hell, no thieves would worry about it, except some sentimental and pontificating SDREs worried about it being not correct. It the case of solomon's child scenario.
The west would like to convert the game to zero sum, because it is only game in which they are experts, else they would destroy the game itself.
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7lUfSGhnyP4/T ... 790240.gif

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 12 Sep 2010 19:16

NikhilB wrote:Please don't get me wrong. I am no RAPE and know ground realties of Pakistan. However, if US and China are hell bent on keeping Pakistan alive and stable, why not use it for our benefit ! Time to think something out of the box, and not to leave this option as well.


NikhilB ji,
RAPE means Rich Anglophone Pakistani Elite! An Indian would not claim not being that. Such a claim is reserved for Pakistanis.

An Indian could claim that he is no RNI (Resident Non-Indian) or he is no DIE (Deracinated Indian Elite) or he is no WKK (Wagah Kandle Kisser).

An Indian should claim the right not-being-something! :wink:

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 12 Sep 2010 19:24

JwalaMukhi ji,

Ever since America became an economic powerhouse, India has not really been a big economic power. There were others with a bigger economic share, who should have been the target of American malevolence, according to above logic.

American malevolence or benevolence towards India has to be seen from the geopolitical viewpoint in the given time-frame.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 12 Sep 2010 19:30

NikhilB wrote: if US and China are hell bent on keeping Pakistan alive and stable, why not use it for our benefit ! Time to think something out of the box, and not to leave this option as well.


absolutely...

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby NikhilB » 12 Sep 2010 19:38

RajeshA wrote:NikhilB ji,
RAPE means Rich Anglophone Pakistani Elite! An Indian would not claim not being that. Such a claim is reserved for Pakistanis.
An Indian should claim the right not-being-something! :wink:


:oops: Tried searching in BRF acronyms but was difficult to find; not being in alphabetical order:-) I meant WKK.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 12 Sep 2010 19:45

Kanson wrote:
RajeshA wrote:here is no competition between US and China to be expected in Pakistan.

PRC understands that USA has been paying its whore and supporting her lifestyle, and frankly it doesn't mind, because the whore likes to buy too many shoes, and PRC cannot buy her all that; PRC is still not rich enough. PRC also knows that USA would someday move on, but hopes that it would be when PRC has a good job and enough change to buy her services. PRC knows, that should USA move on before PRC is ready to buy her services and support her lifestyle, the whore might simply go and marry the bania next door, and then it is curtains for PRC.


We may not know that for sure. When Pak is playing China against US, why not we should believe there is no competition, when thier interest crosses. Case in point is Gwadar. There are some reports & indications. We always believe that US is so amenable to Pak to play Pak as kind of counter weight in hurting India or so such things. Why not it should not be seen as gaining strategic space against China in Pak ( i know floating this idea is equivalent to floating on thin ice)? Have we explored this route?


I should have been more precise: There is no competition between the US and China in Pakistan, that hurts the Chinese.

All competition as projected by the Pakis, is to get more dollars out of American tax-payer's pocket. Till date, Americans have not made a single dent to overall Chinese strategic aims in Pakistan. In fact, TSPA has taken dollars and gone ahead and bought Chinese weapons, again profiting the Chinese.

Americans may say, they want to compete with the Hans in Pakistan. Pakistanis may claim there to be competition, but both Pakistanis and Chinese are laughing all the way holding hands on the KKH. At the most, Americans are getting some immediate relief here and there, some nominal service by the Pakis, but that still doesn't give America any advantage over the Hans.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 12 Sep 2010 20:25

shiv wrote:
Kanson wrote:
"China is loved"

After lal masjid incident involving chinese --- workers; action of stick wielding sisters on them; resentment of Pak taliban towards this incident; south dive of relations between Pak talibans like Asian tigers with the ISI & Pak Army gives a different picture. We must pursue to see what is there beneath. Being press is controllable by state and given the China's sensitivities, any news about China in bad light might not be published. Atleast not in english media.


This is in fact why Chinese settlements in Pakistan should be fun. Why should we stop the Chinese in POK?


There are two groups, that either hate the Chinese or potentially hate the Chinese, even if the hate is way down the ladder, after hate for Pakjabis, Americans and Hindus! The Baluchis hate Chinese, and the Pakiban hate Chinese.

Should one day the Chinese really give the TSPA the go-ahead, TSPA would be willing to exterminate the Baluchis, without any hesitation. Many Pakjabis have been killed in Baluchistan by the Baluchis. The Pakjabis can always claim, that it was for retaliation. In fact in the whole Muslim world, not a single soul would cry for the Baluchis, except may be the Kurds. Only the West would complain, but mostly all will think, Islam is barbaric onlee, so big deal, and whatever sanctions US/EU impose, the Chinese would torpedo them. The TSPA would then have cleared Baluchistan for Pakjabi military and the Chinese.

Both the Chinese and the TSPA would however be wary of the Pakiban, so the Chinese would try their best to keep their footprint in those badlands as small as possible. That is the reason, the Chinese have not opened the Wakhan Corridor. One would hardly see any Chinese working on any projects in the Pushtun areas, except may be some hydro-electrical projects.

The major Chinese settlement would be in Gwadar, where their number could go up as much as 3-4 million, making it in fact a Chinese enclave. The other settlements would be in Gilgit-Baltistan, where the PLA would be in such numbers, that it would be laughable to consider them vulnerable. Mostly the people in Gilgit-Baltistan are Shia, well at least those who lived there originally. The Sunnis in Pakistan would hardly consider a Chinese presence there, a foreign occupation of Sunni Ummah Land. Even if they do, the TSPA would very easily be able to calm them down, as it is all onlee for the subjugation of the Hindus.

Between Gilgit-Baltistan and Gwadar, the Chinese would let TSPA provide the security to the Chinese involved in any trade or transport. Other than that no Chinese settlements in Pakistan are to be expected.

The Americans sit on Pushtun lands in Afghanistan and rain down Hellfire in tribal areas. Of course, they would be hated. From podiums the Americans declare that Taliban are evil and should be fought. Of course, they would be hated. Would any Chinese be stupid enough to get involved in that hornet's nest of Pushtuns?! In fact, the Chinese would try to avoid the Pushtuns as much as possible.

From the Lal-Masjid drama, the Chinese have learned. They will not be pushing for Chinatowns in Lahore and elsewhere anymore. They will dissuade other Chinese from putting up massage parlors in Islamabad and elsewhere. All that is not needed. In fact, the Pakistanis may not even know that there are Chinese on Pakistani territory.

I don't see any similar backlash to the Chinese, as could take place against Americans in Pakistan. These are two different birds, with different feathers and colors, and they walk differently.

Letting in the Chinese through PoK and then hoping against hope for Pakistani anger to build up against the Chinese presence in Pakistan could turn out to be more like cutting off our nose to spite our face. The fun may never come.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 12 Sep 2010 20:38

NikhilB wrote:Can we think something completely lateral - may seem like impossible at this time. How about getting Pakistan in Indian camp ? I know this is hilarious. I myself know how deep is hatred in Pakistanis minds towards India, and how they would not settle with any peace with India, esp with TSPA and ISI at helm of affairs.

But if we have to think strategically, if we think we are going to clash with China sometime later in future (not strictly in military terms or wars but rather in geopolitics and economics) then wouldn't it be better to have Pakistanis on our side - on ground level, it's not that difficult with commonalities in culture in both countries. Problem is with TAFTA minds & TSPA.

Please don't get me wrong. I am no WKK and know ground realties of Pakistan. However, if US and China are hell bent on keeping Pakistan alive and stable, why not use it for our benefit ! Time to think something out of the box, and not to leave this option as well.


In fact in that unofficial press meet, MMS let slip in, that because of the Chinese pressure, he wants to make peace with the Pakistan. And it ain't working! If the Chinese and the Muslim Chauvinists in Pakistan would give MMS a breather for a few years, perhaps it could work, but that breather ain't coming, so it is simply impossible. The danger is that if go too far out on a leg, we would be putting all our eggs in one basket, itself made up egg-shell, and we may miss out on the other means of solving the issue, while there is still some window of opportunity.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby svinayak » 12 Sep 2010 21:42

RajeshA wrote:

This cannot be ignored anymore. A large population which is not Christian is an enigma for US and Americans. The historical capital held by India and it large influence in Asia is considered as a competitor and roadblock to full global domination by US elite.

That is yesterday's war. It is like the Pakistanis doting over various Ghazwas. The Christians have bigger things to fear.

Geo politics is still there and will continue no matter what war is going on in the current period.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby svinayak » 12 Sep 2010 21:45

RajeshA wrote: here is no competition between US and China to be expected in Pakistan.

PRC understands that USA has been paying its whore and supporting her lifestyle, and frankly it doesn't mind, because the whore likes to buy too many shoes, and PRC cannot buy her all that; PRC is still not rich enough. PRC also knows that USA would someday move on, but hopes that it would be when PRC has a good job and enough change to buy her services. PRC knows, that should USA move on before PRC is ready to buy her services and support her lifestyle, the whore might simply go and marry the bania next door, and then it is curtains for PRC.


I should have been more precise: There is no competition between the US and China in Pakistan, that hurts the Chinese.

All competition as projected by the Pakis, is to get more dollars out of American tax-payer's pocket.

This is very important. There is common interest among all players. No more no less.
If others do not take care of their interest it does not matter to these players.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby JwalaMukhi » 12 Sep 2010 22:55

RajeshA wrote:JwalaMukhi ji,

Ever since America became an economic powerhouse, India has not really been a big economic power. There were others with a bigger economic share, who should have been the target of American malevolence, according to above logic.

American malevolence or benevolence towards India has to be seen from the geopolitical viewpoint in the given time-frame.

Rajesh ji,
Agreed. However, it is pertinent to see India's prosperity has been outsourced, while at the same time has massively imported poverty. If India 's PPP increases, someone else has to have lesser share. It is also easy to see where and how the loss and gain dynamic played out. It is lot easier to keep an impoverished potential in that stage than cross swords with others who have bigger economic share. Pak/pok is easiest, cheapest and guaranteed option to pin the impoverished potential (India) in that equilibrium, than possible other options.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 12 Sep 2010 23:25

Johann wrote:Rajesh A,

I'd largely agree.

- The threat from the Pakiban (specifically their violence, not their social policing) has kept the most of the Pakjabi public, and even large segments of the Pushtun public close to the PA despite its failures, and its overall responsibility for nurturing the violent movement. The PA seems to be enjoying good press even from the floods while letting the civil powers take the blame for failures.

I have however noticed some strong animosity between the Pakjabis and the Pushtuns. With Afghanistan still embroiled in war, and with Americans drone-bombing the tribals most of the Pushtuns are still concentrating their fight and hate towards the Americans.

However when the curtains come down, and the Pushtuns are not dependent on TSPA goodwill for money, arms and safe haven, then the Pushtun would come down on the Pakjabis and take their due. There would always be Pushtun who would be disgusted by the ferocity and barbarity of the Taliban, and may tend to lean towards TSPA, but TSPA is not really inclined to give protection to the civilians, so even there their will be disillusion.

The Taliban is actually a TSPA beast, but in the last 16 odd years of its existence, it too has learned the ways of the world and the politics of the high and mighty. Once the Afghan Taliban breaks out of the Pakjabi TSPA's leash, IMHO, there is going to be a consolidation of the Pushtuns - and the Taliban would move to build their identity more on Pushtun Nationalism and less on Islamic purity. They too have learned how skin deep all the Ummah and Brotherhood balderdash is. In that case even the ANP people would be taken on board. The Durand Line is not going to last very long.

Should the Chinese promote themselves to Pakistan's masters, they too would be advising Pakistan to get rid of the Pushtun shackles. The Khyber Pass may not be that important for the Chinese.

Johann wrote:- The Sindhi establishment in the form of powerful families like the Bhuttos/Zardaris, as well as its professional and middle classes have not broken with the idea of Pakistan yet, rather they want a larger share of power and the benefits of power.


That is exactly the kind of people PRC is looking for - people who can use strong arm tactics and suppress all dissension - single families who can rule with an iron rod and provide services to the Chinese - of security, transport, logistics.

Johann wrote:- China's growing involvement in Pakistan's economy and its plans to turn it in to a Freightlinistan/Pipelineistan should not be assumed to include a complete commitment to preserving Pakistan's integrity or Islamabad's direct control. If the PA and Pakistani elite fall down on the job, the PRC will hedge its bets by making friends with powerful groups, both ethnic and religious. If the PA can not crush the Baluchis, the Chinese will do their best to buy their support and partnership - support for autonomy, restrictions on Pakjabi/Sindhi/Pashtun settlement, etc plus of course lots of money.


The Baluchis will be crushed. The Chinese would see them as unnecessary, just like Tibetans, who hold vast swaths of land, are moderate, and have no friends in the world willing to take up arms in their favor. The Baluchis also have had a long flirting with Russians, Indians and Americans and will always be looked at with suspicion. It would give other powers too much of leeway to trouble the Chinese so far away from mainland China. Of course, the Chinese would not be making their hands dirty; the Pakjabi TSPA would be doing that, but TSPA will get ample support from the Chinese. Also when you want to build pipelines through their territory carrying Oil and Gas from the Gulf and especially Iran all the way to Tibet through PoK, one doesn't want irksome Baluchis running around and blowing those pipelines. We all know what happened in Darfur. There can be a repeat of that in Baluchistan also. Even TSPA need not do the butchering by themselves, they can have Tanzeems doing their dirty work. Regimes like CPC and TSPA consider deniability a great asset.

The Pushtuns too would be kept at arm's length, as long as they are in uprising. Once they have their Pushtunistan, China may offer them some support to keep them away from Uighurs, and not to make too much trouble for their regime in Rawalpindi. Gilgit-Baltistan would be PLA territory. Gwadar will be a Chinese outpost. Pakjab, Sindh and a de-Baluchized Baluchistan would form the core of Pakistan under TSPA.

Johann wrote:There are important questions however;

- If it is up to the Pakistanis, Sindh and Pakjab are likely to remain places where the economy is overwhelmingly dominated by agriculture. Issues of water management, land management, rural health and education, the global commodities market, internal rural-urban migration, climate change, access to capital etc will all have an enormous impact on the social and economic fate of Sindh and Pakjab. Will the elite continue to control the countryside and make real money off of it through things like textiles? Or will it become an enormous drag, unable to feed itself?


One thing the Chinese can do, is enormous engineering projects, put up factories and supply-chain. Where ever possible the Chinese could help the Pakistanis to keep Pakistan from collapsing. One class that may not survive long, would be the Pakistani middle-class, or the unnecessary civilian governments. PRC has some experience in Myanmar, where the junta can deal with PRC, and any middle-class only makes it difficult to rule with the iron hand. The rest of society needs to be kept at a low (or lowest) level of equilibrium. This much a Chinese supported regime would in fact be able to accomplish.

Johann wrote:- Is China likely to contribute towards Pakistan's industrialisation and economic modernisation? Could it make sense for them to invest in the PA and the Pakistani elites for both agricultural and even certain kinds of industrial production given the low cost of labour and the lack of labour organisation, environmental controls, etc? The PRC has cultivated militaristic pariah regimes like North Korea, Pakistan and Burma for geopolitical reasons, but they offer economic potential as well, and one that goes beyond transit trade.


Yes the regimes need a broader context to survive, and get support from the population.

Johann wrote:- Will deep-seated economic involvement give the PRC greater incentive to reign in the PA? The PA's traditional approach breeds both internal and regional conflict that would threaten production, transportation and the general flow of trade.


If the consideration is transnational involvement of Pakistanis in conflict and terrorism, then China would at the maximum try to curb only support for Uighurs, but the Ghazwa Projects against India would not be curtailed. This is especially so the case, because China would want a broader corridor into Pakistan, which means the Kashmir Valley coming under the sway of TSPA. Even after that Pakistan would be used against India to keep India off balance. Any retaliation by India against Pakistan, would not be possible because of Pakistani and Chinese nuclear threat.

As far as terrorism against Western targets is concerned, that too would be carried out on a similar patterns as now. It will be similar to how North Korea is used to keep East Asia including American allies off balance. That would mean European and Western nations running off to Beijing, pleading with them to reign in the Tanzeems. Through TSPA, it could become possible for China to even get partial control over Global Jihad.

China is going for Asian and World Domination here like no other empire, even America has enjoyed earlier. They have big ambitions, and they have time on their side.

It could be a world order where the Hans control world markets and the geopolitics of the world, a world where the Hans will have the right to the first bite, and where the rest can go for the crumbs, an Asia where in each country a small elite minority would be co-opted and the rest suppressed, a world where no other country or continent would stand up against Chinese hegemony in Asia and unquestioned superpower status outside Asia. All the other developed countries outside Asia would be co-opted in the Chinese capitalist system, where slowly and steadily even there the economic difference would grow. In countries in Africa and even South America, the model would be the same as in Asia.

This is the world I expect (unless something about it is done now). Here I am just a bit brain-storming.

Since we are still in the beginning of this possible world order, it is difficult to fathom its extent. That is why it is important for India and for the world, that there exists at least a duopoly in Asia - China and India. If that equilibrium gets broken, then we will be looking at the world order mentioned above.

I think regaining PoK and establishing a military alliance of strong countries in Asia is a must.

Just some thoughts.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby brihaspati » 13 Sep 2010 04:02

A very simple fly in the ointment can burst all that PRc bubble. All the above can only be achieved if suddenly Islamism changes character completely. The only way to go forward in current ambitions is for the PRC to have the Islamists on its side. But Islamists have always, consistently, bitten the very hands that feeds them - after they have gained what they want from the feeders. So far Islamism did not have the dominance in CAR that they now enjoy - because first the Russian empire and then USSR kept them under a tight leash. Now thanks to USA and partly to China - these Islamists have had almost a generation to recover and gain in strength.

Look carefully - the entire CAR is being carefully lowered into chaos where regular civilizational processes will gradually be forced to retreat. In such situations its Islamist opportunism that will flourish. They will gradually convert the region into an Asiatic Somalia where Islamist warlords reign.

The more strength that CPC lends to these Islamists - the quicker will be their retreat from the zone. In fact they may need to put up such a degree of resources into shoring up that front that they may not be able to sustain even borders in contiguous regions.

People tend to overestimate the military prowess of the PLA. Their victories were almost always restricted to surprise or deceptive attacks - even from their 8th Route Army days. There have been only two formal wars with international forces that they have scored some success - in the Korean war they gorund to a stalemate at a huge huge manpower cost, and they occupied Indian territories by a deceptive and surprise attack on an unprepared and naive leaders megalomania about his own supreme capabilities to foresee foreign affairs. How many other wars have they really won? Tibet was a similar surprise attack in a protracted process of pretending to negotiate while pushing military units.

Without deception the PLA is nothing. This is for the enjoyment of all Chinese lurkers!

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby surinder » 13 Sep 2010 04:35

One can notice one peculiar thing in world history: The best time for re-arrengment in borders is when the geopolitical system is undergoing tectonic shifts; not when the system has solidified to its equilibrium.

Such a window of opportunity is fast approaching for India. The Western (read Khan) system is withdrawing and a new system (PRC) is taking over. This valley of opportunity should be exploited to re-write borders and relationships. When the change is over, and PRC dominance enters the equilibrium state, then changes are hard to implement.

The Golden opportunity is already upon us, it will not be a window that will stay open for a short period of time till Pax-Sinica will be fully established. Then it would be another long wait.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 13 Sep 2010 04:43

brihaspati garu,

that is the reason, PLA does not want to go through the CARs to reach West Asia, but would rather go through Pakjab and Gulf.

Should China pursue a strategy of pursuing its geo-strategic interests through CARs, first of all the Russian Bear would awaken. Russia is willing to allow China into the CARs in an economic capacity as well as security support to contain drug trafficking and Islamic Extremism. It would however not be willing to allow China to go ahead on its own to secure strategic gains. If China does it without involving Russia, then China risks sending Russia into the arms of USA, which could affect Chinese rise negatively.

Secondly is the issue of Islamic Extremism. China would try as much as possible to minimize its footprint in Islamic countries. The PoK and Pakjab route is its favored route simply because there it has an Muslim regime willing to do its bidding.

PoK allows China to reach the Gulf without ever having to risk coming into contact with Islamic Extremism directly. That is the why India should not allow China that luxury.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 13 Sep 2010 04:57

surinder wrote:The Golden opportunity is already upon us, it will not be a window that will stay open for a short period of time till Pax-Sinica will be fully established. Then it would be another long wait.


surinder ji,

Yoda: The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.

Having said that, I think the world still has a chance to avoid Pax-Sinica Maximus. That depends on whether China can make a dash from its containment in East Asia or not.

Nothing has ever been more clearer to me, that PoK holds the key to a world at peace or a Pax-Sinica. If India falls, China will boil the world on low heat, bit by bit. Après l'Inde le déluge!

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby svinayak » 13 Sep 2010 04:58

surinder wrote:One can notice one peculiar thing in world history: The best time for re-arrengment in borders is when the geopolitical system is undergoing tectonic shifts; not when the system has solidified to its equilibrium.

It is always like that. During the WWII between 1945-1950 major countries were occupied and new countries were formed.

Similar in 1975-1979.
Even current times from 2005-2010 is very important.

Such a window of opportunity is fast approaching for India. The Western (read Khan) system is withdrawing and a new system (PRC) is taking over. This valley of opportunity should be exploited to re-write borders and relationships. When the change is over, and PRC dominance enters the equilibrium state, then changes are hard to implement.

The Golden opportunity is already upon us, it will not be a window that will stay open for a short period of time till Pax-Sinica will be fully established. Then it would be another long wait.

The west is trying to show that it is withdrawing but it is creating a proxy to do its job.
It has tried very hard to create a proxy trying all its efforts.

India went thru revolution in those period. Now the current times the outside powers with EJ and homegrown EJ are trying to take over the country.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Johann » 13 Sep 2010 06:25

- China and Russia have so far done a good job of co-ordinating their interests in Central Asia through the SCO, which along with the Soviet-era CAR leadership all agree that "Separatism, Extremism & Terrorism" is the main enemy - i.e. jihad in all its different flavours. Although Russia and China do compete over whose networks oil and gas will flow (the Russians want to export it to the EU, the Chinese want it for domestic consumption) this has not gotten in the way at all, nor has the issue of what to do about Pakistan and their friends in the Quetta Shura faction of the Taliban. That is perhaps because although they differ on Pakistan and Afghanistan, they can both agree that they dont want the jihad bug getting any further, and they don't want the Americans hanging around the area. Both Russia and China have a strong interest in developing Trans-Eurasian transport that will move people and goods in game-changing volumes from the Pacific to markets in the EU and Turkey. What we are talking about is in effect is the serious effort to build a new Silk-Road. Both China and Pakistan would like Pakistan to be the new silk road's western channel to the IOR.

- If Pakistan does really become the Chinese Pipelinistan-Freightlinistan, the texture of Chinese economic involvement in the Pakistani political economy will look more like the US investment and influence in places like Central America (Panama!) and Cuba (which of course helped produce Castro) than the American Cold War involvement in Pakistan. This is despite the fact that Pakistan is far more socially complex, violent and unstable than Latin America ever was. The Chinese are the ones taking huge bets on mining in Afghanistan, although I've heard rumours that they're reconsidering.

While the scale of their appetite for risk is impressive, is it sustainable? At some level they're betting on an *efficient*, co-operative dictatorship in Pakistan, something that has never lasted for more than 5-6 years at a time before the next cycle of paralysing upheaval. In terms of international political-economy I'm not sure Pakistan can serve as much more than an expensive hedge bet against encirclement and strangulation - Myanmar is likely to do much better for the PRC.

- My medium term assessment (which has remained essentially unchanged for almost five years now) is that Pakistan is heading for a PA-organised anti-American "Islamic revolution" - not of the Pakiban's nihilistic, takfiri Global Jihad variety which is busy alienating most Pakistanis, and would happily behead Chinese engineers and "masseusses". I think we are going to see the emergence of a new Islamist party (or even parties; an Islamist economic left and an Islamist economic right) somewhere between the JI and PML-N that will capture the spirit of Islamic Nationalism that the PA sells, and that has been bought by the majority of Pakistan's population. I don't think it's imminent, because the Chinese economical infrastructure that must be capable of replacing the revenue from American aid is *at least* a decade away from being operationalised. Plus it will take time to lay the internal political infrastructure. The only thing that might speed up the process is American disengagement, which seems unlikely given how few choices they have in dealing with the threat from Global Jihad.

Like the Pakiban, the floods may counter-intuitively politically strengthen the PA rather than weaken it. The floods may finally offer the PA the chance to create a political movement that attacks the powerful land-owning feudal families like the Bhuttos and the Sharifs that have been the PA's greatest domestic political challenge.

See Syed Saleem Shahzad's recent article; http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/LI09Df02.html

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2010 07:13

One problem about Chinese workers in Pakistan. They eat pork. They are not respectful enough of South Asian cultural and religious customs that have been established by a millennium of glorious rule over India. :P

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2010 08:18

Johann wrote:- My medium term assessment (which has remained essentially unchanged for almost five years now) is that Pakistan is heading for a PA-organised anti-American "Islamic revolution" - not of the Pakiban's nihilistic, takfiri Global Jihad variety which is busy alienating most Pakistanis, and would happily behead Chinese engineers and "masseusses". I think we are going to see the emergence of a new Islamist party (or even parties; an Islamist economic left and an Islamist economic right) somewhere between the JI and PML-N that will capture the spirit of Islamic Nationalism that the PA sells, and that has been bought by the majority of Pakistan's population.


Johann the success of this will depend on providing governance and development. Or else it will be the usual sham. In 10 years Pakistan will have 230 to 250 million people of whom 100 million would have been born post 9-11. The Pakistani army will have a huge job fostering this kind of political set up with or without American and/or Chinese sponsorship.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2010 09:36

Kanti Bajpai has figured a way to collapse TSP. It the US continuing presence in Afghanistan could lead to that....


Exit is smarter strategy


THE TIMES OF INDIA
Exit Is A Smarter Strategy
KANTI BAJPAI, Sep 13, 2010, 12.00am IST

The Indian strategic community thinks that the US must stay in Afghanistan for as long as it takes to wear out the Taliban and ensure stability in that deeply troubled country. It would probably be better for the US to withdraw as quickly as possible and turn its attention to its internal problems, its role in East Asia, and much larger global challenges.

Ten years on, the US should consider pulling out of Afghanistan. While it cannot lose against the Taliban and al-Qaeda, it also cannot win outright. If so, Islamic extremism around the world will prosper. Extremists in Pakistan will celebrate the US quagmire in Afghanistan and the radicalisation of Pakistani opinion. The US's presence may be a bulwark against radicalisation, but it is an equal bet that the longer the US stays, the more radical Pakistan will become. When the US finally pulls out, as it must, Pakistan might collapse into civil war if not extremism. Better then for the US to go when the moderates still have a chance.

Taliban rule in Afghanistan may be more palatable this time round. Mullah Omar is likely to be far more circumspect about extremism and terrorism. The US must, of course, continue to monitor, disrupt, and destroy the workings of al-Qaeda and to bolster homeland defence. Washington can use its air power, particularly the drones, to target Afghan extremists and al-Qaeda if the Taliban continues to support terrorism. The threat of US intervention from the air might well deter the Taliban, which in its new incarnation seems keen to rebuild Afghanistan economically rather than reinstall a pitiless Islamic regime.

For the US, this is a more affordable, efficient way of combating terror than fighting in distant lands. A US pullout from Afghanistan will not be a strategic defeat. It may mark the high point of Islamic extremism which might well recede with the US's departure from Iraq and Afghanistan just as global communism peaked after the US's exit from Vietnam.

The problem with the present US course is that the workings of the US political and economic system, its role in East Asia and issues of the global commons are being neglected. The US political system is now in a logjam, fatally divided between right extremism and a moderate centrism. The economy is heavily in debt (due in part to the costly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan), is growing very slowly, and could be heading towards double-dip recession. No one in the US knows whether the country should spend its way out of trouble or curb the role of the state and stimulate market forces.

{He sees the malaise kicking in which I wrote about in last November.}

Washington has been obsessed with Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Iraq might yet turn out to be moderately stable and governable. The future of Afghanistan and Pakistan is much darker. Yet what is the worst that could happen a Taliban-led Afghanistan and a radical Pakistan? This could be a formidable combination, but just as likely is that Afghan/Pashtun nationalism and Pakistani/Punjabi nationalism will clash, leaving the two countries in unending contention rather than collusion. Nobody has mastered Afghanistan in the past, and the idea that Pakistan will do so in the years to come is a historical wager that the Pakistani army is likely to lose.

With so much invested in Afghanistan and Pakistan, the Americans are not paying enough attention to East Asia and the global commons. China is steadily on the rise. This is not altogether bad: a better balance of power is stabilising for the international system. But the key is balance. In Asia, the balance will be hard to preserve given China's enormous size and potential. The US could wake up very soon to find that Beijing is the hegemon of Asia. Before Washington reacts, the Chinese, who are driving deep into Africa, will also be ensconced in Latin America.

{Weaning the US from its PRC duality which I spoke last week!}

Finally, the US is ignoring the global commons. Global trade and finance, climate change, resource scarcities, and epidemics and disease jeopardise life on the planet far more insidiously and dangerously than Islamic terrorism. The US is the world's most indispensable power, to use Madeleine Albright's boast, in terms of global collective action. It must find its way back to these grand strategic challenges and not lose the woods for the trees.

A US pullout will not be a cataclysm for India. For one thing, the US will no longer be so helpless before Pakistan, and its military aid might reduce significantly. Further, New Delhi has dealt with Af-Pak before, from 1989 to 2001. It could team up with Iran, Russia and perhaps even Pakistan to play a positive role. Islamabad might cooperate to ensure New Delhi does not destabilise Afghanistan, exploit Afghan-Pakistan differences in the future (which are almost inevitable), and draw even closer to the US.


A rampant America, after the Cold War, was not always a progressive force, but at least it provided global leadership. Today, the world faces the possibility of an America riven politically, battered economically and shaken militarily, its forces rattled by the experience of asymmetric warfare. An unconfident America, with a waning sense of power and purpose, fighting an unwinnable war in Afghanistan, is not in India's or the world's interest.

The writer is professor of international politics, Jawaharlal Nehru University.


Quie a bit of thinking went into this article. But will US listen?

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby symontk » 13 Sep 2010 11:11

- If Pakistan does really become the Chinese Pipelinistan-Freightlinistan, the texture of Chinese economic involvement in the Pakistani political economy will look more like the US investment and influence in places like Central America (Panama!) and Cuba (which of course helped produce Castro) than the American Cold War involvement in Pakistan. This is despite the fact that Pakistan is far more socially complex, violent and unstable than Latin America ever was. The Chinese are the ones taking huge bets on mining in Afghanistan, although I've heard rumours that they're reconsidering.


Here I believe that earlier regime changes usually Armiy takeover in Pakistan were brought in by US and the difference now could be that Chinese are behind the Mushraff moves. Also read it together with Kargil, its always had been a favourite subject of Mushraff, and we have the Gilgit - Baltistan now

Even then its not sure how long Chinese can continue in Pakistan

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Johann » 13 Sep 2010 20:37

shiv wrote:
Johann wrote:- My medium term assessment (which has remained essentially unchanged for almost five years now) is that Pakistan is heading for a PA-organised anti-American "Islamic revolution" - not of the Pakiban's nihilistic, takfiri Global Jihad variety which is busy alienating most Pakistanis, and would happily behead Chinese engineers and "masseusses". I think we are going to see the emergence of a new Islamist party (or even parties; an Islamist economic left and an Islamist economic right) somewhere between the JI and PML-N that will capture the spirit of Islamic Nationalism that the PA sells, and that has been bought by the majority of Pakistan's population.


Johann the success of this will depend on providing governance and development. Or else it will be the usual sham. In 10 years Pakistan will have 230 to 250 million people of whom 100 million would have been born post 9-11. The Pakistani army will have a huge job fostering this kind of political set up with or without American and/or Chinese sponsorship.


Given Pakistan's record I expect it is going to be 'the usual sham'.

However, even it is a sham at the political level, the question is if the economic effects of Chinese investments will be enough to keep the sham going.

If Pakistan is integrated in to the Chinese economy, what will that mean? I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that governance can remain at an abysmally poor level while economic profit and productivity increases. Pakistan for example has managed to grow its textile exports through all sorts of volatility over several decades despite relatively small economic investments and incentives from outside. What happens if really significant investments are made in a number of areas?

The ordinary Pakistani may come to hate the Chinese, but that won't matter in the medium term as long as the PA is in charge. Beyond the medium term who can say anything? Vanishingly few geopolitical alliances last beyond that point.

I think we have to watch the development of the Chinese economy and its role in the international political economy carefully to understand what they are going to put in to Pakistan, and what its effects are likely to be.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 13 Sep 2010 20:58

Johann wrote: If Pakistan does really become the Chinese Pipelinistan-Freightlinistan, the texture of Chinese economic involvement in the Pakistani political economy will look more like the US investment and influence in places like Central America (Panama!) and Cuba (which of course helped produce Castro) than the American Cold War involvement in Pakistan. This is despite the fact that Pakistan is far more socially complex, violent and unstable than Latin America ever was. The Chinese are the ones taking huge bets on mining in Afghanistan, although I've heard rumours that they're reconsidering.

While the scale of their appetite for risk is impressive, is it sustainable? At some level they're betting on an *efficient*, co-operative dictatorship in Pakistan, something that has never lasted for more than 5-6 years at a time before the next cycle of paralysing upheaval. In terms of international political-economy I'm not sure Pakistan can serve as much more than an expensive hedge bet against encirclement and strangulation - Myanmar is likely to do much better for the PRC."]


I like that term - Chinese Pipelinistan-Freightlinistan!

For Pakistan to survive - what it needs is order and food.

If Chinese allow a certain separation of Pakistan from its Talibanic infection, perhaps by creation of a separate Pushtunistan, then the rest of Pakistan can indeed survive - Pakjab, Sindh, de-Baluchinized Baluchistan. Pakjab and Sindh would remain the granaries of Pakistan supplying sufficient food, and the Pakistani Army would provide the order. Most of the lashkars operating in Pakjab, which are not associated with Pushtuni Pakiban are basically under the thumb of ISI and can be controlled better or be put to use again against India.

If the people get enough food there will be no revolt. This food can of course be subsidized by China. The people can be kept poor and they get food doled out only if they behave. - a somewhat socialist system but sustainable. For pass-time and diversion, the hate in schools and madrassas against India can be kept high, so that Chinese do not get to feel any hate anyway. They in fact come as saviors of Pakistan who subsidize the food distribution system of Pakistan.

Parallel to such a society, there can be a middle-class, albeit small in Pakistan which only deals with providing the Chinese logistics any services needed. For this middle-class it would be suicidal to speak against the Chinese, because their jobs would be on the line.

I don't see, why a non-anti-China Pakistan colonized by China should not be possible.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pulikeshi » 13 Sep 2010 21:11

Are there any examples of the Chinese doing more than 'resource exploitation' type gigs?
My question is, can they manage 'controlled chaos' ethnic, religious and otherwise?
Any kilaadi in the sub-continent will need sophisticated finesse and cautious danda!

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Klaus » 13 Sep 2010 21:12

Assuming that TSP is a failing state, speaking from an economist's perspective it would take 59 years for turning around the failure, i.e. enough impetus given toward improvement that is noticeable enough to make it on the record books. So, we are already in the midst of those 59 years, given that TSP has been a failing state for much of the first decade of the 21st century.

As an Indian, I find it a very uncomfortable realization that desh will have to wait close to 50 years to know what we here on BRF have accepted as the gospel truth. For this same reason, TSP is better off as a nominal or a collapsed state. Frankly, any description of TSP which even gives the slightest indication that it can rebound is unacceptable.

For the same reason, a newcomer visiting the forum might think after seeing the title of this thread that we are devising methods to improve TSP, unless he/she takes the time to go through the thread content. Because, after all managing a failure is about trying to make it passable, I mean that is the commonly accepted connotation.

PS I know that this has been discussed extensively before, however requesting a name (and paradigm) change to "Managing Pakistan's nominality/Managing Pakistan's limbo".

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 13 Sep 2010 21:16

Pulikeshi wrote:Are there any examples of the Chinese doing more than 'resource exploitation' type gigs?
My question is, can they manage 'controlled chaos' ethnic, religious and otherwise?
Any kilaadi in the sub-continent will need sophisticated finesse and cautious danda!


Well the Chinese are past masters in controlling China itself, which has many ethnicities and religious groups within it. Many lessons they have learned there are applicable in other places as well. Even Myanmar has been controlled by China quite adroitly.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Klaus » 13 Sep 2010 21:23

RajeshA wrote:I don't see, why a non-anti-China Pakistan colonized by China should not be possible.


Sirji, dont you think you are giving the Chinese too much credit? AFAIK they do not have the finesse or the necessary sophistication to handle dissent or conflicting POV's. That skill-set has been eroded away from their brains courtesy of their oppressive government. Pakistan is no Uyghuristhan, there will be lynchings, abductions, executions aplenty.

Moreover, de-Baluchinizing Balochisthan does not look likely. The Balochi people already have a significant percentage of their land in Iranian possession, they are not going to bend over and let the Chinese expel them. It will take the better part of a decade to achieve anything noteworthy.

My guess is that, the Chinese will wimp out sooner rather than later. I dont expect them to learn Urdu/Balochi/Pashtu and make any attempts to even understand the sub-continents culture and mannerisms, like the Amirkhans have. For that matter, I do not see Kayani/Gilani learning Mandarin either.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 13 Sep 2010 21:24

Klaus wrote:Frankly, any description of TSP which even gives the slightest indication that it can rebound is unacceptable.


I wrote on another post

The only thing that can save the Pakjabi Army is PLA control of Gilgit-Baltistan (PoK). With PoK in Indian control there is nothing that can stop Pakistan's demise, and with PoK under Chinese control, there is nothing that can cause TSPA's collapse.

So if there is any truth to the above statement, it is in India's hand how the destiny of Pakistan pans out. Indians need to be aware of this decision, they must take.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2010 21:30

Johann wrote:However, even it is a sham at the political level, the question is if the economic effects of Chinese investments will be enough to keep the sham going.

If Pakistan is integrated in to the Chinese economy, what will that mean? I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that governance can remain at an abysmally poor level while economic profit and productivity increases. Pakistan for example has managed to grow its textile exports through all sorts of volatility over several decades despite relatively small economic investments and incentives from outside. What happens if really significant investments are made in a number of areas?

The ordinary Pakistani may come to hate the Chinese, but that won't matter in the medium term as long as the PA is in charge. Beyond the medium term who can say anything? Vanishingly few geopolitical alliances last beyond that point.

I think we have to watch the development of the Chinese economy and its role in the international political economy carefully to understand what they are going to put in to Pakistan, and what its effects are likely to be.


They can actually put all they like into Pakistan but what Pakistan actually will need is schools and education and land reforms. Anything less than that will be, IMO a repeat of what many countries in the West already attempted with Pakistan and failed. While Pakistan has continuously remained feudal and unequal the elite actually provided the atmosphere for investment for Westerners - who came in some numbers to reap what could be reaped. Apart from textiles, Pakistan actually became a cheap source of non traditional manufactured goods like surgical instruments.

But the "security situation" in Pakistan has been driven by the Islamists and the Islamists have been powered by the support from the army so that India can be held at bay. And the lot of the majority of Pakistanis, who serve as jihad fodder and agriculturists has not been changed. In theory China can make Pakistan a minor sub-manufacturing hub - using the technical resources available in Pakistan, but unless the profits are channelled into education, land reform healthcare and tertiary level infrastructure - the runaway increase in population and political upheaval is, IMO likely to continue. In China all this was handled with an iron fist, but socialism, womens rights and a one child policy paid dividends. The iron fist is the easy bit - but cutting Pakistan's birth rate is another matter altogether. And socialism means no dividends from profits. What is the sense in setting up industry if there are no profits in it for Pakistanis or Chinese? If there are handsome profits - then the proliferating masses will not benefit.

The other unknown quantities are Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan. Remote and under developed. How they might respond to Chinese industrial houses in Sindh and Pakjab remains to be seen. Pakistan is currently surviving in a state of near anarchy with power theft and water mismanagement. Neither of these is conducive to the setting up of industries to make a massive dent in the lives of tens of millions of Pakistanis unless Pakistanis suddenly become very democratic and very very concerned about fellow man.

One of the reasons why Pakistan made a fuss about Indians coming to Pakistan's aid during the floods was that the army and security forces would have to be diverted for providing security. The Pakistan army has generally provided security for the US, but where they fall short the US has put its own people, While I do not foresee largescale Chinese involvement in Pakistan until the US leaves, the Paki army will have to shift its focus to providing security for the Chinese. And the Chinese will surely bring in their own forces where Pakistanis fail, should they get involved in Pakistan.

The one big difference between China and the US is that the US has tried to intervene socially and politically in Pakistan in a futile effort to "make a better Pakistan". In the absence of such efforts Pakistan is likely to get worse. I have not seen any Chinese efforts at social intervention in Pakistan. In fact I have not seen any Chinese effort at social intervention anywhere other than forcing their own system. But without social intervention China is going to be adding 15% to its own population in terms of Pakistanis to be "managed". I see no signs that China is ready in this area. Taking over Hong Kong is one thing. Tibet too was sparsely populated. Pakistan is nothing like that.

Fially regarding ports - Karachi is a quasi independent state which will extract a price from any goods that anyone wants to ship via Karachi. I am not sure how much security will be required for Chinese imports and exports from Karachi, Gwadar is what th Chinese want - but that is a long road from POK. All in all I am not at all sure that the Chinese can have grandiose plans for Pakistan - but will wait and see. I could be proven wrong.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 13 Sep 2010 21:42

Klaus wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I don't see, why a non-anti-China Pakistan colonized by China should not be possible.


Sirji, dont you think you are giving the Chinese too much credit? AFAIK they do not have the finesse or the necessary sophistication to handle dissent or conflicting POV's. That skill-set has been eroded away from their brains courtesy of their oppressive government. Pakistan is no Uyghuristhan, there will be lynchings, abductions, executions aplenty.


Pakistan is no Uyghuristan. True. Pakistan is much more friendly towards the Han Chinese than the Uyghurs will ever be. Even the Jamaat-Islami leadership was invited to China to have a heart to heart talk.

Klaus wrote:Moreover, de-Baluchinizing Balochisthan does not look likely. The Balochi people already have a significant percentage of their land in Iranian possession, they are not going to bend over and let the Chinese expel them. It will take the better part of a decade to achieve anything noteworthy.


Iran in fact would not mind if Pakistani Army armed by the PLA goes about creating a genocide in Baluchistan. Iranians would in this case be comfortable with that. They suppress their Baluchis too.

One should note what happened in Darfur. China supports the Sudanese regime there which used Janjaweed to commit genocide on the more darker Muslims there. China has successfully blocked many UN Resolutions against the regime there.

There are several tanzeems the Pakistani Army could use similarly for this purpose.

So it is not all that impossible.

Klaus wrote:My guess is that, the Chinese will wimp out sooner rather than later. I dont expect them to learn Urdu/Balochi/Pashtu and make any attempts to even understand the sub-continents culture and mannerisms, like the Amirkhans have. For that matter, I do not see Kayani/Gilani learning Mandarin either.


The Chinese need not learn anything of that sort. They can however teach a whole army of Pakjabis Mandarin to work as their guides and translators. This would provide employment to many Pakistanis as well.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby ramana » 14 Sep 2010 01:36

One key indicator for the TSP failure is if the Corps commanders start asserting regional control over their areas. ( a la Sultanates)

I cant see this happening till US leaves the area.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Sanku » 14 Sep 2010 11:39

RajeshA, brilliant series of posts, I have as of now, completely bought into your idea. Yes the Chinese empire indeed has the potential to quite easily execute what you have outlined, having perfected the models of subservient states peopled by folks reduced to sub-human slave race category by controlling a minor local elite.

Pakistan is THE perfect place for the grandest execution of this concept, and yes, it is important that we Keep Pok (and parts of Pakjab) etc with us to secure ourselves.

As folks know I am no US fan boy, however clearly, in this case I see US as lesser of the two evils, by far.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 14 Sep 2010 12:24

Sanku wrote:RajeshA, brilliant series of posts, I have as of now, completely bought into your idea.


Thanks, Sanku ji.

Sanku wrote:Yes the Chinese empire indeed has the potential to quite easily execute what you have outlined, having perfected the models of subservient states peopled by folks reduced to sub-human slave race category by controlling a minor local elite.

Pakistan is THE perfect place for the grandest execution of this concept


That is a very good of putting it. Indians need to be made aware of the Pax-Sinica Project, and what it entails for India and the world. A new resolve needs to built-up amongst Indians, who like to take life as 'chalta hai', in order to confront the challenge of PRC!

Sanku wrote:and yes, it is important that we Keep Pok (and parts of Pakjab) etc with us to secure ourselves.

As folks know I am no US fan boy, however clearly, in this case I see US as lesser of the two evils, by far.


I am of this opinion also.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby SSridhar » 15 Sep 2010 18:41

ramana wrote:One key indicator for the TSP failure is if the Corps commanders start asserting regional control over their areas. ( a la Sultanates)


We have to closely monitor the Strategic Forces Command of TSP even before the Corps Commanders begin to react. Lt. Gen. Khalid Kidwai and his assistants.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pulikeshi » 15 Sep 2010 19:30

^ Perhaps you guys are on to something.

However, TSP has already failed, the question to ask is what will indicate imminent collapse?
TSP has intrinsically three forces - TSPA, Mullah-Jihadis and Ten% Politicians.
Of these three, collapse will not come because of TSPA, but in spite of their efforts to hold on
to whatever remains as a nominal state. The key weakness of TSP is none of these above
forces are focusing on the economic aspect and investing in human resources.
Perhaps they have all drunk the cool-aid of "Mughals don't work for a living"

This means that increasingly the Mullah-Jihadis are filling the gap in these areas
(especially after catastrophic events like the recent floods). The Ten%Politicians
has thus far avoided complete alignment with Mullah-Jihadis, but a time will come when
they cannot avoid alignment. I suspect that will signal the three forces being reduced to
just two: TSPA and the Mullah-Jihadi-Ten%Politicians complex.
From there on none of the AAA can save TSP from collapse.

Just my useless 2 paisa as usual...

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby rohitvats » 15 Sep 2010 20:09

ramana wrote:One key indicator for the TSP failure is if the Corps commanders start asserting regional control over their areas. ( a la Sultanates)

I cant see this happening till US leaves the area.


There is not enough real estate for this to happen. The most powerful Corps Commanders (of the total 9) and their respective formations are practically sitting over each others head in terms of geogprahical spread. Plus, geograhically, they are very close to GHQ. No Herat or Kandhar here. Exception - Sind and Karachi and Hyderabad. But again, main formations of V Corps (HQ Karachi) are closer to Lower Punjab.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2010 10:13

Pulikeshi, How is the Chandrasekhar limit coming along? Need to work the details.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pulikeshi » 16 Sep 2010 12:01

Ramana - Will be done with my final edits this weekend. Not sure of next step.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Lalmohan » 16 Sep 2010 12:09

what if the smaller ringwraiths (9 core commander/nazgul) do deals with the bigger ringwraiths? could we see maybe one or two ubernazgul coming to the fore? like the dostum model perhaps?


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