Managing Pakistan's failure

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shiv
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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2010 14:46

A_Gupta wrote:Returning to the point - WKKs are useless in reaching the non-indoctrinated Pakistanis. Instead they serve to propagate RAPE propaganda in India and elsewhere. Further, they provide alibis to the RAPE - "see, we have such good Indian friends, it must be RSS-BJP-ultranationalist-Hindu-type Indians who have a problem with us and that poison the atmosphere and the water".


No I don't mean the Kuldip Nayyar/Mahesh Bhatt types who make headlines being critical of India. There are others who are looking at peace and friendship for various reasons. Shah Rukh Khan is one such person. As an aside - Indian Muslims can be a huge asset in our hands. I know many who could serve this role better than the types you are talking about.

I have no doubt we can find the right people - but the problem is what to do with them. What role can they meaningfully play? I believe we actually come up against a brick wall here because one way would be trade and free trade would only enrich the India haters and help them pay future Kasabs. The other thing is "cultural exchanges" of schoolchildren. So these are ineffective or inappropriate means.

I would like to see TV propaganda being blasted into Pakistan - even to the extent of paying Paki channels to run subtle psy ops ads - eg a children's health drink ad with a whole lot of Paki kids and one "minority" kid all playing happily together. Small subliminal images that should get beamed into 100 million Paki brains set up by a dedicated bunch of pisko-psyops people.

An ad in Pakistan showing a Pakistani product (say paint or cement) appearing in different places of Pakistan and then spreading like a stain across India with people in Indian cities holding up a bag of that cement praising it. Needless to say ads can take liberties with the truth. An ad of a Paki group - say Junoon drawing raving audiences all over India. Ads designed to feed Paki ego but yet showing the need for India to be involved (in a non military conquest way) for feeding that ego.

An ad for a Paki hospital showing images of people from India - a sardar in Dilli, a brahmin in Tamil Nadu a bania in Gujrat all Kafirs making calls to fix an appointment for the world class facilities there. Indian thronging the Paki consulate for visas to visit a new mall in Karachi. All to be shown in Pakistan to pakis.

Doing this requires a little bit of out of box thinking and abundant chutzpah and the loss is only some TV ad revenue paid to Paki channels. If nothing else such ads will fuel paranoia. And if they don't it's win win for us. Appropriate WKKs could be used for saying how we are helping Pakistan improve trade and to help brotherly Kandle Kissing. The overall idea should be merely propaganda. Feed the ego. Pay some money and get a message across.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 06 Jul 2010 15:51

A_Gupta wrote:most WKKs interact only with RAPE and come back full of stories of how great RAPE are, just like us, except taller, fairer, etc., and with better goat meat.

.....

Returning to the point - WKKs are useless in reaching the non-indoctrinated Pakistanis. Instead they serve to propagate RAPE propaganda in India and elsewhere. Further, they provide alibis to the RAPE - "see, we have such good Indian friends, it must be RSS-BJP-ultranationalist-Hindu-type Indians who have a problem with us and that poison the atmosphere and the water".


I don't see RAPE as a lost cause.

As the economic differential between India and Pakistan widens still further, even the RAPE, the vice-ruling-class of Pakistan, would find it difficult to deny reality. If the WKKs do not interact, the RAPE would just spew hate at Indians and Hindus and do negative propaganda of India out of indoctrination or out of jealousy. The WKKs are useful in getting the RAPE to discuss across the table, and these discussions will be watched in those sections of the Pakistani populace, who are receptive of it, perhaps the folks who are already indoctrinated to hate India. Some Indian message would be getting through to them. The reality of India's dynamic economy and culture would seep in. It may not necessarily make them hate India any less, but their faith in Pakistan's destiny would be shaken. That too is positive.

Through all this RAPE-WKK contacts, the RAPE are being given a false comfort of belonging in some way or form to the Indian story and India. Pakistan is just a film studio, where an old Western movie is being filmed: only cardboard facades and painted wood. RAPE would themselves not want to remain associated with a sinking ship. At least abroad, many Pakistanis have started calling themselves Indians, and their restaurants are also called Indian restaurants. This distancing would percolate still further deeper down.

I don't buy the argument that the RAPE are beyond use. The WKKs are the ones who still treat them as equals with whom we should have brotherly relations. There are those Indians, whom the RAPE tend to look down upon. But slowly and steadily India itself is moving into a totally different orbit, and the Indian citizenship would mean more than the plundered treasure in a RAPE's bank account, not just to Indians, but to the RAPE themselves. There is already an Indian business and academic class, which has already grown beyond the likes of the RAPEs. All the 'fair skin' crap they dish out, means a $hit, when the meat is up for sale. In the 90s ex-Soviet Union women were available for money in cities from Shanghai, to Berlin to Islamabad to Dubai to Cairo. Pakistanis await nothing different.

I am sure that the RAPEs feel the breath of the barbarians at the doors, who are coming to rape their women and plunder their treasure and hang them by their necks. Their TFTA dreams are unravelling before their eyes. It is ok, if they can be lulled into feeling comfortable with India. We don't need to trust them. We don't need to be loved by them. They have some uses:

a) RAPEs can broadcast Indian messages through Pakistan's media, to those who care.
b) They can become our agents in the TSPA, giving us some feedback, and micro-influencing TSPA's decisions to whatever extent possible.
c) RAPE provide running commentary on the failure and destruction of Pakistan. The spreading of despair amongst the Pakistanis about their future, strengthens the dynamics of doomsday, as it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
d) All the criticism coming from the RAPE regarding extremism in society, is good nutrition for the Indian Muslims as well.
e) Indians can use their influence and knowledge about the lay of the land and society, after Pakistan crumbles like a pack of cards, to help us deal with Pakistan's failure.

RAPE's TFTA arrogance has a limited half-life.

So I don't mind the few carrots we are throwing at the RAPE. I see it as feeding our goose, before we halaal it.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2010 15:57

The other point I wanted to make is that if we look at Indian WKKs as RAPE/Paki assets, it would be equally useful for us to cultivate Paki WKKs as our assets.

I do not believe that Pakistani indoctrination is "more powerful" so that they cannot become WKKs while Indian indoctrination is "weak" allowing Indians to become WKKs. We have to create assets - with no promises that any of these mean peace of letting Pakistan get off lightly. Sort of carrot and stick - good cop/bad cop routine.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 06 Jul 2010 16:08

shiv wrote:The overall idea should be merely propaganda. Feed the ego. Pay some money and get a message across.


I wouldn't go so far as feeding the ego of Pakistanis. They already have too big an ego.

I would take the other route. Have a round of hearty laughs around some Indo-Pak cultural shows, may be some Indo-Pak Idol, or something. Have some fun playing cricket. Get a couple of Pakistanis into Bollywood and praise them.

On the other hand, India should take the Western route. Show sympathy and pity on the poor of Pakistan. Put into place some aid programs, and distribute some biscuits. That creates some distance between the rulers and the ruled, without allowing the rulers to make excuses pointing the finger at India.

The gloom and doom message for Pakistan should continue. It should also be clear, that it is all the fault of Pakistani society and Pakistani politicians.

The message should be, Indians accept the people of Pakistan, and we do not hate them; on the contrary we even care about their wellbeing. We tolerate them even though the whole world thinks they are pain in the arse. But on the whole, they are totally worthless and deserve what they are getting.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby brihaspati » 06 Jul 2010 17:24

shiv wrote
The other question is "Has Pakistan managed to indoctrinate everyone?"

Indoctrination comes from education and at best Pakistanis are educating only 33% of Paki children. Pakistan has about 70 million children below 15 (40%) and it is likely that at 40 million of them may not have received much indoctrination. That is a huge percentage - 25% of Pakis. Many of them are too young, many will be too poor and many will belong to ethnic groups who are less exposed to mainstream Paki education and indoctrination. This is a failure of the Pakistani education system that we must exploit.

India must somehow get a handle inside Pakistan to reach out to these groups and fill them with counter propaganda. By not dealing with Pakis at all we lose any chance of doing that. WKKs may be an obvious route of reaching areas that we cannot reach and the goal is a goal that WKKs can fulfil without complaint. Every Paki child fed with the truth today will be an asset (or at least will not be an opponent) for India as an adult tomorrow. We too need to think in the long term.

If nothing else we create an opinion/thought split in Paki society, which is great to prevent a fascist "single view" that Pakis are trying to create.


Apt observation. Only problem is the assumption that indoctrination can be and is only carried out directly by the state education apparatus. It is true that the Paki state apparatus does not reach out to the majority in the education sphere. However, a whole fleet of NGO's and Islamic "charities" carry out "dawa", which includes "Islamist education", and is an effective means of propaganda and brainwashing.

In fact there are well documented studies about the semi-virtual state role that most of these "dawa" organizations carry out and fill a very large vacuum left out by the formal state.

Ironically, it is the state educated ones who will also be exposed to alternate ideas because of the very nature of exposure to some of the modern technologies used in education. Learning a foreign language like English exposes the student to a tool, learning to use the internet exposes the student to a tool, etc. All these tools are likely to empower and provide a means of gratifying "sinful desires" to know "haram" stuff. but because these categories will be a minuscule proportion of the society and also sharing the ruling class origins and interests, they are less likely to use such tools to gain realistic perspectives. Therefore the only propaganda from across the borders along the lines being discussed here, had any hope of being effective only in this minuscule portion - but becomes ineffective due to the class nature of the recipients.

The early childhood conditioning is not just about hating the kafir. It is also about a whole set of attitudes towards knowledge gathering and processin g such knowledge or new information. The Islamist traditional educational process - which is more effectively carried out in the social environment of the Muslim, and is not really dependent on the formal educational model - is about conformation and submission to a rule based faith system. Any knowledge or information not conforming to this "given" is to be rejected.

This prevents the Pakis from developing technologically and science wise. But it is an indicator of the ideological paradigm that trains the Paki child's mind as to how to deal with new information. We are talking of propaganda to penetrate this! All that without having any handle on the early social environment of the child!

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Jul 2010 19:26

1. Sounds like "Aman Ki Asha" on steroids.

2. Speaking of indoctrination, (this is from Kerala)
http://sify.com/news/controversial-ques ... dcgfe.html

please ignore all the political stuff and focus on the attack on the individual where the hand was cut off. How is this hair-trigger reaction to any real or supposed slight to the Prophet brought about? Presumably the above proposals do not intend to go anywhere close to this?

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2010 20:37

brihaspati wrote:The early childhood conditioning is not just about hating the kafir. It is also about a whole set of attitudes towards knowledge gathering and processin g such knowledge or new information. The Islamist traditional educational process - which is more effectively carried out in the social environment of the Muslim, and is not really dependent on the formal educational model - is about conformation and submission to a rule based faith system. Any knowledge or information not conforming to this "given" is to be rejected.

This prevents the Pakis from developing technologically and science wise. But it is an indicator of the ideological paradigm that trains the Paki child's mind as to how to deal with new information. We are talking of propaganda to penetrate this! All that without having any handle on the early social environment of the child!


Of course the assumption here is that the rigorous islamic indoctrination that one would acquire in a "properly Islamic" environment is present among the vast mass of illiterate Paki junta in their spread out communities. . I am not sure that this is the case. It is possible - but even Islamic upbringing requires constant reinforcement from an established dissemination system. Nothing in Pakistan seems that well organised.

As far as the propaganda goes - I believe that we will never know how it may pan out until it is actually commenced. If it attracts criticism and censure in Pakistan, it means that it is doing something that worries the system. If it stays below the radar - at worst it may be ineffective, but even if it has a small effect I believe it needs to be tried.

The reason I say this is - and let me stick my neck out here - I see no hope for Pakistan in its current set up. Geopolitically Pakistan has painted itself into a corner. The nuclear weapons are too vital and dangerous to be let out of sight and it behoves India and the US to cooperate to keep them safe in the hands of an army that is disciplined and in control of those weapons. This statement is contrary to all that I have believed so far - but now I am beginning to wonder if I might have been wrong in thinking that the "world" is going to let the Taliban win and get its hands on nukes easily. Keeping the army happy means keeping Pakistani nationalism alive.

Keeping Pakistani nationalism alive automatically means conflict with sub nationalities who, in my view are not cowed down by war and will be encouraged to secede with peace. Pakistan will not stabilize and I will accept my error if it shows signs of doing that. Again my recent parleys with online Pakis gives me the impression that they are still deeply attuned to being hostile to India/Hindus but "liberal" when it comes to Ahmedis and Sufis. The Taliban have no such ambiguity - their stance has been and remains perfectly consistent.

Continuing strife in Pakistan may once again leave a split nation and I believe India must attempt to develop a constituency within Pakistan despite the odds. There are, I believe, some very difficult times ahead for India and region. The Pakistani army will have to be "managed" and its hostility gradually wound down and the risk of loss or use of nuclear weapons has to be kept to a minimum. I have been naive in talking lightly of nuclear war. The easy way is to say "OK lets have nuclear war". The difficult way is to manage to avoid it.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby brihaspati » 06 Jul 2010 20:56

Shiv ji,
vast sections of Paki society are beyond the reach of the official state. But except in the south, in Sindh, there is little non-Muslim visibility or presence in the rural societies away from major urban centres. It is here, and especially more towards the NW and north, (and even among the balochs), the state's absence in such vital sectors like education or health has been taken up largely by orgs like the Jamat-ud-Dawa.

In the absence of competing non-Islamic memes, why do they need to "reinforce" Islamism as the child grows? It is all around them. There is nothing else - nothing that contradicts whatever is taught as Islam there.

It is one thing to identify what would have been good to achieve, but another to realize that the conditions for achieving that good are not available.

As for nukes are concerned, they are too precious to be used. TSPA will shift them to a safe third Islamic power or use them to negotiate last extractable safety benefits before seeking asylum in the west. Once used they have no value, and TSPA will also not be in a position to replenish them quickly.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2010 21:00

A_Gupta wrote: Presumably the above proposals do not intend to go anywhere close to this?


Well the issue is relevant only peripherally.

One can be an Islamic extremist in India but (assuming we don't make the same mistakes as Pakistan) the act is a criminal act and will be dealt with under the law. On the other hand the way India deals with extremists from Pakistan is clear for all to see. They are usually shot dead. Vide the Ishrat whatever case - a lady who was killed in a supposedly "fake" encounter. Of all people David Headley has confirmed that she was a female Fidayeen terrorist, taking the bottom out of the "fake encounter" allegation.

The presence of Islamic terrorists in India - either home grown or imported should not prevent us from developing some strategy to deal with Pakistan the problem rather than being diverted by trying to deal with Islamic extremism the problem. At its worst, Islamic extremism is a law and order issue and Indian laws (must) trump any other laws of any origin or vintage. Pakistan, on the other hand is more than a mere Islamic extremism issue. It may have started from there but has evolved into a demographic-nuclear nightmare that Islam of any flavor cannot control.

The ugly face of Islam rearing its head is now scaring the crap out of Pakis who had cheered the soldiers of islam until recently. This is a geopolitical situation that we must not waste by taking sides for or against Islamic extremism but let it consume Pakistan if need be, while we control it within India. There is no other option.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 06 Jul 2010 21:18

brihaspati wrote:In the absence of competing non-Islamic memes, why do they need to "reinforce" Islamism as the child grows? It is all around them. There is nothing else - nothing that contradicts whatever is taught as Islam there.


If you look at what Pakistan has tried to achieve - it is strictly speaking not in the Islamic book. Pakis have been trying to add an appendix to Islam calling for the addition of a hatred chapter on Hindus in addition to the explicit Islamic cautions about Jews and Christians in the literature. It is these extra points that need specific "Pakistani" indoctrination.

In fact I believe that what has happened in Pakistan is that the traditional fissures within Islam - Shia-Sunni, Ahmedi, Barelvi-Deobandi, Wahhabi-Sufi have all been sought to be glued by the common hatred of Hindus as the "biggest threat". Recent developments in Pakistan indicate a failure of that glue. The reasons for failure of that glue are many - but when "Original Islam" takes over there is no specific hatred of the Hindu - especially when he is far away and the enemy (Americans, Ahmedis, Shia, Sufis) are all sitting right there in Pakistan.

Unless propaganda inside Pakistan appears to be "Hindu" in origin - it can hardly be blamed. In fact all the fissures Pakistan has can be used for all sorts of propaganda, but I would rather see a "benign, peaceful and prosperous" image of India being pushed into Pakistan simply for the fissures it will cause in Pakistan and the supporters it may get among those who actually want peace and stability. Of course this assumes that India keeps its own house in order - given that our development stats are barely ahead of Pakistan.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby brihaspati » 06 Jul 2010 22:00

Will it be possible to camouflage that source of propaganda? That requires open support for this or that constituency from Indian side. What will happen immediately is what the Ahmedis for example have tried to show : they promptly began to highlight their shining role in the first "Kashmiri" Jihad.

Pakis do not have to write an appendix to hate Hindus. They are the most vociferous quoters of the so-called Hadith affirming Muhammad's call for a "Ghazwa -e-Hind". I am sure the enlightened online Pakis you have had the good fortune to interact with are aware of this issue. The internet Paki community [and Palestianian, and Lebanese, and Egyptian, and Arabic, and Malaysian internet communities or Pakis masquerading as such] is awash with that "hadith" and its relevance etc.

Some have raised the issue of the fan-base of Bollywood and its potential damaging effect on Paki mentality. However, Bollywood's subtle message is not really detrimental to the Paki self-image. Most of Bollywood has male leads of Islamic origin and female leads acting opposite them as non-Muslims, and mostly Hindus. In the publicity campaigns, it is the "muslim" hero's name that overshadows the character he is playing. In a way that reinforces the Paki concepts of dominance. The imagery here translates to the virile Muslim male subjugating and "captivating" the Hindu female who submits - to a meme of one nation subjugating another.

Of course that is a fantasy! Does it lull them into inaction? Thinking of India as a weak and lesser adversary? From the Paki mindset, it only reinforces their own manifest destiny to subjugate the "Hindu", and that in an indirect way the Hindus themselves are supposedly acknowledging that destiny.

Alright, it may lead to misadventures on their part. But that does not mean much loss for them. Even if India gains or occupies territories, India will always mostly give it up. If a part of Pak breaks away, that will still contain enough Islamists to eventually act as just another little Pakistan - forever suspicious and hostile to the "Hindu", as BD has proved. So if "giving pain to the Hindu" is the Paki obsession, then that obsession is not really jeopardized by any misadventure.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby brihaspati » 06 Jul 2010 22:15

Actually, in my early days abroad, when I had a lot of Indian doctor friends who were again intensely friendly with Paki doctors, i had once a memorable party conversation with a Paki consultant. I had mentioned about the apparent popularity of Bollywood movies and queried him about how true it was! He laughed and said immediatley : oh thats very true, you Hindus will keep on stripping your girls for us to lick with our eyes. A Paki lady doctor who was present actually quipped that she thought that those actresses in Bollywood who were somewhat good looking were actually the result of Paki insemination in historical times when Hindu women were just there for the taking.

To this one Indian doctor "friend" who was present responded, that this could be true - given that most "beautiful" Bolywood actresses were from the north and west of India, and such figures and beauty were rare if not available in the rest of India.

I replied that since apparently beauty was only available to Hindus if raped by Paki Muslim men, since Pakis were Hindus before they got converted en masse - who raped the Pakis to confer that beauty in the first place? The Paki doctor glared at me saying Inshallah he will chop my head off one day fro such blasphemous talk. His Indian doctor friends joined in, in glaring at me, and of course chastizing me - saying I had forgotten the "Indian" "dharam"of tolerance and forbearance. I had to leave the party.

They all went on drinking merrily after that. In fact "Indians" started avoiding me after that. So I guess I can feel where "Indian" propaganda leads to - its most damaging effect being on Indians themselves.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby ramana » 06 Jul 2010 22:29

^^ Not to mention most of the actresses are from South India.

Also there is a role reversal in Bollywood now. Early on the actresses were Indian Muslim like Meena Kumari, Madhubala etc and the actors were Hindu like Raj Kapoor, Sunil Dutt, Rajendra Kumar etc.

Now its the other way round. So where have the Indian Muslim women actresses gone to? I think its to the South Indian film industry which hosts them.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Jul 2010 22:31

shiv wrote:This is a geopolitical situation that we must not waste by taking sides for or against Islamic extremism but let it consume Pakistan if need be, while we control it within India. There is no other option.


So Pakistan could be composed of India-friendly Islamic extremists?

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 06 Jul 2010 22:34

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:This is a geopolitical situation that we must not waste by taking sides for or against Islamic extremism but let it consume Pakistan if need be, while we control it within India. There is no other option.


So Pakistan could be composed of India-friendly Islamic extremists?


No so Pakistan could be composed of Pakistan-unfriendly Islamic extremists, indeed Pakistan-destroying Islamic extremists.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby ramana » 06 Jul 2010 22:45

Regarding the thread topic "Managing Paksitan Failure" what are the strategy and tactics to manage the issue?

Have we decided on the proposition that Pakistan is failing as a state and its the flailing that has to be managed?

Is a Yugoslavia type many states solution a desired outcome?
- Note Yugoslavia needed UN intervention.
Or is the solution like the CIS states from FSU?
Or is it Bangladesh type force needed?

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby surinder » 06 Jul 2010 22:59

brihaspati wrote:Actually, in my early days abroad, when I had a lot of Indian doctor friends who were again intensely friendly with Paki doctors, i had once a memorable party conversation with a Paki consultant.

...

<wonder ful post clipped for brevity>

...

So I guess I can feel where "Indian" propaganda leads to - its most damaging effect being on Indians themselves.



Brihaspati, please post a picture of your feet, so that I can bow to it!!! Great point.

In my interactons with sections of Indians who socialize and meet "mid-way" with the Pakis, it is the Desis who capitulate fully, saying things that would no self-respecting person would say. TSP'ians represent one of the most shameless society, asking them to adhere to logical arguments and to concede logical points is an activity desitned for failure. TSP does not have a have a film industry, or anything that represents an entertainment for them. They mooch off from Bollywood. It really does not matter whether the heros are ROP and women are kaafer; it could easily be the other way and they will not stop watching Bollywood. The music may be set to Indian raags with names of Hindu God/Gooddesses, that does not prevent them. They will steal merrily. It is futile to look for victory in this. They are a despaerate people living in a stiffling contry devoid of all creativity and the environmnet for it either. They have to steal others entertainment.

The problem happened when under ABV arround the time Kargil happened, India took a sharp turn to the right. Bollywood responded by films openly critical and condescending to TSP (Border, etc.) This bothered them no end... it was a fly in the ointment for them. Musharraff made use of his network in Inda and requested the film industry to desist from such anti-TSP portrayal. Effectively he was saying, "We share the same film industry, so please do not spoil our fun." Interestingly, even though TSP gives no revenues to Bollywood since they steal by piracy, Bollywood capitulated to the demand.

By the way, recently a friend of mine was telling me that many TSP'ians at his place of work had a mischevious grin and swagger at TSP player marrying Sania Mirza. Even though she is also ROP, they still derived pleasure from a virile Paki getting a femaile from India. The history memory (or fantasy) of taking femailes has not gone away.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RajeshA » 06 Jul 2010 23:13

surinder wrote:By the way, recently a friend of mine was telling me that many TSP'ians at his place of work had a mischevious grin and swagger at TSP player marrying Sania Mirza. Even though she is also ROP, they still derived pleasure from a virile Paki getting a femaile from India. The history memory (or fantasy) of taking femailes has not gone away.


shiv ji wrote a bit on the population explosion across the border, and what one can do about it.

Well here is my suggestion:

a) Give enough incentives to pure-poor parents of Muslim girls so that they send their girls to school.
b) Give those girls a girls-only but mixed-with-Dharmics school education, make them broad-minded.
c) Teach them some self-defense in sport classes to practice with their brothers.
d) Give them a good college education.
e) The Indian Muslim girls become vastly more educated than their Muslim male cousins.
f) They look for marital-bonding across the religious divide. The parents of the girl get a good Mahr from the bridegroom.
g) Indian Muslim men need women for marriage.
h) Indian Muslim men go and get those women in Pakistan. The Pakistani parents happily marry off their girls to Indian Muslim men.
i) Pakistanis run out of girls. Nobody wants to give them girls.
j) Pakistanis find goats attractive, but goats cannot give waris.
k) Pakistani qaum dies off, because men are men, and goats are goats.
l) Khatam Kahani!

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby ramana » 06 Jul 2010 23:23

^^Recall one of the charges against Badmash was he had Bollywood movies DVDs in his office which were seized after the Mushy coup.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby brihaspati » 06 Jul 2010 23:25

Pak and Yugoslav situations are entirely different. But the approach of the neo-imperialists to the Yugoslav situation is what reveals the approach could be modified as in case of Pak.

For Yugoslavia, it was a case of dismantling any remaining trace of "socialism"in the "heartland of Europe". Yes Tito remained non-aligned. But it still does not mean in favour of the western European network. Neo-imperialism of the western type treats separatism in very different lights depending on the situation. In the case of the Balkans, separatism had to be encouraged to breakdown any possible future revival of a socialist identity. No challenger or alternative model to the currently adopted EU model of cross-ethnic states could be allowed. The old theory of Islamism being the best bulwark against communism manifested itself in the creation of a Muslim homeland from a piece of ex-Yugoslavia. We see this dangerous semi-delusional theory act even now, when many of the chief movers and shakers among the western alliance are refusing to move against Islamism, as in Germany and UK. Sarkozy is going to be given a hard time next, and plans adopted to tone down the teeth of anti-Islamist forces in the rest of the nordic world. They will continue to do so, if the fear of a resurgent communism arising out of financial and economic crisis continues to haunt the elite.

In the case of Islamist countries themselves, separatism will be encouraged only if it creates more allies for the west. If on the other hand theres is the risk of multiple Islamist anti-western centres, neo-imperialists will fall back. For Pak, therefore everything depends on the pretensions of the various islamist groupings within Pak.

Regarding Pak as a failed state: we hear this term bandied about a lot. The usual macro, and socio-economic or governance issues cited to decide the label is rather tenuous. By that token many countries in the past were failed countries, but they have managed to retain their international recognition. We should rather say "currently non-functioning" according to some given criteria. Pakistan is non-functioning by prevalent western standards, but it does not mean that its regime, or power structure is necessarily in danger of being removed from existence.

The most likely scenario is that of portions of the ISI and TSPA will coordinate with Talebs and form a transitional form of Islamic state. Those deemed less "pure" will be halaaled or will fly first to the south and then to asylum in the west. The nukes will be a bit of a thorn. Both sides will try to take control, in which case the Saudis may come forward as the arbitrators and safe-keepers. Even the USA may endorse this.

Do THE balochis or Sindhis have any chance of surviving into separate nations. Not really. Iran will not want an independent Balochistan, and to ensure this particular spearatism, USA will have to engage in a wider war with both Talebs and Iran - another extension of the AFG front. So under Obama-drift, US admin is less likely to endorse separate Balochistan. An independent Balochistan is also more likely to be friendly towards India which neither UK, nor USA nor Pakjabis will prefer. In fact the same logic given to accommodate Talebs in AFG can be repeated in Pak case to allow such a Pakjabi gov to come in power in the name of "peace".

Once the "purer" Islamist state forms of course there will be a merry cleaning up inside Pak. But the world did not prevent the cleaning up in Iran, nor will it do in case of Pak.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby ramana » 07 Jul 2010 01:11

brihaspati wrote:...
The most likely scenario is that of portions of the ISI and TSPA will coordinate with Talebs and form a transitional form of Islamic state. Those deemed less "pure" will be halaaled or will fly first to the south and then to asylum in the west. The nukes will be a bit of a thorn. Both sides will try to take control, in which case the Saudis may come forward as the arbitrators and safe-keepers. Even the USA may endorse this....



Gald you are seeing the role of the TSP army and its main agency ISI. What is happening is the ISI is becoming the Mukhabarat of the modern Sultanate of Pakistan. There is very little material out of scholarly works on the Early Islamic Caliphate/Sultanates which describe the role of the Mukhbarat. What we know is the fragmented picture from "Seven Pillars of Wsidom" by T.E. Lawrence.

In Calculus terms Limit of Islamic State as Function of Islam as Islam tends to infinity is Pakistan.

Lt Islamic State (Islam) = Pakistan
Islam-> 0-0

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby brihaspati » 07 Jul 2010 01:20

ramana ji,
from the early days of "future strategic scenario" I am of the same opinion for more than a year now! I am revising my notes on the Caliphate and its current recreations in ideological terms. There is now a proliferation of such things. Surprisingly, Iran appears to be becoming an attractive model for some. Those having some working knowledge of Farsi/modern Iranian can try out searches. NSFW/H usually though. If you do, use university library provided electronic searches that clarifies to the "watchers" your affiliations.

The Talebs call for an emirate. But it looks like that the equation could be a highly compiicated one with the entry of Iranian ambitions for the IOR.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby svinayak » 07 Jul 2010 01:23

surinder wrote:By the way, recently a friend of mine was telling me that many TSP'ians at his place of work had a mischevious grin and swagger at TSP player marrying Sania Mirza. Even though she is also ROP, they still derived pleasure from a virile Paki getting a femaile from India. The history memory (or fantasy) of taking femailes has not gone away.

In a feudal society ownership is important. Owning property, owning people and owning wife is considered achievement. Hence owning something from India is considered a high fly winning!

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby brihaspati » 07 Jul 2010 02:15

The CIS states from FSU worked to a certain extent because of the heavy dependence of the "periphery" on the "motherland" - for economy, military and politics as well. If TSP breaks up, a CIS can be held together only if the there is a similar "motherland". But the periphery really has no infrastructure, no economy, and a decentralized civilian militia of all colours - and there is no segment, not even Pakjab that can serve as the "motherland". If India played the role of "motherland", it could have worked, but the most belligerent and hostile segment would remain avowdly a spoiler - Pakjab.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RamaY » 07 Jul 2010 02:26

ramana wrote:Regarding the thread topic "Managing Paksitan Failure" what are the strategy and tactics to manage the issue?

Have we decided on the proposition that Pakistan is failing as a state and its the flailing that has to be managed?

Is a Yugoslavia type many states solution a desired outcome?
- Note Yugoslavia needed UN intervention.
Or is the solution like the CIS states from FSU?
Or is it Bangladesh type force needed?


First it needs to be festered into Yugoslavia-like issue.It is up to Allah to decide if he needs India's help in that. That will roll the ball down Himalayas gaining mass and momentum as it comes down those snow-filled slopes.

All India need to do is to develop enough hot-blowers to melt all that ice at the right time fulfilling Paki wet-desires :twisted:

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby ramana » 07 Jul 2010 02:29

I guess they will be powered by all those nuke power plants from the IUCNA deal.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby sanjaykumar » 07 Jul 2010 04:37

I replied that since apparently beauty was only available to Hindus if raped by Paki Muslim men, since Pakis were Hindus before they got converted en masse - who raped the Pakis to confer that beauty in the first place? The Paki doctor glared at me saying Inshallah he will chop my head off one day fro such blasphemous talk. His Indian doctor friends joined in, in glaring at me, and of course chastizing me - saying I had forgotten the "Indian" "dharam"of tolerance and forbearance. I had to leave the party.


The Pakistanis you see on television, in politics, often in the west are not the ones from the street.

Although some Pathans can have exceptional features, most Pakistanis have to make up in piety what they lack in the looks department.Check out the ones in Oslo-100%Pakistan from the pind. Now check out the jats from nearby Indian Punjab. Maybe it was only the homely Turks who felt the need to do the swooping down the Khyber (the better class were probably settled).

One problem is that in India/Pakistan fairer skin is equaled to beauty. Sorry but the Banjaras of Rajasthan with their Sun blackened skins have a greater personal grace and beauty than the middle classes of lahore.

It is satisfying that in India, the better-looking classes are never to be seen on the streets or public life; in Pakistan you don't see the aam aadmi in poitics/positions of power. Reminds me of the half-whites of Haiti. Well I suppose tit is good for these oligarchs that the masses of Pakistan agree with them that they are too stupid and homely for the limelight.


PS In one of the cities I frequent, I am able to compare Indian Panjabis and Pakistani Panjabis.

PPS Great retort, but even greater spirit Jupiter saab.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2010 07:12

A_Gupta wrote:
So Pakistan could be composed of India-friendly Islamic extremists?


The way I look at Islamic extremism is as follows:

Islamic extremism (violence, coercion, exclusivism) is an extension of the principles allowed in Islam. Technically as long as Islam exists there will be extremism.

How do you remove Islamic extremism? Do you remove it by removing all traces of islam, or by appeals and propaganda (begging?) or by some other route?

I do not believe that removal of Islam is practicable. The reason it exists is because there are some aspects of Islam that people find comforting or attractive - no matter how distasteful that may appear to you or me. Islam offers certain opportunities for humans under certain conditions that people seem to like. So the removal of Islam is an unrealistic goal.

What needs to be done is to make violence costly for Islam. Islam itself is greatly respected by its followers. But if that "respected" faith is used for violence we cannot stop at merely controlling the violence. There has to be an active campaign to smear Islam and make it appear like a disability like AIDS or leprosy as long as violence is used. So there is a propaganda aspect as well which is absolutely essential. That propaganda cannot work when people read long passages from Islamic literature and try and prove that Islam is defective. It can only work when it is done when Islam is used for violence and blood is still dripping from the bodies of people killed in the name of Islam.

That means even if you want to smear Islam, there is a time for it. The time to smear Islam is immediately after people are killed in the name of Islam. That is when there is least mental resistance to such information. At other times you will be accused of all sorts of things ("Intolerance", "bigotry", "unsecular"). It follows that the greater the violence used by followers of Islam the greater the opportunities for smearing. This is a pure propaganda game. When violence is not used by the followers of Islam, it is OK to negotiate and WKK. The idea is basically to force a dilution of Islam and force back the tendency to use violence in Islam. It cannot be done on a local scale. In this day of world wide media it has to be done on a large scale. In fact the cartoon controversy and the Faceboook controversy are exactly attempts to draw Islam into a fight so that any violent reaction can be used as proof of Islam's violence.

The idea is to quarantine violent Islam and hold it in Pakistan, while punishing violence very severely outside. Islam with non violence must be allowed to survive like other faiths. It should be evolutionarily impossible for islam to survive or expand using violence.

Islam itself needs dilution so that its survival is linked to the avoidance of violence. However this will not be possible if we punish all Muslims for just being Muslim in the same manner as Islamic extremism calls for the punishment of kafirs for just existing. That would be a self goal.

What happens when Muslims keep on and on and on killing each other. I will try and locate my copy of Naipaul's "Among the believers" to quote his observations of people's thoughts after the Iran Iraq war.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RamaY » 07 Jul 2010 07:34

Ramanaji,

The USSR analogy has to be applied differently.

Russia is at the core of USSR. When USA won the cold war it was able to separate the periphery states from Russia, where as the core not only survived but also remained potent enough to cause sleepless nights to the Atlantisists.

TSP is not a core state, but just one of the periphery states of Bharat. Bharattoo kept its core intact while losing Burma, Tibet, BD, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc., in its periphery.

The best analogy of TSP is Ukrain, Yugoslavia, and Georgia etc., This is what one can see in that "Tale of two client states" article I posted earlier.

All these periphery states made to become clients of one or the other enemies of the core states. In almost all scenarios they ended with similar fates when the core regained its strength. I will give you few examples -

Yugoslavia: When the friction between it's core genetics and their sponsors became too much, Yugoslavia split into multiple entities State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs.

Georgia: Same as Yugoslavia. When the state is propped too much by its sponsor the state pushed the envelope too much and Russia reasserted its hold over South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Pakistan: This exactly what happened with our toilet state of Pakistan. The core asserted its influence by splitting it into two :twisted: . The same shall happen again when and everytime TSP becomes over jealous.

My thesis is that this is the natural state of evolution as far as peripheries are concerned. The core cannot be destroyed and the periphery states that backstab the core will be dissolved back to core, one piece at a time.

I think IG was right when she decided against absorbing BD. The core was too weak to absorb/assimmilate/transform the periphery back to its original state. This situation is true even today. So it will be prudent not to absorb any part of TSP until the core finds its "soul", and instead let the disintegrated parts to evolve as they fit in contemporary geo-political game.

My gut feeling is that TSP will disintegrate irrespective of India wanting or doing anything. Like the character in "The Line" movie says "Anything that is born in fundamentally unsustainable way, will dissolve itself sooner than later. External influences only lengthen the life of these Frankensteins" (or something like that).

In my opinion the tide already turned. Until now Unkil has enough economic & military clout to maintain local goondas in every region under its protection. Their $500B military budget allowed this game to run all these days. When PRC becomes a $10T PPP economy, its military budget will be anywhere between $300-400B PPP, India's $200-300B PPP, and Russia $100-150B etc., All these military budgets are primarily focused on defending their respective cores only, where as USA has to defend its core while paying for these local goondas.

This whole game will reach a equilibrium sooner (my prediction 2018-2025) than later given the collapse of western economies and sustained growth in other regions.

All India has to do to manage Pakistan's failure is
- Revitalize its core - meaning and purpose of Bharat.
- Create necessary civic infrastructure to transform and absorb the periphery states
- Make sure that another geopolitical competitor is not eyeing on these periphery states (as it would initiate next cycle of chatur-yuga)
- Extend its geopolitical periphery to include the buffer states between Bharat and other potential competitors.


JMT...
Last edited by RamaY on 07 Jul 2010 07:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RamaY » 07 Jul 2010 07:42

shiv wrote:Islamic extremism (violence, coercion, exclusivism) is an extension of the principles allowed in Islam. Technically as long as Islam exists there will be extremism.

How do you remove Islamic extremism? Do you remove it by removing all traces of islam, or by appeals and propaganda (begging?) or by some other route?

I do not believe that removal of Islam is practicable. The reason it exists is because there are some aspects of Islam that people find comforting or attractive - no matter how distasteful that may appear to you or me. Islam offers certain opportunities for humans under certain conditions that people seem to like. So the removal of Islam is an unrealistic goal.

What needs to be done is to make violence costly for Islam. Islam itself is greatly respected by its followers. But if that "respected" faith is used for violence we cannot stop at merely controlling the violence. There has to be an active campaign to smear Islam and make it appear like a disability like AIDS or leprosy as long as violence is used. So there is a propaganda aspect as well which is absolutely essential. That propaganda cannot work when people read long passages from Islamic literature and try and prove that Islam is defective. It can only work when it is done when Islam is used for violence and blood is still dripping from the bodies of people killed in the name of Islam.

...


While I agree with the overall point, I think this hypothesis mistakes the symptom to be the decease.

Islamic Extremism is just a symptom, not the decease. We can do everything to suppress the symptom but that would cure the decease permanently. This is like making laws to prohibit drug-abuse. They are effective as long as there is a strong law-enforcement mechanism. The addiction comes out as soon as the civic-infrastructure weakens.

What we need to do is cure the decease while suppressing the symptoms in the short term.

I will give an example: I have met educated and humble IMs who hate Jews for no obvious reason, even though they never interacted with them in a social setting. They do it just because they believe in certain religion that teaches them that Jews must be loathed. We can create all types of racial-discrimination laws and policies, but will never be able to remove this unreasonable hatred. The only solution is to erase the decease.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2010 07:43

While fishing in virtual online Paki waters it occurred to me that the old "truths" we had figured out about Pakis are all perfectly true.

There is a kind of "mixed pool" in their minds where they see themselves both as Pakistanis and as Muslims. As long as extremism was directed at India, the Pakistani identity and Muslim identity reinforced each other. It is OK to hit India.

When Hindus and Sikhs were hit in Pakistan, the Islam identity makes it OK because Pakistan minus Islam cannot exist. So it is OK to hit kafirs.

But when people who are thought to be Muslims are hit in Pakistan then the identity takes a real beating. It seems to me that Pakis do not see this as a case of Pakistani hitting Pakistani. They see it as a case of Muslim hitting Muslim.

How is this different?

If Pakistani hits Pakistani, then a separate criminal Pakistani law can (in theory) be applied to the perpetrators. But when the question is viewed as Muslim versus Muslim then no human made laws can apply. It becomes a question of ideology and what the book says. As we all know, under Islam, the man who claims to quote the book is always right and he is even more right if he has a gun. But this is Pakistan's problem. They are welcome to kill themselves or keep fighting over whether Pakistan needs a constitution or only Quran. Whether the want Jinnah or Iqbal. We cannot clean up Islamic extremism in Pakistan.

But what we can do in Pakistan is to introduce more confusion into this soup. As long as suffering and Muslim killing Muslim occurs in Pakistan - each incident provides an opportunity to show that there are alternative methods. One of the problems of open debate is that we look for consensus. But this is a situation where consensus is not necessary. WKK goes on without consensus in India. Even a propaganda war in Pakistan can go on without consensus. As long as it can provide some benefit to India and few repercussions, I would support that. Having said that even I don't know what form that propaganda should take and the exact medium that might carry it. To that extent my ideas are pure fluff.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2010 07:47

RamaY wrote:Islamic Extremism is just a symptom, not the decease. We can do everything to suppress the symptom but that would cure the decease permanently.


This is your viewpoint, Like I said consensus around any viewpoint is unnecessary. Even WKK is going on without consensus. Anyone is free to do anything as long as it is legal and helps India. After all "Pure islam" of the Pakistani variety is an attempt at forcing consensus around one viewpoint. No we don't want that do we?

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RamaY » 07 Jul 2010 07:53

No disagreement there Shiv-ji 8) I am just presenting a different POV.

That said, laws meant to be changed to suit national interests. A govt thinks POTA is in national interest and another thinks it is a oppressive law. At the core democracy means change :wink:

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2010 08:12

brihaspati wrote:Some have raised the issue of the fan-base of Bollywood and its potential damaging effect on Paki mentality. However, Bollywood's subtle message is not really detrimental to the Paki self-image. Most of Bollywood has male leads of Islamic origin and female leads acting opposite them as non-Muslims, and mostly Hindus. In the publicity campaigns, it is the "muslim" hero's name that overshadows the character he is playing. In a way that reinforces the Paki concepts of dominance. The imagery here translates to the virile Muslim male subjugating and "captivating" the Hindu female who submits - to a meme of one nation subjugating another.

Of course that is a fantasy! Does it lull them into inaction? Thinking of India as a weak and lesser adversary? From the Paki mindset, it only reinforces their own manifest destiny to subjugate the "Hindu", and that in an indirect way the Hindus themselves are supposedly acknowledging that destiny.


I believe that all action that will take place (or indeed can take place) can occur only within the constraints of reality. If reality poses a hurdle to a particular action only two routes are possible

1) Try and change the reality to something else and then take the action that needs to be taken
2) Try and take action despite the reality by squeezing whatever benefit can be squeezed despite the hurdles posed by reality.

It is easy to provide analogies that would support either option, so I will provide no analogies. In this case the reality is that Bollywood exists as it is. It is a mixed bag.

Do we try and change Bollywood so it stops reinforcing the image that it purportedly portrays, or is there any way in which we can utilize Bollywood as it exists to bend opinions in a particular way that suits what we want?

Given the choice I would choose the latter. Option 2.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2010 08:24

brihaspati wrote:Actually, in my early days abroad, when I had a lot of Indian doctor friends who were again intensely friendly with Paki doctors, i had once a memorable party conversation with a Paki consultant. I had mentioned about the apparent popularity of Bollywood movies and queried him about how true it was! He laughed and said immediatley : oh thats very true, you Hindus will keep on stripping your girls for us to lick with our eyes. A Paki lady doctor who was present actually quipped that she thought that those actresses in Bollywood who were somewhat good looking were actually the result of Paki insemination in historical times when Hindu women were just there for the taking..


Ouch! That must have hurt. But even if what they said was 100% true - it means little. It only means Pakistanis of that era living abroad had a ready made insult to slap Indians who asked them questions that were designed to embarrass them. This is obviously such a practised response - it is clear that you were probably the latest of a long line of Indians who had tried to use the "Bollywood is popular" question to put Pakis in a dilemma and they were long past being trapped by that question.

Pakistanis have well thought out responses to almost any accusation you throw at them so they need to be approached with caution. There are two aspects here. One is the rhetoric of talking to Pakis - where insults or clever replies can be traded. The other of course is the reality of dealing with a nation that was formed from the same clever excuses.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 07 Jul 2010 08:36

brihaspati wrote:Once the "purer" Islamist state forms of course there will be a merry cleaning up inside Pak. But the world did not prevent the cleaning up in Iran, nor will it do in case of Pak.


Exactly. But the cleaning up is going to be over an area that houses 170 million people (currently) of whom 120 million are in spread out rural communities. So it will be the biggest single Islamic clean up operation in history. If nothing else it will be slow (decades - it has already started and is nowhere near complete) and unless the cleaning up involves killing enough people to bring the birth rate to zero - the population is going to increase as the clean up proceeds.

And at least some of those people are going to want to come across the border to India - as I pointed out earlier in this thread. If people did not have to run from the clean up, a clean up is unnecessary. What I would like to see in Pakistan is a situation where these people, running from the clean up can continue to stay in Pakistan, with Indian aid if necessary. To that end a little propaganda that Indians are not bad people can only help.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RamaY » 07 Jul 2010 08:55

shiv wrote:...
And at least some of those people are going to want to come across the border to India - as I pointed out earlier in this thread. If people did not have to run from the clean up, a clean up is unnecessary. What I would like to see in Pakistan is a situation where these people, running from the clean up can continue to stay in Pakistan, with Indian aid if necessary. To that end a little propaganda that Indians are not bad people can only help.


Tathastu! 1000 years to you.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pratyush » 07 Jul 2010 10:34

ramana wrote:Regarding the thread topic "Managing Paksitan Failure" what are the strategy and tactics to manage the issue?

Have we decided on the proposition that Pakistan is failing as a state and its the flailing that has to be managed?

Is a Yugoslavia type many states solution a desired outcome?
- Note Yugoslavia needed UN intervention.
Or is the solution like the CIS states from FSU?
Or is it Bangladesh type force needed?



Ramana,

Somalia is the appropriate templet.

JMT.

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pulikeshi » 07 Jul 2010 12:34

ramana wrote:Regarding the thread topic "Managing Paksitan Failure" what are the strategy and tactics to manage the issue?

Have we decided on the proposition that Pakistan is failing as a state and its the flailing that has to be managed?


Couple of quick points:

  1. The correct characterization of the problem is a protracted civil-war between the Indus and the Gangetic cultures being played on a shared civilization ethos. Albeit, Pakistan today falls into the rejection camp and India into the reluctant holder of civilization substratum camp.
  2. The citizens of TSP are a failure – the silent majority is powerless to demand its rights and maintain the mores of civilized society. In their complacency to accept the insane quest for purity, similar to Nazi Germany, they are failing themselves and their state. Given the right opportunity, Pakistani extremists would not only run concentration camps, but also commit mass murder given the evidence on hand thus far.
  3. The chunk of civilization that the society of TSP clings to is a failure – Turk, Persian, Arab, etc, identities and chunks of civilization have failed TSP’s society, but this society has lost its ability to introspect. All it is capable of now is a frantic ADD in its search of purity of one myth or another all leading to the Prophet himself.
  4. The state of TSP is a failure only in that it has come close to destabilizing any social contract it held with its citizens, but the tipping point seems to never come. Perhaps because outside powers supply sufficient timely energy to keep the pendulums swinging. Ceteris paribus, the state itself has not failed and I don’t envision that changing no matter the wet dreams of jingoes.
  5. TSP Industry and Economic engine is not a failure as it was never in the running. The lands of this country are fertile and can lavish its hard working people. However, it is captive to Feudals or Army – so no hope of economic activity aiding them. In imbibing the “invader” gene, the state failed to notice that it cannot “rob” resources externally, so it turned to begging to external powerful entities and on the other hand it looked inward and began robbing its own people. No economic progress can occur under these circumstances, but there is no failure because only “baniya” India thinks about such lowly things.
  6. Even Religion has failed in TSP. However, it is only relevant if India can use this for leverage or introspection leads civil society to recognizing the shortcomings of any system that sells purity and perfection. However, I do not find this aspect useful as at best India (state) cannot pursue any efforts to fix anything here, at worse she does not have the stomach to use the failure to her advantage. Glad to be proved wrong on this front, but I suspect I am correct.
  7. Finally, the TSP Army cannot, has not and will not fail!

So, given this premise what does it mean to say, “Managing Pakistan’s Failure?”

  1. Scope: India the nation state will be called upon to manage – citizens, society, civilization, state, economy, religion and of course defeat the unfailing TSP Army. This is too broad and unachievable. India will need a major war followed by a Marshall plan to achieve this end.
  2. Internal: The forces tearing apart at TSP means that controlling them is uncertain even with the best planning. Better for India to consider the strategy of "radicalize the radicals" make the costs so untenable, that a solution is precipitated. Such a strategy is not without risk, but it will deliver if managed.
  3. Timing: The underlying substrate – citizen, society, civilization, economy, religion etc. will all fail before the state itself fails. The question India has to ask herself is when to intervene, if an intervention is necessary and to what end.
  4. Neighbors: If India desires an end goal of multiple smaller states in its western neighborhood that are part of a loose union -- economically if not politically -- with India, then it requires a different Afghanistan and Iran surrounding these new states. If on the other hand India desires an end goal of a single weak pacified state (however unlikely BRF may think this scenario to be), then it requires a different Afghanistan and Iran surrounding such a state. GOI seems to be pursuing the second option currently – perhaps due to lack of imagination and risk aversion (see the scope problem above).
  5. Goal: India 2020 - demands a regional unchallenged power status for India. This means managing the Indian subcontinent, rather than managing Pakistan’s failure.

Ramblings as usual, brickbats are welcome...

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Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby derkonig » 07 Jul 2010 13:38

The nature of the Islamic beast is such that it can only sustain on violence against the other, whether it be violence in the immediate term or the "prospect" of violence in the future. For islamists, India remains an unfinished conquest, so no matter how much effort we put in to cut down the beast to size, the islamists will simply bide their time & start their cycle of violence again. The only & viable solution is total annihilation of islamists down to the last person. Until then, every measure is a half measure. For all the debate we may have on the "feasibility" of total annihiliation, dharma & karma, log-kya-kahenge, communaaal hindooootvavadis; there is no other solution. The sooner this dawns on the majority, the better is is for the Indic civilization. Our flanks are best protected when they are depopulated.

Sometimes it is highly exasperating to see posters who otherwise post brilliant stuff, entertaining notions of islamists being reformed & some grand reconciliation happening in the future when all the "misguided" children of Bharatvarsh will see the folly of their ways & return back to the dharmic fold (In fact I would call upon the posters here to show even one instance in history where the non-Indic belief systems have actually given up their predatory nature & learnt to live in coexistence with other beliefs). Lets not delude ourselves, such opinions only suit the WKKs who are traitors anyway. It is time we consider the non-Indics as truly lost & beyond redemption, destined to burn in the hell they have/are creating for themselves. Our aim should to be to add fuel to fire that rages in their well deserved hell & not take up the role of the dharmic firefighter who hopes that by saving these subhumans we will reform them and at the same time we will earn good karma. We cannot reform them & we aren't getting any good karma coz by saving the non-Indics we are only aiding & rehabilitating them & therefore setting the stage for another round of violence by these subhumans. That cant be a good deed by any measure.


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