Managing Pakistan's failure

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby Altair » 27 Jun 2010 17:09

There are two options
1. Longshot solution which needs considerable patience and resolve.
2. Shortcut solution which has risk of loosing couple of our cities and considerable infrastructure.

1.Longshot-Isolation and Implosion

> Pakistan must be kept between two thick concrete walls. India and Afghanistan.
> We must continue our development work in Afghanistan and ramp it up.
> Increase employment and develop education and industries in Afghanistan for longterm.
> Provide intel and military support to their Armed forces. We MUST strengthen Afghanistan to a point where it can hold off Pakistan's quest for strategic depth.
>Make Afghanistan-Pakistan borders as tight as possible.

As Pakistani feels more and more caged , the natural animal instinct of a Paki would turn him against his fellow paki.
Attacks of more pious against less pious would increase exponentially in proportion to 1.Degree of isolation 2.Population.
The fire will consume everyone inside Pakistan within couple of decades.
The process has already started but it needs to be monitored and needs regular house keeping.
We have been doing this for the past 8 years and must continue for the next decade and beyond.
Meanwhile we should strengthen our Armed forces and continue to isolate Pakis as much as possible from east and west.

Plusses:
No immediate risk of War.
Minusses:
Too many extraneous factors


OR

2. shortcut-War and Explosion

Breakup Pakistan into 5 independent states and deal with them later.

Plusses: Only a small Punjab to deal with in the aftermath.
Minusses:
Pakistan can use nuclear weapons against Indian cities during the breakup operation.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby shiv » 27 Jun 2010 17:20

RajeshA wrote:[*]c) Fragmented Warlordism with lots of hungry Abduls
[*]d) Abduls pounding on India's doors and borders[/list]



I think (c) has already started, Only (d) remains.
As regards Altairs thought:
1.Longshot-Isolation and Implosion

> Pakistan must be kept between two thick concrete walls. India and Afghanistan.


Recall that "isolationism" from the Indian side has gone on for over a decade. But the isolationism from the Afghan side has started since 9-11.

So Altair's scenario 1 has already started.

My contention is that it should be possible to gain control over some segments of of Pakis society at this stage and not give the Taliban a walkover, so when it all ends, we end up with more influence that we have had for 63 years.

What modalities do we use given the above 2 factors- i.e that "Isolationism" is continuing and fragmentation of society is occurring?

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11195
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby Gagan » 27 Jun 2010 17:52

Pakistan can't be broken cleanly into 5 entities.
There are several more sub-ethinicites, where local warlords will emerge, and they will divide along those lines.
One way that is going to happen is what is happening currently - more strife, lawlessness, political bungling and short-sightedness.
The pakistan armed forces are buying Amraams, Submarines, and block 52 F-16s - fat lot of good it is going to do to them with the abduls and mullas, armed to the teeth and shouting AoA, coming down upon them from the mountains.
They are not getting out of their economic mess no matter how much aid the 3.5 put in. And they have never stood up on their feet these 6 decades.
India will have to ride this terror output from Pakistan. And manage their fall slowly so that there is minimum impact on the region.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11195
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby Gagan » 27 Jun 2010 17:57

To break pakistan into 5 entities, will need an army to invade and take control of that whole nation or atleast part of it.

India is not going to do that. Neither is the US.
The only other option is the one where the mullahs and abduls are given more power, and pakistan's fall is managed. After the mullas have done their deed, the situation can be better managed.

It is going to take time.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby shiv » 27 Jun 2010 18:02

Check this news
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 096293.cms
Lashkar & ISI united in terror, Headley tells NIA
Sources said that Headley told the NIA team comprising Loknath Behera, Swayamprakash Pani, Sajid Shapoo and special prosecutor Dayan Krishnan that his reconnaissance missions and its results were closely and jointly monitored by LeT and ISI before he received fresh instructions.


"Conventional" wisdom tells us that the ISI is a branch of the Paki army and received funds from the army. The Paki army is subsidized by the USA.

Of course the news could mean that the ISI has its own independent funding, perhaps from the Jamaat ud Dawa and from drugs. This could also explain the inability of anyone in Pakistan who might possibly want to control these entities to do that.

As I see it - the ISI is now just one more terrorist group. What can we do to pressurize the US to stoop giving them indirect support via the Paki army. Same old question.

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby Altair » 27 Jun 2010 18:08

There is an important factor which must be understood by everyone here.
How is a Pakistani brought up? Where does the fragmentation start?

The answer is the fragmentation starts when he is still a boy. It starts with
1. Me against brother
2. My brothers of same mother against brothers of step mother
3. My brothers against cousins
4. My cousins of same clan against other clans within same tribe
5. My clans of same tribe against other tribes
6. My sect against other sects
7. Me against less pious and other infidels
8. Me against world

Its not as simple as its appears above,The piskology is much deeper. But this is how a paki mindset evolves over a period of time.
Even at stage 8 stage 1 still exists in his mindset as does other stages in his evolution
You crack this,You crack a paki.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby RajeshA » 27 Jun 2010 18:19

Gagan wrote:Pakistan can't be broken cleanly into 5 entities.
There are several more sub-ethinicites, where local warlords will emerge, and they will divide along those lines.
One way that is going to happen is what is happening currently - more strife, lawlessness, political bungling and short-sightedness.

Perhaps one should study the case of Slovenian independence as a precursor to independence for Sindh and Baluchistan.

In ex-Yugoslavia, Serbia was at war with Croatia, and in all this confusion the Slovenes achieved their independence without much resistance. In the case of Pakistan, if the Pakjab Army is tied up in a war with the Taliban/Pushtun, it could be possible for the Sindhis and Baluchis to come free, while making token announcements of loyalty to Islamabad and Pindi.

It depends. When the Pakjabi Army starts losing control to the Taliban, some regions can break free, and with the support of India and other countries stay intact, self-sufficient and be recognized as independent countries.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby shiv » 27 Jun 2010 18:46

If nobody has any objections I would like to see this thread renamed to "Managing Pakistan's failure" - which I believe has better psy-ops value.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby RajeshA » 27 Jun 2010 18:59

@shiv,

go ahead! It sounds better! :)

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby shiv » 27 Jun 2010 19:54

RajeshA wrote:@shiv,

go ahead! It sounds better! :)



I can't do that. I am no longer an adminullah. I was dismissed for trying to bribe the webmaster.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11195
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby Gagan » 27 Jun 2010 20:08

RajeshA wrote:It depends. When the Pakjabi Army starts losing control to the Taliban, some regions can break free, and with the support of India and other countries stay intact, self-sufficient and be recognized as independent countries.

Yes.
The Pakistani army is arming themselves to the teeth the best they can, in anticipation of another Bangladesh. They fear that the same Bangladesh template is being applied here.

This is the wonderful thing here. This one's entirely new, there is no answer to this one. Because it originates truly from within Pakistan. The snake that the ISI was feeding all these years has grown up, and it has grown its poison fangs.
It is unlikely that even the ISI will be able to manage this one.

This one's strictly hands off for India. The only hands that are doing any thing in Nai Dilli are the one's reaching for the beer and popcorn.

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby harbans » 27 Jun 2010 22:44

X posted:

I very much doubt that Paki's will infiltrate either using BDs technique or pushing through large refugee camps across the border. This will be done through WKKs, Liberals in India by creating an environment where Indian leaders would make borders irrelevent in some place and keep extending the experiment Southwards. There will be in 2-3 decades a massive number of Paki's working/ trading/ settling all over in those areas and eventually outnumbering locals in another 2 decades. It would happen maybe like this..

Indian PM in a gush of goodwill agrees 3 border districts in Rajasthan, Punjab made trade free areas for Pakis to enter without visas etc. In effect it will shift border controls Eastwards of these districts and eventually the people who come to trade will marry, convert, settle, breed and outnumber..making these districts pretty much a part of Pukistan in 2-3 decades. Reports in the interim warning Governments of massive changes in demographics will be rubbished as 'Hindu' right views and chai-biscoot sessions where Pukes and WKKs gush on each other's hospitality will be brought up and those relevent reports rubbished. Of course till 4 decades into this Indian GOI will control courts and criminal law etc. But once the demographics change through liberals there will be a clamor for giving more rights to Pukes settled within our borders. Meanwhile one will see the number of districts where such trade and visa free entry is allowed increasing along the border and in depth...means districts that don't border Pakistan and border districts that border Pukistan also will be got into the "irrelevent" border logic..resulting in more migration and more demographic changes.

Just like the commies in WB allowed BD migration, the WKK and left liberal jhollawala type brigade will push these concepts down our throats. 4 decades dow after commencement of this policy one will see Pukes actually have outpopulated us in tens of 1000's of kms within India itself..

Just imagine a Taliban style regime in Pakistan takes over when this is ongoing..RAPES will come in huge numbers, do shairy with WKKs and denounce Taliban as 'unislamic' and media will do it's bit saying Paki's are suffering under Taliban and we should welcome into India the constituency against Taliban and allow them more trading areas and districts. Just a few IEDs in the border districts will hieghten the WKKs to do the == suffering routine clamoring for more Paki infiltration.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby RamaY » 27 Jun 2010 22:57

XPosted

RamaY wrote:
Gagan wrote:All this talk of 30 million turning up on the Indian border for food is unduly dramatic. I don't think it will quite happen this way. Pakistan is straining to remain a single unit. The strings that bind them together are weaker by the day, as the economic situation gets more desperate. Happily, their desperation to maintain their hollow H&D will prove to be their undoing.


Gagan-ji

I do not think so. As the internal violence increases mango-abduls will try to sneak into India. Before their liberation Bangladeshis were Pawkis and they did the same.

Hopefully future Indian PM replays IG's game plan. But then we will be left with another BD land in our west causing slow immigration drain into India as BD is doing now.

There is no easy solution to this problem.

* As long as India keeps them outside, they will become pawns in external players' hands (look at BD and PRC relationship).

* If you bring them in, you are destroying your own house.

My recommendation is to
- Keep them out and separate from Bharat.
- As part of the liberation strategy, build complete reliance on India w.r.t vital food/energy/water supplies
- Support military dictatorships in these states (Islam is not compatible with democracy) and make sure that the dictators die every 3-5 years.
- Install 100% hold on their education and civil-laws.



RamaY wrote:
Smokers’ Corner: The punishing verdict
By Nadeem F. Paracha

... the same survey finds broad support for harsh punishments: [b]78 per cent favour death for those who leave Islam; 80 per cent favour whippings and cutting off hands for crimes like theft and robbery; and 83 per cent favour stoning adulterers to death.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -760-hh-05


I strongly recommend that this law is passed in Pakistan and implemented 400%. This will solve 99.8% of the population problem that is in discussion past two pages...

- Define Islam. All Shias and Ahmedis are kind of left that pure islam == KILL THEM
- Cutting of hands for theft and robbery. 90% of TSPA/ISI qualifies for this claim/crime == AMPUTATE THEM
- Stoning Adulterers to death. 100% RAPE class falls into this category == STONE THEM TO DEATH

This leaves PURE Sunni Muslims. Declare war on them and kill them.

Change Hindu laws (== Secularism) to allow polygamy and convert those living muslim women. Every Indian who marries a converted woman will get 10 Acres of land in West-Indian states of SindhuDesh, Taksasila, Madra, and so on...


RamaY wrote:Guys... please think...

All your plans expect Yindoo-Baniyas to do the hard work and you forget that Yindoo-Baniyas are weak and timid.. Let the martial races of Pakistan do your work.

Please see my post above. Support Taliban - Encourage them to install the purest of pure (purer than brophet and even allah if needed) form of Islam. Ask them to Kill all non-believers amongst them. Amputate thieves and robbers. Stone to death all adulterers.

Let the purest man come forward and demand India to submit. Let the strongest man win. If Allah is happy with those purest of pure Pakis, he will take them to Jennat, far away from these filthy kaffirs.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby RamaY » 27 Jun 2010 23:02

Harbans garu,

Would it matter who/how/when/where created a pakistan in India when the overall outcome is same?

There will always be a section in any nation that tries to undermine the majority for one or the other reason. So it is upto the majority to strategize the game so the outcome will be what they want. Proxies and deception is the game of 21st century.

Once again, the nationalistic few must preempt any long term harm to India sooner than later.

Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby Dhiman » 28 Jun 2010 00:04

RajeshA wrote:The political class, and I guess, the majority of the people, in India has already come to terms with living in State with a birth defect (PoK), for a number of reasons. The people are however not happy with the ongoing terrorism campaign coming from next door.


Perhaps our collective threshold for taking direct action against hasn't been breached yet as it was during Kargil land grab and 1971 wars. Recently some Pakistani idiot clarified the following to me: TSP's support of terrorists is worth it for the sole purpose that it is a good way to keep their favorite jihadist complaints (i.e, Kashmir, etc) on India's burner otherwise India would never bother to "resolve" Kashmir (i.e Kashmir will never come under Islamic rule either under Pakistan or independently). The Pakistani mindset needs to be trained against such thinking either through land grab or other means.

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby harbans » 28 Jun 2010 00:14

Would it matter who/how/when/where created a pakistan in India when the overall outcome is same?

Ramayji, this thread limits itself to our options on how to cope with a failing Pakistan. Today Malik says Pakistan if it fell to Taliban would have turned against India next and then BD. But thats exactly what Maliks' Pakistan has done last 60 years, and i'm surprized no media/ politician has really thought or replied to him the obvious.. Just vacate your remote border posts even in freezing winters and one has a Kargil. Fact is Taliban in it's enthusiasm to take over India would make classical military mistakes and would suffer massively due to that if not get defeated. The real danger is a constituency which wants to lull India before the big inevitable surprizes. And thats where the WKK/ Indian left liberal types will be playing a big role facilitating. Thats why in an earlier post i had alluded to trying here to understand the WKK/ Indian left liberal better. Whats is it with an IIT/ IIM educated Jairam Ramesh who speaks against his own country from Chinese soil?

Another difference is if we do buy time for our liberal/ WKK types to understand doctrine and stop appeasement and sher shairayee at the country's expense. Ultimately obviously common sense should dictate that doctrine has to be tackled to eliminate the scrouge of terror and Ghazwa Hind.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21089
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby Prem » 28 Jun 2010 00:36

Till we are mentally ready to silence Poaki Croaking forever we must have fingers in every Pie , Liberal, Conservative, Talibanis, Shias, Sunnis , Sindhi, Balochi etc. Learn from Massa and play the game having stakes in ever possible group to come up with desired outcome.

Brad Goodman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2368
Joined: 01 Apr 2010 17:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 21, 20

Postby Brad Goodman » 28 Jun 2010 03:54

satyam wrote:


Why do Paki lie so much ? :x

Here is a news from neutral source.

UK to increase aid for Pakistan to 665 million pounds: Hague

http://www.irna.ir/En/View/FullStory/?N ... Language=3

There is a difference between aid and invest.


Thats called investing in terrorism. UK is aware of Returns over Investments in paki lands from partition to importing pakis to 7/7 they have invested and reaped dividends from it.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options

Postby shiv » 28 Jun 2010 06:23

Dhiman wrote: Recently some Pakistani idiot clarified the following to me: TSP's support of terrorists is worth it for the sole purpose that it is a good way to keep their favorite jihadist complaints (i.e, Kashmir, etc) on India's burner otherwise India would never bother to "resolve" Kashmir (i.e Kashmir will never come under Islamic rule either under Pakistan or independently).


There are two things that this idiot does not realise. Only a few Pakis are beginning to understand because it is quite complex. Most Indians do not seem to see this either But I will try and simplify it

1) He is cooking up a rationale for supporting terror and not asking if that terror is actually achieving what he claims it will achieve. Terror against India has been cheaper than hot wars but demands that Pakistanis be trained in their hundreds and thousand to bear arms, of whom some get selected as terrorists to go across the LoC. This exercise requires funding which is collected as zakat from lakhs and lakhs of Pakis like your idiot who are told that a great thing is going on.

But what has happened is that thousands of Pakis are trained to cross the LoC and thousands get shot and Kashmir comes no closer. In the meantime the people who started the terror training work 20-25 years ago are now men in their 40s and 50s and have seen thousands of their men and even relatives dying with Kashmir not coming any closer. These old me are now political leaders in their own right heading organizations like the LeT. They have no reason to take orders from the Paki army which has not actually fought and has people rising up in ranks by promotion. So Hafiz Saeed will not take any orders from some colonel or brigadier who was a mere army recruit when Saeed himself was already fighting.

So Pakistan is splitting up into multiple centers of power. "Power" ultimately translates into how I can make you listen to me and that means men with guns under my command. For any government anywhere in the world and any time in world history to survive - that government has to be the only one with the maximum "men with guns" power. This is called "monopoly on coercive power" or "monopoly on violence". If the government does not have a monopoly on violence then its power gets challenged and restricted. The Pakistani army has voluntarily handed power to multiple Islamist groups

2) Every "nation" consist of people. People consist of men, women and children. Mothers fathers, brothers, sisters, babies, "love ones" and not Orcs. After 50 years a nation remains a nation because all the people who became old and died were replaced by new people who were born and grew up. Land, food, education and jobs are essential requirements for the people of any nation to survive. If there are more people than the land can emloy then you have a great population for using in jihad. But when the population becomes even larger you have so many people that you cannot pay them all for jihad and cannot make them all go an kill themselves at the LoC. At that time a few people will organise and start attacking you because they start feeling that you are a liar for telling them that India will soon be defeated. This adds to the fissioning of society.

These are evolving problems in Pakistan. Even India can become this way in 20 -30 years if we are not careful (as we have been). The percentages of unemployed and poor we have are huge and not that much better than Pakistan. Unless we Indians understand this we will neither be able to manage Pakistan nor manage ourselves.

I might later cross post a post i made on a Paki site if I can find it - it was deleted and i don't know if I have a backup copy.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pranav » 28 Jun 2010 06:52

The land belonging to the Munafiq elites must be redistributed amongst the Pious multitudes, especially in Pakjab. Those amongst the elites that cooperate should be promised various goodies when the new order emerges.

Gagan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11195
Joined: 16 Apr 2008 22:25

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Gagan » 28 Jun 2010 09:01

Shiv garu,
You need to archive your posts somewhere. Either put it in a blog.
I think a question and answer (Nay: opinion / suggestion) type format will be nice.

But these thousands of posts need better archiving than currently.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pratyush » 28 Jun 2010 10:12

Shiv, I am in complete agreement with you.

I would stll like to say, that, we support an increase in talibanisation of Pakistan. I also believe that it will not lead to any increase in the Islamic voilence against India. I say say it because the more pure will spend a lot of time trying to deal with the less pure. The more the Pure ones spend their time and energy trying to deal with the less pure in TSP. The better it is for us SDREs.

Moreover, the lack of enthusiasm for the modern education for women, in that land will create an acute shortage of health workers for women & children, leading to an increase in MMR and IMR. This in turn will act as a break on the growth in population.

Add to this the chronic mismanagement of economy. The ability to threaten Indian with seriously will diminish considerably

In light of the above, what are the options for India?

Well the MMS approach however weak kneed for us Jingos is the best approach which we can take at the moment. The reason why I support it is that it keeps us focused on improving the economy of India. The more developed the economy, the greater the resources that can be devoted towards the social development of the country. Which will further strengthen the social fabric of the nation.

IOW, hold the line, and do not flinch and deviate from the current path. We can take the pain which is being inflected by Pakistan indefinitely.

JMT.

PS;- Shiv i a agree with Gagan, that, you start archiving your posts online for us to have acess to your pearls of wisdom. :)
Last edited by Pratyush on 28 Jun 2010 10:17, edited 1 time in total.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pratyush » 28 Jun 2010 10:15

Pranav wrote:The land belonging to the Munafiq elites must be redistributed amongst the Pious multitudes, especially in Pakjab. Those amongst the elites that cooperate should be promised various goodies when the new order emerges.


But, hasnt any land reform been declared un islamic by the mad mullah brigade.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pranav » 28 Jun 2010 11:57

Pratyush wrote:
Pranav wrote:The land belonging to the Munafiq elites must be redistributed amongst the Pious multitudes, especially in Pakjab. Those amongst the elites that cooperate should be promised various goodies when the new order emerges.


But, hasnt any land reform been declared un islamic by the mad mullah brigade.


Those Mullahs were agents of the Munafiqs and Yehudis. In a true Islamic republic, the land is always owned by the Pious.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Sanku » 28 Jun 2010 15:04

We can not bring down the number of Pakistani's by cruel act, however if natural forces, such as poverty lack of fertile land, low international help gradually turn it into a Somalia with a low life expectancy, surely no one can blame us?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Singha » 28 Jun 2010 15:13

looking at spending patterns, orders and inductions of military eqpt into our armed forces, it seems our budgets and plans and internal capabilities/external deals have finally caught up with the GDP growth. we are laying in a astonishing amt and quality of mil hardware and software if one looks at it from a outsider pov (forgetting our BR tendency to see the glass as half full).

except for 155mm cannons, I cannot think of one area where our capabilities are not receiving massive boosts starting from small arms upto to satellites and icbms and ssns.

the paki baksheesh doesnt have a hope in hell of matching our multi-spectral building. a few H&D F-solah and ereyie doesnt mask vast gaps and weaknesses in their spectrum just as the white pele couldnt save the england back 4 from destruction.

pakistan if it ever dares to enter a stand up fight with us will be totalled conventionally.

so I think our projections and plans have to account for PRC lending a helping hand at multiple levels of escalation or ignore the pakis altogether and just plan for PRC.

I wouldnt want to be complacent or smug about it , but if current world economic trends continue we will truly be a major world level economic and military power in just 15 yrs - well within our expected lifetimes inshallah. the increased rate of decay of certain peer competitors is going to raise us relatively by 25 yrs quicker.

EU arms cos will for one be desperate to strike deals favourable to us - while their govts might order 30 items, we would order 300. they simply cannot bank on massive EU orders going fwd I feel. could open chances for us to buy friendly stakes in cos like mtu, hispano suiza, alenia et al in due course with approval from their parent govts.

I already note the fawning ads placed by foreign tourist bereaus inviting the indian tourist money. our degree of gora-ness is
going to be progressively upgraded by the real goras until we become honorary goras like the japanese. cultural history will be revised to find some common ground with the greco-roman civilizations and throw us a few inventions and discoveries made by the good rishis and scholars of yore.

change is in the air...

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Singha » 28 Jun 2010 15:24

imo pakistan is a economic failure no matter how much $$ is thrown into it. they simply cannot manage their economy efficiently or even semi-efficiently. increased water shortages and population pressure is eating them alive.

they have three choices
[a] become a US colony and do the dirty work (involves killing a lot of faithfool)
[b] become a chinese colony and do the dirty work (involves killing a lot of faithfool)
[c] remain independent and become the next afghanistan (involves everyone killing everyone)

there is no 4th more "positive" outcome.

in all cases, we have to lay stress on border management and weakening their economy with targeted subsidies to our domestic competitors etc.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4223
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 Jun 2010 15:48

Oh yes but the fourth option is there for them, that mms' soft border or making the borders irrelevent. Using this approach they can again flood India with their 3 times more expanding population. :x

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pratyush » 28 Jun 2010 16:00

Pranav wrote:
Those Mullahs were agents of the Munafiqs and Yehudis. In a true Islamic republic, the land is always owned by the Pious.


If Zimbave is the preceedent then I fully agree with you.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pratyush » 28 Jun 2010 16:02

Sanku wrote:We can not bring down the number of Pakistani's by cruel act, however if natural forces, such as poverty lack of fertile land, low international help gradually turn it into a Somalia with a low life expectancy, surely no one can blame us?



Which is why, I am suggesting that we allow and actively encourage the Talibinisation of the country.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pranav » 28 Jun 2010 17:00

Pratyush wrote:
Pranav wrote:
Those Mullahs were agents of the Munafiqs and Yehudis. In a true Islamic republic, the land is always owned by the Pious.


If Zimbave is the preceedent then I fully agree with you.


The whites of Zimbabwe were at least productive farmers, which is more than what one can say abut feudal Munafiqs.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby shiv » 28 Jun 2010 17:16

cross post


I loved the article.

I understand that these are the opinions of one Paki air marshal, but it is precioussss.

He says that India wants minerals from Afghanistan and that Pakistan should set itself up for making money as a middleman

About terror he says that Pakistan should just "find a way around Indian barbs."

As for trade he says yes and India should invest in Pakistan

He wants peace "for that will deliver Pakistan of this unending need to match India’s growing military prowess — tank for tank, plane for plane, making minimum credible deterrence, both conventional and nuclear, actually possible"

He wants Kashmir.

He says water dispute will hold no water and is a Paki self goal.

The two most significant things I could see in the article are that he does not want to see the stoppage of terror against India, but he is concerned about how much Pakistan has to do to keep up its defences.

The way ahead for India is obvious from this article... overwhelming military dominance and no investment until terror is dead.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8117
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pratyush » 28 Jun 2010 20:13

Pranav wrote:
The whites of Zimbabwe were at least productive farmers, which is more than what one can say abut feudal Munafiqs.




My thoughts may seem a bit conflicted at first, Land reforms have been declared Un-Islamic by the mullahs. Which means that Islam cannot be the force to rescue the mango Abdul i.e He will need answers from the modern world. At least economically. However, the Talib may not agree with this.

Alternatively, the Talibiban may launch a vast land reform movement. Using creative reinterpretation of Islam. Creating forced re-distribution of land which in turn will create a situation, wherein, a wast majority of Pakistanis will acquire land but will lack the resources to practice profitable agriculture. Resulting in famines and starvation in Pakistan. As even a 10% reduction in food grain output will result in the poorest 5 to 10% of the Pakistanis dieing of Starvation.

Leading to a vast unrest in LOP

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pranav » 28 Jun 2010 22:09

Pratyush wrote:Land reforms have been declared Un-Islamic by the mullahs.


There is always scope for more and more purity and piousness. When one reaches a supreme state of piety, one realizes that redistribution of land is indeed Halal.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby RamaY » 29 Jun 2010 07:06

Sanku wrote:We can not bring down the number of Pakistani's by cruel act, however if natural forces, such as poverty lack of fertile land, low international help gradually turn it into a Somalia with a low life expectancy, surely no one can blame us?


I disagree Sanku-ji. You are again advocating yindoo non-action.

I recommend India does what Pakistan wants. Pakistan is established as the Islamic Heaven in this world. India should support Pakistan turn into purest-islamic-land (whatever that means).

Apparently Allah created Jennat for all Pakis, where consumption of alcohol, prostitution and so on are allowed. So India should send as many pious pakis as possible to Jennat...

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Altair » 29 Jun 2010 07:18

RamaY wrote:I recommend India does what Pakistan wants. Pakistan is established as the Islamic Heaven in this world. India should support Pakistan turn into purest-islamic-land (whatever that means)


Do you want want to live in a neighborhood which stinks? Do you like people referring to your house as "the house adjacent to the stinky dumpster"? No matter how much cool and rich your house looks like,it will still be referred as such.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23755
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby SSridhar » 29 Jun 2010 07:40

RamaY wrote:
Sanku wrote:We can not bring down the number of Pakistani's by cruel act, however if natural forces, such as poverty lack of fertile land, low international help gradually turn it into a Somalia with a low life expectancy, surely no one can blame us?


I disagree Sanku-ji.

I recommend India does what Pakistan wants. Pakistan is established as the Islamic Heaven in this world. India should support Pakistan turn into purest-islamic-land (whatever that means).

RamaY & Sanku, both must be done. Why only one approach ? Let us fire on all cylinders. But, that could be done only after realization dawns on powers-that-be that Pakistan is our mortal enemy and Pakistan has absolutely no intention of developing friendly relationship with us and that we are on our own to slay this monster. We know that here on this forum perhaps, but is not otherwise widely known in India.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Pranav » 29 Jun 2010 08:31

All Kayani's Men
by Anatol Lieven

Anatol Lieven, a senior editor at The National Interest, is a professor in the War Studies Department of King's College London and a senior fellow of the New America Foundation in Washington, DC. He is author of America Right or Wrong: An Anatomy of American Nationalism (Oxford University Press, 2004). His next book, Pakistan: A Hard Country, is to be published in 2011.


There is an understanding in Washington that while short-term calculations demand some kind of success in Afghanistan, in the longer run, Pakistan, with its vastly greater size, huge army, nuclear weapons and large diaspora, is a much more important country, and a much greater threat should it in fact succumb to its inner demons. The collapse of Pakistan would so vastly increase the power of Islamist extremism as to constitute a strategic defeat in the "war on terror."...

The Pakistani military is crucial to preventing such a disaster because it is the only state institution that works as it is officially meant to. This means, however, that it also repeatedly does something that it is not meant to-namely, overthrow what in Pakistan is called "democracy" and seize control of the government. The military has therefore been seen as extremely bad for Pakistan's progress, at least if that progress is to be defined in standard Western terms.

Yet, it has also always been true that without a strong military, Pakistan would probably have long since disintegrated. That is truer than ever today, as the country faces the powerful insurgency of the Pakistani Taliban and their allies. That threat makes the unity and discipline of the army of paramount importance to Pakistan and the world-all the more so because the deep dislike of U.S. strategy among the vast majority of Pakistanis has made even the limited alliance between the Pakistani military and the United States extremely unpopular in general society and among many soldiers. Those soldiers' superiors fully understand the importance of this alliance to Pakistan and the disastrous consequences for the country if it were to collapse.

The Pakistani army is a highly disciplined and professional institution, and the soldiers will continue to obey their generals' orders. Given their basic feelings, however, it would be unwise to push the infantrymen too far. One way of doing this would be to further extend the U.S. drone campaign by expanding it from the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) to Baluchistan. Much more disastrous would be any resumption of U.S. ground raids into Pakistani territory, such as occurred briefly in the summer of 2008.


AS THE military has become more egalitarian, the less-secular have filled its ranks. This social change in the officer corps over the decades has caused many in the West to fear that the army is becoming "Islamized," leading to the danger that the institution as a whole might support Islamist revolution, particularly as the civilian government falters. More dangerously, there might be a mutiny by Islamist junior officers against the high command. These dangers do exist, but in my view, the absolutely key point is that only a direct attack on Pakistan by the United States could bring them to fruition.

It is obviously true that as the officer corps becomes lower-middle class, so its members become less Westernized and more religious-after all, the vast majority of Pakistan's population is conservative Muslim. However, it is made up of many different kinds of orthodox Muslim, and this is also true of the officer corps.


... AMERICAN OPERATIONS in South Asia, however, are threatening to upset this fragile balance between Islam and nationalism in the Pakistani military. The army's members can hardly avoid sharing the broader population's bitter hostility to U.S. policy. To judge by retired and serving officers, this includes the genuine conviction that either the Bush administration or Israel was responsible for 9/11. Inevitably therefore, there was deep opposition throughout the army after 2001 to American pressure to crack down on the Afghan Taliban and their Pakistani sympathizers. "We are being ordered to launch a Pakistani civil war for the sake of America," an officer told me in 2002. "Why on earth should we? Why should we commit suicide for you?"...


For in 2007-2008, the battle was beginning to cause serious problems of morale. The most dangerous single thing I heard during my visits to Pakistan in those years was that soldiers' families in villages in the NWFP and the Potwar region of the Punjab were finding it increasingly difficult to find high-status brides for their sons serving in the military because of the growing popular feeling that "the army is the slave of the Americans" and "the soldiers are killing fellow Muslims on America's orders."



... Nonetheless, if the Pakistani Taliban are increasingly unpopular, that does not make the United States any more well liked; and if Washington ever put Pakistani soldiers in a position where they felt that honor and patriotism required them to fight America, many would be willing to do so.

And we have seen this willingness before. In August and September 2008, U.S. forces entered Pakistan's tribal areas on two occasions in order to raid suspected Taliban and al-Qaeda bases. During the second incursion, Pakistani soldiers fired in the air to turn the Americans back. On September 19, 2008, General Kayani flew to meet U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen on the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, and, in the words of a senior Pakistani general, "gave him the toughest possible warning about what would happen if this were repeated."

Pakistani officers from captain to lieutenant general have told me that the entry of U.S. ground forces into Pakistan in pursuit of the Taliban and al-Qaeda is an incredibly dangerous scenario, as it would put both Pakistan-U.S. relations and the unity of the army at risk. As one retired general explained, drone attacks on Pakistani territory, though humiliating for the ordinary officers and soldiers, are not the critical issue. What would create a military overthrow takes more:

U.S. ground forces inside Pakistan are a different matter, because the soldiers can do something about them. They can fight. And if they don't fight, they will feel utterly humiliated, before their wives, mothers, children. It would be a matter of honor, which as you know is a tremendous thing in our society. These men have sworn an oath to defend Pakistani soil. So they would fight. And if the generals told them not to fight, many of them would mutiny, starting with the Frontier Corps.

The discontent of sections of India's Muslim minority (increased by ghastly incidents like the massacres of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, and encouraged by the Hindu nationalist state government) gives ample possibilities for recruitment; the sheer size of India, coupled with the incompetence of the Indian security forces, give ample targets of opportunity; and the desire to provoke an Indian attack on Pakistan gives ample motive. ...

... if the United States were perceived to back India in such a war, anti-American feelings and extremist recruitment in Pakistan would soar to new heights.

http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/sho ... e_id=18304



This article shows calculations of the western elites with respect to Pakistan. They realize that this Frankenstein has to be supported and kept oriented against India otherwise it will turn on its creators as it goes down.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Singha » 29 Jun 2010 08:53

right and if this is the strategy and national policy the US thinks is going to keep it at the top for the next 50-100 yrs, I would be really surprised.

as china "owns" more and more of Pak, it hurts them not one bit to turn the pakis on US rather than India and decrease the US presence and ability in CAR region. India is always there and cannot be chased away and PRC has a direct border with india. its the US which is bigger threat to PRC interests and will be chased and eased out in turn from the CAR and then gulf region per chinese plans.

the US has no idea what to do and in the absense of any good idea, is backing "what worked before" .

my prediction is by 2025, the chinese will be fully in control of pakistan as a colony and trade route and the US will be nowhere in pak,astan or any of the CAR states which will be developed as a jv of russia-china . china is already strongly in kazakhstan.
with iran alienated and iraq withdrawal, US will sit in the desert dust of saudi arabia and qatar and wonder how it came to pass.

good, I like it. anything which reduces the US power to meddle in asia with no danger to its heartland is good - china we can deal with directly since we are locked at the land and maritime borders.

Sanjay M
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4892
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 14:57

Re: Managing Pakistan's failure

Postby Sanjay M » 29 Jun 2010 09:49

Pranav wrote:
All Kayani's Men
by Anatol Lieven


The discontent of sections of India's Muslim minority (increased by ghastly incidents like the massacres of Muslims in Gujarat in 2002, and encouraged by the Hindu nationalist state government) gives ample possibilities for recruitment; the sheer size of India, coupled with the incompetence of the Indian security forces, give ample targets of opportunity; and the desire to provoke an Indian attack on Pakistan gives ample motive. ...

... if the United States were perceived to back India in such a war, anti-American feelings and extremist recruitment in Pakistan would soar to new heights.

http://www.worldsecuritynetwork.com/sho ... e_id=18304



This article shows calculations of the western elites with respect to Pakistan. They realize that this Frankenstein has to be supported and kept oriented against India otherwise it will turn on its creators as it goes down.



Anatol Lieven = extremely Atlanticist = extremely biased

This is a guy who insists that Russia provoked war with Georgia. He's just throwing up a word salad.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: komal, Manish_Sharma, Vips and 130 guests