Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby surinder » 12 Sep 2010 20:04

shiv wrote: In short we need to have overwhelming force in every theater. It is possible - ... Taking PoK and leaving Pakistan intact is like Nehru stopping the war in 1949 at the LoC when Paki forces were already in retreat and disarray.

What we should aim for is not the PoK consolation prize and hope that what survives of Pakistan will be a good boy. We need to settle the Pakistan issue in the long term. If we are going to fight a war to do that - better to fight one that does the whole job. Not a half job.


A time must come when we have to decide what to do w.r.t. TSP. No nation can hope to live happily and freely and exert a role in the international arena if they are boxed in physically in their own neighborhood. Stategists call this "Tyranny of the neighborhood". Evey nation has to first break that tyranny before it can step out. Britain achieved this by getting a nation that was an island from God almighty. They they made sure that Continental Europe never is united or powerful to box it in. USA first slowly worked its way out the "neighborhood", slowly and steadily make others exit the scene before it could expand out. Cuba, was the last threat by a foreign hostile power to barge into the neighborhood, and it was resisted by the full might of the country.

PRC, has been slowly and steadily trying to get out of the neighborhood. It's primary boxing in from the East, and US doing a lot of that boxing in. But it has slowly and steadily making inroads into clearing it. The latest move was the announcement of that missile to destroy air-craft carriers, which is a direct hit at curtailing US power in the region.

India since 1947 has already been firmly boxed in the subcontinent by TSP. 1971 was a major attempt to break it, a very successful one, if at that. But India has not been able to manage to keep that momentum. Then PRC has actively filled in, wherever TSP has weakened.

So, I totally aggree with your point that simply taking POK cannot be the end goal. These "legal" arguments are really pseudo arguments. Which law? Whose courts?

Nations need to decide how to break the encirclement. If the nation is strong, they go for the main prime mover to break his back. If the nation is relatively less strong, it should punish the smaller nations first so that collaborations are not easily obtained. In that regard, Sri Lanka, BD, Burma, Nepal must be dragged through gravel for offering any support to PRC. Once assured of that, we must take down TSP. With that, we are ready to face the only real competitor in the sub-continent, the PRC. It is likely that by the time we take down TSP, PRC would conclude game over.

But whatever ratio of attack is required, none of these ratios should be unattainable. India is 7x the size of TSP. So all things equal, we should at least be able to put 7:1 advantage on the ground. That should be more than enough to get us Pakjab, Sindh plains easily. When that is done, then we would already be at the 10:1 ratio and POK should fall too.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Manishw » 12 Sep 2010 22:01

surinder wrote:
Nations need to decide how to break the encirclement. If the nation is strong, they go for the main prime mover to break his back. If the nation is relatively less strong, it should punish the smaller nations first so that collaborations are not easily obtained. In that regard, Sri Lanka, BD, Burma, Nepal must be dragged through gravel for offering any support to PRC. Once assured of that, we must take down TSP. With that, we are ready to face the only real competitor in the sub-continent, the PRC. It is likely that by the time we take down TSP, PRC would conclude game over.


Good Point.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 12 Sep 2010 22:10

shiv wrote:

<SNIP>

Why have I created this oddball image. It is to show that the real country from where Pakistan can be "invaded" lies far South of POK. The country up north is mountainous and unsuitable for massive progress in a short while. All the "tank country" lies South in the areas where tank battles have been fought. And Pakistan has fought hard in these areas.

"Taking POK" without going through Pakistan does not make military sense.


Shiv, thank you posting that image. I hope people realize that there is more than one way to skin the cat.

Just for reference - I recently bought the book by Shuja Nawaj (Crossed Sowrd). It gives the details of the interview which the author conducted with BB. And they spoke about Kargil and how a similar plan was put forth to her by Musharraf (Who was the DGMO during her government) about taking Srinagar. While giving presentation (result of a war game), Musharraf (as per her) clearly said any assault would lead to them loosing Sind, loosing Punjab upto RYK but they were confident of 'planting Pakistan flag atop the J&K Assembly'..

Of course, this was in 90s and 9/11 had not happened and PA was in far bad shape compared to what it is today. But clearly shows the potential in the plains for us.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 12 Sep 2010 23:24

>> it is the Paki army that is holding those independent pieces of Pak together. Nothing else. And the US and china are paying and supporting that army.

An uncontestable truth. And we must deal with it with subtlety and skill, and a cold ruthlessness when the time presents itself. It certainly will. Of course, what seems like ruthlessness to others will seem to us like the most heartfelt humanitarianism. That, too, is how it should be.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Airavat » 13 Sep 2010 07:53


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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2010 08:05

rohitvats wrote:
Just for reference - I recently bought the book by Shuja Nawaj (Crossed Sowrd). It gives the details of the interview which the author conducted with BB. And they spoke about Kargil and how a similar plan was put forth to her by Musharraf (Who was the DGMO during her government) about taking Srinagar. While giving presentation (result of a war game), Musharraf (as per her) clearly said any assault would lead to them loosing Sind, loosing Punjab upto RYK but they were confident of 'planting Pakistan flag atop the J&K Assembly'..

Of course, this was in 90s and 9/11 had not happened and PA was in far bad shape compared to what it is today. But clearly shows the potential in the plains for us.


Rohit - doesn't it also show the potential in J&K for the Pakis?

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 13 Sep 2010 08:14

Right now bakis have better chance of occupying Kashmir valley, than India taking over PoK. India has never exploited fissures in PoK. :roll:

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2010 08:20

pgbhat wrote:Right now bakis have better chance of occupying Kashmir valley, than India taking over PoK. India has never exploited fissures in PoK. :roll:


Indiots have kept mum about shia massacres from the Zia era even though Pakistanis have admitted them. India deserves a huge huge prize (maybe a few nukes dropped on us) for utter stupidity and self delusion in handling Pakistan.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby surinder » 13 Sep 2010 09:18

India is the only country in the wold which benifits from highlighting the fact that PA handed over bases, and provides logistical support for US invasion of Afghnistan and the bombing of NWFP.

*ALL* the attacks on the A'stan & NWFP, and the logistical supply come courtesy of Pakistan. This is the unique becuase it shows pakistan complicit in (a) killing of fellow Muslims, (b) collaborating with foreigners, Westerners, Xtians, in doing the invasion, (c) complicit in bombing its own country and citizens.

India is the only country that benifits from this expose, and it has failed to highlight this and drive any mileage from this fact.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2010 09:34

surinder wrote:
India is the only country that benifits from this expose, and it has failed to highlight this and drive any mileage from this fact.


Why has India ignored this? I wonder if it is because the US is seen as benign and benevolent by Indians.

But I think India has been naive and ignorant of the US. A long long time ago - an American member of this forum who used to go by the name Greg said goodbye to this forum after expressing anguish after 9-11 that Pakistan would be re armed against India. He said that, said goodbye, left and never reappeared.

I don't think any of us understood what he meant then but now - 9 years on - the Pakistan military has had a complete makeover. The men look better armed and better dressed and the armed forces of Pakisatan have received 15 to 18 billion US dollars in aid even as we naively assumed that the US would do something positive in the region.

We all jump up and down and get our langotis in a big twist at one American media report about Chinese in PoK. That's because the Chinese are dumb. When they want to screw you they tell you openly that they intend to screw you. They do idiotic things like "stapled passports" - and other unsophisticated village bumpkin level needling.

The Americans are masters. They come in suavely - pretend like they are going to do some terrific stuff - backed by a propaganda machine that sings the praises of their war machine's achievements in blasting Shomali plain. At the end of it all the Americans firmly have everyone in the very places they want them to be. They are sitting right inside Pakistan arming the Pakistanis. They can tilt an India Pakistan conflict either way depending on whom the support and China has no chance f building any road/railways via Pakistan unless the US leaves.

And forget about India seeing any major changes in Pakistan. We are America's biggest cheerleaders. We curse Salman Khan and our own PM. But America remains blameless. American support for the Pakistan army and the Pakistan army's support of American foreign policy are the twin pillars on which the current geopolitical situation in the region rests. India does not question American actions in arming the Pak army and Pakis do not question their own army's support of the US.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby surinder » 13 Sep 2010 09:42

Shiv, the Khanate behaviour has more than anything contributed to TSP's strength. I recall after 9-11 I had naively thought that TSP is history. For a couple years it looked it was, but TSP has come out stronger than ever. Its war toys are shining and its arsenal bigger, its level of collaborations with elite Khanate army impeccably strong.

Ambassador Blackwell explained that well after 9-11, he said there are reasons that he did not think that an indian can understand why TSP is so beholden to Khan.

But at the same time we must understand that we are facing not a single nation, but a overlapping interests of many nations. TSP is not just a Khan's whore. TSP is the first port of call for anyone who wants to see India down. If I am a non-Indian, I would be an idiot to not shore up TSP. Heck, even Indians shore up TSP (and that is a bigger disgrace than overlooking Khanate behaviour, incidently).

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby abhischekcc » 13 Sep 2010 10:46

shiv wrote:
pgbhat wrote:Right now bakis have better chance of occupying Kashmir valley, than India taking over PoK. India has never exploited fissures in PoK. :roll:


Indiots have kept mum about shia massacres from the Zia era even though Pakistanis have admitted them. India deserves a huge huge prize (maybe a few nukes dropped on us) for utter stupidity and self delusion in handling Pakistan.


But that is secularism for you.

Anti national behaviour + imbecility == secularism

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2010 11:10

abhischekcc wrote:
But that is secularism for you.

Anti national behaviour + imbecility == secularism


It's funny that India bought into the idea that secularism in India would somehow make Pakistan better. I mean if you look at voodoo dolls - the witch doctor makes a doll in the image of some person and then proceeds to torture the doll and the real person in question is supposed to feel all that is happening to the doll. Have Indian policy makers down the decades expected that if somehow tippy-toed around Islamic extremism in Pakistan by not mentioning it in India and not upsetting Indian Muslims - Pakis would mysteriously become sensible.

I mean, it just occurs to me that I have been accusing the Chinese of being rustic bunglers in international relations - but India has been no better with regard to Pakistan. How stupid has my nation been.

We have misread, miscalculated and misinterpreted everything from Pakistan and assumed that they will somehow become better. Sorry this is OT. OK if they want to talk to Pakis let them talk - but let Indians tell the truth as we see it and then see what the Pakis want to talk. We don't want to tell it like it is and we expect that Pakis will change. How stupid are we.

Here we are - less than 2 years away from 26/11 an event in which one Pakistani handler was exhorting one of the Mumbai killers "Yeh Islam aur kufr da mamla hai" or some such thing meaning that killing civilians in Mumbai was the an Islam versus kafir battle" and we have a Paki and an Indian defending Pakistanis on that issue. And same ol sae ol - we have a terror alert for Mumbai again...

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Sep 2010 13:25

shiv, there is a piskological angle here (let me try an analogy)
as a kid, i was brought up to believe that the world is a nice place and people are nice
its only later that i realised that this is not always the case, and that it is entirely possible to find oneself in a crocodile pit for much of one's time (by which time i lost several fingers)
its the same i think with the indian external relation managers (clearly everyone dealing with internal matters is well aware of the crocodile pit), but when it comes to the outside world, we assume that its a nice place and everyone means well and wants to be nice and give us chocolate and kisses
it always comes as a bitter dissapointment to us to find that everyone else is trying to steal our chocolate and lift up our lungis from the back
the americans on the other hand agree that the world is meant to be a nice place, but one doesnt get chocolate unless one is willing to punch little billy on the nose and take it from him if he doesnt share it immediately
the paquis on the other hand grow up assuming "lift his lungi before he lifts yours" and "a little lungi lifting is a small price to pay to take all of billy's chocolate"

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby abhischekcc » 13 Sep 2010 13:44

Doctor saheb,

That example of voodoo dolls to explain Indian FP towards pak is brilliant. It is great for piskological warfare.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 13 Sep 2010 14:22

shiv wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Just for reference - I recently bought the book by Shuja Nawaj (Crossed Sowrd). It gives the details of the interview which the author conducted with BB. And they spoke about Kargil and how a similar plan was put forth to her by Musharraf (Who was the DGMO during her government) about taking Srinagar. While giving presentation (result of a war game), Musharraf (as per her) clearly said any assault would lead to them loosing Sind, loosing Punjab upto RYK but they were confident of 'planting Pakistan flag atop the J&K Assembly'..

Of course, this was in 90s and 9/11 had not happened and PA was in far bad shape compared to what it is today. But clearly shows the potential in the plains for us.


Rohit - doesn't it also show the potential in J&K for the Pakis?


Shiv, one needs to remember that the potential for PA in Kashmir can come largely from the tanzeems and OGW+Sleeper Cells. As far as military matters are concerned, nothing to choose between the two - though we do have very large number of troops and can acheive 2:1 ratio (not the entire sector) by inducting troops from outside - which we do. Plus, the whole gamut of RR (equivalent to 5 Light Divisions) and CPO to take care of Line of Communications and vital assets. The presentation by Musharraf was in 90s. PA is not the same nor are we the same in Valley. That is why the caveat for Sind and RYK applies to us today as tanzeem card does to PA.

Let the two new MDs for Northern Sector come online in couple of years and IA will not even need to induct troops from outside into Valley in any future conflict. It will be able to concentrate overall 3:1 Ratio at any location and time against PA.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Kanson » 13 Sep 2010 19:03

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/09/opini ... tan&st=cse


Selig S. Harrison responds

Western and regional intelligence sources say that there has been an influx of construction, engineering and communication units of the People’s Liberation Army into Gilgit-Baltistan, under the command of the Xinjiang military district, totaling at least 7,000 military personnel. This is confirmed by local political groups opposed to both Pakistani military rule and to the Chinese influx whose credibility is verified by Pakistani journalists, such as the Balawaristan National Front, the Gilgit-Baltistan Democratic Alliance, the All-Party National Alliance and the Gilgit-Baltistan Thinkers Forum.

In addition, several thousand P.L.A. troops are said to be stationed in the Khunjerab Pass on the Xinjiang border to protect Karakoram Highway construction crews, with ready access to Gilgit-Baltistan.

True, the Chinese in Gilgit-Baltistan are not combat soldiers, and their work on flood relief and economic development has positive benefits. But the impact of such a large foreign presence in a thinly populated, undeveloped region has been profound. With large amounts of money to dispense for subcontracts and support services, P.L.A. officers have become powerful, striking alliances with Pakistan-sponsored local functionaries, Pakistani bureaucrats and Pakistani businessmen who are profiting from more than 200 mining and other Chinese-run projects.

To local political activists, this adds up to a creeping process of de facto Chinese control over a region where Islamabad claims nominal authority but lacks the infrastructure to exercise it.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby surinder » 13 Sep 2010 19:52

Shiv, while you castigate Indiots for not understanding the role of Khan (right so, IMHO), but getting pricked by PRC. It is like castigating a utterly failed, useless, idiotic student for not answering the Ph.D.-level question, when he cannot even answer the class 8ths problem. This is not a student that gets other things, but missed one subject; this is a student that has failed across the spectrum.

Americans are far away, their policies have certain sophistication and subtlety to them. But British ruled in India for 200 years, lived right next door to Indians and we did not understand them. For 60 years TSP has played every dirty game that there is, they speak the same language as us, but we still do not get them. Every Indiot leader claims to do X in goodwill, then comes crying saying that he has been back-stabbed. Aren't we getting back-stabbed since the time of Prithvi Raj Chauhan? What is so great about getting stabbed in the back that Indian leaders are so fond of getting it.

ROP has been in India for 1000 years, and played its gruesome drama, but after one thousand years, we still do not understand ROP, nor do we really know what to do with ROP. I mean, of all the nations that should understand ROP fully and completely, should it not be India?

What is the big deeal that it did not "get" what the Khan is doing?

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 13 Sep 2010 19:59

^^^Great post surinder. Which is way, Darwin's law mandates mass Darwin awards for the Indiots only. Big deal I say, we will all die one day, what's the point getting worked up over it, eh? /snark.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby RamaY » 13 Sep 2010 21:20

I put together possible strings India can pull to influence the developments in POK. All references are from Indian perspective only...

Image

If I were blah..blah.. series

1. Have the Indian Foreign Sec make a public statement
- Appraise Indian public on the perfidy of Pakistan, China. Make subtle references to the world bodies and powers that are violating status-quo.
- Make an unambiguous statement about PRC's illegitimate actions. Clearly indicate that it will have continental and long-term political ramifications. J&K is a disputed area. PRC cannot make one-sided treaties (refer the area Pak conceded before) and assume that all will be alright. Remind previous PRC statements about J&K being a disputed area and a bi-lateral issues between India and Pakistan.
- Make an unambiguous statement about Pakistan's perfidy. If Pakistan thinks it can take one-sided actions, then it would nullify all the events happened after 1947 and India would have to seriously think about getting out of all the treaties that it made with Pakistan.
- Make an unambiguous statement on UN's ineptitude and make it clear that India would be forced to trigger "national interest" clause.

2. Make visible preparedness for forced recapturing of POK

3. Create a national committee (consisting of opposition parties) to recommend action plan on PRC's actions. Identify a two member committee (from this national committee) to initiate a Track-2 diplomacy with PRC on larger geopolitical positioning and alliance.

4. Create a two member committee (one from UPA and one from NDA) to initiate a diplomatic channel with USA to discuss on Indian geopolitical ambitions and posturing.

5. Create a media campaign on J&K to meet the needs of disparate audience
- Indian public
- Paki public
- JK Public
- Hurriat
- ME
- Western public & Govts
- Asian Govts
- CAR/Russia Govts

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2010 21:24

Can we stop the self-loathing here please? There are numerous whine threads to that in.
Thank you, ramana

Surinder don't be led astray from the thread topic.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2010 22:10

RajeshA, The thread is moinv too fast. To bolster your arguement that PRC wants POK to breakout of the Pacific stranglehold here is my post on third page:

Muppalla there was Dutch scholar Willem van Kemenade who was writing a book who said that PRC being boxed in the Pacific coast by US naval supremacy is trying to seek sea ports to the west via the POK area. And the corollary was they were not going to allow the TSP to nuke POk! We need to take that into account in our plans.
.........

http://www.willemvk.org/books.php

Download the detente pdf.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 13 Sep 2010 22:25

ramana garu,

thanks for the link! I will read the book.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 13 Sep 2010 23:59

me too..me too...danke!!!

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Venkarl » 14 Sep 2010 00:08

ramana wrote:RajeshA, The thread is moinv too fast. To bolster your arguement that PRC wants POK to breakout of the Pacific stranglehold here is my post on third page:

Muppalla there was Dutch scholar Willem van Kemenade who was writing a book who said that PRC being boxed in the Pacific coast by US naval supremacy is trying to seek sea ports to the west via the POK area. And the corollary was they were not going to allow the TSP to nuke POk! We need to take that into account in our plans.
.........

http://www.willemvk.org/books.php

Download the detente pdf.


read few pages..very interesting...danke shon...

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Sep 2010 00:16

Meanwhile R. Prasanan, writes in The Week:

Dragon's Teeth

These moves, India expects, would make a Chinese bid on Ladakh from Aksai Chin in the east almost impossible. So the Chinese are opening another front on the west—from Gilgit-Baltistan in Pakistan-held northern areas.
What next, Delhi?


The analogy of Dragon's Teeth is to that in Greek mythology of Jason and the argonauts. The dragon's teeth spout armed soldiers where they are sown.

If his above report is correct assessment, than it means India needs to increase the troop presence in J&K. Withdrawing AFSPA etc are non-starters.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Venkarl » 14 Sep 2010 00:45

<clapping>..very nice write up by Prasanan...seemed like Tom Clancy's stint..

OT here...I have to admit that this Kashmir violence will help India build up its troops presence in the valley as a reinforcement...AFSPA will never go...BJP will tear chidu's lungi if that happens.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby suryag » 14 Sep 2010 00:53

nice read, indian media should give more coverage to these views. May be its a long ask but
Pakistan, China must leave Gilgit-Baltistan

The chinese and pakis have seriously been making too many dubious moves when it comes to our territory. Reminds me of a telugu quote"sommu okkadidhi sokku inkokkadidhi"

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Muppalla » 14 Sep 2010 00:58

suryag wrote:nice read, indian media should give more coverage to these views. May be its a long ask but
Pakistan, China must leave Gilgit-Baltistan

The chinese and pakis have seriously been making too many dubious moves when it comes to our territory. Reminds me of a telugu quote"sommu okkadidhi sokku inkokkadidhi"


Good proverb. We did a real mistake of not giving couple of RS and LS nominated members from POK when they requested us.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 14 Sep 2010 01:09

ramana wrote:Meanwhile R. Prasanan, writes in The Week:

<SNIP>

If his above report is correct assessment, than it means India needs to increase the troop presence in J&K. Withdrawing AFSPA etc are non-starters.


Finally, some plain speaking and interesting nuggets of information. And lot of hyperbole.

From the article:

China has also been enhancing its strike power in Tibet. The Indian Army believes that the PLA can move one full mechanised infantry division into Tibet in 48 hours in an emergency, and about 10 divisions in one month for a permanent base. More worryingly, in its largest ever tactical exercises (code-named Stride) last year, the PLA demonstrated awesome airlift capability. As per the Indian Army’s assessment, China today can airdrop an infantry brigade of 3,000-plus in one airlift and an entire infantry division of about 15,000 troops and their equipment in a single operation.


So, please put the worry of Chinese suddenly emerging from shadows and from behind rocks to overwhelm the IA. I will even take 48hours notice for Mechanized Division with a pinch of salt. To begin with, what is the definition of 'into Tibet' here? And from where? We're talking here about hundereds of tanks and APC and mobile and towed artillery. Unless, these troops are sitting in heart of tibet and on constant standy and at some comfortable distance (that is not too long) from their final deployment locations, those 48hours is an absurd figure. Case in point - look at the locations of PA Strike Elements, distance from border, wonderful lines of communication, short distance from where to recall troops and time to mobilize.

And as for 10 Divisions in a month into Tibet - we can match that. And which also means that these will be followed very closely. You cannot hide 10 Divisions in Tibet. But what about the acclimatization? And one assumes that there are forward dumps for 10 Division worth of troops. POL+rations+stores. Good good. Nice targets for the IAF and IA missiles.

As for the airlift, what is the timeframe of dropping a Division worth of Paratroopers? A brigade worth of drop is still a good capability, though. Something we lack.

In addition, China is also learnt to have raised a rapid deployment force (called Emergency-Resolving Mobile Combat Force) which can induct four divisions on any stretch of its frontier (or enemy territory) on a day’s notice.


Only djinn power or Han equivalent can do this feat. Four Divisions in a day anywhere? Sure, moon is made of green cheese.

Plus, the PLA’s logistics management has been tuned in such a way as to gain a capability to move 20 to 25 divisions over two months. Most of these capabilities were proven in Stride-2009 in which 50,000 troops were moved across 1,600km by road, rail and air from the military districts of Shenyang, Lanzhou, Jinan and Guangzhou.


How does transporting 50K men same as transporting 250K men and material? And there were reports of major snags in this very exercise. Will dig up the link.

However, what alarmed India was the simultaneous building of advance infrastructure in Tibet so that nearly 25 divisions could be moved into Tibet at short notice.


Contradicts himself.

The Dimapur Corps (3 Corps), which has several mountain divisions under it, has been completely pulled out of counter-insurgency operations in the northeast and converted into a full-fledged offensive corps on the China border. The corps has also been given awesome firepower. The Rangia-based 2 Mountain Division has been pulled out from the Tezpur Corps (4 Corps) and attached to the offensive Dimapur Corps. The corps has also been promised, in an emergency, the services of 41 Division, which is still under the Tezpur Corps. And crowning all the moves is a recent accretion: two new mountain divisions—numbered 41 and 56—have been quietly raised and given to the Dimapur Corps.


He has mixed up the numbers completely.

Earlier IV Corps had 21/5/2 Mountain Divisions. III Corps had only 57 Mountain Division.

Post new raisings and realignment of AOR, IV Corps has 21/5/55(new) Mountain Division. III Corps has 2/56(new)/57 Mountain Division. XXXIII in Sikkim has 17/20/27 Mountain Divisions. 23rd ID based in Ranchi should be considered as given in case of conflict. That is 10 Mountain/Infantry Divisions. Plus, the news about Mountain Strike HQ for NE - this will add at least another two more Divisions. IMO, III Corps is more for defence of Eastern AP and Burma border.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Sep 2010 02:12

Could the stone-pelters have PRC support by any means? Looking at them raging about k oran burning in US?

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 14 Sep 2010 02:17

ramana wrote:Could the stone-pelters have PRC support by any means? Looking at them raging about k oran burning in US?


They would however not show their hand openly. They are probably pulling the strings through Rawalpindi.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Sep 2010 02:24

But throwing stones at acts in US will cause displeasure in US. Wont the Hurriats funding be cut off? Can someone analyze the envoy's speech to discern any changes?

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby krisna » 14 Sep 2010 02:41

^^^^
unlikely h..rats funding will be cut off.
the book burning event is a one off event. Any faithfool will gladly meet his 72 for this. easy to instigate and difficult to prevent in the abduls. it is a certain no go areas of cooperation. :twisted:

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Anujan » 14 Sep 2010 02:49

ramana wrote:But throwing stones at acts in US will cause displeasure in US. Wont the Hurriats funding be cut off? Can someone analyze the envoy's speech to discern any changes?


The moment someone makes a demand of augmenting autonomy by moving "foreign policy" into state subject of JK, that is when the red line would have been crossed. Someone is trying to replicate the Nepal model here.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 14 Sep 2010 03:30

ramana wrote:But throwing stones at acts in US will cause displeasure in US.


Till now, the Kashmir issue has received only limited attention by Al Qaeda and Allied Movements (AQAM). Probably a conscious effort is being made to align the 'Kashmiri Azaadi' movement to Global Jihad. Pakistan could have thought, that that is the only way, Pakistan can get more help from other Muslim nations.

An effort is being made to fuse the two together - Global Islamism and Pakistani Nationalism. Another aspect is that Pakistan has been only been able in a very limited way to recruit Indian Muslims for terrorism in India. Kashmiri Muslims are a group, over which Pakistan has a larger influence, and considering that they live within the borders of India, it would be far easier to use them for terrorism within India than infiltrating Pakjabis for the cause. Mumbai 26/11 received a lot of attention and the culpability reached the doors of Pakistan. This time Pakistanis are looking for terrorism in India where KMs are held responsible.

Moreover, Kashmiri Nationalism was found to be wanting as a call - the Azaadi slogan seemed to have lost its strength. So it was deemed important that KMs are totally radicalized and Wahhabized so that they can be better used.

PRC may or may not have supported the plan.

Dark days lie ahead, because GoI allowed the Wahhabization to take place unhindered.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby RamaY » 14 Sep 2010 07:24

Our own Neros remain quite as Rome burns.

Very sad to see lack of basic leadeship at this blatent provocation. Perhaps strategic silence to deny any chance for the opponent to consolidate.

I hope the leadership is think hard and long on the bharatiya-interests that made them what they are today.

Bharat has done aranyavas for 12yrs followed by 1 yr ajnatavas since 1998. Time has come for Partha to show his valor as Uttarakumara falters.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby negi » 14 Sep 2010 07:28

ramana wrote:But throwing stones at acts in US will cause displeasure in US. Wont the Hurriats funding be cut off? Can someone analyze the envoy's speech to discern any changes?

On the contrary it will only vindicate the stand taken by massa based Dhimmis (who have mixed up liberty/freedom with appeasement). Hurriyat's funding comes from non gobmint based organizations (Hawala being a major source) moreover if J&K issue is resolved Unkil will loose out on a major issue which it can exploit to assert itself in the sub continent.

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2010 08:00

Chinese soldiers in Gilgit-Baltistan
Image

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Re: Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 14 Sep 2010 08:43

That terrain does not look so formidable at all to conquer and lay siege to, if it indeed is Gilgit-Baltistan.


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