Managing Chinese Threat

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby abhijitm » 27 Apr 2013 13:06

ShauryaT wrote:>>let's put our thinking on the line here.

China knows our game. We will not do anything to escalate, by ourselves but will defend. Sumdurong Chu is what they have gamed for. The only way, to "win" this game of brinkmanship is to escalate.

My recommendation is to cut off supply routes to the encroached PLA troops. Then it is upon PRC to escalate. Knowing fully well that any escalation by PRC would be matched and they just do not have the strength or the will to fight us in our backyard, they will back down.

I too agree. Siege it should be. But my recommendation is to wait until their PM visits here. The day he lands escalate with this small step. I think this has presented an opportunity for us (and for them too) to peep into their psych. Nobody is going anywhere. Lets play this game for a while. I want to see who blinks first.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby abhijitm » 27 Apr 2013 13:17

Also, not panicing is also a demonstration of strength and confidence. This is not a cheap rats like pakis we are dealing with. We must approach and deal the situation with full confidence. step by step.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RoyG » 27 Apr 2013 13:21

Sadly, no escalation will take place with the present central government. The Chinese will just camp there.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby abhijitm » 27 Apr 2013 13:28

My feeling is, it happened with the Italian marines, it will happen with chinese too. This matter, I believe, is beyond a political party's playgouynd. All analysts, entire military institute is involved and the game will be played together, as a nation, not a political party.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby abhijitm » 27 Apr 2013 13:34

My humble request is, we are being tested as a nation. We are caught in a complex trap. To get out will need some patience. So please stay together and dont try to score political goals. JMHO.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RajeshA » 27 Apr 2013 14:07

Can somebody please show these poor Chinese pilgrims the way out? May be Indian jawans would be so kind to ferry the wayward souls to Delhi and transfer them to the custody of the Chinese Embassy!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby abhijitm » 27 Apr 2013 14:13

RajeshA, the status quo is broken. If we take an action in haste then there are more chances of a reciprocal action will follow against our patrolling troops in some other area. First priority is to get them back to the status quo by every possible diplomatic mean. Lets see how this unravels. We are holding our cards too.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19648 » 27 Apr 2013 14:48

As predicted, the incursion news is out of the front page of the English dailies. What is happening? Are the Chinese getting evicted or not? Why this kid-glove treatment for the Chinese? Its going to be one and a half weeks and no action at all...

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19648 » 27 Apr 2013 14:58

Now MMS speaks finally of an elusive plan that there is no plan.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Border-dispute-with-China-can-be-solved-Manmohan-says/articleshow/19753519.cms

Border dispute with China can be solved, Manmohan says


NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Saturday said India does not want to "accentuate" the situation in the wake of the recent Chinese incursion in Ladakh and is working on a plan to resolve it.

"We do have a plan. We do not want to accentuate the situation. We do believe that it is possible to resolve this problem. It is a localised problem. I think the talks are going on," he said when asked if the government had any plans to resolve the issue.
The Prime Minister was speaking to reporters on the sidelines of the defence investiture ceremony at Rashtrapati Bhavan here.

On April 15, a platoon-strength contingent of China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) had come inside the Indian territory in Burthe in the DBO sector and established a tented post there.

The government had on Saturday told a parliamentary committee that Chinese troops have pitched tents 19 kms deep inside the Indian territory in Ladakh region.

The Army has given its inputs to the government and the national security adviser-headed China study group, which is handling the present situation in Ladakh.

The Army has also given various options to the government on the issue including the aggressive use of military to handle the present situation.

All the options suggested to the China study group are being looked at carefully and other stakeholders in the situation have also given their inputs.

The Army had rushed its troops from the 5 Ladakh Scouts battalion to the DBO area and they are camping there. The force is also considering the option of dispatching additional troops if the need arises.


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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2013 15:38

Not having a plan is also a plan. Ha ha only in india. We are the laughing stock of east asia at this rate....the vietnamese will lose serious face breaking bread with such a ineffective clumsy giant.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Rohit_K » 27 Apr 2013 16:10

"...It is a localised problem. I think the talks are going on," he said when asked if the government had any plans to resolve the issue.


:roll:

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Christopher Sidor » 27 Apr 2013 16:30

^^^
Seriously?? Talks are going on? Chinese troops are 10-19 kms inside Indian territory. Oh I get, these guys have already assumed that northern part of ladakh which chinese have occupied is already a chinese territory.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 27 Apr 2013 17:37

Manoj Joshi has now come out with an article in a similar vein- the boundary is undefined.In the Hindu editorial. What the heck is wrong with some Indian commentators?

The amazing thing is, if Indians crossed into Chinese territory, and were ambushed and slaughtered, the very same characters, Alka Acharya, Manoj Joshi et al, would be strongly suggesting that the Indians had it coming, had provoked it, must see the incident objectively, not get caught up in jingoistic nationalism yada yada. There is a national pathology at work here. It has to be exposed publicly.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 17:49

If boundary is undefined then certainly we can go and set up camps anywhere within our perceived LAC.

The Chinese soldiers presently camping at Burtse are our hostages. So I think the Chinese will not risk endangering them through precipitate steps against any such Indian camps.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19648 » 27 Apr 2013 18:04

I don't think India is of any use to the Vietnamese, specially after this, they might as well offer help to evict the Chinese as we seriously have proved our inability to handle hostile situations. The message is clear to the Pakis too who next time might involve a few PLA soldiers when do another Kargil on us so that India is spooked to inaction.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_23692 » 27 Apr 2013 18:26

Rohit_K wrote:
"...It is a localised problem. I think the talks are going on," he said when asked if the government had any plans to resolve the issue.


:roll:


A "localized problem" ? What exactly does that mean ? That the Chinese have not yet launched a multi-pronged attack up and down the entire border ? or That the rest of the country need not worry about this, this is local to Ladakh ? Or that Ladakh is not part of mainstream India ? or that it Is not the Government of India's problem, local Ladakhis will take care of it ? or the statement signals an irritiation and implies that the media is unnecessarily elevating a minor local issue to national importance and that the government should have been allowed to turn a blind eye to this and continue with its orgy of corruption and debauchery, as "delli abhi door hai" ?

OR ALL OF THE ABOVE !

I gotta hand it to Sardar MM Singh. Only in India........can a violation of our borders by 20 Kms, no less, be termed as a "localized problem" ! When exactly will it stop being a localized problem ? 50 KMS ? 200 ? 500 ? taking of Tawang? Taking of all of Arunachal ? Taking of all of Arunachal and Ladakh and facilitating Kashmir Valley in Paki hands ? Or how about, outskirts of Delhi ?

Of course he has a plan. We all know what it is. Is it really that hard for anyone to guess, based on our 65 year track record ? The plan is called, "turn around and bend over".

Here are a few fresh articles in Indian English language media that may support my contention above:

1. http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indus-calling/entry/if-pakistan-is-a-land-of-barbarians-india-has-become-a-shadow-of-a-nation

2. http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indus-calling/entry/china-in-ladakh-a-frozen-state-takes-time-to-react-to-an-aggression

3. http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ChanakyaCode/entry/chinese-intent-behind-the-intrusion-into-the-indian-territory

and finally the much awaited and somewhat belated "clear speak" from Narendra Modi on Sarabjit Singh, Ladakh incursion and beheadings of our soldiers. Belated but, at least "der aye durust aye". I would have expected him to be more forceful though.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Gujarat/Centre-has-suffered-total-blackout-in-its-foreign-policy-Modi/Article1-1051200.aspx

In the meantime, Akshilesh Yadav is of course more upset with his fundamentalist Muslim minister being "searched" at the US airport than either Sarabjit Singh or Ladakh incursion and the beheadings, not to mention daily killing of our people and forces in Kashmir. He is shocked that the US does not behave like India and actually searches some random Muslims at airports, particularly in the immediate aftermath of the Boston bombings. He is also shocked that the US officials' instincts about Azam Khan are more correct than any Indian instincts about him (Indian instincts of self survival are pretty much dead at this point). He is taking it out on India by "boycotting a reception at the Indian Consulate in NYC", that was to be held in his honor. See the link below.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/NorthAmerica/Akhilesh-Yadav-cancels-NY-Consulate-reception/Article1-1051130.aspx

And, our PM "condemns" the attack on Sarabjit Singh, whatever that means and the BJP asks him to "warn" Pakistan on Sarabjit, WHATEVER that means. These political parties - they are either all in it together or competing with each other in a spectacle of spinelessness. See the two links below.

[url]http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Pakistan/Sarabjit-s-head-injury-quite-severe-kin-granted-Pak-visa-PM-condemns-brutal-attack/Article1-1051170.aspx
[/url]
[url]http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/India-should-warn-Pak-following-attack-on-Sarabjit-BJP/Article1-1050954.aspx
[/url]

A country that treats its heroes like this, is doomed, doomed to extinction. We as a nation are slowly "corruptionizing" ourselves into oblivion.

Why do I say all of the above ? Not to demoralize us, but to shock all of us into waking up. Let us take lessons from incidents such as these, most of all the brazen and blatant Chinese Aggression which has clearly exposed us as a "Chakka Nation", that we cannot rely on this "Chakka ruling system". WE AS PEOPLE SHOULD RISE UP and the first steps towards this rising up includes a strong resolve as a people and as individuals not to indulge in corruption ourselves while having "zero" tolerance for corruption in our society, including taking matters into our own hands if necessary when we witness corruption. And let us as a society consider Corruption as a sin and crime on par with murder and rape, if not even more serious. Even greater sacrifices are required from each one of us in the service of the nation, but let us first start with foregoing any kind of corruption ourselves.

And yes, I start with the "man in the mirror".

And none of the points I have made above will be negated, even if the Chinese totally withdraw tomorrow and restore status quo. The fact that is whole thing has happened already and way it has transpired and the Indian reaction has already humiliated us, even if by some miracle the government sends in the army to take strong action (yea, I still keep dreaming !).

And, someone mentioned in this thread that "we should all be patient, and be together". Of course we are all together, except that we all ARE NOT WITH THE TRAITORS AND THE APPEASERS AND THE PASSIVE AND THE CORRUPT. And "PATIENCE" is the last thing, the very last thing, the absolute last thing, anyone should counsel at this point. Impatience, just like patience is a also an instinct bestowed to us by our almighty. It is a survival instinct, which used at appropriate times, serves us well, just like patience does. Right now, exhibiting patience is not only not appropriate, it is unseemly and counter to our survival.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby harbans » 27 Apr 2013 19:22

Sangram Ji, MMS is right. This is a localized problem and a difference in perception. What else do you think is the whole idea of a joint border management mechanism to deal with perception differences if not at the local levels? And all that is to be done away from any public eye. The fundamental problem here is that the assumptions on which the border management instruments have been constructed. No, the Chinese are not 10 or 20 kms inside...the Chinese are 4000 plus kms inside where they should NOT be!! When we realize and internalize that we will be somewhere near the truth. MMS seems not even aware that talks are going on. The perceptions are to be cleared at some local commander level. A white paper is needed to see over the last 2 decades how much of our territory we have ceded through this border management groups that seems to comprise push from Alka Acharya kinds of people in the NSA. This is a scam of epic proportion being conducted on the people of India while the GOI absolves itself of any responsibility at the loss of land km by km.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 19:29

harbans wrote:the Chinese are 4000 plus kms inside where they should NOT be!! When we realize and internalize that we will be somewhere near the truth.

And practically speaking, what do you hope to gain by such a declaration?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 27 Apr 2013 19:29

I wonder at what point Dr. Manmohan Singh will be prepared to "accentuate" the problem. When the Chinese have taken another 200 km? Nobody has given this incompetent shameless government the right to decide that they will not defend India's territory; they have a constitutional obligation to defend India, which they are completely failing to do so.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 27 Apr 2013 19:31

Pranav wrote:
harbans wrote:the Chinese are 4000 plus kms inside where they should NOT be!! When we realize and internalize that we will be somewhere near the truth.

And practically speaking, what do you hope to gain by such a declaration?


harbans mentioned "truth". Perhaps you have little "practical" use for it.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby brihaspati » 27 Apr 2013 19:36

abhijitm wrote
I too agree. Siege it should be. But my recommendation is to wait until their PM visits here. The day he lands escalate with this small step. I think this has presented an opportunity for us (and for them too) to peep into their psych. Nobody is going anywhere. Lets play this game for a while. I want to see who blinks first.


You still need to see into each others "psych"(e)? What has India been doing for the last 60 years? This is an "opportunity" to "peep" into each others' psyche? If the "psych" has not yet been seen into in 60 years, any chance of it now? How much of diplomatic pussyfooting and excuse-finding is required to cover for the reluctance to hurt Beijing in any possible concrete and tangible way apart from filibustering about "throwing them out" without actually building up the capacity to throw them out that has been going on from 1958 after the appeasement policy failed?

Also, not panicing is also a demonstration of strength and confidence. This is not a cheap rats like pakis we are dealing with. We must approach and deal the situation with full confidence. step by step.

Yes just as calmly as the Assamese were abandoned - showing no panic(k)ing, as a demo of strength and confidence. It seems like the Nehruvian speeches in parliament or some of the statements now being issued for the last 40 years from the govs. My kudos to you if you are a serving diplomat or party spokesperson.

My feeling is, it happened with the Italian marines, it will happen with chinese too. This matter, I believe, is beyond a political party's playgouynd. All analysts, entire military institute is involved and the game will be played together, as a nation, not a political party.

The "nation" came together over the "marines"? Which nation came together? The state gov and the courts and central gov came together. The fishermen came slightly untogether - and most of the nation remained tossed about by the secretive, and often unhighlighted goings on from the foreign sources and theocracy.

Why is it when there is bungling by the ruling coteries, there is this thunderous declaration of the "nation" coming together. Make the blunder and criminal stupidity or greed driven malintents of a small section of power mongers who never take the nation into confidence before committing the blunders suddenly feel the overwhelming solemn urge to demand the "nation" come together to save them from losing face - at the least by somehow sharing the blame!

Or the worry is that the party in power should not be seen as the one responsible by demanding that no other party points the fact out?

My humble request is, we are being tested as a nation. We are caught in a complex trap. To get out will need some patience. So please stay together and dont try to score political goals. JMHO.


No, the nation cannot be tested when the nation is never taken into confidence before a crisis actually bursts out in the open and on an ongoing basis. You seem to be more worried about the prestige and authority of leadership of particular political parties than of the nation. It is the lowliest of political posturing to take shelter behind the "people" and "unity" after being exposed for criminal negligence and appeasement attitudes towards an aggressive and imperialist power that has consistently remained so for the last 60 years.


RajeshA, the status quo is broken. If we take an action in haste then there are more chances of a reciprocal action will follow against our patrolling troops in some other area. First priority is to get them back to the status quo by every possible diplomatic mean. Lets see how this unravels. We are holding our cards too.

The status quo was never broken. Not ever, even starting from 1950. Each time, the Chinese have pushed a little bit more and got away with it. The status quo is not broken as shown in your statements too - the very similar arguments have been put forward by GOI's from 1950's. It is always a rationalization of not resisting and not taking concrete roll-back steps. Is there something, some info or otherwise, so deep in the hands of the Chinese communist party that always grips the GOI establishment, starting from 1950's - by their coleus, (assuming at least one exists)?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 19:37

eklavya wrote:harbans mentioned "truth". Perhaps you have little "practical" use for it.


To understand Dharma, read the Mahabharata ... but that is strictly OT for this thread.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby harbans » 27 Apr 2013 19:43

Pranav Ji, ultimately the whole gamut of problems aka differences in perceptions are occurring due to one big flaw. Our acknowledgement of Chinese aggression. We don;t want disputes on the northern borders where as the problem is we are not disputing anything at all. The CHinese dispute ArP we should be disputing Tibet. The Chinese have misperceptions on Ladhak, we should tell them we want KM! If the CHinese can claim what they want, why don;t we claim and dispute what truthfully should be: Chinese aggression of Tibet as the fundamental cause of misperception of our northern boundaries and Han takeover of KM which is rightfully ours. What will it take us to flag Tibet and Kailash Mansarover on the Chinese face openly? What will the Chinese do if we do that? Nothing that they are not today.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 27 Apr 2013 19:45

Pranav wrote:
eklavya wrote:harbans mentioned "truth". Perhaps you have little "practical" use for it.


To understand Dharma, read the Mahabharata ... but that is strictly OT for this thread.


Gratuitous advice alert.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 19:48

B ji, the vulture cannot be faulted for tearing at the flesh of the dying man, who is stumbling around.

While correcting our undoubted shortcomings we have no choice but to manage relations with China, so that the process of natural decline of western power structure, and the re-emergence of Asia after centuries of colonial dominance, can continue.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 27 Apr 2013 19:49

harbans wrote:Pranav Ji, ultimately the whole gamut of problems aka differences in perceptions are occurring due to one big flaw. Our acknowledgement of Chinese aggression. We don't want disputes on the northern borders where as the problem is we are not disputing anything at all. The CHinese dispute ArP we should be disputing Tibet. The Chinese have misperceptions on Ladhak, we should tell them we want KM! If the CHinese can claim what they want, why don't we claim and dispute what truthfully should be: Chinese aggression of Tibet as the fundamental cause of misperception of our northern boundaries and Han takeover of KM which is rightfully ours. What will it take us to flag Tibet and Kailash Mansarover on the Chinese face openly? What will the Chinese do if we do that? Nothing that they are not today.


harbans-ji, you are completely right.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 19:54

harbans wrote:What will the Chinese do if we do that? Nothing that they are not today.


Whether we like it or not, to pacify South Asia, we need cooperation from the powers that have been causing problems here. So we have been trying to co-opt the US-UK, Saudi Arabia etc. Tomorrow we will also have to co-opt China.

All these powers will cooperate only when they feel that they have more to gain by keeping India happy than otherwise.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_23692 » 27 Apr 2013 19:57

Pranav wrote:
All these powers will cooperate only when they feel that they have more to gain by keeping India happy than otherwise.


Which will only happen if and when India is powerful enough to engender respect from them, not through appeasement or "management".

This is what many here including Harbans and Eklavya are trying to say.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 27 Apr 2013 20:01

Pranav wrote:
harbans wrote:What will the Chinese do if we do that? Nothing that they are not today.


Whether we like it or not, to pacify South Asia, we need cooperation from the powers that have been causing problems here. So we have been trying to co-opt the US-UK, Saudi Arabia etc. Tomorrow we will also have to coopt China.

All these powers will cooperate only when they feel that they have more to gain by keeping India happy than otherwise.


No one will be coopted into preserving India's interests while the Government of India singularly fails to identify and protect its own interests. Pay attention to what harbans is writing. No more grand excuses for inaction ... its not masterly ... its plain stupid and irresponsible.
Last edited by eklavya on 27 Apr 2013 20:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby harbans » 27 Apr 2013 20:01

Eklavya ji, thanks. I have been saying this since years. Till date i have heard only 1 mention by Brahma Chellaney on TV regarding flagging the Tibet card and precisely 0 mentions anywhere regarding the Kailash Mansarover region. This is what the Chinese have been doing away from the public eye and discourse, a good art in a ToI blog:

Last year, there was increased aggressiveness visible when an Indian bunker was destroyed in Laddakh. Then the Chinese objected to a military delegation led by Lt Gen. B.S. Jaswal the then Commander of the Northern Command on the ground that the area commanded by him falls under the disputed region. China had also objected to the visit of our PM to Arunachal Pradesh. China had also opposed an Asian Bank project in Arunachal Pradesh. These acts reflect Chinese lack of diplomatic sensitivities and protocol as well as a plan to acquire areas claimed by it.

Second, the Chinese have been following a policy of aggressively asserting their claims in all areas along the border since the last couple of years. China had formed a committee of 13 departments to devise methods and fabricate evidences to claim the all the areas along its land and maritime borders. Soon after the recommendations of this committee were made, China began to stamp on visas the Chinese map showing all the disputed regions as the Chinese territory.


In view of the forgoing, the designs of China become palpable. The current intrusion is a part of well calibrated and calculated plan of China. China feels that it is now possible to assert its claims over the bordering areas and given the policies of its neighbours who do not go beyond a point to press their claims with a view to maintain relations with a country which is important from the commercial point of view. India feels that by accepting its demands for not sending in the military delegations led by officials from J&K or north east, China is being ‘managed’. India’s too much reliance on the agreements made in 1993 (Agreement on Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility), in 1996 (Confidence Building Measures) and in 2003 (Declaration on Principles for Relations of People’s Republic of China and Republic of India) do not allow it to see the Chinese game plan. That China is acting against these agreements is now clear demanding a change in India’s China policy. Indian leadership should stop stating that Tibet is an autonomous part of China. Recently at the sidelines of BRICS meeting the Chinese newspapers have reported that Indian PM on its own stated this and also assured that Tibetan would not be allowed to indulge in any anti-Chinese activity. It is not known what the need to state this was. China takes this as an accepted fact and not as a concession from India.


http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... -territory

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 20:07

rsangram wrote:Which will only happen if and when India is powerful enough to engender respect from them, not through appeasement or "management".

This is what many here including Harbans and Eklavya are trying to say.


See, we are in the condition of a dying man, stumbling around, whose flesh is being torn by vultures.

So yes, we need to correct our shortcomings so that the vultures keep away.

But there is no practical possibility of pushing China out from Tibet. And given that we will need to co-opt them tomorrow if not today, why behave like Don Quixote.

Eventually China will may through a democratization process and may become more like Singapore or Taiwan, or it may go through severe internal chaos, we will have to wait and see.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 20:12

eklavya wrote:No one will be coopted into preserving India's interests while the Government of India singularly fails to identify and protect its own interests. Pay attention to what harbans is writing. No more grand excuses for inaction ... its not masterly ... its plain stupid and irresponsible.


I totally agree we need to preserve our own interests.

But you have no hope of pushing Chinese from Tibet and want to behave like Don Quixote, while ignoring the fact that we may need to cooperate with them tomorrow, on the basis of mutual interest.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RajeshA » 27 Apr 2013 20:13

Pranav wrote:Eventually China will may through a democratization process and may become more like Singapore or Taiwan, or it may go through severe internal chaos, we will have to wait and see.


Why wait and see? Why not help the Chinese people actively in their democratic and spiritual aspirations?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 27 Apr 2013 20:16

India is not a dying man; this is just defeatist nonsense. India has no need to co-opt China or any other country. We will treat each country as each country treats us; with the default setting being mutual respect. India is a great country and hundreds of millions of Indians are working to make our country greater by following the path of hard work and honesty. Our territorial integrity has been violated, and the people of India demand that it be restored.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 20:19

RajeshA wrote:
Pranav wrote:Eventually China will may through a democratization process and may become more like Singapore or Taiwan, or it may go through severe internal chaos, we will have to wait and see.


Why wait and see? Why not help the Chinese people actively in their democratic and spiritual aspirations?


That may be possible ... we may be able to help revive Buddhism there and perhaps even bring them to the Dharma of the Upanishads and Adi Shankara ....

But the higher priority is to promote the democratic and spiritual aspirations of the people of India!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby chaanakya » 27 Apr 2013 20:19

Is it in preparation for 2014? Congoons are in deep panic such that they may commit suicide to get few votes. Under NaMo ( I can only hope) their goose would be cooked for decades to come.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_23692 » 27 Apr 2013 20:19

Pranav wrote:
rsangram wrote:Which will only happen if and when India is powerful enough to engender respect from them, not through appeasement or "management".

This is what many here including Harbans and Eklavya are trying to say.


See, we are in the condition of a dying man, stumbling around, whose flesh is being torn by vultures.

So yes, we need to correct our shortcomings so that the vultures keep away.

But there is no practical possibility of pushing China out from Tibet. And given that we will need to co-opt them tomorrow if not today, why behave like Don Quixote.

Eventually China will may through a democratization process and may become more like Singapore or Taiwan, or it may go through severe internal chaos, we will have to wait and see.


Clearly, if you are arguing that we should not pick a losing battle, where we are sure to lose, you are right. And maybe right now, forget derecognizing Tibet, if we are not able to push out a small force which has encroached 20 plus Kms inside our own territory, clearly even attempting to push out the Chinese from our own territory is a "losing fight". So, maybe in that sense tolerating it is the best we can do at the moment.

But this of course, begs the question as to why we are in such a "losing position" ? Unless we are clearly able to diagnose the problem, we will apply the wrong fixes or apply no fixes at all. If you think China is the problem and that when it democratically becomes more like Taiwan and Singapore (Singapore ?) the problem will be resolved, you are simply parroting the same official line of the Indian Government. Dont forget it is not only China, but all our neighbors who by all natural, political and military laws should be living peacefully with us as our "younger brothers" are humiliating us. Pak, BanglaDesh, Sri Lanka, and even Nepal and Maldives. So, clearly, the problem is not China, per se. If China didnt exist, and we were as weak as we are, someone else will fill in the vacuum and attack us. The problem lies within. Within us. Obviously, we on this forum cannot totally "fix" the massive problem within. But we certainly can diagnose the problem correctly and unequivocally and clearly state a "Problem Statement" here. We cannot take action, but we CAN ANALYZE. Let us clearly state what the "Problem" is within that causes us to come to this stage where we are helpless against a naked aggression.

I have already stated above, my view is, and my strong view is, that it is "Corruption" within. Only if we can state the problem in a simple and categorical manner, will there be a solution around which people will be able to coalesce and an actual movement be evolved outside this forum and on the ground. But this forum can certainly be a thought leader, a sort of a think tank.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 27 Apr 2013 20:22

Pranav wrote:
eklavya wrote:No one will be coopted into preserving India's interests while the Government of India singularly fails to identify and protect its own interests. Pay attention to what harbans is writing. No more grand excuses for inaction ... its not masterly ... its plain stupid and irresponsible.


I totally agree we need to preserve our own interests.

But you have no hope of pushing Chinese from Tibet and want to behave like Don Quixote, while ignoring the fact that we may need to cooperate with them tomorrow, on the basis of mutual interest.


The Chinese don't recognise that J&K and Arunachal Pradesh are part of India. Why should we recognise that Tibet is part of China. Historically, linguistically, culturally and geographically, it is not a part of China.

I feel no need to co-opt with a country which is actively harming my country with a view of suppressing it politically, diplomatically, economically and militarily. If you don't even recognise who your mortal enemy is, you will die.
Last edited by eklavya on 27 Apr 2013 20:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Singha » 27 Apr 2013 20:22

I have actually started to read c.rajagopalachari mahabharata to try and understand some clues to this mess in indian statecraft.

There are numerous instances of the pandavas acting in ways unacceptable to kshatriya like karna killed while trying to free his chariot, jayadratha killed by the fake sunset, krishna playing a active role in saving arjun from the elephant goad thrown by bhagadatta, karna being tricked into using the daivyastra against ghotatkocha rather than arjun, krishna disguised as a brahmin taking away karna invulnerable kavach and kuntal , bheemsa killed by hiding behind shikhandi and drona killed when meditating by a lie. The two most senior warriors and clan elder teachers killed by tricks

When bhima violated the rules again by striking his equal match duryadhona below the navel in the legs and mortally wounded him, duryodhana flared up and pointed out all these incidents. Balarama also arrived on the scene and made to kill bhima with his plough..was stopped by krishna and left in disgust to dwaraka. Krishan rationalised all these rule breaks by pointing out the evil deeds of the kauravas as == thing.

In the end kripacharya. Kritavarma tried to stop ashwathama from killing the sleeping kids of the pandavas and their army at night but went along with him out of loyalty and to share the burden of his sin.

Neither side was totally clean imo. What i got is once one side breaks the rules the other side must play dirty as well or risk getting wiped out. In a time of moral and political decay, clinging on to some romantic nehruvian vision of statecraft is guaranteed to kill this country one way or another.

Hard nosed players are needed at the table not congi cur.
Last edited by Singha on 27 Apr 2013 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pranav » 27 Apr 2013 20:23

eklavya wrote:India is not a dying man; this is just defeatist nonsense. India has no need to co-opt China or any other country. We will treat each country as each country treats us; with the default setting being mutual respect. India is a great country and hundreds of millions of Indians are working to make our country greater by following the path of hard work and honesty. Our territorial integrity has been violated, and the people of India demand that it be restored.


See, India is getting kicked around by every Tom, Dick and Harry precisely because we are afflicted with thoroughly corrupt and incompetent rulers, who loot billions while the people starve, and who could not be bothered about defense except for the purpose of earning bribes from foreign suppliers.
Last edited by Pranav on 27 Apr 2013 20:36, edited 1 time in total.


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