Managing Chinese Threat

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Suraj
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Suraj » 26 Nov 2013 08:16

Garg: Do you understand the concept of a thread topic ? This thread is about the Chinese. It's not about India's national priorities. If you have anything to contribute on the thread topic, you're welcome to do so. If not, way to go weaseling out of the discussion after spending several posts lecturing about what India should be doing about itself.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby JE Menon » 27 Nov 2013 00:44

Garg wrote:Mr Menon,

Point 1: You would worry about India's economy or China's economy. As an Indian, your concern would be with India's economy. What happens to China is secondary.

Have I offended you? I did not mean to. There is an entire forum here to discuss the Indian economy. This thread is about China, and its efforts to save face and stand up to the world by showing itself to be more than it really is in the hope that the world will believe it. But the world wont.

A big war will definitely damage India's economy in more ways than one. This is a serious concern.

The sun rises in the east

Point 2: China has been accorded a special place by the West, due to its large economic role generally, as well as its support of US and European economies.

The "special place" part is childish and shows up China's own complexes. As for the rest, sure, they trade with each other too.

India can also get this status but India is not there yet.

I don't think India is looking for it.

Point 3: China fought WWII, a devastating civil war, Korean War and and many other smaller wars, but still stands in very good economic and military shape. This is due to effort of its citizens.

Congratulations. We applaud the achievements of the Chinese citizens.

India can also get there IF there is effort from its citizens.

The sun sets in the west.

Point 4: India's place in the World

India's prestige is definitely increasing but more as an economic power rather than as a military power. It will take more time before India is recognized as a military power.

We are not so worried about prestige, unlike the Chinese. I think the Chinese are so concerned about what the West thinks of them that they might soon have a president who has both a Western name and a Chinese name.



And you still haven't answered my question in response to your initial post. Does what I said apply, or not?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19686 » 27 Nov 2013 01:21

US B-52 bombers challenge disputed China air zone

The US has flown two B-52 bombers over disputed islands in the East China Sea in defiance of new Chinese air defence rules, officials say.

China set up its "air defence identification zone" on Saturday insisting that aircraft obey its rules or face "emergency defensive measures".

A Pentagon spokesman said the planes had followed "normal procedures".

The islands, known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China, are a source of rising tension between the two nations.

Japan has dismissed the Chinese defence zone as "not valid at all" and two of its biggest airlines announced on Tuesday they would heed a request from the government in Tokyo not to implement the new rules.


'Normal procedures'
US Colonel Steve Warren at the Pentagon said Washington had "conducted operations in the area of the Senkakus".

"We have continued to follow our normal procedures, which include not filing flight plans, not radioing ahead and not registering our frequencies," he said.

There had been no response from China, he added.

The aircraft, which were unarmed, had taken off from Guam on Monday and the flight was part of a regular exercise in the area, US defence officials said. Both planes later returned to Guam.

The US - which has more than 70,000 troops in Japan and South Korea - had previously said it would not abide by the Chinese-imposed zone.

US Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel called it a "destabilising attempt to alter the status quo in the region". The White House said it was "unnecessarily inflammatory".

Japan has already lodged a strong protest over what it said was an "escalation" by China.

Taiwan, which also claims the islands, expressed regret at the Chinese move and promised that its military would take measures to protect national security.


In its statement announcing the air defence zone on Saturday, the Chinese defence ministry said aircraft must report a flight plan, "maintain two-way radio communications", and "respond in a timely and accurate manner" to identification inquiries.

"China's armed forces will adopt defensive emergency measures to respond to aircraft that do not co-operate in the identification or refuse to follow the instructions," the statement said.

Japan Airlines and All Nippon Airlines said on Tuesday they would stop filing flight plans demanded by China on routes through the zone following a request from the Japanese government.

Singapore Airlines and Australia's Qantas have both said they will abide by the new rules.

However, Australia summoned the Chinese ambassador on Tuesday to express opposition over the zone.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop said "the timing and manner" of China's announcement were "unhelpful in light of current regional tensions".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25110011

sanjaykumar
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby sanjaykumar » 27 Nov 2013 03:03

Hehehe suck on that commie phuckers.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Cosmo_R » 27 Nov 2013 05:22

Garg wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Sorry, no offense but could not resist.

Your full name is Garg A. Mel?

Please take this as a terrible smurf joke.


'Garg' is my real name. Do you any problems? What is with the full name? Is it necessary to use full name on Bharat Rakshak forum?


Of course it is. Only the Han would miss the joke. But then they are not known for a sense of humor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gargamel

You go now yes?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19686 » 27 Nov 2013 06:11

THREE days ago China declared a no-fly zone over waters claimed by Japan. Yesterday, the US flew bombers over them. Today, China has sent in an aircraft carrier. Are these the drums of war on our doorstep?
Late yesterday Australian time, two US B-52 bombers flew over the Senkaku/Diaoyou island chain in the East China Sea –a deliberately provocative act in response to a freshly declared “air identification zone”.
In response, China has ordered its only aircraft carrier - the PNAS Liaoning - into disputed waters.
The carrier battlegroup is destined for the Scarborough shoal, claimed by Manila and just 200km from the Philippines, last year.

Once there the warships will conduct "scientific experiments" and "military exercises" , the Chinese website sina.com.cn says.
It's a major escalation of tensions over several sets of islands which have been brewing for decades, but has reached boiling point in the past week...

http://www.news.com.au/world/united-sta ... #undefined

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby rajrang » 27 Nov 2013 22:05

Surasena wrote:
THREE days ago China declared a no-fly zone over waters claimed by Japan. Yesterday, the US flew bombers over them. Today, China has sent in an aircraft carrier. Are these the drums of war on our doorstep?
Late yesterday Australian time, two US B-52 bombers flew over the Senkaku/Diaoyou island chain in the East China Sea –a deliberately provocative act in response to a freshly declared “air identification zone”.
In response, China has ordered its only aircraft carrier - the PNAS Liaoning - into disputed waters.
The carrier battlegroup is destined for the Scarborough shoal, claimed by Manila and just 200km from the Philippines, last year.

Once there the warships will conduct "scientific experiments" and "military exercises" , the Chinese website sina.com.cn says.
It's a major escalation of tensions over several sets of islands which have been brewing for decades, but has reached boiling point in the past week...

http://www.news.com.au/world/united-sta ... #undefined



China has revealed its hand with respect to aircraft carriers. They intend to use them for old fashioned gun boat diplomacy. Some years from today they could send their carrier(s) to the Indian Ocean to "protect their interests", or base them in Gwadar!

Indian aircraft carrier manufacturing plans/policy makers need to take note of this latest development.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19686 » 28 Nov 2013 20:32

Korea Defies Chinese Aerial Zone

A Korean patrol plane flew over the submerged shelf of Ieo on Tuesday without notifying China, three days after Beijing unilaterally announced an air defense identification zone that includes it.

Such zones are areas outside territorial waters where overflying aircraft must notify the country that claims them.

A military source said the Navy's P-3C maritime patrol plane "conducted surveillance over Ieo," which is home to a Korean research base.

The Navy flows a P-3C over Ieo twice a week.

The source added that the flights will continue without notifying China. However, the military informed Japan ahead of time about the surveillance flights since Ieo has been part of Japan's air defense zone since 1969.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/htm ... 00651.html

Japanese jets have flown into China's new air zone
Tensions have ratcheted up since Beijing announced a new airspace defense zone that includes the skies over the long-disputed islands

World Bulletin/News Desk
Japanese military airplanes have conducted routine surveillance missions over disputed islands in the East China Sea without informing China, despite Beijing establishing a new airspace defence zone in the area this week, a top Japanese government official said on Thursday.
"They are carrying out surveillance activity as before in the East China Sea, including the zone," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga told a regular news conference, adding that there had been no particular response from China.
"We are not going to change this (activity) out of consideration to China," he added.
The area is routinely patrolled by Japanese naval ships and P-3C aircraft, Suga said.
An update of Japan's long-term defence policy to be unveiled next month will call for stronger air and maritime surveillance capabilities and the improved ability to defend far-flung isles as concerns rise about China's growing military assertiveness.
The policy review, in the works since hawkish Prime Minister Shinzo Abe took office last December, is being finalised as tensions mount between Japan and China over tiny islands in the East China Sea, known as the Senkaku in Japan and the Diaoyu in China.
"The security environment surrounding our country has become increasingly grave," said a draft outline of the policy shown to ruling party lawmakers and obtained by Reuters on Thursday.
"China is proceeding with wide-ranging and rapid modernisation of its military strength and expanding and stepping up activities in the sea and air surrounding Japan," the draft said.
It also cited concerns about North Korea's nuclear and missile programmes and Russia's military modernisation.
Tensions have ratcheted up since Beijing announced a new airspace defense zone on Saturday that includes the skies over the long-disputed islands and said planes flying in the area would have to notify Chinese authorities. Japan and its ally the United States have sharply criticised the move.
On Thursday, the policy panel of Abe's Liberal Democratic Party approved a resolution demanding China rescind the new defence zone, saying the unilateral move reflected "unreasonable expansionism". But the resolution dropped the more inflammatory expression "premodern and imperialist expansionism" contained in an earlier draft.
Japan's new defence programme, an update of a defence posture last reviewed in 2010 under the now-opposition Democratic Party, would strengthen the military's monitoring capability to ensure air and maritime safety as well as improving intelligence-gathering capabilities, the draft said.
The Defence Ministry has already said it was considering buying unmanned surveillance drones.
FAR-FLUNG ISLES
The outline says Japan will beef up its ability to send troops to far-flung islands. The ministry is considering creating an amphibious unit similar to the U.S. Marines.
Media reports have said Japan planned to deploy high-speed maneuver combat vehicles that can be sent to remote islands by air and was considering acquiring high-speed small escort ships to counter the threat of sea mines and submarines.
The document also pledges to strengthen the alliance with the United States, including through a review of defence cooperation guidelines to be completed by the end of 2014.
The United States does not take a position on the sovereignty of the islands but recognises that Tokyo has administrative control over them.
U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel assured his Japanese counterpart by telephone on Wednesday that the allies' security pact covers the disputed islands.
The United States has defied China's demand that airplanes flying through the zone identify themselves to Chinese authorities, sending two unarmed B-52 bombers over the islands earlier this week without informing Beijing.

The tensions will loom large during a trip by U.S. Vice President Joe Biden to Japan, China and South Korea next week.
The Japanese policy draft also said Tokyo should enhance its ability to cope with the North Korean missile threat but did not refer to Japan's possible acquisition of the ability to hit enemy targets overseas - a controversial move which would further stretch the limits of its pacifist, post-war constitution.
In a nod to concerns overseas about Abe's hawkish stance, the draft said Japan would keep its purely defensive posture, shun nuclear arms and not become a military power.
Past governments have stretched the limits of Japan's U.S.-drafted constitution but Abe wants to go further, including by easing a self-imposed ban on exercising the right to collective self-defence, or aiding an ally under attack.


http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=hab ... eID=123839

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby sanjaykumar » 28 Nov 2013 21:54

Are the Chinese really so incompetent at political and military analysis?This is loss of face defined.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby svinayak » 28 Nov 2013 21:57

sanjaykumar wrote:Are the Chinese really so incompetent at political and military analysis?This is loss of face defined.


A Paki was boasting in a youtube comment that China and Pak together will destroy India from the face of the earth
Here we see that China PRC is unable to handle its own sovereign region very close to its coastline.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby paramu » 29 Nov 2013 04:22

China rules out air defence zone along Sino-India border

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19686 » 29 Nov 2013 05:16

China’s ‘Mystery Warriors’
Each year, the PLA gets millions of new recruits. For a few weeks anyway.

By David Logan
November 13, 2013

There’s a joke among students here at Northeastern University in China’s northeast city of Shenyang.

Every fall, it begins, America’s intelligence agencies are baffled by the sudden and drastic increase in the ranks of China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA). For a few brief weeks, the PLA’s numbers are swelled with new recruits – 6 million last year – curiously all on college campuses.

But within a month, the new recruits have vanished, nowhere to be seen. The Americans are left scratching their heads, wondering what happened to these mystery warriors and when they might reappear.

The “mystery warriors” are really just college freshmen. Every year, first-year university students all across China participate in their mandatory regimen of military training before the start of classes. The training, held either on campus or at the nearest military base, lasts a few weeks prior to the start of classes.

Students may be equipped with firearms and dispatched to a shooting range for target practice. Or they may be given gas masks and medical equipment to run an emergency response drill.

There are compulsory lecture series – closed to international students and foreign teachers – in which students are introduced to national defense strategy and the latest in Party doctrine.

The foundation of the training is its most conspicuous element: hundreds if not thousands of young students, separated into squads, clad in camouflage fatigues, and marched in formation across campus. In the early morning, they learn to stand at attention and to salute. The evening is dominated by the singing of patriotic songs and old barracks tunes from the PLA. Throughout, trainees are subjected to regular dorm inspections and pre-dawn workouts.

On many campuses, the training ends with a grand ceremony at which newly minted trainees can showcase their marching skills for school officials and military personnel. Trainees goosestep around a stadium or presenting ground.

Why is a country with a reported military 2.3 million people strong and the second highest military expenditures in the world teaching its college freshmen how to goosestep?

Some form of military training has existed in some Chinese schools since after reunification under Communist rule, although today’s incarnation was established about three decades ago. In 1985, a year that saw sweeping reforms within China’s military, a pilot university military training program was established in a few dozen schools. Since then the program has been expanded to thousands of campuses so that today nearly every one of China’s roughly 6 million college freshmen participate. Middle school and high school students also take part in a similar program during their first days at school
...

http://thediplomat.com/2013/11/chinas-mystery-warriors/

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 29 Nov 2013 07:20

China deploys fighter jets to patrol new defence zone - ToI
China on Thursday sent several fighter jets and an early warning aircraft to its newly declared air defence zone in the East China Sea as a "defensive measure" after Japan and South Korea said their military planes flew through the area in defiance of Beijing's unilateral move.

Colonel Shen Jinke said several fighter jets and an early warning aircraft had been deployed to carry out routine patrols as "a defensive measure and in line with international common practices," state-run Xinhua news agency reported.

Shen said the country's air force would remain on high alert and would take measures to deal with all air threats to protect national security.

The Air Defence Identification Zone (ADIZ) zone, announced by China last week, covers territory claimed by China, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea.

China has said all planes transiting the zone must file flight plans and identify themselves, or face "defensive emergency measures".

But Japan, South Korea and the US have all since flown military aircraft through the area.

Japanese aircraft had conducted routine "surveillance activity" over the ADIZ, a Japanese government spokesman said in Tokyo.

South Korea had also conducted a flight, the South Korean defence ministry said in Seoul.

A day earlier two giant US Stratofortress bombers flew through the AIDZ that China unilaterally declared.

The controversial zone includes disputed islands claimed by China, which calls them as the Diaoyus, but controlled by Japan, which terms them as the Senkakus.

Japanese officials did not specify when the flights happened, but confirmed the surveillance activity.

"Even since China has created this airspace defence zone, we have continued our surveillance activities as before in the East China Sea, including in the zone," Japan's government spokesman, Yoshihide Suga, said.

"We are not going to change this (activity) out of consideration to China," he said.

Under fire from the US and other countries over the ADIZ, Chinese Defence Ministry said it will consider to revoke the zone if Japan which has a similar defence zone withdraws it.

"Should the decision be retracted, we ask the Japanese side to revoke its Air Defence Identification Zone first, we will then consider their demand 44 years later," Defence Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun told reporters.

His comments came in response to Japanese Prime minister Shinzo Abe's call for China to withdraw the zone.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RajeshA » 29 Nov 2013 09:56


harbans
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby harbans » 29 Nov 2013 10:18

^ Was just about to post that..beat me to it. Astounding logic! BJP/ Modi should make it clear that any agreement with China will be revoked at this stage. This Govt has no locus standii to do such at the present time. I mean dropping a claim to ArP where not a single citizen wants to be part of China and givng Aksai Chin away. Calls for bringing firing squads back into vogue!!! I mean can we claim Beijing and say we will drop the claim on Beijing if you give Tibet to us? And then they will come grinning shamelessly that they have struck a great deal..BJP and Narendra Modi and Co. mneed to wake up and at this point simply declare any agreements signed by the Congress Govt will be considered NULL and VOID by the new govt. Good or bad. This is critical.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby JE Menon » 29 Nov 2013 10:37

Now we know who Mr. Shukla works for.

It's so transparent it's ridiculous. And not just that, unnecessary.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby devesh » 29 Nov 2013 10:47

what documents? and how the heck is the UK newspaper accessing it? who gave them the documents?

first off, how did this even pass the editor's check?

more importantly, could this be even remotely true?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby JE Menon » 29 Nov 2013 11:00

Transparent measure to initiate exactly the kind of discussion we are having here and to quietly pressure goi to stay "on side". The Brits are past masters at this. Like I said, in today's context, it's like a poker player unnecessarily showing his hand to the table in one game of a competition... They are losing their touch.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby harbans » 29 Nov 2013 11:07

15 years later if UPA 5 is there..they will come grinning with a breakthrough agreement with China that says: "China has dropped all claims on Bodh Gaya in exchange for Sikkim, Bhutan, Nepal, Assam, Upper Uttaranchal. We spent many hours negotiating this landmark agreement" Relations with China are going to improve drastically with the kind of understanding we have reached.

That is why i had earlier mentioned that for peace with China we have to increase disputed areas and not decrease them. Claim KM/Shiv Bhoomi, claim areas 100 km beyond Aksai CHin, 200 km north of ArP. Make claims. Revoke recognition of Indo-China border.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Christopher Sidor » 29 Nov 2013 15:30

It is instructive that certain foreign airlines have agreed to PRC's demands around Senkaku islands. Certain countries have objected not to the so called PRC's air defence zone in the East China Sea zone but in the manner in which it was done and the timings. In other words they do not mid PRC declaring a air defence zone just the way in which it was done.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 29 Nov 2013 19:57

Japan's Abe Vows to Remain Steadfast on China - Japan Times
Japan will remain steadfast and cooperate with other countries in addressing China’s recent establishment of an air defense identification zone covering the Senkaku Islands, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said Friday.

“We will respond firmly but in a calm manner” against China’s unilateral setting of the new flight rules, Abe was quoted by a ruling party lawmaker as telling a meeting in the prime minister’s office. “I will cooperate with allied countries, neighboring countries and international organizations.”

The lawmaker, Takeshi Iwaya of the Liberal Democratic Party, spoke to reporters after the meeting, during which he handed Abe a written LDP resolution criticizing China and urging Beijing to immediately withdraw the new measure.

Earlier in the day, Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida said government leaders hope to confirm close cooperation next week with U.S. Vice President Joseph Biden over the issue.

Biden is slated to visit Japan for three days starting Monday for talks with Abe and other officials, with the Chinese move high on the agenda.

“First we will steadily explain our views, what’s really going on regarding China’s establishment of an air defense identification zone,” Kishida told reporters. “We will then confirm the fact that Japan and the United States have steadily communicated, consulted and coordinated over the matter.”

Kishida said he hopes Biden will use such confirmation as a reference point when he visits China and South Korea immediately after his trip to Japan.

U.S. officials have said Biden will convey U.S. concerns directly to Chinese President Xi Jinping and Premier Li Keqiang over the establishment of the ADIZ.


The Chinese zone overlaps a similar zone operated by Japan in the East China Sea, where the two Asian neighbors are feuding over the ownership of the Japanese-administered Senkakus, which are called the Diaoyu in China.

Tokyo and Washington have criticized the Chinese move as a unilateral attempt to change the status quo in the waters and one that could lead to an incident or invite unintended consequences.

Regarding a Xinhua News Agency report that the Chinese air force conducted “normal air patrols” in the Chinese zone Thursday, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said Friday that the [Japanese] Self-Defense Forces will continue surveillance activities in the Japanese ADIZ.

“We will not alter our surveillance and security activities. We will do our utmost through a calm response,” Suga said at a news conference.

Also Friday, Kishida said Tokyo remains eager to hold dialogue with Beijing, saying, “Our attitude that the door to dialogue is always open remains unchanged . . . we think it’s all the more important to have dialogue under these circumstances.”

Abe has yet to hold a summit with his Chinese counterparts since he became prime minister last December, with the sovereignty dispute over the uninhabited islet group remaining the main sticking point.

Under China’s newly declared rules, aircraft flying in its air defense zone must submit flight plans to Chinese authorities. Refusal to follow instructions may lead to “defensive emergency measures” by the Chinese military.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RajeshA » 29 Nov 2013 20:13

The fact that Japan is using US to convey its "concerns" over Senkaku islands is an arrangements that suits both USA and China, de-facto establishing a duopoly, a G2 of US and China, relegating Japan to a puppet of the powers!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 29 Nov 2013 20:41

China scrambles jets after US-Japan planes enter the disputed Chinese ADZ - AP, ToI
China launched two fighter planes on Friday to investigate flights by a dozen US and Japanese reconnaissance and military planes in its newly established maritime air defence zone over the East China Sea, state media said.

The state-run China News quoted defence ministry spokesman Col Shen Jinke as saying the Chinese fighter jets identified and monitored the two US and 10 Japanese aircraft during their flights through the zone early on Friday, but made no mention of any further action.

There are questions whether China has the technical ability to fully enforce the zone due to a shortage of early warning radar aircraft and in-flight refueling capability.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 29 Nov 2013 20:50

RajeshA wrote:The fact that Japan is using US to convey its "concerns" over Senkaku islands is an arrangements that suits both USA and China, de-facto establishing a duopoly, a G2 of US and China, relegating Japan to a puppet of the powers!

RajeshA, there are a few things to consider. In international diplomacy, it is not unusual for one country to convey its message to another country through a third party. The earlier reports spoke of Japan conveying its 'concerns' directly to China through proper diplomatic channel as soon as the ADZ was established. The conveyance of the ‘message’ comes on top of the combined US-Japan air forces jets ignoring the Chinese commandments. AFAIK, it is not Japan that is avoiding a summit meeting with China, but vice versa because China thinks that it is snubbing the Japanese by doing so. Additionally, today Japan is in no way to confront China militarily all by itself unless it changes its self-imposed (and forced) defence posture, something that Abe is working on furiously. Even as it does so, it is going to take decades for it to assume a reasonable strength. During this time, it has to have an alliance with as many friendly nations as possible who are also in a similar predicament as far as China goes. Last, but not the least, it is still under US protection against foreign aggression and everybody knows that too. This situation is not going to change for a decade at least, IMO.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby sanjaykumar » 29 Nov 2013 21:07

The state-run China News quoted defence ministry spokesman Col Shen Jinke as saying the Chinese fighter jets identified and monitored the two US and 10 Japanese aircraft during their flights through the zone early on Friday, but made no mention of any further action.



This is even worse for China. Now they are committed to scramble fighters for every jalopy that ambles from three directions into the zone. The Chinese are doing the same with their coast gaurd cutters to Japan and have handed the same opportunity to Japan.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Prem » 30 Nov 2013 01:06

China deploys jets in dispute with Japan
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/41e02002 ... z2m4CELief

his is a dangerous game of chicken,” said Ian Storey, a security expert at the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore, before the Chinese revealed details of their latest fighter missions. “China is testing the limits of the US-Japanese relationship, and the message from the US and Japan has been loud and clear.”Earlier Japan said it would not hold talks with Beijing over the new air defence zone as that would amount to accepting Chinese sovereignty over the contested Senkaku Islands, known as the Diaoyu Islands in China, according to the Japanese defence minister.Barry Desker, dean of the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore, said the Chinese move amounted to an “own goal”.“While east Asian states are increasingly linked economically to China, they will be attracted to the United States politically and will strengthen bilateral ties with the US to balance China’s growing influence in the region,” Mr Desker said. “Even those sceptical of the US role in the region will acknowledge that regional support for the US policy of rebalancing will now increase.”
Last edited by Prem on 30 Nov 2013 06:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby chanakyaa » 30 Nov 2013 05:35

From RT
Japan and its US ally blasted the decision as “unacceptable” and rejected the “unilateral” declaration, saying it would create dangerous tension. However, Chinese officials gave a reminder that both countries have long had their own ADIZ, and that the Japanese never discussed theirs with their neighbor.

“If they want it revoked, then we would ask that Japan first revoke its own air defense identification zone and China will reconsider it after 44 years,” China’s Defense Ministry spokesman, Yang Yujun, said in a statement posted on the ministry’s website on Thursday.

Although, I like Chinese rebuttal, I'm not knowledgeable in Japanese air defense zone and how long it was enforced and if it was reasonable in its reach...does any one have any insights?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 30 Nov 2013 06:50

Apparently, these air defence zones are nothing new and China is entitled to have its own. However, the one difference seems to be that whereas other countries require aircraft approaching their country to identify themselves etc., China wants all aircraft passing through that zone to do the same, irrespective of whether they are approaching the Chinese territory or not. Couple this with the Chinese claims of the entire South China Sea, the provocative Chinese attitude and hegemonic ambition are clear. Of course the Chinese ADZ overlaps the Japanese as well and the disputed Senkaku, which is really the bone of contention that has prompted the Chinese to define the ADZ and the rules as they have done.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 30 Nov 2013 07:39

President's Arunachal Visit Irks China - Sachin Parashar, ToI
India and China traded another round of diplomatic blows on Friday with Beijing officially taking up with New Delhi President Pranab Mukherjee's visit to Arunachal Pradesh. While a government spokesperson in Beijing had made China's reservation public earlier in the day, China later decided to up the ante by taking up the issue bilaterally with India, much to the chagrin of authorities here [New Delhi], diplomatic sources confirmed.

According to sources, India reacted promptly by giving an appropriate response to the reservations expressed by Beijing in its objection to the visit. Indian officials, in fact, reiterated what Mukherjee said after arriving in Itanagar earlier in the day, that Arunachal Pradesh was an integral part of India. {That is not enough. We have to go beyond that}

Beijing is said to have conveyed to India that visits to Arunachal such as the ongoing one by Mukherjee were not in the interest of ties between the two countries. It said the two sides needed to work together to maintain peace and stability along the border areas. {So, Beijing is threatening that visits by the Indian leaders to Arunachal Pradesh could lead to war}

Beijing recently again issued stapled visas to two women archers from the state which prevented them from taking their flight to China at the last minute. China continues to aggressively claim Arunachal even as New Delhi describes it as an integral part of India. For China, the state is linked to the question of legitimacy of its wider claim over Tibet. China believes that Tawang's past links with Lhasa authenticate its claims over the state.

A Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson earlier in the day told a news agency that India should not complicate the border issue between the two countries. "We hope that the Indian side could meet China halfway to safeguard the overall interests of bilateral relations, refrain from taking actions that complicate the boundary question, work together with us to maintain peace and tranquility in the border areas and create conditions for boundary negotiations," the spokesperson told a news agency.

"China-India relationship maintains a sound momentum of growth, with the two sides exploring ways to solve the boundary question through friendly consultations at the special representatives' meeting,'' he added.

India though avoided responding to China's protestations in public. {Why ?} In 2009, when PM Manmohan Singh visited China, Beijing had said it was "deeply upset'' with the visit to the "disputed state''.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 30 Nov 2013 08:33

The Hindu calims the Chinese response as 'muted' - Ananth Krishnan
China on Friday issued what observers described as an unexpectedly muted response to the visit by President Pranab Mukherjee to Arunachal Pradesh — parts of which China has territorial claims on — with Beijing calling on India “to meet halfway” and “work together” to maintain peace and tranquillity along the border.

In a marked contrast from Beijing’s response to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Arunachal Pradesh in 2009, when the Chinese government said it voiced “grave concerns” and hit out at India for “creating problems,” the Foreign Ministry here issued a more measured reaction to the President’s two-day visit, which began on Friday.

“China’s position on the disputed area of the eastern section of the China-India boundary is consistent and clear-cut,” the Foreign Ministry said in a statement to The Hindu issued in response to questions.

“The China-India relationship maintains a sound momentum of growth,” the statement added, “with the two sides exploring ways to solve the boundary question through friendly consultations at the special representatives’ meeting.”

“We hope that the Indian side could meet China halfway to safeguard the overall interests of bilateral relations, refrain from taking actions that complicate the boundary question, work together with us to maintain peace and tranquillity in the border areas and create conditions for boundary negotiations.”

The statement issued on Friday, however, did not directly express opposition to the visit, only saying it hoped India “could meet China halfway” and “refrain from taking actions that complicate the boundary question.”


We are once again making a mistake of understanding the Chinese. When they say that India has to "with us to maintain peace and tranquillity in the border areas and create conditions for boundary negotiations", the Chinese are conveying several messages in a clear manner. They are saying that such visits could lead to violent Chinese reaction, that India would be held responsible for such an event, that China is working for peace and tranquility while India is not cooperating with it and so long as these unwelcome visits and utterances take place from the Indian side, China would not be interested in negotiating on the boundary issue with the Indian Special Representative.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Mahesh_R » 30 Nov 2013 15:26

Acharya wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:Are the Chinese really so incompetent at political and military analysis?This is loss of face defined.


we see that China PRC is unable to handle its own sovereign region very close to its coastline.


Sir....I have a very bad feeling with this new ADZ....
slowly everyone will follow the measure or atleast when they sit for discussion on the island..they can claim that most of the countries (if not all) have accepted their ADZ hence their claim on the islands...

I would be very happy to be proved wrong....

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RSoami » 30 Nov 2013 16:57

Mahesh_R
Even if the Japanese and the Americans accept this, it doesnt change anything. In fact it only makes other countries in the pacific south east Asia more wary of China. Technically this ADZ will ead to worsening of an already complicated relationship between japan and china.
Japan under Abe is unlikely to give any concessions. Abe has been working hard at reviving Japanese nationalist policies. He has been attempting to rework the pacifist constitution, change the roles of defence forces in Japan.
AND HE IS A SUPPORTER OF IMPROVING TIES WITH INDIA.
The Japanese emperor is visiting India. This visit should not be taken lightly. the onarchy rarely ventures out of Japan. One can see a shift in japan towards India. And Chinese policies are helping/causing this. This ADZ will further aggravate Japanese sensibilities and will further convince the Japanese to invest in India.

Regards.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Yogi_G » 30 Nov 2013 18:37

The missed Chinese response is due to the fact that China has it's hands full on it's east. Chinese have done this for long for example they signed a treaty with the Sikhs to focus on opium war with British.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby svinayak » 30 Nov 2013 22:15

Mahesh_R wrote:Sir....I have a very bad feeling with this new ADZ....
slowly everyone will follow the measure or atleast when they sit for discussion on the island..they can claim that most of the countries (if not all) have accepted their ADZ hence their claim on the islands...

I would be very happy to be proved wrong....



Just read this article on how US perceives the Asia Pacific its own backyard
Control of asia is for control of the world. Here we have countries with billions of trade fighting and inviting an outside power to enter their region.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/3 ... 63781.html


In meetings with leaders in Japan, China and South Korea, the vice president will seek to show that while the administration has been preoccupied with Mideast flare-ups and a series of domestic distractions, the U.S. remained determined to be a Pacific power.

Early in his presidency, Obama declared the U.S. was "all in" when it came to the Asia-Pacific. His administration pledged to increase its influence, resources and diplomatic outreach in the region, and to bolster the U.S. military footprint so that by 2020, 60 percent of the Navy's warships would be based there, compared with 50 percent now.

The concern was that as China came into its own as a superpower, its sway over other Asian nations would grow, too.


China came into its own as a superpower - this is another fake statement. It was allowed without any obstruction from other powers and neighbors for 40 years and trade advantage at the expense of other countries. Even Japan which invested much in China in early 90s has now seen the results of the policy of support to China and its economy.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby svinayak » 30 Nov 2013 22:23

SSridhar wrote:We are once again making a mistake of understanding the Chinese. When they say that India has to "with us to maintain peace and tranquillity in the border areas and create conditions for boundary negotiations", the Chinese are conveying several messages in a clear manner. They are saying that such visits could lead to violent Chinese reaction, that India would be held responsible for such an event, that China is working for peace and tranquility while India is not cooperating with it and so long as these unwelcome visits and utterances take place from the Indian side, China would not be interested in negotiating on the boundary issue with the Indian Special Representative.

THis chinese response to Indian internal culture and govt actions need to be ignored and also a message to be given to PRC that it does not care about the sentiments of China for Indian internal day to day life.

India has to issue similar statement on all policy of Tibet and all govt action in Tibet by PRC.
These statements are really meant to be media statements for Indian population and Indian media promptly displays it.
Using media the PRC had managed to manipulate the perception of PRC among the Indians. I meet the younger Indians who express fear of PRC just by reading some news report

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2013 04:25

Acharya wrote:India has to issue similar statement on all policy of Tibet and all govt action in Tibet by PRC.


The problem there is we were too quick to have recognized (and reiterated repeatedly over the decades) that Tibet was an autonomous region of PRC. We got nothing (or not much) in return for this huge concession apart from, of course, the point that we not only did an injustice to the Tibetans but also failed to preserve our own self interest. The GoI finds itself, therefore, in a big bind.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2013 06:42

China reiterates claim on Arunachal Pradesh - Ananth Krishnan, The Hindu

So, what happened to the same newspaper's claim yesterday that the Chinese response has been 'muted' this time ? Or, does The Hindu think that China's claim on Arunachal itself amounts to a 'muted' response because we should be glad that it did not claim the entire North East ?

China’s official Xinhua news agency on Saturday reiterated Beijing’s territorial claims on Arunachal Pradesh, coinciding with President Pranab Mukherjee’s two-day visit to the State.

In a report, Xinhua said China saw the State as being “currently under Indian illegal occupation.” “The so-called Arunachal Pradesh was established largely on the three areas of China’s Tibet — Monyul, Loyul and Lower Tsayul — currently under Indian illegal occupation,” the report said.

“These three areas located between the illegal ‘Mcmahon Line,’ and the traditional customary boundary between China and India have always been Chinese territory. In 1914, the colonialists secretly contrived the illegal ‘Mcmahon Line’ in an attempt to incorporate into India the above-mentioned three areas of Chinese territory. None of the successive Chinese governments have ever recognised this line,” it said.

The report follows a statement issued here on Friday by the Chinese Foreign Ministry, which said: “China’s position on the disputed area of the eastern section of the China-India boundary is consistent and clear-cut.”

However, the statement was less strident than China’s response to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Arunachal Pradesh in 2009, when an increasingly assertive Chinese government said it was “deeply upset” and expressed “grave concerns,” and publicly opposed the visit.

It remained unclear whether the Xinhua report was issued in response to Friday’s speech by President Pranab Mukherjee to the Arunachal Pradesh Assembly.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2013 06:50

China's Move on East China Sea May Prove Tricky: Former Indian Diplomat - Sandeep Dikshit, The Hindu
India has officially not reacted to the developing tension between Japan and China, but former diplomats and academics here [New Delhi] are hoping the parties to the dispute would step back before the situation took a turn for the worse.

Last week, China set up an air defence identification zone (ADIZ) covering the international airspace over parts of the disputed East China Sea, triggering protest from Japan. The zone includes a chain of islands called Diaoyu (in Chinese) or Senkaku (in Japanese), which are also claimed by Japan.

China expert Alka Acharya wanted the world to look at the issue from a slightly broader perspective, especially after the revelation that Japan had established its own ADIZin the same area in the late 1960s and sent military planes in recent years to shadow Chinese ones on grounds that they had entered Japan’s ADIZ.

Former diplomat Nalin Surie described the emerging confrontation as an “unfortunate situation” due to China taking over Japan as the top Asian power and Tokyo seeking to reclaim its position. The first stone in stoking the dispute was cast by Japan when it bought the islands back but China’s “one-upmanship” in setting up the ADIZ a few days back “could prove tricky.”

Another former diplomat Vivek Katju hoped the setting up of the ADIZ by China was in accordance with international norms and felt the U.S.’s signal by flying two of its bombers through the zone was “very clear.”

The ADIZ was basically being superimposed on the existing tensions over the islands. “The question we need to find out is whether this kind of decision is contravening any law. That’s not very clear but the declaration has certainly heightened the sense of tension. We will have to wait and watch more carefully,” observed Ms. Acharya.

Mr. Surie pointed out that this dispute was the previous Chinese government’s legacy but both the present President and Prime Minister of China [Xi Jinping and Li Keqiang] were in the decision-making loop at that time. He referred to his observations at a Chennai seminar that China’s actions on the islands’ issue vis-à-vis Japan and the ASEAN had been aggressive and in some respects this had reduced the room for manoeuvre for Mr. Xi and his new team.

“A stage has now been reached where China will be increasingly judged by its partners and the international community by its actions. Its rhetoric no longer carries conviction and it will no longer get the benefit of the doubt. Mr. Xi & Mr. Li will have to increasingly exercise Chinese power and influence in a responsible manner that is credible to its partners and interlocutors,” he said.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby devesh » 01 Dec 2013 07:30

the Chinese tactic of always maintaining an offensive diplomatic position has obvious advantages. there is no question in any India's mind that Arunachal is an Indian State. we are taught from the first civics course about the States of India, and Arunachal is one of them.

so when the PRC protests the Indian Head-of-State visiting that State, we are left astounded and are forced to respond to a downright ridiculous notion that we somehow need PRC's permission to have our own leaders visit AP.

in terms of psy-war, keeping a purely defensive posture against such an enemy will fail eventually, b/c the enemy can simply claim entire swathes as their territory and we are left huffing and puffing about such comically ridiculous outpourings. to the common janta, to politicians, babus, leaders, etc, this is a disadvantage b/c they cannot repay PRC in its own dime.

it's time to take another look at India's policy wrt Chinese occupied territories.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Pratyush » 01 Dec 2013 10:11

We can tell the PRC where to get off.


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