Managing Chinese Threat

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Christopher Sidor » 26 Oct 2010 12:36

^^^
Rajesh, interesting words and thoughts.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Dhiman » 26 Oct 2010 12:51

brihaspati wrote:Even the so-called string of pearls is not really a well-connected military fishnet to catch India the big-fish. China will not be able to maintain these "advance" posts. In fact I welcome these string-of-pearls for two reasons - one is that they serve useful purposes to move Indian policy along certain directions, and secondly that these "infrastructural" investments (if at all done with good quality material) will come in handy for us in the future - at least even if the construction material sort of collapse, the earth-moving etc will be some work done for us.


String of Perls are only useful as strategic posts during peacetime. In war-time they are absolutely useless, unless China starts, and GoI is lulled into gradually allowing, stationing of Chinese military assets in these pearls becuase in that case China gets an attack point south of the Himalayas. Ensuring that Chinese are devoid of any military base in IOR is critical for GoI.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Philip » 26 Oct 2010 13:53

Chinese moves to limit mineral supplies sparks struggle over rare earths• China produces 97% of the world's supply of rare earths
• China says exports quota is cut by 72% to ensure sustainability

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010 ... hs-exports

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RamaY » 26 Oct 2010 19:12

^ That 72% cut has lead to a 6time increase in the prices of those rare earth metals.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby TonyMontana » 27 Oct 2010 01:33

RajeshA wrote: My suggestions were merely directed at neighbors whose elites have shown a consistent tendency to try to undermine Indian territorial integrity, Indian sovereignty and India's security interests by inviting outside powers who threaten India. India's attitude towards neighbors is pretty much reactive (just as justice is reactive), whereas China's attitude is clearly preemptive (just as bullying is preemptive).


You are saying forward defense is a bad thing. If China allow those area to be independent, you can count on it that forces hostile to China will use them to threaten China. India has allowed her neighbours to become something that threatens her national interest. So we're suppose to follow the Indian model and try to put out the fire when it's well underway? So being reactive is justice and being preemptive, to solve the same problem, is bullying?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RajeshA » 27 Oct 2010 02:14

TonyMontana wrote:
RajeshA wrote: My suggestions were merely directed at neighbors whose elites have shown a consistent tendency to try to undermine Indian territorial integrity, Indian sovereignty and India's security interests by inviting outside powers who threaten India. India's attitude towards neighbors is pretty much reactive (just as justice is reactive), whereas China's attitude is clearly preemptive (just as bullying is preemptive).


You are saying forward defense is a bad thing. If China allow those area to be independent, you can count on it that forces hostile to China will use them to threaten China. India has allowed her neighbours to become something that threatens her national interest. So we're suppose to follow the Indian model and try to put out the fire when it's well underway? So being reactive is justice and being preemptive, to solve the same problem, is bullying?


Exactly! because the world does not revolve around the interests of the Hans only. Other people have rights to exist and to flourish, and until they have not done anything wrong to you, you don't have the right to touch them.

You touch them today, enforce your culture onto them, occupy them, and tomorrow nobody would sympathize with the Hans if Shanghai goes up in a mushroom cloud. You lose your right to live the moment you take somebody else's life. You lose your right to freedom the moment you take away another man's freedom.

Karma is a bitch. Americans are finding out now. Chinese will also learn it soon enough.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby TonyMontana » 27 Oct 2010 02:49

RajeshA wrote: Exactly! because the world does not revolve around the interests of the Hans only. Other people have rights to exist and to flourish, and until they have not done anything wrong to you, you don't have the right to touch them.

You touch them today, enforce your culture onto them, occupy them, and tomorrow nobody would sympathize with the Hans if Shanghai goes up in a mushroom cloud. You lose your right to live the moment you take somebody else's life. You lose your right to freedom the moment you take away another man's freedom.

Karma is a bitch. Americans are finding out now. Chinese will also learn it soon enough.


Yes. Yes. Very very said. Very honourable. And righteous. If only we can change human nature huh? Competition for limited resources and all that jazz. If the world can work like you propose, then I bet communism is a good idea too. But alas. We live in the real world.

//On a side note, the Indian concept of Karma facinates me. You believe it so much that, IMHO, some posters on BRF plan strategies around it. Karma will sort out China. Karma will give India what she deserves. Let Karma do the work.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Leonard » 27 Oct 2010 02:54

You are saying forward defense is a bad thing. If China allow those area to be independent, you can count on it that forces hostile to China will use them to threaten China. India has allowed her neighbours to become something that threatens her national interest. So we're suppose to follow the Indian model and try to put out the fire when it's well underway? So being reactive is justice and being preemptive, to solve the same problem, is bullying?


Vow -- such specious Logic !!

1. Japan attacked China during WW2 -- Yet China has not attacked and Occupied Japan .. :oops:

2. Mongols over-ran China --- But But Mongolia is Independent ... :oops:

3. Please entertain us ==> When did the Tibetans attack China ?
Did they attack using "Buddhism" to over power the Confucians or Daoists ?

What did they use ? Yaks ?

4. Why Did China - hand over Nuclear Weapons to Pakistan ?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby TonyMontana » 27 Oct 2010 03:00

Leonard wrote: Vow -- such specious Logic !!

1. Japan attacked China during WW2 -- Yet China has not attacked and Occupied Japan .. :oops:


China was weakened by a declining empire. We did not have the capability, then.

Leonard wrote:2. Mongols over-ran China --- But But Mongolia is Independent ... :oops:


Again. Historically, China was during a disunity period. Current Mongolia is used as a buffer against Russia. Attacking it today will provoke Russia. Bad for business.

Leonard wrote:3. Please entertain us ==> When did the Tibetans attack China ?
Did they attack using "Buddhism" to over power the Confucians or Daoists ?

What did they use ? Yaks ?



Tibet, by nature of it's geography is vital to the security of China. Water, highground, resources..etc
Tibetans didn't attack China. But people might use tibet as a launching pad for attack on China. Better safe then sorry.

Leonard wrote:4. Why Did China - hand over Nuclear Weapons to Pakistan ?


To check India of cause. Without nuclear weapons, Pakistan would've been over ran by India many times. India by the nature of her size and historical regional influence and geography is a future threat to China. Proactive vs reactive.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby svinayak » 27 Oct 2010 03:18

Tibet, by nature of it's geography is vital to the security of India. Water, highground, resources..etc
Tibetans are culturally close to Indians. But people might use tibet as a launching pad for attack on India. Better safe then sorry.
China by the nature of her size and historical regional influence and geography is a future threat to India

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby paramu » 27 Oct 2010 03:36

TonyMontana wrote:On a side note, the Indian concept of Karma facinates me. You believe it so much that, IMHO, some posters on BRF plan strategies around it. Karma will sort out China. Karma will give India what she deserves. Let Karma do the work.

It won't be fun when that happens. :mrgreen: When times are good you might think that it will continue like this for ever, but never lasts.

BTW, believing in Karma doesn't mean that Indians should stop doing their part of the duty.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby JwalaMukhi » 27 Oct 2010 03:50

paramu wrote:It won't be fun when that happens. :mrgreen: When times are good you might think that it will continue like this for ever, but never lasts.

BTW, believing in Karma doesn't mean that Indians should stop doing their part of the duty.

Actually believing in Karma means that Indians should do their part of the duty. i.e., karma essentially means cause and effect have a relationship. Hence, to have a desired effect, seed of the cause has to be sown. ie., IOW, karma is not something passive. It is extremely active, which advocates sow well to reap well. If one assumes it is passive effect, it means lethargy and indolence is being sown to reap destruction and destitution as fruits.

A technique or a tool is mistakenly assumed to yield results in all situations, though it might have borne fruit in one particular instance. The liberal application of this tool everywhere will be the blind side (which manifests as Karma) to yield undesirable outcome in other different situations.

For example, converting everyone to Han, so that it guarantees servile obedience across the board in quest for expansion by the CCP will back fire. What worked with some of the areas, shall not work in some other areas such as Tibet. But the hubris of one track Hanification will overwhelm the Karma credit. Hence, Karma is a female dog (as wise Shivas Regual pronounced the vakkya long long back. I think -sorry if mistaken) is very apt.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RajeshA » 27 Oct 2010 04:00

TonyMontana wrote://On a side note, the Indian concept of Karma facinates me. You believe it so much that, IMHO, some posters on BRF plan strategies around it. Karma will sort out China. Karma will give India what she deserves. Let Karma do the work.


India is the bania and looks after the Karma accounts also. :wink: . Karma is a useful proxy.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby brihaspati » 27 Oct 2010 04:09

TonyMontana wrote:
RajeshA wrote: My suggestions were merely directed at neighbors whose elites have shown a consistent tendency to try to undermine Indian territorial integrity, Indian sovereignty and India's security interests by inviting outside powers who threaten India. India's attitude towards neighbors is pretty much reactive (just as justice is reactive), whereas China's attitude is clearly preemptive (just as bullying is preemptive).


You are saying forward defense is a bad thing. If China allow those area to be independent, you can count on it that forces hostile to China will use them to threaten China. India has allowed her neighbours to become something that threatens her national interest. So we're suppose to follow the Indian model and try to put out the fire when it's well underway? So being reactive is justice and being preemptive, to solve the same problem, is bullying?


Look at it the other way. So China "pre-empts" potential threats long before they happen by gradually over-running its immediate neighbourhood. This means its territory constantly expands - for what was once frontierland becomes overrun (non-independent according to you which means they have lost their sovereignty to China) and therefore becomes "China". Then the neighbourhod of the previous neighbourhood becomes a potential threat by the same logic, and the cycle has to be repeated endlessly. So only the world is the limit and unless the entire world loses its independence to China - China will never feel secure? And you are batting for such a justification? What better way to provide a rationale for this thread! :D

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby TonyMontana » 27 Oct 2010 04:34

Acharya wrote:Tibet, by nature of it's geography is vital to the security of India. Water, highground, resources..etc
Tibetans are culturally close to Indians. But people might use tibet as a launching pad for attack on India. Better safe then sorry.
China by the nature of her size and historical regional influence and geography is a future threat to India


Touche! Lucky we got there first huh?

paramu wrote: It won't be fun when that happens. :mrgreen: When times are good you might think that it will continue like this for ever, but never lasts.


The Chinese are well aware of the cyclical nature of our history.

paramu wrote:BTW, believing in Karma doesn't mean that Indians should stop doing their part of the duty.


I agree. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I think some Indians, including some on BRF thinks otherwise. I hear a lot of "India deserves".

JwalaMukhi wrote:
....


Very nice analysis. A pleasure to read. Always good to have concepts explained by orginators.

brihaspati wrote: Look at it the other way. So China "pre-empts" potential threats long before they happen by gradually over-running its immediate neighbourhood. This means its territory constantly expands - for what was once frontierland becomes overrun (non-independent according to you which means they have lost their sovereignty to China) and therefore becomes "China". Then the neighbourhod of the previous neighbourhood becomes a potential threat by the same logic, and the cycle has to be repeated endlessly. So only the world is the limit and unless the entire world loses its independence to China - China will never feel secure? And you are batting for such a justification? What better way to provide a rationale for this thread! :D


Look. I probrablly made myself sound more blood thirsty then I intended. Historically China was always a defensive nation. We build a pretty big wall for crying out loud. The world, for a long time was China, to us. I don't forsee China getting any bigger in anytime soon. Maybe mongolia and a bit of the Russian far east. :mrgreen: But not much more. What are we gonna do with the sub-continent or central asia? It's better to have submissive countries that you pay off. Instead of out right annexation. Just good business.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby paramu » 27 Oct 2010 05:19

TonyMontana wrote:The Chinese are well aware of the cyclical nature of our history.

Well... then they haven't learnt anything. When times are good for China, they should work hard to earn friends and not enemies.

TonyM wrote:I agree. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I think some Indians, including some on BRF thinks otherwise. I hear a lot of "India deserves".

Indians do admit that India deserves some bad lessons- again as a payback for its Karma. But they don't say that India shouldn't do anything to fix that.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Christopher Sidor » 27 Oct 2010 12:12

TonyMontana wrote:
Acharya wrote:Tibet, by nature of it's geography is vital to the security of India. Water, highground, resources..etc
Tibetans are culturally close to Indians. But people might use tibet as a launching pad for attack on India. Better safe then sorry.
China by the nature of her size and historical regional influence and geography is a future threat to India


Touche! Lucky we got there first huh?

Chinese may be the first, but we will eventually have an independent Tibet. Let us face some facts, Soviet Union, another single-party state, also went through some fantastic economic development in 1950-60s. See what happened to them. The current state of China is an aberration rather than the norm. We will see it shrink, if not on its own, then with India's actions. Time is on Indias side and not on China. We just have to make sure that we dont accept the current LAC as the international border. Insist on the MacMohan Line.

TonyMontana wrote:
brihaspati wrote: Look at it the other way. So China "pre-empts" potential threats long before they happen by gradually over-running its immediate neighbourhood. This means its territory constantly expands - for what was once frontierland becomes overrun (non-independent according to you which means they have lost their sovereignty to China) and therefore becomes "China". Then the neighbourhod of the previous neighbourhood becomes a potential threat by the same logic, and the cycle has to be repeated endlessly. So only the world is the limit and unless the entire world loses its independence to China - China will never feel secure? And you are batting for such a justification? What better way to provide a rationale for this thread! :D


Look. I probrablly made myself sound more blood thirsty then I intended. Historically China was always a defensive nation. We build a pretty big wall for crying out loud. The world, for a long time was China, to us. I don't forsee China getting any bigger in anytime soon. Maybe mongolia and a bit of the Russian far east. :mrgreen: But not much more. What are we gonna do with the sub-continent or central asia? It's better to have submissive countries that you pay off. Instead of out right annexation. Just good business.


Defensive nation? Whom are you kidding? China built a big wall due to China's own insecurities. And building a wall is no sign of being a defensive nation. If it were, than the FSU and GDR were defensive nations because they built the Berlin wall.
Maybe Mongolia today. Russian Far East tomorrow. Next week Taiwan/Korea. Next month some south east Asian countries. And so on. Oh my gosh, sounds like some of the Nippon crazies of 1930-40s. They also wanted a complaint Manchurian. You know just for raw material and good business. But since the yanks cut off their oil supply, they had to invade south east Asia, just so that their occupation of Manchuria could continue. Later, post world war II, they tried to dress it up as an action against communism. You know China is acting just like the Nippon crazies. But that is to be expected, after all even the Chinese economic model is in fact the post world war II Japanese economic model on steroids.

I only hope that by the time china realizes its mistakes it is not too late. I hope that all the gains that the chinese have made till date are not in vain. I have nothing against the Chinese individual per se. But I do have everything against China.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby ravit » 27 Oct 2010 13:13

Visa row between India, China ahead of Singh-Jiabao meet
Chinese foreign office spokesman Ma Zhaoxu said on Tuesday: "As for the Indian Kashmir visa, our policy is consistent and has stayed unchanged."


Now what will the PM say to Chinese in the meeting?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Christopher Sidor » 27 Oct 2010 13:43

^^^
Our policy has not been unchanged. That is a fact. We have consistently given up more and got nothing to show for it. And note the words "Indian Kashmir". Here a subtle distinction is being drawn between the various Kashmir's. Anybody else need any more proof that we are facing a threat from across the border and need to meet it?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby RajeshA » 27 Oct 2010 13:47

In diplomacy you have to treat the other, the way the other is intent on treating you.

Make Tibet a disputed region, and give stapled-visas to Tibetans.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby aditya » 27 Oct 2010 15:53

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... itored.htm

China shot down India's new Phalcon


The aircraft had crashed within the Indian territory due to an engine failure. However, the blog, quoting reports in the US and Russia, comes out with a claim that the Indian plane was shot down by a Chinese air defence unit; notable is that the claim is not direct, but is based on foreign reports.

Also, according to the blog, US press reports have felt that on the basis of signs seen by them, in particular the downplaying of the incident by India, it could be estimated that the crashed aircraft was not a big transport plane as explained by Indian military, but was India's first early warning Phalcon aircraft.


A report from the time:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wreck ... nd/474132/

The IAF Eastern Command in Shillong released the names of seven IAF crew members and six Army personnel who died in the mishap: Wing Commander Gitesh Jit Singh Butalia, Wing Commander P K Saji, Squadron Leader P Siddharth, Squadron Leader Manash Mishra, Flight Lieutenant Varun Kumar, Master Warrant Officer Ramesh, Aircraft Attendant Sanjay Kumar, Gunners V Singh, K Kumar, S Kumar, Naik B S Nanwhegh, Sepoy A K Tirkey and Radio Mechanic R Wangchuk.


[Corrected editing mistake]
Last edited by aditya on 27 Oct 2010 20:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Juggi G » 27 Oct 2010 16:15

Originally Posted by dinesha in Indian Missiles and Munitions Thread

Northeast Rebels ‘Spy’ for China
The Telegraph - Calcutta

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby shiv » 27 Oct 2010 16:53

aditya wrote:http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/oct/27/slide-show-1-here-is-why-chinese-blogs-must-be-monitored.htm

China shot down India's new Phalcon


The aircraft had crashed within the Indian territory due to an engine failure. However, the blog, quoting reports in the US and Russia, comes out with a claim that the Indian plane was shot down by a Chinese air defence unit; notable is that the claim is not direct, but is based on foreign reports.

Also, according to the blog, US press reports have felt that on the basis of signs seen by them, in particular the downplaying of the incident by India, it could be estimated that the crashed aircraft was not a big transport plane as explained by Indian military, but was India's first early warning Phalcon aircraft.


A report from the time:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/wreck ... nd/474132/

The IAF Eastern Command in Shillong released the names of seven IAF crew members and six Army personnel who died in the mishap: Wing Commander Gitesh Jit Singh Butalia, Wing Commander P K Saji, Squadron Leader P Siddharth, Squadron Leader Manash Mishra, Flight Lieutenant Varun Kumar, Master Warrant Officer Ramesh, Aircraft Attendant Sanjay Kumar, Gunners V Singh, K Kumar, S Kumar, Naik B S Nanwhegh, Sepoy A K Tirkey and Radio Mechanic R Wangchuk.


I went through those old reports via my Uncle google. Some reports say that 2 villagers saw the plane explode in the sky. But others say that they saw a ball of fire in the sky and heard an explosion.

This was hilly terrain and all 14 bodies were found soon. If a plane explodes in teh air the wreckage gets scattered over a huge area and finding the bodies soon would have been a poblem. Unlikley that it "blew up in the air"

We need to look out for cheeni stories like this and start cooking up our on..

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SwamyG » 27 Oct 2010 20:13

China's Rise, India's Challenge

At the global level, the rhetoric is all about cooperation, and indeed the two sides have worked together on climate change, global trade negotiations and demanding a restructuring of global financial institutions in view of the global economy's shifting center of gravity. At the bilateral level, however, mounting tensions reached an impasse last year, when China took its territorial dispute with India all the way to the Asian Development Bank. There China blocked India's application for a loan that included money for development projects in the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh,which China continues to claim as part of its own territory. Also, thesuggestion by the Chinese to the US Pacific fleet commander last year that the Indian Ocean should be recognized as a Chinese sphere of influence[/color] has raised hackles in New Delhi. China's lack of support for the US-India civilian nuclear energy cooperation pact, which it tried to block at the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), and its pro-Pakistan position on anti-India terrorist groups operating on Pakistani soil, including the orchestrators of the November 2008 Mumbai attacks, have further strained ties.



Pakistan, of course, has always been a crucial foreign policy asset for China, but with India's rise and US-India rapprochement, its role in China's grand strategy is bound to grow even further. Not surprisingly, recent revelations about China's shift away from a three-decades' old cautious approach on Jammu and Kashmir, its increasing military presence in Pakistan, planned infrastructure linking Xinjiang and Gwadar, issuing stapled visas to residents of Jammu and Kashmir and supplying nuclear reactors to Pakistan, all confirm a new intensity behind China's old strategy of using Pakistan to secure its interests in the region.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby ramana » 27 Oct 2010 20:30

Aditya, Why did you bold only one name? What is the significance? Try to be more clear to avoid subsequent queries.

Thanks, ramana

PS: Once you do that I'll post my views.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby aditya » 27 Oct 2010 20:40

shiv wrote:I went through those old reports via my Uncle google. Some reports say that 2 villagers saw the plane explode in the sky. But others say that they saw a ball of fire in the sky and heard an explosion.


Sorry if this sounds stupid, but could the ball of fire be a missile?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby shiv » 27 Oct 2010 21:10

aditya wrote:
shiv wrote:I went through those old reports via my Uncle google. Some reports say that 2 villagers saw the plane explode in the sky. But others say that they saw a ball of fire in the sky and heard an explosion.


Sorry if this sounds stupid, but could the ball of fire be a missile?

Could be djinn also. Could be a ball of flame that rises when a plane hits the ground. Depends on how much self doubt one wants to have about India and confidence about China. Or vice versa.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Lalmohan » 27 Oct 2010 21:32

you missed out ball lightening, as in tintin and the incas

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Prem » 27 Oct 2010 23:21

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... Japan.html
Tokyo film festival 'becomes shouting match between China, Taiwan and Japan'

Representatives of the Chinese film industry reportedly triggered the dispute on Saturday evening by demanding the Japanese organisers of the event change the name "Taiwan" to "China Taiwan" or "Chinese Taipei." When the Taiwanese delegation refused to back down and the Japanese organisers declined to change the name, the Chinese said they would boycott the festival and withdraw the nine films that had been scheduled to be screened. Prudential's Thiam rules out big changes to structureJiang Qing, head of the Chinese delegation, reportedly shouted "Taiwan is Chinese" during the argument. Wu Den-yih, the Taiwanese premier, said the Chinese had been arrogant and "made a serious mistake, reverting to the rudeness and irrationality of the past." In a statement, Taiwan's Presidential Office said China must change its attitude towards Taiwan's participation in international cultural events and said the protest had hurt the feelings of the island's people and will damage the development of relations. The incident may have been equally designed to embarrass the Japanese hosts of the annual film festival.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby AKalam » 27 Oct 2010 23:38

TonyMontana wrote:
Acharya wrote:Tibet, by nature of it's geography is vital to the security of India. Water, highground, resources..etc
Tibetans are culturally close to Indians. But people might use tibet as a launching pad for attack on India. Better safe then sorry.
China by the nature of her size and historical regional influence and geography is a future threat to India


Touche! Lucky we got there first huh?

paramu wrote: It won't be fun when that happens. :mrgreen: When times are good you might think that it will continue like this for ever, but never lasts.


The Chinese are well aware of the cyclical nature of our history.

paramu wrote:BTW, believing in Karma doesn't mean that Indians should stop doing their part of the duty.


I agree. But, correct me if I'm wrong, I think some Indians, including some on BRF thinks otherwise. I hear a lot of "India deserves".

JwalaMukhi wrote:
....


Very nice analysis. A pleasure to read. Always good to have concepts explained by orginators.

brihaspati wrote: Look at it the other way. So China "pre-empts" potential threats long before they happen by gradually over-running its immediate neighbourhood. This means its territory constantly expands - for what was once frontierland becomes overrun (non-independent according to you which means they have lost their sovereignty to China) and therefore becomes "China". Then the neighbourhod of the previous neighbourhood becomes a potential threat by the same logic, and the cycle has to be repeated endlessly. So only the world is the limit and unless the entire world loses its independence to China - China will never feel secure? And you are batting for such a justification? What better way to provide a rationale for this thread! :D


Look. I probrablly made myself sound more blood thirsty then I intended. Historically China was always a defensive nation. We build a pretty big wall for crying out loud. The world, for a long time was China, to us. I don't forsee China getting any bigger in anytime soon. Maybe mongolia and a bit of the Russian far east. :mrgreen: But not much more. What are we gonna do with the sub-continent or central asia? It's better to have submissive countries that you pay off. Instead of out right annexation. Just good business.


And there is something called imperial overstretch, Hans would be lucky to keep their foothold in Xinjiang and Tibet, Mongolia and Russian Far East would remain in the dreams. Arrogance is not a positive sign, you never know what future has in store, the ice can get thinner before you know it - if I were you, I would tread more lightly and gently.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby naren » 27 Oct 2010 23:54

TonyMontana wrote:Tibet, by nature of it's geography is vital to the security of China. Water, highground, resources..etc
Tibetans didn't attack China. But people might use tibet as a launching pad for attack on China. Better safe then sorry.


Highground ? :shock: :roll: Chinese really do overstretch Some Zoo.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby svinayak » 28 Oct 2010 00:06

Christopher Sidor wrote:[ Tibet, by nature of it's geography is vital to the security of India. Water, highground, resources..etc
Tibetans are culturally close to Indians. But people might use tibet as a launching pad for attack on India. Better safe then sorry.
China by the nature of her size and historical regional influence and geography is a future threat to India

Touche! Lucky we got there first huh?


Chinese may be the first, but we will eventually have an independent Tibet. Let us face some facts, Soviet Union, another single-party state, also went through some fantastic economic development in 1950-60s. See what happened to them. The current state of China is an aberration rather than the norm. We will see it shrink, if not on its own, then with India's actions. Time is on Indias side and not on China. We just have to make sure that we dont accept the current LAC as the international border. Insist on the MacMohan Line.


China may be first. But they dont know what is the real Tibet and have problems of integration.
So they may be the first to vacate Tibet. China has to withdraw to its original size.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby TonyMontana » 28 Oct 2010 02:19

Christopher Sidor wrote:Maybe Mongolia today. Russian Far East tomorrow. Next week Taiwan/Korea. Next month some south east Asian countries. And so on. Oh my gosh, sounds like some of the Nippon crazies of 1930-40s. They also wanted a complaint Manchurian. You know just for raw material and good business. But since the yanks cut off their oil supply, they had to invade south east Asia, just so that their occupation of Manchuria could continue. Later, post world war II, they tried to dress it up as an action against communism. You know China is acting just like the Nippon crazies. But that is to be expected, after all even the Chinese economic model is in fact the post world war II Japanese economic model on steroids.


That's one way to look at it. Or you can look at it as the Peaceful Consolidation of The East Asian Continent.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Prasad » 28 Oct 2010 02:22

I'm terribly sorry but couldn't help but :rotfl: :rotfl: at that. Peaceful consolidation of ethnic minorities and peaceful establishment of Han overlordship? Peace indeed!

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat o

Postby naren » 28 Oct 2010 04:32

Bhy dis the chinese when they are peacefully consolidating East Asia onlee... like the imperial Japanese. Rape of Nanking - serf emancipation onlee.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby chandrabhan » 28 Oct 2010 08:01

ravit wrote:Visa row between India, China ahead of Singh-Jiabao meet
Chinese foreign office spokesman Ma Zhaoxu said on Tuesday: "As for the Indian Kashmir visa, our policy is consistent and has stayed unchanged."


Now what will the PM say to Chinese in the meeting?


Here is what MMS will say about this. "We are neighbors and China is our biggest trading partner. There is room for growth for both China and India." I will be surprised if he has not already said that. Had I known during my college days when MMS used to take guest lectures once in a while (Delhi school of economics) that he is going to become prime minister, I would prepared my own application for the post and joined NSUI (Sushmita dev, Kamalkant sharma and gang).

If I say anything more, I may get a warning and again I will have to go in a hiatus like before. There seems to be no consistency of purpose and intent from MMS. One moment he acknowledges the Chinese intent and actions to "Keep India in a lower orbit" and other minute, "You don't want to recognise J&K as India's part by issuing normal visas, No problem, both of us can still grow together".

Either this is utter 'Chankian' as the Messiah Zaid Kazzab hamid used to say or utter stupid. I am more convinced about the later.
Here is my stepwise escalation solution..

1. Start using the term Indo-Tibet borders and their historical peace in official releases(China being a new entity that is trying to become an interested party)

2. Stapled visa to all Han Chinese who have ever visited Occupied territories of tibet. Tibetans continue to get normal visas

3. No contracts/business to Han companies involved in any business in Tibet

4. Buy artillery today evening - Screw the testing, It's better to have some artillery than to fight with rocks.

5. Buy airlift capabilities - Add helicopter transport & gunships in a time bound fashion (6 months)

6. Allow Tiawan to open up missions in Chanakyapuri

7. Quietly give Brahmos/Prithvi to Vietnam - By january they should have shiny launchers on 2 of their boats.

8. Can we get a diplomatic coup by getting a base in Mangolia? Buy it or bribe our way through. Mangolia will give us a foothold so close to beijing that empellol Hu will start wetting his pants again.

Guru Govind singhji said, "Koi kisi to Raj na dai hai, Jo mile nij bal se mil hai" MMS seems to have forgotten the bani of revered guru.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby chandrabhan » 28 Oct 2010 08:22

TonyMontana wrote:
Leonard wrote: Vow -- such specious Logic !!

1. Japan attacked China during WW2 -- Yet China has not attacked and Occupied Japan .. :oops:


China was weakened by a declining empire. We did not have the capability, then.

Leonard wrote:2. Mongols over-ran China --- But But Mongolia is Independent ... :oops:


Again. Historically, China was during a disunity period. Current Mongolia is used as a buffer against Russia. Attacking it today will provoke Russia. Bad for business.

Leonard wrote:3. Please entertain us ==> When did the Tibetans attack China ?
Did they attack using "Buddhism" to over power the Confucians or Daoists ?

What did they use ? Yaks ?





Tonyji,
For all your gyan and bluster on China, I have a small question. When will CPC stop creating these myths about chinese empire? There was no such thing as empire. The so called empire existed behind that wall onlee. The current regime has extended the boundaries some thousands of miles ahead of that wall.

Creating these stories of mythical empire which was nowhere outside that wall, you are creating an army of delusional citizens opiated on these myths.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Christopher Sidor » 28 Oct 2010 11:26

TonyMontana wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:Maybe Mongolia today. Russian Far East tomorrow. Next week Taiwan/Korea. Next month some south east Asian countries. And so on. Oh my gosh, sounds like some of the Nippon crazies of 1930-40s. They also wanted a complaint Manchurian. You know just for raw material and good business. But since the yanks cut off their oil supply, they had to invade south east Asia, just so that their occupation of Manchuria could continue. Later, post world war II, they tried to dress it up as an action against communism. You know China is acting just like the Nippon crazies. But that is to be expected, after all even the Chinese economic model is in fact the post world war II Japanese economic model on steroids.


That's one way to look at it. Or you can look at it as the Peaceful Consolidation of The East Asian Continent.

Peacefull ?? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
One serious question, what exactly will be the boundary of this so called "East Asian Continent"? Or will it be an ever expanding entity?
And if the world, including China, did not take it too lightly the ever expanding Nippon or Nazi or British empires, why would the world, excluding China, take this so called "Peaceful Consolidation of The East Asian Continent" any lightly?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby shyam » 28 Oct 2010 11:47

Fearing "peaceful expansion of China", the cruel Dalai Lama had to take refuge in India. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Oct 2010 12:09

the boundaries were defined by the first yuan emperor
namely... "all lands from sunrise to sunset"
now who was the first yuan emperor?
why, it was the great khan kubilai, grandson of genghiz, and conqueror of the Ch'in and Sung empires (that had already unraveled following the decline of the T'ang empire)

the claim for these boundaries has never been rescinded by successor regimes


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