Managing Chinese Threat

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 23 Nov 2013 10:22

alexis wrote:Garg,

It was a herculean mistake to condone China's occupation of Tibet. We should never cede any more to China.


This mistake has been committed because India's leadership considered itself much weaker (militarily) compared with China. It was a rational decision.

You must understand one thing - India was under foreign rule for 800+ years. India will not become militarily strong suddenly, as if by magic. It will take time and a lot of conscious effort.

It is necessary for India to avoid wars and turmoil that can turn the clock back on India's progress.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19686 » 23 Nov 2013 10:27

Garg wrote:I see a pervasive anti-China statement here. So I want to offer a few facts:

Fact 1: China is a next door neighbour. This cannot change. Any rational person would want to keep good relations with its next door neighbour.

Fact 2: China is a major economy and major military power. There is far more to gain from peaceful coexistence.

Fact 3: There is no historical basis for enmity between China and India. The current mistrust has much to do with Tibet than any natural or long-standing problem between the two nations.

It is better if India starts treating Tibet as part of China (as it says officially) and stops worrying about roads and other infrastructure being built there.

I am just a very concerned citizen. There is NO benefit in growing enmity between these two very large Asian nations. Waste of money in defending cold/barren lands at stupendous heights is not a sign of rationality.

You display an appalling lack of knowledge about history of both India & China.

What is common between Tibet & India?

Are you serious?

Well how about you start with this thing called Vajrayana and see where it originated.

Next I suggest you read up on legalism & Han imperialism.

Documented for fellows like you here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6402

Also suggest reading:

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/20 ... opolitics/

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/20 ... beginning/

Destruction of Indic Civilization in Central Asia

http://www.oocities.org/somasushma/tarim.html

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=211&start=40#p23896

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=211&start=40#p23900

Read up before wasting peoples time by posting nonsense.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 23 Nov 2013 10:31

rsingh wrote:
Garg wrote:I see a pervasive anti-China statement here. So I want to offer a few facts:

Fact 1: China is a next door neighbour. This cannot change. Any rational person would want to keep good relations with its next door neighbour.

Fact 2: China is a major economy and major military power. There is far more to gain from peaceful coexistence.

Fact 3: There is no historical basis for enmity between China and India. The current mistrust has much to do with Tibet than any natural or long-standing problem between the two nations.

It is better if India starts treating Tibet as part of China (as it says officially) and stops worrying about roads and other infrastructure being built there.

I am just a very concerned citizen. There is NO benefit in growing enmity between these two very large Asian nations. Waste of money in defending cold/barren lands at stupendous heights is not a sign of rationality.


Fact 1: Same applies to China which has land dispute with almost all of the neighbours.
Fact 2: Pray explain how India gain from a powerful buly next door.
Fact 3: Going by your logic we have to take fight to Turkey and Mangolia?
As for " I am just a very......blah blah" so do you want to wait n fight it out in the warm and fertile plains of UP and Punjab?


1) You must speak for your land disputes and forget about others. The OTHERS will handle their disputes themselves.
2) There are bullies everywhere. Even my next door neighbour is a bully. I manage the situation. Have not changed my house due to that.
3) Did you understand my logic - NO. Do not twist my words.

The war with China will be DISASTROUS and FUTILE. I can assure you there is NOTHING for India in a war with China.

Can China be managed by India. The answer is YES. India and China are NOT natural enemies. They may be competitors but not enemies.

Whenever there is unrest in Tibet, Chinese become uncomfortable about India. I know in my heart that India is NOT the reason for any problem in Tibet. India does not cause unrest in Tibet. However since Dalai Lama lives in India, it causes suspicion.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 23 Nov 2013 10:57

Surasena wrote:
What is common between Tibet & India?

Are you serious?

Well how about you start with this thing called Vajrayana and see where it originated.

Next I suggest you read up on legalism & Han imperialism.

Read up before wasting peoples time by posting nonsense.


Wow!

China and India are different and have evolved differently. There is no doubt about that. Anyway I read the material you pointed to just to gain your perspective.

a) Your point is Tibet is Buddhist and Buddhism originated in India.

I would say this is not enough reason to say Indians and Tibetans are similar. We are talking about political involvement of India in Tibet. There is no history of Indian kings (Hindu or Muslim) ruling in Tibet in the last 1000 years.

b) Han imperialism

I am unable to understand your point here. You would perhaps elaborate how it relates to Tibet issue in context of India?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19686 » 23 Nov 2013 11:12

There is this place called Arunachal Pradesh that your Han brothers claim, I will leave it up to you to figure out how that relates to Han imperialism.

It does not matter whether Hindu kings ruled there or not, what matters is that they were under our cultural influence more than the Han and several of our major rivers have origins there which the Han are trying to divert.

Southern parts of East Turkestan were ruled by several Hindu kings, so you willing to fight for that now?

BTW Lalitaditya Muktapida conquered parts of Central Asia & Western regions of Tibet and he was certainly a Hindu king who also halted the Muslim invasions of North India.

That you don't understand how Han imperialism would play a role in our relations tells me all I need to know, so I won't waste any more of your time or mine after this.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19686 » 23 Nov 2013 20:49

China establishes 'air-defence zone' over East China Sea

China has demarcated an "air-defence identification zone" over an area of the East China Sea, covering islands that are also claimed by Japan.

China's defence ministry said aircraft entering the zone must obey its rules or face "emergency defensive measures".

The islands, known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China, are a source of rising tension between the countries.

Japan lodged a strong protest over what it said was an "escalation".

"Setting up such airspace unilaterally escalates the situations surrounding Senkaku islands and has danger of leading to an unexpected situation," Japan's foreign ministry said in a statement.


Taiwan, which also claims the Diaoyu/Senkaku islands, expressed regret at the move and promised that the military would take measure to protect national security.

'No specific target'
In its statement, the Chinese defence ministry said aircraft must report a flight plan, "maintain two-way radio communications", and "respond in a timely and accurate manner" to identification inquiries.

"China's armed forces will adopt defensive emergency measures to respond to aircraft that do not co-operate in the identification or refuse to follow the instructions," said the statement.

It said the zone came into effect from 10:00 local time (02:00GMT) on Saturday.

State news agency Xinhua showed a map on its website covering a wide area of the East China Sea, including regions very close to South Korea and Japan.

Responding to questions about the zone on an official state website, a defence ministry spokesman, Yang Yujun, said China set up the area "with the aim of safeguarding state sovereignty, territorial land and air security, and maintaining flight order".

"It is not directed against any specific country or target," he said, adding that China "has always respected the freedom of over-flight in accordance with international law".

"Normal flights by international airliners in the East China Sea air-defence identification zone will not be affected in any way."

The islands have been a source of tension between China and Japan for decades.

In 2012, the Japanese government bought three of the islands from their Japanese owner, sparking mass protests in Chinese cities.

Since then, Chinese ships have repeatedly sailed in and out of what Japan says are its territorial waters.

In September this year, Japan said it would shoot down unmanned aircraft in Japanese airspace after an unmanned Chinese drone flew close to the disputed islands.

China said that any attempt by Japan to shoot down Chinese aircraft would constitute "an act of war".

Last month Japan's defence minister, Itsunori Onodera, said China's behaviour over the disputed East China Sea islands was jeopardising peace.

BBC World Service East Asia editor Charles Scanlon says the confrontation over the small chain of uninhabited islands is made more intractable by conflicting claims for potentially rich energy resources on the sea bed.

But the issue has now become a nationalist touchstone in both countries, making it hard for either side to be seen to back down, he says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25062525

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby rsingh » 23 Nov 2013 21:35

1) You must speak for your land disputes and forget about others. The OTHERS will handle their disputes themselves.
2) There are bullies everywhere. Even my next door neighbour is a bully. I manage the situation. Have not changed my house due to that.
3) Did you understand my logic - NO. Do not twist my words.

The war with China will be DISASTROUS and FUTILE. I can assure you there is NOTHING for India in a war with China.


1) WTF. Don't you see how China is behaving. Incursions in Ladakh and Arunachal Pardesh. We have to know the enemy. How it behaves under certain circumstances. It is imposing a NO FLY zone over disputed islands near Japan and if we have some "head in sand" type people in Indian leadership" then we may have to keep off our planes from so called "disputed land " in Arunachal Pardesh.
2) I really do not know about your character but I have made bullies run away or pay very high price for their deeds.
3) Now I am confused.......what was your logic?

It is for the first time I am listening from an Indian ( I think but I may be wrong) that it is all because of Dalai Lama. Take your time and read about China in depth. Nobody is advocating war against China. We are discussing about how to face China if it bring war on us.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Bade » 24 Nov 2013 00:06

Garg, Forget about Buddhism, Dalai Lama and the Tibetan freedom movement if you want. But if you are even speaking just from a purely Indian strategic point of view, just the fact that we are dependent on the Tibetan plateau as the source of our major rivers means we will always want to have a say what happens there.

China can work with us and behave respectfully, or it will have to face up to its losing proposition in the long term over the exact location of the Indo-Tibetan border and related issues.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Rony » 24 Nov 2013 08:22

Is this Garg fellow for real ? 107 pages and yet we have these kind of people posting like this ? Hey Vinayaka ...

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 24 Nov 2013 08:36

US Deeply Concerned Over China Air Defence Zone: John Kerry - ToI
The United States is "deeply concerned" about China's plans to establish an "air defense identification zone" over the East China Sea that includes disputed islands, secretary of state John Kerry said on Saturday.

"This unilateral action constitutes an attempt to change the status quo in the East China Sea. Escalatory action will only increase tensions in the region and create risks of an incident," Kerry said in a statement during a visit in Geneva.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby ramana » 24 Nov 2013 09:04

SS, link above article with the other article about how US looked other way and allowed PRC to proliferate nukes to TSP which keeps India which is the only Asian power that can confront PRC in check.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 24 Nov 2013 12:05

ramana, absolutely. The double standard is stark naked.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 24 Nov 2013 12:24

Surasena wrote:There is this place called Arunachal Pradesh that your Han brothers claim, I will leave it up to you to figure out how that relates to Han imperialism.

It does not matter whether Hindu kings ruled there or not, what matters is that they were under our cultural influence more than the Han and several of our major rivers have origins there which the Han are trying to divert.

Southern parts of East Turkestan were ruled by several Hindu kings, so you willing to fight for that now?

BTW Lalitaditya Muktapida conquered parts of Central Asia & Western regions of Tibet and he was certainly a Hindu king who also halted the Muslim invasions of North India.

That you don't understand how Han imperialism would play a role in our relations tells me all I need to know, so I won't waste any more of your time or mine after this.


Indian influence has reached many places (as far as Combodia) at different points in time. Indonesia is about 10% Hindu to my knowledge.

That does not mean India needs to 'conquer' Combodia or Indonesia or Tibet for that matter.

The cultural bonds can be strengthened for peaceful commerce.

India has given MFN (Most favored nation) status to China to promote commerce. A lot of goods can pass through Tibet rather than coming via ships. This will benefit Tibet and India's north eastern states.

Communist China have taken some actions lately to offend neighbors but we cannot brand Chinese as imperialists.

People forget that China was on the side of Allied powers in second world war. The empire may have promised Tibet to China.
The empire is USA/UK led (called NWO now - New World Order). China could not have walked into Tibet without the empire's silent nod.

British are experts in doublespeak. They pander to both sides of a dispute, and would say one thing to one side, and the opposite to the other. Unfortunately our leaders listen too much to the British and Americans.

China's main concern has been economic development for last few decades. China has not engaged in any significant military activities.
Last edited by member_27847 on 24 Nov 2013 13:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 24 Nov 2013 12:30

China sets-up air defence zone over disputed East China Sea - Ananth Krishnan, The Hindu

China is certainly affecting unilaterally freedom of navigation in international airspace and on international waters.

China on Saturday said it had set up an air defence zone covering the international airspace over parts of the disputed East China Sea, requiring all non-commercial aircraft to notify its authorities of their flight plans to avoid triggering a response from air defence forces.

Japan lodged “a serious protest” in response to the move, describing it as “an extremely dangerous” step that could result in “unpredictable events.”

The Air Defence Identification Zone (ADIZ) over the East China Sea may be followed by the establishment of similar zones covering China’s other frontiers, the Defence Ministry said, with zones to be set up to boost China’s territorial defences “at an appropriate time after completing preparations.”

The ADIZ is a predefined area over international airspace within which the Chinese military will monitor and track aircraft. Many countries, from India to the U.S. and Japan, monitor similar zones beyond their immediate territorial airspaces to track aircraft for security purposes.

While the Chinese government said international flights will not be affected, any other non-commercial flights that have not notified authorities of their flight plans will likely face interception, and could also be brought down.


The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Air Force said it conducted a first air patrol over the ADIZ shortly after the Saturday morning announcement. The zone extends into international airspace east of China’s territorial airspace into the East China Sea, and up to 130 km from Japan’s territorial airspace.

The Chinese ADIZ overlaps with the ADIZ that Japan has already established in the region, with both zones covering the disputed Diaoyu or Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea.

While Chinese officials explained the move as aimed at defending China’s airspace and boosting early warning systems, the Japanese government said it was “extremely dangerous as it may lead to miscalculation in the area.”

The move is likely to fuel tensions with Japan, coming at a time when both countries have sparred over the disputed Senkaku or Diaoyu islands in the East China Sea. In recent months, both countries have dispatched patrol boats to enforce their claims, while Japan has also scrambled fighter jets after Chinese Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) entered the airspace above the islands and threatened recently to shoot them down.

Japan lodges protest

The Japanese government said in a statement it lodged a “serious protest,” with Junichi Ihara, head of the Foreign Ministry’s Asian and Oceanic Affairs Bureau, conveying the government’s protest over the telephone with Han Zhiqiang, Minister at the Chinese Embassy in Japan.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 24 Nov 2013 12:32

ramana wrote:SS, link above article with the other article about how US looked other way and allowed PRC to proliferate nukes to TSP which keeps India which is the only Asian power that can confront PRC in check.



"India can keep PRC in check?"

Indians can believe that for sure, but not proven by facts.

The Chinese have established 10+ major airfields in Burma, and have probably direct presence in North Burma.

The situation with Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka etc. is well known.

There are doubts about even Bhutan creeping up now.

This does not look like keeping PRC 'in check'. Can you give me some example of how India has kept PRC in check?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 24 Nov 2013 12:45

India - China conflict is avoidable.

India should work towards avoiding this conflict. Why? Because a war with China can seriously damage India's economy and also India's ability to defend from other adversaries who are more likely to go to war (even nuclear war) with India.

There is a saying - there is only one lion in the jungle. China has already achieved the number one position in terms of economy and military power in Asia. China's fat bribe to USA and Europe (hundreds of billions of dollar worth of bonds every year) is keeping these afloat today.

I wish good sense prevails in India. I am hopeful because I know that India's civilian leaders will not rush to judgement in the matter of China.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 24 Nov 2013 12:53

On another message board (a board thought to be floated by CIA), there was gleeful discussion about India and China going to war. It seems the White men will dance on the streets if China and India go to war. This eliminates both nations that can compete effectively with the West.

India needs to understand some basic ground realities.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 24 Nov 2013 13:01

Bade wrote:Garg, Forget about Buddhism, Dalai Lama and the Tibetan freedom movement if you want. But if you are even speaking just from a purely Indian strategic point of view, just the fact that we are dependent on the Tibetan plateau as the source of our major rivers means we will always want to have a say what happens there.

China can work with us and behave respectfully, or it will have to face up to its losing proposition in the long term over the exact location of the Indo-Tibetan border and related issues.


Which major river can be blocked by China except Brahmputra?

There is a problem with Brahmputra river (fear of sudden release of water from dams etc. as Assam is low-lying). These things can be worked out.

I am always in favour of a robust military as that is the Vedic view also. If there is a problem, sure it can be sorted by military. But we should work for peace at the same time. There is a need of listening to China.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 24 Nov 2013 13:02

Rony wrote:Is this Garg fellow for real ? 107 pages and yet we have these kind of people posting like this ? Hey Vinayaka ...


We should meet. Perhaps that will prove to you that I am real.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 24 Nov 2013 13:28

China's new air defense zone above Senkaku's 'very dangerous escalation', says Japan - Japan Times
The government branded as “very dangerous” China’s announcement Saturday that it has set up an East China Sea air defense identification zone that includes the Japan-held Senkaku Islands.

The Chinese Defence Ministry said the zone was created to “guard against potential air threats,” but the move will only inflame a bitter sovereignty row over the islets, which China claims as Diaoyu.

Later Saturday, China scrambled air force jets, including fighter planes, to patrol the new zone.

Its outline is shown on the ministry website and a Chinese state media Twitter account — pic.twitter.com/4a2vC6PH8O. It covers a wide area of the East China Sea between South Korea and Taiwan, and includes the Senkaku islets.

In Tokyo, Junichi Ihara, head of the Foreign Ministry’s Asian and Oceanian Affairs Bureau, lodged a protest by phone with Han Zhiqiang, a minister at the Chinese Embassy, according to a statement issued by the ministry.

Ihara was quoted as telling Han that Japan can “never accept the zone set up by China,” as it includes the Senkakus. He further said the new zone will “escalate” already fraught bilateral ties over the uninhabited but potentially resource-rich islet chain, branding China’s move “very dangerous,” the statement said.


Vice Foreign Minister Akitaka Saiki plans to summon Chinese Ambassador to Japan Cheng Yonghua as early as possible Monday to state Tokyo’s position on the matter.

Chinese Defence Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun said Saturday that the establishment of the zone, which China said entered into force as of 10 a.m. Saturday, was aimed at “safeguarding state sovereignty, territorial land and air security, and maintaining flight order.”

“It is a necessary measure in China’s exercise of self-defense rights. It has no particular target and will not affect the freedom of flight in relevant airspace,” Yang said in a statement on the ministry’s website.

“China will take timely measures to deal with air threats and unidentified flying objects from the sea, including identification, monitoring, control and disposition, and it hopes all relevant sides positively cooperate and jointly maintain flying safety,” he said.

Along with the new zone, the Chinese ministry released a set of aircraft identification rules that it says must be followed by all aircraft entering the area, under penalty of intervention by China’s military.

Aircraft are now expected to provide their flight path, clearly mark their nationality and maintain two-way radio communication in order to “respond in a timely and accurate manner to identification inquiries” from Chinese authorities.

Shen Jinke, spokesman for the People’s Liberation Army Air Force, reported late Saturday that it had conducted a sweep of the area using early warning aircraft and fighter jets. “The patrol is in line with international common practices, and the normal flight of international flights will not be affected,” Shen said.

Four Chinese Coast Guard boats briefly entered Japan’s territorial waters around the Senkakus on Friday, after multiple incursions at the end of October and the beginning of this month further aggravated tensions between Beijing and Tokyo.

Defense Minister Itsunori Onodera in late October said the repeated incursions are a threat to peace and fall in a “gray zone (between) peacetime and an emergency situation.”

A few days earlier, his Chinese counterpart had threatened Japan that any bid to shoot down China’s drones would constitute “an act of war.” That move came after a report said Japan had drafted plans to destroy foreign drones that encroach on its airspace if warnings to leave are ignored.

Sino-Japanese relations have remained icy for more than a year because of the Senkakus dispute, which was revived when Japan purchased three of the five main islets in September 2012, effectively nationalizing the entire chain. Since then, China has regularly sent coast guard vessels to the islets, which lie 400 km west of Okinawa and 200 km northeast of Taiwan.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 24 Nov 2013 13:28

Garg wrote:There is a saying - there is only one lion in the jungle. China has already achieved the number one position in terms of economy and military power in Asia.


Chinese navy is no match for Japanese navy.

Chinese airforce is no match for Japanese Air Force.

Chinese army got soundly thrashed by the Vietnamese army.

PLA only has combat experience against unarmed democrasy protestors in Tiananmen Square.

The criminal CPC-PLA leadership is corrupt beyond imagination.

What lion? More like a fat braying @ss.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby JE Menon » 24 Nov 2013 13:44

:D

Garg, does the below also apply or not:

China should work towards avoiding this conflict. Why? Because a war with India can seriously damage China's economy and also China's ability to defend from other adversaries who are more likely to go to war (even nuclear war) with China.

There is a saying - there is only one lion in the jungle. But this is nonsense, because any bloody jungle you go to with lions, there's more than one.

I wish good sense prevails in China. I am hopeful because I know that China's civilian leaders will not rush to judgement in the matter of India.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 24 Nov 2013 14:12

US Criticizes China's ADZ and vows to defend Japan - Japan Times
The United States said Saturday it was “deeply concerned” and committed to defending Japan after China announced an air zone in the East China Sea that includes disputed islets.

In a move that U.S. ally Japan branded as “very dangerous,” China said it was setting up the “air defense identification zone” over the islands administered by Tokyo to “guard against potential air threats.”

In similar statements, Secretary of State John Kerry and Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel said that the United States was “deeply concerned” about the moves by China, which also scrambled air force jets to carry out a patrol mission in the newly declared zone.

“This unilateral action constitutes an attempt to change the status quo in the East China Sea,” Kerry said.

“Escalatory action will only increase tensions in the region and create risks of an incident,” the top U.S. diplomat said from Geneva, where he was taking part in talks on reaching an agreement with Iran on its nuclear program.

Kerry said that the United States has urged China to “exercise caution and restraint,” and warned Beijing against implementing its new zone.

“We urge China not to implement its threat to take action against aircraft that do not identify themselves or obey orders from Beijing,” Kerry said.

Hagel reiterated that the Japanese-administered Senkaku Islands — which the Chinese claim and call the Diaoyu — fell under the U.S.-Japan security treaty, meaning that Washington would defend its ally Tokyo if the area is attacked.

“We are in close consultation with our allies and partners in the region, including Japan. We remain steadfast in our commitments to our allies and partners,” Hagel said.

The defense chief made clear that the United States, which stations more than 70,000 troops in Japan and South Korea, would not respect China’s declaration of control over the zone.

“This announcement by the People’s Republic of China will not in any way change how the United States conducts military operations in the region,” Hagel said.



“Freedom of overflight and other internationally lawful uses of sea and airspace are essential to prosperity, stability and security in the Pacific,” Kerry said.

He called for a “more collaborative and less confrontational future in the Pacific.”


The United States, for its part, does not ask foreign aircraft to identify themselves if they are not intending to enter U.S. airspace.

U.S. President Barack Obama has pledged a greater focus on Asia in light of China’s rise and plans to shift the majority of U.S. warships to the Asia-Pacific region by 2020.

Obama plans to visit Asia, reportedly including Japan, in April. Kerry, who has invested much of his time on the Middle East, will travel to Asia in the coming weeks.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby KrishnaK » 25 Nov 2013 02:43

Garg wrote:It seems the White men will dance on the streets if China and India go to war. This eliminates both nations that can compete effectively with the West.
:roll:

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Cosmo_R » 25 Nov 2013 03:43

Garg wrote:
Rony wrote:Is this Garg fellow for real ? 107 pages and yet we have these kind of people posting like this ? Hey Vinayaka ...


We should meet. Perhaps that will prove to you that I am real.


Sorry, no offense but could not resist.

Your full name is Garg A. Mel?

Please take this as a terrible smurf joke.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 25 Nov 2013 07:15

Cosmo_R wrote:Sorry, no offense but could not resist.

Your full name is Garg A. Mel?

Please take this as a terrible smurf joke.


'Garg' is my real name. Do you any problems? What is with the full name? Is it necessary to use full name on Bharat Rakshak forum?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 25 Nov 2013 07:22

JE Menon wrote::D

Garg, does the below also apply or not:

China should work towards avoiding this conflict. Why? Because a war with India can seriously damage China's economy and also China's ability to defend from other adversaries who are more likely to go to war (even nuclear war) with China.

There is a saying - there is only one lion in the jungle. But this is nonsense, because any bloody jungle you go to with lions, there's more than one.

I wish good sense prevails in China. I am hopeful because I know that China's civilian leaders will not rush to judgement in the matter of India.


Mr Menon,

There is current reality in the world, and that reality is pre-ponderance of A Western Alliance sometimes called 'New World Order'. You are also familiar with NATO.

Both India and China exist within this reality.

Any change of border cannot happen without concurrence of this Western alliance, unless you want to invite displeasure and possibly fight with them.

China has been allowed to develop materially and militarily because China has given something in return.

India needs to focus on its economic development. India is not yet ready for major military role in the World.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 25 Nov 2013 07:31

eklavya wrote:
Garg wrote:There is a saying - there is only one lion in the jungle. China has already achieved the number one position in terms of economy and military power in Asia.


Chinese navy is no match for Japanese navy.

Chinese airforce is no match for Japanese Air Force.

Chinese army got soundly thrashed by the Vietnamese army.

PLA only has combat experience against unarmed democrasy protestors in Tiananmen Square.

The criminal CPC-PLA leadership is corrupt beyond imagination.

What lion? More like a fat braying @ss.


1. You should not call other country's government 'corrupt' etc. There is massive corruption in India itself and in all walks of life. If this is a serious issue for you, start at home.

2. As regards Japan vs. China, Japan has paid big money to USA to protect itself. I know Japanese are strong willed people and are very resourceful. We need not worry about Japan.

3. India should be realistic about China's military power. China has modernized its military and we need to see where they stand now (circa 2013) before drawing any conclusions. I would not want India to be a test case of China's military power.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 25 Nov 2013 07:38

KrishnaK wrote:
Garg wrote:It seems the White men will dance on the streets if China and India go to war. This eliminates both nations that can compete effectively with the West.
:roll:


I have warred with their "Analysts" and "Historians" on some of the best known forums.

NWO operates by spreading disinformation, and by controlling information. Their best weapon is history. They have meticulously built a narrative of history that suits their POV by commissioning historians and destroying any artifacts that contradict with their narrative.

I cannot write a lot on this issue and can be discussed only one-to-one.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby eklavya » 25 Nov 2013 11:22

Garg wrote:1. You should not call other country's government 'corrupt' etc. There is massive corruption in India itself and in all walks of life. If this is a serious issue for you, start at home.

2. As regards Japan vs. China, Japan has paid big money to USA to protect itself. I know Japanese are strong willed people and are very resourceful. We need not worry about Japan.

3. India should be realistic about China's military power. China has modernized its military and we need to see where they stand now (circa 2013) before drawing any conclusions. I would not want India to be a test case of China's military power.


There is massive and all pervasive corruption in the CPC and the PLA. You need to be aware of this when talking about China's leadership. The New York Times wrote a story about the billions of dollars of wealth accumulated by the family of Wen Jiabao, the former PM of China:

Billions in Hidden Riches for Family of Chinese Leader

Read the story (if you are allowed to). I sympathise with you if you are not allowed to.

It appears you have accepted that the PLA is not the "lion" of Asia. In fact, not just the Japanese, but even the S Korean forces are superior (in technology and operational competence) to the PLA. Given how much US power is deployed in East Asia, actually PLA is the 4th ranked power in East Asia.

PLA is welcome to make India a test case for its so called power. PLA is a criminal force run by corrupt incompetent leaders (chosen for their loyalty to the criminal CPC leadership, rather than any military competence) who will face public humiliation and disgrace if they try to fight any battle. The criminals in the CPC and the PLA are only good at propaganda and at killing unarmed Chinese people protesting for their basic human rights.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby harbans » 25 Nov 2013 16:44

India needs to do a LOT to fix itself internally before we talk about China.


Do you realize China was one of the poorest countries in the world when it occupied Tibet and waged war in 62.
Do you realize China sent a man to space when it's economy was the same size India's is today.
Do you realize China had it's first bullet train when it's economy was half our size.
Do you realize China exploded nukes when it was one of the poorest countries in the world and 50m had died of starvation.
Last edited by harbans on 25 Nov 2013 17:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby SSridhar » 25 Nov 2013 16:53

harbans wrote:
India needs to do a LOT to fix itself internally before we talk about China.

I do not know who posted this. But a general *warning* .

This is managing 'Chinese Threat' thread. So, let us concentrate on that. We, I mean Indians, may have a lot of fallibles but that is not under discussion in this thread.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby rsingh » 25 Nov 2013 19:32

Garg wrote:I see a pervasive anti-China statement here. So I want to offer a few facts:

Fact 1: China is a next door neighbour. This cannot change. Any rational person would want to keep good relations with its next door neighbour.

Fact 2: China is a major economy and major military power. There is far more to gain from peaceful coexistence.

Fact 3: There is no historical basis for enmity between China and India. The current mistrust has much to do with Tibet than any natural or long-standing problem between the two nations.

It is better if India starts treating Tibet as part of China (as it says officially) and stops worrying about roads and other infrastructure being built there.

I am just a very concerned citizen. There is NO benefit in growing enmity between these two very large Asian nations. Waste of money in defending cold/barren lands at stupendous heights is not a sign of rationality.


Then this
[quote"India can keep PRC in check?"

Indians (slip of a fradi)can believe that for sure, but not proven by facts.

The Chinese have established 10+ major airfields in Burma, and have probably direct presence in North Burma.

The situation with Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka etc. is well known.

There are doubts about even Bhutan creeping up now.

This does not look like keeping PRC 'in check'. Can you give me some example of how India has kept PRC in check?][/quote]

:rotfl: It reminds me the big debate I had with one Harami Singh Garg at KutubMinar in Lalkila on eastern bank of Yamuna in New Delhi. There was this restaurant selling dog meat and it was full of Chinese businessmen and Indian beauties. Felt quite bad.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby JE Menon » 25 Nov 2013 20:04

Garg wrote:
JE Menon wrote::D

Garg, does the below also apply or not:

China should work towards avoiding this conflict. Why? Because a war with India can seriously damage China's economy and also China's ability to defend from other adversaries who are more likely to go to war (even nuclear war) with China.

There is a saying - there is only one lion in the jungle. But this is nonsense, because any bloody jungle you go to with lions, there's more than one.

I wish good sense prevails in China. I am hopeful because I know that China's civilian leaders will not rush to judgement in the matter of India.


Mr Menon,

There is current reality in the world, and that reality is pre-ponderance of A Western Alliance sometimes called 'New World Order'. You are also familiar with NATO.

Both India and China exist within this reality.

Any change of border cannot happen without concurrence of this Western alliance, unless you want to invite displeasure and possibly fight with them.

China has been allowed to develop materially and militarily because China has given something in return.

India needs to focus on its economic development. India is not yet ready for major military role in the World.


You did not address my question, which was very specific. Does it apply or not?

The above "response" is like saying the sun rises in the east. No one disputed that to begin with.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 26 Nov 2013 07:32

SSridhar wrote:This is managing 'Chinese Threat' thread. So, let us concentrate on that. We, I mean Indians, may have a lot of fallibles but that is not under discussion in this thread.


My friend, fixing internally means becoming stronger economically and militarily.

India can challenge China only after India is almost at par with China in social, economic and military indicators.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_19686 » 26 Nov 2013 07:41

Garg wrote:My friend, fixing internally means becoming stronger economically and militarily.

India can challenge China only after India is almost at par with China in social, economic and military indicators.

My friend, the Korean War says hello.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 26 Nov 2013 07:44

Mr Menon,

Point 1: You would worry about India's economy or China's economy. As an Indian, your concern would be with India's economy.

What happens to China is secondary.

A big war will definitely damage India's economy in more ways than one. This is a serious concern.

Point 2: China has been accorded a special place by the West, due to its large economic role generally, as well as its support of US and European economies.

India can also get this status but India is not there yet.

Point 3: China fought WWII, a devastating civil war, Korean War and and many other smaller wars, but still stands in very good economic and military shape. This is due to effort of its citizens.

India can also get there IF there is effort from its citizens.

Point 4: India's place in the World

India's prestige is definitely increasing but more as an economic power rather than as a military power. It will take more time before India is recognized as a military power.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 26 Nov 2013 07:57

"Do you realize China was one of the poorest countries in the world when it occupied Tibet and waged war in 62."

Military power and economic power are not 1-1. A poor country can also be militarily strong if there is will and culture.
USA tried to dislodge China from Tibet but failed. The end result was brutal repression of Tibetans.
The outside interference in Tibet may have made matters worse for Tibetans.


"Do you realize China sent a man to space when it's economy was the same size India's is today."

What stops India from sending a man to space? India is also making progress in space.

"Do you realize China had it's first bullet train when it's economy was half our size."

India should also have bullet trains. Trains are most fuel efficient means, much better than planes.

"Do you realize China exploded nukes when it was one of the poorest countries in the world and 50m had died of starvation."

I shall leave this point as an answer will offend the moderators.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby Suraj » 26 Nov 2013 07:59

Garg, stop disrupting this thread. You've already been advised by another mod (SSridhar), so this is your last informal warning.

As much as your point about India's priorities may have merit in your own eyes, this thread is not the place to debate the matter. Threads are meant to focus on the thread topic. Find a more appropriate place to post about India in. This thread is not the location for it - it is about China.

Garg wrote:"Do you realize China exploded nukes when it was one of the poorest countries in the world and 50m had died of starvation."

I shall leave this point as an answer will offend the moderators.

Actually, no. I suggest you post your argument as to why the Chinese system emphasized war over development. This thread is all about understanding them, not about us.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Postby member_27847 » 26 Nov 2013 08:11

Ok Mr Suraj, Good luck with your discussion.

There will be another million words and no conclusion. Nobody will benefit from it.


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