Counter Propaganda

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RajeshA
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Counter Propaganda

Postby RajeshA » 11 Sep 2010 09:35

On various news-sites, blogs, forums, especially in the Western media, the Pakistanis and perhaps others, make propaganda, claims and allegations which try to
  • distort historical truths
  • asserts Pakistani rights over Indian territory
  • presents Pakistan as saviors
  • presents Pakistan as victims
  • presents India and Indians in bad light
  • etc.

All this propaganda needs to be countered by Indians.

I would appeal to all Indians and India-friends to post their contributions to various blogs, forums, news-sites, etc. and general ideas here.

This will help other BRFites to counter similar propaganda as well. Other BRFites would be able to learn how to better formulate their responses, and what facts to present.

In some cases even copy and paste could be allowed if the the original author of the comment approves of it.

Please post your comments here in a structured form, making it easy for others to skim, search and easily understand.
o Pakistani/Other Claim (In Bold tags, Max. 15-20 words)
o Some quote from the relevant article or comments section to which one responded (In Quote tags)
o Link to article or your comment if available (In case of Paki Jingo site, simply the name - no link)
o Your comment (as much as possible verbatim)
o Commentary other's claims and your comment.
o Approval for reproduction or not, word for word or in general sense

In case one wants to protect one's anonymity on the other site, one can give here more general hints.

All suggestions are welcome! Thanks.

JE Menon
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby JE Menon » 11 Sep 2010 14:15

A good idea and potential force multiplier. Already on threads there are posts which people have made on multiple blogs/websites, etc. If one comes across these, please x-post it here. I've recently made a few posts but can't locate the damned things anymore...

Tanaji
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Tanaji » 11 Sep 2010 14:20

Excellent idea.

What I would suggest is that we have ready made rebuttals to the most common propaganda suchas *India is killing Muslims in Kashmir" "India has no claim over Kashmir and is illegal" etc etc.

A lot of us can have the facts on hand, but rebuttals need to be written forcefully with biting sarcasm in some cases, which is a skill not everyone has. If one has some samples, its easy to modify and go.

Shiv's ebook on Pak is an excellent resource for Paki facts.

RajeshA
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby RajeshA » 11 Sep 2010 14:30

The thing is writing rebuttals and counter arguments etc also takes time. If one has ready material, instant coffee, fast food, then one could put such rebuttals on five different articles/blogs in the same time, as one would need for one place.

If one has to be a rebuttal-warrior, then one better be a fast and fully armed one!

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Vril » 11 Sep 2010 15:02

This is good idea. can we have common propagandus in questionnaire form and their rebuttals posted here so that one can copy and paste material from here where ever required. will save time typing it, will have uniformity and can be posted all across in very short time with more readership and more soldiers on our side.

JMT

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Brad Goodman » 11 Sep 2010 21:30

Here is the biggest problem I see in writing in comments section. There are too many web sites and newspapers we cover and from various continents. Plus every site wants you to register before posting comments. I would recommend that we form groups and then divide publications we would like to be POC for. We can gather information and analysis from here and post it over there to articulate out POV.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Venkarl » 11 Sep 2010 21:51

On the other side of the coin...our comments should maintain a medium tone so that they'll be approved...else comments will never be up.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby brihaspati » 11 Sep 2010 22:41

Don't know if the following fits here: its not directly about Pak : It is about NE. Christina Baird's comments immediately above this one is also most interesting. [No problem in quoting from the author of the following passage]
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/blogs/southasiamasala/2010/06/10/india%E2%80%99s-northeast-insurgencies-a-somewhat-forgotten-story/
4. Dikgaj - July 9, 2010

An otherwise well-researched article, but I am puzzled at some curious omissions. (1) Apart from Assam, Manipur also has a strong “Hindu” presence, with a well-known Vaishnavite tradition and a well-known dance form associated with explicitly Hindu motifs. There are also other “Hindu” groups scattered throughout the region, including Tripura. All three had “Hindu” kingdoms retaining their independence from the Mughals. In fact, the Mughals failed to conquer Assam. (2) The Assam violence started primarily as a reaction to what was seen as Bangladeshi plains Muslim “infiltration” and illegal migration. This led to a targeting of “Bengali” in general, and there are alleged political twists to turn this movement against West-Bengal Hindu Bengalees who were settlers from many previous generations. Note that all of this happened under Congress ministries in the state. (3) The other NE states violence initially took the form of communist insurgency in the late 60’s and 70’s as part of the general Maoist insurgency engulfing the eastern part. A detailed analysis of socio-economic parameters of the period should have shown that they were not much different from the previous decades and in fact were starting to improve. Moreover, any developmental effort in this region also has to consider the so-called resistance to “interference in traditional lifestyles”. (4) There have been allegations of Missionary activities and involvement in indirectly supporting insurgency, or the use of Christian themes and identities to claim international legitimacy for insurgency. In fact there are studies of the correlation of growth of missionary activity in Nagaland with the growth insurgency related violence. This should not be taken as an implication of missionaries in violence against the Indian state or separatism but could indicate a complicated political and international angle to the whole process.

Finally, there are schools of thought that see the selective and biased treatment of separatism by neo-imperialism working in the separatist and insurgent violence in NE India. The region is strategically important to a host of international entities keen on gaining a foothold here. China would be interested as it gets closer to a direct route to Bangladesh and protecting its Tibetan interest from the south-east. Western powers would be equally interested in checking Chinese advance and getting an independent foothold to gain intervening or surveillance powers over the critical Kunming-Myanmar-Bangladesh-NE-India region – a region of difficult terrain, insurgency, drugs and arms trafficking – all of which can be used to generate resources outside of national western budgets to fuel covert operations against perceived enemies.


Let me know if this WT or OT.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby jamwal » 11 Sep 2010 23:12

There is similar thread in GDF. If possible, posts from that should be moved here.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby jaibhim » 12 Sep 2010 05:15

The MHA will sleep and there will be no one to rebutt this poison which will slowy but surely end up beaking up India. As we watch in horror from day to day how the government moves from one crisis to another. What are the measures members could think of fighting this? My modest efforts of phoning the MHA and the PMO failed because the babus there dont seem to understand the implications of this pschcological war especially by these jhollawallahs and maoist and jihadi mouthpieces such as kafila.
Who is going to fight this? I am tired and have thrown up my hands No use writing letters to editor and trying to write comments. There is no paper other than express today worth reading and there is no one to defend the idea of an united India against this poisonous onslaught which if not taken seriously will crush India. Please see Arundirty back after while in the dawn[what a way to go] and outlook.Its mired in contradictions and someone needs to tear it apart.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby shiv » 12 Sep 2010 12:19

pgbhat wrote:^ I would have paid to see the Baki shoot his own mijjile off.

The traveling Pakistani: Adding insult to injury ---- Amna Khalique


None of the hijackers involved in 9/11 were Pakistanis and nor were they funded by Pakistanis


Could someone who has registered please post in the feedback the news item about Khalid Sheikh Mohammad wiring money to Mohammad Atta from Karachi

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby negi » 12 Sep 2010 21:44

Posted by Anujan in nukkad. Excellent rebuttal by the Great Bong.


Of-azaadi-and-kashmir-and-other-false-words

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby shiv » 13 Sep 2010 08:42

Prem wrote:Pakistan: Now or Never?
http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2010/ ... democracy/
few "Pakistani" Nuggets fresh out of Musharraf.

Pakistan, India and the value of democracy

“It is clear to my mind that if Hinduism accepts social democracy, it must cease to be Hinduism,” he wrote in a letter to Pakistan’s founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, in 1937. “For Islam, the acceptance of social democracy in some suitable form and consistent with the legal principles of Islam is not a revolution but a return to the original purity of Islam.”


Needs rebuttal or at least changing of qibla.

Pakistanis were so convinced that Islamic Pakistan itself meant social democracy that they failed to do anything to actually set right the inequalities other than by eliminating Hindu, Sikhs and Christians. And now Ahmedis. "We are Islamic. So all is well"

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby abhischekcc » 13 Sep 2010 09:51

This is a nice topic. I was going to start one on the same, but wanted it more focused on techniques of propoganda and counter propoganda. I wanted it to have :
1. more tutorial kind of thread
2. material for waging internet jehad against enemies of India.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Ambar » 13 Sep 2010 10:05

shiv wrote:
pgbhat wrote:^ I would have paid to see the Baki shoot his own mijjile off.

The traveling Pakistani: Adding insult to injury ---- Amna Khalique


None of the hijackers involved in 9/11 were Pakistanis and nor were they funded by Pakistanis


Could someone who has registered please post in the feedback the news item about Khalid Sheikh Mohammad wiring money to Mohammad Atta from Karachi



Shiv, mine was the first comment in the feedback section and i highlighted a long list of Pakis or people of Paki origin involved in global terrorism. Needless to say, my comment conspicuously went missing just after a day. It is futile to post comments in feedback sections of Paki news channels, if you wonder aloud aimlessly it gets posted,but if one tries to highlight the truth with specific examples, it immediately gets deleted.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby sanjaykumar » 13 Sep 2010 11:04

This is a much needed topic, often fumbled.

Indians need to develop a more sophisticated approach when commenting for a western audience. Whining about how India is the subject of terrorism is not of any interest to them-after all if the GOI cannot protect Indians, it is not the job for Britain or the US. Notions of justice and fairplay, or a victimisation as a colony is of also of minimal significance.

An approach needs to be developed that western elites will find compelling. I have been following the Pakistan/China stories for over a decade. Never has India's case been potentially more open to a sympathetic hearing. Paradoxically it is because both Pakistan and China are in a position to do some damage to western interests.

Modulate the argument for the venue. A letter to the Times of London needs to play upon the economic benefits of an entente, whereas one to the Guardian will do well to acknowledge India's many social failings while underlining India's general openness and attempts at social justice.

Conflation of India's interest with western objectives should remain restricted to realpolitik. India is not a Christian, white nation and should never pretend to be one.

Poor grammar, archaic English or even colloquialisms generally unfamiliar to the culture will ensure non-selection for publishing. Unfortunately so will erudite, closely reasoned theses no matter how brief and clever. If the editorial staff can't understand you (surprisingly not uncommon), you will not be included.

Always aim for the moral high ground to make the reader a little uncomfortable but never be abusive. I have had excoriating notes on Churchill and Christianity published in a separate box. At the same time never lose objectivity and the modernist approach to debate. If you are viewed as being alive to nuances, your ideas will find more fertile ground. And that is the aim of propaganda.

Propaganda is not the stereotypical Pakistani crude Islamist hatred. That is just crude Islamist hatred. Propaganda is when your audience congratulates itself on arriving at your conclusions on their own.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby abhischekcc » 13 Sep 2010 11:29

Removing post until it is put into GDF.
Last edited by abhischekcc on 13 Sep 2010 11:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby abhischekcc » 13 Sep 2010 11:35

Rajesh, admins,

May I request you to put this thread in the GDF forum to avoid other people from reading it?

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby RajeshA » 13 Sep 2010 13:28

abhischekcc ji,

What kind of information displayed here, do you believe would compromise the interests of India or BRF and its members?

The information displayed here, would be a collection of responses to WKK and foreign propaganda, posted elsewhere. It would most likely be based on truth. There is no reason to hide that. Such information should be displayed prominently in fact, so that all can see and profit from it for its liberating truth and for its rhetorical qualities.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby abhischekcc » 13 Sep 2010 13:39

Hi Rajesh,

No, that is not the point.

As you know, BRF gets lurkers from the very people we intend to counter. I do not want them to get advance warning of the arguments we develop here, that is all.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby abhischekcc » 13 Sep 2010 13:40

Any way, I am posting my earlier post again.

----------------

Propoganda has a particular structure. So counter propoganda also has to follow a particular structure.


A typical and universal model of propoganda is like this:

Facts << Arguments and Assumptions << Grand Narrative (or Worldview)

When we (BRites) fight propoganda against India online, we usually counter facts with facts. The maximum impact of this is that it creates some doubt in the mind of the reader, no more. So the best we achieve with this is put brake on anti-India propoganda.

#1 What we need to do is help people understand the world in the right way. This means we need to appeal to their emotions. That means we need to educate them about the right Arguments and Assumptions , and help them challenge the wrong ones.

#2 Further, we need to educate them about the right ethics. This means promoting the right Grand Narrative (or Worldview).

-----------------------------

This is the structure of propaganda:

Facts -> Concious mind (Level 1 or L1)
Arguments & Assumptions -> Emotions (Level 2 or L2)
Grand Narrative -> Ethics (Level 3 or L3)

So effective counter propaganda should follow the same structure.

We can use counter propaganda with a two tier structure: foundation and booster.

------------------------------

Now, we need to map our area of operations - the various types of people who live here are how to approach them.

1. Most of the online readers are common people, and the best approach is to appeal to their emotions. IOW, challenge the arguments and assumptions of the writer/author. After challenging the arguments and assumptions, facts can play a crucial role. Supporting facts bolster the arguments, and make them more convincing. This approach will work for most writers, journalists, commentators, politicians, etc. In this case, L2 is foundation and L1 is booster.


2. Subject Experts: If you are addressing these guys directly, then counter-facts will prove more useful than in the previous case. However, as we know, most of these experts, especially if they are western, usually follow a very pointed agenda.

So to effectively counter them, we need to first expose their agenda (arguments and assumptions), which is the foundation. The booster is to challenge the Grand Narrative - which is the western point of view (Amerocentric). Eurocentric narrative is dead nowadays in politics and current history, however, it is the foundation to the Amerocentric arguments in politics and current history.


3. Rabble rousers: Think Arundhati Roy. What can you do to counter her 'arguments'. They are meant to provoke, not enlighten. They attack decency at the most basic level. Even responding to such people is to give too much credence to her brand of politics.

Why does the current system support people like her? Because by expressing extreme fringe opinions, she prevents the main narrative from being challenged. Hence, her statement on Maoists being 'Gandhi with Guns' attracted criticism about her understanding of Gandhism. But the point that was nullified in the noise was that Maoists are essentially criminals.

Let me elaborate. Before AR made that statement, the main point of contention in the Indian elite was whether to deal with Maoists as a bunch of criminals or whether to consider their point of view as legitimate. The noise following AR's statement helped bury former view (almost). It was a classic case of misdirection, and is difficult to avoid, especially when your emotions are running high.

The only way to counter such misdirection is to maintain focus on the main issue. You should say 'yes, yes, you may be right, but that is not the main issue, this is ...' - The 'yes, but' argument. After this, we can follow the same pattern as the first model (common people).


-------------------

What I have written is in abstract. It will become much clearer when I illustrate it with examples. I'll do it later, todin is Mondin and I need to get some wurk done as well. :)

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Vidyut » 13 Sep 2010 21:05

I think we need amore coordinated effort. Also, I find that many people tend to get emotional and abusive, which is quite counterproductive. What we need more of is a "conversation". Even conversation among us on a thread we would like to influence. In the sense that rather than address propaganda, ignore it and have conversations with three or four people whose words we'd like to support so that the fake propaganda is 1. lost in the piles of comments and 2. seen as a clearly individual view.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Klaus » 14 Sep 2010 00:08

X-posting from Vidyut's recently locked thread:

I'm new here. Actually, I landed up here in my search for people actively following happenings in Kashmir, because I saw a certain "deficiency" on the Indian "publicity management" front, and was wondering if a citizen's initiative could be attempted.

Few things I noticed:

Most of the 'war' these days is fought in public opinion, and frankly, India sucks at managing that. While our inclusive approach to media make it easy for someone to publish all kinds of things that create a certain image of the Indian presence in Kashmir, there is no real coordinated effort to present the Indian side well. The few voices that get raised are often the Hindutva variety, which are easy to dismiss as radicalized or biased. On the other hand, there is wholesale propaganda geared toward inciting crowds, creating an overwhelming image of Indian oppressive actions, unending suffering, and so on. And I am sure some of it may be true, but it is also very exaggerated in terms of the magnitude. For example, it must be a real 'moderate holocaust' or 'gentle genocide' (a la moderate separatists ) if the number of people dead is less than the number of days of actual conflict on the streets. Not that I discount any death, but obviously the projection of the 'slaughter' is quite exaggerated.

Missing information: There is very little real information coming in from the government or army. 5 infiltrators killed in so and so place as a small article is not the same as photos, names, IDs if any, audio clips from recorded conversations that imply planned unrest, scans of posters confisticated from the youth to intimidate people into supporting strikes, etc.... all this makes the Indian version more credible, but apparently no one realizes that. So, while you have quotes from the separatist publicity machine about the daily habits of the dead, quotes from family members, references to earlier death announcements in following ones..... it is a very well organized way of keeping the issue alive. India needs to wake up to this.

Then there is actual countering propaganda. Check out news coming out of Israel. No matter what the slaughter they indulge in, there is always also an Israeli version, no matter how thin and unbelievable, that makes it sound overdue at best and a very human mistake at worst. Check out Pakistan and its protests about human rights abuse in Kashmir, including the dramatization of receiving aid around it. No one laughed outright at the thought of Pakistan lecturing about human rights, when it is framed with images of the suffering of millions. Millions who are better off dead than being aided by such a cruel nation as India.... Without getting into the right and wrong of it, the important part is that these techniques are effective. India needs to have someone talking on its behalf. Someone other than Arundhati Roy, that is. She brings up some great points on behalf of the oppressed, but apparently no one other than the oppressed has problems. Uhmmmm.... lets just say human rights activists only if they think cops and army people are human too, but otherwise, the common man of India - who cares about the armed forces and the hurting kashmiris and is interested in looking deeper into things and questioning propaganda rather than bashing the Congress (no matter how tempting it gets).

There is an extremely organized network churning out propaganda and making comments, sharing forwards..... we need to have something with a capacity to question it visibly. I'm not speaking all out war, but certainly keeping the Indian perspective visible for the countless people reading on in disbelief and often hoping to find something that makes sense out of the apparent cruelty.

The Human face: The government is utterly paralyzed by the happenings, and running in circles, muttering to and among itself without actually saying anything at all to the Kashmiris other than requesting restraint and implying vague promises along disastrous lines. Incredible as it sounds, it hasn't occurred to the government to say, "Gosh, we screwed up big time. We ignored Kashmir. Kids died. Words can't bring them back, but we are sorry." or "We are sorry that your complaints on human rights abuses have been ignored. We would appreciate it if you could submit records of issues you think have been ignored and on our end, we will set up an inquiry." or "Let us get a grip on the human rights scenario from now on, while we sort out the past. The army has set up helplines. Could you volunteer mature and sensitive people to interact with the victims, who may find it easier speaking with a fellow Kashmiri?". Replacing politicians with call center trainees would solve half the Kashmir problem. You don't have to do something you can't, but you can listen, apologise for their suffering, put the grievance into a system, which allows for time to work with it. Involving them is important, and the government seems to think "do this" or "take this" is a form of engagement.

We can't do much about the government, but I can't but help think that creating interactions that are compassionate rather than accusative would help influence the tone of the Kashmir problem online. For example, it is not helping to hear of the income versus expenditure of Kashmir, when obviously that money hasn't brought joy. Or talking about being misguided, when they see injustice around them (never mind that they have been sensitized to see and react to that). People sometimes forget that when you antagonize Kashmiris, you push away Kashmir too. The point isn't who is right or wrong. Like a friend with a tantrum, when we care and we simply listen without correcting or blaming no matter how outrageous they get to help them find calm again. What we need is a true "popcorn brigade" watching events unfolding between the government and Kashmir with no particular bias and desire for well being of both, together or apart, but looking at all kinds of facets that may not have been considered and inviting conversations around them. A friendly curiosity and a nosy irreverence that questions everything on the table. For example, "Say dost, you get your independence. What have you guys planned for the country?" or even "What do you see in that Andrabi woman? She herself says she doesn't care for kashmiriyat." even, "Do you think these guys will really take away the superpower acts?" or "What is the longest time you've stayed indoors because of a curfew?" Whatever the answer is, to not argue, but simply discover how their thinking and life differs from ours. Get them talking, get them engaged. Show them that we care for THEIR perspective rather than trying to con them into ours. Show them that they can have that perspective safely around us. Create those islands of peace so that they don't have to default into the schemes of the separatists, but have a feeling of security of their own too.

I feel certain that something like this would help. I was wondering the viability of a volunteer covert popcorn brigade group as a social/patriotic experiment, where our main job is to create diversity in the conversations around Kashmir and question negative propaganda, without actually fighting it. The idea is to take it seriously and poke enough holes for its unviability to be evident without calling it fake and triggering argument. Diversity that forces thinking for answers, because the propaganda hasn't covered the "lines". It is discovering and talking more and more about these gray areas that can help those interactions form and communications open.

I don't know if it is a suitable subject for here, since I'm new, but this was the reason I joined, so I might as well ask.


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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Sudip » 14 Sep 2010 00:49

I think it is a good idea to make this post for members only.

I would also like to suggest that it is a good idea to promote the videos/blogs/articles of people such as Hasan Nisar, Tariq Ahmed, Najam Sethi, Hoodbhoy, Ashgar Khan, Aasim Sajjad who oppose the anti-indian outlook in their country and constantly urge their people to change their point of view. People tend to agree faster when their own countrymen urge them using strongly built cases and facts unlike arun-dhoti.
As an example here is a huge library of videos in this youtube channel by a pakistani which strongly supports a pro-india view

http://www.youtube.com/user/KashifHKhan

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby A_Gupta » 14 Sep 2010 05:10

IMO, Vidyut has an idea worth pursuing. It works on many levels.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2010 06:21

Huge bomb blast near southern coast..

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby shiv » 14 Sep 2010 06:21

^^^
Not true!!
Sorry for the sensationalism - will clarify

The reason for the sensationalism is that propaganda does not have to be planned in secret. It can be quite open as long as it is consistent and appears in several media. People who read things like "Huge bomb blast" will not start looking for news sources where it has been planned as propaganda. They will look for confirmation. So there is absolutely no reason to hide anything in the hijab.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Philip » 14 Sep 2010 11:45

As I mentioned during the Kargil War,winning the "Propaganda War" is as important as winning the actual war.In '65,Pak tried to convince the world that it "won" the war,with fictitious tales and tall stoories like that of Alam and his "hunting Hunters",which was too much for even many Paki military men.In those days,the Paki armed forces were composed of military men who not too long ago had been part of the combined Indian armed forces under the British.Their military heritage,like ours too, was moulded by the British approach to warfare and martial traditions were very similar. That War was 45 years ago, let us remember,and the mindset of the Paki military man today is anything but chivalric.Even the rules of the Geneva Convention do not apply to the ISI ,experienced through its terror devilry.

Therefore the first battle before the actual war starts,or as in India's case,an on-going proxy war is taking place,is to win the "Propaganda War".This requires the skills of a Goebells.A full-fledged division in the Information Ministry with "embedded assets" from the MEA/MOD,etc.,should aid and advise the IM in winning this war.During times of crisis,a nation's people look to their govts. to keep them infoprmed with events.Here both transparency and bold counter-attacks against enemy propaganda is expected.Lies do not get one very far as the Pakis are discovering to their shame right now on various issues,not least being the cricket matchfixing scandal.The inept and utterly false statements emanating from their high commissioner's frontal orifice,was so ludicrous that it appeared as if he was using his nether end in expelling hot air!

We therefore must be vigilant and expose immdiately false propaganda put out by the Pakis and attack,attack them on all fronts,from their diabolic terror campaign,to the misuse of military and financial aid and other clear cases of corruption.Pak must be painted as the most pestilential and untrustworthy nation on the planet.It is doing a marvellous job by itself,but with a little help from us could go even further into the land of lies and be ostracised by the global comity of nations.

RajeshA
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby RajeshA » 14 Sep 2010 19:42

UN Resolution on Kashmir
By the way did you forget the UN Resolution over Kashmir Issue before advising us about UNO (overseeing land redistribution in Pakistan).

Blog Link

Yes there was something in there about Pakistan first needing to vacate the part of Jammu & Kashmir under its control before a plebiscite could be held. By not vacating ‘Azad Kashmir’ and ‘Gilgit-Baltistan’, you have condemned the Kashmiris to live in the horrible horrible India.
It is still not too late!

Can be reproduced!

Rudradev
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Rudradev » 14 Sep 2010 19:58

Urgent: References Needed

Hi all,

Need these references urgently to counter statements made in a social circle where I usually do not usually engage in any political discussion, but where a discussion on J&K happened to take place yesterday. I spoke up when the BS level got too much. Now I have to back up my counterpoints to some of the assertions made during the discussion.

Statements to be countered are:

1) "Indian Army beat an 8-year old child to death in J&K"

2) "Indian Army is not held accountable for civilian deaths, excesses, rights violations and "atrocities" in J&K... no soldier is ever punished or court martialled"

3) "Text messaging is banned in J&K"

Some of these people could potentially be influential, and time is of the essence to get the message in... unfortunately I am cranking on several work projects at this very moment so any help from anyone with a little free time would be much appreciated.

Abhi_G
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Abhi_G » 14 Sep 2010 20:05

Rudradev, this is fresh.

Indian Army repatriates run away woman from PoK


http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/fea ... 24802.html

Poonch (J-K), Sep.7 (ANI): Officials of the Indian Army in Kashmir handed over a run away woman from Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK to the Pakistan Army here on Monday after she crossed over to the Indian side.

Nazia Begum, a resident of Tetrinote village in PoK, had crossed the Makki post near the Line of Control (LoC) after fleeing from home.

On being questioned by the security personnel, Nazia revealed about her native place and said that she was a victim of wife-beating. She said she was running away from her husband’s daily torture.

“My husband used to beat me up. I ran away and continue to run. I crossed the canal and did not realise that I had crossed the border and from there I was caught.

When asked about the treatment she received from the Indian Army, Nazia said: “They gave me food to eat and treated me well.”

“They (Indian Army) gave me respect. Today, they gave me sweets and clothes for Eid. God shall bless the Indian Army. They give so much respect to their enemies also. God bless them,” said Nazia.

Kanson
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Kanson » 14 Sep 2010 20:19

From google:

Human Rights Watch documented one case of rape by the Indian army in Doda and received consistent reports of such abuse from elsewhere in Doda and from the border areas of Punch and Rajouri. Significantly, army authorities have demonstrated some concern about rape and have initiated a number of courts-martial of soldiers for rape. However, many reports of rape, particularly by federal or local police forces, are never investigated.

http://wishsubmission.wordpress.com/200 ... dian-army/

SwamyG
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby SwamyG » 14 Sep 2010 21:42

Opportunity here for some of us to try out some of the tactics and material here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/1 ... 14652.html

Rudradev
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Rudradev » 14 Sep 2010 23:06

Thanks Kanson and AbhiG. The HRW report linked by Kanson is a good one, because even though it is full of other unsubstantiated allegations about Indian security forces it still admits that the IA prosecutes personnel who are charged with rape.

Anyone else heard of "IA beating an 8-year-old to death?" I can't find it on google.

The "text messaging is banned in J&K" I have countered by saying that SMS services are typically suspended in any law-and-order emergency, such as riots or terrorist bomb blasts, such as during Mumbai 7/11 or 11/26. No reason why Kashmir Valley Sunni Muslims (ALWAYS use this phrase, I suggest) should be treated with yet more favourable exceptionalism when they disturb the peace with organized violence.

And, any other reports of IA court-martialing personnel charged with crimes or atrocities in J&K would be very welcome.

RajeshA
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby RajeshA » 14 Sep 2010 23:59

Rudradev wrote:No reason why Kashmir Valley Sunni Muslims (ALWAYS use this phrase, I suggest) should be treated with yet more favourable exceptionalism when they disturb the peace with organized violence.


Rudradev ji, good point!

Terms to use:
Kashmiris: NO
Kashmiri Muslims: NO
Kashmiri Valley Muslims: NO
Kashmiri Valley Sunni Muslims: BETTER
Kashmiri Valley Wahhabi Muslims: PREFERABLE

SwamyG
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby SwamyG » 15 Sep 2010 01:36

^^^
Why? Gyaan appreciated and will be distributed.

ramana
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby ramana » 15 Sep 2010 01:43

West has caught on that Wahabi is bad.

Carl_T
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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby Carl_T » 15 Sep 2010 02:14

Rudradev wrote:The "text messaging is banned in J&K" I have countered by saying that SMS services are typically suspended in any law-and-order emergency, such as riots or terrorist bomb blasts, such as during Mumbai 7/11 or 11/26. No reason why Kashmir Valley Sunni Muslims (ALWAYS use this phrase, I suggest) should be treated with yet more favourable exceptionalism when they disturb the peace with organized violence.


Why specifically Sunni, are Shias also not engaged in separatist activities? How about just Pakistan-funded Islamists...I don't think we should even give them the Kashmiri tag.

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby SwamyG » 15 Sep 2010 03:02

The below posts from Rudradev and SSridhar, from a TSP thread, are good material to counter some of the material thrown at us. Sum's post makes two claims and Rudradev and SSridhar responded with good historical material to counter.

sum wrote:From orbat:

The second Pakistan claim is that in the kingdom of Junagarh, a Muslim king ruled a Hindu majority - mirror image of Kashmir. The King's subjects begged for Indian intervention when the king decided for Pakistan. Saying a Hindu majority could not be ruled by an Muslim, India annexed Junagarh.
*

The Pakistanis say it is only after this outrage and breach of the independence agreement that they invaded Kashmir. This may be, but they would have invaded regardless, because as far as Pakistan was concerned, Kashmir was destined to be part of Pakistan.
*


RudraDev wrote:The Orbat article does not do enough to demolish the Pakfilth propaganda of Junagarh being a "mirror image" of J&K. While the Maharaja of Kashmir was the victim of Pakistani military aggression against his state, Nawab Mahabat Khanji of Junagarh on the other hand showed his Pakistaniyat by not only choosing to accede to Pakistan but himself carrying out military aggression against states that were HIS neighbours.

Here is how it played out. Nawab Khanji of Junagarh, despite ruling over a princely state that was 80% Hindu, wanted to accede to Pakistan. India was not happy but per the India Independence Act of 1947, Nawab Khanji was very well within his rights to do this (just as Maharaja Hari Singh was completely within his rights to sign a legal, irrevocable and final Instrument of Accession to India). So GOI at the time could NOT (and did NOT) do what the Pakfilth liars say... ie, they did not oppose Junagarh's accession to Pakistan on the basis of it's Hindu majority.

However, the Nawab of Junagarh did not stop at merely choosing to accede to Pakistan. He invaded and annexed two adjoining princely states of Saurashtra... Babariawad and Mangrol... and tried to compel them ALSO to accede to Pakistan. Using typical Pakfilth techniques... Razakars, organized pogroms against Hindus, military intimidation etc. This is the part of the Junagarh story that completely diverges from any parallel that the Pakfilth try to draw to Kashmir.

Babariawad and Mangrol had no intention of acceding to Pakistan but Nawab Khanji of Junagarh invaded their territory and tried to force their rulers to accede to Pakistan along with him. The rulers of Babariawad and Mangrol, under threat from Junagarh, acceded to India and asked the Indian government for help. Sardar Patel sent IA troops to their rescue.

Immediately Nawab Khanji of Junagarh Pakistaned in his shalwar. He did not even wait to find out what would happen. In true Martial Paki style, he gathered up his riches and his women and fled his princely state for Pakistan as the IA troops approached.

At this point Junagarh was a leaderless state abandoned by it's princely ruler. There was no question of it's acceding to any country because there was no ruler to sign any instrument of accession. So the only alternative (as conceded in writing by the Dewan of Junagarh, the pro-tem in charge after Nawab fled) was to hold a plebiscite. Note that this justification for plebiscite does not apply to J&K AT ALL, because J&K very much had a sitting ruler (Maharaja Hari Singh) who signed his state's accession to India when Kashmir was illegally invaded by Pakistan. Junagarh was *abandoned* by it's ruler so plebiscite was the only option. With an 80% Hindu population, Junagarh of course voted for India in the plebiscite. But had the Nawab not abandoned his state there could never have legally been any plebiscite.

That is how plebiscite came to be held in Junagarh but not in J&K. There was no legal basis for holding it in J&K because Maharaja Hari Singh with full authority to sign an instrument of accession, signed it to India; whereas Nawab Mahabat Khanji of Junagarh, a landgrabbing Paki pig to the core, fled his own state after his Paki stunts of intimidating his neighbours that backfired on him. QED.

Incidentally the Dewan of Junagarh who agreed to a plebiscite after the Nawab fled was one Shahnawaz Bhutto. He himself went on to Pakistan and raised a long line of especially fetid piglings, including Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.


SSridhar wrote:About Kashmir

Even going by the UNSC resolution, it would be very clear who was the aggressor. The operative part of the most important UN Resolution,that of Aug. 13, 1948 states:

Having given careful consideration to the points of view expressed by the representatives of India and Pakistan regarding the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir; and ....
Resolves to submit simultaneously to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following proposal:
As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.
2. The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.
3. Pending a final solution, the territory evacuated by the Pakistani troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission.

B.

1.When the commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2, hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.
2. Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of the cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary.


About Hyderabad

Firstly, a little bit of background. Hyderabad, Deccan was a princely state ruled by the Nizam of Hyderabad, Mir Osman Ali, at the time of the Partition. The Princely state was about 85% Hindu and surrounded on all four sides by a predominantly Hindu British India with no external access except through these lands. The Princely State of Hyderabad had no sea-ports. The Nizam, at that time, was reputed to be the world's richest man.

On the same day the Maharajah of Kashmir signed the Instrument of Accession to India, Oct. 26, 1947, the Nizam was supposed to sign the "Standstill Agreement" with the GoI. The "Standstill Agreement" effectively maintained a status-quo relationship with India while the Nizam could make up his mind about the future of his state. The Nizam essentially did not want to lose his power of lordship over his citizens (I don't blame him, who would ?. But, unfortunately, his desire for perpetuating his rule, flew in the face of the realities of a changed scenario.) He wanted to strike a deal with Jinnah who promised him heaven if Hyderabad so chose to join with Pakistan (this was bribery that Jinnah had successfully done with Islamists, pirs, zamindars, ashrafs and some Princess). The draft Stand-Still agreement had earlier been approved by his Executive Council after three days of debate and had been also negotiated with the Governor-General of India, Lord Mountbatten. However, when the time came to sign it, the Nizam was wavering. In the meanwhile, the Razaakar goons (a private militia under the patronage of the Nizam) of Ittehadul-Muslimeen surrounded the house of the Government of India delegation carrying the Standstill Agreement and forced them to flee. At last, the Nizam signed the Agreement on Nov 29, 1947. However, this incident led to a loss of trust by New Delhi in the Nizam (and rightly so). The Nizam sent an Ittihad (the same religious organization which hounded out the delegation from Delhi earlier) emissary to Jinnah for advice. Jinnah, though he probably knew the futility of a land-locked and Hindu majority state way down south ever being part of Pakistan, still decided to make life miserable for Indian leaders at the cost of the Nizam. He advised the Nizam "not to give an inch" and the Nizam promptly played into his hands. The Princely State of Hyderabad and GoI negotiated for the next nine months to reach an agreement between the Heads of States to formalize the Stand-Still agreement, but the Nizam was steadfast in following Jinnah's advice. The distrust that GoI had started to develop with the Nizam was complete when on June 15, 1948, the Nizam rejected the final draft after it had been re-drafted three times with his Executive Council. The final draft was very generous leaving the Nizam complete control except in matters of Defence, Foreign Affairs and Communication. The Nizam also approached the US which refused to intervene. After considerable debate within the cabinet of GoI, after having exhausted all reasonable avenues, after having waited more than a year, after repeated obstinacy from the Nizam, after the Razaakars had started killing Hindus and raping their women, and after a couple of last-minute postponements at the instance of the First Indian Governor-General Rajagoplachari in order to give more time to the Nizam for sanity, the Indian Government finally launched Operation Polo on Sep. 13, 1948. The blame rests entirely with the Nizam and Jinnah, the former for being greedy, power-hungry and oblivious to reality and the latter for his callousness to human lives and suffering just in order to make lives of India and Indian leaders miserable, a prospect which his inflated ego always relished and which has been passed on as a legacy till this day to his successors and nation. With the end of Jinnah nearing in August, the Nizam's game was up.

About Junagadh


Junagadh was again a Princely State in the Kathiawar area on the Saurashtra coast of Gujarat with 95% Hindu population with a Muslim ruler and like Hyderabad not having any geographical contiguity with Pakistan.The story starts with an unexpected announcement by the Nawab of Junagadh on Aug. 15, 1947 to accede to Pakistan. There was no response from Pakistan till Sep. 13 when it announced its acceptance. This came as a surprise to Indian Govt because India and Pakistan had decided not to have enclaves of one country inside the other. That was why India had refused the plea of the Khan of Kalat, the largest Princely State of Balochistan, as it had no physical contiguity with India. A mass protest movement started in Junagadh as a result. An Indian representative, V.P. Menon, was sent to Junagadh to talk to the Nawab who refused to meet him. Upon this, he met the Dewan (aka, Prime Minister in modern parlance), Sir Shah Nawaz Bhutto (yes, you are right, the father of Z.A. Bhutto and the grandfather of Madam BB) who agreed with VP that he personally favoured a referrendum for ascertaining the wishes of the people. Sir. Bhutto would later play a crucial role, as we would see. On the 18th of Sep, the neighbouring Sheikh of Mangrol, a vassal state of Junagadh, signed Instrument of Accession with India. Both Mangrol and Babariawad, another vassal state that had acceded to India, argued that with the lapse of Paramountcy, they were independent to take decisions. This caused resentment to the Nawab of Junagadh to order his troops to invade Babariawad. This was rightly construed by GoI as an act of aggression on Indian territory. However, the GoI desisted from taking any action till the British Constitutional experts opined on the legality of the actions of Mangrol and Babariawad. In the meanwhile, the GoI asked the Nawab to withdraw his forces from Babariawad which the Nawab refused on 25th Sep. After the legal opinion was obtained on the admissibility of the Instruments of Accession of Mangrol and Babariawad, the GoI decided to take military action by end Sep. The GoI decided to send troops to the Kathiawar region, to the borders of Babariawad and Junagdh, awaiting further orders. Even as the troop deployment was about to begin, the Nawab of Junagadh went ahead and occupied Mangrol on 1st Oct. The GoI then instructed the Indian commander to prepare a plan for the retrieval of Mangrol and Babariawad. On Oct. 5, the GoI issued a detailed press statement on the situation there. Nehru asked Liaqat Ali, the Pakistani PM, on Oct 5, to ask the Nawab to withdraw from Mangrol and Babariawad. Liaqat Ali replied evasively. More than 5 weeks after the Nawab invaded, and after repeated attempts to end it peacefully, the patience of the GoI ran out and on Nov. 1, a small Indian force accompanied by civilian administrators, re-possessed both Babariawad and Mangrol peacefully. In the meanwhile, the situation in Junagadh itself was becoming very difficult. On 27 Oct, Sir. Bhutto wrote to Jinnah thus "The Muslims of Kathiawar seem to have lost all enthusiasm for Pakistan". The Nawab had already fled to Pakistan on Oct. 24, on seeing the Indian forces, taking with him the entire cash balance of the treasury, his kennel of a thousand dogs and his Begums. It was Sir. Bhutto who was running the show in Junagadh now. On Nov. 5, the Junagadh State Council decided that "it was necessary to have a complete re-orientation of the State Policy and a re-adjustment of relations with the two Dominions even if it involves reversal of the earlier decision of accession to Pakistan". On Nov. 8, the Dewan, Sir. Shah Nawaz Bhutto requested the Indian Government to take over Junagadh. The request was promptly accepted. A referrendum was conducted on Feb 20, 1948 and the state was merged with Saurashtra on Feb 20, 1949.

In the case of both Hyderabad and Junagadh, as in Jammu&Kashmir, it is very obvious that in spite of grave provocation, India stuck to legalities, a step-by-step process, attempt at peaceful resolution and resorted to arms as a last resort only. And, in the case of Junagadh per se, there was no military action at all

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Re: Counter Propaganda

Postby sanjaykumar » 15 Sep 2010 07:21

The Dalai Lama as Indian president is a good example of successful propanda. I proposed this a few months ago and here it reprises, expropriated by the public. I do expect to see this in Indian media shortly.

Good propaganda is more propagandhi and less propagandu.


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