The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

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The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby HarryH » 04 Oct 2010 15:49

Original Article: http://civilizedaxis.blogspot.com/2010/10/epicenters-of-terrorism.html
by Dr. Harry Haagen

Monday October 4, 2010:

Image

There is a popular concept that the root of islamic terror in the modern world lies in the fascist and litteral interpretation of Islam's holy books - the Koran and the Hadiths, by people often devoid of even the basic education that people in the civilized world receive at elementary school level. This is however not a complete representation of the truth. Otherwise, there would be no reason to explain how scientists, doctors, and lawyers are also involved in the preparation and execution of terrorist campaigns throughout the world.


The fact of the matter is that Islamic fundamentalism is nothing new, albeit in the middle ages, it was mainly people of no formal education (feudal warlords, berbers, corsairs etc) who engaged in worldwide conquest in the name of Islam, i.e. Jihad. Well, they were stopped by various people - by the mercenary forces at the gates of Vienna, by the Hospitalier Knights in Malta, by the Rajputs, Marathas and Sikhs in South Asia, by the Chinese, by the Russians in the Caucasus and all those non-descript people who refused to be subdued by the fascist ideologies promulgated under the Islamic Caliphate. If it was not for these people, our world today would have been a desolate world with rampant child abuse, women battering, mercy killings, slave trading and so on and so forth.

However, the present world is a different story. The same illiterate Islamic populace cannot wage wars like they used to in the past, simply because the world is more complex than a flat flying carpet and the civilized nations have much better defence logistics in place to deal with a horde of barbarians. The game has changed. Which is why Islamic extremism needs new blood, military muscle and dollars to subdue the world.

As far as the dollars are concerned, no problem. Saudi Arabia is the motherland of all terro-dollars that can be used to finance the global Jihad. But the main problem is this: Arabia has been, and still is a third world country with a highly undecuated population. Arabs are not known for their work ethic, their intelligence or their ingenuity. In fact, most of the greatest works produced during the Islamic "Golden Age" were by Persians (who are a world apart from Arabs, and who were forcefully converted to Islam through coercion, dhimmitude, genocide, rapes and enslavement). To this day, Arabland is still the same except for the oil. So they have money, but nothing much else.

Where in the world would the Arabs be able to find the new blood, the military muscle required to help them in "Ghazwa-E-Duniya" (world islamic conquest)? Well, it would certainly have to be from an Arab-loving country. That country as we know it is Pakistan. Formed from the remnants of the British Colonization of India, Pakistan was created on the sole basis of religion. The people themselves are descendants of the Hindus from the great Indus Valley civilization, whose ancestors were forcefully converted (just like the Persians - refer above) to Islam by invading arab/turk armies. They are exactly similar to their brethrens in Northern India, speak the same language, but differ in religion and live with a very tangible inferiority complex. They advocate themselves as descendants of the great Arab rulers (who are they kidding? they are Indians, except for the experiment that went hay-wire: Pakistan) and love Arabs to the point of obsession. They were poor, as the British did not leave much for the subcontinent and needed to assert their identity and islamic ideals, and for this they needed - yes you guessed it right - dollars.

The royals of Saudi Arabia saw in experimental Pakistan the opportunity of a lifetime, or of several lifetimes starting from the Islamic Caliphate's decline beginning from the siege of Vienna. Pakistan was the world's largest non-arab muslim population in the world and had unconditional love for the Arabs. The rest is history. Terro Dollars starting flowing into Pakistan for a specific reason: Pakistan represented the best hope for the muslim world to restart global Jihad. For once, they were not Arabs; they hailed from an Indian civilization that was ingenious, hard working and above all easy to manipulate. The Arabs invested heavily in the project Pakistan.

The return on investment? Pakistan has the largest number of university level graduates and professionals in the muslim world (that's just because of the sheer size, they still are a shame in terms of percentage of the population). Pakistan got the Islamic world what it always had dreamed of: the Islamic Hydrogen Bomb. Pakistan boasts the highest number of madrassas that teach Wahhabism in the world. Pakistan has the biggest and most potent military of all muslim nations. Pakistan has become the military arm, the sword of the Islamic Caliphate, whose office lies in Riyadh.

With the Pakistan experiment, Saudi Arabia was able to do two things. First, acquire the most prized weapon in the history of mankind, the h-bomb. At the same time, it was able to still get terro dollars from Americans and the rest of the world since for us, Saudi Arabia was nothing but a corrupt monarchy where the royals were bent on making tons of money by selling petroleum to the world. The facade worked well: it was not Saudi Arabia after all who was building the bomb, it was Pakistan. We know better now... 9/11 taught us what those Saudis were really up to.

Indoctrinated with extreme fundamentalism from the Arabs, the Pakistanis soon forgot the secular ideals of Jinnah, the creator of Pakistan and started madrassas at every street corner to teach an army of jihadists the concept of martyrdom in Islam's name so that they can go on to wage global Jihad in India and the rest of the world.

Well, graduation time came for these madrassas. Just like a fungus spreads millions of spores an each one of them turns into another fungus, Pakistan's madrassas have bloomed with a hundreds of thousands of youngsters whose primary objective in life is to die in Allah's name. They fear nothing, they want nothing but total world conversion and dominance. The majority of them are jobless, but a sizeable number are professionals with college degrees who whenever given the chance migrate to the civilized world and act as sleepers ready to be fielded to the battlefield upon signal from Islamabad, or from Riyadh, or from the dude hiding in the caves along the Pak-Afghan border.

It is no surprise that Pakistanis have allowed the Taliban and the dude hiding the caves to operate freely in their country - their country is the haven for religious fanaticism. But global jihad cannot be won solely by war, it has to be won by diplomacy when the adverse forces are too overwhelming to handle, as taught by the prophet. This is the reason why Pakistan became the US ally in the war on terror - another farce just to avoid facing US wrath and to continue receiving billions of dollars in "aid" to finance its activities.

Make no mistake. The epicenter of terrorism in the world is not Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran for that matter. It is Pakistan, which is a direct subject of the Saudis. Remember, Saudi Terro Dollars + Pakistan = Terrorists Factories churning Jihadists by the thousands and unleashing them onto the civilized world!

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby archan » 04 Oct 2010 15:54

please post in Pakistan thread and Pakistani role in Terrorism thread. Thanks.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Nandu » 04 Oct 2010 15:58

IB4TL

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Neela » 04 Oct 2010 16:24

Admins,
Can we have a look at the Saudi influence on TSP? Does it merit a look?

Edited:
I like the post. Simple, to the point and a good flow to the conclusion.

Harry, you might want to look at Shiv's youtube video of Pakistan's nuclear bomb. That part of Pakistan's bomb needs a few sentences so that people also are aware of Pakistani proliferation.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby sunnyP » 04 Oct 2010 18:16

Image

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby RajeshA » 04 Oct 2010 18:21

HarryH ji,

nice piece!

We have a few threads dealing with some aspects of the subject:
  1. Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP)
  2. Pakistani Role in Global Terrorism
  3. International Terrorism Watch
  4. Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis
  5. West Asia News and Discussions

I believe your post would fit well in 'International Terrorism Watch'.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Sagrawal » 04 Oct 2010 18:38

IB4TL

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby jagga » 04 Oct 2010 19:06

IB4TL!!!!!!

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby hulaku » 04 Oct 2010 19:11

IB4TL to get my 99 virgins

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby naren » 04 Oct 2010 19:48

IB4TL :p

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Klaus » 04 Oct 2010 20:03

Nice topic for discussion.

IB4TL here......!!!

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby akashganga » 04 Oct 2010 21:36

Good post Harry. What you say is very close to reality. Saudis are the masters/owners of islam. Saudis are using pakis as useful idiots.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby harbans » 04 Oct 2010 22:43

I think it's a good idea to discuss the Saudi-Paki terror linkages to terrorism and fundamentalism worldwide in a more specific environment.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby ramana » 05 Oct 2010 00:53

Also explore the links to who sustains these two twin towers of terrorism.

Harry the earliest supporters of Palestine were non-religious Arab Nationlists. After their support ebbed away it became rallying point for Islamist fundamentalists. The Camp David accords made the Arab nationalists incapable.

Guys the writer posted for comments. If you don't have any please stay away.
Thanks, ramana

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby akashganga » 05 Oct 2010 01:22

There is no scope for secular nationalism among at least non-arab muslims. You should read this brilliant book from noble laurate VS Naipaul:

Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted Peoples by VS Naipaul

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Pulikeshi » 05 Oct 2010 01:31

The article is a good start at looking at the interrelationships between Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan.
A lot of the basic points that I am going to make are there... want more details :-)

Couple of quick points:

1. Sketch the factors that compel Saudi Arabia geo-politically to use Islam as a force for change.
What factors, for example Iran, Iraq, Israel, US, etc. force it to consider the use of funding
terrorism as a cheap way to achieve geo-political goals. From the article, it is not clear for
me what the goals are... that provides incentive for such behavior.

2. {Saudi money and Pakistani muscle/brain} is a good way to summarize what you have...
The money also explains why the Pakistani's previously enamoured by their Moghul, Turkic
and Persian ancestors, have now switched over to Arab. A la Michael Jackson, they hate the
very Indian skin they were born with...

3. In the paragraph, "With the Pakistan experiment, Saudi Arabia was able to do two things."
Summary: 1) Build a bomb by proxy and 2) Obtain $$s for oil. Why?
Goes back to my point #1. Sketching out the reason will make the argument more compelling.
Are the Saudis hedging against the US/Israel in obtaining the bomb by proxy?, etc.

4. That Jihad's (terrorism's) end goal is the caliphate, is for the mango abdul. There is an
intelligentsia controlling the mango abdul for geo-political purposes. Including needling
existing powers. One can make a more compelling argument if that relationship is sketched
out with greater clarity.

Overall, kudos for a good effort. It was pretty well written.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Carl_T » 05 Oct 2010 04:03

Good writeup. Saudi Arabia has been following a policy of stealth imperialism in the last 40 years, rolling back local versions of Islam and financing their own pet version - the cause of Pakistan's new fascination with being Arap instead of Turkish or Persian as Pullikeshi noted above. Now many argue that all these steps are taken in order to wrest control of leadership of the "ummah", but for that to happen, KSA needs to invest in its human capital and learn to develop technological advantages over its rivals - something it really has been missing. Is the American security shield hobbling as well as protecting KSA?


Minor nitpick, I don't think Pakistan produces the most college graduates in the Muslim world, I think that is Iran.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Chinmayanand » 05 Oct 2010 04:11

Harry , if you just add CIA to the list , the holy Trinity of Islamic terrorism will complete.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby AKalam » 05 Oct 2010 22:04

Chinmayanand wrote:Harry , if you just add CIA to the list , the holy Trinity of Islamic terrorism will complete.


Well said.

Arabs have been under Turks since the fall of Baghdad and Turk Mamluks were already powerful from before that time. With a "glorious" past history of the Khilafa, the Arabs resented often heavy handed Turk rule and waited for a chance to get back at their master, which they did before and during first world war with help of France and UK (Lawrence of Arabia, Sykes Picot agreement etc.). Once freed from Turk rule, the reigning global powers of the time UK/France divided up the Arab regions of North Africa and Gulf among themselves under tinpot kingdoms. Most of them became independent eventually as French and British empire rolled back after WW II and oil was found in the region that became a new critical element of world economy as a form of easily transportable liquid energy, in addition to already heavily used coal.

So a backward people with a past Imperial history, subjugated for centuries, suddenly find themselves with a huge pot of black gold. Also, in Palestine, they find a cause to rally the Muslims. What these block heads did not realize was that the West has given them freedom from the Turks for a price, which was visible in the festering Palestine problem. It was too late to get humpty dumpty (Ottoman) back on the wall, but no problem, now they dream of an Arab or Saudi Wahabi led Islamic Khilafa with Egyptian (of the brotherhood kind) brains working for it (OBL and Jwahiri combination is a classic example) and of course the agrieved Palestinian judge Navani starts his own brain child Hizb-ut-Tahrir.

Arab Nationalism supported earlier by French/British empire was later hijacked by the Soviets as a tool against the tinpot kingdoms/dictatorships in the Arab world to counter US influence during the cold war. And of course CIA found it convenient to stoke the Arab dreams of empire a notch to counter Soviet expansionism, an example of which was Afghanistan.

As a Muslim from Bangladesh, I have witnessed the change from our traditional Khuda-Hafeez to more recent Allah-Hafeez, a tell tale example of increasing Arab influence over sub-continental Muslim societies in the past few decades. While Arabs invested most of their oil wealth to their patron and protector, the West, they did throw a small portion of it to subcontinental and other Sunni Muslim socities around the world, possibly as an insurance policy for the future.

Saudi led OIC has an Engineering University near Dhaka:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Un ... Technology

Blind religious belief, centuries of backwardness and money is a sad combination, unfortunately.

If the money went into Turkish hands instead of Arab hand, we would probably see a slightly different outcome, but if Turks were so great, Ottoman would not fall to begin with. Similary here in the sub-continent, I would say that the Muslim leadership since the fall of Mughal, was transferred from the traditional Turko-Mughal elite somewhat to more numerous Iranic-Afghani and local converted Punjabi/Kashmiri/North Indian elite, a switch that probably made a big difference in the tone of leadership which became more devoid of reason and more imbued with emotion, again not that the earlier had a distinguished record, the differences are only minor and relative, as most are of heterogenous origins by that time frame. Wahabization of sub-continental Islam coincided with this switch I believe in 19th century and it had some role in the final act of Partition which was another set back for the entire sub-continent. Just some useless observations.

I think there are many schools of thought about what to do with Islam as a problem ideology/religion as it seems to have caused so much problem in the past in many parts of the world, as it is causing today. But it is wishful thinking that it will go away any time soon, as it is so hoped by so many of its past and present victims. It happened in some places such as Spain, but those are rather exceptions than the rule. Ridicules and put-downs and long term plans of elimination will only make their sense of victimization even worse. From my personal experience I have found Central Asian Turkic people to be more reasonable and easier to work with than Arabs for example. So I think it is possible to alter the course of subcontinental (as well as world) Muslim societies in a p(b)ositive direction, away for Arab led delusions, probably with more involvement of Muslims from Turkey, former soviet Central Asia and Caucasus regions and make it more of a spiritual belief devoid of politics and dreams of empire. But then again I would be called an Islamist for such thoughts, after all Islam and Muslims are a hopeless lot, it is probably better that both should go away from the face of the earth and world will be better place for it.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby sanjeevpunj » 05 Oct 2010 22:18

What happens where they finish the oil, is one question that they themselves keep asking.....................

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Manishw » 05 Oct 2010 22:38

^ They can export IT directly as Pakistan is already doing.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby akashganga » 06 Oct 2010 01:24

I find many muslims from Indian subcontinent looking to Turks. Looks like over time they have looked at arabs and turks for inspiration. That is the tragedy for them as well as for people of the subcontinent. They try hard to forget that their ancestors were Indian and practiced Indian religions of that time and all achievements by people of subcontinent over many thousands are years are as much theirs as their hindu neighbors.

In my opinion any organized religion as opposed to spiritualism is nothing but culture of people from whom it came out. Organized islam cannot be anything but arabic the same way organized hindu tradition cannot but be indian.

My 2 cents.

AKalam wrote:
Chinmayanand wrote:Harry , if you just add CIA to the list , the holy Trinity of Islamic terrorism will complete.


Well said.

Arabs have been under Turks since the fall of Baghdad and Turk Mamluks were already powerful from before that time. With a "glorious" past history of the Khilafa, the Arabs resented often heavy handed Turk rule and waited for a chance to get back at their master, which they did before and during first world war with help of France and UK (Lawrence of Arabia, Sykes Picot agreement etc.). Once freed from Turk rule, the reigning global powers of the time UK/France divided up the Arab regions of North Africa and Gulf among themselves under tinpot kingdoms. Most of them became independent eventually as French and British empire rolled back after WW II and oil was found in the region that became a new critical element of world economy as a form of easily transportable liquid energy, in addition to already heavily used coal.

So a backward people with a past Imperial history, subjugated for centuries, suddenly find themselves with a huge pot of black gold. Also, in Palestine, they find a cause to rally the Muslims. What these block heads did not realize was that the West has given them freedom from the Turks for a price, which was visible in the festering Palestine problem. It was too late to get humpty dumpty (Ottoman) back on the wall, but no problem, now they dream of an Arab or Saudi Wahabi led Islamic Khilafa with Egyptian (of the brotherhood kind) brains working for it (OBL and Jwahiri combination is a classic example) and of course the agrieved Palestinian judge Navani starts his own brain child Hizb-ut-Tahrir.

Arab Nationalism supported earlier by French/British empire was later hijacked by the Soviets as a tool against the tinpot kingdoms/dictatorships in the Arab world to counter US influence during the cold war. And of course CIA found it convenient to stoke the Arab dreams of empire a notch to counter Soviet expansionism, an example of which was Afghanistan.

As a Muslim from Bangladesh, I have witnessed the change from our traditional Khuda-Hafeez to more recent Allah-Hafeez, a tell tale example of increasing Arab influence over sub-continental Muslim societies in the past few decades. While Arabs invested most of their oil wealth to their patron and protector, the West, they did throw a small portion of it to subcontinental and other Sunni Muslim socities around the world, possibly as an insurance policy for the future.

Saudi led OIC has an Engineering University near Dhaka:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Un ... Technology

Blind religious belief, centuries of backwardness and money is a sad combination, unfortunately.

If the money went into Turkish hands instead of Arab hand, we would probably see a slightly different outcome, but if Turks were so great, Ottoman would not fall to begin with. Similary here in the sub-continent, I would say that the Muslim leadership since the fall of Mughal, was transferred from the traditional Turko-Mughal elite somewhat to more numerous Iranic-Afghani and local converted Punjabi/Kashmiri/North Indian elite, a switch that probably made a big difference in the tone of leadership which became more devoid of reason and more imbued with emotion, again not that the earlier had a distinguished record, the differences are only minor and relative, as most are of heterogenous origins by that time frame. Wahabization of sub-continental Islam coincided with this switch I believe in 19th century and it had some role in the final act of Partition which was another set back for the entire sub-continent. Just some useless observations.

I think there are many schools of thought about what to do with Islam as a problem ideology/religion as it seems to have caused so much problem in the past in many parts of the world, as it is causing today. But it is wishful thinking that it will go away any time soon, as it is so hoped by so many of its past and present victims. It happened in some places such as Spain, but those are rather exceptions than the rule. Ridicules and put-downs and long term plans of elimination will only make their sense of victimization even worse. From my personal experience I have found Central Asian Turkic people to be more reasonable and easier to work with than Arabs for example. So I think it is possible to alter the course of subcontinental (as well as world) Muslim societies in a p(b)ositive direction, away for Arab led delusions, probably with more involvement of Muslims from Turkey, former soviet Central Asia and Caucasus regions and make it more of a spiritual belief devoid of politics and dreams of empire. But then again I would be called an Islamist for such thoughts, after all Islam and Muslims are a hopeless lot, it is probably better that both should go away from the face of the earth and world will be better place for it.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby ramana » 06 Oct 2010 08:53

Akalam, Hats off for an accurate picture. Thanks, ramana

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby ramana » 01 Apr 2015 02:09

Time to revive this topic:

X-post from baki thread...
SSridhar wrote:The Saudis have put their pride on the table in the Yemen issue. They need to win. They know that air strikes are not going to get them reach their goal. They need boots on the ground. The only worthwhile boots they can get are from Pakistan and possibly Egypt. But, both countries have their own internal problems to contend with. Saudis have more leverage and familiarity with the Pakistani armed forces than with their Egyptian counterparts. They also know that for some sumptuous monetary gain, they would do anything. The Saudi armed forces are rag tag. I know but don't ask me how. This is an open secret anyway. They are completely incapable and incompetent. They are neither capable of bravery, nor planning nor handling equipment (leave alone complex pieces of equipment). They have no experience of a war. They were never involved in Op Desert Storm though Lt. Gen Khalid bin Sultan was appointed ceremonially as the commander of the Arab forces and did his best to mess up. If the US had not intervened through Op. Desert Shield, Iraq would have swallowed KSA in no time in c. 1989, after Kuwait.

Yemen has been a source of constant problem for the Saudis. In the 1960s war, it had to fight against Nasser's Egypt which deposed the Royalty, but again the UK & US were on its side. It has a border dispute with Yemen and there is a large influx of Yemenis in Saudi Arabia. The bin Laden family is itself a Hadramout Yemeni. Except for such influential Yemenis, the Saudis, in their usual arrogance treat the Yemenis as dirt and place many restrictions on them. The Yemenis in Saudi Arabia are extremely displeased with the Saudis. Yemen had been prosperous and had a civilization and culture unknown to the Rub-al-Khali tribes before Saudi Arabia as a country was born and oil was struck.

Added to that is the headache of Shi'as gaining control there now. From a religious point of view and its own stability and wealth point of view, the Saudis would want to keep the Shi'as under a tight leash. That was why they sent their rag tag troops to Bahrain when riots erupted there, FWIW. However, their misadventure with the ISIS cost them a lot politically. They were so outraged with the US for discontinuing its support after promising it that they even refused the UNSC rotational membership. Obama had to re-establish the relationship by departing early from India after the R-day celebrations.

The Iran-US-IAEA denouement on the nuclear programme is another source of great constipation for KSA. The worry can be gauged from the extent to which KSA has reportedly gone, that of having some secret understanding with Israel to take out the Iranian facilities.

The oil has plummeted and the effect on the Saudi economy would be visible shortly. The new King, in order to seal his hold on the throne, has been ostentatious in giving away billions to his citizens and tribes. The next Saudi budget should reveal that though the Saudi budgets are usually efforts at masking the real monetary issues. Since Gulf War, the Saudi budgets have been deficit budgets and KSA was forced to even borrow from the IMF at times. Those woes continue. The latest efforts in Syria and Yemen must add to that as Pakistan would extract its pound of flesh.

Pakistan smells an opportunity, like a shark, in the woeful situation of KSA. I think the two Sharifs are playing the usual good cop-bad cop drama with KSA.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby ramana » 30 Sep 2015 23:02

X-Posting as this is the right thread for this!!!

SSridhar wrote:Why The Collapse Of Saudi Arabia Is Inevitable - By Nafeez Ahmed at Middle East Eye

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Prem » 01 Oct 2015 01:31

By 2017-2018, Saudi will need to maintain pucca customers for their crude. This is where India can play the ball/game to tame the rabid terrorist Poqaane.

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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby shiv » 01 Oct 2015 06:36

When I saw the title - I thought "Oh no - here is a secular article that will fail to nail the connection of Sunni Islam with terrorism from Pakistan, with Saudi funding and encouragement"

But no. The article is perfectly clear and truthful.

Of course the issue of terrorism has been muddied by the fact that Islam kills its own people first while hiding behind the twin lies of "peace" and "primacy of God". Because Islamic societies are so busy slaughtering each other, their unity in slaughtering non Muslims appears, to an outsider as fervour or faith. The definition "terrorism" is inadequate to explain the reason why a Sunni may murder an Ahmedi. The weapons are the same. The violence is the same, the victim and his near and dear ones feel just as terrorized as anyone else.

Two more historic factors have encouraged Islamic societies. The method of spread of Islam uses the same methods as the Church did and the Church has maintained the same degree of denial as Islam when it comes to explaining how these lovin' peaceful Gods spread and thrive on what is essentially terrorism. Nations controlled by the Church saw no more harm in Islam doing its violent thing on non Islamic societies than they saw in Christian armies spreading the name of the good lord on pagan societies. It was only when the Christian west met the Islamic east that there was conflict. There was only understanding and empathy when one religion went west and the other went east, pillaging and killing as they went.

To that extent the article above is a rehashing of what is well known on BRF but which has never even been believed as true in either Europe or America. Right up until the 1940s the ill treatment of pagans was as acceptable from a primarily Christian perspective as violence against "kafirs" is from an Islamic perspective. It is only post world war 2 "Universalism" and a gradual conversion of western societies into a western liberal mould that makes Islam stand out. But even as recently as the 1940s British colonialists negotiating in India agreed with Islamists that Muslims were a breed apart who deserved a separate nation because they could not live with non Muslims. Earlier colonial machinations had helped Ibn Wahhab and his terrorists to take over Arabia and the presence of oil under Arabia has allowed the world to sit back without condemning Saudi Arabia for its blatant racist bigotry using a whole bunch of lame excuses like "sovereign nation" "Freedom of religion" etc. No one seems to mention that "Freedom of religion" means freedom to kill others in the name of religion. So when the Islamists killed Russians just 30 odd years ago it was fine. When the Islamists killed Indians - a process that has gone on since before 1947 - no sweat.

But now, with Islamists attacking the west, some attention is being paid to what is actually ho hum boring well known facts to anyone with one eye half open in India. Anyhow - even one eye extra that is opened and one person who is woken up is useful. Pakistan was the first nation set up as a reservation for violent Islamists, way back in 1947. Someone wake me up when this becomes a broadly accepted meme. Until then it will all be chai biskoot only

shiv
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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby shiv » 01 Oct 2015 07:04

akashganga wrote:I find many muslims from Indian subcontinent looking to Turks. Looks like over time they have looked at arabs and turks for inspiration. That is the tragedy for them as well as for people of the subcontinent. They try hard to forget that their ancestors were Indian and practiced Indian religions of that time and all achievements by people of subcontinent over many thousands are years are as much theirs as their hindu neighbors.

In case you don't know the word for Muslim in Karnataka is "Turuka", and in Tamil Nadu it is "Turugan" -both meaning "Turk" . There is no other word. The word "Muslim" does not exist. Mussalman is a word imported from the North and Muslim is an English word.

I am certain the earliest influences came from people who owed their origins and allegiance to the Khalif (Caliph) - there can be no other explanation for this terminology. Let me add some non-scientific observations as masala. There is so much endogamy among Muslims in South India that Muslims suffer from perhaps the worst cases of diabetes related complications.And this endogamy can explain the fact that to this day, along with the very very SDRE southern features of many south Indian Muslims we still get a slight "Central Asian" appearance among some Muslims.

As Neville Maxwell points out in his book about the India-China war, the concept of "fixed borders" for nation states is a relatively recent phenomenon. Fixed borders for Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are an artificial construct that have been firmed up by conquest and violence. Only armed force can protect those artificial borders. The strongest and most violent armed force will rule.

Vayutuvan
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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Oct 2015 09:15

shiv> In case you don't know the word for Muslim in Karnataka is "Turuka", and in Tamil Nadu it is "Turugan" -both meaning "Turk" .
----
In Telugu too it is same as kannada. It is written (transliteration) "turuka" or "turaka".

JE Menon
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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby JE Menon » 01 Oct 2015 12:54

In Malayalam, it is "Tulukan" - but there is also maplah, methan,

chetak
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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby chetak » 01 Oct 2015 14:51

The MEA seems to have been unshackled like never before!!!

and the tweet has had a good response too.

how very un MMS like

Vikas Swarup ‏@MEAIndia 15h15 hours ago
Pakistan is not primary victim of terrorism but of its own policies. It is in fact the prime sponsor of terrorism.
1,355 retweets 691 favorites

panduranghari
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Re: The Epicenters of Terrorism: Pakistan & Saudi Arabia

Postby panduranghari » 01 Oct 2015 17:12

What next for Pak Saudi axis?

Image

Nigeria and Indonesia can contribute to the wahabi armies when Pak cannot. The insurance policy on spreading petrodollar love might just work.


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