The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

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chetak
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Nov 2019 17:23

the muslims, the britshits, the commies, naxals and conversion jehadi BIF have been following the "broken window" theory to constantly vilify, demean, distort and abuse the Hindus and Hinduism.

They have reached such a stage that they refuse to accept the SC verdict that has proved that indeed there was a (very conveniently worded!!) "non islamic structure" underneath the babri mosque.

they are also now slyly pushing the canard that the so called non islamic structure may have already been in ruins before some joker called mir baqi, a wandering moghul general chanced upon it and in a sudden fit, an uncontrollable urge, so to say, to build a mosque atop these very ruins seized him and he then piously did his islamic duty.


This is the only article that chronicles the civilizational pain and unshakeable determination of the Hindus to evict these scoundrels from a temple they had usurped and destroyed half a millennia ago.


Why Didn’t Hindus Give Up Ram Mandir?



Why Didn’t Hindus Give Up Ram Mandir?

What do you say of a people who carry on a movement over a piece of land for over half a millennium? What explains that they neither forgot nor any amount of atrocities made them give up their claims on the land?

r.mitra@indiafacts.org' Rajat Mitra
Identity (Distortion & Appropriation) | 10-11-2019

What do you say of a people who carry on a movement over a piece of land for over half a millennium? What explains that they neither forgot nor any amount of atrocities made them give up their claims on the land? That Mughal rule, Colonial rule, oppression and genocidal violence had no deterrence to their hope that one day they will regain it back.

The Ram Mandir perhaps is the only example in human history when a people struggled and fought for a period of over five hundred years to regain a piece of land from their invaders who had destroyed one of their holiest spots and thought they had exterminated their religion.

The Hindus simply didn’t give up. They didn’t accept defeat in the face of overwhelming odds, most important when their own historians were not on their side. Even though they felt discouraged and heartbroken during the long Mughal and Colonial rule when power was not in their hands, invaders who tried to exterminate their religion and their civilization, they held on tenaciously to their symbols of hope and never let despair overtake them. How do we explain it?

Welcome to the new Hindu. A one who is emerging from the ashes of history, from the dark woods of despair as the poets called it. He is claiming his human rights that were taken away from him. It is a spirit that I would call unparalleled in the history of mankind. Mocked and persecuted like a slave, told that he is a savage and no better, intolerant and cruel, he today proved everyone wrong with their prophecies falling to the dust. Has the time finally come for the Hindu and his civilization to assert himself?

I believe so and I am not the only one who dreams like that today. I believe we symbolize one of the most valuable lessons to mankind and that is to never give up hope.

The Hindu has gone through a genocidal violence that almost exterminated his existence. It is denied by the world. Period. He has been enslaved, tortured and brutalized where his Islamic and Christian invaders tried to annihilate his civilization. It is a miracle how he adapted and navigated through all those hardships and adversities. After centuries of oppression, he is finally telling the world why he continued to resist untill his last breath in the face of historical oppression.

To me, the credit for the verdict on Ram Janma Bhumi goes to the unknown Hindu. The unknown ‘kar sevak’ who braved bullets, the sadhus who bore the lathis, the unknown man from the village who saved money to send a brick for the temple. It is they who kept the flame of the movement alive, hoping for the day when Shri Ram will be restored to his birthplace.

The temple when it is built will represent and stand for much more than a temple. It will be a monument to man’s courage in the face of religious persecution. It will bring hope to generations who may feel despondent about their oppression. It will be a symbol for the persecuted minorities and majorities worldwide to struggle and regain their lost heritage. To all Hindus barring a few, it will be a symbol of devotion, hope, and resilience.

To some it may become a symbol of shame, that is if they have that in the first place, an atonement, a reminder of what they ought to have done being a Hindu but never did so. They were the ones who distorted history, fought against the truth of the excavations.

The Hindu society has come a long way since the first temples were destroyed by the Islamic invaders centuries ago. Our society has been in grief, traversing from denial to rage to bargaining and rationalization as Elizabeth Kubler Ross explained it half a century ago in explaining her stages of grief. The grief has made the Hindu society stronger, more resilient and able to withstand the adversities that colonialism, persecution, and atrocities bring along with it.

It is time we acknowledge this resilience in our own. It runs in our blood and bones. We may have a thousand faults in ourselves as people, some real, some imaginary, but we need to still tell ourselves, our children and our future generations that we are a people who simply don’t give up when faced with obstacles. That there are very few people like us possibly with the exception of Jewish people. That our Vedas, our books have left something permanent, a residue, however small, within us that psychologically prepares us, ready to bounce back with each fall despite a thousand obstacles that may come in the way. It didn’t make us feel conceited and egoistic, but perhaps a little naive that we fail to acknowledge the greatness of our civilization that our ancestors created and one that may be forgotten.

What is unique about the Ram Janma Bhumi site? I believe one of the things that set it apart from any other place is that apart from the birthplace of Sri Ram, it is a sacred space with a memory that didn’t die and showed it can never be destroyed.

Many years ago I had gone and knelt in front of the Ram Janma Bhoomi. A strange feeling had taken over me. It was as if the space was telling me ‘I don’t have to justify my existence to you or anyone. I am there in your heart. It is you, who have to justify the sacrifice of those who died in my name’.

In that moment, I felt it was as if the space just didn’t tell me the story of a temple destroyed but the entire story of Hinduism.

I had realized what the ancient Hindus, my ancestors would have felt hundreds of years ago before their temples were destroyed, before they began to live in terror feeling the threat of conversion.

The Ram Janma Bhumi trial apart from one of the longest-running trials of history is also important for another reason. It represents a crime against humanity, a genocidal crime whose purpose was to erase the very existence of a people, their religion and culture. The tragic fact is it continues through other methods today in the form of mass conversions and the building of numerous religious structures that do not preach co-existence between faiths.

Many years ago I had visited a concentration camp in Germany. Outside the gate, there was a sign written ‘never again’. Showing me a large number of school children, my guide told me it was meant for the future generations so that no one ever dares to do it again. Should we also not have museums next door? Should we not create a memorial to the unknown ‘kar sevak’ who gave his life? Maybe only then it will tell our children the true story of what it means to uphold our freedom. Shouldn’t Ram temple, Somnath temple be the places where history should be taught to all our children so that they begin to say ‘never again’?

‘Never Again’ may be two most important words that we need to learn if we have to preserve our civilization. I ask that we start teaching it to our future generations.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 10 Nov 2019 17:34

https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/g ... ya-verdict
November 10, 2019.
‘Go build a school in Bangladesh’: Twitter slams Taslima Nasreen’s take on Ayodhya verdict
By FPJ Web Deskms Taslima Nasreen’s take on Ayodhya verdict
A host of Twitterati took umbrage to Bangaldeshi author-in-exile Taslima Nasreen’s statement asking for a ‘science school to be built in Ayodhya’
Nasreen, who’s in exile from her native Bangladesh and currently stays in India wrote: “If I were a judge, I would have given Ayodhya's 2.77 acres of land to govt in order to build a modern science school where students would study free. And I would also have given 5 acres of land to govt in order to build a modern hospital where patients will get free treatment.”
This didn’t please many of the denizens of Twitter with a right-wing leaning as they lashed out at Nasreen.
Author Shefali Vaidya wrote: “Imagine the sheer shamelessness that would prompt you to say this, when you are a refugee in India begging for your life from the very Hindus that you backstab on every occasion! @taslimanasreen go back to Bangladesh and build schools there, your illiterate countrymen need them.”
IAS officer Sanjay Dixit, known for his fiery takes added: “Be thankful to Bhagwan Ram that Hindus tolerate you in India in spite of your consistent abuse of their hospitality. You couldn’t survive your own country for saying much less. You are an ungrateful guest. @HMOIndia should not renew your visa.”
.....
Gautam

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 10 Nov 2019 18:12

There are multiple unique things to this. The HC judgement has enough to blunt any secular whining. Al this 'faith over facts' nonsense can be easily rebutted.

Krishna Janmasthan/Kashi arent in a similar state as RJBM. They will need a different route. Also even here further excavation if needed should be done. The other two are noted to have Hindu temple artifacts buried under them. So should be easier to prove destruction.

Crux of secular pov (apart from the obvious hatred towards anything yindoo) is that any demolishing & construction above ruins before 47 is A-OK. After isn't. Cos we're not barbarians (coulda fooled me) and so yindooz must always only look at all those mosques with a longing and cannot even think of reclaiming them. Cos secularism.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Nov 2019 18:14

twitter


Two done. One to go. Biwi, all your wishes will be fulfilled!

Lord Ram is saying Tathastu.



Image

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Nov 2019 18:20

distinction between the title to the land vs title to the structure on the land.

I wonder if the SC would do the same for ppl who built their huts on the roadside in say Mumbai...

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 10 Nov 2019 18:25

Bhell ... Googley for the Hindus. Thus is a BIG win for the Muslims. Now what? At the very least future becomes much more complicated. Expect no further reclamation projects in the near future .. maybe not under Modi's watch at least.

https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/stat ... 9299696641
Anand Ranganathan @ARanganathan72

The Supreme court Ayodhya verdict, in ratifying the Place of Worship Act 1991, has made it almost impossible for the aggrieved to seek justice for Kashi & Mathura vandalism.

I accept the stand but am appalled by the negation of natural justice by it. 1/2

Edit: Modi & RSS might not be too unhappy with the above. Modi/BJP can claim to have fulfilled their promise on the "core", close that chapter and keep reaping the benefits for the next 10 years. Having seen the back of the "core" he can focus on the vikas/vishwash side of his agenda. Modi is a smart cookie. Possible.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby KL Dubey » 10 Nov 2019 19:23

pankajs wrote:Bhell ... Googley for the Hindus. Thus is a BIG win for the Muslims. Now what? At the very least future becomes much more complicated. Expect no further reclamation projects in the near future .. maybe not under Modi's watch at least.

https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/stat ... 9299696641
Anand Ranganathan @ARanganathan72

The Supreme court Ayodhya verdict, in ratifying the Place of Worship Act 1991, has made it almost impossible for the aggrieved to seek justice for Kashi & Mathura vandalism.

I accept the stand but am appalled by the negation of natural justice by it. 1/2

Edit: Modi & RSS might not be too unhappy with the above. Modi/BJP can claim to have fulfilled their promise on the "core", close that chapter and keep reaping the benefits for the next 10 years. Having seen the back of the "core" he can focus on the vikas/vishwash side of his agenda. Modi is a smart cookie. Possible.


Once you are tainted by the "JNU gene", it is nearly impossible to cleanse it off. This guy above reveals his true colors on every occasion of significance. When there is a victory, he acts "holier than thou" saying it wasn't enough, as if trying to prove his "super-Hindoo" credentials. When the news is not so positive, he begins criticisms of Modi. Another "fair-weather" friend who cannot be trusted.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby KL Dubey » 10 Nov 2019 19:32

Jai Shri Ram! A great victory. Three important things:

-The court has to appear impartial, but in dispassionate language the verdict has basically reaffirmed the fact of a common occurrence in medieval India: vandalism/razing of temples and using their foundations (and even the structural elements) to build squatter structures.

- The court has been rather too generous in rewarding vandalism by granting land (albeit elsewhere). It is strange that the SC raps the 1949-1992 RJB movement on the knuckles but has nothing to say regarding the original vandalism of the temple by marauders and barbarians.

- As I have been saying for years, the fundamental difference of Hindooism from others is that the deity of each temple is a personification with their own individual identity, characteristics, and powers. The Ram existing in your home mandir is not the same guy as Ram Lalla of Ayodhya, though you can associate both with the same Lawd Ram. The SC has thoroughly affirmed this, as evident from treating Ram Lalla (and not any other deity) as a litigant in the case. In other words, you can relocate other structures elsewhere, but not the home of a deity. There is no limitation on the status of Kashi and Mathura created by this judgement. We really should stop defending ourselves as another "god-is-one" religion.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Sachin » 10 Nov 2019 20:14

KL Dubey wrote:- As I have been saying for years, the fundamental difference of Hindooism from others is that the deity of each temple is a personification with their own individual identity, characteristics, and powers.

I was reading the review petition in the Sabari Mala case. The current verdict seems to have overlooked this fact. There are multiple statements in the petition which says Hindu religion cannot be looked at/made into as a Abrahamic religion. Each diety is unique. Secondly, the diety is considered as a minor legal person who has his/her own view points/voice. This was not considered in Sabari Mala verdict. And third the Devaswom Board acted as the owner of the temple, where as they were only mere custodians of the place. I do get a feeling that part of the Ram Janmabhoomi verdict is going to have an impact on Sabari Mala case also.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby vsunder » 10 Nov 2019 20:25

KL Dubey wrote:
pankajs wrote:Bhell ... Googley for the Hindus. Thus is a BIG win for the Muslims. Now what? At the very least future becomes much more complicated. Expect no further reclamation projects in the near future .. maybe not under Modi's watch at least.

https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/stat ... 9299696641

Edit: Modi & RSS might not be too unhappy with the above. Modi/BJP can claim to have fulfilled their promise on the "core", close that chapter and keep reaping the benefits for the next 10 years. Having seen the back of the "core" he can focus on the vikas/vishwash side of his agenda. Modi is a smart cookie. Possible.


Once you are tainted by the "JNU gene", it is nearly impossible to cleanse it off. This guy above reveals his true colors on every occasion of significance. When there is a victory, he acts "holier than thou" saying it wasn't enough, as if trying to prove his "super-Hindoo" credentials. When the news is not so positive, he begins criticisms of Modi. Another "fair-weather" friend who cannot be trusted.


This Ranganathan kid, then 5 years old, used to walk the avenues of IIT Kanpur with his parents who would forcibly make him recite the entire periodic table much to my amusement. Father was a post-doc of Woodward who won the Nobel prize for his synthesis of vitamin B-12 and Cyclosporin. Father was in the team that did the synthesis. The father married his post-doc a Punjabi lady and he would shout at the top of his voice in the lab " Daarshan" calling his wife in the lab. Eventually many of these kids have turned up on twitter in recent times. Father is from near Tirur, KL.
Last edited by vsunder on 10 Nov 2019 20:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Nov 2019 20:35

SriKumar wrote:I think the thread should be kept alive for a few more weeks/months to deal with the aftermath of the landmark legal verdict. Here is a pdf of the judgement (downloadable)

Da Uninanimous Judgement on Ayodhya Case

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... /JUD_2.pdf

Also there is a timebound activity of identifying land and some trust formation. The judgement, the trust formation and unfolding of land allocation activities are quintessential BRF-type fodder that can get discussed, analyzed and just as importantly their repercussions in society (social media- twitter reactions from the usual suspects) can get recorded here. These are all precedent-setting ativities worth discussing. I dont see a point in creating a new thread for it.


Ideally we should close the thread as the verdict has been reached and the active members had a chance to express their views. Any post verdict discussion should be in follow on thread.

So after I close this thread please start a new one or you can start one right now.

Put link to the verdict and a brief scope of discussion.

Thanks,

ramana

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 10 Nov 2019 20:36

the 1991 act is strange, it contains a specific exception to RJB but otherwise seeks to maintain the status quo of places of worship as existed on 15th August 1947. this can't be changed without significant public & legislative effort.

The Places of Worship (Special Provisions) Act, 1991

https://indiacode.nic.in/handle/1234567 ... 56789/1362

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Supratik » 10 Nov 2019 20:42

It just needs an amendment/overturn legislation in parliament.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 10 Nov 2019 20:48

Rahul M wrote:the 1991 act is strange, it contains a specific exception to RJB but otherwise seeks to maintain the status quo of places of worship as existed on 15th August 1947. this can't be changed without significant public & legislative effort.

The Places of Worship (Special Provisions) Act, 1991

https://indiacode.nic.in/handle/1234567 ... 56789/1362

Yep .. That was pointed out by Coupta IIRC. Have watched too many video to keep track. :D

While Coupta's mention did make me uneasy, its real impact hit me only on seeing the AR's tweet. The SC has sanctified the act by bringing it into the judgement. There will be no legal remedy if I am reading this right.

The other reclamation projects are not going to be easy or straight forward without demolishing this solid wall. Can only be done legislatively and even then will be challenged in the SC now that the judges have linked it to Secularism and Indian constitutional guarantees IIRC.

That is the reason that I think Modi is going to call quits on any further reclamation projects and focus his energies and political capital elsewhere. While with Modi nothing is certain, I at least think he is done for this term.

Added Later: The judgement has started to resemble the long-shot proposed settlement offer my one Muslim person which was promptly shot down by the rest

1. Hindus get the RJB land
2. Muslims get another site
3. Guaranted protection of other sites.
4. Repair of other Mosques in Ayodhya at GOI expense
5. Handing over of some identified ASI maintained Mosques to the Sunni Wakf board
Last edited by pankajs on 10 Nov 2019 21:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Kaivalya » 10 Nov 2019 20:59

I do not have a law background- but I am interested in the perspective that : Time duration to appeal a decision is 6 years. In that context I wanted to see why Nirmohi akhara was denied its suit - but sunni waqf board was not. Why did the Supreme court disagree with the high court? I haven't had the chance to read the pdfs or the full texts yet.

Here is the older transcripts from allahabad high court - can someone help me understand:

1.8. Nirmohi Akhara's suit is not barred by limitation

Sr. Adv. S.K. Jain re-asserted that the Akhara's suit was not barred by limitation. He drew the court's attention to Article 47 of the Limitation Act, 1908, which states that a limitation period begins on the date of the final order. SK Jain argued that there was no final order in the case before the Faizabad magistrate, who had placed the title under State receivership in December 1949. He submitted that therefore, a cause of action never accrued, meaning the limitation period never kicked in. He added that even if Article 120 applies, Article 47 continues to apply as well and hence the limitation period never began.


http://scobserver.herokuapp.com/court-case/ayodhya-title-dispute/ayodhya-day-22-arguments

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Supratik » 10 Nov 2019 21:01

Kashi and Mathura temples are fundamental to Indian civilization. The Mathura temple specially as it is the birthplace of Krishna the greatest icon of Hinduism globally. It is going to happen. No need to panic. If simple SC judgement on as simple as Shahbano can be overturned so can this be. But you need some breathing time. I am sure Sekhar Gupta is not the high priest of Indian civilization and he is not going to decide anything.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 10 Nov 2019 21:16

not saying it won't happen but it will be harder than anticipated in the immediate aftermath of the RJB verdict, both in terms of legislative effort required and the amount of public support needed. might take an equally arduous and long drawn out movement as RJB needed. but we will bash on regardless !

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby fanne » 10 Nov 2019 21:17

I guess all 23,000 temples should be liberated. In a small town that I come from, most of the towns in west have Islamic names, on the east has Vedic names. Our small town is where the peaceful army was defeated/stopped (there are shrines some 2 km west of two of these generals (and no memory of any hero from the Indic side). There stands a temple, you cannot miss it being a temple even if you are blind, it is still the tallest structure (the temple is said to be 500 years at least old) in the town...technology has marched, people have become rich...and built 4-5 stories tall building (my guess would be temple is anyway 50 feet to 100 feet tall..only a guess).
It is in dispute and no one has prayed it in 100 years (I guess 1 day is allowed to do something). I remember many of my ancestors have fought and given life as have other people in the community. Yup that time we couldn't win, but why now? Why not this temple. What is wrong with me or my ancestors sacrifice?

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 10 Nov 2019 21:22

There is no question of stopping at 1. It will be similar to someone throwing their left over food, which we paid for. I remember TV debates, hindu groups always said KMA. BTW, ayodhya is most difficult to prove and win as existence of hindu structure had to be established first, not the case with other two. Also as Fanne sir says, so many people would have given lives for so many such temples to just be happy with one.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Supratik » 10 Nov 2019 21:27

These things are going to happen slowly but steadily as we are still weak while Hinduphobes or anti-Hindu power centers are still strong. Cannot be done suddenly.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 10 Nov 2019 21:37

Agreed, but the fight has to be on.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Supratik » 10 Nov 2019 21:48

The SC RJB verdict is a game changer as it establishes the principles of restitution as legal and constitutional provided done lawfully. The left and their international backers apart from basically lying on our civilizational history had propounded the theory that restitution was untenable, illegal and unlawful. This judgment has totally destroyed their very basis. Now IMO it is even possible to just pass legislation in parliament to restitute citing this judgement as a precedent.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 10 Nov 2019 22:31

There are quite a few interesting stories about how institutes like IIT's are helping law/order facilities. There is much more cooperation in Modi era..

Here is one story - About drones, balloons, High definition cameras, AI and software to help police to keep law and order.
Ayodhya verdict: IIT Kanpur lending ‘ears and eyes’ to UP police vigilance

(Post verdict .. social media watch, fake news, rumors etc (by volunteers / AI ) in real time/quick response etc.. has been a big help)

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ritesh » 10 Nov 2019 22:45

Cybaru wrote:
ritesh wrote:Actually speaking extremely disappointed by this award... This is what afflicts hindus due to centuries of oppression by moslems and euorpean maruders.

How is that we cannot even celebrate this epoch making victory is just mindbogling.

This thinking of what will others say needs to be rooted out of our thinking.

P.S: Did Spain showed such consideration when reconverting mosques into churches? Did French think what would mideast think while banning burqa? Who are we deceiving by doing these things?

Missed, hence adding...
SuSwamy says there are enough mosques in Ram nagari but no one visits them as not enough population of moslems to support it. So question is why one more to the list?


Whoa! If you are unhappy - be so! I don't really care! Don't tell me what my thinking needs to be...

I am pretty pleased with the decision. Every party gets +ve outcome and that's the way civilized society should be. Trying to devolve into past and holding onto 2000 year old grudges doesn't let anyone more forward and do great things. We got what we want.. Move on.. be thankful it is positive and a step forward for everyone. Take your hatred elsewhere.
My only humble submission is why bend over backwards to please moslems?

In four wars to pakis, thanks to gods grace and bravery valour of indian soliders we won. What if other way round would have happened? (obviously not wanting it to ever happen)
Hint read up Pritiviraj and Ghori... Exactly same could happen to us, and i am not joking. Look at the plight of kasmiri hindus? Hence my disappointment.

There is no mercy in their vocabulary and thought process... So why us?

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 10 Nov 2019 23:06

Rahul M wrote:the 1991 act is strange, it contains a specific exception to RJB but otherwise seeks to maintain the status quo of places of worship as existed on 15th August 1947. this can't be changed without significant public & legislative effort.

The Places of Worship (Special Provisions) Act, 1991

https://indiacode.nic.in/handle/1234567 ... 56789/1362

It’s an act of parliament still. Not a constitutional amendment . The legislature is vested with the power to modify or remove existing laws as required . SC can at most respond by asking them to frame an alternate law in its place for common law continuity .

The judiciary has the power to determine whether a law is constitutional or not . It doesn’t have the power to prevent an existing non-amendment law from being modified or replaced. However it would be a political live wire and I assume the Modi/Shah team have better ideas .

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 10 Nov 2019 23:20

Rahul M wrote:not saying it won't happen but it will be harder than anticipated in the immediate aftermath of the RJB verdict, both in terms of legislative effort required and the amount of public support needed. might take an equally arduous and long drawn out movement as RJB needed. but we will bash on regardless !


Will be a clash between the Overton window vs the inertia/ Dhimmi attitude of most Yindoos who will whine about "why do we need this, K resides in the heart onlee" stuff.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 10 Nov 2019 23:38

Karan M wrote:
Rahul M wrote:not saying it won't happen but it will be harder than anticipated in the immediate aftermath of the RJB verdict, both in terms of legislative effort required and the amount of public support needed. might take an equally arduous and long drawn out movement as RJB needed. but we will bash on regardless !


Will be a clash between the Overton window vs the inertia/ Dhimmi attitude of most Yindoos who will whine about "why do we need this, K resides in the heart onlee" stuff.


but at least no court cases, and no ASI, shady and lying lefty archeological experts and eminent historians will be able to poke their unwanted noses.

the evidence is unmistakable and clearly visible to the naked and even untrained eye.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 10 Nov 2019 23:56

Quoting Rahul:
this can't be changed without significant public & legislative effort.

True. The Gavel of Justice?

JUST KIDDING!!! :eek: :shock:

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 11 Nov 2019 00:09

ramana wrote:
SriKumar wrote:I think the thread should be kept alive for a few more weeks/months to deal with the aftermath of the landmark legal verdict. Here is a pdf of the judgement (downloadable)

Da Uninanimous Judgement on Ayodhya Case

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... /JUD_2.pdf

Also there is a timebound activity of identifying land and some trust formation. The judgement, the trust formation and unfolding of land allocation activities are quintessential BRF-type fodder that can get discussed, analyzed and just as importantly their repercussions in society (social media- twitter reactions from the usual suspects) can get recorded here. These are all precedent-setting ativities worth discussing. I dont see a point in creating a new thread for it.


Ideally we should close the thread as the verdict has been reached and the active members had a chance to express their views. Any post verdict discussion should be in follow on thread.

So after I close this thread please start a new one or you can start one right now.

Put link to the verdict and a brief scope of discussion.

Thanks,

ramana


OK. Perhaps I am undeserving of the honor of starting a new thread on this particular topic. people like pankajs have contributed a lot more to it that I have. (This thread itself was started by shiv in 2010).

Time now is 6:15 pm Universal Time. I'll give 3 hours time to poster pankajs (or any other dikgaj who's contributed to the understanding of the unfolding of RJB saga). If no one starts it, I'll do it at 9:15 p.m. Universal Time

OT but since we are on the topic of closing/opening threads, Ulanbatori has made a post in the Levant thread asking for the versions I and II of the Levant thread. He wants to write a history and those threads are not in some obvious place, perhaps?
Last edited by SriKumar on 11 Nov 2019 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Nov 2019 00:12

Supratik wrote:Kashi and Mathura temples are fundamental to Indian civilization. The Mathura temple specially as it is the birthplace of Krishna the greatest icon of Hinduism globally. It is going to happen. No need to panic. If simple SC judgement on as simple as Shahbano can be overturned so can this be. But you need some breathing time. I am sure Sekhar Gupta is not the high priest of Indian civilization and he is not going to decide anything.

Agreed. Amending the law is not impossible when you have a majority in the Parliament. Quite importantly, I don't see why bjp can't start another aandolan for the other 2 sites? Makes for great election promises.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 11 Nov 2019 00:14

Rahul M wrote:not saying it won't happen but it will be harder than anticipated in the immediate aftermath of the RJB verdict, both in terms of legislative effort required and the amount of public support needed. might take an equally arduous and long drawn out movement as RJB needed. but we will bash on regardless !

They won't do it in the immediate aftermath of rjb Rahul. They'll bode their time until things are more conducive. Look for Kashi + Mathura around the next election campaign. That's my guess anyway.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby SriKumar » 11 Nov 2019 00:29

KL Dubey wrote:Jai Shri Ram! A great victory. Three important things:

-The court has to appear impartial, but in dispassionate language the verdict has basically reaffirmed the fact of a common occurrence in medieval India: vandalism/razing of temples and using their foundations (and even the structural elements) to build squatter structures.

- The court has been rather too generous in rewarding vandalism by granting land (albeit elsewhere). It is strange that the SC raps the 1949-1992 RJB movement on the knuckles but has nothing to say regarding the original vandalism of the temple by marauders and barbarians.

- As I have been saying for years, the fundamental difference of Hindooism from others is that the deity of each temple is a personification with their own individual identity, characteristics, and powers. The Ram existing in your home mandir is not the same guy as Ram Lalla of Ayodhya, though you can associate both with the same Lawd Ram. The SC has thoroughly affirmed this, as evident from treating Ram Lalla (and not any other deity) as a litigant in the case. In other words, you can relocate other structures elsewhere, but not the home of a deity. There is no limitation on the status of Kashi and Mathura created by this judgement. We really should stop defending ourselves as another "god-is-one" religion.

Yo yo yo mah homie...where you been? :D Lawd Ram has his home back now. Praise the Lawd. (I was wondering how come you had not come by to the party.)

A comment (at large) about Mathura and Kashi-
in my very, very limited knowledge of the matter, Mathura and Kashi was always on the table. I recall seeing a NatGeo (or Discovery show) 15+ years ago where some western reporter was interviewing a sadhu-looking person. Totally non-descript guy...definitely not a leader of any organization. I think they interviewed him only because in that group of sadhus only he spoke some English. He said: we want three (Ram, Kashi and Mathura). If we dont get, we will stake a claim to all. The claim over Mathura and Kashi is much more clear since the temples are still standing and people go there to worship (I've not been there but I've spoken with those who went). There is no need for a certificate from the ASI.

If anyone needs proof of Hindu tolerance to religious violence against Hindus, and the fact that Hindus still make a sincere effort at resolving the matter peacefully with negotiations in spite of clear evidence of force, one only has to look at these two temples where mosque sit on top of temples (Mathura). In Kashi I understand the temple entrance is to one side and the mosque is prominently located at the center after demolishing part of the Shiva temple. No other proof is needed.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Ankit Desai » 11 Nov 2019 01:01

Kashi and Mathura will be next, it will just matter of time. They will wait for dust to settle.

The very negotiation was broke down because of the demand that Muslim parties' were ready to give Ayodhya on condition to let Kashi & Mathura go but Hindu parties' wanted Ayodhya issue be treated in isolation.

Even Swammy said on many occasion that Kashi & Mathura will be next. He thinks it will be easy than Ayodhya since orders of Aurangzeb to demolish those two still exist and could be good evidence in court.

-Ankit

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby SandeepA » 11 Nov 2019 01:14

The reason RJB took only 29 years to resolve is because there was no Mosque demolition job to do. Just facts and evidences. Mathura and Kashi have functioning mosques, a world of difference. Lets not kid ourselves thinking they will be cakewalks now.
But yes we must bash on regardless.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Ardeshir » 11 Nov 2019 01:30

What a momentous occasion! And here's hoping Kashi and Mathura will be taken care of in our lifetime. :)

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Nov 2019 01:42

IMO the 5 acres buys the right to make a flat suggestion:
Kashi and Mahtura are key parts to our heritage.
Vacate temple land amicably.
Publishing pictures of the situations in these two places wordlwide, would create a picture of a certain belief system, that leaves no room for doubt. Similar pictures exist in several nations, but none as gross. A movement might grow into a worldwide movement.
Failure to be amicable on this central point leaves no room for doubt about good faith.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 11 Nov 2019 01:59

Cain Marko wrote:
Rahul M wrote:not saying it won't happen but it will be harder than anticipated in the immediate aftermath of the RJB verdict, both in terms of legislative effort required and the amount of public support needed. might take an equally arduous and long drawn out movement as RJB needed. but we will bash on regardless !

They won't do it in the immediate aftermath of rjb Rahul. They'll bode their time until things are more conducive. Look for Kashi + Mathura around the next election campaign. That's my guess anyway.

You misunderstood me CM. In the aftermath of the RJB verdict it was opined that this precedent made it easier for similar cases. Obviously no new front should be opened till the gains of this one have been consolidated.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 11 Nov 2019 02:20

https://twitter.com/jsaideepak/status/1 ... 0421732352
Sai Deepak J @jsaideepak

True,but still a lot many Dharmic holy sites left to be reclaimed.Ram Mandir should inspire us to pursue that goal & not get complacent.The effect of d observations made in d #Ramjanmabhoomi verdict on d Places of Worship Act 1991 must b understood & we must prepare accordingly.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby IndraD » 11 Nov 2019 02:20

रामलला की असल तस्वीर खींचने की इजाज़त नहीं है.वो बाल स्वरूप में हैं.SC ने रामलला को ही न्यायिक व्यक्ति मानते हुये उन्हें ज़मीन का मालिकाना हक़ दिया.
जब कोर्ट का फ़ैसला आया तो रामलला विश्राम कर रहे थे, मुख्य पुजारी ने कहा कि रामलला को जगाकर मैंने उन्हें बताया कोर्ट का फ़ैसला..

https://twitter.com/chitraaum/status/11 ... 23552?s=20



Ramlala's photo can't be taken as he resides as child Ram at birthplace in Ayodhya, SC accepting Ramlala as a real person awarded ownership of 2.7 acres land to Him.
When court's verdict came, He was fast asleep, chief priest woke Him up to apprise of verdict !!

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby IndraD » 11 Nov 2019 02:38

Image
No wonder Hindi vernaculars have fingers on pulse of the nation !


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