The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

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Prasad
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

X-posted from GD thread along with related posts from other members

Something regarding the oft-repeated question - "Why didn't Tulsidas speak about the Masjid in Ramcharitmanas?"

I haven't read further, so I don't know how the H'ble court has considered this witness. But here it is -

Hon'ble Sudhir Agarwal, J

Vol 4
http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... vol-04.pdf

Page 783-785 (34-36/251)
OPW 16 Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Swami Rambhadracharya
“21. Description of Ayodhya being the birthplace of Raghavendra Lord Sri Rama and the disputed site being Sri Rama's birthplace, is found in Valmiki Ramayana, Atharvaveda, Yajurveda, Ramtapniyayopanishad, Skandapurana and Tulsidas's literature. Goswami Tulsidas, in his 'Sri Tulsishatak' has clearly described the deeds of Muslims and Babur and the mosque having been built by Mir Baqi after demolishing Sri Ram Janam Mandir at Ayodhya, which runs as follows:

Goswami Tulsidas Ji says that ‘Yavans’ (barbarians /Mohammedans) ridicule hymns, several Upnishads and treatises like Brahmans, Puranas, Itihas (histories) etc. and also the Hindu society (orthodox religion) having faith in them. They exploit the Hindu society in different ways.

Goswami Tulsi Das says that forcible attempts are being made by Muslims to expel the followers of Hinduism from their own native place (country), forcibly divesting them of their Shikha (lock of hair on the crown of head) and ‘Yagyopaveet’ (sacrificial thread) and causing them to deviate from their religion. Tulsi Das terms this time as a hard and harrowing one.

Describing the barbaric attack of Babur, Goswami Ji says that he indulged in gruesome genocide of the natives of that place (followers of Hinduism), using sword (army).

Gowami Tulsi Das Ji says that countless atrocities were committed by foolish ‘Yavans’ (Mohammedans) in Awadh (Ayodhya) in and around the summer of Samvat 1585, that is, 1528 AD (Samvat 1585- 57=1528 AD). Describing the attack made by ‘Yavans’, that is, Mohammedans on Sri Ramjanambhumi temple, Tulsi Das Ji says that after a number of Hindus had been mercilessly killed, Sri Ram Janam Bhumi temple was broken to make it a mosque. Looking at the ruthless killing of Hindus, Tulsi Ji says that his heart felt aggrieved, that is, it began to weep, and on account of incident it continues to writhe in pain. Seeing the mosque constructed by Mir Baqi in Awadh, that is, Ayodhya in the wake of demolition of Sri 785 Ram Janam Bhumi temple preceded by the grisly killing of followers of Hinduism having faith in Rama and also seeing the bad plight of the temple of his favoured deity Rama, the heart of Tulsi began to always cry tearfully for Raghuraj (the most revered among the scions of the Raghu Dynasty).

Being aggrieved thereby, submitting himself to the will of Sri Rama, he shouted: O Ram ! Save....Save... Tulsi Das Ji says that the mosque was constructed by the wicked Mir Baqi after demolishing Sri Ram Janam Bhumi temple, situated in the middle of Awadh, that is, Ayodhya. Tulsi Das Ji says that the Quran as well as Ajaan call is heard from the holy place of Sri Ram Janam Bhumi, where discourses from Shrutis, Vedas, Puranas, Upnishads etc. used to be always heard and which used to be constantly everberated with sweet sound of bells.”
I tried google but haven't been able to locate anything on Tulsishatak. Also, could someone please let me know how to copy-paste the hindi/sanskrit part of the pdf to BR? The lines in Sanskrit are beautiful (though sad) and deserve to be read as is, by those who can read.

To add, Page 787 (38/251)
“24. The religious books specially Ramtapniopanishad, Veda-Vedangas contain description of all four forms of God lmighty viz. (1) Name, (2) Form, (3) Leela (actions) and (4) Dham (abode), besides the method of offering prayer. The word ham implies Janmbhumi (birthplace), as is clear from the following Shloka-

"Dharm Sthane Prakashe Cha Janmbhumau Tathaiva Cha.
Kirane Chaiv Vigyeyam Tatha Chandanrashmino." (E.T.C.)

Accordingly it is clear that the Sri Ramjanmbhumi is worshipable alike favoured deity and since time immemorial, the Hindu evotees have been continuously revering the said place as the centre of their faith.”
Arjun wrote: That's strange...why do we have this factual disparity between judgements of Sudhir Agarwal and SU Khan? This should not be a matter of interpretation. SU Khan in his judgement specifically states that Tulsidas had never talked about the RJB/masjid.
Sumeet wrote: Not about Ram Mandir in Ayodhya specifically but can we get Babarvani section of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, where Guru Nanak has described Babar's atrocities:

http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/babar.html
Mauli wrote: Tulsi Doha Shatak may be doubted by some, specially the eminent distorians. But Kavitavali is beyond any doubt as far as its authorship is concerned.
धूत कहौ, अवधूत कहौ, रजपूतु कहौ, जोलहा कहौ कोऊ।
Dhoot Kahaun, Avadhoot Kahaun, Rajpoot Kahaun, Jolha Kahaun Kou
काहूकी बेटीसों बेटा न ब्याहब, काहूकी जाति बिगार न सोऊ॥
Kahu Ki Beti Se Beta Na Byahab, Kahu Ki Jati Bigaran Sou.
तुलसी सरनाम गुलामु है रामको, जाको रुचै सो कहै कछु ओऊ।
Tulsi Sar Naam Gulamu Hai Ram Ko, Jako Ruche So kahe Kachhu Jou.
माँगि कै खैबौ, मसीतको सोइबो, लैबोको एकु न दैबेको दोऊ॥
Mangi Ke Khaibon, Maseet Me Soibo, Laive Ko Eku Na Deve Ke Dou."

http://wikisource.org/wiki/%E0%A4%95%E0 ... E0%A5%80_4
So while in Ayodhya Sri Tulsidas use to sleep in the Newly constructed mosque given the sanctity of the place.
Another thing i very often hear from Muslims and loony left is that why Tulsidas didn't mention about mosque in Sri Ramcharitmanas(his Ramayana Katha, not story)?. Well, he was not writing a contemporary account but Katha of Sri Ram who incarnated 20 Kalpas before not even the Ram of gone by Treta Yuga. But when it comes to his other works he did mentioned as shown above. He did talk about the poor state and deterioration of society, for example in Vinay Patrika and Kavitavali, but he attributes it to the god of "Kaliyuga". In his experience gift of Islam to India was from Kaliyuga, the same one who tricked Parikshit and got him cursed.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

chaanakya wrote:
3597. We have given just in brief some of the principles, well settled, which may guide a Court while considering opinion of an expert. We have to weigh the experts' opinion made available to us in the matter in dispute though in two directions and will try to find out the most creditworthy and reliable opinion. In the light of the above, we proceed to consider the opinion of the experts, who have made their deposition as historians. On behalf of the pro-mosque parties i.e. Muslims, PW 13-Dr. Suresh Chandra Mishra, PW-15 Dr. Sushil Srivastava, PW-18 Prof. Suvira Jaiswal, PW 20 Prof.
have been examined as Experts (Historians); PW 16-Prof. Suraj Bhan, PW 24 Prof. D Mandal, PW-27 Prof. Shereen F. Ratnagar, PW-28 Dr. Sita Ram Roy, PW 29 Dr. Jaya Menon, PW 30 Prof. R.C. Thakran, PW 31 Dr. Ashok Dutta, PW 32 Dr. Supriya Varma and DW 6/1-2 Mohd. Abid have been examined as Experts (Archaeologists]). O
Okay these historians and pseudo seculars must think people do not have googling skills or cannot connect two dots. Seriously what do they take the aam admis for? Now let us look at the 60+ academics/historians who signed the SAHMAT statement. I have highlighted these folks in red above. Several of them who gave evidence against the existence of a temple are part of the list of signers of the Sahmat.
1) Suvira Jaiswal
2) Shireen Moosvi
3) D. Mandal
4) Jaya Menon
5) Supriya Verma
5) R.C.Thakran.
6) Sitaram Roy.
http://www.sahmatnews.blogspot.com/

I am making an excel list of these "eminent" people; so far I have found a cluster of JNU and AMU professors/readers.
Last edited by SwamyG on 07 Oct 2010 04:50, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Voltaire, the very jewel of Enlightenment in Europe said of someone "I disagree with what he says but will defend his right to say it!" Does this apply to lies?

The eminent historians were guilty of "lapsis calmi, suggesto falsi" (Slip of the tongue, false suggestions) for what purpose we don't know but how are they qualifed to continue to be given honor and status when they lie so openly and give false witness? Are they so driven by ideology to give false statements in court of law?

What is their rebuttal? Or they hope no one will read the many pages of the judgment?

And being witnesses to one side of the case, how can their statements on the judgment have any validity? Are they not already under confict of interest?
Amber G.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Hi when I read the following attributed from Kavitavali:
तुलसी सरनाम गुलामु है रामको, जाको रुचै सो कहै कछु ओऊ
something is making me to know more ...
(I am NO Tulsidasji expert, but when I was young (and had much better memory) I read, his Ramcharit Manas quite a few times and could recite - yes people though I had good memory then - quite a bit from from memory - Obviously I have read Tulsiji Kavitavali too but not that thoroughly..) I do not recall that part from Uttarkand (which is normal - as I recall very little from Kavitavali ) , and I do not have Kavitavali available to verify.

My interest was due to word " गुलामु" (and words like " सोइबो" with "b" etc) which sounded a little odd to me coming from Tulasidasji. Because:

1. Though Tulsidasji used common hindi, yet rarely used Persian origin words when Sanskrit origin word was more common... I actually text searched my Ramcharitmanas, and could not find a single use of word "गुलामु" (words like "chakar" would be more common).. This does not say much yet..
2. Google search with two words "तुलसी" + " गुलामु" gets only references to this piece only (and that too mostly recent blog posts etc)... (One can check other words with "तुलसी" brings out thousands of references..

(See yahoo search results here: here

So I have favor to ask - can any one confirm/verify (first hand) that that piece is there. (From a book published more than a few years ago - or reputable site). Thanks in advance. I am asking as I do not have a copy of Kavitavali.

(Disclaimer: I have not looked at all the posts above, so if this information is already been posted, my apology for not reading everything here carefully)

Thanks again.
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Re: Ram Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid verdict 30 Sep 2010

Post by svinayak »

Abhishek wrote: Today we are grappling with our identity and fighting for our right to define our identity, but we need to have a conduct based on our convictions and not based on our opposition.
An ancient country how can it be grappling with identity. Where is the problem. Is the problem with the text books, education and media or the problem is with the people.
Why are you trying to redefine who the Hindus are. Are you comfortable with your identity.
Are you speaking based on how you feel personally or based on what you read on the media.
Last edited by svinayak on 07 Oct 2010 08:27, edited 1 time in total.
A_Gupta
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Re: Ram Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid verdict 30 Sep 2010

Post by A_Gupta »

vera_k wrote:
Sanku wrote:From IF
Yes, Mir Baqi inscription was found, but it is not seen as reliable evidence to prove that a) a mosque existed, and b) Babar built it.
There were two inscriptions on the mosque, one inside and one outside, both of which mention Babur. The interior one is the Mir Baqi inscription.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by RamaY »

SwamyG wrote:I am making an excel list of these "eminent" people; so far I have found a cluster of JNU and AMU professors/readers.
I too am doing that... note how many of them had British education...
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

Amber G. wrote: So I have favor to ask - can any one confirm/verify (first hand) that that piece is there. (From a book published more than a few years ago - or reputable site). Thanks in advance. I am asking as I do not have a copy of Kavitavali.
1.The Wiki page has referenced on the earlier page
http://wikisource.org/wiki/%E0%A4%95%E0 ... E0%A5%80_4

has "गुलामु" on verses 100, 114, 117.

2. The New Digital Library of India has Kavitavali, from Lala Bhagavandeen "Deen" and Vishvanathprasad Mishra, Adhyaksha, Hindi Vibhag, Magadh Vishvavidyalaya, Gaya, Bihar from Samvat 2002.

The numbering of the Wiki version is off compared to this text. But e.g, verse 114 in Wiki corresponds to 100 in the book. "Ghulam" appears there. (Wiki has

११४ सुनिए कराल कलिकाल भूमिपाल! तुम्ह, जाहि घालो चाहिए, कहौ धौं राखै ताहि को।
हौ तौ दीन दूबरो, बिगारो-ढारी रावरो न, मैंहू तैंहू ताहिको, सकल जगु जाहिको॥
काम, कोहू लाइ कै देखाइयत आँखि मोहि, एते मान अकसु कीबेको आपु आहि को॥
साहेबु सुजान, जिन्ह स्वानहूँ को पच्छु कियो, रामबोला नामु, हौं गुलामु रामसाहिको॥ )

Imagekavitavali00000230 by macgupta, on Flickr
Last edited by A_Gupta on 07 Oct 2010 06:39, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

Wiki

११७ धूत कहौ, अवधूत कहौ, रजपूतु कहौ, जोलहा कहौ कोऊ।
काहूकी बेटीसों बेटा न ब्याहब, काहूकी जाति बिगार न सोऊ॥
तुलसी सरनाम गुलामु है रामको, जाको रुचै सो कहै कछु ओऊ।
माँगि कै खैबौ, मसीतको सोइबो, लैबोको एकु न दैबेको दोऊ॥

Imagekavitavali00000233
by macgupta, on Flickr
A_Gupta
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

For completeness sake, here is the reference and date:

Imagekavitavali00000002 by macgupta, on Flickr

Imagekavitavali00000004 by macgupta, on Flickr
Amber G.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

A_Gupta et al - THANKS. ( By this time - I also have found the answer to my own questions - thanks to google books and IIT's digital libraries - eg Tulsi- Kavya- Mimansa by uday bhanu singh - google books)


Nice find was:

Viśva kā prathama mānava-mūlya-paraka ś ... viśvakośa
(5 Volumes - of sabdavali - Encylopedia nicely indexed!) very good resource.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

X-post from GD thread -
Man, the judge picks Sri Suresh Chandra Mishra apart like anything -

Please note - All Bold faces are from the judgement. All blue highlights are mine.

Hon'ble Sudhir Agarwal, J.
Vol 6,
http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... vol-06.pdf

Page 1468 (219/251)
1338. P.W.13 Sri Suresh Chandra Mishra in his cross examination has said:
“At the time when I visited the site, I considered only these records, viz., inscriptions to be important. But they were in Arabic language. As that is an additional and credible information, I am telling it now. I did not make mention of these things in the symbols and objects earlier stated to be important.”

These records were in Arabic and I do not know Arabic language. It is not that I am a habitual liar. I on 14.07.98 gave my statement in this court. In the statement I had caused it to be recorded that 'the inscription which was there, was written in Persian language but I had been in the know of that from earlier'. My today's statement is correct that the record was written in the Arabic language. Actually it was a record, not an inscription. My earlier statement to the effect that it was written in Persian language, was incorrect. It may be due to mistake in understanding it, because I know neither the Persian language nor the Arabic language. I do not know Latin either.” (E.T.C.)

"I have read a journal 'Epigraphica Indica' in regard to inscription...... One of its editions makes mention of an inscription and contains an article which makes mention of inscriptions with 14 lines inside the Babri mosque. It makes mention of three pillar inscription. Yesterday I gave a statement in this very court that there was just one pillar inscription there. Actually, that statement of mine was due to slip of tongue and under the impression that there should not be any mention of any new fake inscription.”

1339. The witness has claimed himself to be an Expert Historian...also claimed that he may be placed in the category of Expert in “Epigraphy”. His statement on page 54...Babar was his favourite subject However, he admits that he did not find any reference of construction of the disputed building/Babari mosque in Baburnama..contains no reference of Mir Baqi. On the one hand he accepts of being expert in Epigraphy (page 111) but simultaneously he admits that neither he knows Arabic nor Persian nor Latin, therefore, he had no occasion to understand the language in which the alleged inscription was written...he claims that the inscriptions were written in Persian but later on page 72 he retracted and said that the inscriptions were written in Arabic and his earlier statement was wrong for the reason that neither he understand Persian nor Arabic
.
.
.
The slipshod and casual manner in which he made inquiry about inscriptions is further interesting. On page 79 he says that he carried inside the disputed building, the book “Baburnama by Beveridge” and therefrom compared the script of the inscriptions with the text quoted in the said book and since the matter relate to 1989/1990 he is not able to tell the correct date but thereafter on page 79/80 he admits that for security reasons his entire belongings were made to be left outside the premises and he went inside the disputed building empty handed. The book was also left outside where police checking was going. On page 80 when his statement about comparison of the text of the inscription with the book was further examined he says that he kept the text after reading the book in his mind and compared it with the inscription. This wonderful memory of the witness has to be seen in the light of the fact that the witness admits that he knows neither Persian nor Arabic. On page 79 he also admits that he also do not know Urdu language.

1341. Further, he claims to have read “Baburnama by Beveridge” but on page 197 could not tell whether the names Baqi Shaghawal and Baqi Tashkandi are mentioned therein ornot. His lack of knowledge in this matter is writ large from the fact that Mrs. Beveridge has suggested that it is probably Baqi Tashkandi whose name was mentioned in the inscription as Mir Baqi but PW 13 on page 197 says that even if the names of Baqi Tashkandi and Baqi Shaghawal have been mentioned in Baburnama that cannot be connected with the army chief Mir Baqi.


1344. ...Dr. S.C. Misra (PW 13) did his Ph.D. under Prof. D.N. Jha (page 49) and claims to be closely acquainted with him On page 53, he says that he has also studied the “History of India” written by “Romila Thaper” and has also consulted her in the course of so called deep study on the dispute in question and believed whatever she has written is correct. On the one hand he claims to be a man of scientific temperament and in order to believe anything he looks into the matter and several things, analyse them and only then come to aconcrete finding (page 49) but on page 56 he says that on the basis of general conception among majority of people and also because of acceptance on the part of scholars he accepted that Islam emerged through revelation.On page 57 he admits that neither he know what “revelation” means nor has read the process of such revelation and, therefore, he is wholly ignorance of the term "revelation" and its meaning.

1347. The defendants sought to highlight the fact that PW 13 was a paid witness and made certain questions about the manner in which he comes from Delhi. On page 185 he said:
....I never came by air but on my way back from Lucknow to Delhi I went by air two times. Even today I want to go back by aeroplane. ...

1348. However, later on he retracted and made a different statement on page 201 as under:
" I travel by rail and get my seat reserved while making to and fro journey. I travel in second class A.C., to which I am entitled. It is true that I told the court last time that I had gone back to Delhi by aeroplane two times.”

1349. His statement fails to inspire confidence and lack independent, fair and impartial opinion.
So tempted to quote the whole statement from the judgement :)
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

xpost from GD thread.

OK. Total ripping apart of another witness -

Hon'ble Sudhir Agarwal, J
Vol 6, Page 1487 (238/251)
http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... vol-06.pdf

Witness - Sushil Srivastava
Neither I can read nor write Persian. I can also not read Arabic Language nor can write it. I have no sound knowledge of Sanskrit also." (E.T.C.)

“It is correct that my father-in-law helped me a lot in reading and writing, i.e., in interpreting the Persian language, which neither I can read nor write,..father-in-law is a scholar of Arabic and Persian languages..father in law felt that the translation of articles on disputed site made by Bevarage is not wholly correct...can not say whether out of three inscriptions one was in Persian and two were in Arabic, as I had no knowledge of these two language..In my book I have written about the three inscriptions after getting the same translated in English. For English transcription I have requested my father-inlaw and got it done from him....he know Arabic and Persian...style of Calligraphy on inscriptions creates doubt whether this mosque was constructed by Babar or not...basis of the aforesaid fact is that my father-in-law realized so. I have written this fact in my book.”

"I have not the least knowledge of art or science of calligraphy...true that, in the foot note of my book, I have mentioned those books too which I have not read...true that I have a very little knowledge of history.

Vol 7, Page 1511 (12/251)
1352. Learned counsel for the defendants have stressed upon the motive of this witness certain facts antecedents to the publication of his book
“The name of my wife is Mehar Afshan Farooqui. My marriage has been solemnized as civil marriage, i.e., under Special Marriage Act. When I adopted Islam religion, at that time, I was given a new name Sajid. Presently, I am neither a Hindu nor a Muslim..I married according to Islamic rites."

My wife encouraged me for this work." (E.T.C.)“ In the Preface of my book I have written that Mehar Afshan Farooqi started persuading me to popularize the historical truth." 1354. They also pointed out that the wife of PW 15 is well qualified being M.A. in Medieval History and D.Phil. with specialisation in “Economic Policy of Delhi Sultanate” which she did in 1988 but her father was not a Historian..

1357. ..Though the witness has been produced as Expert Historian but on page 222 he admits that he had a very little knowledge of history. That being so according to own statement of the witness his statement cannot be taken as an opinion of an Expert Historian and, therefore, inadmissible under Section 45 of the Evidence Act...We in fact find it surprising with the kind of dishonesty, such person has shown..

1357.<snip>On page 106 on the one hand he admits that he lacks knowledge of Epigraphy, Numismatic, Archeology, Survey of Land, Science of Architecture, Turkish, Arabic and Persian language yet simultaneously he says that though the period of construction of the disputed structure, he could not conclude but according to him it relates prior to Mughal period. We are sorry to find that a person like PW 15 has written a book on such an important and sensitive matter without having made an in-depth study on the subject and hasdeposed before us claiming himself to be an Expert Historian though simultaneously admit that he has a very little knowledge of history.

On page 218 and 219 again contradicting his earlier statement he said that he has made research on the question as to how much old and of which period the inscriptions are and found that the inner inscription appears to be new from the style of calligraphy while the outer one is old. Despite admitting the fact that he has no knowledge of calligraphy he has made such comments on calligraphy of the text of inscription which is not expected from a responsible Expert Historian.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

Any comments about this:
http://books.google.com/books?id=bUpLAA ... hi&f=false

This is an 1895 article "Stone and Brick in Ancient Times in India" (STONE, An Illustrated Magazine, Volume X1, June to November 1895, page 444, books.google.com) which in particular notes that post-Muhammadan structures use lime-surkhi and are prone to the peepul, while pre-Muhammadan structures which have stood for much longer have little peepul damage. It says
"In pre-Muhammad buildings, whether of brick or of stone, there is no lime mortar - not that lime or its uses were unknown, for there is abundant evidence that lime was known and used; but it was used in the form of a fine smooth outer coat and for decorative purposes. For the fine outer coat, the lime appears to have been used without any admixture, but when used in larger masses for decorative purposes, as in sculpture and for ornamental mouldings and alto-relievo figures, it appears to have been used with an admixture of sand rather than of broken brick. It is only rarely that a lime mortar composed of lime and surkhi occurs in a pre-Muhammad building; and, in the very few instances where such has been found, there is at least reasonable ground for suspicion that it is a latear post-Muhammadan addition.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

WOW! Wonder how many more were unmasked and what reception these folks will get on campuses?
A_Gupta
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

On the other hand, Indian Archaeology 1960-61 A Review (for instance) has the report of excavations at Antichak, Bhagalpur district, Bihar. In what appear to be Buddhist structures, various levels of floor were of surkhi. So clearly, surkhi did not arrive with the Musulmans.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Arjun »

Would be good to dig out the names of all the witnesses who have proven to have lied by the court, and try and find out the links of these to the P-Sec /marxist historian cabal...AIT is already one strike against the latter, need more.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Jarita »

^^^
Just found one on twitter

http://pd.cpim.org/2010/0808_pd/08082010_10.html
PROFESSOR SURAJ BHAN



Prof Suraj Bhan, former professor of Ancient History and Archaeology at Kurukshetra University, had passed away at his Rohtak residence on July 14, 2010 evening after a brief illness.
After doing his post-graduation from MS University, Baroda, Suraj Bhan served in the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) where he took part in several important archaeological excavations :( He left ASI to join the department of Ancient History and Archaeology at Punjab University, Chandigarh. In 1966-67, he shifted to Kurukshetra University where he became professor and dean. He retired from Kurukshetra University in 1991. While at Kurukshetra, he spent two years as fellow at the Institute of Advanced Studies, Shimla. For some years, he was on the central advisory board of ASI and twice a member of the governing body of Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR). Throughout, he was associated with the Indian History Congress and for one term was president of its Ancient History & Archaeology section. Man Mohan said that a mere academician would have been quite content to rest on these professional laurels and with justification too, but not Prof Suraj Bhan.

Prof Suraj Bhan, alongwith Prof R S Sharma, D N Jha, Athar Ali and others, fought tooth and nail against these nefarious attempts and upheld the banner of objectivity and scientific interpretation of archaeological evidence. In 1992, after the demolition of Babri Masjid by fascist goons, when attempts were being made to establish that the mosque had been constructed over a razed Ram temple site, Dr Suraj Bhan spent weeks to make a scientific study of the archaeological objects found there and proved through irrefutable research-supported arguments that the objects found belonged to medieval settlements and not to any imaginary Ram temple. He thus took the wind out of the sails of the fundamentalist propaganda. That was not all. Prof Suraj Bhan appeared as an expert witness before the Lucknow bench of High Court in the ongoing case on Babri Masjid dispute and gave a detailed testimony challenging the fundamentalist claims. :D All this was an act of great physical and moral courage, given the aggressive mood and grave threats of the fascist communalists at the time. While in Kurukshetra University, Prof Suraj Bhan came in close contact with late Prof Om Prakash Grewal, renowned Marxist intellectual of Haryana. Thus began his transformation from being a staunch Arya Samajist into a less rigid and more modern, more rational and scientific thinker.
Posted by prasad - from another thread

Hon'ble Sudhir Agarwal, J
http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... Vol-07.pdf

Page 1513 (14/251)
Vol 7

Witness Prof. Suraj Bhan

Quote:
1359. PW 16, Prof. Suraj Bhan in his cross-examination has said: “Except for an inscription carved by Mir Baqi, I did not come across any other epigraphical evidence on the basis of which the disputed site may be called Babri Masjid. This inscription is as old as this masjid.”“Inscriptions were engraved at two places in the disputed structure. Both of the inscriptions were engraved in the stone but the slab of the outside inscription was fixed in the wall. Both these inscriptions were written in Persian language. I do not know Persian. It is true that I can not read Persian. So I, could not read both the inscriptions at the site and could not even see the inside inscription.”

“This mosque not built by Babar on his own; rather, it was built by Mir Baqi with the permission of Babar, and for this very reason, the Babri mosque was built only as per the means of Mir Baqi...It was so written in the stone inscription at the mosque and the same had also been seen by me before demolition of the mosque"

1360. The statement of PW 16 ... is solely based on two inscriptions which he claims to have affixed on the disputed building in Persian language though neither the witness can read Persian nor could see the inner one. ..though the witness claims that the inscriptions which were installed when he visited the premises were the same as were installed at the time of construction of the building..shows that he has not read the text of the inscriptions as published in different books..but the statement has been made on pure conjecture and surmises.
PS: All emphasis in Bold face is from the judgement and all in blue is mine.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

And we just saw how detailed their testimony was in challenge of fundamentalist claims. Anyway, its not good to speak ill of the dead. So lets refrain from any comments about him.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

Some one should make sure that, this (with links etc) becomes part of wiki, and google hits whenever one google these expert worthies.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Yeah stick to the living dead.
Looks like the Marxists whip themselves into fury and go tilting at communal windmills like Don Quixote and issue fire and brimstone at the imagined communal dragons.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

AmberG, Your doubts about Kavitavali are addressed right?
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Jarita »

Prasad wrote:And we just saw how detailed their testimony was in challenge of fundamentalist claims. Anyway, its not good to speak ill of the dead. So lets refrain from any comments about him.

But they are all going to die someday. It is not individuals but the psyche of this ideology.
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Re: Ram Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid verdict 30 Sep 2010

Post by ramana »

Acharya wrote:http://www.docstoc.com/docs/19288715/Ch ... odhyabblal

We can see the actual photo of the temple structure.

ImageImage

That red/ochre paint is similar to what we see on Hanuman idols? man to think it lasted all these years and destruction.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Sanku »

From the other thread -- Chaankyaa's post.

Annexure http://www.rjbm.nic.in/dvs/Final_Judgem ... %20162.pdf

Illustration by Tieffethaler of Possiblt the RBJM destroyed by Baqui

Image

The central place looks like Gupta temple . Indeed it looks more like a Palace. Notice how there are three archs which could have been just below the DOmes
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by saket »

This might be a bit off topic but it seems to me that the attitude of the Ramjanmabhoomi denier psecularists mirrors that of the pakistanis. No matter what the wealth of evidence you provide, the pakistanis will keep denying their role in terrorism, and the psecularists will keep claiming there was no temple under the babri structure.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

X-posted from GD
Next Witness PW 15, Sushil Srivastava,, on behalf of muslim parties
J. Sudhir Aggrawal
Vol 15

Page 3061- (102/251) para 3603
http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... ol-15.pdfA


3603. About PW 15, Sushil Srivastava, we have already dealt in detail while considering the issues about the date of construction of the disputed building. The aforesaid witness has given a new theory that the building in dispute was constructed much earlier from the period when Babar came to India and must have been constructed before commencement of Mughal period. It is clearly against the pleadings of Muslim parties on whose behalf he has appeared as an expert witness. He also admits of teaching "Modern History" and on page 220, he admits that he has a very little nowledge of History. He, however, admits that there was a possibility of an earlier structure at the place where the disputed building was constructed:

“At page 113 of my book, I have written that this probability cannot be ruled out, i.e, cannot be completely ruled out, i.e, no other ancient construction would have existed at the place of Babri mosque......This conclusion of mine is based on Cunningham's report." (ETC)

“It is true that stones were found in the mound below the Babri mosque. The size of the stones in this mound was
very big, i.e. very large stones were present.” (ETC)

“Q. You have just stated above that in the mound below the Babri mosque large stones were present, did you mean by “long size bricks” or “long size stones?” “Ans. I mean by long size bricks.” (ETC)

3604. He has written a book "An Inquiry on the Disputed Mosque". On page 87 thereof, he has written that in 17th
century, the people started claiming that the building in dispute was constructed by Babar after demolishing a temple but on page 256 of his cross examination, he said that the 17th century mentioned on page 87 of his own Book is wrong and it ought to be 19th century:

“At page 87 of this book, 17 century is written, which is wrong. In fact, it should be 19th century. Further said that the supposition that Babar had got constructed the mosque after demolishing the temple, commenced in the first half of 19th
century. By first half of 19th century, I mean the period between 1801 to 1850. The amalgamation of Avadh Province in East India Company took place on13th Feburary 1856. i.e. since the British rule." (ETC)

3605. He has further said:“To my knowledge, prior to 1526, except Syed Salar Masoodi and Ibne Batuta, no any other foreign Muslim Traveller had come to Ayodhya." (ETC)

“means that it cannot be wholly ignored that where Babri mosque situated, earlier, there had been any old structure or ancient construction." (ETC)

“This Babari mosque had not been in possession of Muslims during 1853 to 1855.” (ETC)

3606. All the Muslims parties have denied of any riot or dispute among the two communities in 1855 but this witness gave a different stand and admitted such a clash:
After 1855, no clash took place at the disputed place between Hindus and Muslims." (ETC)
3607. Moreover, the expertise and authority of PW 15 has been challenged by PW 20, Prof. Shirin Musavi in her statement at page 129 observing that Shshil Srivastava is a Modern Historian and not an authority on Medieval History.
Here we have a witness who teaches Modern History and appears before the court for giving expert opinion on Medieval History. His statement goes against the pleadings of the party on whose behalf he was appearing. HC has rightly not placed reliance on his opinion.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

saket wrote:This might be a bit off topic but it seems to me that the attitude of the Ramjanmabhoomi denier psecularists mirrors that of the pakistanis. No matter what the wealth of evidence you provide, the pakistanis will keep denying their role in terrorism, and the psecularists will keep claiming there was no temple under the babri structure.
There is a reason for it/
P Secs are fearing that Traditions and religion is coming back and they will not have any voice. They thrive on problems, fear, social divide. Even if they are seen as anti national - it is OK since they feel they are right and rational.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

x-posted from the GD thread.
Another.

Hon'ble Sudhir Agarwal, J
http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... Vol-07.pdf

Page 1513 (14/251)
Vol 7

Witness Prof. Suraj Bhan
1359. PW 16, Prof. Suraj Bhan in his cross-examination has said: “Except for an inscription carved by Mir Baqi, I did not come across any other epigraphical evidence on the basis of which the disputed site may be called Babri Masjid. This inscription is as old as this masjid.”“Inscriptions were engraved at two places in the disputed structure. Both of the inscriptions were engraved in the stone but the slab of the outside inscription was fixed in the wall. Both these inscriptions were written in Persian language. I do not know Persian. It is true that I can not read Persian. So I, could not read both the inscriptions at the site and could not even see the inside inscription.”

“This mosque not built by Babar on his own; rather, it was built by Mir Baqi with the permission of Babar, and for this very reason, the Babri mosque was built only as per the means of Mir Baqi...It was so written in the stone inscription at the mosque and the same had also been seen by me before demolition of the mosque"

1360. The statement of PW 16 ... is solely based on two inscriptions which he claims to have affixed on the disputed building in Persian language though neither the witness can read Persian nor could see the inner one. ..though the witness claims that the inscriptions which were installed when he visited the premises were the same as were installed at the time of construction of the building..shows that he has not read the text of the inscriptions as published in different books..but the statement has been made on pure conjecture and surmises.
PS: All emphasis in Bold face is from the judgement and all in blue is mine.
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Re: Ram Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid verdict 30 Sep 2010

Post by chaanakya »

ramana wrote:
That red/ochre paint is similar to what we see on Hanuman idols? man to think it lasted all these years and destruction.
These are latest after temple was open for worship.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

x-posted from GD thread.

Long post. Sorry.

This post doesn't contain any judgement per se but is useful to know how the judges looked at the primary evidences for deciding the question (one of the issues before the court) - {paraphrased} As to whether Babur built the mosque and when it was actually built.

H'ble Judge says that since all parties include Sri Jilani agree that the primary source for determining who and how the Mosque was built are the inscriptions on the structure, a very detailed scrutiny of all sources of the inscriptions and their interpretations is required. {My words. sorry couldn't trace the exact para where it is in the judgement. my fault}

Hon'ble Sudhir Agarwal
Vol 7 - http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... Vol-07.pdf
Page 1854
The Sharqi Architecture of Jaunpur; with notes on Zafarabad, Sahet-Mahet and Other Places in the North-Western Provinces and Oudh by A. Fuhrer; Original edition 1889 three inscriptions wherefrom he (Fuhrer) formed the opinion that the said building was constructed at Ayodhya in A.H. 930, or A.D. 1523, by Mir Khan, on the very spot where the old temple Janam Asthanam of Ramachandra was standing.
….
1437. The inscription No. XL was over the central mihrab, written in Arabic characters and gives twice the Kalimah as under

1438. Inscription No. XLI was found on the mimbar (right hand side of the disputed building) written in Persian poetry, the metre being Ramal, in six lines:……

1439. Inscription XLII was found above the entrance door of the disputed building written in Persian poetry, the metre being Ramal in ten lines. He further says that some characters of the second and whole third lines are completely defaced:
….
Page 1588 (89/251)
1441. The second extremely relied work is "Babur- Nama" by A.S. Beveridge (first published in 1921) (reprinted in LPP 1989, 1997, 2000),

1442. It appears from Appendix U that she got the text of the two inscriptions through the Deputy Commissioner of Fyzabad on an enquiry made by her husband about two inscriptions mentioned by several Gazetteers said to be existed on the Babar mosque at Ayodhya. However, at the bottom, note 2, she says that while reproducing the text a few slight changes in the turm of expression have been made for clearness sake. The text of the inscription inside the mosque as quoted in Babar-Nama by A.S. Beveridge is as under:

1445. The third set of text of inscription we are confronted with, is that published in "Epigraphia Indica-Arabic & Persian Supplement (In continuation of Epigraphia Indo- Moslemica) 1964 and 1965" published by the Director General Archaeological Survey of India, New Delhi. On page 49, the chapter begins with the heading “Inscriptions of Emperor Babur” said to be written by the Late Maulvi M. Ashraf Husain and edited by Z.A.Desai.

1446. On page 58 under sub-chapter VIII-X, "Inscriptions Dated A.H. 935, from Ajodhya", the author has referred to three inscriptions said to have existed at Babur's mosque. The author's comments about those inscriptions are:

On the eastern facade is a chhajja, below which appears a Quranic text and above, an inscription in Persian verse. On the central mihrab are carved religious texts such as the Kalima. On the southern face of the pulpit was previously fixed a stone slab bearing a Persian inscription in verse. There was also another inscription in Persian verse built up into the right hand side wall of the pulpit. the last-mentioned two epigraphs have disappeared. reportedly destroyed in the communal vandalism in 1934 A.D., but luckily, I managed to secure an inked rubbing of one of them from Sayyid Badru'l Hasan of Fyzabad. The present inscription, restored by the Muslim community, is not only in inlaid Nasta'liq characters, but is also slightly different from the original, owing perhaps to the incompetence of the restorers in deciphering it properly....

Page 1607
1455. From perusal of the text of the inscription said to be found inside the mosque i.e., the 6-lines inscription it is evident that the text quoted by Fuhrer, Beveridge and Maulvi F. Ashraf Hussain has apparent and demonstrable differences

1463. We are extremely perturbed by the manner in which Ashraf Husain/Desai have tried to give an impeccable authority to the texts of the alleged inscriptions which they claim to have existed on the disputed building though repeatedly said that the original text has disappeared. The fallacy and complete misrepresentation on the part of author in trying to give colour of truth to this text is writ large from a bare reading of the write up. We are really at pains to find that such blatant fallacious kind of material has been allowed to be published in a book published under the authority of ASI, Government of India, without caring about its accuracy, correctness and genuineness of the subject.....Both these
inscriptions i.e., the one claimed to be on the southern face of the pulpit and the other on the right hand side wall of the pulpitare said to be non-available by observing “of these the last mentioned two epigraphs have disappeared”. The time of disappearance according to Maulvi Ashraf Husain was 1934 A.D. when a communal riot took place at Ayodhya. However, he claimed to have got an inked rubbing on one of the two inscriptions from Syed Badrul Hasan of Faizabad. The whereabouts of Syed Badrul Hasan , who he was, what was his status, in what way and manner he could get that ink rubbing of the said inscription and what is the authenticity to believe it to be correct when original text of the inscription are not known.

…admits that the existing inscription which was restored by Muslim community was 'inlaid nastaliq' character but simultaneously says that the restored inscription is slightly different from the original and this distinction he attributes perhaps to the incompetence of the restorer ..It appears that the text which he got from Syed Badrul Hasan of Faizabad treated by him to be correct and taking it as the original text he has proceeded accordingly. It is also interesting to note that in the footnote realising this difficulty at item no.4, he has said that this tablet was found in 1906-07 A.D. by Maulvi M. Suhaib of the office of Regional Archaeological Surveyor, Northern Survey (Annual progress report of the office of Archaeological Surveyor, Northern Survey Agra for 1906-1907), Appendix ‘D’). We however, find it difficult to understand this reference if the inscription was fixed on the wall of the disputed building, the question of finding tablet by Maulvi M.Ashraf Husain does not arise.

..authenticity of the text of the two inscriptions given by Beveridge, we find that she herself had neither read the said texts nor visited Ayodhya at any point of time. She claims to have received copy of the text through some correspondence made by her husband, Henry Beveridge, an I.C.S. Officer in British India Government. Footnote 2 on page lxxvii , Appendics ‘U’ of Baburnama (Memoirs of Babur) shows that some changes were made by Beveridge also: “2. A few slight changes in the turn of expressions have been made for clearness sake.” 1471. To what extent the corrections have been made and what was necessity thereof is not ascertainable. Why a verbatim reproduction could not be made is also not understandable. The second inscription, text whereof is quoted at page lxxviii, Appendices ‘U’ of Baburnama by Beveridge, we find that the same is incomplete and the reason assigned by Beveridge is that it is not now legible. The text of second inscription was not legible to Beveridge whose book was first published in 1914/1921. We fail to understand how its complete text could be available to Maulvi M. Ashraf Husain after more than forty years thereafter who got it published in Epigraphia Indica -Arabic and Persian Supplement 1965 (supra).
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

ramana wrote:Wow so many careers are biting the dust. All those PWs must have been also examined. Any of the DW's similarly examined?
Yes , will come to that after we see how these eminences have bitten dust.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Prasad »

From the judgement in regard to

Page 1449 (200/251) Vol 6. - Hon'ble Sudhir Agarwal, J
1297. Issue No.6 (Suit-1) reads as under:
“Is the property in suit a mosque constructed by Shahanshah Babar commonly known as Babri Mosque, in 1528 A.D.?”
H'ble Judge after finding the inscriptions to be inconclusive to decide on the above question, now looks at the other primary source of information regarding Babar, namely the Baburnama. After quoting several reams of pages from Babarnama about Babars invasion of Hindustan and the environment before, during and immediately thereafter, proceeds to observe the following -

-----
Hon'ble Sudhir Agarwal, J

Vol 7 -http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... Vol-07.pdf
Page 1674
1569. As an invader Babar entered the Indian subcontinent, conquered it and did what he could or found necessary to claim victory which nobody can comment atleast today. What had been done several hundreds years back by a king invading a country or between war of two kings is obviously beyond the pale of judicial review of this Court and of any Court functioning in independent India after the promulgation of our Constitution on 26.01.1950. We have not been shown of any authority by any learned counsels that we can examine the legality, correctness or genuinity of an action of a Ruler prior to the enforcement of British enactments in the subcontinent. 1570.

However, the attempt by some of the authors to glorify or justify brutal massacre or action of some of the invaders or Rulers even if they might have conquered the subcontinent, by providing justification, explanation etc. is not understandable for the reason that the things which are evident and straight cannot be clothed with a velvet cover and would not provide a shell to give it a different colour. It shall only mislead the public at large and in particular the students of history. In our view, the historical events must be placed straight without any distortion, without any addition of words and without providing any explanation or justification in the words of the author as the same would be nothing but a sheer conjecture and surmise. If we claim that Babar felt happy having seen the mound of human heads and still we tell somebody that he was a kind hearted religious man, had no love for violence it would a blatant lie. This kind of attitude on the part of some of authors whose work has been placed before us for our consideration shows that these authors can go to the extent of glorification of any kind of misdeed which in the present day's civilised society can never appreciate or swallow......

Though the present days activities may not have any comparison with the wars and battles fought hundreds and thousands years back but to find out a positive character in such activities of the the Ruler/Kings under whom the army had done all these kind of brutalities would be a thought of abnormal minds. The lack of respect of Emperor Babar to idols meant for worship has already been demonstrated above and is fortified from what has been mentioned at page 611 of the Book “Baburnama” by Beveridge stating that he did not hesitate in destroying the idols on 28.09.1528 at Uruwa (Gwalior) where he found three sites occupied by a solid rock wherein the people had cut out idols statue large and small and he ordered for destruction thereof.
PS : All emphasis in this post is mine.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by A_Gupta »

Pages from Beveridge's book:

Imagebeveridge00000312
by macgupta, on Flickr

Imagebeveridge00000313
by macgupta, on Flickr

Imagebeveridge00000314
by macgupta, on Flickr
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

When I visited Venice,I observed in one of the churhes a famous green marble/stone pillar which the guidebook said was supposedly brought back from Byzantium/Constantinople.Similarly,if you visit the Kutb Minar,you will see that the mosque there is made from the remnants of Hindu temples and buildings! According to archaeologists,when the first Muslim invaders came to India,they built their buildings using the remains of the Hindu structures that they destroyed,which is why so much of Hindu/Indian detailing is found in the work.Later on,they started using Hindu craftsmen and stonemasons to build their new buildings and a synthesis of Muslim/Persian and Hindu architecture followed,came to be known known as the "Moghul" style

In ancient history,there are some inescapable facts,that older ruins and buildings were looted for their material,like ancient Roman buildings whose marble,etc. can be found in St.Peters,the newer churches,etc.The Roman ruins became vast "quarries" for new construction.Modern Cairo too is built using the smooth cladding of the great pyramids and material from other ancient Egyptian buildings.

The best way to determine the ancient history of the site is to actually conduct underground excavations beneath the spot where this structure once stood.These could do down a couple of hundred feet if need be,because archaeology worldwide has most often found that new sacred buildings were repeatedly built atop earlier ones.These will from the age of the earier temples be quite deep underground.In Jerusalem,the most famous of disputes exists at "Temple Mount",where the splendid ruins of the foundations of King Solomon's Temple are today's "wailing wall",the most sacred spot in Judaism.Above it are the sacred Muslim structures of the Al Aqsa Mosue and the Dome of the Rock.That these have been built on top of Solomon's temple is an indisputable fact,we can see the remains,which are at the base of the mount.The Jews want to rebuild the tenple whiuch can only be built on the same spot as the earlier two temples destroyed by the Babylonians first and the Romans a second time.There is supposedly a team of fundamentalist Jews waiting for the existing structures to be "destroyed" either by man or nature,so that they can rebuild the Temple!

I am sure that if one does some truly meaningful excavations after the land is handed over,we will be able to find the remnants of the original lost temple at a considerable depth below,considering the chronology of the era of Lord Ram,some thousands of years ago.The remnants that we see being part of the mosque structure would've been part of a later temple/structure built over the original one on the same sacred spot.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

Philip it is a known fact that the Jama Masjid and Qutb Minar were built on the remains of a Vishnu temple.

In the case of Babri Masjid there is archaeological evidence of a temple but the only difference of opinion is whether it was destroyed just before the mosque was built or in a remote period before. There are some remains from the 6th century BC there apparently, in addition to more recent remains.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Tx Shiv.I think it would be great to do a proper "dig" later on when the site is handed over,to get to the "BC" depth and see what there is.The only reason I can give for a mosque being built on existing ruins,is that the ruins provided material for the new structure,so it was built in the same place.What are the writings from that time though? There are so many "Namas" of those days which must give us some clue,whether it was destroyed first or rebuilt differently.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by Sanku »

Philip the court was clear that the new offending structure was buildt on top of a existing structure, literally. Basically all the columsn, walls which existed were reused in situ, and joined together by new bricks etc after destruction of the existing religious character of the constituent temple.

It is covered in the series of posts covering the archeological aspects of the majority judgement by Chaankyaa.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by chaanakya »

x-posted from GD

Next Expert Witness examined in the court and considered by HC is PW16 Sri Suraj Bhan

J Sudhir Aggarwal
Vol 15
Pages 3604- 9 105/251 OF THE vol) Para 3608-
http://www.rjbm.nic.in/sa/Judgment%20RJ ... Vol-15.pdf
3608. PW-16 Sri Suraj Bhan, a Professor in the Ancient Indian Archaeological Department of Kurukshetra University, Rohtak, has deposed that according to his research, no evidence he could find whereupon it could be said that the Babari Mosque was constructed after demolition of a temple. He is co author of document, Exhibit 62 (Suit-4) (also Exhibit 45, Suit 5; Register 32 Page 231) which is a letter said to be prepared by four historians, namely, Dr. R.S. Sharma, M. Athar, Sri D.N. Jha and PW 16. He claims that the archaeological part in the said document was written by him.
Some would remember that this letter was also published in The Hindu and other News Papers
3609. Exhibit 45 (Suit-5) (Register 32 Page 231) is a photocopy of a booklet claimed to be written by R.S. Sharma, M. Athar Ali, D.N. Jha and Suraj Bhan titled as “Babari Mosque or Rama's Birth Place? Historians Report to the Indian Nation” dated 13th May 1991. This document has been heavily relied by the plaintiffs (Suit-4) in support of the submissions that neither the site in dispute was ever believed to be the birthplace of Lord Rama nor there existed any temple which was demolished to construct building in dispute.Itsrelevant extract is:( I am giving only relevant extracted extract

"Introduction
For the last two years a furious agitation has been organised in this country under the aegis of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and its allies over what has come to be known as the Ram Janambhumi-Baburi Masjid Dispute.Precious lives have been lost, communal riots have brokenout, and for the first time since independence the secular nature of our State has come under serious threat, all
seemingly over the issue of what is to be done to a 16thcentury structure at Ayodhya.
<snip>

However, in spite of these obstacles, we thought that national interest required an unbiased and impartial inquiry, so that people should be clear about what the historical facts are. We scrutinised most carefully the evidence submitted to Government by the VHP and BMAC, and collected historical material on our own. Two of us went to Ayodhya to examine and survey the site and the structure of the Baburi Masjid.
<snip>

The VHP's case rests on the following four major claims:

(1) The Hindus have always, and certainly over a long period before the construction of the Baburi Masjid, believed in there being a very sacred spot at Ayodhya, where Lord Rama was born.

(2) This spot was the very site where the Baburi Masjid now stands.

(3) A temple dedicated to Rama stood at this holy site long before the Baburi Masjid was built.

(4) The temple was pulled down to construct the Baburi Masjid at this spot.

<snip>
Within fifty years or so of the construction of the Baburi Masjid, Tulsidas composed in 1575-76 his celebrated Ramcharitmanas, the most fervent exposition of the Ramayna story in Hindi. Is it possible to believe that Tulsidas would not have given vent to heartrending grief had the very birth site of his Lord been ravaged, its temple razed to the ground and a mosque erected at that place? Surely he could not but have known of the event, had the desecration and temple-destruction taken place in 1528-29,
early in his life but long before the composition of his work. Knowing of it would be not have complained in his verses that fate (if anything else) was now preventing Rama's devotees from worshipping the very sacred seat of the Lord's birth? His silence can only mean that he knew of no such scandal; and, given his attachment to Rama and Ayodhya, this must then mean that no such event had infact taken place.

Tulsidas, on the contrary, suggests that it was not Ayodhya but Prayag that was to him the principal place of pilgrimage (tirath Raj); and so no tradition of the veneration of the any spot as that of Rama's birth at Ayodhya had yet taken shape.

<snip>

We have thus a reference to where Rama's ashes were buried, which, as we have seen from the Skanda Purana, as deemed of principal importance as svarga duara, but there is no reference to where Rama was born. We are told of “the ruins of the castle” (Ramkot) extensive enough for a search for gold to be undertaken, but not of any exact site of special veneration within that castle' – let alone a temple site desecrated by a mosque.

<snip>

Thus until two hundred and twenty years after the construction of the Baburi Masjid, there was no suggestion anywhere, in the long contemporary inscriptions of the mosque or any other description of Ayodhya that there was a precise site of Rama's birth, where the holy structure had been destroyed and the mosque built – whether we take the writings of Hindus or of Muslims or the record left by single European observer."

<snip>

No work by a daughter of Bahadur Shah or bearing the title Sahifa-i Chihal Nasa-i Bahadur Shah is known to exist in any collection anywhere in the world.

<snip>

While in his so called quotation from the Counsels of the Mughal princess Mirza Jan only speaks of a temple at the site of Sita-ki-rasoi being destroyed he goes on himself to say that the Baburi Masjid was built at Rama's birthplace by destroying the temple of Ram Janamsthan, close to Sita-ki-Rasoi, so that the mosque, was then known as Sita-ki-rasoi. Thus the legent had grown to Rama's birth site had been added Sita's kitchen; and Mirza Jan was exulting in the the supposed destruction of a temple here, of which generations of earlier Hindus and Muslims were unaware.

<snip>

Subsequent to Mirza Jan's tract – in fact, subsequent to the clash over the Baburi Masjid in 1855 – the myth that the Masjid was built on the site of a destroyed temple became the common possession of the partisans of the two communities

<snip>

The conclusion that we have reached after a careful consideration of the entire available evidence may be summarised as follows:-

1. No evidence exists in the texts that before the 16th century (and indeed before the 18th century), any veneration attached to any spot in Ayodhya for being the birth-site of Rama.

2. There are no grounds for supposing that a Rama temple, or any temple, existed at the site where Baburi Masjid was built in 1528-29. This conclusion rests on an examination of the archeological evidence as well as the contemporary inscriptions on the mosque.

3. The legend that the Baburi Masjid occupied the site of Rama's birth did not arise until late 18th century; that the temple was destroyed to build a mosque was not asserted until the beginning of the 19th century, when the observer, before whom the assertion was made, disbelieved it
.
4. The full blown legend of the destruction of a temple at the site of Rama's birth and Sita-ki-rasoi, is as late as the 1850's. Since then what we get is merely the progressive reconstruction of imagined history based on faith. It is for the people of this country to judge whether on the basis of such dubious evidence as the VHP has presented in support of its case, it is justifiable to mortgage
the destiny and good repute of the country. As historians it is also our duty to point out that in no civilised country of the world is a building of the 16th century permitted to be destroyed or tempered with.

In 1891 when a Fuhrer drew up his descriptive list of Antiquities and Inscription in the North-West Provinces and Oudh, 1891, he put the Baburi Masjid among the monuments of Class II (P.P. 296-7). On page i, he explained the implications of this classification; it meant that though the monument was “in possession of private bodies and individuals”, it was possible or desirable to
save (it) from further decay by such minor measures as the eradication of vegetation, the exclusion of water from the wells and the like”. Being such a monument, the Baburi Masjid became a protected monument under the Ancient Monuments Act, 1904 (re-legislated, 1958). Besides being built nearly 450 years ago, it is a significant example of Sharqi architecture. It is a part of our common national heritage. Under law, Government must save and preserve it as a fully protected monument.

If then, we have a care for historical facts, if we want to uphold the law, if we have love for our cultural heritage, we must protect Baburi Masjid. A country is surely judged by how it treats its past."
3611. Prof. R.S. Sharma, Retired Professor of Delhi University and First Chairman of Indian of Indian Council of Historical Research; Prof. M. Athar Ali, Retired Professor of History of Aligarh Muslim University and the Former President of Indian History Congress; Prof. D.N. Jha, Professor of History, Delhi University; Prof. Suraj Bhan, Professor of Archaeology and Dean, Faculty of Social Sciences, Kurukshetra University, Haryana. This document, though claimed to be written by four historians, but as a matter of fact, it was not signed by Sri D.N. Jha, as admitted by Sri Suraj Bhan (PW 16), as expert witness.
PW 16 Sri Suraj Bhan was examined and here is the result of his examination as expert witness over the Document purpotedly prepared by him with three others and released to Media and relied upon by Sunni Waqf Board in their case.
3612. PW 16, Prof. Suraj Bhan was examined in three phases, namely, from 22.02.2000 to 10.08.2000; thereafter when
the book of T.P. Verma and S.P. Gupta, i.e., “Ayodhya Ka Itihas Evam Puratatva-Rigved Kal Se Ab Tak” (Exhibit 3, Suit-5) was published, he deposed statement from 26.08.2002 to 12.09.2002 and lastly after the ASI report he deposed statement to castigate it and his statement was recorded from 20.03.2006 to 28.03.2006.
SO here are his statements/depositions
“I got my graduation degree from Delhi University. In graduation, my subjects were Economics and Sanskrit besides English and Hindi. History was not my subject in B.A. . . . . I did my M.A. in Sanskrit from Delhi and later in archaeology and culture from M.S. University Baroda.”


“After completion of my studies up to M.A. I did nothing for one year. Thereafter I went to Baroda and joined a post in the Archaeological Survey of India. I did my M.A. in archaeology in and around 1960. I had obtained my degree while being in service there. Thereafter I got my Ph.D. I had started service in 1956 and I got my M.A. in 1960. I was conferred Ph.D. Degree in 1975. My
topic in Ph.D. was ‘Historic Archaeology of Saraswati and Drishdavati Valleys’.

My Ph.D. Thesis is not published.” (pages 13); “I had not undertaken any excavation work in Saraswati Valley at the time of writing my thesis. This excavation work in Saraswati Valley, however, was done by me before proceeding with the thesis.. . . . . I had a prior experience of excavation work because I had undertaken such work at Lothal and Bhagatrao in Gujarat.” (E.T.C.)

“At the time of excavation in the Saraswati region of Haryana, I undertook archaeological excavation. I did both the area and vertical excavation.” (E.T.C.)

I am an M.A. in Sanskrit language. I can not speak Sanskrit, and since I have not used it for quite some time, I face difficulty in reading as also in following it.”; “I did my B.A. in 1953. Sanskrit and Economics were my subjects in B.A.. English literature, too, was my subject.. . . . I did not study history and archaeology as subjects up to B.A.. I passed the M.A.Examination with Sanskrit and also with Archaeology and Culture.. . . . I only remember that ancient history and early medieval history were not in my course.
The said two parts of history was of India only.”

I am a field archaeologist and as such can use field archaeology wherever it can be used in any sphere of archaeology.. . . .“ Field archaeology has a basic method . . . . . . and I am well conversant with that field.” (E.T.C.)

“I have not studied Vedas wholly; rather, I have studied them only to the extent they were included in the curriculum of my study.” (page 4); “I know a little about Puranas.” (page 7); “I have not read Vishnu Purana.” (page 8); “I have read some portions of Valmiki's
Ramayana.” (page 15);“I have not done any research on whether Lanka of Valmiki's Ramayana may or may not be in Madhya Pradesh.” (page 16); “I do not have any specific knowledge of directions on the basis of the solar system. I did not make any special study on this subject. . . . .I have not read Vishnu Purana.” (page 18); “I have not read Rajshekhar's 'Balramayana'.. . . .As a
historian too, I did not try to know what is written in the Ramayana by Tulsi Das.” (page 19); “I have not read logic.” (page 20); “ I cannot tell when Indus valley was discovered. It is a subject of Geography.” (page 33) (E.T.C.)

“I have knowledge of post-Qutbuddin muslim history but not in its minute details; I do not have any study on it.” (page 42); “I did not read what features a mosque may not have.” (page 75); “I am not a specialist in epigraphy and numismatics.” (page 82) (E.T.C.)

“Since construction of mosques after demolishing temples is not the subject of my research, so I did not make an endeavour to make study of those places. Otherwise also, I am not a historian with regard to medieval period.”

Likewise, I did not read Tulsidas's Ramacharit Manas and Valmiki's Ramayana in entirety.

“But it is true that I am not a specialist in history.” (page 169); “I did not do any research work after making excavations in Uttar Pradesh. I did not make any excavation in Bihar.” (page 170); “I did not do any research work with respect to ancient archaeological buildings, nor did I write a book in this respect.” (page179)

“I am not a geologist. . . . . I am not a student of History.” (page 26); “I am not a specialist in architecture. I have an ordinary knowledge of it.” (page 36); “I am not a specialist in sculpture.” (page 51); “Epigraphy, too, is not my field.” (page 57); “My speciality was field archaeology, not ethnography.” (page 71): “I am not a specialist in history of temple architecture.” (page 122)
(E.T.C.)

3615. The following part of his statement is relevant to ascertain sincerity, genuineness and correctness in the alleged
research of the witness and his statement:
( HC observes) "Only Sharma and myself had gone to Ayodhya at time of Ayodhya research." (ETC)

“I gave this report in May. I might have gone to Ayodhya in February-March."


“Article(s) written by me, R.A. Sharma, D.N.Jha and Atahar Ali and other evidences were produced in the 13- 05-1991 meeting by Babri Masjid Committee on behalf of Babri Masjid. Further stated, our report had not possibly been prepared on behalf of Babri Masjid Committee. Rather our opinion was quoted in their arguments.” (ETC)

“ Out of the four impartial historians, two of us had not gone to Ayodhya and Banaras with us. I do not know whether they had gone to Ayodhya or Banaras separately or not." (ETC)

“we were given only six weeks' time for the entire study. Pressure was being repeatedly exerted; so, we submitted our report without going through the record of the excavation work by B.B.Lal." (ETC)

Note: This part of the statement is in contradiction to what has been said by PW 13 at page 199. “It is true that constructions going on a particular time are influenced by the circumstances prevailing at that time. As a historian I have seen a mosque in Benares
which is built by demolishing a temple to half its size."
(ETC)

"Sri D.N.Jha is a scholar in regard to ancient Indian history. The knowledge of Prof.R.S. Sharma is fairly extensive. He is a specialist in socio-economic history." (ETC)

“I did not make any study of any recorded history with regard to the disputed subject" (ETC)

I did not make any excavation at the site, nor was it a part of my investigation." (ETC)

"Recorded history, too, was not my subject, nor am I its specialist. I am also not a specialist in art history but I have general understanding of it.” (ETC)

3616. Later on, the witness could not tell as to in which category of specialist he is appearing: “it is true that I am not a specialist in history. I do not know that my testimony in this litigation has been only as an archaeologist." (ETC)

So you feel surprised.Here is an expert who has authored a report on the Issue used in the case of Plaintiff in Suit 4 and 5.He claims that he is not a historian, has difficulty in speaking and reading sanskrit ( his subject in MA) has done some excavation , written an unpublished thesis, does not know ancient or medieval history, has not read Ramcharit manas and Ramayana, recorded history is not his forte, admits that he has seen a mosque in Benara which was constructed by demolishing a temple and the admits having prepared a report under pressure. He is an archeologist, a field archeologist but does not know when Indus valley was discovered and says it is a matter of Geography, as if he is talking of discovery of a Volcano by National geographic. How much reliance should be placed on his deposition.

You are not alone in this surprise. HC has some scathing words for them But later.
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16268
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

^^^
More on Suraj Bhan: http://www.hvk.org/articles/0903/212.html
In the first place, both Prof Habib and Mr Bhan remarked there was no need for excavation, as nothing would emerge from beneath the mosque. When the excavation commenced, they vehemently objected to horizontal digging, saying it would destroy the mosque's (priceless) flooring, least realising that the direction was to cover the area barring the spot where Ram Lalla's idol was installed. Even otherwise, vertical excavation would be meaningless from archaeological viewpoint. They even said the ASI was incompetent. When the ASI submitted its interim reports, both interpreted that no temple structure existed beneath the mosque. When a report suggested the existence of a structure, they said it must have been another mosque constructed during the Delhi Sultanate period. They ignored the fact that no such mosque was ever mentioned in contemporary writings of Muslim historians or foreign travellers.
More on Lime and mortar too. An earlier post of mine linked to two books @ google.
It is deplorable when scholars like Prof Habib and Mr Bhan try to mislead the public by contending that the presence of glazed tiles, mortar and lime proves the structure beneath Babri Masjid was another mosque, as Hindus did not know the use of these materials. Besides, animal remains from each layer were not subjected to C14 test. As a matter of fact, glazed wares were found to be used in the Kushana period and also thereafter. Second, lime and mortar were used in Sanchi stupa, in the 2nd century. In the Gupta period as well, lime and mortar were extensively used as building material. These were also used in temples at Sarnath in the 11th and 12th century. The gentlemen ought to know the antiquity of a structure is determined not on the basis of tiles, lime and mortar, but on the basis of carbon dating of organic substance. Thus, if animal bones found at the structure reveal its age as 10th century, no matter what the structure was made of, it can be safely concluded that it was a pre-Islamic monument.
As far as the allegations about ASI being influenced by Hindutva or BJP. There were about 29 Muslim laborers in the team that did the excavation, out of about 130 or so laborers. That seems to be proportionate with Indian demographics.
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