The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

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chaanakya
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 20 Oct 2010 02:29

Whether Mosque can be lost by Adverse Possession??

J Sudhir Aggrawal
Vol 18
Page 4410-4413( 161-163/251) para 4053

The only one question which has specifically been considered and decided that was necessary in the light of
challenge thrown to the power of acquisition of land over which a mosque existing. It appears that pro-mosque parties raised a contention that a mosque cannot be acquired because of special status in Mohammedan Law irrespective of its significance to practice of the religion of Islam. This argument in the context of acquisition of land was considered from para 68 (AIR) and onwards in the judgement. The Court has held that the right to worship of Muslims in a mosque and Hindus in a temple was recognised only as a civil right in British India. Relying on the Full Bench decision of Lahore High Court in Mosque Known as Masjid Shahid Ganj Vs. Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, Amritsar, AIR 1938 Lahore 369 where it was held that a mosque if adversely possessed by non muslims it will loose its sacred character as mosque, the Apex Court held that, "the view that once a consecrated mosque, it remains always a place of worship as a mosque was not the Mahomedan Law of India as approved by Indian Courts." The Lahore High Court also held that, "a mosque in India was an immovable property and the right of worship at a particular place is lost when the right to property on which it stands is lost by adverse possession." Both these views were approved by the Privy Council and the Apex Court followed the said view. Besides, independently also the Court took the view that the sovereign power of the State empower it to acquire property. It is a right inherent in every sovereign to take an appropriate private property belonging to individual citizens for public use.

This right is described as eminent domain in American Law and is like the power of taxation of offering of political necessity and is supposed to be based upon an implied reservation by the Government that private property acquired by its citizens under its protection may be taken or its use can be controlled for public benefit irrespective of the wishes of the owner. The Court also considered the right of worship whether a fundamental right enshrined under Article 25 or 26 of the Constitution and observed,

"while offer of prayer or worship is a religious practice,[b] its offering at every location where such prayers can be offered would not be an essential or integral part of such religious practice unless the place has a particular significance for that religion so as to form an essential or integral part thereof. Places of worship of any religion having particular significance for that religion, to make it an essential or integral part of the religion, stand on a different footing and have to be treated differently and more reverentially". [/b] ( read that mosque can be lost by adverse possession but RJB having special significance cannot as it forms core of the essential of Hindu religion. Now this has been decided by Apex court long back and how one can accuse HC to rely on faith)

Ultimately the law has been laid down by the Constitution Bench by majority that under the Mohammedan Law applicable in India title to a mosque can be lost by adverse possession. If that is the position in law, there can be no reason to hold that a mosque as a unique or special status, higher than that of the places of worship of other religions in secular India to make it immune from acquisition by exercise of the sovereign or prerogative power of the State. A mosque is not an essential part of the practice of religion of Islam and namaz (prayer) by Muslims can be offered anywhere even in open. The Court also held that unless the right to worship at a particular place is itself an integral part of that right, i.e., the place is of a particular significance, its alienability cannot be doubted. The Apex Court having answered the various questions on the validity of the Act 1993 decline to answer the reference and return the same as such as it is. The suits having been revived due to striking down of Section 4(3) of the Act, this Court trying the original suits has to decide the entire matter on merits unless it can be shown that a particular issue which is engaging attention of this Court in trial of the original suit has already been raised, argued and decided by the Apex Court. The learned counsels for the parties have not been able to show any such finding in respect to the matters which are involved in various issues before this Court and, therefore, we are not in agreement with the counsels for the parties as argued otherwise.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 20 Oct 2010 03:25

Frankly i don't care much if the Temple comes around now or 20 years later. But significantly if this ruling creates an awareness that Islam and it's ruthless advocates like Ghori, Babar, Aurangzeb, Timur..

The 8000 page report by the Judges has delved into Islamist psyche in a major way and taken into account practical instances and on the ground proof of such. This indeed should reveal to well thinking Muslims that indeed Islamists were responsible for desecration and destruction of major structures in Pakistan, Afghanistan, India. The judgement gives a fair chance to well meaning Muslims to rally against those they deem to be extremist idealogues.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Oct 2010 03:44

X-post

Prasad wrote:A quick post - On the matter of faith and how the Court handles it -

Vol 18, Page 4445 (196/251)
In the matter of faith and religion, the Court will have to form an opinion and adjudicate the matter on the basis of preponderance particularly if it found the evidence of continuous faith of the entire community to several hundred and thousand of years i.e. beyond the memory of mankind and if it is found that there has been a continuity in such a faith with respect to such a place, no further adjudication by asking for direct evidence would be necessary and the Court will have to uphold such faith which has continued for time immemorial



If one thinks that history starts with the Islamic invasions then all this is myth. No wonder Barkha was in a cloud of ignorance. More like mental burkha!

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 20 Oct 2010 12:44

RamaY wrote:Narayanadas garu,

Our target audience is not Kushwant Singhs; but their readers. Most of news paper readers are the so-called secular Indians; who believe every word these yellow-experts say in popular media.

Imagine we can post an informative comment everytime an eminent-historian writes a farticle, the readers will get to know two things at the same time-

1. The truth from reader comments
2. How servile these marxist historians are.


RamaY Garu,

I fully agree with you. And I like the expression 'farticle', because it is an apt description of what Kushwant Singh and his type write. To cite a specific instance other than the one I mentioned in my earlier post, it was Kushwant Singh who recommended the banning of Salman Rushidie's 'Satanic Verses' and it was he who wrote in his column recently, sheepishly or rather shamelessly that the ban had indeed helped the book by increased sales.

I seem to have missed your comments on Kushwant's article, published in DC.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 20 Oct 2010 13:38

ramana wrote:Emienent historians never got whats coming to them before the court made its views about their attempts to distort history.


That's why the sickulars are desperately bringing in the "faith prevailed and not law" arguments as well as the disparaging panchayati type judgment ( equating this to blind and heretic beliefs ) arguments to sway the ground swell of public opinion.

They are dismayed that the pathetic knowledge of their "eminent historians" has been questioned and indeed exposed for what it is.

The genie is out of the bottle because the truth of the savage islamic invasion and intolerant rule is out in the public domain and history as written by "eminent historians" is being questioned.

The life's work of lies of many such "eminent historians" will be destroyed as well as their credibility and indeed their academic worth when seen in the true light of slyly sidelined but existing islamic historical records as well as records left by many goras.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Sri » 22 Oct 2010 12:26

Tolerating the intolerant

Writer has done a psy opps job here. He has gleefully used the term to put all Muslims / Hindus and commies in the same boat....

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Oct 2010 22:24

Grand Poohbah of the Pseudo Secualr brigade fulminates:

ONCE BELIEF IS EVIDENCE

The Ayodhya judgment’s impact is many-faceted

.....
While much of this perhaps makes sense, a feeling of uneasiness still persists. Concern over certain aspects of the rationale which forms the basis of the judgment cannot be shooed away. The main difficulty is with the train of thought leading to the judicial conclusion that the site under dispute deserves to be accepted as the birthplace of Ram.

The majority judgment cuts quite a few awkward corners before arriving where it has arrived. Ram is the hero of the great epic, the Ramayan. Its authorship is principally attributed to the sage, Valmiki. The epic has, however, been supplemented through the ages by contributions bequeathed by oral tradition, and it is an open-ended question how many of its 24,000 shlokas originated with Valmiki. :(( The circumstances of Valmiki’s own birth are obscure enough, with legend linking it with supernatural phenomena. Whether Ram was a historical figure or a character imagined by the author or authors of the Ramayan is a debate which is far from resolved. To identify the birthplace of a character who may be a figment of the poetic imagination might indeed be reckoned by many as a piece of black humour. The Ayodhya judgment nonetheless dares where scholarly angels fear to tread. Assuming — or, rather, presuming — the historical actuality of Ram as a settled fact, it shifts attention to examining the authenticity of the claim of the prior existence of a temple on the site where the now-demolished Babri mosque stood. The judgment wobbles considerably at this point. It refers to the assertion of a scatter of historians concerning the prior existence of the temple. No need to question the credentials of these scholars — but a formidable array of the most highly distinguished historians are equally convinced of the facts being otherwise. :mrgreen: The decisive factor to resolve the controversy should have been concrete archaeological evidence. This simply is not there, whatever the yet-to-be-revealed surmise of the Archaeological Survey of India.

But let that pass. For even if, for argument’s sake, it is accepted that it was on the debris of a razed-down Ram temple that the mosque got built, the question arises whether a judgment delivered in the 21st century should venture to set right a wrong perpetrated five centuries ago. Were the answer to be in the affirmative, a Pandora’s box would be opened up. The absurdities that might then ensue are best left to the imagination. :twisted:

While the issue of the prior existence of the temple remains indeterminate, the central recommendation in the judgment is on the basis of a hypothesis which — no point in not being blunt about it — takes the breath away. The ongoing debate over facts is brushed aside. A large body of opinion within the Hindu community, the judgment states, has through centuries nurtured the belief that the site in question was the birthplace of Lord Ram whom they revere as god. Whether or not Ram was a historical figure is no longer relevant; historical data and archaeological evidence are equally beside the point. Since a huge number of Hindus subscribe to a certain belief, that belief, the judgment avers, deserves to be given the imprimatur of judicial sanction. In other words, not facts, but faith will determine legal rights. :(

The judgment thereby initiates a revolution in the universe of jurisprudence: facts are not to constitute the basis of law, what is right or wrong, or true or false, will be decided upon not on the basis of factual data, but by the belief or beliefs cherished by some groups of people. The application of the doctrine adumbrated by the Ayodhya majority judgment, unless reversed, cannot be restricted only to the dispute round the Babri mosque-Ram temple imbroglio. It will set up a precedent to be generously quoted by interested parties in thousands of litigations that take place every day. A hypothetical — but not altogether far-fetched — example will be of a large crowd of villagers expressing their conviction before a court of law that a woman they were pointing their fingers at was a witch who they believed sucked the blood of little babies and she should therefore be put away. {Didn't this already happen in the US and in Western Europe! Why is he calling it hypothetical? :lol: } Judicial decision on the case could well hinge on the acceptance or otherwise of the precedent of the Allahabad High Court judgment. There could even be a grotesque situation where twenty thousand-odd citizens vouchsafe before a judge their non-belief in the due process of law as set out in official civil and criminal procedure codes and seek permission to follow their own community code. Since such non-belief could be reckoned as a matter of faith, they too might rest their case by referring to the Ayodhya judgment.

Once faith substitutes facts as cognizable evidence in a nation’s legal framework, the consequences of what might ensue could be mind-boggling. A scholarly piece carried in a recent issue (September 25, 2010) of *the Economic and Political Weekly :twisted: proposes a discourse on the desirability of incorporating a secession cleanse in the Indian Constitution. Opening the space for discussing deviation from territorial status quo, it argues, will actually help generate fresh commitment to constitutionalism. The argument may be considered as either sound or vicious, and the Kashmir chief minister’s statement might add further grist to the controversy. There could be even graver possibilities. A massive movement backed by millions of people might spread across the country proclaiming in no uncertain terms that the people want no part of a country where belief replaces facts as the foundation of judicial decision-making and they — all offspring of the 21st century — therefore demand to secede from the Union of India. How would the rest of the polity react?


With guns and butter. Butter for the pyres.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 22 Oct 2010 23:44

ramana wrote:Grand Poohbah of the Pseudo Secualr brigade fulminates:
ONCE BELIEF IS EVIDENCE
The Ayodhya judgment’s impact is many-faceted
.....
. There could be even graver possibilities. A massive movement backed by millions of people might spread across the country proclaiming in no uncertain terms that the people want no part of a country where belief replaces facts as the foundation of judicial decision-making and they — all offspring of the 21st century — therefore demand to secede from the Union of India. How would the rest of the polity react?

Ths whole article reek with treachery , cowardness and empty threats .
Rather offsprings of 21st century India are rejoicing and only non indics are objecing. Sons of India wont revolt and aliens in India can move to their ancestral lands/s or land allocated to them in 47. Time has come now that these Pseudo Indians fighting battles for foreign masters must be put in their place so india can progress peacefully.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Oct 2010 23:54

^^^ I always state that its the Fake Secular that have to be de-programmed from the deep layers of Inceptions which kill their right side of the brain. Instead of going after the IM trouble makers go after their backers within India who use them for their own purposes. Under freedom of press, contempt of court is going on and nothing is being done for it suits the politicians. The judges have given their verdict in 8000 pages and the summary is there now of how they arrived at the decision yet claumny is being spread!

The biggest consternation for the Fake Seculars is the absolute, zilch, nada violence from the Indian Muslim community. Hence they Fake Secualrs are doing their best to stoke it.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 23 Oct 2010 02:29

I think they wanted two main things - 1. Judgement in favour of the Muslim parties - Ergo permanently beat the dead horse of Hindutva with a bludgeon and ensure their core base is wiped out. Even the wishy-washy middle class Hindu of urban centre would accept the High Court and move on because s/he trusts the Courts. This did not happen. Now those very same wishy-washy middle class Hindus would feel, "well they were justified and now the Court says its everyones property. Lets move on." The P-sec crowd just can't tolerate that. Their bleatings and threats on TV will now look stupid to these very same people.
2. Even if judgement is like the one that was actually given - large scale riots which they could pin on the triumphalism of the Hindus and how it was Gujarat relapse and how yevil Hindutva can only cause death to minorities. Oh noes! - That didn't happen either. Before the judgement, the RSS, BJP, VHP and Nyas everyone piped down and said no matter what we'll keep quiet. 1 Wicket down. Thereafter after the verdict they just said they'll build a mandir and they're happy with the verdict. Including LKA saying that on live TV. 2nd wicket down. The only thing Burqa aunty kept harping that day of the verdict was that the bjp/vhp wanted to build a GRAND mandir instead of a modest small decrepit one. Anyone whos anybody in India knows that if we do build a temple anywhere we would like it to be a big ***** temple. Check out the new Akshardam temple in Delhi or the Golden temple in Vellore. So another wicket down there.

They just can't handle it if things go against their grain. Pompous self-entitled bozos.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 23 Oct 2010 21:51

Before going in to the main topic I wish to write how the civil suits are filed, heard and decided in Indian courts. This will explain the background for the suits generally and help you to understand the general background of the case and judgment. I was an advocate before joining service and have little knowledge in law. So unlike leftist “intellectuals” “Historians” “Civil Society” fellows you can be confident that I know a little something about what I am writing now.

The procedure relating to civil suits is governed by the Indian Civil Procedure Code. It is a British era code updated from time to time by Indian Parliament and still needs lot of improvement.

Normal process in the civil suits as per the said code can be described in summery as follows:

1. Any person/s who wants to enforce a civil right can file a suit by
filing a Plaint along with documents as evidence before the civil court having jurisdiction.

2. The person/s who files the suit is called a plaintiff. The persons on whom the suit is filed are called as Defendants.

3. After the plaint is admitted and numbered/registered the civil court
will issue summons to defendants.

4. The defendants on receipt of summons will appear in the court and
file their version in writing which is called as Written Statement. They can also file documents from their side.

5. The court after that examines the plaint and the written statement
and identifies the points which are under dispute and list out the same.

6. The process of identifying the points in dispute and listing them
is called as framing of issues and the points of disputes are called as issues.

7. After the issues are framed the court will allow plaintiff and
defendants to put forward their evidence by way of oral evidence of witnesses on their behalf and these witnesses will identify and produce the documents. The documents will be marked with serial number and taken on record.

8. Evidence can be admitted only on the issues that is points of
dispute identified by the court as above. No extraneous issue and evidence relating to such issue will be admitted in any civil suit.

9. Once both sides complete their evidence the court will hear
arguments from both the sides and pass the judgment.

10. In the judgment court will analyze give finding on each of the
issues framed by it.

11. A summery of the operating part of judgment will be issued by the
court which is called as Decree.

All the litigations filed in respect of the disputes relating to the Ram Janmabhumi property are civil suits filed in the civil court seeking various reliefs like declaration of title, Injunction to allow worship and things like that. The trial was going on day to day basis in the High Court of Allahabad Bench at Lucknow by a 3 judge bench for several years.

As mentioned above court had framed several issues in each of these suits. It has heard oral evidence from all the sides, gathered evidence from in the form of ASI report documents filed etc and fixed a date for judgment. After a totally botched and failed attempt by Congress inspired litigant to postpone the judgment court has fixed the 29th September 2010 for delivery of the judgment.

The leftist gang who actively collaborated with the Wakf Board in their case caught in their own lies was waiting eagerly in anticipation of a pro Muslim judgment. Many left wing “historians” “experts” have given evidence in the case. For years on every forum they have ridiculed everything Hindus believe and the idea of Sri Rama itself. Extreme leftwing organizations like SAHMAT even tried to insult Hindus deliberately showing Rama and Sita as brother and sister based on some remotely known Buddhist tradition. We all know how New Delhi has even filed an affidavit in Supreme Court in the Rama Sethu project case saying that Sri Rama is a myth and it was withdrawn when Hindus were up in arms.

With all this background left is expecting confirmation from the Judiciary that they are correct. Sri Vinod Mehta Editor of Outlook, a couple of weeks before the judgment said on TV that he expects that Muslims will win the case as they have more documents. What documents he is speaking I could not understand. Sale deed in favor of Wakf board?? Either he does not know what he is speaking about or deliberately lying. I think it is the second case. No property transactions were taken place in respect of the disputed property since we started having records. Then what documents will be there? Proof of possession? For decades before 1949 Muslims were not performing daily prayers there. Many incidents of fighting taken place in respect of the same site. In fact till 1989 it was generally agreed that the disputed structure was constructed after demolition of the Hindu temple. So how come left thought it would be walk over to Muslims in the court? Arrogance of the left and lack of opposition to them left them deluded believe that they will win the suit without fail.

Till 4 PM, on the verdict day, all our secular gang singing one song. It is:

Law is supreme and verdict of the court shall be accepted and respected by all. Nothing major is going to happen after the judgment as the aggrieved parties can and will approach the Supreme Court. So no one should feel despair etc.

Secular media & TV fellows lined up “legal luminaries” politicos and Secular gang Page3 gang to discuss the judgment immediately it is delivered.

Strangely they thought they can discuss and debate a judgment which they know runs into several thousands of pages immediately after it is pronounced and made public. Our “secular” lawyers are so great that they can read, analyze, form an opinion of such a big judgment within few minutes of it is pronounced. They must be thinking that they are Shakuntala Devi of Legal profession. They are in fact made great comments critical of the judgment without fully reading the full judgment. Complete absence of honesty by these so called legal luminaries is disgusting to say the least.

Media and Government had created great fear and hype that there is every chance of disturbances. An artificial situation is created by the Union Government and press fellows wherein create most of the nation feared something wrong will happen once the judgment is out. For week’s people of lead to believe that something serious bad is going to happen immediately after the judgment. Roads in various cities and towns across India were deserted from the afternoon on that day. All the schools were closed. Is it an admission that we are not ready to accept Judgment and will automatically resort to violence? Entire tension was created with a clear intention to celebrate Hindu defeat in the court as a great occasion.

At the same time Press and TV is full of stories about how the country has moved on from 1990’s. No one bothered to ask if the country moved on from 1990’s then why there is need for fear.

In the morning at the office, one of my colleagues asked me how the court is likely decided. Since I have little knowledge in the matter and read the news reports on the ASI report I said Hindu side may win.

Most of the time in the office spent on discussions on this matter only. By 12 bosses have informed that those who want to go home by afternoon may leave. Many left almost immediately. Bangalore looked like a city under curfew by 1 PM. I left my office at 3 PM. Many from the morning advised me not to go through Muslim areas of Bangalore on my way back. Taking advantage of the mad situation I came back driving through the Muslim areas to home and started to see the TV news. Arnab Goswamy on times now and see the drama. At about 4.10 PM Headlines today flashed an item that that Wakf Board’s suit was dismissed.

Within 15 minutes various other main points and the 3 summaries of the judgments started coming out. Immediately all hell has broken lose in the Secular camp. Management and misreporting of the judgment has started immediately by Arch Secular news persons like Burkha Dutt.

NDTV started running a scrolled that Justice Khan held that there is no evidence of temple being destroyed. But they conveniently It conveniently did not report that he was in minority and Majority judges held that temple was destroyed by Muslim forces.

As per the TV’s land was divided in 3 parts between Nirmohi Akhada, Hindus and Muslims. Further it was reported that the judges held Sri Ram was born at the place where in the ideal are now situated. Judges only held that Hindus believe that Sri Ram was born at that placed and worshiped there for times immemorial. There is a difference of holding that a faith to be true and holding existence of a faith a true. None of the TV people wanted to tell the distinction.

Unfortunately I could see only one TV at a time so I could see only part of the rubbish that was being discussed and reported on that day and one or two days following that. After a couple of days, everything is forgotten TV’s are back reporting on films, cricket and other page3 items.

Now the problem faced by left is gone beyond one suit. Several of their lies like those mentioned below are under danger of being exposed. Ideas like

There are no temple demolitions by Muslim invaders in India.
Islam is peaceful and part of Indian History.
Lower caste people in India were converted because of the oppression by the Upper caste Hindus and there were no forceful conversions.
There is no historical bases for Hindu faith and it is all myth created by Brahmins (Though the court did not gave any finding on historical base for any Hindu epics in the suit)
There is nothing great about Hindus and the idea of our nation.
Muslims and Hindus are living peacefully together and it is only British who created communal disturbance.

What left wanted is a judgment which is “politically correct” , that is give the land to Muslims and tell Hindus to keep quite and forget their backward beliefs and myths. Instead of that, left now fear that their words are going to be questioned more forcefully from now onwards. That is why the attacks on the Judgment are there.

What happen to all the talk and sermons about accepting the judgment and rule of law? Left does not want truth to come out. They don’t want judgment suitable to left politically.

Many readers may not remember what are the views of he left on “Philosophy of Judges” advocated by left and left wing of congress in between late 1960’s and early 1970’s. The sick speech by Late Sri Kumaramanganam then Ministerial of State for Steel of congress in Parliament wherein he advocates judges shall share the philosophy of the government still remembered by many. But left seems to have forgotten its role and what it had advocated then. The position of the left then was the philosophy of the judges should be that of the government. The leftwing and India Gandhi saw to that all the judges in Supreme Court who does not agree with them do not get any promotion to Chief justice. Now they think we all forgotten. They don’t want the nation to remember what they wanted the judiciary to become and tried their level best to convert it into their tool. They failed in their efforts long back. Now than not agreed with their lies the attacks are on.

All this criticism by “eminent historians” “civil Society people” “Human rights groups” is to continue with their lies and continue with the iron grip on the Indian History. They wish even to put pressure on the Judges of the Supreme Court and overturn this High Court judgment. Let us see what will happen in Supreme Court.


Views of the advocates appeared in Hindu side.

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main47.asp ... ts_can.asp

Also posted in my blog at - http://rlindia.blogspot.com

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 25 Oct 2010 09:28

A nice write up in the TOI.

It's the process, not the outcome!

Posting in full as deserves to be read in full.

More and more voices are emerging on the Ayodhya verdict cautioning us against it and pointing out its flaws. After an initial period of uncertainty, caused by the unusualness of the judicial intervention, the lines are being drawn again. Respected voices from the secular side of the table are increasingly arguing against the court's acceptance of faith as a legitimate ground upon which to base a decision on property rights. Some have argued that the verdict is a test case for the idea of India and its claims to being a democracy where every group's interests are guaranteed protection, regardless of their size and importance. The Indian Muslim is hurt but gracious, some argue and the onus is on us to ensure that justice prevails.



It is true that a sensitive case like this becomes a litmus test for any democracy for it forces us to put our money where our mouth is. The demolition of the Babri Masjid was a blot on the idea of India as is the continuing inability of any government to take action against those who orchestrated it. But in this instance, the situation is quite different. A vexatious problem has gone to the court, where it has been given due consideration in the prescribed manner. After going through the due process, a verdict has emerged. No one has argued that the process was compromised in any way, or that the verdict came out under pressure from any side. And as is the right of the litigants, the verdict is being appealed in the Supreme Court.



The attempt to prise open the judgement and argue with its contents is fraught with troublesome consequences. It places the commentator above the law, and infects what is meant to be an impartial process with the contagion of doubt. Questioning the judgement and accusing it of pandering to majoritarian sentiment is to doubt the idea of the court itself. The judicial system is constructed so as to stand outside the pulls and pressures of politics and society; it is only then that it can provide the task of passing judgement on issues. It is interesting that before the judgement, everyone connected with the case promised to abide by the verdict, no matter what it was. The judicial process enjoys immunity from our suspicions about the other persons motives, and this immunity is important to preserve. Providing a super-judgement on top of the verdict is an invitation for every side to do so, in case the Supreme Court decision is not to their liking. Nothing can be more secular than the idea of the judiciary, particularly in a situation like this one where the problem cannot really be solved; it can at best be settled.


In any case, the key argument, that the court is confusing history with faith is also a dangerous one to make. Lets argue this the other way- is historical fact sufficient reason to grant rights to a particular community? If it were historically true that a religious structure of one community was destroyed and replaced with a structure of another faith, would it give the earlier structure an automatic right to exist today? Arguing for a historical basis to this decision is to open a giant can of worms, for where will we stop , how far will we go back and who will adjudicate as to what was a historical fact and what wasn't? This argument is an open invitation to those who wish to rewrite history, using the ink of today's power structure and creates an endless spiral of revisionism.



It has also been argued that there is pressure on the Indian Muslim to fall in line and to accept what in this view is a compromised solution. There is some truth to this, but it is troubling that after arguing passionately and quite correctly, that the Muslim is not a single entity when it comes to the challenging the spectre of Global Islamic militancy, how easily we revert to the One Muslim Voice stereotype in this case. Why should there be a unified Muslim reaction to the verdict? As regards the pressure to fall in line, it is true that the exhortation to 'move on' is often an expression of the facile reading of history by those privileged enough to be able to ignore it, but in a democracy, everyone has a right to express their opinion and in any case, in the larger scheme of things, this pressure is irrelevant. What matters is what the Supreme Court thinks.



In a case like this, the search for a technical version of justice is futile. It is important to acknowledge that there are two sides to this dispute and that any lasting solution must accommodate both. The details of what this nature of accommodation are, should not engage us too much as long as the process we follow is above reproach. The test of the idea of India is the guarantee that we provide on the process, not on the outcome. Let us pretend that the court is a black box from which a verdict will emerge, which we will embrace no matter what. If it gives something to both sides, then we cannot hope for anything more. If not, the grounds for rejecting the final verdict have already been laid. Today it is by one side, tomorrow it could be the other. And that is very bad news.


It is surprising to see that the TOILET allowed some thing like this to be published

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Mauli » 27 Oct 2010 20:34

Ahmadi dismisses Ayodhya judgement as no judgement

Former Chief Justice of India (CJI) A M Ahmadi has dismissed Allahabad High Court judgement on Ayodhya's land dispute as no judgement.


It can not be called a judgement at all, Justice Ahmadi said at a seminar on ''Ayodhya judgement; civil society response''here on Saturday. It was organised by the Institute of Objective Studies.

Referring to the September 30 judgement, he said, ''I was taken aback by the Allahabad High Court judgement on the Ayodhya title suits. I doubt if this can even be called a judgement.'' The ex-CJI said the judgement had to be contested because the ethos of rule of law, the democratic system and the Constitution itself were at the stake.

Justice Ahmadi also blamed the Supreme Court for demolition of Babri Masjid in Ayodhya on December 6, 1992.

http://www.newkerala.com/news/world/fullnews-71258.html

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Oct 2010 20:36

Wasn't he the Bhopal Union Carbide funded NGO CJI?

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Tamang » 27 Oct 2010 21:22

ramana wrote:Wasn't he the Bhopal Union Carbide funded NGO CJI?


Yes

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Oct 2010 21:54

So how much credibility he has after he had to resign!

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 28 Oct 2010 05:08

As per the rumors we had when he was CJ, his girl was practicing from his official residence and is panel advocate for most of the big people. Religion played a major role in his statement.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby saket » 28 Oct 2010 05:46

^^Yep, Ahmadi's daughter was filing several crores in IT returns as a SC lawyer while he was the CJI.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 30 Oct 2010 09:43

Many posts on this forum are quite informative and educative. Members like "Chaanakya" and others have done a commendable job in wading through the bulky 8000+ page judgement to cull excerpts that make it intelligible to ordinary mortals.

However, in order to counter the disinformation campaign mounted by the pseudo-secular, left-liberal crowd it is necessary to reach a wider audience by publicizing the truth. This means organising seminars and publishing booklets with extracts from the judgment including the following:

1. Cross-examination transcripts of the pro-Masjid experts.
2. Comments by the justices on the evidence tendered and the cross-examination
3. Comments of the justices on historians and history writing

For such a campaign to be successful it requires an organisation that has nation-wide reach and organising capabilities. Therefore an organisation like the VHP could possibly undertake such a campaign. Members of this forum could form a committee to assist the organisation in the initiative. In addition there are a large number of enthusiasts seen in many social networks who wish to partake in such an initiative. Could we bring them all together for a common cause?

................................
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 30 Oct 2010 10:15

ramana wrote:Wasn't he the Bhopal Union Carbide funded NGO CJI?



This scamster has the gall to grab undue benefits whilst in and out of office by hook and crook.

He by word, deed and malicious action has cheated the people of Bhopal, a great many of the affected parties being people of his own community. He has done this sort of cheating for the longest time in his career.

There are many other CJis, Presidents, vice presidents and governors who have wilfully subverted the constitution for personal gain. These scoundrels have not done it openly but by on the sly by masquerading as something they are not.

They have done so by misrepresenting their religion and / or political ideology.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 01 Nov 2010 10:21

Image

Ram Temple

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 01 Nov 2010 19:56

The quintessence of Indian secularism in its zeitgeist is not in separating the state from religion as the word originally connoted but in opposing Hinduism, its philosophy and social mores.

There are three kinds of nations in the world. In first world democracies every religion enjoys equal status vis-à-vis the state, probably with a slight but understandable tilt towards the majority religion. Therefore no one would take exception when the president of the US takes oath on the bible when sworn into office or lights a Christmas tree on Christmas eve. After the break up of USSR, nations in Eastern Europe abandoned the dead religion called communism and moved into this category. In the theocratic states only the dominant religion is - allowed to be - practised in public.

India that is Bharat belongs to the third category - alone in the world - where there is an undeclared apartheid against the majority religion. Unbelievable? But true! Every child is initiated into school after a prayer to Saraswathi the goddess of learning. Yet Saraswathi Vandana or invocation to the goddess of learning was not allowed in a conference of Education Ministers. The received wisdom was that it would offend the sensibilities of a minority religion. Now look at the contrast. During the holy month of Ramjan every two-bit politician and his uncle - of the majority religion - dons a fez cap and hosts at least one Iftar party.
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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 04 Nov 2010 12:19

May DIWALI, the festival of Lights LIGHT UP YOUR HOMES AND FILL YOUR HEARTS WITH JOY!

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Karna_A » 05 Nov 2010 00:01

unarayanadas wrote:May DIWALI, the festival of Lights LIGHT UP YOUR HOMES AND FILL YOUR HEARTS WITH JOY!

.........................
Please sign the petition: ONLINE PETITION TO NDTV AGAINST BLATANT ANTI-HINDU COVERAGE


Can someone please ask this question to Burkha Dutt if you happen to be in her audience

Golda Meir said following "Not being beautiful was the true blessing... Not being beautiful forced me to develop my inner resources"

Given the quote above, Can Burkha please answer how and which inner resources she ever developed and if pseudo secularism is a plot to hide her own insecurities.
Of course we are just talking about the ugliness of her thoughts.


She hasn't been to California since long or I have a few ready questions for her.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 06 Nov 2010 11:59

Touche!, Karna_A

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 10 Jan 2011 19:25

As the Rama Janma Bhumi - Babari Masjid case reached the Supreme Court, please find here two Supreme Court judgments on the “Justiciability of questions of faith and belief."

These were sent to me in a personal communication by Sri M. Gowri Shanker a former Joint Secretary in the Ministry of Law, Government of India and a retired Judicial Member, Customs, Excise and Gold Control Appellate Tribunal

Case I: In view of S.9 of the C.P.C., the enquiry by the court should be confined to disputes of a civil nature and a suit for vindication or determination of such rights is maintainable.

In the present case, there is a question as to whether the right of worship of the Respondents will be effected in case of implementation of the resolution.

The scope of enquiry in such suit is limited to those aspects only that have a direct bearing on the question of right of worship and, with a view of considering such question, the court may examine the doctrines, faith, rituals, and practices for the purpose of ascertaining whether the same interfere with the right of worship of the aggrieved parties.
" (1988)2 S.C.C 3

Case II: "The first question which calls for our decision is whether the the tenets of the Vallabha denomination and its religious practices postulate and require that worship by the devotees should be performed at the private temple owned and managed by the Tilkayat and so the existence of a public temple is inconsistent with the said tenets and practices. In deciding the question as to whether a given religious practice is an integral part of the religion or not, the test always would be whether it is regarded as such by the community following the religion or not......". Per Gajendragadkar J in the famous Natdwara case reported in (1962) 1 S.C.R 383, 411.

"Thus it can be seen that the first case relates to questions of faith amongst others and the second is concerned with belief." - M. Gowri Shanker

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Chandragupta » 24 Apr 2011 12:52

http://www.hindu.com/2011/04/24/stories ... 841300.htm

Multi-faith complex mooted in Ayodhya. P-secs and members of Civil Soshitty are really trying hard to prevent any temple coming up that site.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby sum » 24 Apr 2011 14:44

^^ Interesting as to how the judgement of the HC is completely ignored as if it never happened... If the verdict was on the other side, can imagine the arguments of the same P-secs.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby tejas » 24 Apr 2011 19:29

Why would the faithfools allow a "multi faith" entity to be built when the Koran orders them to destroy idols and kill idolators wherever they find them? Anyway, if such a structure is to be built it should only be allowed to be modeled on similar centers in Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of the the ever peaceful religion.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 26 Apr 2011 19:00

The speakers in the "seminar" are the usual suspects, left-libtards, jholawallahs and of course Muslim "intellectuals" like A.G.Noorani whose bigoted views pass for "secular" opinion in our great "secular" republic. The recent obiter dicta of the SC in the Binayak Sen bail order do not portend well for the Sri Ram Mandir movement.

See this pioneer editorial:Binayak Sen is smiling.- So are Maoists who wage war on India

If the courts decide to placate the left-liberal or even extra-national constituencies like the EU, then the final judgement might go against the Sri Ram Mandir movement. It's time Hindu organisations shed their complacency and initiated steps for a Hindu resurgence and to build strong public opinion in favour of the temple.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 26 Apr 2011 20:40

Let us put the things in context. The commie B*****d Sen is not going to escape. His appeal is before High Court of Chatisgarh. After that again in Supreme Court. He only got suspension of sentence. Not bail as reported. Bail is before conviction and suspension of sentence is after conviction. This is the most useless provision in Indian criminal law which need to be removed altogether. Please see my blog rlindia at the rate blogspot.com wherein I have mentioned how this works for criminals like Sen and how entire justice system is being bypassed.

Comming the the civil appeal in Ramjanmabhumi issue, let us not forget the case of the Jihadis is weak and they failed like anything in the trial court. I fail to see based on the same materail how SC can reverse the judgement of the HC of Allahabad. Further Hindu side is going to be represented by People like Ravishakar Prasad who know the entire case in side and out. So it is not some Congress appointed advocate keeping mum to gain help of the Naxal in WB elections so that Sen can get out of Jail.

Have do fear Sathyameva Jayathe. In any event the India State can not remove Ramlala from that site and servive.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 26 Apr 2011 22:12

Your reply is reassuring. I'll look up http://rlindia.blogspot.com/ Thank you.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 29 Apr 2011 19:53

Now the appeals on before Supreme Court. These cases are first appeals in the civil side. Allahabad High Court has acted in the original side and conducted trail and gave judgement. In the first appeals, as per the civil law of India, both evidence and legal position will be heard and examined once again. Normally no fresh evidence will be allowed to be introduced in the appeals. i do not see possibility of some important and previously unknown evidence coming up at this stage. So Supreme Court has to hear what ever material what is there on record.

In this condition all the gurus who has examined the entire evidence here can reassess the same and see if any different conclusion can be drawn on the same material. My dirty communal mind says that it is not so easy. There is several legal issues are there and there is always possible to reach different view. But with serious defects in the evidence I do not see how Jihadi case will servive.

My view as an advocate for 6 years before AP High Court and as a Legal advisor for some 12 years after that is

1. The case of the Jihadists has considerably weakened with their admission that they agree that Hindus belive that Ram is born in the present Ayodhiya city. They have initially disputed the same in the written statement. With this the Hindus need only prove there is some temple etc and a particular place is believed to be Janmasthan. For that there is sufficient material for that.
2. The disputes on the site are known well and there is considerable material to show that. There was no uncontested and peaceful possession to Muslims till 1948/9 at any given point of time. Further their suit is hopelessly to time barred.
3. Jihadi forces have their worst enemies in our Jholawala brigade and AMU/JNU historians who do not know their difference between A*s to elbow in the history and never tried to learn it. You can see a Doctor in History saying that Prudhvi Raj is the ruler of Afghanistan in this case. What else you need to lose?
4. Jihadis never accepted that there is strong case for Hindus. So I wonder they make any better effort in the appeal. I wonder any Senior Advocate will tell them on the face that that they are facing serious problem with the lack of evidence and the streamnth of Hindu evidence. Jihadis simply can not accept that. They are now thinking that the Allahabad Court is somehow made a serious mistake and there is no material to support Hindu case. It is just like 9/11 is a Jew thing.
5. It takes lot of effort to conduct the case or an appeal of this nature. Lot of support is needed to be given to the advocate in supplying the material etc. Civilisationally , this is the first time in the History of Islam, Jihadi forces had to prove their right for occupy a place before a non religious court. I think they are not capable of effectively doing that. Arguing for truth takes lot of practice and social and cultural background and they as group do not have it. They need no prove anything as true as long as their have big swords and now they all believe their side is correct and rest is western conspiracy.

I have not gone minutely into evidence and these are my views on the weaknesses Jihadis as litigants have and I am of the view that much time these weaknesses play decisive role in the litigations.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby SandeepA » 30 Apr 2011 15:55

What is this now? Has the HC verdict not happened?


Temple-Mosque at Ayodhya?

Mahant Gyan Das and Hashim Ansari, who started the track-II negotiations for a settlement after the September 30 high court verdict, are the men behind the present formula. While Gyan Das is the chief priest of powerful Hanuman Garhi temple and also the head of Akhara Parishad, Ansari is the oldest litigant of Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid title suit from the Muslim side.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Chandragupta » 30 Apr 2011 17:06

Why does Mahant Gyan Das believe he has the authority to squander away one of the most holiest piece of land for a billion plus Hindus?! I am betting he is another pawn of the P-sec brigade who are now working overtime to ensure a temple never comes on the site. Bribed with free publicity, some backside licking & promises of front page photos and Shri Mahant happily obliges, even managing to badmouth VHP & BJP in the process. Why would the Hindus want an out of court settlement when they have already won the case in a court of law?

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 30 Apr 2011 19:14

No one person is going to have authority to settle (???) this matter. Too many groups are involved in both sides. Matter will have to be decided by Supreme Court only.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby Atri » 09 May 2011 13:51

Ayodhya title dispute: SC stays Allahabad HC verdict

NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court on Monday put a stay on the Allahabad high court order partitioning the disputed land in Ayodhya.

The SC said it was strange on Allahabad high court's part to order partitioning of the disputed land at Ayodhya as no party had prayed for it. The partition of disputed land has "opened a litany of litigation", it said.

"How could the high court engineer something like partitioning of disputed land on its own", the SC asked.

While directing that there shall be no religious activity on the 67 acre land, acquired by the central government adjacent to the disputed structure, the apex court bench said the status quo shall be maintained with regard to the rest of the land.

In the wake of the court's order, prayers at Ram Lala's make-shift temple at the disputed site in Ayodhya would be going on as usual.

"We are not disturbing anything which was going on", said a bench of Justices Aftab Alam and R M Lodha.

The court also issued notice to all parties on Allahabad high court judgment dividing the disputed land at Ayodhya between Hindus, Muslims and Misnoig.

This was the first hearing in the apex court after the Allahabad high court's verdict in the title suit delivered in September last year.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby brihaspati » 11 May 2011 01:03

^^^Towards the inevitable! But good! One of those moments when the rashtra is forced to choose sides and therefore expose its loyalties.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby unarayanadas » 11 May 2011 13:19

A bold editorial that calls for judicial restraint: Needless commentary. It also advises the Supreme Court to "show greater restraint" in dealing with the subject.

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Re: The Ram Janmbhoomi Verdict: News and Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 May 2011 09:43



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