Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

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Arjun
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Arjun »

The BJP seems to have chosen not to respond to farts from Rahul and Doggy Raja...time will tell whether this was strategic or a mistake. They better have a strategy to corner the Congress on corruption, else its clearly time for a new nationalist front.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

Marten wrote:Mupallaji, isn' the Padma Vyuh meant to protect Jayadratha (as in, the very same that was conjured by Drona and Karna to protect Jayadratha from Arjuna's vow to seek revenge for Abhimanyu's death) vs. Abhimanyu's Cakra Vyuh?
The details are here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padmavyuha
csharma wrote:Just as Gandhi's assasination provided a cover for anti RSS operations, sections of Congress want to use "terror" charges to go after RSS.
Looks like that but RSS should strategize and do something peacefully without the involvement of either BJP or UP.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Arjun »

Posting in full article by Ashok Malik...
Wiki Washy

Wiki-washy
December 21st, 2010
By Ashok Malik

Speaking at the plenary session of the All-India Congress Committee in New Delhi this past weekend, the Congress president, Mrs Sonia Gandhi, clarified that the party made no distinction between majority and minority communalism. That this truism had to be specifically stated did indicate the Congress leadership had taken the Wikileaks controversy seriously.

As revelations of United States embassy cables had made apparent, in August 2009 the American ambassador in India reported a meeting with Mr Rahul Gandhi.

At the meeting, the Congress general secretary seemed to suggest “radicalised Hindu groups” posed a “bigger threat” than Islamist mobilisation on behalf of the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba (LeT) and similar entities. The Wikileaks controversy is likely to die down soon. One cannot see it surviving to become a major issue in elections, though political rivals of Mr Gandhi may choose to bring it up from time to time. This is not without significance. Mr Gandhi has offered few opportunities to judge his position on policy, the economy and external relations, security concerns. His political interventions have been well-meaning — “End income inequality”; “Don’t let the rich exploit the poor”; “Narrow the divide between the two Indias” — but anodyne. As such a private, unguarded conversation could potentially provide rich evidence of what really defines his worldview.

Equally, it is important to see the comments in context, and to guess the possible impact they left on Mr Gandhi’s interlocutor.

Mr Roemer and Mr Gandhi met on July 20, 2009. This was three days before Mr Roemer was formally sworn in as US ambassador to India and three weeks before he presented his credentials to the President of India. He was absolutely new to this country.

Before being appointed to the ambassadorial job in New Delhi, the most important public position Mr Roemer had held was that of member of the 9/11 Commission. It was set up following the World Trade Centre attacks to study intelligence and security lapses that allowed the worst terrorist assault on the US.

July 2009 was only eight months after the 26/11 Lashkar-triggered terror attacks in Mumbai. As such, given his 9/11 Commission background and given fresh memories of the Mumbai massacre, Mr Roemer was probably seeking a serious homeland security assessment from a senior parliamentarian he felt was part of the ruling establishment in New Delhi and sufficiently clued in. The answer he got would probably have disappointed him or at any rate taken him by surprise.

Rather than insights into the Lashkar challenge to India and the country’s post-26/11 security preparedness — which were obviously what Mr Roemer was seeking — the US ambassador received wishy-washy political opinion. To put it politely, Mr Gandhi’s response must have seemed amateur.

A counterfactual may be in order here. It is May 2002, eight months after 9/11. The Indian ambassador in Washington, D.C., is having lunch with a top-ranking member of the US Congress, one who has the ear of the administration. The ambassador asks the member of Congress about Al Qaeda’s “activities in the region and immediate threat” to the US. The Congressman retorts by saying that the “bigger threat” — bigger than al Qaeda — is probably white Christian supremacist groups. In his wisdom, these groups — whether acting suo motu or retaliating against 9/11 — are more dangerous than al Qaeda’s transnational threat or, if one is to go by the explanation offered in the light of the Wikileaks expose, than any Islamist sleeper cells that may exist in the US.

It is nobody’s case that deviant gangs of politically violent Hindus don’t exist. Some of these people — and frankly “Hindu terrorists” or “Hindutva terrorists” is not an unreasonable label for them — may have been responsible for bombings in Malegaon, Maharashtra, and a few other locations in recent years. They deserve punishment.

Yet, the threat perception from them and from Islamist private armies such as the LeT, the Jaish-e-Mohammed and the Indian Mujahideen is of an entirely different order. There has to be a sense of proportion. In 1996, the Atlanta Olympics saw a terror bombing triggered by a far-Right white American nutcase who was protesting against the legalisation of abortion and homosexuality and, additionally, considered the Olympic movement a conspiracy of “global socialism”.

It is possible — probable — that a few thousand Americans share the politics of the Atlanta bomber. Some of them could even be willing to inflict violence to get their point across. However, do they constitute a threat as lethal as Al Qaeda and the various factions of the Taliban? To be fair, Mr Gandhi was not resorting to political grandstanding. He said what he did not at a public meeting in Uttar Pradesh but in a quiet chat, presumed to be confidential, with a foreign diplomat. This leads to the portentous conclusion that he actually believed in his argument. How should one understand this?

There is a school of thought in sections of the West, particularly in Britain but in parts of the US too, that holds Al Qaeda and its affiliates do not represent a supremacist adversary that wants to conquer the world and convert it to a particular, and perhaps distorted, interpretation of Islam but are, rather, a reaction to oppression by global and domestic right-wing forces.

In this reading of the war on terror, the Islamist militia are a manifestation of the New Left, with Zionism and American imperialism as provocations and Palestine and Afghanistan and the inequality between the West and the West Asia as just causes.

There have been attempts to impose this “Islamism as the New Left” template upon India, with the Hindu Right as the provocation and the socio-economic inequality between Hindus and Muslims as the just cause. Occasionally, Kashmir, Ayodhya and Gujarat are thrown into the mix. Has Mr Gandhi bought into this argument? At some stage he needs to tell people — and not just the US ambassador.
Last edited by Arjun on 21 Dec 2010 09:12, edited 1 time in total.
Pranav
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Cosmo_R wrote:
The BJP seems to consist of clueless people like LKA, troubled Sadhvis like Uma and others whose collective IQ strains to exceed 100.

I am more and more convinced that India needs a new grass roots party like the Turkish Justice and Development Party created by Tayyip Erdogan and Abdullah Gul. It rose to power through governance at the neighborhood level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_an ... 8Turkey%29
^^^ Words of wisdom.

AKP has to be understood in an anti-colonial context (although one does always have to guard against Islamist fanaticism). Since the overthrow of the Ottomans, Turkey had been dominated by a military which was run by a self-sustaining cabal of pro-western interests.

Turkey had the advantage of democracy, which is why it could emerge from neo-colonialism. In India, we have the handicap of EVMs, which the BJP unfortunately supports, at least tacitly. There are too many sold out individuals in the BJP.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by abhischekcc »

There is another reason why the Maino family believes in this 'Hindu terror' bullshit.

In 2004, when the Congress won a surprise victory in the General elections, and Sonia Gandhi was skipping her way to the Presidential Palace to become the PM, Abdul Kalam was consulting with his senior advisors - both legal and security.

The Delhi grapevine has it that the secuirty officials told him that a very large number of armed Hindu groups (who usually keep to themselves) had become activated, with possible implications for the personal security of the Mainos.

That is why he asked Sonia to bring along MMS to the meeting with himself. And where he laid the cards in front of the two, and asked Sonia to clear the way for MMS.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Pranav »

abhischekcc wrote: The Delhi grapevine has it that the secuirty officials told him that a very large number of armed Hindu groups (who usually keep to themselves) had become activated, with possible implications for the personal security of the Mainos.
Never heard of these "armed Hindu groups". Hope you are not referring to Lathi exercises of RSS.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

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Last edited by Philip on 21 Dec 2010 11:35, edited 1 time in total.
vera_k
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Pranav wrote:Never heard of these "armed Hindu groups". Hope you are not referring to Lathi exercises of RSS.
There's the police, army and any number of other groups who'd fit the description from the perspective of a detached observer.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Raja Ram »

If indeed the Bard has to be quoted, let the criticism on the good economist also taken in the same spirit. Those who critique (note, not crticise for the sake of criticising) his acts of omission and commission do that "not because they love Ceaser less, but India more" to paraphrase the Bard.

I am sure the Italian-Indian (perfectly acceptable way of addressing Madam Sonia - like Indian American is for most Indians) should find tha acceptable rather than condemning it as despicable.

I am reminded when I hear the Congress advisories on eradacting corruption, of Mahakavi Bharatiyar's words, "When the adharmic rulers rule, even devils will quote the scriptures"

The best way to side step the real debate is to debate on something tangential to the main points. That is what is being attempted now.

In this sorry state of affairs, no one has come out well, neither the Congress, nor the opposition, the Indian corporates or the media and most importantly the apathetic so called "aam Aadmi".

No one can change India, until each Indian wants to do something about it. In their personal lives and in their personal behaviour. I for one, follow what I preach. That I can do. I also try and to share my views that each Indian has to live upto his responsibilities to protect his rights with others. That I can do. And that I do. To the best of my ability.

I refuse to believe that there cannot be any better tomorrow or things cannot be changed by ordinary Indians. That is being a coward. That I am not.

What I do not like is a sense of cyncism that nothing can be done. So I feel compelled to urge gentle readers to recognise that India is going through a tremendous inflexion point. It will come through, but we need to fashion on what it will become. That is the duty that beckons us. After all Dharmo Rakshati Rakshinahah - Dharma protects those who protect it.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by rajpa »

it is true that rg's statements have hurt a lot of moderate hindus..

but gentle brfites, we should know what makes us indians indulge in self-flagellation..

is it to disarm and disable the enemy from distributing propaganda that we have ourselves created?

we should give some serious thought to the modus operandi of the self-flagellating indian.

let us take for ex: the form of the self-flagellation in the same mould of jln's plebiscite request to the un... which does empower the enemy in some way.. however, the un plebiscite proposition includes that the enemy take certain backward steps as well - such as tsp vacating j&k before any such procedure..

so could there be some defensive offensive strategy in such fierce whipping of oneself... ? :roll:
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by KLNMurthy »

Gus wrote:It could very well be that prince etc actually believe in this hindu terror crap because that's the filtered opinion they get and they can't think outside of that. Hindu terror is now an accepted fact with these people and the majority of English media.
Rahul was simply parroting an old thesis from Jawaharlal Nehru, which has been standard received wisdom in certain section of intellectuals. He himself doesn't have the intellectual capacity to develop a considered opinion of the matter.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Prem wrote: SNIP.........

They are still playing the old game but no Gandhi to be eliminated to shine the fortune of royal Gastopodas of Dilli.
CT Are they setting up RG for that role?
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

I seriously wonder whether Rahul G is getting warped information from his closest circle of advisors within the party.There is a huge difference in his political upbringing and that of his father Rajiv.Rajiv grew up in a household where his grandfather and then mother were PMs.The atmosphere at home within a hugely political family cannot have strong overturns of politics,I've seen this first hand and Rajiv would've learnt an enormous amount of statecraft by just "being there".Unfortunately and sadly for Rahul,his father,a reluctrant entrant into politics was assassinated and the safety of her children was paramount to his mother,who herself has been a very reluctrant entrant into politics,preferring Narasimha Rao first and now Dr.Singh to lead the country as PM,preferring to remain behind the scenes,the "eminence grise" of the Congress.

One cannot but admire Sonia G's courage as a human being,no matter if one disagrees with her party's style of politics.Here,as a woman of foreign origin,she has had to face acceptance first from her new family after marriage and after her own mother-we are told, was against the marriage.Her desire to preserve the family's political heritage,continued contribution to the country ,remembering the heavy price it has paid for it, as best as she can is laudable-as I said even if one disagrees with the style and substance of her politics.We are after all a democracy.Nevertheless,the psycophantic nature of Congress politics,nauseating in its race to be "close" to the power centre of the party,like a feudal court,in this case Queen Sonia and Crown Prince Rahul,both sheilds them from the larger world ouside and distances them from the public at large,with only interpretations of the popular mood fed to them in cleverly "sized and spiced" morsels for digestion.

Rahul Gandhi is therefore is a creature of his information boundary,which in turn has been determined by his advisers and Congress cronies.It will be very difficult for him to discover the "true India" as his illustrious grandmother did,for she was a creature of the freedom struggle where her father spent 11 years in British.It is therefore very easy for him to truly and mistakenly believe that so-called "Hindu terror" is the greatest threat to the nation.His statements refelct both naievety and ignorance of history.A pity.One hopes that from his clarifications,he has realised that a vast section of the country is unhappy with his statements and dspite the Don "Digvijay" Quixote and accompanying Sancho Panzas in his party,reallity will set in as he embarks upon his travels to the Tamil countryside,where India's foremost scamster and his tribe remain unrepentant and defiant of the greatest looting in India's independent history.What will he say about it?
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

>>parrotting an old thesis from Jawaharlal Nehru, which has been standard received wisdom in certain section of intellectuals.

Having read quite a bit of what he's written, I don't think Nehru said anything ridiculous like this. Please source.

This idiocy is of personal vintage from Congress' "Senior" Parliamentarian. What is most worrying is not that he holds such views, but that he holds them in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Suggests a terribly blinkered mindset, bordering on the brainwashed.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Raja Ram »

Philip,

I fully agree to the post that you have made. It is indeed not about them as persons, one is unhappy about, but the complete lack of understanding of ground realities, despite well publicised PR drills of meeting the people and encouraging this kind of sycophancy that has brought so much ruin in a once great nationalist movement called Congress.

India needs a strong and nationalistic Congress as much as it needs a strong rightist and nationalistic counter point like BJP. It is another matter that neither are playing their part. It will revive the fractional kichidi of the Third Front. India cannot afford the drift once again.

I only hope that the some of the more nationalistic minded congress men start asserting themselves in the party and force these leaders from the family to take a more nationalistic view of things. Such people must be there.

JEM,

JLN had view of Hinduism that can best be described as mixed. From what we read from his Discovery of India, he is indeed fascinated by the philosophical richness of Hinduism and the liberal humanist world view, he also is revolted into the aspects of faith, practice of a Hindu way of life in practical terms. He often wrongly concludes these to be backward. He also has gone on record to say that the epitome of Indian thought is Budhism and not Hinduism. From a political perspective, he has always been a votary of Gandhian view of being extra accommodative to "progressive" minorities of Islam and Christianity and seek enormous sensitivity and accommodation to their interests from the majority community.

Sardar Patel on the other hand, had a far more pragmatic and correct view of things. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Mecca Masjid blast accused also linked to Samjhauta train attack: NIA - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z18kWG3iKz

Besides the earlier US claim that LeT financier Arif Qasmani was involved in Samjhauta, we also have more recent testimony from Headley's wife.

Sad to see national institutions being subverted in this way to provide comfort to the enemy.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

^ Panchjanya Editorial here

http://www.panchjanya.com/dynamic/modul ... 409&page=4

Soch-Samajh Kar Bolo Rahul

Rough Translation

"Rahul Gandhi's statement to Timothy Roemer that "Hindu extremism is the biggest challenge before India" has surprised people. It is clear from his statements that he is not only completely uninformed about India's background and history (which stands ) on Hindutva, he has no understanding of nationalism either. How can Hinduism, which gave the message of global humanity through the wishes of "Sarve bhavantu sukhinah (let everyone be happy)", and conceptualized global brotherhood, be extremist?

...

Recently a Muslim MP from Congress remarked that India is secular because Hindus are in majority. Strength of Hinduism guarantees secularism because Hindu philosophy is kind and nonviolent. Our history provides evidence that Christian/Islamic terrorism has emerged wherever Hinduism has weakened.

...

P. Chidambaram has also also talked about "Saffron terrorism". He does not know that he has insulted sanatan Hindu culture because saffron is the color of sacrifice (tyag, balidaan), renunciation (vairagya), valor (viratva) and worship (yagya). He has linked these concepts to the heinous acts of terrorism and used them to defend forces which are threatening the integrity of the nation."
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Muppalla wrote:However, I agree with brihaspati's and your posts that something has to be done in response. I don't know how and who should.
For starters, use some brains and muscles and create an effective English & non-English TV channels that will cater to the urban population. Not having such channels is like not turning up for ones the Wimbeldon finals match. The match gets forfeited; the opponent wins.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by archan »

abhishek_sharma wrote:^ Panchjanya Editorial here

http://www.panchjanya.com/dynamic/modul ... 409&page=4

Soch-Samajh Kar Bolo Rahul

Rough Translation

"Rahul Gandhi's statement to Timothy Roemer that "Hindu extremism is the biggest challenge before India" has surprised people. It is clear from his statements that he is not only completely uninformed about India's background and history (which stands ) on Hindutva, he has no understanding of nationalism either.
I am afraid this is an incorrect assessment of the man. Like Rudradev said, this analysis is false and can do much damage. The statement, the occasion/environment in which they were made, and the intentions, are pretty clear to anyone who wants to see things for what they are.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Should we not have a thread on Hindu Terror? Now that two prominent INC members have talked about it. One, Rahul, has taken the pains to talk to American Ambassador :-)

Meanwhile.....WSJ informs some of its readers on the happenings. What Terrorizes India?


The consensus across many analysts is clearly this....Rahul's message to the American Ambassador actually hurts India - essentially against National Interests. BRF members have been banned for less serious charges. If only India was run as tight as BRF......

part of the opinion piece.
To concur with this view is not to sympathize with Hindu nationalism. Indeed, at a superficial level radical Islam and Hindu nationalism have much in common. Both represent a kind of religious tribalism marked by a sense of victimhood and deep suspicion of outsiders. Both radical Islamists and Hindu nationalists are prone to wild conspiracy theories—that the 9/11 terrorist attacks were planned by the U.S. government, or that Mr. Gandhi, whose mother, Congress President Sonia Gandhi, is Italian by birth, represents a secret Vatican plot to take over India. Both share a deep fascination with Western technology, and an aversion to Western culture. Both place group identity above individual rights.

But the similarities end there. Simply put, the notion that the radical Hindu threat to India is comparable to that posed by radical Islam is ludicrous. First there's the question of scale. Alleged Hindu terrorists—not one of whom has been convicted—are accused of bomb blasts in 2007 and 2008 in Andhra Pradesh, Rajasthan and Maharashtra that killed 17 people. According to the South Asia Terrorism Portal, the toll in India from about two dozen radical Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11 stands at more than 950 dead and many hundreds more injured.

The principal Hindu groups accused of the bombings—Abhinav Bharat and the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti—are ramshackle outfits with few members and scant popular support. The Lashkar-e-Taiba, by contrast, is part of a powerful international network and has close links with both al Qaeda and Pakistan's notorious military intelligence agency, Inter-Services Intelligence. Despite international pressure following the group's 2001 assault on India's parliament and the Mumbai attacks, Islamabad has been loath to move against Lashkar-e-Taiba. In part this is because the group enjoys popular backing in Pakistan's religion-drenched society.

Nor can radical Hinduism—such as it is—claim anything approaching the ambition or ideological rigor of radical Islam. From Morocco to Mindanao, radical Islamists are motivated by the desire to replace man's law with God's law by ordering every aspect of society and the state by the medieval dictates of Shariah law. In ideologues such as the Egyptian Sayyid Qutb (1906-66) and the Pakistani Abul Ala Maududi (1903-79), they find religious justification for terrorism. In Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini, they see the possibility of making their dream a reality. In the oil rich kingdoms of the Middle East, they find deep pockets to tap. None of these is true of Hindu groups. The nature of Hindu society—diffuse, lacking a binding tradition and largely comfortable with modernity—makes the emergence of a Hindu equivalent of the Lashkar-e-Taiba difficult to imagine.

In the end, Mr. Gandhi deserves to be criticized not merely because he's wrong, but because his apparent naiveté hurts India. His comment to Mr. Roemer directly undercut one of New Delhi's main foreign policy objectives—to get the international community to take the threat from Pakistan-based terrorist groups more seriously. More broadly, Mr. Gandhi and his party encourage precisely the kind of conspiratorial mindset and culture of grievance among a section of Indian Muslims that they ought to be working to end.

Finally, they raise the uncomfortable prospect of India being led by a man out of touch with the dominant ethos of the country he seeks to lead, one that may be flawed but remains essentially liberal, humane and resistant to any kind of radicalism. In the long run, it's this ignorance, not a handful of Hindu zealots, that poses the greater threat to India.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by archan »

Simply put, the notion that the radical Hindu threat to India is comparable to that posed by radical Islam is ludicrous
Comparable? I thought he said it is a bigger threat.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Anujan »

The debate between "Islamic" and "Hindu" terrorism is a distraction. Nobody talks about the elephant in the room, which is Pakistani terrorism.

Pakistani terrorism is No 1 problem for India.

I question the motives of politicians who subtly try to distract Indians from this central fact. Instead tying us up in knots debating whether Hindu terrorism exists or whether some terrorism is Islamic.

99% of mass casualty attacks have been Pakistani terrorism. Period. And it is nothing new, it stretches back to years and years and years. I am yet to see a clear articulation from Rahul baba or Diggy raja about a clear statement on why Pakistani terrorism is unacceptable.

Instead they are playing politics pure and simple, attempting to fertilize votebank politics with Indian blood.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by munna »

SwamyG wrote:For starters, use some brains and muscles and create an effective English & non-English TV channels that will cater to the urban population. Not having such channels is like not turning up for ones the Wimbeldon finals match. The match gets forfeited; the opponent wins.
Well SwamyG a lot of posters here think that bhajapa is a party of clueless wonders awho do not get even simplest of things. Here is something for you to take home

Myth # : They did not create effective English & non-English TV channels that will cater to the urban population

Ans # : Bhajapa created and nurtured a generation of mediamen like Prabhu Chawla and Rajat Sharma. They had their channels and media outlets but all jumped ship in the time frame of 2005-6. In fact Rajat Sharma was systematically reduced to being a peddler of cheap videos on his channel as he refused to join the new-media (read radia media).

Also a large section of establishment that came to bhajapa jumped ship and went over to the other side when faced with a new successor to Vajpayee. The reason being people were uncomfortable with "non-dynastic" succession plan as it ensured a weak continuity of patronage. Members of the establishment in 1999-2004 are still powerful today and Radia tapes confirm it! bhajapa looks idiotic because our system is patronage and dynasty driven and not ideology driven. For the so called "C" system to come into being the polity needs pivots and there are none as of now. Individuals are not good enough because they have a shelve life of 20-30 years, dynastic institutions are needed no more no less.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Sanku »

^^^^

I have stopped getting into that debate, but this sort of rekindled memories. Zee TV was also a Sangh driven enterprise till it jumped ship, it now tries its hand at being a new mullah more than others.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Myth # : They did not create effective English & non-English TV channels that will cater to the urban population

Ans # : Bhajapa created and nurtured a generation of mediamen like Prabhu Chawla and Rajat Sharma. They had their channels and media outlets but all jumped ship in the time frame of 2005-6. In fact Rajat Sharma was systematically reduced to being a peddler of cheap videos on his channel as he refused to join the new-media (read radia media).
So it is like actually turning up to the Wimbeldon's finals to play one's match; but then retiring hurt half way because the going got tough. No excuse.

It is just not enough to create a handful of mediamen. It is essential to create a sustainable network that looks out for the country. I believe when I see a network similar to Fox News channel for say 5 years. Sad indeed when one has to provide Faux News as an example. What to do onlee. India needs a truly fair and balanced network; which will look out for pluralism, harmony, peace and nationalistic causes; and mixes traditional and progressive values well. There is a need waiting to be filled.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

munna wrote:
SwamyG wrote:For starters, use some brains and muscles and create an effective English & non-English TV channels that will cater to the urban population. Not having such channels is like not turning up for ones the Wimbeldon finals match. The match gets forfeited; the opponent wins.
Well SwamyG a lot of posters here think that bhajapa is a party of clueless wonders awho do not get even simplest of things. Here is something for you to take home

Myth # : They did not create effective English & non-English TV channels that will cater to the urban population

Ans # : Bhajapa created and nurtured a generation of mediamen like Prabhu Chawla and Rajat Sharma. They had their channels and media outlets but all jumped ship in the time frame of 2005-6. In fact Rajat Sharma was systematically reduced to being a peddler of cheap videos on his channel as he refused to join the new-media (read radia media).

Also a large section of establishment that came to bhajapa jumped ship and went over to the other side when faced with a new successor to Vajpayee. The reason being people were uncomfortable with "non-dynastic" succession plan as it ensured a weak continuity of patronage. Members of the establishment in 1999-2004 are still powerful today and Radia tapes confirm it! bhajapa looks idiotic because our system is patronage and dynasty driven and not ideology driven. For the so called "C" system to come into being the polity needs pivots and there are none as of now. Individuals are not good enough because they have a shelve life of 20-30 years, dynastic institutions are needed no more no less.
Regarding Prabhu Chawla, AajTak etc, though they tried a centristic approach they are considered as Sanghi and that is is the sheer dominance of jholawaalas.

Regarding "C" system you are absolutely right. That is the tension to kill it fast and furious. In case of a power loss there may not be an oppotunity if not completely wiped off.

Sanku wrote:I have stopped getting into that debate, but this sort of rekindled memories. Zee TV was also a Sangh driven enterprise till it jumped ship, it now tries its hand at being a new mullah more than others.
It is still Sangh driven. Especially if u watch Marathi and Telugu versions of Zee news channels. Pretty amazing stuff they have. They have recently shown a series in which they even showed some archeological evidence of Puspak vimaan's hanger and landing place in Sri Lanka to airlift Ramji after winning the war against Ravan.
vera_k
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Congress more dangerous than Pak's terrorism

The discourse is going to get ugly. There's probably a good market for terrorism insurance in India, now that many governments are busy fighting political battles.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by munna »

SwamyG wrote:So it is like actually turning up to the Wimbeldon's finals to play one's match; but then retiring hurt half way because the going got tough. No excuse.
No, nien, nada, nyet.. it is like having your racket forcibly snatched from you and being denied a replacement. Let me make it clear once again its not that neo-establishment created was unsustainable or was destroyed. It jumped ships lock, stock and barrel. That is people switched sides, entirely.
SwamyG wrote:It is just not enough to create a handful of mediamen. It is essential to create a sustainable network that looks out for the country. I believe when I see a network similar to Fox News channel for say 5 years. Sad indeed when one has to provide Faux News as an example. What to do onlee.
They did create sustainable networks but they all slipped out of control. Even vanguards of hindutva like Dainik Jagran and Bhaskar turned p-secs. Initially that is between 2004-09 the idea was that media loss was due to loss of power and patronage at the centre. That is media was just yet another his master's voice. However the 2009 elections actually saw media brokering power and becoming a power player. Radia tapes and now wikileaks is exposing this nexus for all to see.
Last edited by munna on 21 Dec 2010 23:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

BJP thinks that Jinnah was secular and now this! The Indian public has very few real options. Rahul Gandhi has been spewing nonsense as well! What are we left with - Mayawati/Laloo/Jayalalitha?
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Is probably correct, but they need more data from Know Your India thread to show it.
Last edited by vera_k on 21 Dec 2010 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by munna »

Vivek K wrote:BJP thinks that Jinnah was secular and now this! The Indian public has very few real options. Rahul Gandhi has been spewing nonsense as well! What are we left with - Mayawati/Laloo/Jayalalitha?
Actually this is the problem of dynastic politics whereby we equate a leader's voice as being the party policy. It works like that in all other parties but not in BJP and CPM. Yes LKA called Jinnah secular and maybe JS too but that is not party position, regards.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Munna bhai - I understand your post however, from a nationalist stand point - the two parties look like different faces of the same coin. BJP's promise of abrogation of article 370 and aar paar ki ladayi and the congress's appeasement of muslims leads the country to the same square. Congress will isolate itself even further by pandering to the minority community. The BJP may gain some in the short term but how does that help India in real terms?
Till we have a straight talking leader we are stuck with RA and LKA!
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

:) :) This is how equal=equal arguments start. When there is a 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 crore scandal, we should say what the difference, BJP's president took one Lakh rupees, Yeddi has given a 10 crore favor to his son. Both as same.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by CRamS »

Anujan wrote:The debate between "Islamic" and "Hindu" terrorism is a distraction. Nobody talks about the elephant in the room, which is Pakistani terrorism.

Pakistani terrorism is No 1 problem for India.

I question the motives of politicians who subtly try to distract Indians from this central fact. Instead tying us up in knots debating whether Hindu terrorism exists or whether some terrorism is Islamic.

99% of mass casualty attacks have been Pakistani terrorism. Period. And it is nothing new, it stretches back to years and years and years. I am yet to see a clear articulation from Rahul baba or Diggy raja about a clear statement on why Pakistani terrorism is unacceptable.

Instead they are playing politics pure and simple, attempting to fertilize votebank politics with Indian blood.
Let me chime in with my piskology to explain this phenomenon: its a manifestation of Hindu elite cowardice. Please note I am not saying Hindu cowardice.

As you pointed out, India has been bludgeoned with TSP terror. The number of lives lost, the bandwidth India spends in warding off TSP is humongous. TSP has managed to punch above its weight, and the equal equal is rubbing salt to India's wound. Look at the audacity, even after Mumbai, facing no retaliation, TSP demands that India talk Kashmir.

Now, even the most sekoooolar of sekooolar cannot help but be furious at TSP (although they may not show it). I am of course not refering to traitors like A.G. Noorani, ARoy, Pakaj Mishra, Bakara etc who have no conscience for India. But for the rest of the secular elite, especially the Hindu elite, the impotence in not being able to do anything results in a sort of reverse machismo. The impulse is to turn against your own. It gives these cowards a sense that they are doing something after being hit profusely by TSP. By blaming your own, there is this self satisfaction that you don't have to fight back, i.e., the malaise is within.

Also, hitting out at your own gives you enormous brownie points with the whites. How many op-ed in the NYT or WP or Economist have we seen from the elqouent nationalist counterparts to Pankaj Mishra & Arundathi Roy? So even if there is a Hindu elite who wants to talk about the real problem with whites like Ambassador Roemer, he/she is not likely to get much attention because TSP is their lover boy, but pummel your own, wallah, you are music to their ears, it justifies the white distinction between bad terrorists (so called Al Queda) and good terrorists (TSPA/ISI/LeT). So you get the drift. This is intellectual cowardice. When someone like me has the guts to challenge white elites, either they ignore me, or dismiss me as a radical.

There may be a psychological term to succintly describe this phenomenon of turning on your own when confronted with an external enemy who has overpowered you. Kind of like in cricket, when you win, all darwback gets hidden, but when you get pummelled as we saw recently in Centurion, SA, the blame game begins :-). But at least cricket is a game, but the game with TSP is the preservation of the idea of India itself. And Hindu elites are too cowardly to even play the game lest they get pummelled more.
Last edited by CRamS on 21 Dec 2010 23:38, edited 1 time in total.
Vivek K
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Thanks for your insight Muppalla. :) :) I agree with you that most BJP supporters find it very difficult to swallow BJP's problems. :(( However, if you read the post without colored glasses you may find a different stroke!!
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by Muppalla »

Vivek K wrote:Thanks for your insight Muppalla.
You are welcome.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by munna »

Muppalla wrote::) :) This is how equal=equal arguments start. When there is a 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 crore scandal, we should say what the difference, BJP's president took one Lakh rupees, Yeddi has given a 10 crore favor to his son. Both as same.
Excellent retort but I feel Vivek K sir's argument is slightly more nuanced in that he is doing a reverse equalitis. However reverting to the topic at hand Wikileaks has suddenly halted the silent "Krystallnacht" of nationalists in the establishment and society. Now it has become a noisy "krystallnacht" and at the same time Israel's embassy has dealt diggy bhai a choke slam on his perverse distortion of history. Till now we could only despair or concoct chankian spin stories regarding our surrender at SES or denial of justice after 26/11. The recent expose has bared the hand of the assassin and now it is a much fairer game.
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Getting back to wikipee, and actual alleged quotes from RG and Roemer: there is one part that is significantly damaging to both US interests and RG/Congress interests.
Over the past four years, he was an elusive contact, but he could be interested in reaching out to the United States, given a thoughtful, politically sensitive and strategic approach on our part. We will seek other opportunities to engage with him and with other promising young members of the new generation of parliamentarians.
This implies that US is keen to cultivate him and encourage him to "reach out to the US" for US strategic interests. How does it then pan out for the impression of Indian Muslims, and the Muslim Ummah itself? Will the Indian Muslim then see RG as their hope in the future? I really dont know where elite Americans study their history and sociology!
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Re: Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

munna wrote: They did create sustainable networks but they all slipped out of control.
Then they really did not create a sustainable entity. One can admit they have made attempts that is all.
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