Wikileaks Diplomatic Cable Dump - News and Discussion

James B · Post by **James B** » 29 Nov 2010 14:25

^^Saar its just 250 cables so far in the wikileaks website. There is still a mountain of documents to be released. Game has just begun.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 29 Nov 2010 14:49

In all this, gentle rakshaks, please note that these leaks are coming from the US of A. The mighty, one and only superpower, with huge budgets for espionage, national security and the most sophisticated technology.

Just imagine if a small portion of this level of information is leaked from India, there will be an outpouring of condemnation on the inefficient and corrupt Indian system.

In our usual hyper self critical ways, we sometimes do not see that even the most powerful nation on earth is not totally fool proof.

I am sure shivji will have his own take on this

. Just thought I should point this fact out. We are witnessing one of the biggest compromises of national security here.

Let us see what else turns up. So far nothing new, but there are some interesting things that one can deduce. More on that later.

amit · Post by **amit** » 29 Nov 2010 15:18

Raja Ram wrote:I am sure shivji will have his own take on this . Just thought I should point this fact out. We are witnessing one of the biggest compromises of national security here.

Let us see what else turns up. So far nothing new, but there are some interesting things that one can deduce. More on that later.

Raja Ram ji,

That assumes that these "leaks" don't have the tacit blessing of the US.

I really find it hard to believe that the folks who matter couldn't have put Julian Assange and The Sunshine Press out of business if they really wanted to.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 29 Nov 2010 15:28

amit,

yes it is a possibility that these leaks were being engineered by the USG. But if we look at the extent of information, the time span, the coverage of nations etc., one needs to assign a lesser probability for this possibility.

At least, I am not able to see the motive for a leak of such a large scale. What could be the motive(s) for this? After all, the USG has reacted in such a scale and burning up diplomatic channels to cap the fall out.

That is why, I tend to believe that a compromise has happened. It is also possible that once it has happened, the USG could be trying to cap the fall out - by all means possible.

The prelude has been the systematic attempts to discredit the leaker Assange and get him behind bars. I guess soon he will file for asylum in China or North Korea or Cuba!!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 29 Nov 2010 15:30

Indeed RR - either it's that or one of the most monumental, if not the most, information warfare campaigns in history. I wouldn't put it past Uncle Sham

...

Awesome stuff though. Waiting to see the stuff on India and Pak. Bloody hell, was waiting last nite like it was the World Cup Cricket Finals... but the drips so far have been far from satisfactory

Assange is either a man with cojones the size of Jupiter, or the patsy of the millennium.

Added later: my call is that it is a "genuine" leak.

amit · Post by **amit** » 29 Nov 2010 15:33

Raja Ram,

Of course you're probably right on this. But what intrigues me is that this multiple tranches of leaks. It happens one time, its lack of oversight, it happens again, it's carelessness. It happens a multiple number of times without anyone plugging the hole?

I mean someone or entity within the USG must be periodically leaking all these millions of pages of documents. And the USG can do diddly squat? Sure taking Assange out of circulation would help but what about the holes from which these leaks are coming from that's the bigger problem. Which leads the conspiracy theorist within me to try and think out of the box!

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 29 Nov 2010 15:34

saket wrote:~~Manmohan Singh referred to as "Mr Slave" by Delhi US embassy staff http://twitter.com/IndiaWikiLeaks~~

As someone said above, it's easy to plant disinformation in this torrent. This twit has SG plastered all over the page and repeats the "Mr. Slave" pejorative. Hardly credible and bad propaganda.

The "Mr. Slave" moniker does not sound like American idiom. If someone at the USE did say something in that vein, I suspect they would have used more common terms.

I'm no supporter of SG but let's not get caught up in this "There's got to be something damning against MMS dammit!" spiral.

amit · Post by **amit** » 29 Nov 2010 15:35

JE Menon wrote:Added later: my call is that it is a "genuine" leak.

JEM,

My point is "genuine leak" by whom?

I'm sure the documents are authentic but who's waving them?

Anyway such speculation is for later. As you said let's wait with baited breadth to see what the leaks have on our warm and fuzzy western neighbor.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 29 Nov 2010 15:39

Best to wait and see... I would not be surprised by such usages, although "Mr Slave" is a bit too tacky. Sounds too convenient if you know what I mean. Given the "Batman/Robin" analogy for Putin/Medvedev...

What is surprising to me is King Abdullah's exchange with Mottaki and the "deadline". Very interesting. Did not expect the Saudis to get that much "in your face" with the Iranians directly.

Damn, this thread is moving too fast...above comments in response to Cosmo

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 29 Nov 2010 15:41

amit,

Genuine leak by whom, is a good question. That is something that I dont think we will know anytime soon.

One more point to consider, the leaks are covering "friends" and "foes" alike. Granted there are no friends or foes on a permanent basis, but still should this have been a USG engineered one, it would have taken care not to compromise its national interests with allies at least.

If this has been a result of a leak engineered and then planted through the wikeleaks by a foreign power, it is an even bigger problem for the super power USA.

Now, just think outside the box for a minute along those lines too...while you are thinking outside the box

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Nov 2010 15:46

The official claim is that these leaks have been made by a 22 year old Intelligence Analyst. How come that a 22 year old guy was an Analyst with such wide access to information ? How could he have by-passed security measures ? He could never have obtained clearances at this level at that age.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Nov 2010 15:51

JE Menon wrote:What is surprising to me is King Abdullah's exchange with Mottaki and the "deadline". Very interesting. Did not expect the Saudis to get that much "in your face" with the Iranians directly.

That puts our Purelanders in much discomfort. How come that Pakistan is supporting the Iranian programme that their benefactor from the Desertlands wants to destroy ? How will they explain to the Abduls that the US was anti-Muslim because of its anti-Iran policy when the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques himself wants to bomb Iranian reactors ?

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 29 Nov 2010 15:54

SSridhar,
That official claim is incredible isn't it. That is why it sets me thinking...has this been done by a foriegn intelligence agency of a powerful country? and then got the whole thing leaked through a decoy to something like wikeleaks? If so, as JEM says it could be the most fantastic information and psychological warfare unleashed to bring down the US influence further in a more rapid manner and reconstruct a new order.

On the information released so far, the Karzai one is interesting. "Paranoid and insecure" they claim he is. But with allies like the US and NATO and their inability to do anything with pakistan, can he afford to be anything else?

Going by what the USG thinks of him, he is very justified in being paranoid and insecure. To be otherwise is being foolhardy and reckless isn't it?

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 29 Nov 2010 15:55

SSridhar,

Can't pakis take the message to the Abduls with the spin that shias are kufr? that will keep them in sync with their benefactor and custodian of the two holy places wouldn't it?

JEM,
Interesting to note the distinction that Abdullah maintains of the Iranians as Persians and themselves as Arabs. Something that you have been pointed out long back in this forum. Also, if Iranians are Persians what are these Pakistanis

?

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 29 Nov 2010 16:02

Could this be the first casualty of wiki leaks?

Iran nuclear scientist 'killed in bomb attack'

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Nov 2010 16:04

Raja Ram wrote:On the information released so far, the Karzai one is interesting. "Paranoid and insecure" they claim he is. But with allies like the US and NATO and their inability to do anything with pakistan, can he afford to be anything else?

Going by what the USG thinks of him, he is very justified in being paranoid and insecure. To be otherwise is being foolhardy and reckless isn't it?

Absolutely.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Nov 2010 16:05

Till now my favorites:

Sheikh bin Zayed of Abu Dhabi: "a near term conventional war with Iran is clearly preferable to the long term consequences of a nuclear armed Iran."

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to Iranian FM Mottaki: challenged by the King on Iranian meddling in Hamas affairs, Mottaki apparently protested that "these are Muslims." "No, Arabs" countered the King, "You as Persians have no business meddling in Arab matters." The King said the Iranians wanted to improve relations and that he responded by giving Mottaki an ultimatum. "I will give you one year" (to improve ties), "after that, it will be the end."

During a meeting of Iran's Supreme National Security Council, an enraged Revolutionary Guard Chief of Staff Mohammed Ali Jafari allegedly got into a heated argument with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad: and slapped him in the face because the generally conservative president had, surprisingly, advocated freedom of the press.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Nov 2010 16:13

Raja Ram wrote:Can't pakis take the message to the Abduls with the spin that shias are kufr? that will keep them in sync with their benefactor and custodian of the two holy places wouldn't it?

They will not be able to do that openly as the Pakistani Shi'a will not let that happen. Besides, the brave Pakistani Sunni mard had been in bed with the kafir Iranian Shia in the nuke venture all along. Of course, the Abduls can be made to believe anything, like they have won all the wars against India, like 26/11 is India attacking herself to spite Pakistan etc.

JEM,
Interesting to note the distinction that Abdullah maintains of the Iranians as Persians and themselves as Arabs. Something that you have been pointed out long back in this forum. Also, if Iranians are Persians what are these Pakistanis ?

The Saudis have been very sore with the Americans who always refer to Gulf as 'Persian Gulf'. During the Gulf War, when the relationship between Iran and KSA was very strained, the Saudis went to enormous extent to edit CNN broadcasts to blank out every reference to Persian Gulf.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Nov 2010 16:15

Raja Ram wrote:On the information released so far, the Karzai one is interesting. "Paranoid and insecure" they claim he is. But with allies like the US and NATO and their inability to do anything with pakistan, can he afford to be anything else?

Going by what the USG thinks of him, he is very justified in being paranoid and insecure. To be otherwise is being foolhardy and reckless isn't it?

I don't know if the source was these WikiLeaks, but there have been several stories in Western newspapers about Karzai's state of mind, and they called him "paranoid and insecure" too.

This information, at least, is not new, but was in the public domain earlier also, which can mean, either people have been availing of WikiLeaks information earlier on as well, somebody has been talking to the press anyway, and this someone may have been encouraged to come out with all the documents fully exploiting the security weakness around these documents.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 29 Nov 2010 16:20

Damning WikiLeaks secrets threaten Pak-Saudi relationship

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 29 Nov 2010 16:42

India in the dump so far...

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/where-does-i ... ml?from=tn

List of India-related documents from the first batch of 226 documents released by WikiLeaks
(India-specific portions highlighted in bold)
- To avoid hurting Pakistan, Turkey didn't invite India
- Bahrain's King Hamad on India's role in Afghanistan
- UN Security Council expansion and India
- Indo-Pak relations and Musharraf
- Pakistan's obsession with India
- India critical of sanctions on Iran
- Saudi Arabia expanding relations with India
- 'Little to fear about India having nuclear weapons'
- Iran could follow India's path in going nuclear
- Differing opinions of US and India
- India benefitting from international security
- Fissile Material Cutoff Treaty and India
- Nuclear facility safeguards in India
- Israel-India strategic partnership
- Non-proliferation and India
- Indo-US trade relations and foreign aid
- Sanctions and German business interests in India
- Some Indian-origin people supplying equipment to Iran
- Germany on US-EU position towards India
- Israeli relations with India
- Reliance Industries oil and gas exploration
- US-Indian economic cooperation and Indo-Pak relations

bart · Post by **bart** » 29 Nov 2010 16:45

SSridhar wrote:Damning WikiLeaks secrets threaten Pak-Saudi relationship

That is the funniest thing I have read in a while. It comes from the Pakmedia, who need to write such articles to assuage their egos, but essentially, but that makes as much sense as saying a person saying 'bad dog' to their canine pet is likely to 'threaten master-dog relationship'.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 29 Nov 2010 16:47

Amit,

Probably some chappie at Foggy Bottom, if not Manning... It is not clear to me whether this is also from Manning or not. But let's wait and see...The whole thing is almost surreal

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 29 Nov 2010 16:57

>>JEM,
>>Interesting to note the distinction that Abdullah maintains of the Iranians as Persians and themselves as Arabs. Something that you have been pointed out long back in this forum. Also, if Iranians are Persians what are these Pakistanis

?

Indeed, I've been beating this drum on BR for years... It is of course nothing new. Those who are running around in this region know the situation very well. Same with the Turks/Arabs by the way. It's probably even worse, but the Arab side swallows quietly because Turkey is more shooted-booted TFTA than them, and there is no real "religious" influence from Turkey. The Arabs are not going to let Iran out-mullah them.

About the "Persian Gulf" thing, both sides are damned sensitive about it. The Gulf countries refer to the GCC as the Arab Gulf Co-operation Council... pisses of the Iranians no end. Hard for us to take sides on this one. I think we maintain a "studied" silence... going with just plain "Gulf" or "Gelf" as the case may be

What are these Pakistanis? Why Turkic Afghans by way of Ghazni and Ghori of course and Persians by way of Nusrat Bhutto

and Arab by way of the multitude of descendants of the Quraysh. Lump it together and we may even call them Central Asian. In a pinch, they may even refer to themselves as European in view of TFTAs - or even better - Aryan. Don't forget they are the inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilisation. We STOLE the name India from them, the natural rulers of all they survey from the Khyber in the west to Kamboja in the east.

Allow me now, please, to retreat to a suitably dark, dank and windowless corner. I'm sure I have some tiny idols in my pocket which I can place there before assuming the "cower" position to worship appropriately.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 29 Nov 2010 17:05

Just another thought.....for an idle mind become hyeractive

Perhaps, the USG was working on the Wikeleak guys for a while to stop this from coming out. This limited release seems to be a negotiating tactic. USG daring them to do so and Wikeleaks responding with slow lifting of the seven veils seduction!

Now that this first lift is done, maybe they will quickly agree on an edited version release. Got to see how this plays out.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 29 Nov 2010 17:08

JE Menon wrote:>>JEM,
What are these Pakistanis? Why Turkic Afghans by way of Ghazni and Ghori of course and Persians by way of Nusrat Bhutto and Arab by way of the multitude of descendants of the Quraysh. Lump it together and we may even call them Central Asian. In a pinch, they may even refer to themselves as European in view of TFTAs - or even better - Aryan. Don't forget they are the inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilisation. We STOLE the name India from them, the natural rulers of all they survey from the Khyber in the west to Kamboja in the east.

Allow me now, please, to retreat to a suitably dark, dank and windowless corner. I'm sure I have some tiny idols in my pocket which I can place there before assuming the "cower" position to worship appropriately.

In short JEM, for King Abdullah, the pakis are either sons of unknown and many fathers or Hindus trying to be Moslems

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Nov 2010 17:16

Chackogate: See what I found

Wikileaks Cablegate: Iran saw Pakistan as a nuclear-weapons competitor says Lavrov

Sudip · Post by **Sudip** » 29 Nov 2010 17:18

- Some Indian-origin people supplying equipment to Iran

This is the website of the INSULTEC company run by indian origin brits.

http://www.insultec.com/

The website seems very rudimentary. The cable is dated 2009. I wonder how much of it is active now. Could it be shia minority indians?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 29 Nov 2010 17:42

frontierindia website down?

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 29 Nov 2010 17:53

NDTV claims to have found cables in which Hilory has been quoted to be saying that India is a self-appointed front-runner to the UNSC membership

---------

BTW can it only have a negative connotation? On seeing it the first time, I actually thought it was a good thing till I saw TimesNow calling it US's double games exposed

Could it also not mean that India's credentials & contributions to the UN has ensured that India can virtually select itself to the UNSC, something on lines of occasional news reports that state certain players select themselves into the team, by virtue of their form

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 29 Nov 2010 18:00

krishnan wrote:frontierindia website down?

Pls check. Its under technical upgrades. It works for now. You might experience some issues, but, check back.

Talking about wikileaks, it uses a Varnish server. We are also migrating to it because of the traffic volume.

Just wanted to explain technically.

Kamboja · Post by **Kamboja** » 29 Nov 2010 18:00

RajeshA wrote:Till now my favorites:
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to Iranian FM Mottaki: challenged by the King on Iranian meddling in Hamas affairs, Mottaki apparently protested that "these are Muslims." "No, Arabs" countered the King, "You as Persians have no business meddling in Arab matters." The King said the Iranians wanted to improve relations and that he responded by giving Mottaki an ultimatum. "I will give you one year" (to improve ties), "after that, it will be the end."

I wonder when this message will sink into the heads of the RAPEs in Pakiland. Regardless of all the blather about 'Ummah' and 'Muslims Brotherhood', the (Gulf) Arabs remain what they have always been -- backwards, provincial, tribal and utterly race-based in their worldview. To them, and to all other Muslims in the world except our delusional neighbors to the West, you are either an Arab, a Persian, a Turk, or a Hind, and the Pakis have always been, and always will be, Hind in the world.

Spin all the fairy tales about Arab/Persian/Afghan/Turkish/Central Asian ancestry you like Packees, you're stuck down here with us cowering SDREs in the totem pole of TFTAness

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 29 Nov 2010 18:01

SSridhar wrote:Damning WikiLeaks secrets threaten Pak-Saudi relationship

What's a strained relationship between two-taqiyya loving underwear friends that a few well-placed bucks and a barrellful of oil can not buy? Wait till the pakis start to claim hurt feelings and Mr. Duspercenti flies off for yet another well-timed hajj?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Nov 2010 18:02

JE Menon wrote:Amit,

Probably some chappie at Foggy Bottom, if not Manning... It is not clear to me whether this is also from Manning or not. But let's wait and see...The whole thing is almost surreal

One, two, three person(s) doing this is absolutely impossible. This is biggest BS being spread and it is also extremely funny and no one is questioning this "peddled lie".

It got to be a network of several folks and several departments. US government almost works as similar as in India except less number of employees and more computerization. The red tape and obstructionism to change are all same. The federal government has unions too. States are little different and efficient compared to federal stuff.

I will only tend to believe this is some ultra super refined spin being thrown on to the world. It could be a deliberate leak with no real substance. What is that is earth shattering in the Afghan war logs? Zero.

I assume the same regarding these zillion cables. If you see the releases so far though they are tip of an icebugh, all the mullah countries are being taken for a ride. They are only trying to shi-sunni confilct to the fore. The exposure so far is not the US's diplomacy but in the name of US's diplomacy they are exposing fissure of the mullah countires.

Assuming 250,000 is very large is itself a selling point that everyone already fell for. They recorded even the noice of urination. So the real substance ultimated when summarized may not cross more than a 1000 or say in exxaggerated fasion to 10,000 regular size paper. From that I am expection 75% will be about Iran. Other 10% will about sex and parties. 15% will have Pak and Afghan.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 29 Nov 2010 18:06

bart wrote:It comes from the Pakmedia

For the pakis, its "Pak-Saudi" relationship where "pak" is the operative partner. The Saudis have never adressed it as such. Its been a "saudi-pak" relationship. Hence the true inner feelings that come out from a saudi mind when dealing with a paki.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 29 Nov 2010 18:13

Sudip wrote:Could this be the first casualty of wiki leaks?

Iran nuclear scientist 'killed in bomb attack'

It says the attacker came in Pulsar motorcycle...is Bajaj exporting to Iran too?!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 29 Nov 2010 18:19

Qaddafi's Ukrainian nurse:

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2010 18:34

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/paki ... nts-fight/

Afghan President Hamid Karzai told a US envoy this year that the Pakistani government is forcing Taliban fighters to keep fighting coalition forces, according to a State Department cable released by WikiLeaks.

If true, the allegation would add evidence to claims Pakistan is intentionally prolonging the war effort to ensure that any future peace settlement results in an Afghan "satellite state" of Pakistan.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 29 Nov 2010 18:57

I doubt if you'll find any references to the "great game" in these diplomatic exchanges.

India and US have most probably entered into some "back channel" agreements which is why both govts are cautioning each other for the moment when it becomes public.

It always troubles me to imagine where the US is looking in india. These exchanges will give us an insight into this.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 29 Nov 2010 19:00

Folks,

I find the claim of a 22 yr old solider accessing these documents as plausible and even credible. I'm not saying it is the truth, but it is very plausible. To understand how, here's what you need to know.

If you are US govt official or a contractor, you can get clearance based on your posting or your job. Clearances go from "Confidential" to "Secret" to "Top Secret". This guy Manning had "Top Secret" clearance, which came with his posting. This is not extraordinary, because younger people who operate UAVs for example, have similar clearances.

Now, having a clearance does not mean you have access to all information. Apparently, clearances are associated with specific databases i.e. there is strong compartmentalization E.g. a UAV operator in Kandahar may only have access to Afghanistan or Air Force related stuff but may not see data related to North Korea.

Until a couple of years back, the State Department apparently was on a completely different IT system than the military and intel agencies. However, as part of the post-9/11 reforms, the DoS recently plugged its databases into the same network in an effort to simplify information sharing. However, some geniuses thought that there was no harm in letting counter terror related people getting access to all diplomatic material as long as they had the right clearance. In other words, if you have a "Top Secret" clearance for any wing of the government that deals with counter terror, you got access to all "Top Secret" State Dept material.

Apparently, this is what allowed a guy like Manning to be able to download State Dept stuff.