Remembering the 1971 war

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KrishnaK
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby KrishnaK » 14 Dec 2017 23:07

There's an interesting bit from Soviet Capabilities to Counter US Aircraft Carriers - CIA Intelligence Report, May 1972 that's relevant to how the US perceived the infamous naval standoff between the USS Enterprise CBG and the Soviet naval contingent in the Bay of Bengal 1971.

From page 32
The Soviet capability to counter US carrier forces in other areas is less impressive. When a US carrier task force deployed to the Indian Ocean in December 1971, for example, the USSR moved in additional naval forces. The US carrier force was in the area about 10 days, however, before the major elements of the Soviet reinforcements arrived. The augmented Soviet force included two missile cruisers, a missile destroyer, and two cruise missile submarines. It had a substantial anticarrier capability, including a total of 24 SS-N-3 launchers, but it was without air support for reconnaissance or strike missions.

The combat capability of a deployed Soviet force, however, might be less important than its presence. Third parties might not recognize the disparity in the forces, or might view the Soviet force as a fore-runner of a greater Soviet involvement.

Philip
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2017 19:48

Chatham House had an excellent analysis of how we swept into Dacca in such a short time.The three major thrusts put the Pakis in a real fix as they did not know which one was heading for Dacca.Bypassing strongpoints and local MB assistance saw E.Pak fall like France in WW2.The Tangail airdrop was a masterstroke and the rocketing of the Governor's house on Dec.14th at 11am by 4 MIG-21 FLs strafing and rocketing the dome forced the zGovernor to immediately resign! This speeded up the final surrender.Sam's famous words to Niazi...." My dear Abdullah, I am here...the game's up!"

ramana
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby ramana » 16 Dec 2017 05:50

That was another general Kalra.
The East Pakistan operations followed Operational art. West Pakistan operations were half hearted thrusts led by not do great. Individual unit actions were exemplary.

Do you have link to the Chatham House appraisal?

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 16 Dec 2017 05:58

The architect of victory on ground was Gen Sagat Singh. Against orders he thrust into East Pak with the objective of Dacca. To him goes the main credit of the victory. The govt honoured him with a Padma Vibushan and the army shafted him. Sam's concept was a half baked partial thrust that was designed to bring Pak to negotiating table.


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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby arun » 16 Dec 2017 09:56

X Posted from the Bangladesh News and Discussion thread.

Bangladeshi Liberation War Affairs Minister AKM Mozammel Haque thanks and acknowledges our Nations support for engineering Bangladesh’s liberation’s from the clutches of the Punjabi Military Dominated Deep State of the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan

Mozammel: 1971 war was never a war between India and Pakistan : The minister thanked India for its tremendous support that was extended by its people and government in 1971

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby arun » 16 Dec 2017 21:30

X Posted from the Terroristan thread.

Fittingly on Vijay Divas commemorating the surrender of 90,000 tall fair tight assed (TFTA) military personnel of the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan self proclaimed to have descended from martial Arab and Central Asian horsemen to Short Dark Rice Eating (SDRE) Indian Hindu’s comes news of India again bursting Pakistan’s cherished notions of martial superiority based on the specious theory that 1 TFTA Pakistani Mohammadden equals 10 SDRE Hindu’s.

At the Commonwealth Championship for the “Martial” sport of wrestling the Islamic Republic wins 6 bronze medals as against 10 Gold and 10 Silver by India.


Pakistani wrestlers bag six bronze medals in Commonwealth Championship


India clinch 10 gold, 10 silver medals at Commonwealth Wrestling Championship

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2017 14:08

AK which army did he command? I remember that there were 3 formations that put the screws on E.Pak.If I'm not mistaken was his thrust from the N-East?

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Manish_P » 19 Dec 2017 19:51

Philip wrote:Sam's famous words to Niazi...." My dear Abdullah, I am here...the game's up!"


Some source attribute those to Major-General Gandharv Nagra

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby anupmisra » 19 Dec 2017 22:37

Manish_P wrote:
Philip wrote:Sam's famous words to Niazi...." My dear Abdullah, I am here...the game's up!"


Some source attribute those to Major-General Gandharv Nagra


Most sources do. He (Nagra) had once been the Indian military attaché in Karachi and knew Niazi personally.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/1998/98dec2 ... /head7.htm
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 766660.ece

Here's a follow up from Genrail "Nazi" to the famous offer:

"MY DEAR Abdullah," wrote Major-General Gandharv Nagra in a simple message delivered to the Pakistan's Eastern Command chief in Dhaka on the morning of December 16, 1971, "I am here. The game is up." When Lieutenant-General Abdullah Niazi saw General Nagra walk through his office door three hours later, he delivered an equally succinct analysis of the causes of Pakistan's defeat: "Pindi mein baithe hue ... [expletive deleted] ne marwa diya [the ... sitting in Rawalpindi got us into this mess]."


Did that <bleeped> expletive include yahya khan's mom and sis?

Added later, the exact phrase was: “Pindi main bethe hue haramzadon ne marwadiya”. No "maa - behen".

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... nemy-camp/
Last edited by anupmisra on 19 Dec 2017 22:50, edited 2 times in total.

anupmisra
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby anupmisra » 19 Dec 2017 22:38

In a recent television interview, General Jacob asserted that the capture of Dhaka did not figure in the Field Marshal's offensive plans. Building on arguments he had earlier made in his 1999 book, Surrender at Dacca: Birth of a Nation, General Jacob argued that Field Marshal Manekshaw had wanted advancing troops to capture towns bypassed in the course of their lightning advance. Without dispute, such a decision would have cost India a decisive victory. India's triumph, General Jacob claimed, was in fact the result of the initiative of mid-ranking officers notably himself.


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 766660.ece

anupmisra
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby anupmisra » 19 Dec 2017 22:53

By the way, is it true that the surrender at Dacca is/was the only surrender in public by a defeated army?

Rudradev
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Rudradev » 19 Dec 2017 23:16

Anupmisra ji, I believe they thought it was going to be a private surrender but it turned out to be public. Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUFa-i85k88

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby anupmisra » 20 Dec 2017 00:09

Rudradev wrote:Anupmisra ji, I believe they thought it was going to be a private surrender but it turned out to be public. Something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUFa-i85k88


Yes, that's the same effect. I wonder if the current generation of pakis realize that their army has the dubious honor of being the only surrendering army to have unconditionally surrendered in full public in recent times. That must humiliate and hurt. Gen Jacob insisted on a public ceremony. Even the Nazis signed the surrender document in a closed room in Reims. The Japs signed their document on a ship. No public humiliation.

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby ramana » 20 Dec 2017 01:54

The 1971 war ended the three front war nightmare of Pakistan on two fronts and China in the north.

At same time it exposed the US superpower threat which hitherto fore was via Pakistan as a proxy.


This was the reason for the PNE in 1974 as no nuke umbrella was forthcoming and such security guarantee would have meant re-colonization by Soviets.

ramana
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby ramana » 20 Dec 2017 01:55

CPEC is making it all one front war if that happens.

Austin
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Austin » 14 May 2018 21:03

Vijay Diwas: How India Got Pakistan To Surrender In 1971


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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Austin » 14 May 2018 21:05

Vande Mataram | Story Of 1971 War


chetak
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby chetak » 15 May 2018 20:21

anupmisra wrote:
In a recent television interview, General Jacob asserted that the capture of Dhaka did not figure in the Field Marshal's offensive plans. Building on arguments he had earlier made in his 1999 book, Surrender at Dacca: Birth of a Nation, General Jacob argued that Field Marshal Manekshaw had wanted advancing troops to capture towns bypassed in the course of their lightning advance. Without dispute, such a decision would have cost India a decisive victory. India's triumph, General Jacob claimed, was in fact the result of the initiative of mid-ranking officers notably himself.


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 766660.ece


Just saying onlee,

Gen Jacob was an iraqi jew by ancestry.

The sheer irony of it all, and the pakis would certainly have not missed this little nugget.

ramana
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby ramana » 16 May 2018 01:48

Only there was no Iraq when his ancestors arrived in India fleeing Ottoman persecution in Baghdad.

Austin
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Austin » 17 May 2018 15:28

Indian Air Force Dogfight - Flying Officer Nirmal Jit Sekhon - Param Vir Chakra [ Good CGI Work ]


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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby g.sarkar » 18 May 2018 00:39

chetak wrote:

Just saying onlee,
Gen Jacob was an iraqi jew by ancestry.
The sheer irony of it all, and the pakis would certainly have not missed this little nugget.

That Gen Jacob was a Jew was well known to the Pak army and I had read that Gen. Jacob kept it low key. It was Pakistan that publicized it. If I remember it correctly, the original idea of FM Manekshaw and his planners was to quickly liberate a part of East Pakistan and declare it an independent country. He did not have a plan to liberate Dacca. In his defence, it must be said that no one could have anticipated that India could defeat the Pakis so quickly. They did not even put up a semblance of a fight. During the Dacca surrender the number of Indian army present was ridiculously low. The FM was originally in the Frontier Force and knew the Pak army well, but even he did not foresee how they had deteriorated in 1971. Killing civilians and raping women is not good for the morale. In WWII Germans killed many innocent civilians including Jews. But they made an effort to keep the fighting men away from this carnage.
Gautam

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby arshyam » 19 May 2018 15:16

In WW2, I have read that most of the killings were done by the SS, and the Wehrmacht was not that involved, so I think you have a point there.

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby g.sarkar » 19 May 2018 15:32

If I remember correctly, SS had two parts. The Waffen SS was mostly for fighting. There was also a political wing that managed the concentration camps. Killings were mostly done by the inmates themselves and Ukrainian volunteers. The Ukranians were known for their brutality. The inmates who were used to kill and loot the bodies were themselves killed at regular intervals. Due to the war, there was a shortage of German men in the camps. But the management was always in German hands.
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby rsingh » 19 May 2018 17:49

^^^^
You are correct. here is a Russian film where it clearly depicted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3VLaSujlXI
Whermacht would occupy a territory and destroy infrastructure. Burn the villages to terrify habitants into submission. SS would follow to pacify the population and control the occupied areas. There were special sections of SS which was given task of fetching blond girls for the services of higher officials. Any way the regime was very brutal.
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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby rsingh » 19 May 2018 17:52

arshyam wrote:In WW2, I have read that most of the killings were done by the SS, and the Wehrmacht was not that involved, so I think you have a point there.


well most of the time. But Wehrmacht had no respect for Geneva convention for POW (specially Slavs). There is a clip where rounded POWs are left to starve and Himmler was very happy seeing dying people.

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Re: Remembering the 1971 war

Postby Lalmohan » 21 May 2018 13:39

the political context is important. the german people were told that the eastern Europeans were sub-human (untermenschen) and could therefore be treated as animals. even before the war Himmler was writing papers about how the wheat fields of the Ukraine had to be turned to feeding the the german people and the displacement and death of millions of slavs was a necessary byproduct
in that context (similar to pakjabis being told that east Pakistani Bengalis were subhuman and religiously suspect) - the wholesale mistreatment and killings of other peoples is easily accomplished - even by ordinary men going around "following orders"
the Wehrmacht also took part in atrocities, but were less ideologically motivated than the SS
the Nazis tapped into a massive wellspring of anti-Semitism in central/eastern Europe - it was easy to find people who would kill jews to please their new masters


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