Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near temple

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Lalmohan
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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Dec 2010 23:16

only sell routers that work secured - i am sure its a small software patch?

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby abhischekcc » 08 Dec 2010 23:29

Use of locally procured material is usually indicator that the planning was not deep and long term. Hence, Pakistani hand in this particular blast is likely to be limited to giving the go-ahead.

Ammonium nitrate is a fertilizer - no way to trace it.
The milk can could have been an old one, or bought in a scrap market, or simply stolen - no way to trace it either.

The target was a target of opportunity - large number of people gathering everyday on the ghat.
However, the choice of target shows some thinking - foreigner were attacked. This is similar to 26/11.

Hence, the objective was probably to let India down in front of foreign (read western) media.
This betrays a typically paki thinking - they are constantly seeking approval from the west, and seem to think that India does so too.

Nuke the b-astards.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby vera_k » 08 Dec 2010 23:40

Most of these routers are user updatable with software downloaded from the internet, so more measures are needed.

Short term -

* Make it a minor offence to have an unsecured router and follow up with an education campaign

* Give police scanners that detect unsecured routers. Routers will start getting secured once police start showing up at doorstep.

* Positions of unsecured routers can be triangulated if detection equipment is installed on cell phone towers. Cross-reference with mobile phone databases will give phone number to call and inform of offence being committed.

Longer term, regulate -

* Only routers with default security can be sold
* Take China approach i.e. change wi-fi frequencies, and create new wi-fi standard for Indian market

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2010 23:53

Hindu reports;

CCTV footage being examined

Also very clear that there were two bombs. One exploded and another recovered from a metal dustbin. No more reports of milk cans etc.

Also looking at the injuries the bomb didn't have metal parts. However Al slivers recovered in the area. Maybe from the container if there was one.

If they have CCTV footage etc., how can the MHA blame the local authorties for the incident?


Image

One can clearly see the parts of the light blue handrail. The metal particles can be from it. However they would be iron assuming the handrail is steel.

Also from the major chunk of the handrail missing the bomb was placed near the right most part the missing section. And a lot of stone steps fractured and became debris. So most likely the miscreant left the container on the mid section of the hand rail and scooted.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby saip » 08 Dec 2010 23:57

Even in the US many wifi connections are unsecured. Right now I see 8 wifi connections around me and three of them are unsecured. So what are the chances of educating the indian public to secure their connections?

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby BijuShet » 09 Dec 2010 00:41

Unsecured Wifi router is not the issue here. The email could have been sent using many other ways. The issue at hand is what does GoI do when it catches the guy who sent this email and how does it identify the other misguided ones who may know of ways to hack networks or use other tech tricks. We need to put the fear of GoI into these guys. First step towards it would be to target any NGO that raises HR concerns for those captured under terrorism charges. Anyone else feeling the need to revive POTA.

Communal sensitivities need to take a back seat otherwise communal relations will be endangered in the long run. The community leaders need to be told that these types of incidence(vaardath) will force local police to look deeper into sensitive communities and will bring into focus all their other non-kosher activities.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2010 00:48

More on the unsecured wifi router:

Disc jockey faces questioning on wifi router

..
"I was told some terror outfit used it to send an e-mail after the Varanasi blast (yesterday). I was shocked and shaken. I was questioned for at least 30 minutes last night," he told PTI.

"Today also I was taken to the crime branch office in Mumbai and same questions were repeated. The questioning lasted for a few hours," said the DJ, who has done remix of several many Bollywood songs.

Talreja said he had learnt lessons from the "bad" experience. "Everyone should know how to secure their Internet connections. I will never leave my WiFi unprotected again."

Indian Mujahideen (IM), the outfit which purportedly sent the email to media houses claiming responsibility for the blast, had hacked into WiFi of Talreja.

Police said the logger of the router has been disabled so there was no trace of who logged and hacked it. The email ID used was from Gmail and the mail was written on December 6. The account has been accessed rarely, police sources said.
..



So unprotected wifi is a standard modus operandi of the terrorists. One directive from MHA to the broadband providers to ensure their routers are secured downstream will do the trick.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2010 00:54

Another report detailing why its difficult to trace the e-mail...

Tough to trace e-mail

What are they talking about? How can an e-mail be sent based on time? Is there something else going on?

...The e-mail was then bounced off several servers, with the final internet protocol address leading to a man named Binghui Gao, whose computer was on the China Unicom Heilongjiang Province Network in the Chinese city of Harbin.

Who sent the e-mail is a mystery, as has been the case with almost all IM communication.

The exception to this was the chance arrest of a car thief, Afzal Usmani, who blew the lid off the terror outfit that is an offshoot of the Pakistani-based Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. Usmani's arrest led the Crime Branch to software professional Mohammed Peerbhoy in September 2008.

Tuesday's e-mail was fed into the network on December 6 and programmed such that it would be sent only after the blast. This delayed e-mail configuration is commonly used by e-greeting websites, sources said.

"It will take a detailed investigation to trace the e-mail," a senior ATS officer said.

Mumbai police commissioner Sanjeev Dayal said the e-mail was similar to a series of e-mails sent in 2008 using unsecured wi-fi connections. For instance, an e-mail on August 24, 2008, was sent moments after Gujarat police claimed a breakthrough in the blasts that rocked Ahmedabad on July 26 that year.

In October 2008, the police claimed to have busted the cell behind these e-mails, arresting 20 suspected IM operatives.

"We launched an awareness drive (after 2008) and we plan to repeat it to make people realise the dangers of unsecured connections," Dayal said.
....


So was the e-mail already in the itnernet and got released after the blast? What are they saying? Thinking in Hindi and writing in English!

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2010 01:00

Originally posted by Philip
Published on Sep 23, 2010
By Julius Cavendish
How the CIA ran a secret army of 3,000 assassins: Independent UK
The US Central Intelligence Agency is running and paying for a secret 3,000-strong army of Afghan paramilitaries whose main aim is assassinating Taliban and al-Qa'ida operatives not just in Afghanistan but across the border in neighbouring Pakistan's tribal areas, according to Bob Woodward's explosive book.

Although the CIA has long been known to run clandestine militias in Afghanistan, including one from a base it rents from the Afghan president Hamid Karzai's half-brother in the southern province of Kandahar, the sheer number of militiamen directly under its control have never been publicly revealed.

Woodward's book, Obama's Wars, describes these forces as elite, well-trained units that conduct highly sensitive covert operations into Pakistan as part of a stepped-up campaign against al-Qa'ida and Afghan Taliban havens there. Two US newspapers published the claims after receiving copies of the manuscript.

The secret army is split into "Counterterrorism Pursuit Teams", and is thought to be responsible for the deaths of many Pakistani Taliban fighters who have crossed the border into Afghanistan to fight Nato and Afghan government forces there.

There are ever-increasing numbers of "kill-or-capture" missions undertaken by US Special Forces against Afghan Taliban and foreign fighters, who hope to drive rank-and-file Taliban towards the Afghan government's peace process by eliminating their leaders. The suspicion is that the secret army is working in close tandem with them.

Although no comment has been forthcoming, it is understood that the top US and Nato commander in Afghanistan, Gen David Petraeus, approves of the mission, which bears similarities to the covert assassination campaign against al-Qa'ida in Iraq, which was partially credited with stemming the tide of violence after the country imploded between 2004 and 2007.

The details of the clandestine army have surprised no one in Kabul, the Afghan capital, although the fact that the information is now public is unprecedented. There have been multiple reports of the CIA running its own militias in southern Afghanistan.


TSPA, ISI, JuD, LeT all have families, women and kids!

Dead x 10, Injured x 100! They will learn that when butterflies in India jump up in panic, it causes bloody storms in Rawalpindi and Muridke.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby saip » 09 Dec 2010 01:03

.
Last edited by saip on 09 Dec 2010 01:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby brihaspati » 09 Dec 2010 01:04

ramana ji,
how effective is economic stress for a country whose majority population practically lives a marginal hand to mouth existence [in spite of all Paki upper middle class propaganda that their country is overwhelmingly propospering for every Paki] anyway?

More economic stress from outside means the growth in power of Islamist charities whose meagre handouts will continue to hold the flock and win them followers. There is an expression "killing in [cooked]rice". To do that apart from external macro economic factors, can you also kill off the supply route for the Dawaists?

By the way, there is no point discussing as to why the GOI is apparently inert in reacting with good measure. The GOI - both its political and administrative apparatus does never face any penalties for failing to prevent such incidents. If it faced such penalties, economic prosperity or USA-Panda or nuke holocaust - all such excuses would be thrown out of the door and the window and the verandah.

The powerful cherish their power most. If that was hurt - reaction would be instantaneous.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby SwamyG » 09 Dec 2010 01:08

Rahul M wrote:
negi wrote:What if we Brahmos the ISI headquarters out of the blue , seriously 'kaun kya ukhaad lega' ?

you know, that might not be such a bad idea after all.

It can be called field-test.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Gagan » 09 Dec 2010 01:09

Rahul M wrote:
negi wrote:What if we Brahmos the ISI headquarters out of the blue , seriously 'kaun kya ukhaad lega' ?

you know, that might not be such a bad idea after all.

A part of me really wants that done.
In fact we should have done that right after 26/11.

I wonder what the pakistanis will do if GoI did that and no more. They will have to then respond. I think that they would do a lot of rona dhona, ask for a nuclear deal, ask for kashmir, but won't have the balls to militarily respond.
Just like after the Atlantique shoot down, they did nothing because they couldn't have done anything. Even if the IAF tomorrow enters pakistani airspace and takes another atlantique or the saab eriye down, they won't be able to respond militarily.

After 26/11 India really should have done this. The pakistanis and amreekans were really worried that Cold start had been ordered, and the first week they were crapping in their salwars. The Pakistanis were so shit scared in the week after that that they were promising FULL GUBO to GOI. Everyone from Zardari to the foreign minister and the ISI chief were mobilized by Kiyani to haath-pair jodo to GoI, claiming that we didn't order it executed just now-galti ho gayi-we'll find out who did it, we think we know who did it, some people went over board, and we'll discipline them.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Ananya » 09 Dec 2010 01:11

Would it not be wise by

1 Police Keeping quite abt the router used wait for 2 days and expect another mail to suface up from the same account which would be hacked and take them out.

2. A proper crowd control machanisim where all crowded area of worship where ever police picketing is requested a Survelyance camera records the events , this can be put up on a pole and has a 24 hrs recording backup.

3. some jokers in the police need to keep quit and not advertize thmeselves as the best COP.
Last edited by Ananya on 09 Dec 2010 01:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby brihaspati » 09 Dec 2010 01:11

RajeshA ji,
that training for the Afghans dirty-work-SAS brigade is unlikely to be of benefit. Whenever that has been successful, it was only derived from a nationalist or strong ideological viewpoint. Now what exactly is the "nationalism" to which the Afghans will feel strongly attached? They will have their tribal loyalties and religious factional identities competing with any separate identity.

The force will be a lucrative centre for Taleb recruitment.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby negi » 09 Dec 2010 01:12

Ramana saar event/time based triggering of emails is possible, all that spam which we receive in mail boxes is 'auto' generated.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby brihaspati » 09 Dec 2010 01:16

Another way to carry out "brahmos" is for India to finally admit that there are non-state actors in India too, who are using Indian soil to target Pakistanis for the atrocities carried out by Pakis on people who want azadi from them. India is trying but it si difficult given that India is multicultural, liberal and open society compared to Pakistan.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2010 01:19

OK. In this case how could have worked?

_------

I note Gujarat also sent a team of ATS and forensic people to UP based on the e-mail contents mentioning their state. Wonder if Andhra is planning to send or it is covered by Centre presence?

Shouldnt MHA ask NIA to takeover instead of free for all state police being sent? Or what is going on?
--
BJi, Its beyond non-state actors. MMS called them " evil forces of terrorism" i.e. is they are powered by an IEDa and not a mere state or non-state.

Something like "shaitani" forces.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Gagan » 09 Dec 2010 01:19

brihaspati wrote:ramana ji,
how effective is economic stress for a country whose majority population practically lives a marginal hand to mouth existence [in spite of all Paki upper middle class propaganda that their country is overwhelmingly propospering for every Paki] anyway?

The powerful cherish their power most. If that was hurt - reaction would be instantaneous.

Pakistan may be dirt poor, but the armed forces and the feudals continue to prosper.
The faujis have the fauji foundation industries, which are the largest shareholders on the Karachi Stock Exchange. There are land owners with vast tracts of land, and who are now in politics. Everyone there keeps the faujis in good humor and actively collaborates with them. The faujis skim off huge sums from the various baksheesh schemes that the 3.5 cook up for them-some baksheesh probably goes back to the 3.5 masters too.

Economic targeting should be to the cash rich faujis who are behind this terrorism business. They are the ones who provide the misguided islamists with the mission. Left to themselves, the islamists will probably kill each other off and cause general murder and mayhem within pakistan. But it is the faujis who direct their energies at India, Afghanistan, the US, Australia, SE asia, Russia, Europe etc.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Gagan » 09 Dec 2010 01:25

Of the 3.5 friends, 2.5 give money to the Fauj only.
KSA is the one which officially gives money to both the fauj and the islamists, and unofficially only to the islamists.

KSA needs to be made to understand that their actions by choice or inadvertently are playing a part in keeping the Jihadi infrastructure alive by providing them with funds.

India can take this up directly with KSA, and indirectly ask the US to do the same. At the official level I hope that the Royal Families in the middle east will try and clamp down, but we'll have to see.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2010 01:28

In the WikiLeaks, there was a cable which stated that Saudis were unwilling or unable to clamp down on all these charities, even though Americans have been putting pressure on them to do so.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby negi » 09 Dec 2010 01:39

Ramana saar I am not into this kind of stuff but afaik Google Calendar can be used to create events that can trigger emails now if there is a way to couple this with an 'anonymous remailer' utility/service one can easily buy some time before the intelligence agencies are able to track the guy from whose account this email originated.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2010 01:46

Published on Dec 08, 2010
‘Bhatkal brothers orchestrated Varanasi blast from Pak’: The Siyasat Daily
Image
Mumbai, December 08: Mumbai Police Commissioner Sanjeev Dayal on Wednesday said that evidence gathered by the police in connection with the terror attack in Varanasi points to the involvement of Indian Mujahideen’s Riyaz and Iqbal Bhatkal.

As per the police, the Bhatkals, who are among the founding members of the banned terror outfit, are operating from Pakistan and that the modus operandi clearly points to their involvement.

Speaking to reporters, Dayal said that the terror email sent to the media soon after the blast in the temple town, that one dead and more than 30 injured, was traced to a house in Mumbai but the owners are innocent as it was a case of someone misusing the unsecured wi-fi connection.

Importantly, earlier in the day, reports had pointed at the direct involvement of the Indian Mujahideen members Dr Shahnawaz and Assadullah, who are currently holed up in the Sharjah.

Both of them are part of the same terror cell that carried out the serial blasts in Delhi on September 13, 2008, which led to the infamous Batla house encounter on October 24 of the same year

It’s not for the first time that the Bhatkals have come under the scanner for being at the centrestage of all anti-India activities. They have been held responsible for at least 11 blasts across the country since 2005.

Riyaz Bhatkal alias Roshan Khan alias Aziz alias Ahmedbhai and Iqbal Bhatkal alias Mohammed Bhai are said to belong to Bhatkal near Mangalore but they grew up in Kurla, Mumbai, where they ran a leather-tanning business.

In Kurla, they stayed at Pipe Road, a stone's throw from the place that once housed the banned organisation SIMI's head office. It was there that the two brothers became strong SIMI members and ran the office until the Maharashtra government sealed it in 2001.

After SIMI was banned they formed the Indian Mujahideen. It is these SIMI activists who are said to be providing logistic support to other terror outfits and indulging in terror acts themselves in the garb of IM.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2010 01:51

Gagan, Again we go back to your question- What should the Indian govt do by itself? Its very clear it hasn't done mcuh except plead to others. Wonder what new stuff the US embassy is ending back as situation reports?

For starters clamp down on the numerous voices and not let out of turn statements come from the investigating officers. Why is Maha Police shooting its mouth when the UP police is not on board? If they are so efficient by now they should have closed their end of the case and not claim Bhatkals are planning stuff from West Asia while e-mails are going from Vashi from unsecured wi-fi router. Everyone knows you have to be within certain distance of the router to access it. Have they searched all the places? Who in Vashi sent it? That is the question? Bhatkals in West Asia or Osama doesn't matter. Their investigation is incomplete.

Next what taking so long to identify the stuff used. And why whisper it to HT reporters and not inform the local ADG so he doesn't appear clueless?

Is this all Pakian moves to appear Clouseau like?

And the politicians can they once, stop blaming each other when its clear both have failed?

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby saip » 09 Dec 2010 02:03

Negi: You can delay sending an email from your Computer but that means the computer has to be connected to the internet. That is no different from someone clicking a button. What I mean is suppose you have gmail or hotmail account and compose mail and then can u delay it? Sure you can do this in Outlook or Thunderbird, but these programs are residing on your computer.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2010 02:06

SwamyG, Can you muckety this?

Hunt in Mumbai for the e-mailers

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2010 02:11

Can't they get the MAC address of the computer from WiFi?

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2010 02:24

Ind Express:

Very different bomb puzzles police

So some thing is different in this case. Also what was the basic stuff used?

It could be right that to avoid the metal detectors they did not use the nails etc. Is it possible they used an agarbatti type fuse to set of the stuff? And relied on the sotnes to provide the debris? Then what about the one that was found in the dustbin? Was it dismantled?

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Dipanker » 09 Dec 2010 02:29

abhischekcc wrote:Use of locally procured material is usually indicator that the planning was not deep and long term. Hence, Pakistani hand in this particular blast is likely to be limited to giving the go-ahead.

Ammonium nitrate is a fertilizer - no way to trace it.
The milk can could have been an old one, or bought in a scrap market, or simply stolen - no way to trace it either.

The target was a target of opportunity - large number of people gathering everyday on the ghat.
However, the choice of target shows some thinking - foreigner were attacked. This is similar to 26/11.

Hence, the objective was probably to let India down in front of foreign (read western) media.
This betrays a typically paki thinking - they are constantly seeking approval from the west, and seem to think that India does so too.

Nuke the b-astards.


Actually the ammonium nitrate manufacturers ( there are probably 40 - 50 of them in the whole country?) can purposely contaminate the fertilizer with trace amount of any substance that can be used as signature for identification through mass spectroscopy. The manufacturers probably cover a particular geographical area for distribution of their fertilizer, so any ammonium nitrate used by terrorists can be localized to a geographical area where it was purchased. Now talking to a couple of hundred ( or may be even less) sellers of fertilizer in that geographical area who are required to maintain a record of name and address of people (or should be required) who bought ammonium nitrate from them.

Of course the terrorists are going to use fake name and address to purchase the ammonium nitrate but shopkeeper who sold the fertilizer may be can provide a physical description of them? Taking pictures of buyers of ammonium nitrate by hidden camera will also help!

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Dipanker » 09 Dec 2010 02:39

RajeshA wrote:Can't they get the MAC address of the computer from WiFi?


MAC address can be changed too.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby SBajwa » 09 Dec 2010 03:00

Police said the logger of the router has been disabled so there was no trace of who logged and hacked it. The email ID used was from Gmail and the mail was written on December 6. The account has been accessed rarely, police sources said.
..


These terrorists who are using unsecured wi-fi to provoke and threaten common citizens are not some educated computer whiz-kids rather they are semi-literates motivated by "72-houris".

Any laptop or device has MAC address which is easy to be logged into the log.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby negi » 09 Dec 2010 03:05

Saip sir yeah I somehow did not think about that, also how about cascading a series of 'anonymous remailers' which would give an impression of delay in sending an email (don't know if one can create a gap of 24 hours or so by doing that) ?

Rajesh ji if the WiFi was left unsecured the chances of default 'Admin' password being left unchanged are high, iow MAC address logs might have been deleted by the culprits.

Btw what does one mean by 'disabling' a router ? I think police might be referring to the deletion of the wireless network profile after the mail was sent.
Last edited by negi on 09 Dec 2010 03:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Mauli » 09 Dec 2010 03:05

Mauli wrote:
purported IM e-mail on Varanasi bombing,

http://www.scribd.com/doc/44842205/Indi ... deen-7-Dec

I hope this time i will not be accused of flame baiting. It is straight from horse's mouth.


The document has been taken off. Please upload it if you have it saved.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/44866138/Indi ... 10-Email-2

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Riza Zaman » 09 Dec 2010 03:23

RamaY wrote:
Riza Zaman wrote:pakis are a hard spot regarding their strategy to India. They know they can't pull of another 26-11, parliament attack or anything large scale. If they do, India might make good on the Army's plans of brigade level raids on terrorist camps in POK - which will lead to an exponential escalation given the current posture of pak's forces in the FATA. Therefore, they're resorting to these small (no less tragic) attacks. We need to pull the trigger on the economic gun and choking their markets. We're pulling all the right moves in Afghanistan and Balochistan, we need to keep up the pressure.


We thought the same after Parliament attack and Op-Parakram. Then came Mumbai train bombs, 11/26 etc., All Pakistan needs is another S-e-S from MMS, the PM of India, to make the next move.

Economic pressure could be the only option MMS, PM of India, might like to use.

But it can backfire too. Economic pressure will hurt all Pakistanis, including those innocent type especially the relatives of IMs. One must take this into calculation.

India has been a victim of Paki terrorism for decades. It shows the intellectual/innovation vacuum in Indian military/political strategy, that India doesn't have any infrastructure developed to make pin-point overt/covert strikes on Paki terrorists.


The situation is Balochistan is slowly developing into a nice little militancy of its own with the pakis crying foul at RAW. They're already hemmed in at the Af-pak border. The pak army is strung out between FATA, Balochistan and the IB. Make no mistake, India is slowly strangulating the pak army. We need to turn up the economic pressure on them in terms of bilateral trade AND their choking their exports & forex reserves.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Rudradev » 09 Dec 2010 03:36

ramana wrote:
For starters clamp down on the numerous voices and not let out of turn statements come from the investigating officers. Why is Maha Police shooting its mouth when the UP police is not on board? If they are so efficient by now they should have closed their end of the case and not claim Bhatkals are planning stuff from West Asia while e-mails are going from Vashi from unsecured wi-fi router. Everyone knows you have to be within certain distance of the router to access it. Have they searched all the places? Who in Vashi sent it? That is the question? Bhatkals in West Asia or Osama doesn't matter. Their investigation is incomplete.



Ramana garu, I don't understand your harping on this Vashi business. Have you visited Mumbai recently? It is the easiest thing in the world to take a netbook or laptop, sit down in a BEST bus or autorickshaw, and travel around until you pick up somebody's unsecure wi-fi network and log into it. You will often find yourself within 300ft of an unsecured broadband router that your device will pick up on. You can send an email on that router and be gone within minutes, on your way to Oshiwara or Byculla or Mumbra. Why would the person who sent the email have any reason to stay in the locality where they were at the time they sent it?

The Mumbai police, for all its flaws, has done some excellent work and is arguably more experienced in forensic CT than any other in the country. They wrapped up the '93 blasts case thoroughly and efficiently, as well as the '03 Gateway of India and '06 train bombings. They were unequipped to fight an urban war against the '08 Mumbai terrorists but that was beyond their widely understood brief at the time.

If they have evidence indicating the involvement of Bhatkal brothers in this attack, what is wrong with their sharing it? What is wrong, as long as they do not compromise their sources by revealing HOW they know? And why is it incumbent on them to wrap up everything in a watertight manner before they reveal information not prejudicial to their prosecution of the case?

You have correctly assessed the nature of the threat in Maharashtra and the entire West Coast for that matter. From the D-company establishment in Mumbai and points south along the Konkan, to Goa (where Israeli and Russian drug Mafia now control vast swathes of land), to Uttara Kannada where Bhatkal and other centers of a certain community are rife with compounds that resemble fortresses, to Madani-land in the south, it's all compromised. You are right in saying that before we point fingers at West Asia, the first priority must be a thorough drainage, cleanup and sterilization of Western India. We can only complain about the source when we have done all we can to ensure the impermeability of its influence in our own territory... otherwise we are like Pakis who demand flood aid but refuse to address their tax structure and water resource management.

In Maharashtra, MH police are reluctant to treat many potential threats as national security matters or even criminal cases; that's because the political class, particularly Sharad Pawar, are involved in a symbiotic relationship with the D-Company upto their eyeballs. Many of the police cadres are beholden to patrons in that political class, so no action is taken in a majority of instances.

Regardless, the Mumbai Police still has a strong institutional core that has produced public servants unparalleled in most parts of India, including Julio Ribeiro, Rakesh Maria, Vijay Salaskar, and the humble but heroic Tukaram Ombale. Efficient and motivated men still function and still rise in the ranks there.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby brihaspati » 09 Dec 2010 03:47

ramana wrote:OK. In this case how could have worked?

_------

I note Gujarat also sent a team of ATS and forensic people to UP based on the e-mail contents mentioning their state. Wonder if Andhra is planning to send or it is covered by Centre presence?

Shouldnt MHA ask NIA to takeover instead of free for all state police being sent? Or what is going on?
--
BJi, Its beyond non-state actors. MMS called them " evil forces of terrorism" i.e. is they are powered by an IEDa and not a mere state or non-state.

Something like "shaitani" forces.

ramana ji,
I meant a similar dhamaka going off in Pindi under inspiration from "non-state actors" using Indian soil, against whom GOI wiull solemnly promise to speedily investigate as soon as Pakis provide the documentary evidence.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Rudradev » 09 Dec 2010 04:08

I've seen some posts here that refer to "maintain communal harmony at all costs" as one of the desirable priorities in mounting a counter-terrorism investigation. Unfortunately, a consideration such as this often ends up being not only a hindrance in the investigation and prosecution of such a case, but ultimately self-defeating, by contributing to a climate where communal harmony eventually ends up being disrupted.

It is a noble idea, but what it means in practice is that law enforcement has its hands tied because the politicians want to "maintain communal harmony at all costs"... i.e, they consider law-and-order less important than certain cynical leaders of the Muslim community who rely on Islamism and will use any excuse to enhance their influence and inflate the currency of their blackmail of the state. Such as the ones screaming "Sonia Gandhi Murdabad" after a cop was killed at Batla House, even though subsequent investigation has revealed there were indeed Ind Muj terrorists inside.

In real-world terms, "maintaining communal harmony at all costs" translates into sheer inaction, with the politicians playing it safe in electoral terms, and the L&O machinery succumbing to institutional inertia and doing nothing until the situation gets too far out of hand.

As an example, consider the Godhra atrocity and the Ahmedabad tragedy that followed. In a sense, Narendra Modi may indeed have been responsible for the Ahmedabad riots, not because of any failure to control the riots themselves but because he chose inaction after Godhra... ostensibly on the grounds that "communal harmony must be maintained at all costs" and "community sensitivities must not be inflamed."

Would things have been different if the Gujarat government had acted differently after the Godhra train burning?

What if, within hours of the incident, the town of Godhra had been the subject of an intensive "nakabandhi" (cordon-and-search operation), clamped down by a large contingent of armed police? What if, right at that very time, witnesses (there must have been hundreds) were deposed for statements; suspects were given the danda without reservation until they spilled what they knew; informants were tapped for all the leads they could provide; and ALL the information gleaned was then acted upon to its logical conclusion?

Isn't it far more likely that the organizers of the train burning would have been apprehended and brought to justice, thereby pre-empting the public fury that erupted in Ahmedabad with tragic loss of life? Even if the suspects weren't successfully apprehended, wouldn't it have inspired public confidence, showing that the government acts decisively to maintain law and order without favoritism or pandering (citing "communal harmony at all costs" as an excuse?) Ultimately, was communal harmony maintained by fecklessly prioritizing its maintenance "at all costs"?

And furthermore... if the police acted in this manner, showing complete disregard for the writ of Islamist community leaders in their fiefdoms, acting to lay down the law regardless of who broke it and where... there is no reason to believe that it would strengthen the hand of those Islamist leaders. In fact, I believe that it would give courage to those "silent majority" Muslims we talk about, a reassurance that the police and the state will be there for them if they live up to their obligations as good citizens by condemning terrorism and informing on the troublemakers. In the absence of a state presence in certain "no-go zones" (again, justified in the name of "maintaining communal harmony at all costs")... the silent ones have no incentive not to remain silent, as the power vacuum is filled by the Islamist blackmailers, their crony maulvis and their goon squads.

What we need is an end to the "no-go-zones". Be they in Mumbra or Azamgarh or Cannanore. Fear of realizing Rehmat Ali Chaudhry's "Dinia" vision has paralyzed state machinery to an extent where "Dinia" is becoming a reality in many mohallas, simply by default.

What we need as well, is a continuous, emphatic, effective and public demolition of the pseudosecular left in the marketplace of ideas. That quarter would have protested any Nakabandhi at Godhra on the grounds that the train burning was an incident of spontaneous combustion/self-immolation by fanatical Kar Sevaks who raped a tea-stall owner at a station platform, and that any attempt to lay down the law or undermine the fiefdom of an Islamist klatsch amounts to state-sponsored Hindootva terrorism. They are perfectly happy to have communal harmony maintained at all costs, as long as all those costs are borne by the Hindus, permanently and indefinitely, without question or complaint.
Last edited by Rudradev on 09 Dec 2010 04:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Gagan » 09 Dec 2010 04:13

Riza Zaman wrote:The situation is Balochistan is slowly developing into a nice little militancy of its own with the pakis crying foul at RAW. They're already hemmed in at the Af-pak border. The pak army is strung out between FATA, Balochistan and the IB. Make no mistake, India is slowly strangulating the pak army. We need to turn up the economic pressure on them in terms of bilateral trade AND their choking their exports & forex reserves.

Riz,
Here is the thing about India in Balochistan till date.

India maintains contacts with them, but is not arming them and giving them a mission to indulge in any untoward activities. What ever is happening in Balochistan and the western provinces of Pakistan is NOT india's doing.
1. The Pakistanis brought it upon themselves, by arming these people and managing to lose control of them. They now have a life of their own.
2. There are other entities on the western border of Pakistan who have been much more busy, than the alleged 1 million consulates of India, as the Pakistanis allege.
MMS was true to the letter when he said that India is not doing anything in Balochistan, this is more of a Pakistani strategy of crying wolf (or RAW or India) everytime something that they dislike happens.

Personally, I wish India would be more proactive in maintaing contacts with the civilians within Pakistan, and when India talks about increased people to people contact, I take it to mean that the civilian politicians are to be kept in the loop about what the faujis are upto. But again this is not something that only India does, the other big powers also do that within Pakistan and are probably more involved with the civilians, but here we don't see the paksitanis protesting.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Karna_A » 09 Dec 2010 04:30

Mauli wrote:purported IM e-mail on Varanasi bombing,



The email with its convoluted logic and hot air reminds me of following:

Agar tujh mein himmat hai
To kutub minaar ko hila kar dikha,
Aur agar nahin, to mere paas baeth,
Do ghoont maar,
Aur Kutub minar ko ! hilta hua dekh

--
If you have real courage,
show me by moving Kutub Minar
And if not, then come with me
Take two sips, (desi tharra recommended)
And see Kutub Minar moving on its own.

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Re: Welcome Back Pakistan: Blast in Varanasi at ghat near te

Postby Rudradev » 09 Dec 2010 04:34

brihaspati wrote:ramana ji,
I meant a similar dhamaka going off in Pindi under inspiration from "non-state actors" using Indian soil, against whom GOI wiull solemnly promise to speedily investigate as soon as Pakis provide the documentary evidence.


The question is, who will do it. Or rather, who CAN do it.

From the Indian Express Article on GOI debating options after 26/11:

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/26-11 ... r/716240/0

Deniable option

In the wake of all the uncertainty over how Pakistan would respond, there was also talk about the “deniable option”. One which would involve covert operatives carrying out a sensational strike in Pakistan or in PoK. It’s learnt that RAW and the Army were specifically asked this question. RAW’s response to the NSA stunned all except, perhaps, Narayanan himself who is among the doyens of Indian intelligence. India’s premier external intelligence agency admitted that it had no assets in Pakistan to carry out such an action. It was explained that India lost all the meagre local support it had in pockets of Pakistan after the Babri Masjid attack and what little was left, was shut down by a prime ministerial diktat during I K Gujral’s tenure.

The Army said it had the ability to carry out commando operations but the government had to be clear what would be the approach if anyone was apprehended. Also, the Army let it be known that it was not sure how Pakistan would react if it found out.

This discussion headed nowhere after this because the ground realities were clear that India had consciously not cultivated this option.


It is all very well (and very well deserved) to condemn IK Gujral for his WKK death-blow to our intelligence assets in Pakistan.

But IK Gujral has not been PM since 1996. Since then 12 years had passed until the 26/11 attacks... and 12 very eventful years in Pakistan, which one may see as rife with opportunities for the cultivation of assets.

So the shameful answer is, no GOI in the last 12 years has authorized and empowered RAW to rebuild their intelligence networks in Pakistan, laying the groundwork for the "non-state" type activities you describe. The blame must go equally to the NDA and the UPA of course, since both had been in power for considerable lengths of time since the tenure of IK Gujral.


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