Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Kashi » 13 Nov 2017 10:13

kiranA wrote:I suppose unlike the Saudis who actually bankroll a significant part of the world.

How can decent hardworking saudi be poor ? they have free healthcare, free education, interest free loans, subsidized food, practically zero utilities. yes there will be some lazy asses or mentally sick people there who still spend more than they can earn.


So one person cites facts with references to links and data and all you can do is continue with anecdotal ramblings and rhetorical questions? At least have the decency to provide references for all the claims to you have made.

Why so much love for Saudis? What is it that you share with them that makes you go ballistic every time someone goes hammer and tongs on the Saudis?

kiranA
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 25 Dec 2016 09:37

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby kiranA » 13 Nov 2017 10:17

Kashi wrote:
kiranA wrote:I suppose unlike the Saudis who actually bankroll a significant part of the world.

How can decent hardworking saudi be poor ? they have free healthcare, free education, interest free loans, subsidized food, practically zero utilities. yes there will be some lazy asses or mentally sick people there who still spend more than they can earn.


So one person cites facts with references to links and data and all you can do is continue with anecdotal ramblings and rhetorical questions? At least have the decency to provide references for all the claims to you have made.

Why so much love for Saudis? What is it that you share with them that makes you go ballistic every time someone goes hammer and tongs on the Saudis?


This is getting weirder and weirder. What facts are missing and what facts do you need ? I gave market caps, credit agency ratings, cited non-oil industry, referred to history in which saudi united.

I dont love saudis but cant stand nonsense and lies.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Karthik S » 13 Nov 2017 10:19

kiranA wrote:Saudi is in every parameter a modern sophisticated nation.


Yeah, it's as sophisticated as periyar is the greatest intellect of 21st century (your own words). You and your stupidity.

kiranA
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 25 Dec 2016 09:37

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby kiranA » 13 Nov 2017 10:29

Karthik S wrote:
kiranA wrote:Saudi is in every parameter a modern sophisticated nation.


Yeah, it's as sophisticated as periyar is the greatest intellect of 21st century (your own words). You and your stupidity.


Bringing in periyar here ? there is a reason GDF got locked. However you may whine, hate and personally attack you have to live with the world as it is. Not as you imagine.

periaswamy
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby periaswamy » 13 Nov 2017 10:32

KiranA: you have to live with the world as it is. Not as you imagine.


:rotfl: yes, sort of the point that you need to understand about KSA, genius. You are trolling this thread with your fact-free nonsense.
Last edited by periaswamy on 13 Nov 2017 10:39, edited 1 time in total.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Karthik S » 13 Nov 2017 10:34

kiranA wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Yeah, it's as sophisticated as periyar is the greatest intellect of 21st century (your own words). You and your stupidity.


Bringing in periyar here ? there is a reason GDF got locked. However you may whine, hate and personally attack you have to live with the world as it is. Not as you imagine.


That's just an analogy to describe your thinking sir. Many people have given you details and facts that are polar opposite to your understanding on the topic. You just post away same thing, you post your opinion as facts.
Is it difficult for you to understand that all that you've mentioned as facts is made possible because of the petro dollar? Take that away what you have left of that land? As Hassan Nisar, the pakistani political commentator said, it was the west that even taught the Saudis that the black filth coming out of your land is called Oil, they taught them what is the use of oil. And you sir, call them sophisticated country.
Last edited by Karthik S on 13 Nov 2017 10:47, edited 1 time in total.

periaswamy
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby periaswamy » 13 Nov 2017 10:38

"I am free" says Hariri

"Here in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, I am free. I have complete freedom, but I want to look after my family as well," he said, adding that he planned to return to Lebanon in the near future.


If I didn't know any better, it almost seems like the Saudis have threatened to harm Hariri's family if he does not toe the saudi line. "I want to look after my family as well" is not a sentence that belongs right after "I have complete freedom".

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 567
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Nov 2017 10:43

KiranA,
I will not be rude to you, but you have questions from any of the posters factually and are going by your opinion and seeing your facts in that light. Please read Ulanbatori's comment and if that doesnt convince you critically answer the following points
1. What other industries they have: You quoted SABIC, it's like I have largest sugarcane farms in the world, which gives me huge money and I have sugar plants. Period, do they have any other industry, Manufacturing anything else. With that much money they can invest and buy pretty much everything but they have always chosen the lazy path of massaging money through stock markets etc. nothing wrong in that, but that's not what makes nations strong, just like gambling lottery money doesnt make you a smart money manager
2. You quote of great banking system. Well at least please never say that to me. Nowhere in the financial services industry their work experience counts. I have seen folks taking hit for levels while relocating there even back to India, forget about US and Europe
3. Would be great of examples of companies that had great success outside GCC region or any innovation by their universities
4. With far lesser money on a per capita basis even chinese have innovated in so many fields
May be I am simply going by perception and dont know facts fully like the outstanding ratings of saudi universities. However, would be keen to know these facts and change my opinion :)

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 567
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Nov 2017 10:44

folks can we stop this infantile fight and stick to facts rather than fights

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Kashi » 13 Nov 2017 10:57

kiranA wrote:This is getting weirder and weirder. What facts are missing and what facts do you need ? I gave market caps, credit agency ratings, cited non-oil industry, referred to history in which saudi united.


No you didn't. You have provided few figures apart from credit agency ratings. You claim that Saudi shipping industry is huge, yet provide no figures on the net worth of this industry, the technical expertise in building ad operating ships that Saudis possess. You claims on social welfare seem not to be followed by percentage of GDP spend on Health/education, social development indices etc. Are these facts not good enough for you?

kiranA wrote:I dont love saudis but cant stand nonsense and lies.


Keep telling yourself that..

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21735
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby SSridhar » 13 Nov 2017 11:18

Folks, BRf encourages everyone's views to be heard. But, please maintain decency.

Falijee
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6240
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Falijee » 13 Nov 2017 19:41

POSTING HERE- THE "OTHER DARK SIDE OF SAUDI SOCIETY" !

Saudi Princess’ tell-all includes Bangladeshi children traded as sex slaves
posting in full .

Saudi Princess Amira Bint Aidan Bin Nayef went on a rampage against the ruling Saudi regime in her exclusive statements to the French newspaper Le Monde, saying slavery in Saudi Arabia has different forms, but it is done in secrecy and permitted only among the primary beneficiaries of the princes of the House of Saud. She mentioned one of the most repulsive things: buying and renting the children, especially the orphans, from countries like Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, the Philippines, Djibouti, Somalia, Nigeria, Romania and Bulgaria.
According to Aidan, the ex-wife of the Saudi Prince Al Waleed bin Talal, who was recently arrested in scope of the anti-corruption purges in the country, those who accuse others of corruption and money laundering, are in fact highly corrupted themselves. the level of hypocrisy in Saudi Arabia is very very high !
Russian online newsportal Fort Russ reports quoting Aden’s interview on Le Monde, the princess said they’ve turned the city of Jeddah into a slave market where underage girls are being exploited for noisy sex parties involving drug and alcohol abuse.
She said that one of the main reasons why this keeps going on is that the members of the Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (Saudi Sharia police) tend to keep away from the matter, fearing they might lose their jobs, should they intervene.
IMO, a plausible explanation !
The newspaper quoted the princess as saying that a Hallowen event was recently held in Jeddah, and which was attended by 150 people, including employees of the consulates. The scene was like a typical nightclub anywhere outside the Kingdom, with available wines, dancing couples in fancy costumes, and a DJ. Are not such parties "technically illegal" ?
Bint Aidan said the price of smuggled liquor in the country is very high. For instance, the price of the Smirnoff vodka is $400, sometimes forcing party organisers to refill the original bottles with a local wine called Siddiqui. ( also a common surname in Pakistan :D )
The children become the property of those who buy them and are not allowed to leave without permission.Even the Asian maids who come to work often find themselves in a kind of slave-like position. Young girls are divided into smaller groups and exploited for immoral acts. Many Indian maids too have been exploited the same way !
Trafficking of white women and exploiting them for sexual practices is also relatively common.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6853
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby JE Menon » 13 Nov 2017 20:36

Gents, if there is anything in posts that need to be dissect that... I'm seconding SS's call for civility.

On a separate note, someone mentioned that Bandar Bin Sultan is in line for the throne... He is not, and will never be (i.e. as close to zero probability of that as possible). He is the son of a slave (black) mother, a no no in terms of being in line to become king. If you see a photo of him wearing Western clothes, you'll know what I mean.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8604
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Nov 2017 20:52

What is the genesis of the term "bin Sultan" (son of the King? Are there families named Sultan?)
His face looks quite round in that pic. I have not seen his pictures after the 1990s, when he looked more sharp-featured, of course in his $20,000 suit - maybe because of his million-dollar beard which is now reduced to gray stubble. Just a pity that someone like that now will most probably end his days in a Saudi dungeon.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21735
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby SSridhar » 13 Nov 2017 21:07

UB, His father was Sultan bin Abdul Aziz, the three decade reigning defence minister who bankrolled the Pakistani n-weapons. He was taken around Kahuta but the then Pakistani PM Benazir wasn't allowed entry there!

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6853
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby JE Menon » 13 Nov 2017 21:11

UB, he is the son of the former minister of defence Prince Sultan Ibn Abdel Aziz, now deceased, from one of his slave wives. Hence the bin Sultan. In this case Sultan is a name not a designation. This is a more recent picture of the man (he has grayed much more since):

http://www.voltairenet.org/article175173.html

Another thing, highly unlikely he will end his days in a dungeon. Incarceration will be de luxe. No question about that I think, if they are incarcerated at all. I am expecting that one by one many of the key princes and other detainees will make their allegiances clear (after some form of negotiation with MBS' group) and will return to normal life.

periaswamy
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby periaswamy » 13 Nov 2017 21:17

Maybe MBS is smart enough to ensure that none of his royal half-siblings join KSAs enemies because of his handling them poorly at this time. But given how KSA has screwed with Russia's oil revenues, there is no reason for Russia to cooperate with KSA in keeping oil prices at a level where the margins for KSA are as they should be. Especially given how KSA and Russia have been on opposite sides of various issues recently. So even if nothing disastrous happens to the House of Saud regime, MBS has his work cut out for him. Not very sure I buy his moderate image, especially since all of that is coming from the American media houses -- they used to call Bin Laden moderate before they called him a terrorist.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47907
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2017 00:14

We need to refer to them by first name. Bandar and Amira.

BTW Bandar was reportedly beaten.

Long ago I had said every defeat will have consequences.. Looks like Syrian and Yemen defeats led to the upending of the House of Saud by House of Salman. So called replacing the horizontal and diagonal succession with vertical succession.

In his heydays Bandar was the doyen of the Diplomatic corps in Washington, D.C being the senior most diplomat.

SS and JEM,. I am trying to post a map of KSA and Iran and the appurtenant Shia areas. The map looks like KSA in a nut cracker.

Iran has played this well since the fall of Shah.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4492
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby SBajwa » 14 Nov 2017 00:32

http://time.com/3679537/rich-nation-poo ... di-arabia/

With its vast oil wealth, Saudi Arabia has one of the highest concentrations of super rich households in the world. But an estimated 20 percent of the population, if not more, lives in crippling poverty. Beggars panhandle in the shadows of Riyadh’s luxury shopping malls, and just a few kilometers away families struggle to get by in the capital’s southern slums. While the government has finally acknowledged that poverty is a problem in the kingdom, the world of the Saudi poor is largely hidden from sight (to read more, see the new article on Saudi Arabia in the international edition of TIME, available to subscribers here).

Accessing this world is a difficult undertaking for foreign journalists, granted only with the assistance of a few dedicated social workers who risk government opprobrium to expose the realities of life lived on the margins. The Saudi state offers free health care and education, but little in the way of income assistance or food stamps. Many poor Saudi families rely on handouts from private citizens instead. Muslims are expected to give a portion of their annual income to charity, and many go beyond the bare minimum. Prince Al Waleed bin Talal, Saudi Arabia’s richest investor, estimates that he has given several billions of dollars in charity over the past 30 years, much of it wired directly to the accounts of petitioners who apply to his office for assistance with paying back loans, buying a car or getting married. It’s not necessary, but most of those supplicants visit the prince in person as part of a weekly ritual dating back to the early days of the al Saud dynasty. They line up to deliver their requests. Several pause to recite poems in praise of his generosity. The government has pledged to eradicate poverty, but it is a difficult and long-term undertaking made all the more complex by a rapidly growing population and a paucity of jobs.

Lynsey Addario is a photographer based in London and a frequent contributor to TIME.

Aryn Baker is the Middle East bureau chief for TIME. Follow her on Twitter

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4492
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby SBajwa » 14 Nov 2017 00:37

by Kirana
I am not sure what is proper nation to you. But from where I see - Saudi is in every parameter a modern sophisticated nation. Its credit rating is A or AA depending on agency - its banking system is sophisticated. Its shipping company is one of the worlds largest. Its stock exchange market cap is $500 billion and aramco is not even listed. Recollect saudis are only 20 million or so. Its has one of the worlds largest chemicals and plastic company SABIC.



Saudis are 33 million and not 20 million. The tribes of the Nejd region control the oil rich Eastern Arabia (Shia majority Arabs).

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47907
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2017 01:23

ramana wrote:We need to refer to them by first name. Bandar and Amira.

BTW Bandar was reportedly beaten.

Long ago I had said every defeat will have consequences.. Looks like Syrian and Yemen defeats led to the upending of the House of Saud by House of Salman. So called replacing the horizontal and diagonal succession with vertical succession.

In his heydays Bandar was the doyen of the Diplomatic corps in Washington, D.C being the senior most diplomat.

SS and JEM,. I am trying to post a map of KSA and Iran and the appurtenant Shia areas. The map looks like KSA in a nut cracker.

Iran has played this well since the fall of Shah.



Here is an Indian think tank

http://www.gatewayhouse.in/saudi-purge-arab-spring-2-0/

Baikul
BRFite
Posts: 1119
Joined: 20 Sep 2010 06:47

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Baikul » 14 Nov 2017 01:30

I am not given to KiranA's views on Saudi Arabians as capable nation builders and administrators. They've got no innate or locally developed science or engineering or technology worth speaking of, not the capability to independently endeavour in any of those directions.

But when you take a look at their history how the ruling dynasty has survived and thrived since the 1920s, you have to give the House of Saud some credit for vision, high diplomacy and low cunning. They could have gone the way of other oil majors such as Iraq or Venenzuela, or other oil producers like Libya, but for all their corruption, arrogance, racism, denial of rights to citizens, contemptible military, the ruling dynasty has more or less kept the peace for a long time, and they've more or less built a global presence, and they've more or less built a more affluent society than they inherited. We'll probably see how durable or fragile is their social order, but in the interim I'll not underestimate them at all.

kiranA
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 25 Dec 2016 09:37

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby kiranA » 14 Nov 2017 01:41

SBajwa wrote:
by Kirana
I am not sure what is proper nation to you. But from where I see - Saudi is in every parameter a modern sophisticated nation. Its credit rating is A or AA depending on agency - its banking system is sophisticated. Its shipping company is one of the worlds largest. Its stock exchange market cap is $500 billion and aramco is not even listed. Recollect saudis are only 20 million or so. Its has one of the worlds largest chemicals and plastic company SABIC.



Saudis are 33 million and not 20 million. The tribes of the Nejd region control the oil rich Eastern Arabia (Shia majority Arabs).


33 millions includes immigrants. Actual nationals are around 20 million . Atleast half of them below 25 due to high birthrates. The actual working population ( leaving women perhaps) may not even equal Pune in India. Nevertheless they built a non oil stock market worth 500 billions. Huge non oil companies like sabic with 40 billion plus turnover. They own the sixth biggest oil tanker fleet in the world . And one of the largest users of VLCC ships.

periaswamy
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby periaswamy » 14 Nov 2017 03:31

KiranA: Huge non oil companies like sabic with 40 billion plus turnover.

Sabic is entirely based on processing crude oil to create polymers and organic compounds. It is not a "non oil" company -- just like most other KSA industries, it is a derivative industry based on processing crude oil.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8604
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Nov 2017 04:08

deleted
Last edited by UlanBatori on 14 Nov 2017 06:28, edited 1 time in total.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 567
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Nov 2017 04:46

seriously are you still arguing it. The stock market you are quoting Tadawul has just 171 countries, almost all saudi companies..gues where do they derive their funding from? Top 8 companies have govt stake. I am sure you know the source of funding of saudi govt.
Please provide one saudi product that is used in other markets. Islam is the largest religion in the world I am sure their products will find appeal to muslims in India pakistan, bangladesh and Indonesia. It's surprising with so much money they have 6th largest fleet only, they might have had the largest fleet too, but that requires skills in supply chain management (loosely using the term for path management) and more importantly work. Many colleagues who have spent years in saudi tell that local people form queue in offices to leave at 4.25 to leave at 4.30, worse than even indian babus.
FYI Taiwan stock exchange: Taipei: $980 Bn, Population of Taiwan: 23 Mn. Product of taiwanese companies are used elsewhere

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 47907
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2017 05:58

Guys, I see no value being added except rebutting irrelevant facts here.

Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2509
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Kashi » 14 Nov 2017 06:04

Are there any concrete reports about the role of Rawheel in all of this?

If he's getting his hands the dirty on behalf of MBS, he would certainly leverage it for a quid-pro-quo when it comes to India. Should India be watchful?

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8604
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Nov 2017 06:30

Disappointed in the Eyeranians. Seem to have chickened out after just 1 abortive mijjile strike. Maybe KSA cities and airbases and oilfields have Iron Dome and Patriot shield?

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21735
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby SSridhar » 14 Nov 2017 07:11

kiranA, your arguments have become monotonous & stale. They have been rebutted. They add no value to the thread. So, stop posting further or risk a warning.

Everyone, no more discussion along these lines. Take it as a warning.

periaswamy
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby periaswamy » 14 Nov 2017 09:25

This mouthpiece for KSA is indicating that Hariri will return to Lebanon and then work on sidelining the Hezbollah on orders from his Saudi Masters, who seem to have threatened Hariri personally.

oped

The most important takeaway from the interview was that Saudi Arabia is outraged at Hezbollah’s involvement in Yemen. As Hariri correctly implied, Riyadh may never have liked this Iranian-backed militia before, but there is a big difference now — which is that “Saudis are dying” as a result of the war in Yemen.
As prime minister of a government that includes Hezbollah, Hariri could be held directly responsible for its hostile actions. And given that Hariri — whose late father, Rafik, was probably assassinated by Hezbollah — neither agrees with attacks on a fellow Arab country and major ally such as Saudi Arabia, nor accepts responsibility for the consequences; then it must be argued that it was Hezbollah, not Riyadh, that forced him to step down.


Hariri seems to have done the old " you can't fire me, I quit" trick by resigning pre-emptively because there is very little chance that he can follow KSA's diktats and act against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Author's opinion is that KSA will not overtly attack Lebanon or push for overt conflict, but that can only mean that KSA intends to destabilize Lebanon and other Iranian allies covertly.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Karthik S » 14 Nov 2017 09:35

UlanBatori wrote:Disappointed in the Eyeranians. Seem to have chickened out after just 1 abortive mijjile strike. Maybe KSA cities and airbases and oilfields have Iron Dome and Patriot shield?


KSA and Eyeran will never fight against each other directly. Eyeranians may have realized missile strike on KSA city will escalate things into direct confrontation. Despite their mastery at playing game of thrones in ME, am not too sure if they can afford a full scale war, Russian support notwithstanding.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Karthik S » 14 Nov 2017 09:37

BTW, I wonder what Turks are upto, after all the kingdom was born after breaking away from them (Ottoman). Isn't there anyone in Turkey who'd like to go back in time.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8604
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Nov 2017 18:27

I too get the feeling that Salman is crazy enough that he might launch against Tehran if the Houthis use any more long-range missiles against KSA cities. KSA's friends in DupleeCity and TelAviv would be delighted to have such a proxy war as revenge for their humiliation and frustration in Syria. So a good time for Teheran to lay low and maybe let Comrade Putin make the next chess move on Houthistan.

deejay
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3507
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby deejay » 14 Nov 2017 18:45

^Saudis have blocked the Yemen port. Houthis / Yemenis are facing a food shortage. Famine round the corner in Yemen.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3708
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Karthik S » 14 Nov 2017 19:03

Can food be supplied through Djibouti or Eritria? The gulf there is just 50 odd km.

Rudradev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2852
Joined: 06 Apr 2003 12:31

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Rudradev » 15 Nov 2017 06:43

So apparently Mohammed Bin Salman has his own pet rabid Wahhabi cleric. Just in case you thought anything was going to be different after his putsch.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story ... bia-215815

The Hottest Social Media Star in the Middle East Is a Radical Saudi Cleric

How Mohammed al-Arefe became the favorite preacher of ISIS recruits—and an ally of the Saudi government.

By HAROON ULLAH

November 10, 2017


It was another of those online religious videos, the kind the world has come to expect with weary repugnance. It told Muslims they were forbidden to offer holiday greetings to their non-Muslim neighbors and community. But it didn’t stop there. The video advocated that Shia Muslim charity groups should be closed down because they are “enemies.” This was not simply a run-of-the-mill display of wanton prejudice captured on a shaky, low-definition cellphone. It was a high-end production, shot in super-HD on state-of-the-art cameras. The footage featured an articulate gentleman dressed in a white religious robe, delivering his message with easy, everyday stories. The camera panned around the room to reveal an intimate setting, like his living room—a Middle Eastern version of FDR’s fireside chats.

Although few in the West would recognize the man in the video, he is perhaps the Middle East’s most popular social media personality, a dominant presence on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube and Snapchat.
Who is he? A celebrity? An actor? Is he the head of some Arab state? A folk singer like Amr Diab? A sports icon like Dina Al-Sabah?

Actually, the man in the video was none other than Mohammed al-Arefe, an extremist religious leader based in Saudi Arabia, a revered cleric with more than 19 million social media followers, and a likely reach of millions more. But raw numbers probably understate his influence. Arefe’s videos are famous, his influence legendary. He is prolific on multiple platforms, averaging four to five “Snap fatwas” a day, along with 12 tweets and seven Facebook posts, to millions of young people who adhere to his every word. Arefe’s messages are distributed so as to attract and mobilize niche, targeted audiences. (Spoiler alert: Arefe wasn’t arrested in the latest version of Saudi Sopranos last week.)

If Arefe’s videos were merely intolerant, they wouldn’t be so noteworthy—the Middle East is full of retrograde clerics who promote abhorrent views. New data from my book Digital World War, which builds a database of ISIS defectors and identifies views from potential recruits, demonstrates that his videos are likely one of the biggest reasons young people from Saudi Arabia and the Middle East are traveling to Syria to join ISIS and Jabhat al-Nusra. Using a technique called “exfluence” (which measures influence and exposure using mixed methods) I found that youth cited Arefe more than any other key influencer. Yet he’s largely gone virtually unnoticed in the Western media. How did a little-known religious leader, in a country full of religious leaders, a country that can censors its media and can arrest dozens of powerful political and business elites for “corruption” without filing any charges, quietly become one of the most influential clerics in the Middle East?

Indeed, just who is Mohammed al-Arefe?

He was born in a small suburb outside of Riyadh in 1970. He wanted to study medicine but was dissuaded by his parents and extended family members. Like many with his lower-class background, he turned to religious studies, which is usually the second or even third choice among those that go into the field. Arefe studied at Muhammad Ben Saud Islamic University, which grew out of the Riyadh Sharia Institute in the 1950s, getting his bachelor degree in theology and later a master’s in contemporary doctrines. But more importantly than his degrees was where he studied—Ben Saud was not considered a top place to study these subjects. The better-known scholars attended more-established schools in Medina and Mecca or went abroad to Al-Azhar, in Egypt. Arefe developed a chip on his shoulder; he wanted to be considered a top religious scholar, but his pedigree and background effectively blocked him from rising higher than a neighborhood leader. He was destined to be a small-town religious preacher, buried at the bottom of a religious hierarchy in the most orthodox country in the world.

But in the late 1980s, when he was in his 20s, Arefe started noticing a trend among his peers. They would pass around audio tapes of lectures and recitations, even smuggle audio tapes from other countries. These bombastic religious recordings, frowned upon by the Saudi religious establishment, were like baseball cards for many young students, to be traded, coveted and kept under lock and key. The viral nature of this extremist samizdat left an impression on Arefe, as he realized how new media and technology could generate an audience—and with it, power and authority.

Years before the advent of YouTube and other video websites, Arefe, started recording lectures on audiotape and with crude, point-and-shoot video cameras. Since his low status prevented him from growing larger congregations at the mosques, he saw the internet as a way to circumvent the religious hierarchies. Slowly, the videos started to make Arefe a recognizable name. He understood that what worked in an online video was quite different than what worked in a 50-minute live lecture. Body language mattered much more, as did interesting stories. Much of preaching was performance. And performance meant gaining and holding attention.
Arefe likes a good controversy. Though his firestorms sometimes cost him would-be supporters, his ratings and followers have only increased. Before embarking on a trip to Europe in 2012, he proclaimed that Danish women slept around so much that the majority did not know who fathered their children. The backlash from Middle Eastern and Western media was intense, but he did not apologize. Arefe has repeatedly sounded off against the West in homophobic and anti-Semitic diatribes. He has labeled the Iraq-based Shia cleric Ayatollah Sistani an “infidel” and has constantly preached that most Shias are “evil.” And he’s said that Muslims have been distracted from “conquering” the lands of the infidels by the U.S.’s war aims. True believers, Arefe expounds, should cut off the arms and legs of the enemy, break their skulls and ‘cause “bloodshed.” His ideology can be hard to distinguish from that of al Qaeda and ISIS.

Arefe works openly in Saudi Arabia—a country that whips bloggers for criticizing the government—but in 2014, he was banned from Britain by the Home Office after a series of incendiary sermons in Cardiff, Birmingham and London. A Home Office spokesperson called him “a threat to our society.”

He is also a danger to Saudi society who is inspiring a whole new group of preacher acolytes to spread his extreme views—exactly the sort of rabble-rouser the Saudi royal family should view as a threat to the kingdom’s stability and future success. Yet his soaring popularity insulates him from government pressure. Arefe has strategically positioned himself to speak against “the establishment”—as in, mainstream Saudi religious scholars, who tend to toe the government line—and the West, using rhetoric his followers eat up like hard candy. But he’s also proven useful to the government at times—most recently when he lashed out at Qatar for the ongoing Gulf crisis, which is feuding with Saudi Arabia over its support for the Muslim Brotherhood and friendly relations with Iran. Arefe’s comments won acclaim from Saudi political leaders, who appreciated his remark that protecting the kingdom from geopolitical adversaries like Qatar is a “ religious obligation.”

So, while many princes were swept up in Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman’s corruption crackdown this past week, Arefe has not been targeted, indicating the power he wields within the kingdom and beyond. The crown prince says he wants to promote moderate Islam and modernize the Saudi economy. But the Bill Gates of Saudi Arabia—entrepreneurial billionaire Prince Alwaleed bin Talal—was arrested, while the Tony Robbins of extremism—Mohammed al-Arefe—remains free to spread his bile across the Middle East.

As Marshall McLuhan said in the 1960s, “among the peoples of the world strange new vortices of power will appear unexpectedly.” Arefe’s path to fame and influence through the vortex of social media has made him powerful indeed. In a recent tweet, he referenced Robert Frost’s “Road Less Taken” poem with an image showing the “path to success.” Unfortunately, for many of his millions of followers, that path is becoming the norm


periaswamy
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby periaswamy » 15 Nov 2017 06:45

Rudradev:So apparently Mohammed Bin Salman has his own pet rabid Wahhabi cleric. Just in case you thought anything was going to be different after his putsch.


Exactly. The clerics he has a hand in arresting a few months ago (I posted a link earlier) were the less rabid ones, not the rabid salafists who have been backing the house of Saud. MBS's pretensions of "moderating Islam" sounds like a load of bollix to me -- more likely he is just playing the western media and press with pretensions of "moderate islam". He is not making any effort to remove and replace the very clergy who provide "divine sanction" for MBS's rule -- doing such a thing would be a litmus test of whether he is the "reformer" that he is pretending to be, or whether he is just being another deceptive little jihadi turd like the rest of the royalty before him.

periaswamy
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 07 Jul 2017 20:50

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby periaswamy » 17 Nov 2017 09:29

Well well, look who is professing undying loyalty and fraandship to the Saudis

Eleven Dingding offers support for Saudi arabia amid regional uncertainty

Vacuous sucking up to the saudis with Chinese characteristics. What's the end goal in mind here -- oil supply to chinese military ports in the region?
Shades of tall and deep friendship with the saudis.

Speaking by telephone, Xi told Salman that China’s determination to deepen strategic cooperation with Saudi Arabia will not waver, no matter how the international and regional situation changes, China’s Foreign Ministry said late on Thursday.

“China supports Saudi Arabia’s efforts to safeguard national sovereignty and realise greater development,” the ministry cited Xi as saying, without elaborating.


China has had to tread a fine line between Riyadh and Tehran as Beijing has close ties with Iran as well. The ministry statement said Xi and Salman also exchanged views on international and regional issues of common concern, but gave no details.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 893
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Postby Manish_P » 17 Nov 2017 11:29

periaswamy wrote:
Exactly. The clerics he has a hand in arresting a few months ago (I posted a link earlier) were the less rabid ones, not the rabid salafists who have been backing the house of Saud. MBS's pretensions of "moderating Islam" sounds like a load of bollix to me -- more likely he is just playing the western media and press with pretensions of "moderate islam". He is not making any effort to remove and replace the very clergy who provide "divine sanction" for MBS's rule -- doing such a thing would be a litmus test of whether he is the "reformer" that he is pretending to be, or whether he is just being another deceptive little jihadi turd like the rest of the royalty before him.


+1 Just the usual true-to-script jihadi Sultan/Caliph/Dictator/Despot

It would be in our long term interests if there is no peace in the land of peace


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Karthik S, punitrpatel, TKiran and 30 guests