Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

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Ambar
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Ambar »

shiv wrote: The problem is that Islam is used by Muslims like a panty to cover and protect stuff that can range from innocent to vulgar. Even if a despot has power and he does dirty stuff in the name of Islam most Muslims just shut up and swallow it because the alternative is to be called an enemy of Islam and be killed. This is where the Saudis are. A lot of Muslims in the world don't necessarily agree with the Saudis but they can do fug all about it. So they will curse the Saudis in private.
Shivji,

The majority among muslims ( and regular Saudis included ) don't consider the 'house of Saud' to be synonymous with Islam.The royal family knows this all too well and hence the mollycoddling with the clergy, it is a very delicate equilibrium.As for the 'dirty stuff', yes, there's plenty of that among the Saudi royals but when that breaches a certain threshold, the powerful clergy then steps in to curb the 'excesses'. We saw this during King Saud's last days before Faisal took over, and we again saw the criticism of Fahd in the late 80s and 90s.

As for the gist of this thread, India's problem is not the Saudi royals but with money that flows from Saudi mosques to our shores.This money manifests into countless Wahabi madrassas and mosques.

Oil is a scarce commodity, and no matter how much the Saudis croak about pushing the supply to 20000 barrels a day if required, the truth is they are struggling to produce 10K barrels.India's per capita consumption of oil is less than 1 barrel ( compared to China's 9 and US' a staggering 24 barrels!), but as our economy grows so will the demand for oil. Can we afford to 'bitchslap' every country that directly or indirectly picks our bone? No. And a big 'no' with those countries on which we'll rely even more in the years to come.

The realistic option is to take the gloves off on hawala peddlers who keep this 'oil money' faucet open in India,wake up those sleeping clowns at Enforcement Directorate to track the money from the ME, and shutdown those madrassas that preach hatred.

Saudi money is as much a threat to the 'infidel' west as it is to India.US and Britain have just done a better job in keeping close tab with the money that flows from KSA, and on those Islamists who take wahibbism a bit too seriously, we haven't done a great job in either of those.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Saudi Arabia supports Pakistan due to two reasons
1) Ideological
2) Pragmatic

Ideological because Pakistan remains one of the few modern nation-state to established on the principle of Islam, the so called "refugee of Muslims of the Indian sub-continent."
Pragmatic because of Pakistani nukes and the ability of Pakistanis to provide canon fodder to the KSA in terms of armed personnel and workers.

It would be ironic that if a nuclear exchange would take place across the Persian gulf or between the Persians and the Arabs, both would have got the nukes from the same source Pakistan.

But it is not Pakistan and the Paki-Saudi link which will be main concern whereas KSA would be concerned. Rather going forward there are going to be two main security concerns as far as Saudi Arabia is concerned
1) The Wahhabi Ideology
2) China.

The Wahhabi Ideology, which the KSA espouses is a fundamentalist one. And its export by KSA in forms of money donations, support to madrassas, etc is harmful to India. India being a secular nation and the homeland for various faiths is a direct challenge to this ideology. Add to the fact that till now KSA had been ruled by a gang of brothers. The brothers would last only so long. What would happen then? This uncertainty mixed with Wahhabi Ideology would be a potent mix, 10 times more serious than the so called loose-Pakistani nukes. If Iranian revolution is anything to go by than the transition of KSA from a theological nation to a modern nation state will not be without its hiccups. Pakistan remains a nuisance to the planet. Saudi Arabia remains valuable, due to its oil and presence of the two primary shrines of Islamic faith. Where as Oil is concerned, Iraq+Kuwait have sufficient oil reserves to match KSA oil reserves, but loss or disruption of KSA oil production would result in another oil shock and probably another great depression.

China is the world's 2nd largest consumer of oil. In the coming decade, i.e. 2010-2019 it is expected to overtake US as the largest consumer of oil. Per-capita consumption of US will remain higher than PRC, but China will still be the largest consumer. Quite a significant chunk of this oil will be provided by KSA and Iraq. Once this happens will KSA continue to give primarcy to the Saudi-US relation or will it equate Saudi-Sino relationship to the same level.
China provided Saudi Arabia with the CSS-2 missiles, having ranges of 2400 kms, which puts western India within striking distance of Saudi Arabia. Since the accuracy of CSS-2 missiles is allegedly to be horrid, it is only suitable for nuclear weapons. KSA had said that these missiles were for targeting Israel but the real target was Iran. Whether the nukes for these missiles would be supplied by Pakistan or China is a motto point. The main concern is that we can expect a PRC-Pakistan-KSA axis, with KSA providing the oil/fuel, PRC providing finance and Pakistan the cannon fodder. In fact PLANs forays into Indian Ocean and its "string of pearls" strategy is driven by its middle-east oil dependence. If India can be contained by the same strategy than it is the icing on the cake as far as PRC is concerned.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Singha »

one of the engagement things being tried out to attract large helpings of arab capital into indian economy (as opposed to buying up property in london or just stashing it away into a bank) - read the last para.

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2010 ... iah-index/
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Ambar wrote: The majority among muslims ( and regular Saudis included ) don't consider the 'house of Saud' to be synonymous with Islam.
I am not sure. I don't think Muslims in Bihar would appreciate if you criticize Saudi royal family. (Added later: I mean they have great respect/reverence for Saudis.)

It is another matter that these (Bihari/Indian/Paki/...) Muslims would be treated badly in Saudi Arabia.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by RajeshA »

IMO, there is no need for Indians to deny the fact, that Saudi ideology, money and geo-political orientation have had a very adverse effect on India's national interests.

However two things need to be considered:
  1. We should not look at Saudi Arabia just as a black box - Sauds+Wahhabism+Oil+Money+Pakistan+Anti-Kafir = BAD+BAD+BAD. We need to go a step further, and try to understand the internal dynamics of Saudi Arabia.
  2. From amongst the 3½ Friends of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia is the weak link. It is not USA, it is certainly not China, and Japan/UK are bound to US policy. From amongst all players, it is the Sauds, that can be won over most easily, and be brought to dump Pakistan.
The question is not whether we condemn the Saudis for their role in hurting India, which we all do, but whether the Saudi situation can used to push India's national interests in the future.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by abhishek_sharma »

This is also a good book on Saudi Arabia.

http://www.amazon.com/Prophets-Princes- ... 470182571/
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by abhishek_sharma »

The only good thing from the climate change problem is that it would destroy Saudi economy if we start using electric cars etc. In fact, Saudis demanded compensation if others reduce their oil consumption. :rotfl:
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by shyamd »

The sheer influence that KSA has in TSP is probably higher than Washingtons power. KSA owns everything. If you want to stop terror, it is KSA you need to speak to, they have the power to tell Kayani to stop.

Read the following posts on the KSA - TSP dynamics.
Link1
shyamd wrote:
ramana wrote:Shyamd, re the KSA and nooks interesting info. Apparently it was joint project of KSA, TSP and PRc with Nelson's eye from US. Now things are changing and the heat is on KSA. There were reports of proximate security cover for the assets in Al Araby.
Thing is Musharraf visit had nothing to do with nukes - it was all speculation that they had made nook agreements. Both IOL and DNW confirm that there is no nuke deal in place as TSP did not agree to share the tech.

However, both confirm that there is support from TSP - i.e. training of scientists in Kahuta. Musharraf sent some of his Long Range missiles and sensitive nook material to Saudi.

Saudi Aim was to replace Washington military umbrella.

More Saudi's visited Pakistan in 2004 to further deepen the bond. The deputy defmin of KSA paid a discreet visit to Kahuta too. There were talks which centered on training for a team of Saudi nuclear physicists at the Kahuta.
KSA does not have enough F-15 pilots. So traditionally TSPAF pilots fill the gap. They are currently flying F-15's confirms IOL. As KSA bankrolls TSP, in return TSP send their best of the best from the Navy and Air Force. These pilots will be trained in the US and in US base in Spain.
2nd July 2010
DNW report on King Abdullah - Obama meeting 29th June.

Obama told King A to stop highlevel intel contact between KSA and Israeli military and intel officers. King A - said I don't know much about it and had I known you would bring this up, I would have brought Prince Muqrin (GID chief) who handles Israel relations.

King A told Obama that diplomacy/sanctions is useless for Iran. He just told Obama that the sanctions are easy to get around. Obama said you better drop this project, because any strike on iran will have to use american radars etc, and we won't provide that.

2nd major issue that Obama questioned King A on was the nuclear plans of KSA: King A dodged questions. Then Obama asked about KSA-TSP nook relations because US intel discovered that AQ Khan has been visiting Jeddah over 50 times in the past 3 years. He does have some business interests there. Obama said how can I convince Syria and Iran not to pursue a nook program if you are going to enrich uranium too. Obama told him it puts a spanner in the works to get rid of nukes and non proliferation.

(my comment: As I have revealed before that DNW thinks that KSA nook prog is in Khamis Mushayt military city, in the south of the country. It has never been penetrated by US intel. This city is important because the Zaidi rebellion was being managed by KSA command in khamis mushyt. And a Zaidi victory would mean getting control of nook assets there. hence a big danger/risk for Ksa, so KSA had to give up and allow the Iranians to win - brokered peace via Rigi handover).
IOL and DNW both confirm that TSP and KSA DO NOT HAVE a nuke transfer deal. Both sources say KSA only has old chinese missiles for delivery. TSP refuse to share with Riyadh - this is contrary to IOL and past DNW reports.
This changed recently when Ghauri II's were transferred.
India is being quite realistic here on Kashmir, we know KSA calls the shots in TSP and can force them to do things. There is nothing wrong with talking to Riyadh on TSP matters.

Basically, I think KSA wants ties to be upgraded to (in MEA Parlance) Strategic ties. Similar to what we have with certain nations, such as Oman.

Its not a secret that the US, NATO want KSA to broker peace with Taliban and sort out Af-Pak. So, both NSA's meeting and hammering out ideas are a very good step forward. Intelligence ties are good, India already has access to Qatari databases on extremists etc. Having KSA on board will mean access to Kuwaiti databases, we know that extremist funding originates from KSA and Kuwait mainly.

Just the nature of this visit and the length of stay, really says a lot. We don't know exactly who has turned up for this visit, apart from this article. We also don't know where and what did Prince Salman and entourage visit, apart from JM uni, Mumbai etc. There is MUCH more left unsaid about this visit, I think its extremely clear. I really think we could see Indian nuke umbrella over KSA.

Let the dust settle and lets read up more, but just the nature and quietness of the trip suggests, that the prince and company were upto much more than giving speeches at Chambers of Commerce. I do feel that KSA is probably looking at sending its officers to India for training, possibly guessing Naval related?
TSP is expected to win a lot of subcontracting work for the MIKSA (Border monitoring) contract in KSA. Both KSA and TSP identified 50 companies to get contracts. This is one of the ways KSA subsidises TSP.
Role as mercenaries:
Had an interesting conversation with a KSA based RAPE. Folks, Is TSP navy deployed in sea of Aden on anti piracy missions?

Was informed of TSP role in operations against Houthi rebels. TSP F-16's have been involved in operations there. Apparently, KSA MI gave incorrect co-ordinates to TSPAF, one village on KSA side had KSA army there, and coordinates was for a village on the Yemeni side. KSA accidentally gave the wrong coordinates, co-ordinates for the KSA side village. So F-16 bombs the wrong village and they couldnt establish communications with the KSA team on the ground apparently. KSA offered to pay double to TSP.
It has recently undergone major changes itself and is still changing. Its correct that KSA-TSP ties are too close, but thats precisely why we should engage with someone who can actually do something about TSP rather than talk to TSP directly. We don't have anything to lose, and more to gain if we can actually make it difficult for Dawood and SIMI types to take refuge in KSA. Forbes says LeT finance chief had been arrested and deported.
He and all the strategy wallah's know who funds TSP and calls shots in TSP. Its none other than the KSA. So, India-KSA relations are needed to stop TSP from conducting terror activities. Hence, the remark, pressure to KSA can help solve the Kashmir issue believe it or not. Or they can push TSP to solve the terror problem. But KSA will not be the mediator in public, it is still a bilateral issue, KSA is a big pressure point for TSP as is the US.
KSA - TSP OCtober 2003 deal:
Some old stuff on Saudi Pak strategic deals signed in October 2003: All signed under Washingtons blessings. This was the famous one incident where there was media speculation that a nuclear pact was signed between the 2 nations. Apparently this wasnt the case.
1 - 80,000 Paki troops can be deployed in KSA if needed
2 - 1000 Paki's stationed in bases near riyad, Jeddah etc
3 - 11 arms and equipment dumps are to be pre-positioned on Saudi territory
4 - Joint Military Command at Hafr Al Bateen.
5- 400 Saudi Pilots will go to Pindi for training with F-16's and F-15's. i.e. in an event of a war, Pak will be flying eagles I think.
6 - Back Paki defence industry by purchasing Al Khalid Tanks
7 - Riyadh has an option to purchase Agosta Submarine delivered to Pak by French
8 - Musharraf sent some of his Long Range missiles and sensitive nook material to Saudi.

Saudi Aim was to replace Washington military umbrella.


More Saudi's visited Pakistan in 2004 to further deepen the bond. The deputy defence min of KSA paid a discreet visit to Kahuta too. There were talks which centered on training for a team of Saudi nuclear physicists at the Khan Research Laboratories in Kahuta
This should give you a rough idea on where things stand between KSA and TSP.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by shiv »

abhishek_sharma wrote: It is another matter that these (Bihari/Indian/Paki/...)
Interesting classification sharmaji. Bihari, Indian and Paki. Yo all you Biharis - listen up.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by abhishek_sharma »

I meant only Arabs get special respect in Saudi Arabia. People from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/SL/many other countries are treated like cattle. No disrespect intended.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by shyamd »

abhishek_sharma wrote:I meant only Arabs get special respect in Saudi Arabia.
I wonder if the non saudi's will agree with you lol. Next time you bump into a non saudi, ask them what they think of saudi's.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by RajeshA »

shyamd wrote:I really think we could see Indian nuke umbrella over KSA.
If Saudi Arabia is willing to support Indian Military's modernization and buildup program and stop funding for Wahhabi ideology in India and her neighborhood, then India should be forthcoming
  • with troops on the ground to provide security to the monarchy, the Hejaz (for the monarchy), Oil infrastructure, and the cities
  • with troops to fight Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula
  • with naval forces to guard Saudi Arabia's coastline
  • with a nuclear umbrella for Saudi Arabia against its enemies
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by shyamd »

Question is are they funding wahabi ideology today? Things are changing under King A. Will someone please research funding currently for wahabi ideology?

I wouldn't like our soldiers to be fighting in a war that is not in our interests. We are not mercenaries. But we should provide military advice, they can purchase our equipment. Intelligence support for operations. These are value added stuff, our troops are not cannon fodder. Our mountain warfare skills are the best in the world, its these sorts of skills that we should SELL to the KSA for $$$'s.

Guarding oil installations isn't so bad I suppose. We need a naval base on the eastern coast, it allows us to protect the Hormuz and the KSA at the same time. Market our equipment too.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by RajeshA »

shyamd wrote:I wouldn't like our soldiers to be fighting in a war that is not in our interests. We are not mercenaries.
Exactly, it is a question of how we define our interests.

I gave a scenario in the pdf, where the House of Sauds becomes one of the cornerstones of our national interest.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by brihaspati »

shiv wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote: It is another matter that these (Bihari/Indian/Paki/...)
Interesting classification sharmaji. Bihari, Indian and Paki. Yo all you Biharis - listen up.
Shivji,
Bihari Muslims or Purbi Muslims as sometimes they are vaguely referred to - have a particularly wonderful reputation in the eastern parts. They were at the forefront of '71 atrocities on Bengalis in then East Pakistan. They tended to identify over strongly with Pakistan, tried to have a greater proportion of Urdu in their daily bread, and were known to have tried to show off their faith through overt loyalty to Arabic symbols and symbolism.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Kamboja »

My understanding of KSA dynamics is that the monarchy is petrified at the prospect of greater democracy or a deepening of the power of the mullahs within the country -- both would mean a limit or end of the power of the royal family.

So the compromise they reached for several years now seems to have been a collusion with the mullahs -- both have combined powers to crush democracy (and women's and minority rights), and meanwhile the mullahs are given a free hand to turn their energies outwards -- i.e. by exporting their fanatic nutjob cult of Wahhabism to every corner of the globe. The reason this is a problem is, of course, that those exports of Wahhabism have been fueled by petrodollars.

It's truly disturbing to hear some of the stories my Muslim friends from around the world tell me -- a Bosnian friend of mine who fled from Sarajevo during the war was relating how when she left the country it was pretty much as European as the rest of the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and being a Bosnian Muslim was just a label. Her mother and aunts drank wine, wore skirts, went to dances and worked in offices. When she went back recently she found that a new mosque complex had been set up in her old neighborhood, funded as she found out by some Saudi nobility, and the mullah was busy preaching the same victim-complex conspiracy theories of 'Islam vs. the world'. People seemed to be listening quite seriously. And walking on the streets she found far fewer women, and many of those who were visible had adopted the headscarf. In short, KSA's barbarism was well on its way to extinguishing civilization in Bosnia.

This is just one instance but I think it reflects the terrible effect that KSA is having all across the Muslim world. Because they are the ones with the money, they offer to rebuild damaged infrastructure and other 'developmental' construction, including of course mosques -- but they also seem to take their most fanatic and psychotic mullahs and wannabe-mullahs and, rather than have them stay in KSA and create problems for the monarchy, send them off to preach hatred to vulnerable minds in all parts of the world where there are Muslims to listen. Their own royals and nobility with the Jihad-bug are also free to send petrodollars to support jihadi organizations overseas -- all is halal as long as it's not fomenting trouble within KSA.

In short the Saudis are locked into this pact with Wahhabism and can't break free, so they do their best to force Wahhabism's energies outwards onto an innocent world rather than deal with it internally. It's cowardly, evil and insidious and I think it explains a lot of the radicalization of the Muslim world in the past 2-3 decades.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by brihaspati »

So how far has a whole regime, in KSA, changed within just 7 years? How far people here are confident that decades of Wahabi (Salafi) training and conditioning of the society is going to be overturned in 5-6 years? How far do people reckon that a single King A will be able to turn around a momentum that has now generated its own driving and sustaining mechanism?

The following is an extract from a thesis which can possibly be disparaged as coming from obviously biased against Islam, prejudiced against KSA, its king, its religion, its charities, its connections to terror and a certain world goal etc because of the affiliations of the author, and perhaps even because it is masters thesis. But if inclined please do try and discount the claims and quotations :

edocs.nps.edu/npspubs/scholarly/theses/ ... Reddan.pdf
Up until 2003, Osama bin Laden had been allowed to collect millions of dollars in funds from supporters in the Kingdom although the government of Saudi Arabia termed him a renegade and issued a (very weakly executed) warrant for his arrest.70 While allowed to operate freely in Saudi Arabia, he publicly called for charitable contributions toward Al-Qaida and other radical groups.71
Although Saudi charities have been part of humanitarian efforts around the globe, a senate investigative commission states in 2003 that “Saudi Arabia is present at every stage of Al-Qaeda financing, but primarily as the major source of funding.”72 The Saudis up through 2003 also passed protection money onto Osama bin Laden, and charities were the conduit it which it occurred.73 The 9/11 Commission termed Saudi Arabia as a “fertile [area for] fundraising groups” and implicated extreme religious views, charitable giving and little legal oversight as part of the problem.74 So how has Saudi Arabia, a friend of the United States, become involved in directly financing terrorism? Wahhabism.

A PBS Frontline analysis finds:
For more than two centuries, Wahhabism has been Saudi Arabia's dominant faith. It is an austere form of Islam that insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran. Strict Wahhabis believe that all those who do not practice their form of Islam are heathens and enemies. Critics say that Wahhabism's rigidity has led it to misinterpret and distort Islam, pointing to extremists such as Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. Wahhabism's explosive growth began in the 1970s when Saudi charities started funding Wahhabi schools (madrassas) and mosques from Islamabad to Culver City, California.75

As we will see, we cannot discount the influence of strict religious beliefs around the globe, even in the most secular of societies. It is an enabler to humans to carry out extraordinary acts of kindness and terror.

Ali al-Ahmed, a Shi’s Muslim who grew up in Saudi Arabia describes for us the religious curriculum he grew up with on the Arabian Peninsula. According to what he experienced, there are two groups of people in the world, the Salafis (Wahhabis) Muslims those who are the winners and will go to heaven. The other group is a conglomeration of all other people, no matter what their faith, who shall be hated, persecuted, or even killed, based on their status as non-believers, polytheist, or one who is not a “pure” Muslim. One interesting point that Ali makes in his interview, is that although Prince Nayif of Saudi Arabia condemned Osama bin Laden actions, they did not condemn the message he was sending.76 We must remember that Osama bin Laden grew up in Saudi Arabia within a very wealthy family and attended schools teaching the Wahhabism form of Islam.77 He is an example of Wahhabism’s extremist membership.

Mai Yamani, an anthropologist in Saudi society states:
I think that the new mood, the new trend, especially after the Gulf War, has become for all these neo-Wahhabis ... [is to use] Islam ... as a platform for political ideas and activities, using Islam to legitimize political, economic, social behavior. These people have been brought up in a country where Islam legitimizes everything. And they have used the teachings from the religious establishment, but became more political in expressing dissent and criticism of the regime.78
Here in lies the unique vulnerability to Islamic charities, the Wahhabi teaching connects terrorism to fundamental Islamic beliefs and creates either a feeling of empowerment or guilt in followers, which results in donations specifically to false or compromised charities.

An authority on Islamic fundamentalism, Vali Nasr, states that there is a connection between the fundamentalism of Islamic/Muslim terrorist groups and the fundamentalism of the Wahhabi. The connection has been growing very, very strong in the past 20 years, and particularly in the past ten years. The dominant school of Islam with which the Taliban associate -- which is known as the Deobandi school — is very prominent in Afghanistan and also in wide areas of Pakistan. Northern India has increasingly gravitated toward Wahhabi teaching, and has very, very strong organizational ties with various Wahhabi religious leaders.79

The Deobandi school is located near Delhi, India, and teaches a fundamental form of Islam that believes Muslims have fallen away from the faith due to secularism.80
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by brihaspati »

There is also allegation about Lasshkar-e-jhangavi in Indian controlled Kashmir being Saudi Wahabi sponsored. The Frontline mag discussion has a link response by the editors.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by brihaspati »

More from here about the possibility of mindset change from the Saudi establishment:
http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/tabid/66 ... fault.aspx

Saudi Prince Khaled al-Faysal, the governor of the ‘Asir region, admitted in an interview on Al-Arabiyya TV on July 14, 2004, that ideological extremism controls Saudi Arabia’s educational system.[12] This statement demonstrate the fact of the unchanged Saudi policy three years after the September 11 attacks in the USA and one year after the beginning of the counter radicalization campaign that was launched inside Saudi Arabia in 2003.

The Muslim World League, the official umbrella organization of some of the most influential Saudi charities operating inside the kingdom and around the world, had, in 2004, posted an old religious edict issued by its Islamic jurisprudence committee dating back to 27 June 1983. This edict allowed and encouraged the use of Zakat(charitable) donations for Jihad, and Da’awa activities, noting that the use of funds for Jihad bi-el Mal (Jihad with money-economic Jihad) is needed to confront the western cultural attack on Muslims by the enemies of Allah, the atheists, the Jews and the Christians.[14] Another old religious edict from 17 October 1987 was posted on 29 November 2004 condoning the use of Zakat donations to be used for Jihad in Palestine.[15]
[....]
As of September 2003, Saudi clerics were featured prominently on Hamas websites as providing the religious justification for suicide bombings. Of 16 religious leaders cited by Hamas, Saudis are the largest national group backing these attacks. Saudi Arabia’s Minister for Islamic Affairs, Sheikh Saleh Al al-Sheikh, had condoned them: “The suicide bombings are permitted...the victims are considered to have died a martyr’s death.”[25]

A compilation of Saudi religious edicts published on Hamas’ web site in 2001 by three prominent Saudi religious authoritative scholars (Sheikh Hamud al 'Uqla al-Shu'aybi, Sheikh Hamed bin Abdullah Al 'Aali and Sheikh Suleiman Al 'Alwan), together with the Saudi national Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdullah Al Saif, the Chechen Mujahideen spiritual leader, issued their Islamic ruling and advise in sanctioning and the Islamic justifications of the suicide terrorism phenomenon.[26]
[...]
As of September 2003, Saudi clerics were featured prominently on Hamas websites as providing the religious justification for suicide bombings. Of 16 religious leaders cited by Hamas, Saudis are the largest national group backing these attacks. Saudi Arabia’s Minister for Islamic Affairs, Sheikh Saleh Al al-Sheikh, had condoned them: “The suicide bombings are permitted...the victims are considered to have died a martyr’s death.”[25]
[...]
n Saudi Arabia, strict Internet filtering and firewall systems operated by the KSCAT governmental committee[32] turn a blind eye to extreme radical Islamic web sites. Although the Saudi government published a 2001 decree limiting illegal content on Saudi web sites,[33] its own official governmental Wahhabi Da'awa continued to disseminate its purist strict ideology.

There is some irony in the fact that the most vocal and popular proponents of efforts directed at the Islamization of the West and de-legitimization of its values, either operate from within its boundaries or are inspired by Arab regimes, mainly the Saudi which, officially preaches for multi-faith dialogue, engaging de radicalization efforts and is dependent on American support for its survival.

There are Saudi several Saudi government websites that continue to espouse extremist and incendiary statements. The website al-islam.com which is the official website of the Saudi Arabia Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘awa and Guidance, is one such website.[34] The Saudi Ministry website presents 21 Hadiths, which discuss the day of resurrection and the obligation of Muslims to wage Jihad and the merits of martyrdom.[35] Although the website offers Hadiths on a variety of different subjects—not all referring specifically to the jihad—it is clear that these statements praise and encourage the jihad. For example:" I heard Allah's Apostle saying, The example of a Mujahid in Allah's Cause -- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause -- is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty".[36]

In addition to posting religiously incendiary material, the website of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘awa and Guidance has a link to the website of Sheikh Abd Al Aziz Bin Baz, the late Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia. Bin Baz was the chief sanctioned voice of the Saudi kingdom. Bin Baz himself has backed militant confrontations with the West. In his book "The Ideological Attack", he repeatedly claims that there is a Zionist and “Christian crusader” plot against Islam.

The English version of the website [37] features in “about us” section which claims that one of its purposes is keeping in touch with Muslims and non-Muslims through Sheikh Bin Baz’s approach in all parts of the world, to demonstrate the humanitarian aspect of the Islamic faith and address it to all mankind. That will only be possible by the reinforcement of the approach of tolerance and moderation called for by Sheikh Bin Baz during his life or via his books and lectures after his death. Yet, despite the message of “tolerance and moderation” in English, the parallel Arabic site of binbaz.org continues to post an article entitled, “What is meant by Jihad?,” wherein Bin Baz states:
“It was proven that the prophet -- peace and blessings of Allah be upon him -- collected the Jizya [skull tax] from the Magi of Hajr, so these three kinds of Kufar (Infidels), the Jews, Christians and the Magi, it was written that they should pay Jizya(obligatory skull taxation posed on non Muslims), It is a duty that Jihad should be waged against them and that they be fought when there is a capability until they convert to Islam or pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued, as for others ; it's a duty -- according to the scholars -- to fight them until they convert because the prophet -- peace and blessings of Allah be upon him -- fought the Arabs until they converted in multitudes to the religion of Allah and they were not asked to pay Jizya.[38]”

Similarly, in a section on the website called “Articles and Fatwas,” the following Bin Baz writing is posted: “Jihad in Allah's cause is among the best offerings, and the great obedience, indeed it is the best offering by the givers and what to competitors (to satisfy Allah) competed to do after the (religious) duties. That's only because it results in the victory of the believers, the lifting of the faith higher, the suppression of the infidels and the hypocrites and the facilitation of spreading Islam among people of the universe.”

One final example of Bin Baz’s views on Christians and Jews featured on the Arabic binbaz.org website comes from his article, “Warning Against the Schemes of the Enemies,” in which he states that Allah has foretold us about it in His glorious book when He said ‘Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can.’ The Almighty also said ‘Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.

The Saudi Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘awa and Guidance web site has a link to the website of the late Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Othaymeen[39] regarded as one of the top Salafi authorities, he died in 2000. His teachings and edicts are still venerated by fundamentalist Muslims in the Arab world and in Muslim communities in the West. Ibnothaimeen.com users come from these countries: 39.4% Saudi Arabia, 14.8% Egypt, 9.7% Algeria, 5.8% Libya, 5.4% Kuwait, 0.6% France and Malaysia.[40]
[...]
The Presidency for Scientific Research and Religious Edicts (Dar Al-Ifta’) web site

The Saudi regime playing both sides regarding their “de radicalization campaign” was reflected in the Saudi Daily online Arab News. Parallel and simultaneously to the Al Sakeenah de radicalization campaign, the Saudi online "Arab News" reported on 7 October 2007 that the Riyadh-based official institution, the Presidency for Scientific Research and Religious Edicts (Dar Al-Ifta’), which consists of prominent Islamic scholars that issue Fatwas, have set up a portal website for its religious rulings. [104] According to the announcement, the site http://www.alifta.com/Default.aspx provides quick access to the Fatwas issued by Dar Al-Ifta’, which is affiliated to the Saudi official Council of Senior Islamic Scholars headed by the Saudi Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh-the minister of Islamic Affairs Da’awa and Guidance in the Saudi government.

Initial translated summaries of Fatwas in Dar Al Ifta' Arabic web site [...]
A call from Sheikh Bin Baz to Muslims to Muslim governments and the Muslim people to assist their brothers in Palestine, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Somalia, the Philippine, India with funds and arms.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by SBajwa »

by Abhishek

I am not sure. I don't think Muslims in Bihar would appreciate if you criticize Saudi royal family. (Added later: I mean they have great respect/reverence for Saudis.)

It is another matter that these (Bihari/Indian/Paki/...) Muslims would be treated badly in Saudi Arabia.
not necessarily. Majority of Indian/Pakistani muslims are still not "wahabi" They do believe in

1. Going to Mazaars.
2. Singing Qawallis.
3. Revering the number 786.
4. Indian type celebrations for the Islamic festivals.

So!! the real question is how Wahabiism is going to change Indian/Pakistani muslims to become Arabian muslim! Through Deoband and other islamic schools they are trying their best through terror, education (madrassa) route. I think if this trend is left unchecked in 50+ years we will see that

Chisti, Nizamudden, Sufi Mazaars are only for non-muslims (or newly converted people).
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by sanjaykumar »

Chisti, Nizamudden, Sufi Mazaars are only for non-muslims (or newly converted people).


Many Hindus go to these shrines but it strikes me I have never seen a Sikh there.

I myself have visited the shrine in Agra for cultural reasons. A little too ornate butresses but quite magnificent.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by shiv »

brihaspati wrote:
shiv wrote:
Interesting classification sharmaji. Bihari, Indian and Paki. Yo all you Biharis - listen up.
Shivji,
Bihari Muslims or Purbi Muslims as sometimes they are vaguely referred to - have a particularly wonderful reputation in the eastern parts. They were at the forefront of '71 atrocities on Bengalis in then East Pakistan. They tended to identify over strongly with Pakistan, tried to have a greater proportion of Urdu in their daily bread, and were known to have tried to show off their faith through overt loyalty to Arabic symbols and symbolism.
Correct. But that is from a Poakistani viewpoint. For a Bangladeshi the "Bihari" was a problem and Biharis remain a problem.

There is a problem of terminology here - a hangover of partition. Should we use the term "Bihari" to make derogatory references to the group of rabid Paki supporting Muslims of North central India and risk dumping all Indian Biharis in that sewer? This is a particularly vexed question because the self proclaimed real patriots of India - the Shiv Sena have also targeted "Biharis". I think we have to be careful about what we are saying when that term is used.

On BRF we have reached a happy compromise about that other nomenclature problem - Punjab. When we speak of "Pakjab" we are referring to Pakistan Punjabis. No such distinction exist for Biharis. How is anyone to know whether the term Bihari is a traitorous Paki-pasand Islamist or an unemployed, job grabbing menace to aamchi Mumbai and Marathi manoos?
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Prem »

There is something good about Wahabism, It can be short term allie for Dharmictva and help digging up all the burried Sooffies like Sirhindis and Sultans so they can be properly cremated per indian tradition.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by SBajwa »

by Shiv ji

When we speak of "Pakjab" we are referring to Pakistan Punjabis. No such distinction exist for Biharis. How is anyone to know whether the term Bihari is a traitorous Paki-pasand Islamist or an unemployed, job grabbing menace to aamchi Mumbai and Marathi manoos?
Well there are pockets of "islamic people" who have supported the Arabian interests., like Razakars (same name as Biharis) of Hyderabad. If there is a crunch/defensive battle/etc then we will see such "razakars" all over india from Noida, Bhendi Bazaar, MA Road, Aligarh to Quilon. From Gujarat to Manipuar/Nagaland.

Never forget than Arabian idealogy is a vicious promise of "Honey, virgins and unlimited wealth" just like "Arabian princes are enjoying now" that's what almost 50% Arabian muslims of india believe!

One indian muslim even told me that "Allah got the oil inside Arabian peninsula (saudi, qatar, kuwait, abu dhabi, yemen, oman, etc) as Allah wanted Arabian to be not only rich but ruling the worldl" And that's what the suicide bombers believe. That's what our establishment should prepare for.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by brihaspati »

Shivji,
too much of this "Bihari" debate will go OT. I think the original ref in the posts [to which I also was adding my clarification] specifically tagged "Bihari Muslim" and not just all Biharis. It is the "Bihari Muslim" which is a particular problem for Bangladeshi Muslims - for whom almost all Hindus are usually a discomfort [the disparaging term for Hindus in general is "malaon" - lampooning the Vaishnavites for their garlands] if not a problem. The "Poakistani" viewpoint is a bit confusing in ref here. The Pakistanis did not think of Bihari Muslims as a problem till the Pakis were thrashed in BD at the end of 1971, when they basically abandoned the Bihari Muslims and refused to take them back to Pakiland.

I dont think the upper Indian and west-coast hatred of anything to the east of UP distinguishes between Muslims and non-Muslims from that general direction in their hatred. The justification for hatred is based more on linguistic and anthropomorphic supposed alien-ness. OT
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by akashganga »

Well said. The arab idelogy of vicious promise of "Honey, virgins and unlimited wealth" represents this true religion. That is why you find that sane mussalmans suddnely turning jihadist. This is what wahabism represents. If our leaders understand this they can formulate realistic policy to deal with arabs.
SBajwa wrote: Well there are pockets of "islamic people" who have supported the Arabian interests., like Razakars (same name as Biharis) of Hyderabad. If there is a crunch/defensive battle/etc then we will see such "razakars" all over india from Noida, Bhendi Bazaar, MA Road, Aligarh to Quilon. From Gujarat to Manipuar/Nagaland.

Never forget than Arabian idealogy is a vicious promise of "Honey, virgins and unlimited wealth" just like "Arabian princes are enjoying now" that's what almost 50% Arabian muslims of india believe!

One indian muslim even told me that "Allah got the oil inside Arabian peninsula (saudi, qatar, kuwait, abu dhabi, yemen, oman, etc) as Allah wanted Arabian to be not only rich but ruling the worldl" And that's what the suicide bombers believe. That's what our establishment should prepare for.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Vikas »

sanjaykumar wrote:Chisti, Nizamudden, Sufi Mazaars are only for non-muslims (or newly converted people).


Many Hindus go to these shrines but it strikes me I have never seen a Sikh there.
I myself have visited the shrine in Agra for cultural reasons. A little too ornate butresses but quite magnificent.
Childhood anecdote...Few of us friends including a Sikh kid were coming out of a local Pir baba mazaar. Out of nowhere a Nihang, appeared and gave 2 tight slaps to the Sikh Kid for visiting a Pir baba mazaar.
I still don't know why, but we had a hearty laughter (Of course we never visited that Pir Baba again out of fear is a different story)
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Lalmohan »

wahhabism has its roots in the arab response to the mongol invasions of the 13th century, i.e. god has punished us for not being pious enough. wahab came much later than this period (c. 18th-19th century), and he preached hard line puritanism in the desert mostly to himself and any unfortunate passers by. the first al-saud found in him a motivational tool, that helped him create a powerful army. this army conquered all the other tribes of the peninsula and set up a saud-wahab duopoly of king and clergy to run the new kingdom. at this stage, the gulf arabs were distinct sub-creatures under the shadow of worms beneath the feet of the Turkish Sultans and Indian Shah-en-Shahs. However, indian pilgrims visiting the holy mosques started to learn something of this teaching and took it back to India with them (UP, Delhi)

enter the egyptians - who fight a brutal war with the bedouin and slaughter the entire house of saud and wahab on the field of battle (except for an obscure branch of the family that didn't show up that day). Wahabbism literally dies out.

meanwhile back in India, the mughal empire has been supplanted brutally by the British. in the build up to 1857, deoband and others start to mobilise the ancient anti-mongol strategies and ideologies guised in the language of wahab as a call to arms for the resistance. this is entwined with caliphatic desires and the designation of dar-ul-harb (british-india) and dar-ul-islam. the british take special pleasure in blowing the jehadis to smithereens in Delhi, Lucknow and elsewhere in the doab. The writing of the time is specific about this, our later history tends to gloss over these details

the fugitives from deoband then flee to afghanistan and back to arabia, and the flame of wahabbism returns to its hearth and survives the British transformation of (some) subcontinental muslims into a pliant community and eventually a client regime in pakistan. (afghan angle discussed elsewhere before)

meanwhile, someone digs a hole in the sand in arabia and black liquid comes out...

the ottomans are still around, allies are needed to defeat them, the new oil fields which will be needed for the automobile age need securing... the bedouin will do... enter the obscure branch of the saud family that didn't show up to fight the egyptians and their resurrected wahabi sidekicks... thanks to the Americans primarily, with support from the british (the power balance already had shifted westwards across the atlantic)

the rest has been well described elsewhere on this thread

now, in 2011 - does the house of saud still need the house of wahab?
is wahabism relevant for the future of saudi arabia?
what happens when the oil runs out?
what happens to a mushrooming population that 2 generations ago herded camels and now drives limo's and has no work when the oil runs out?
can there be a peaceful transformation in arabia?
what levers does the saudi royal family have to run teh country? to be relevant to the world? and to its own people?
KSA funded the "sunni bomb" for its own purposes, but the paquiwhore thought it could outsmart her client...
the saga continues...
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by SBajwa »

by Vikas Raina
Childhood anecdote...Few of us friends including a Sikh kid were coming out of a local Pir baba mazaar. Out of nowhere a Nihang, appeared and gave 2 tight slaps to the Sikh Kid for visiting a Pir baba mazaar.
I still don't know why, but we had a hearty laughter (Of course we never visited that Pir Baba again out of fear is a different story)
Actually to tell you truth! Guru Gobind Singh forbade any relations(food, marriage, etc) with people who

1. Kill their daughters (female infanticide).
2. Pray to Samadh, Marhi, Masaan and witchcraft of any kind and type.
3. Follow Ram Rai.

Ram Rai was to be eighth sikh Guru and was specially raised by the seventh guru Sri Guru Har Rai ji. Aurungzeb wanted to know why Guru Nanak Dev ji in one Sloak in SGGS implied that the Muslims are "beimaan" when they believe that instead of their body being buried they will get heaven. Guru Nanak actually was saying it does not matter whether you cremate or bury your dead. The exact translation is "The Ashes of the Musalman (Muslim) fall into the potter's clot, it is moulded into pots and bricks, and they cry out as they burn".

Now Aurungzeb wanted Guru Har Rai to be at Delhi with explanation. Guru Har Rai ji instead sent his eldest son Ram Rai who was groomed to be next Guru. Ram Rai went to Delhi and got scared and said that Guru Nanak Dev has never used the world "Musalmaan" it was instead "Beimaan" i.e. people who are beimaan will cry out when their body is burned. Ram Rai changed the Gurbani of Sri Guru Nanak dev (being scared) and thus he was kicked out of Sikhism by his father (Eighth guru Sri Guru Har Rai ji). Ram Rai was given an estate at a place where he created his "Dehra" and later it became "Dehradoon"
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Gus »

talking to GoKSA for stopping terror will only take you so far.

The al-Saud are originally from Nejd region and they conquered the Hejaz region (which has Mecca and Medina) - with the help of these fanatical wahabbi types like Ikhwanis and other such groups. These people helped al-Saud with the understanding that al-Saud will implement their version of islam. As nutty as KSA policies are, these groups don't think this is enough and want more islam.

KSA has several strategies to contain this threat...they bribe, coerce, exile, allow a little and so on. One of their strategy is to allow the religious minded sheikhs and other rich people to send money for trouble elsewhere than contributing money to groups wanting to create trouble for al-Saud inside.

GoKSA has officially at least, stayed away from poking at India at the behest of Pak. In 2006, the KSA king was the chief guest at the Republic day.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by brihaspati »

I think even the Iraqis have recently started blaming the Saudis in sponsoring terror on Iraqi soil.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by shyamd »

^^ Because they were backing the sunni militants and the sunni population while iran was doing things in Shia interest. Its not as black and white as it seems in Iraq.

Even Amriki can only do so much with KSA. Hands are tied with terror. The guy with pushing the buttons and sitting in the hot seat of terror related files in KSA is not a nice chappy, he's bit of a hard core wahabi. Even King A isn't too keen on him, but A can only do so much.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by shiv »

Cross post:
http://claws.in/index.php?action=master ... 97&u_id=36
No reprocessing plants have been built in India since the 1990’s which indicates that India is no great rush to expand its nuclear arsenal. In the absence of a nuclear arms race in South Asia, it is pertinent to ask why Pakistan is expanding its nuclear programme. This perhaps could have something to do with a threat perception emanating from Iran’s quest to become a nuclear power. It appears that a nexus exists between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan on the issue to counter the growth of Iran’s nuclear capability. It seems that Pakistan is underwriting Saudi Arabia’s nuclear potential and that some kind of understanding/agreement exists between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia on the issue. Pakistan is likely to keep a stockpile of nuclear weapons for Saudi Arabia, paid for by the latter. This will be used as a deterrent against any Iranian or third party threat to the Saudis.

Saudi Arabia is replacing CSS-2 with the CSS-5 missile which could be nuclear tipped. Iran’s nuclear programme hence raises the demand in Pakistan for stockpile material to cater to the defence requirements of the Saudis. With respect to nuclear deterrence, Saudi Arabia has three options: -
• Seek a US nuclear umbrella
• Develop indigenous nuclear capability
• Use Pakistan’s nuclear weapons as proxy.

Saudi Arabia will be most comfortable with the last of these propositions. There is also a geopolitical dimension in supplying nuclear weapons to Saudi Arabia. As neither Saudi Arabia nor Pakistan is comfortable with Iran’s growing quest for nuclear capability, this could in turn fuel a nuclear arms race in the region with the Saudis pitching in with Pakistan to deter the Iranians thus impacting on stability in the Middle East.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by Lalmohan »

scarily, a shia-sunni conflict could end up nuclear faster than any other type...
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by abhishek_sharma »

SBajwa wrote:
One indian muslim even told me that "Allah got the oil inside Arabian peninsula (saudi, qatar, kuwait, abu dhabi, yemen, oman, etc) as Allah wanted Arabian to be not only rich but ruling the worldl" And that's what the suicide bombers believe. That's what our establishment should prepare for.
Saudis also believe it. I read in a book (link posted on page 1 of this thread) that Saudis believe that God gave them oil because they are good Muslims.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by RamaY »

^ :rotfl:

Will it automatically make subcontinental muslims bad muslims :eek: :eek: :eek:

What should they do? Remain bad muslims for ever (sure, god cannot magically put oil/gas reserves under the bottoms of India/Pakistan in next million years) or turn Indic?

The more they use ZakirNaik logic, the more they will lose.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by shyamd »

http://middleeast-analysis.blogspot.com ... issue.html

Just released comments on the Iranian nuclear issue. This is meant for public consumption. Look forward to hearing your views.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by akashganga »

The strange thing is that subcontinental muslims willingly accept themselves as bad muslims. No matter how many centuries pass muslims of the subcontinent will never be equal to their arab brethern. Islam is by arabs and for arabs. All other people following this religion are useful idiots for arabs.
RamaY wrote:^ :rotfl:

Will it automatically make subcontinental muslims bad muslims :eek: :eek: :eek:

What should they do? Remain bad muslims for ever (sure, god cannot magically put oil/gas reserves under the bottoms of India/Pakistan in next million years) or turn Indic?

The more they use ZakirNaik logic, the more they will lose.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by ramana »

Is Saudi Arabia Opening Up?

by Daniel Pipes
National Review Online
January 4, 2011

http://www.meforum.org/pipes/9274/saudi ... opening-up
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On Jan. 1, 1996, Abdullah bin Abdulaziz became regent and effective ruler of Saudi Arabia. His 15th anniversary this week offers an opportunity to review the kingdom's changes under his leadership and whither it now heads.

The Saudi king, Abdullah Bin Abdulaziz, 86.

His is perhaps the most unusual and opaque country on the planet, a place without a public movie theater, where women may not drive, where men sell women's lingerie, where a single-button self-destruct system can perhaps destroy the oil infrastructure, and where rulers spurn even the patina of democracy. In its place, they have developed some highly original and successful mechanisms to keep power.

Three features define the regime: controlling the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, subscribing to the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam, and possessing by far the world's largest petroleum reserve. Islam defines identity, Wahhabism inspires global ambitions, oil wealth funds the enterprise.

More profoundly, wealth beyond avarice permits Saudis to deal with modernity on their own terms. They shun jacket and tie, exclude women from the workspace, and even aspire to replace Greenwich Mean Time with Mecca Mean Time.

Not many years ago, the key debate in the kingdom was that between the monarchical and Taliban versions of Wahhabism – an extreme reading of Islam versus a fanatical one. But today, thanks in large part to Abdullah's efforts to "tame Wahhabi zeal," the most retrograde country has taken some cautious steps to join the modern world. These efforts have many dimensions, from children's education to mechanisms for selecting political leaders, but perhaps the most crucial one is the battle among the ulema, the Islamic men of religion, between reformers and hardliners.

The arcane terms of this dispute make it difficult for outsiders to follow. Fortunately, Roel Meijer, a Dutch Middle East specialist, provides an expert's guide to arguments in the kingdom in his article, "Reform in Saudi Arabia: The Gender-Segregation Debate." He demonstrates how gender mixing (ikhtilat in Arabic) inspires a debate central to the kingdom's future and how that debate has evolved.

Current stringencies about gender separation, he notes, reflect less age-old custom than the success of the Sahwa movement in the aftermath of two traumatic events in 1979 – the Iranian revolution and the seizure of the Grand Mosque of Mecca by Osama bin Laden-style radicals.

When Abdullah formally ascended to the monarchy in mid-2005, he ushered in an easing of what critics call gender apartheid. Two key recent events toward greater ikhtilat took place in 2009: a change of high government personnel in February and the September opening of King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (known as KAUST), with its ostentatiously mixed-gender classes and even dances.

The Saudi crown prince, Sultan bin Abdulaziz, 82.

Debate over ikhtilat ensued, with jousting among royals, political figures, ulema, and intellectuals. "Although the position of women has improved since 9/11, ikhtilat demarcates the battle lines between reformists and conservatives [i.e., hardliners]. Any attempt to diminish its enforcement is regarded as a direct attack on the standing of conservatives and Islam itself."

Meijer concludes his survey of the debate by noting that "it is extremely difficult to determine whether reforms are successful and whether the liberals or conservatives are making gains. Although the general trend is in favor of the reformists, reform is piecemeal, hesitant, equivocal and strongly resisted."

The state under Abdullah has promoted a more open and tolerant Islam but, Meijer argues, "it is obvious from the ikhtilat debate that the battle has not been won. Many Saudis are fed up with the inordinate interference of religious authorities in their lives, and one can even speak of an anti-clerical movement. The liberals, however, speak a language that is alien to the world of official Wahhabism and the majority of Saudis and is therefore hardly likely to influence them."

In brief, Arabians are in mid-debate, with the future course of reform as yet unpredictable. Not only do elite and public opinion play a role, but, complicating matters, much hangs on the quirks of longevity and personality – in particular, how long Abdullah, 86, remains in charge and whether his ailing half-brother crown prince, Sultan bin Abdulaziz, 82, will succeed him.

Saudi Arabia being one of the world's most influential Muslim countries, the stakes involved are high, not just within the kingdom but for Islam and for Muslims generally. This debate deserves our full attention.

Mr. Pipes is director of the Middle East Forum and Taube distinguished visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University.
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Re: Saudi Arabia and its impact on Indian security

Post by akashganga »

If Saudis open up and become more accepting then this will definitely influence Muslims in Indian subcontinent to be more open. The single biggest influence on the muslims of the subcontinent is Saudi Arabia. But I doubt whether Saudis will ever open up as suggested in this article. At best they will play a deceptive role by appearing like they are opening up. My 2 cents.
ramana wrote:Is Saudi Arabia Opening Up?

by Daniel Pipes
National Review Online
January 4, 2011

http://www.meforum.org/pipes/9274/saudi ... opening-up
Send Comment RSS Share: Facebook Twitter Google Buzz Digg del.icio.us

On Jan. 1, 1996, Abdullah bin Abdulaziz became regent and effective ruler of Saudi Arabia. His 15th anniversary this week offers an opportunity to review the kingdom's changes under his leadership and whither it now heads.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Mr. Pipes is director of the Middle East Forum and Taube distinguished visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University.
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