Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

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Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2011 03:09

Bji, Atri, Jambudvipa, I would like to start a new project on the "Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought". I would like to start the collection of refs in vedas, Epics, Puranas, writings of Chanakaya, Thiruvalluvar, Panchatantra, Hitopodesa, Badde Neeti and so on to modern times. I would also like to see if there are any Marathi accounts that describe their views. I know of Golconda Sultanate's Akkana and his brother Madanna whose point of view is recorded in Dutch company records.

I think saying Chanakya is the alpha and omega of Indian thinking on this restricts the vision and throws out a lot of other important sources.

Eventually you all can write a book.

Will start the thread in Strat forum so there is visibility

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Atri » 15 Feb 2011 03:19

Indian Civilization - Part 2 - Sapta Sindhu, Bhaarat, Hindutva and Secularism

Hindutva literally means Indian-ness. The core of India and Indianness is found in Vedas which is allegiance towards land of Sapta-Sindhu and culture and civilization of Sapta-Sindhu. The definition which Veer Savarkar gives for the word Hindu is

आसिंधु सिन्धु पर्यन्ता यस्य भारत भूमिका l पितृभू पुण्यभू च एव स वै हिन्दुरिती स्मृतः ll

- One who refers to the Indian subcontinent as Bhaarat and considers Bhaarat as his fatherland (or motherland) and most revered land (Punyabhoomi) is a Hindu.

This concept of revered land has its origin in the term of "Sapta-Sindhu" which is widely cited in Vedic and post-Vedic literature.

This concept and high reverence of Sapta-Sindhu is central concept of Vedic literature. The most interesting part of Bhaaratiya civilization is the process in which the radius of this Sapta-Sindhu region increased and expanded with time.

The original Sapta-Sindhu region in early hymns of Rigveda comprises of 5 rivers of Punjab, Saraswati(in Rajasthan) and Kubha (Kabul) river in NWFP. This land is glorified as Sapta-Sindhu. The dwellers of this land are Arya people who are pure, rich, righteous and civilized men on earth who are Kavis (poets) composing beautiful literature and performing grand Yagnas to please their mighty Devas.

In later Rigveda, in nadi-stuti sukta of 10th mandala, the Sapta-Sindhu region includes Ganga and Yamuna as well. Thus, now, this idea of Sapta-Sindhu, its culture and civilzation comprised of entire north Indian plains, from Bengal to NWFP.

In Puranic times post Rigveda, new Sapta-Sindhu concept became popular with time. This is seen in famous verse

गंगेच यमुनेचैव गोदावरी सरस्वती l नर्मदे सिन्धु कावेरी जलेस्मिन सन्निधिम कुरु ll

Now, Sapta-Sindhu includes the region of Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu and Kaveri. Basically, entire Indian subcontinent. Interestingly, the rivers west of Sindhu were no longer considered as part of Sapta Sindhu region. This expansion has to be seen with its connection with shift from Indra to Trinity elaborated in Part-1 of this series.

Sapta-Sindhu is the term which gave birth to the word "Hindu". The Civilization of Sapta-Sindhu was referred to as Hapta-Hindu by Persians and other outsiders. The people of this region and culture, the Sapta-Saindhavas were referred to as hapta-Haindavas by Persians and other outsiders. All these terms are found in Zend Avesta of Zoroastrians.

In all its context, Sapta-Sindhu has been the homeland of Sapta-Saindhavas (Bhaaratiyas). This has been the Punya-Bhoomi (revered land) of them. This has been the Pitrubhoomi and Matrubhoomi for them.

Thus, the very concept and identity of India or Bhaarat originated from land of seven legendary rivers and expands with the same. The concept of Bhaarat was Punjab and adjacent areas during Vedic war of ten kings where Sudas is a king of Bhaarata and Sapta Sindhu. The concept of Bhaarat in Vishnupuran was same as pan-subcontinental identity of Sapta-Sindhu.

One more defining feature which was preserved all throughout the history of our civilization is the sense of supremacy of Arya over Anaarya people. The famous quotation of कृण्वन्तो विश्वं आर्यम (lets make the whole world "Arya" or civilized) denotes the same fact. Vedic memes did that, by extending the status of "civilized/Aarya" to all the residents of Indian subcontinent who accepted the Dharmic way of life. The land of "Arya/civilized" automatically became Sapta-Sindhu and hence Bhaarat. Howmuchever it is denied, this identity of civilized Arya people and barbaric Anaarya people still exists, with different names and in subtle forms in the subconscious psyches of Indian population.

Owing to this, sadly, Muslims and Christians are still considered as Anaarya and Mlenchha by certain section of orthodox Indic people. Same is true about certain section of Muslim population as well which propounded and propagated two-nation theory, which resulted in partition of India in 1947. This exclusivity perhaps worked in medieval times, for good or for evil, with Muslims and Christians of foreign origin. Indian Muslims and Indian Christians, especially in post independence era, are as much Indians as Indian Non-Abrahamics are. Hence, this strategy needs to be changed and updated.

The concept of Arya needs to be extended to IM and IC who understand, appreciate and follow the concept of Dharma and delineate and differentiate their personal faiths of attaining Moksha from pursuit of Dharma-Artha-Kaama in day-to-day life. This differentiation is of utmost importance in Indian context. Separation of Dharma and Moksha is the true definition of secularism in Indian context.

This origin and the true meaning of the terms "Dharma" and "Arya" and identities of "Sapta-Sindhu", "Bhaarat" should be explained thoroughly to every single resident of Indian subcontinent. This will generate an enormous selective pressure on Indianization and assimilation of Abrahamic memes into mainstream Indic society.

Just like followers of Abrahamic ideologies should Indianize themselves, the followers of Indic ideologies must increase their inclusiveness and expand their idea of Sapta-Sindhu once again. Christians and Muslims in India will be able to retain their Christianity and Islam as personal paths of achieving Moksha/Salvation without letting it interfere with their pursuits of Dharma-Artha-Kaama of daily life in society.

If this happens, who knows, perhaps Tigris, Euphrates and Jordan rivers will become part of Sapta-Sindhu 500 years from now.....

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Baikul » 15 Feb 2011 03:21

Excellent. Could you, as you write about this evolution, provide references to texts/ books/ online sources (if you happen to know any) for the reader who wants to explore further?

Edit: Can we please do this in an organized manner, so that idiots like me can follow the evolution? I find that too many cross posts tend to detract from experience. My 'umble opinion.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 15 Feb 2011 03:38

If gurus permit, I can collaborate on Tiruvalluvar's Tirukural. I have been collecting snippets and his kurals for sometime now. I have Arthasastra copy as well.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2011 04:08

Link to :

Sukra Niti

among other things.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2011 10:27

War in Ancient India is good book to get a quick over view of arthsastra and its earlier origins. The book is linked at jambudvipa's blog.


i have got one ebook which you guys might be interested in. i downloaded it from the Delhi university DSPACE site called "War in Ancient India".Ive stitched the various parts into one book and posted it on http://jambudveep.wordpress.com/2011/01 ... ent-india/


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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 19 Feb 2011 02:29

From Thiruvalluvar

Chapter 88: Understanding the Nature of Enmity

Kural 871
So accursed is the thing called hatred that one
should never wish for it--even in jest.
Kural 872
It is bad enough to incur the enmity of those who live by the bow,
but never provoke the hatred of those who sow and reap with words.
Kural 873
One man who, all by himself, arouses hatred in many
is crazier than any lunatic.
Kural 874
The world abides beneath the greatness
of noble-natured rulers who befriend even their enemies.
Kural 875
Finding that he faces two foes and has no allies,
a lone man lures one to side with him.
Kural 876
When distress dawns, neither draw near nor depart from
new friends and foes--rather, leave them alone.
Kural 877
Never tell your troubles to those who cannot comprehend them,
nor expose your weaknesses to your enemies.
Kural 878
Engineer a plan, execute that plan well and ensure
your security--thus is the joy of rivals forever ruined.
Kural 879
Chop down a thorny tree while it is young.
Left to grow mature, it will one day cut the cutter's hand.
Kural 880
Those who fail to quell a hostile rival's pride
will be blown away by the mere fact that he still breathes.


V.Srinivasan categories 874, 875, 877 and 879 as "Reducing Competitor's Power". In his book, he uses it from a Management's perspective of running a business. It is equally applicable in War and geo-politics.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-NCYc8 ... gy&f=false

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby shyamd » 19 Feb 2011 03:19

Good thread and is much needed.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 22 Feb 2011 21:20

On the task of planning.

Chapter 47: Deliberate Before Acting

Kural 461
When action is needed, ponder what is to be gained,
what lost, and what ultimately achieved, then proceed.
Kural 462
There is nothing too difficult for a man who, before he acts,
deliberates with chosen friends and reflects privately.
Kural 463
The wise never undertake an enterprise that rashly risks
existing capital to reach for potential profits.
Kural 464
Those who dread ridicule and disgrace
will not commence any task that is unclear.
Kural 465
To sally forth without a well-conceived plan
is one way to cultivate an enemy's strength.
Kural 466
Doing what should not be done will bring ruin,
and not doing what should be done will also bring ruin.
Kural 467
Embark upon an action after careful thought. It is folly to say,
"Let us begin the task now and think about it later."
Kural 468
Any task not methodically performed may go awry,
though men in multitudes support it.
Kural 469
Even in doing good deeds a man may err
if he does not consider the recipient's unique nature.
Kural 470
Having made his plans, let a man keep his actions above blame.
The world will never approve of acts that are beneath him.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Atri » 22 Feb 2011 21:22

SwamyG wrote:On the task of planning.

Chapter 47: Deliberate Before Acting

Kural 469
Even in doing good deeds a man may err
if he does not consider the recipient's unique nature.


very perceptive... one of the fundamental premises of Dharma...

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 22 Feb 2011 21:46

^^^
As I was double checking each verse to ensure it relates to Strategy, I wanted to delete Kural 469. I almost did it. Then realized the unique nature of "Pakistan" :-), and left that verse.

Can you please elaborate why you liked 469 and the fundamental premises of Dharma here or in off-topic thread? Is it like help only the deserved kind of thought?
Last edited by SwamyG on 23 Feb 2011 00:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby ramana » 23 Feb 2011 00:00

SwamyG, many of the avataras are due to wrong recipients (and their true/unique nature) getting boons from Brahma or Shiva. Eg. Bhasmasura!

So too is TSP getting nukes from PRC while US is looking on!!!

So very Dharmic onlee.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Atri » 23 Feb 2011 06:05

SwamyG wrote:^^^
As I was double checking each verse to ensure it relates to Strategy, I wanted to delete Kural 469. I almost did it. Then realized the unique nature of "Pakistan" :-), and left that verse.

Can you please elaborate why you liked 469 and the fundamental premises of Dharma here or in off-topic thread? Is it like help only the deserved kind of thought?


Swamy ji,

Pakistan is just a contemporary example of age-old Hindu trait of "Sadguna-vikruti". The term of "Sadguna vikruti" was coined by Savarkar when he wrote 6 golden pages.

Ahimsa is a good deed. but to whom? ahimsa when "gifted" to wrong person, is adharmik. treachery is dharmik when it is done to protect OR establish Dharma. Gifting Ahimsa to wrong recipient is "vikruti" (deformation) of the otherwise good trait (sadguna) of ahimsa.

The hallmark of "Dharma" is relativity of good and evil as opposed to absolute nature of good and evil in abrahmic operating system.

throughout the expanse of Indic-continuum in space and time, this is one aspect which is deliberately emphasized upon by scriptures and ignored by our people especially in past 1000 years.

as they say - वृथा वृष्टी समुद्रेषु, वृथा तृप्तेषु भोजनं... वृथा दानं धनाढ़्येषु, वृथा दीपो दिवापिच... (if it rains heavily in ocean, what's the point. What's the point in donating food to well-fed? What's the point in donating money to rich man and what's the point in turning on lights in daytime?). These acts (of raining, donating food, money and lighting lamps) are of any significance only when the recipient is deserving OR is in need of these. thus, their efficacy and aptness depend upon unique nature of recipient. its good when it rains in july, its bad if it rains too heavily in September (destroys crops :))...

The deed (karma) is different from action (kriya) in a way that karma is kriya done by one sane human being with respect to another living being. Thus, very definition of karma is relative to non-self living being. so, the concept of good-deed and bad deed (paapam and punyam) is furthermore relative.

The term Dharmaarthik (धर्मार्थिक) is Indian term which I propose for "socio-polity" and "socio-economy". In Dharmaarthik context, this is seen evidently when we study our history and our present. The example of Pakistan is the most evident example which is easy to see. There are many such examples which are less clear-cut than TSP. right from JLN, MKG to Raam-Sena and opposition to valentine's day by SS.

one has to be one's own judge, this is what dharma expects. And there are different dimensions of self as acknowledged by Vedas. Aatman (ego, I-ness) - Buddhi (intellect)-Maanas(mind)-Indriya(senses)-Sharira(body)-kutumba(family)-samaaj(community)-Rashtra-Sanskriti-Mankind-Earthling-Parabrahman (same as aatman, the circle of ego is completed here).

We deal with issues pertaining to self and non-self on all these dimensions. thus, we perform karma (good and bad immaterial) in all these dimensions. The unique nature of recipient of that karma (in all those dimensions) is equally important. Thus, thus Kural touches all aspects of "self", out of which Dharmaarthik aspect is of particular interest in this thread.

Failure to follow the essence of this kural in our dharmaarthik aspects have led to our dharmaarthik sufferings on all the prior occasions. hence my appreciation.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby manju » 23 Feb 2011 06:23

Atri wrote:
SwamyG wrote:On the task of planning.

Chapter 47: Deliberate Before Acting

Kural 469
Even in doing good deeds a man may err
if he does not consider the recipient's unique nature.


very perceptive... one of the fundamental premises of Dharma...


This applies not only to nations as some one mentioned paikstan.. Even in social servic/NGO work where I have some experience, this is particularly very true.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 23 Feb 2011 08:19

Thanks. In my opinion the concept of Dharma is unique and a valuable contribution from India to the World.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Airavat » 24 Feb 2011 11:54

Indian Military Thought: Kurukshetra to Kargil:

He is of the view that centuries-old foreign rule had kept the indigenous Indians insulated from the country’s defence and military planning, "which has resulted in an obvious lack of security consciousness in the Indian society" and the resultant void in military expertise. He adds that decision-making and mobilisation of the nation "continues to be a weak link, which keeps it from fully gearing up and realising its inherent potential."

He also criticises Nehru for his naivette in military matters and tendency to be idealistic than realistic when dealing with military matters. He adds, "Mountbatten and other British military officers assigned to the Indian services exploited the naivette of the political leadership in matters of defence and warfare."

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Pranav » 24 Feb 2011 17:18

Perhaps we should discuss regression, not evolution, of strategic thought - we are still afflicted by Nehruvian naivete.

x-post:
negi wrote:Vice Admiral Puri addressing the National Security Convention.

[youtube]LSH1o3_cebk&NR=1[/youtube]

Sir minces no words.

PS: LIkes of G. Parthasarathy and Ajit Doval too spoke on the occasion.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Atri » 24 Feb 2011 18:59

Even Anil kakodkar, Indresh kumar, Avadheshananda giri, Mohan Bhagwat, najma heptulla and many others from various fields of society participated and presented their thoughts on holistic Indian security scenario.. thinkers and movers from bureaucracy, military, intelligence department, social organizations, religious organizations networked together.. IMHO, this is one of the main reasons why Indresh Kumar is in trouble today. Such open networking of all the people, organizations and forces working for the cause of "indic" is unseen OR unheard of in modern day narrative. FINS was one such initiative.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby JE Menon » 26 Feb 2011 16:42

Thank you Atri. Guys, do we have video of the event, particularly other speakers?

Never mind, should have asked uncle google... :) Laziness. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSH1o3_c ... r_embedded

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby NRao » 27 Feb 2011 04:56

Perhaps we should discuss regression, not evolution, of strategic thought - we are still afflicted by Nehruvian naivete.


What am I missing, I feel his talk is what India needs.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 27 Feb 2011 06:54

Kural 861
Rein in antagonism against the strong,
but unleash animosity against feeble adversaries.
Kural 869
Finding that his foe is ignorant and afraid to fight,
the attacker's cheerfulness cannot forsake him.
Kural 870
Fame will flee the grasp of one who fails to grasp
the wealth of an enemy who is angry and unlearned.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Maram » 28 Feb 2011 03:19

What about Chatrapathi Shivaji, Maha Rana Pratap and Maharaja Ranjeet Singh and their contributions to evolution of Indian strategic thinking?

Another link here :-
http://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/2007/R4207.pdf

I found myself disagreeing with several aspects of the report, but agreed on a few. worth a read, if anything else.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby svinayak » 28 Feb 2011 03:52

^^^^ Tanaham

Yet recognition as a great world nation is of paramount goal.


This theme keeps repeating in the western narrative of India. This is connected with the weakness for flattery by the Indian elites. That has been recognized by the western elites for some 200 years now and they have been manipulating this.

I think no country gets described like this
Status and symbolism matter greatly in Indian society particularly in India's strategic calculations and military perceptions. Indians consider specific military capabilities symbols of great power status and India therefore must have them.
Last edited by svinayak on 28 Feb 2011 04:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2011 04:31

I thought long and hard about that Tanaham essay and came to conclusion the author did not try enough to understand that India does have a strategy and is executing per that since 1905. I am still writing my thoughts on that and will post it. I showed a draft to some BRF members early this month.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Maram » 28 Feb 2011 04:50

Ramana Garu,

The Tanaham report is in itself a reflection of the Strategic Thought of the Indian Armed Forces. He has met KS Garu, Gen Sundarji and several armed forces folks. He also met some officials at MEA. The interesting thing I feel(looking at the acknowledgement) is he has not met any HISTORIANS, nor has any one at MEA or Armed Forces feel, it was relevant to meet good historians about Indian history.

The ironic thing is Our Armed Forces, our MEA babudom seem to believe Indian History began in 1947-. the periods touched do not talk about Ramayana/Maha Bharatha/Bhagavad Gita/ Bhaagavatham and other Hindu mythology. There is no discussion in detail about the Guptha Dynasty. The Cholas were sea farers and made some forays into south east asia.Thats how hinduism spread to Cambodia(angkor vat temple is the biggest temple complex in the world and resembles in some way to the huge temple complexes of tamil nadu) and Bali.

To cut a long story short, they tried to eradicate hindu strategic thought from the collective conscious of the nation. I hope you are concentrating on this aspect "HINDU CONTRIBUTION TO INDIAN STRATEGIC THOUGHT".

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2011 05:01

He wrote what he thought he heard. Don't worry. You will be surprised how much the babus know about the epics and all that.

I kind of gave short para on what the strategy was in my tribute to KS garu.

viewtopic.php?p=1031338#p1031338

There is no direct evidence of a grand strategy of the modern Indian Independence movement. There is no single document that describes the endeavor. However one can infer from the speeches, writings and actions of a pantheon of national leaders like Tilak, Gokhale, Mahatma Gandhi, and Jawaharlal Nehru that there were three goals of the movement. The primary goal was to end colonial rule and get rid of the British. The secondary goal was to create a modern Indian state and reclaim its status prior to the beginning of the colonial era. The tertiary goal was to prevent further fragmentation of the sub-continent.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Maram » 28 Feb 2011 05:16

ramana wrote:He wrote what he thought he heard. Don't worry. You will be surprised how much the babus know about the epics and all that.

I kind of gave short para on what the strategy was in my tribute to KS garu.

viewtopic.php?p=1031338#p1031338

There is no direct evidence of a grand strategy of the modern Indian Independence movement. There is no single document that describes the endeavor. However one can infer from the speeches, writings and actions of a pantheon of national leaders like Tilak, Gokhale, Mahatma Gandhi, and Jawaharlal Nehru that there were three goals of the movement. The primary goal was to end colonial rule and get rid of the British. The secondary goal was to create a modern Indian state and reclaim its status prior to the beginning of the colonial era. The tertiary goal was to prevent further fragmentation of the sub-continent.


WOW ! We have achieved (1) and are well on way to achieving (2).(3) worries me as India have several regional parties are separatist in that they are trying to divideIndia. I worry about its implications all the time.

Ramana Garu, Can I request a sneak preview of your thoughts on the RAND Tanham monograph?

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Atri » 28 Feb 2011 05:26

A strong alternative narrative is required..

Does the concept of Dharma necessitates a unified continuous political empire?

failure to understand dharma leads to failure to understand Indian history and hence failure to devise sound strategies which are "indic" in essence..

I am personally sick of reading this BS regarding British inheriting system from mughals and Hindus being fatalistic morons who prefer navel-gazing over strategic planning.

Why does strategy be devised by army and political class alone? is this the "equality" which western school brags about?

The basic failure of western people is to realize that Polity is complementary to sanskriti, polity is subset to sanskriti and not supplementary to it. While it is very important, there exist alternate models of socio-polity which can run a nation and civilization much more efficiently than the nation-state model.

the failure to understand very simple notion that a stable political structure not based on "nation-state" model is possible is the reason why these guys came up with hogwash like tanham report. Empires rose in India as response to invasions. In times of total peace, there is no reason for political mega union to exist.

While these guys pull out statements from their musharraf "Indians never knew about their history" hence are "incapable of devising a strategy", they need to understand burning of thousands of nalandas, vaishalis and takshshilaa universities.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Pranav » 28 Feb 2011 05:56

NRao wrote:
Perhaps we should discuss regression, not evolution, of strategic thought - we are still afflicted by Nehruvian naivete.


What am I missing, I feel his talk is what India needs.


Yes, he was pointing out some of the gaping lacunae. The powers that be love to nurse their Nehruvian delusions. Perhaps defense is simply not a priority - for example, for a tenth of the cost of the 2G scam, we could have an ultra-modern semiconductor fab. In today's world, anybody who is unaware of the concept of a hardware trojan is not fit to be PM.

The basic problem is that we are not led by Kshatriyas ... there is a mindset problem. (Here Kshatriya is not being used in the sense of a hereditary caste.) The British were careful to install incompetent, corrupt and deluded people before they departed.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby Maram » 28 Feb 2011 06:24

There are 2 strands that are completely avoided in the historic discourse of India.

1) One is the contribution of Hindu religion and philosophy to Indian strategic thought. 80% of the population is hindu and yet their contribution is none. what utter bull crap.

2) The avoidance of even mentioning/discussing Muslim(rulers/invaders) atrocities of Hindus/forcible conversions etc....... This is being encouraged by yuvraj and raajmata of kangress currently.

The following events have had a significant impact on the hindu ppsyche :-

1)defeat of prithviraaj chauhan by Ghauri.
2)destruction of somnath temple/ghaznavi raids and pillaging gujarat/rajasthan.
3)looting/pillaging by Nadir Shah
4)Aurangazeb's destruction of temples at Mathura and Varanasi

-The impact of forcible conversions.
- the role of deccani sultans and sri krishna devaraya's abilit to check mate them.
-quli qutub shahi dynasty
-tipu sultan
-Travancore Royal Family and how it managed complex demographics
- rani rudrama Devi and orugallu dynasty
(http://gentleislam.com/The_Hindu_Holoca ... laught.htm)
Goes through everal issues pertaining Islamic fascism and its excesses on Hindus through the centuries.

The point is not to hate muslims but that does not mean we forget several injustices and gross violations of our sanctity either.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2011 07:00

Not true. Try to google for Akkanna Madanna and the Dutch. In that paper, Akkanna the mantri for Abul Hasan of Golconda, talks to the Dutch merchant about how Golconda under his stewardship is able to accumulate wealth to be able to buy off the Mughal Emperor. He says it was due to his strict adherence to dharmic rule.

When discussing the Muslim rulers use of excessive force recall their numbers were small and they rarely felt a sense of belonging to Hindusthan. Babur always wrote about cool climate of Kabul. His successors wasted lot of resources (Birbal died in Kandahar) trying to get back ancestral lands. They all depended on the vilayati factions to keep their courts. They all had to be brutal to keep power. But that is all past and can't make the present or future beholden to that.

Handing over Indian Muslims to the ulema is same as the West propping up dictators in the Arab lands. When Mulana Vastanavi wanted to reform Deoband, Fazlur Rehman was allowed to come from FATA badlands and harangue him.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby shiv » 28 Feb 2011 08:24

Remembering Admiral Nadkarni's Strategic thinking with great fondness and a tinge of nostalgia

From 2001
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/13nad.htm
LCA is incapable of any significant upgrading at all during its lifetime. It is a very small, single-engined aircraft tightly packed with equipment. It cannot be fitted with a bigger engine or expanded avionics.


So the most prudent thing for the government would be to immediately terminate the LCA project. National and individual egos have been satisfied after the first flight.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 28 Feb 2011 08:49

ramana wrote:I think saying Chanakya is the alpha and omega of Indian thinking on this restricts the vision and throws out a lot of other important sources.

That is a very good point; and R.C.Majumdar points out two schools of thought in Ancient India which held diametrically opposite views on non-monarchical States. Arthasastra, i.e Kautilaya, favored the strong monarchy and imperialism and regarded the non-monarchical States as chief obstacles; and advocated destruction of these States. Kautilaya managed to do that too in his neighborhood; not many survived his machinations. Of course there were other imperial forces within the nation that destroyed other non-monarchical States.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 28 Feb 2011 09:01

Can we refrain from bashing INC, JLN, Rahul, Sonia ityadi? The expectation is very clear:
to start the collection of refs in vedas, Epics, Puranas, writings of Chanakaya, Thiruvalluvar, Panchatantra, Hitopodesa, Badde Neeti and so on to modern times.

At the least we should be able to cite or refer to primary sources or reference material for 5-10 pages before starting to bash one school or the other. Yea, it is a self-imposed restriction of "freedom of speech"; but even if we can have one page worth data for each of the topics mentioned; then start connecting and disconnecting dots then we will not get side tracked from the 'main purpose'.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 28 Feb 2011 09:19

Matsya Nyaya
Matsya Nyaya and the ascendancy of the Palas
Matsya Nyaya, Law of Fishes, comes into play when a region suffers anarchy and chaos; the mighty gets their way and win, the weak are vanquished. This is akin to a pond where the big fishes swallow the smaller fishes. R.C.Majumdar compares this with State of Nature

Devdutt Pattanaik, famous from his TED presentation, discusses this in his own style Law of fishes. He extends the discussion to corporations.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby devesh » 28 Feb 2011 09:28

ramana wrote:Link to :

Sukra Niti

among other things.



an interesting read. but one should be always aware that the author is including many of his own views and possibly imposing his attitudes on Indian history. on page 45, the usual 19th century mindset of British, w.r.t AIT is displayed with full force. an expert should verify some of the details which have no footnotes, or references, but are presented as truth.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby ramana » 28 Feb 2011 10:09

In Somesvara's Manasollasa Vol II, in the E-Books link thread there are quotes from Sukra Niti with chapter and verse. The above link is a handy one to be read with usual filters.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby abhischekcc » 28 Feb 2011 12:10

I really like the article of Matsya Nyaya. Not only does it reflect what India is going through now, but it also gives us a justifiable reason for creating a strong central state.

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby abhischekcc » 28 Feb 2011 12:23

SwamyG wrote:
ramana wrote:I think saying Chanakya is the alpha and omega of Indian thinking on this restricts the vision and throws out a lot of other important sources.

That is a very good point; and R.C.Majumdar points out two schools of thought in Ancient India which held diametrically opposite views on non-monarchical States. Arthasastra, i.e Kautilaya, favored the strong monarchy and imperialism and regarded the non-monarchical States as chief obstacles; and advocated destruction of these States. Kautilaya managed to do that too in his neighborhood; not many survived his machinations. Of course there were other imperial forces within the nation that destroyed other non-monarchical States.


What are these two thought streams?

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Re: Evolution of Indian Strategic Thought-1

Postby SwamyG » 28 Feb 2011 18:47

Monarchical and non-Monarchical. It is said, Buddha was able to incorporate some sort of "democratism" into his way of life because non-monarchical forms of State existed within Sakhyas, Lichchhavis, Mallas and several tribes in that region. I do not think those forms of State would have been exactly like what we have today; but authors talk about national assemblies being elected.


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