Poll: Renaming of Pakistan thread (pls read and vote)

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 12 May 2011 22:16

Rahul M wrote:how about "Terror Central : The Military State of Pakistan"

I voted against a name-change, but if I could I would reverse in favour of what youve come up with.

It is crisp, accurate, and uses a term ('Terror Central') that is already in circulation and associated with Pakistan.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 May 2011 22:22

I had initially voted against too but shiv ji's subsequent posts convinced me otherwise.

p.s. you can change votes.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 12 May 2011 22:48

I really don't want to open a whole can of worms, but....

.... maybe the mods and admins might want to discuss amongst themselves, the possibility of dividing the present TSP discussion into separate threads?

Thread #1: Strictly terrorism-related.
Thread #2: Instances/expressions/demonstrations of Pakistani perfidy.
Thread #3: Regarding those who coddle and enable Pakistan -- Worldwide Governmental Actors Only.
Thread #4: Regarding those who excuse and cover for Pakistan -- Media Agents Only.

I realize there are already threads devoted to such things as "Economic Stress Watch", "Nuclear Proliferation", "Oppression of Minorities", and of course, the "Bojitive Neujj" and "BENIS" dhaagas. This would just be a continuation along the same lines.

Posters could be instructed to cross-post if anything covers more than one discussion. Having more posts with links to other threads would also help search engine rankings, because 'internal links' are scored as well. This might help everyone to target their time-spend on the specific issues that interest them the most.

It's just a suggestion, and I'm not sure it's a good one. Just thought I'd raise it.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 May 2011 22:49

Rahul M wrote:how about "Terror Central : The Military State of Pakistan"

Nuclear threat from Pakistan must be given wide spread publicity.
" Nuclear Terror Central : The Jihadi State of Pakistan"

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 12 May 2011 23:04

Rahul M wrote:how about "Terror Central : The Military State of Pakistan"

I like it. btw has anyone heard of Khakistocracy

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 13 May 2011 00:06

The current name is perfectly all right. Terrorist and Pakistan come together beautifully and describe exactly what that nation stands for, it's a classic thread on BR and we could do without the over complication of "kabila, nexus, nuclear, Islamist, rentier" etc.

4 pages of this debate maybe points to an unhealthy obsession with TSP itself, maybe we should have a separate section now with so many threads floating around like ISI , BENIS, TSP original one, about Partition, Af-Pak, POK, Economic stress, US + China role inTSP, managing TSP failure, role in global terror, minorities, formation and evolution, IWT, Dawood Gilani, SES, Nuclear Threat.

Pakistan is an irrational state which kills innocent civilians for sinister purposes and thats exactly what we should see them for. Sometimes I just don't get the reason for this over-analysis.

Just my 2 paisa !!!

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 13 May 2011 00:45

I think its important that the words 'state', 'islamic' and 'terrorist' feature in the name. People should associate these tags with Pak subliminally (ala Derren Brown http://derrenbrown.co.uk/).

'Kabila' etc wont resonate with people. This will also ensure that people know that terror will continue regardless of the kind of state that exists - military or democratic or whatever. No leeway for this 'non state actors nonsense'. If you are a state then you are repsonsible for whatever gies on within your boundaries. If you are not then you cant claim soverignity. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

I vote the name stay the way it is with the addition of 'Islamic' to the name.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 13 May 2011 00:49

^^ Apologies and correction. I vote the name stay the same with the addition of the word 'State' to the name.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 13 May 2011 05:52

Akshay Kapoor wrote:I think its important that the words 'state', 'islamic' and 'terrorist' feature in the name.....

....... I vote the name stay the way it is with the addition of 'Islamic' to the name.

I have to disagree, strongly, because;

A] Their claim to being "Islamic", while the top generals drink their whiskey, smoke their tobacco and chase their women, lays bear the fact that the word "Islamic" is just a marketing ploy they use to rope-in the gullible faithfools in service of their anti-India agenda. DON'T BELIEVE THEIR HYPE!

B] The threat posed by the TSP is not exclusively "Islamically motivated", as they have also supported other anti-India terrorists, notably Khalistanis, the LTTE and Naxals, not to mention a hardcore criminal element, most famously "DI".

C] Among many people in the world, the word "Islamic" does not -- in and of itself -- engender the kind of instantaneous revulsion that a good thread title for the TSP ought to. IMO, a good thread title for the TSP should make even pious muslims take a step back from Pakistan. More to the point; what is so "Islamic" about opium cultivation and narco-trafficking? Don't let the TSP keep their "Islamic" 'fig leaf'. LET THEIR SHAME SHOW TO THE WHOLE WORLD!

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 13 May 2011 06:03

The thread should stay as is, and my reasons are :

1) It has all the key words that would show up in a web search : Terrorist, Islamic, Pakistan

2) Many of the options presented, though pleasing to a jingo and likely to cause heartburn in a paklurk, will not mean much to most people outside the region, OR are so obviously jingoistic that the said readers will immediately discount the opinions as being totally biased.

JMTC, from the point of view of disseminating anti-Paki seeds far and wide. Fertilizer for the seeds is provided free, by Pakis themselves.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2011 06:16

Johann wrote:
Rahul M wrote:how about "Terror Central : The Military State of Pakistan"
I voted against a name-change, but if I could I would reverse in favour of what youve come up with.

It is crisp, accurate, and uses a term ('Terror Central') that is already in circulation and associated with Pakistan.

Changing your vote is allowed in this poll - just like campaigning will be allowed after the poll

The name Rahul has come up with is better than all the other "good" ones I had in mind.

"Terror Central : The Military State of Pakistan - news and discussion 26 Nov 2008"

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 May 2011 07:00

Pakistan: Islamist, Nuclear Terrorist state/central.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 13 May 2011 09:50

"Terrorist Military Elites of Pakistan"

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 13 May 2011 10:52

No!
This moment is not for renaming the thread. This moment is for that knowledge and enlightenment to sink in. Terrorism , OBL and PAkistan have all become synonymous. PLease keep in mind that this will lead to more searches on Pakistan's complicity. For serious researchers and reporters, the name will have to remain the same for them to come here.

Fidel Guevara · Post by **Fidel Guevara** » 13 May 2011 16:28

shiv wrote:how about "Terror Central : The Military State of Pakistan"

[/quote]

Shiv, please, no! This will only propagate the idea of Pakistan as a Spartan ("bloody civilians") state ruled by Scotch-drinking, polo-playing aristocratic macho generals under siege by cowardly poverty-stricken SDREs (see that 1960's TV item about Tatta Khan or whatever his name was).

Googlefu tells us that "Pakistan" should be right up front, so "Pakistan:Terror Central" would be better, if you absolutely have to change. But let's not propagate any of this "military state" stuff.

But again, why change? And what is your 10-step change management strategy to wean us off this bulwark of BR?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2011 20:47

Fidel Guevara wrote:
But again, why change? And what is your 10-step change management strategy to wean us off this bulwark of BR?

Change should never be permanent. But lack of change should not be permanent either.

In the case of a thread title admins have absolute rights to change them if need be - so a change of thread title is no big deal.

The fact that Pakistan is related to terrorism was unknown (or not acknowledged) by the USA till 9-11. But the killling of Osama was the final nail in the coffin. There is an indelible link in the minds of people all over he world betwen Pakistan and terrorism.

How does this help us Indians?

It helps us only so far. It helps because other countries will not be more prone to "understanding" Indian viewpoint about Pakistan when terrorism occurs in India.

Can we do better? If we can do better what can we do?

I believe we can pin terrorism on some problem group in Pakistan and try and nail that group.

So what group should we try and nail?

1) The population of Pakistan: We can use BRF to say all Pakistanis are terrorists. But in my view this will have limited traction because Pakistan does have friends and there are Pakistanis who have given the impression that they don't support terror (even if they are lying). So there is a credibility problem in nailing all Pakis as terrorists

2) Should we try and nail the LeT or Taliban as terrorists? What for? they are already recognised as terrorists.

3) Should we try and nail the Pakistani army as terrorists? We know they support terrorism, but people like Uneven Cohen and Christine Fair see the Pakistan army as "modern and secular" - fighting a genuine fight against bigoted Indians. But the worst thing from the Indian viewpoint is that they get the most money from the US and the arms.

As I see it an effort to link the Pakistan army with terror in the "public information space" is well worth it for India and Indians and probably more likely to find supporters than calling all Pakistanis terrorists - even if the latter is true.

Trying to nail the Paki army is a small tactic in a larger information war - which is all that we can do on BRF. If we don't do that nothing will happen, but if we can do something, I believe this is the next step to take. Smear the Paki army.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 May 2011 23:44

should we restart the poll with a clear explanation of what we want the title to be ? (say, connect the facts that it is a military controlled state that is the nursery of global terror)

lots of people seem to be confused by the plethora of choices. shiv ji ?

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 14 May 2011 05:02

Pakistan Army of Terrorist Evil and Rogue Nukes
PATERN

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 May 2011 06:03

Rahul M wrote:should we restart the poll with a clear explanation of what we want the title to be ? (say, connect the facts that it is a military controlled state that is the nursery of global terror)

lots of people seem to be confused by the plethora of choices. shiv ji ?

Rahul it retrospect it is clear to me that your observation is right. My first post only gave people the impression that I had decided on a name. I am sure a better poll can be done. Do you want to have a go - or perhaps let people fight it out on this thread and then come up with a poll after everyone has had a chance to mull on what others feel.

Clearly I botched this poll by failing to be clear of what the objectives were.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 14 May 2011 12:07

Some people have expressed the view that 'military' should feature in the thread. Lets think that through. By linking Paki terror to the military the obvious reaction is that the military creates terror to perpetuate itself and that if Pak becomes democratic then this problem goes away. How do you resolve this - support Pak, pour money into Pak, dont be too harsh etc etc. But Pak is already a democracy and has a great record of merrily exporting terror even while being one and of being hostile to India. Pak and the average Pakistani see themselves as 'saif ul islam - the sword of islam'. Will this change with the political dispensation in Pak? So by stressing on military we will actually give them a way out of the international opprobrium they are facing now and be encouraging more aid ad sympathy to boot!

Remeber the problem from Pak is not only terror, what about conventional war? Terror is just one tool to achieve their objectives.

Lets not DILUTE the pressure on Pak!

And to answer another comment above I do believe that 'Islamic' is increasingly seen as equivalent to terror in the western world. The governments and media might be very careful about it but in Europe it is certainly seen as very -ve by the people. North America might be different ofcourse. 'Re Paki generals drinking whisky, I can tell you some stories about Saudi security chiefs!'

Khalistan was and Naxalism is completely a different phenomenon and I would not club them with Pak terror. Not least because then an obvious question is 'Why does India always have terror problems. What are they doing wrong? Maybe the terrorists are correct'. With respect, I would urge that we stay away from that.

So again (are dual votes allowed;-)) I say the name of the thread is genius and I vote not to change it.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 14 May 2011 12:27

'The population of Pakistan: We can use BRF to say all Pakistanis are terrorists. But in my view this will have limited traction because Pakistan does have friends and there are Pakistanis who have given the impression that they don't support terror (even if they are lying). So there is a credibility problem in nailing all Pakis as terrorists'

Sir, thats the beauty subliminal messages. You dont have to say anything directly/consciously. The message is is subtly conveyed via the instrument - in this case the tag 'Terror, Islamic, State, Pakistan'. Thats it. The job will be done by people seeing and hearing these words together again and again not by reading analysis or reasoning. If the tag sticks it sticks subconciously and regardless of what the conscious mind thinks it slowly does it job. So even if you say ' the average Pakistani is a gandhian' the subconcious does not accept that and that will reflect in your actions.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 14 May 2011 12:37

Pakistani Army Kabilla of Internationally-Sponsored Terrorism and Atomic Nihilism

P-A-K-I-S-T-A-N

PAKISTAN

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 14 May 2011 14:01

^^^ Good one. But majority of lurkers are not going to be able to straightaway absorb Nihilism, it is not simple enough for direct assimilation into the subconscious mind. You need a 5-10 minute philosophy introduction plus a peep into the dictionary to get it.

PATERN is much simpler. Doesnt make BRF look like a forum for geeks only. I dont mean to offend here, just a casual observation. We all know that brand naming can be a tough exercise!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 May 2011 14:54

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Some people have expressed the view that 'military' should feature in the thread. Lets think that through. By linking Paki terror to the military the obvious reaction is that the military creates terror to perpetuate itself and that if Pak becomes democratic then this problem goes away. How do you resolve this - support Pak, pour money into Pak, dont be too harsh etc etc. But Pak is already a democracy and has a great record of merrily exporting terror even while being one and of being hostile to India.

I believe that you are extrapolating the influence of a change of thread name too far. The change in name of the thread is to attempt highlight the malicious role of the Pakistani army to visitors and lurkers on the forum. If that name change is going to bring the army down and generate funds for the non army civilians of Pakistan in the manner you have extrapolated - I am all for it because as soon as the army is disempowered we could change the name of the thread again and make sure Pakis are screwed. And when that is done - we change again and bring the state crashing down. QED.

Sadly the thread name does not have djinn power. The idea of a name change is for a very limited and narrow goal on BRF and is not expected to have an effect on Pakistan per se. I am stating this for at least the third time. The name does not have much power - but it has a little power. it has the power of suggesting things to readers who will insidiously spread the word in innumerable blogs and forums.

If the name is changed today and its effect is not found to be positive - it can always be changed back. A thread name change is neither permanent nor earth shaking in its geopolitical import. So please don't get carried away.

vanand · Post by **vanand** » 14 May 2011 18:12

I feel we put it as
Pakistan Terrorist-e-Azam or Pakistan Terror-e-Azam

means Pakistan the greatest of terror or terrorist

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 14 May 2011 21:23

Pakistan Army Kabilla for Nuclear Umbrella Terrorism

PAKNUT

OR

Pakistan Army Kabilla for Nuclear Umbrella Terrorism Sponsorship

PAKNUTS

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 14 May 2011 21:38

Pakistani Army Kabilla for Industrial Scale Terrorism and Nuclear Extortion for Export

PAKISTANEE

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 14 May 2011 21:59

Hahahahha, Shiv sir yeah that would be cool wouldnt it if a name change on a BR thread was so effective. I can think of a few things I'd ask for !

But seriously a narrative is being built out there and in a small way this thread will also contribute to it. After all one of the ways opinion is formed is through reading formus like these. So it was worth pointing out that focusing on the 'army' would make lurkers focus on the chain of thought which the DDM are espousing.

How about?

Terror Central - The Islamic Republic of Pakistan

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 14 May 2011 22:31

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Pakistani Army Kabilla for Industrial Scale Terrorism and Nuclear Extortion for Export

PAKISTANEE

Hahahaha. Pretty neat.

OT - Sir can you come up with something on PAKI. Would like to try it on a few people.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 May 2011 22:56

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Pakistani Army Kabilla for Industrial Scale Terrorism and Nuclear Extortion for Export

PAKISTANEE

Or Pakistan Army Kabila for Islamic Soosai Terrorism and Nuclear Extortion for Export?

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 15 May 2011 01:24

^^^Akshay Kapoor,

In the Western world, the word "Paki" is a racial epithet, and would apply equally to someone of Pakistani and of Indian origin. For this reason, the term does BRF a disservice, and IMO should not figure into things, in any way. Quite frankly, I think it denegrates the discourse here. I find the term quite vulgar. I do not support it, and I never use it.

^^^shiv,

By using the word "Islamic", you are advocating for their "brand".

Pakistani-sponsored, so-called "Islamic" terrorism is about as Islamic as Maple-smoked Canadian bacon.

Don't perpetuate their lies! Don't allow them that cover!

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 15 May 2011 01:59

We know onlee thing at Industrial scale in Pakistan is inbreeding beside terrorism A La Carte.
Pakistan is a Terrorist Super Power (TSP)

Jaahan har corner orr har family me Incest karre basera
Woh Pakistan DJinna terra,
Jahan paat paat orr daal daal pe terrorist karre basera
Woh Pakisatan Unkil Terra.
Jai WOT, Jai WOT!

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 15 May 2011 02:43

Pakistani-sponsored, so-called "Islamic" terrorism is about as Islamic as Maple-smoked Canadian bacon.
Don't perpetuate their lies! Don't allow them that cover!

Can't speak for the angry young man Shivullah but I will accept your logic only when the rakhwale of Islam from all over the world will openly denounce Pakistan's brand of Islam and G-had. They should either support it or openly oppose it just as in you 'either' eat pork or you don't.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 15 May 2011 02:46

Pakistan: Nuclear Jih-a-di Soosai bummar Walmart

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 15 May 2011 02:57

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:^^^Akshay Kapoor,

In the Western world, the word "Paki" is a racial epithet, and would apply equally to someone of Pakistani and of Indian origin. For this reason, the term does BRF a disservice, and IMO should not figure into things, in any way. Quite frankly, I think it denegrates the discourse here. I find the term quite vulgar. I do not support it, and I never use it.

The same Western World does not care about the terrorism launched by Pakistan onto India.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 15 May 2011 03:14

SwamyG wrote:
Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:^^^Akshay Kapoor,

In the Western world, the word "Paki" is a racial epithet, and would apply equally to someone of Pakistani and of Indian origin. For this reason, the term does BRF a disservice, and IMO should not figure into things, in any way. Quite frankly, I think it denegrates the discourse here. I find the term quite vulgar. I do not support it, and I never use it.
The same Western World does not care about the terrorism launched by Pakistan onto India.

That's exactly my point. That's why I think the thread title should underscore the international threat posed by the TSP's nuclear-enabled trans-national terrorism.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 15 May 2011 05:30

My point why care about their racial biases and prejudices if a term fits Indian needs? Is Paki used in negative connotation in India or Pakistan?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 May 2011 05:38

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote: Don't perpetuate their lies! Don't allow them that cover!

No No. Of course not. I was only joining the acronym bandwagon with a feeble attempt at variation..

But I was personally instrumental in including the word Islamic in the current title for the precise reason that Mahendra has stated.

I think the Islamic bandwagon has been milked well. Even if we drop it - it is now acceptable to re use it if need be.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 15 May 2011 08:32

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Pakistani Army Kabilla for Industrial Scale Terrorism and Nuclear Extortion for Export

PAKISTANEE

Heh, me likey!

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 15 May 2011 08:52

SPECTRE - the Special Executive for Counterintelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion. TSP should be the focus of future Bond movies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECTRE

The name of the Pakistan discussion thread should be changed