India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 02 Nov 2011 02:37

Theo_Fidel wrote:More OT but...

That is still a disruption of transport links. If the refineries had been targeted there would not be scrap of them left standing. Fail to see any strategic independence Gaddafi's cheap oil energy created for him.

People should focus on the idea that our domestic fuels are Hydro, Coal, Wind and Sun.
How does depending on imported Uranium/Reactors improve our Strategic independence. Can anyone answer that?

More OT,

today India imports a very large part of its coal. There is a reason why the new power plants are around the coasts. So coal, the most probable of them, doesnt actually improve strategic independence. Hydro, not much resources left in south and centre to increase more.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 02 Nov 2011 02:38

The silence continues...

Viru,

We have more coal in the ground than we know what to do with. Getting it out is the question. Importing is easier/cheaper right now.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Nov 2011 03:22

The govt and NPCIL response to the KK power plant agitation is due to wrong formulation of the problem. They are trying to solve the wrong problem precisely. They are looking at it as a technical problem while it involves people, emotions, politics and even ethics.
Yes ethics. The very same govt did didly squat to ease sufferings of the Bhopal victims.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 02 Nov 2011 03:25

^ TF, most of coal is also of poor quality.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 02 Nov 2011 03:31

Theo,

you are getting emotional and have transitioned form "supporting" the ideologues behind the protest to supporting the "cause". you've generally been positive about Nuclear energy and commented positively on Nuclear finds and development in India. but on the KDKM issue, you're now questioning the necessity of the plant itself. seems like the emotional factors are causing you to pick an option which I doubt you would have supported only a month ago...

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 02 Nov 2011 03:56

TF,

Today anti-nuclear movements attack nuclear energy programs. If they succeed here, they shall start mobilizing to a previously unseen extent against our nuclear weapons program as well.

In and around strategic facilicites like uranium mines, military reactors, etc the same objection will be raised. Picketing against such facilities will be done. Are you then going to say that we should wind up the nuke weapons program and that people should get used to the fact that conventional weapons are the only legitimate means for deterring hostile external action ?

This thin edge of the wedge is the main concern. Why are the KNPP protestors also raising anti-nuclear weapons slogans ? That should not be not a matter of concern for them: especially when KNPP is not a military facility. Why the talk of targetting Kalpakkam for such protests when the Kalpakkam comple is well established ? These indicate motives targetting our nuclear deterrent in the long run. What do you have to say about this ?

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 02 Nov 2011 04:10

TF

Regarding the pollution caused by Coal/fossil fuels: it is ongoing and at least as damaging to public health as that caused by nuclear plants. Even though I agree depending on imported uranium/reactors does nothing for strategic autonomy, the fast breeder program and the use of Thorium fuelled reactors is crucial to acheiving strategic autonomy (given that such a course of action leaves us with large stocks of WGPu as well). When the likes of S P Udaykumar target this as well, one gets questions about their real agenda. More so when this comes at a time when TSP and PRC have their own accelerated nuke buildup.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 02 Nov 2011 04:41

>>Lets take the second part of that argument. All the Nuclear equipment is coming from abroad. All the fuel is coming from abroad. Annually about 500 tonnes of Uranium to Kudankulam alone. All the training and spare parts will come from abroad in perpetuity. I have a hard time understanding how this increases our strategic autonomy.

The plants will be here and the fuel is not subject to sudden disruptions, or sanctions. The suppliers are not, generally speaking, as fickle as the suppliers of fossil fuels. The impact will not be immediate. We will have time to work out options. Plus the beauty is that, now that the civil-nuke agreement is in place, the suppliers will be wary about sanctioning as there will be countries that might step into the breach... Especially as we keep growing economically. And that is something that we need to do with no obstacle likely to be permitted to come in the way.

Again, it is not about nuclear alone (rounding error or not). It is about diversifying and increasing our options. As many as possible. We cannot foreclose the nuclear power generation option.

Once again, my point is not about the people protesting and demanding greater assurance and information. My gripe is against church involvement here. Wise priests have no business instigating or inciting protests, let alone coming out with statements about energy policy. Their involvement will give rise to questions about their motivations and bring a whole lot of extraneous issues into the picture. It is ill advised and unwise.

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 02 Nov 2011 04:51

deleted.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 02 Nov 2011 05:09

Surasena,

Above has no connection to the thread topic. I suggest you yourself delete it and, if you wish, re-post it into the "Analysis of Political Christianity" thread in the General Discussion Forum.

In 12 hours I will delete it myself if the post is still here.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 02 Nov 2011 06:05

I do agree that it is not good for religious leaders to incite or lead protests though I don't believe that has happened. Still perceptions are important. I'm visiting Nagerkovil for a short while next month and to the very limited extent of my voice I can pass on a word or two to ask the religious people I know to tone down their involvement. It is still up to them however and I do think that message has already been passed on to them. I'm unfortunately not visiting Nazereth or I could have tried to meet the Bishop there but I will try to pass a word on to him as well. My uncle is his fairly close friend.

That said when the people ask/tell their Bishop of their concerns he must be free to advise them of what his moral position is.
-----------------------------------------------

First KKNPP is built. It will run. It will run for 40 years as well. The key question is the rules under which it will operate over the next 40 years. Right now some Dilli-Billi makes up these rules and shoves it down the peoples throat. This is completely unacceptable. KKNPP can only run in a a partnership between NPCIL and the Locals. This is the problem NPCIL has, of giving up some of its overwhelming power and freedom to pollute. The locals must be allowed to monitor its activities, within limits and to continual work with the operators and an independent safety agency to comment on and improve safety and reduce pollution levels. Similar to Massaland and Oirope. No such mechanism is in place at the moment.

This is a function of India running its nuclear program on the cheap so far. This is completely unacceptable after Fukushima. Especially now that we have a giant commercial sized operation, previous operating mechanisms are simply not acceptable any longer. When the locals ask where the nuclear waste will go and how the plant is going to be decommissioned, Nuclear agencies better have a darn good answer and invest in the technologies to make this happen. When locals ask how many of the perimeter radiation monitors are functioning and what their readings are NPCIL better cough up the info right away.

NPCIL needs to be beaten into a purely professional organization that deals with management and public relations professionally. Similar to a large private sector corporation such as Chevron. Right now they are shooting from the hip and taking out random targets and even their own supporters.

KKNPP will only be run on a trust but verify TEN times basis. NPCIL & GOI has not got this message through their heads yet.
--------------------------------------------------------

WRT the potential strategic freedom we might have to agree to disagree. On sanctions, history tells us that having foreign equipment did not save us in the past. Tarapur & Narora are living examples of the losses suffered as a result. Even now Unkil is the only reason we have waiver. None of the other countries will back us up and most are quite hostile to even supplying us Uranium. Finally Unkil changes all the time, all it takes is one senile old cranky senator and our much celebrated waiver will be in the gutter. As it is the waiver has suffered some serious mutilating with large chunks of Nuclear equipment no longer available to us.

Keep in mind a Nuclear reactor is a massive investment and only way the economics work out is if the equipment is flogged at 100% load for 40 years+. Anything less is a loss to the nation. You can see that it will not take much to push our investment into the red. Kalpakkam for instance has been 'de-rated' for a long time and rarely exceeds 60% PLF due to fuel issues. Far from giving us independence spending $150 Billion could easily turn into a millstone around our collective necks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile. Sounds like it is time to arrest Vijaykant and deal with him 'severely'

......

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tam ... 588894.ece

Making some headway towards resolution of the Kudankulam issue, anti-plant protesters on Tuesday decided to nominate two of their members in the expert committee to be set up by the Tamil Nadu government. The protesters, however, made it clear that they would not hold talks with the 15-member committee set up by the Centre till the work at the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Plant (KNPP) was stopped.

S.P. Udhayakumar, the movement’s leader, told reporters here that the protesters had named Jesuraj and Pushparayan to be appointed to the committee when the Tamil Nadu government had asked them for their nominees. Anti-KNPP activists had on Monday sought a clarification from the state government whether any work was being carried out at the plant even as they continued their stir demanding its closure.

In Chennai, DMDK leader Vijaykant slammed the Centre for .“complicating” the Koodankulam stand—off and said it should take all efforts to solve the issue through talks.

“Union Minister of State V Narayanasamy’s recent (reported) remarks that the protestors were taking to the route of violence by blocking plant employees from proceeding to work gives room to apprehensions whether the Centre wants to deal this issue as a law and order matter,” he said.

Vijaykant, the Leader of the Opposition in the Assembly, expressed fears that the Centre, instead of solving the issue, was planning to turn it into a law and order issue and deal it with “oppression.” “It is well—known that scores of protestors including children have been peacefully protesting. Centre should realise this and solve the matter through dialogue with them. It is condemnable that Centre is complicating the matter further by delaying it,” he said in a statement.

He said that all efforts should be taken by the Centre on the lines of the state government resolution, calling for allaying people’s fears before proceeding with the Indo—Russian joint venture.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Nov 2011 10:39

ramana wrote:The govt and NPCIL response to the KK power plant agitation is due to wrong formulation of the problem. They are trying to solve the wrong problem precisely. They are looking at it as a technical problem while it involves people, emotions, politics and even ethics.
Yes ethics. The very same govt did didly squat to ease sufferings of the Bhopal victims.

Brilliantly expressed Ramana Saar. Very succinct yet goes right to the heart of the matter.

(Yes I am your lackey side kick onlee)

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 02 Nov 2011 10:43

Theo_Fidel wrote: This is a function of India running its nuclear program on the cheap so far. This is completely unacceptable after Fukushima. Especially now that we have a giant commercial sized operation, previous operating mechanisms are simply not acceptable any longer. When the locals ask where the nuclear waste will go and how the plant is going to be decommissioned, Nuclear agencies better have a darn good answer and invest in the technologies to make this happen. When locals ask how many of the perimeter radiation monitors are functioning and what their readings are NPCIL better cough up the info right away.

KKNPP will only be run on a trust but verify TEN times basis. NPCIL & GOI has not got this message through their heads yet.

As both of us have been screaming our lungs out for some time. The above is the absolute Key.

No one expects NPICL or DAE to have all the answers, however they must be able to convincingly demonstrate that they are doing whatever it takes.

The first & simplest step is to have a completely independent agency for oversight, under a different sub-ministry preferably -- for civilian plants. If IAEA can inspect them, why not a independent Indian body?

Why is GoI not moving?

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Nov 2011 15:49

It is rather funny to see religion being mixed with the Nuclear Debate here. If concerns are being raised those need to be answered rather than debating the religion of the protestors or their leaders. Is is another matter that most of the people who might be affected belong to a particular religion in and around that area.

The present dispensation has their credibility so dented that any assurance given by their interlocutors would be viewed with utmost suspicion.

The Govt has to come out with detailed findings and recommendations and a roadmap for implementation post Fukushima Disaster.
The review committee is yet to come out with its analysis , findings and recommendations.

It is a myth that Nuclear Energy would figure any prominently in India's energy mix. In fact Govt policy in this regard and projections by Planning Comm. are very moderate. yes these could be harbinger for Nuclear Scam.

As for Nuclear weapons and non civilian reactors are concerned they are outside of purview of such discussions simply because of the option of last resort. Nuclear accident from Non Civilian reactor is less of an evil than the total annihilation from enemy N bombs. No Such argument is propounded for inevitability of Nuclear energy in India's energy policy. I don't think we would have much reason to oppose 5 or 10% N energy in the energy mix. But basic conditions should be met before we embark on the policy. Since our memory is very short I would like to remind how the hopes have been rekindled by passing 123 in Parliament.

I also don't think there should be any opposition to Independent Regulatory Body.

The Govt should clearly lay down the obligations which would be mandatorily implemented for victims in case disaster strikes.The track record of present INC dispensation is so poor that there should be Independent Body for such purposes. Hack even J. Aahmadi fell pray to the might against Bhopal victims.Can anyone guarantee even minimum requirements would be met?

Whether Gvot has explained what improvements have been made at KKNPP post Fukushima? have they conducted stress test and come out with its results? Please point to that and not some perfunctory cosmetic changes.

btw KKNPP would be operational , i.e. the first one in another months time. Preparations are afoot for that purpose whether GoTN cooperates or not. But the question for remaining set would pose serious challenges. Amma would extract its pound of flesh , no doubt, but other plants would remain in limbo for a long time to come.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Nov 2011 19:04

Confusion upon confusion! So many issues are being clubbed together here.The issue with KKM is NOT about the need for N-power plants,the debate about the morality of N-power,N-weapons,renewable energy,India's N-energy requirements and future roadmap-indigenous thorium fast-breeder route or importing foreign reactors and fuel,and adopting a holistic approach to the entire issue,etc.etc.,but the safety standards adopted by the plant's manufacturers in the light of the Fuku disaster,whether the plant is safe or not.

The KKM plant is a reality.The GOI has invested a massive amount of money into it,adopting the highest safety standards of the time,and has been running N-plants for decades now! KKM also belongs to the entire nation,not just TN alone.TN receives power,fuel,coal from all over the country and abroad and it is juvenile and bigotry at its worst for its jingoistic loudmouthed politicos to try and gain cheap publicity on an issue as serious as this.

It is also patently obvious that vested interests,who have the national interest least in their hearts ,are stirring the pot.The GOI should immediately arrest these individuals who have dubious connections abroad with imediate effect on the grounds of national security.We've the technical report that the reactor has to go on stream and the actions of the leaders of the protests are gravely endangering the safety of the plant.It is an essential service and should be protected with all the might that we have.

The manner in which the issue of plant safety is now morphing into an issue about our N-deterrent,completely ignoring the threat from China and Pak and the fact that the Paki N-weapons production is the highest in the world,shows that the vested interests have a foreign angle to them.Unfortunately,the so-called "Christian" leaders spearheading the protests ,are doing so for their own personal reasons and some appear to be guided by their foreign paymasters.In fact the manner in which some are behaving lead one to wonder whether they are agent-provocateurs or clerics whose duty is to teach their faith to their flock.Did not Christ say "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's"? In other words,without prejudice to the issue of safety, allow the state to manage the issue and do so calmly without mischievously engaging in scare-mongering and concentrate upon your task at hand,religious instruction! UNfortunately,as I've shown in a brief expose,the so-called "Christian" morally bishops on TN have so many scoundrels amongst their midst,indulging in all manner of crimes which are in the courts and even under CBI investigations,that their leadership of this movement is massively suspect.

If I was the PM I would send out a stern warning to the leaders of the protests that while the GOI was reviewing the safety issues with special scientific experts who would educate the public about their fears and take whatever extra measures were neccessary,any attempts to sabotage the plant would be considered an act of treason and that the heavy hand of the law would not be found wanting.Foreign NGOs also stirring the pot need to be arrested,investigated for espionage activities and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned,the rest,deported.If need be even imposing central rule in the state for a period of time,arrresting all troublemakers whatever their political hue, should be planned for in case the situ gets out of hand. This is a time for national parties to "gang together" in the national interest.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 02 Nov 2011 19:13

Some interesting stuff in WaPo about nuclear testing:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... story.html

"Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), who has long opposed the treaty, said: “Computer simulation is a part of the stockpile stewardship program, which scientists say has been helpful. One told me it produced good news and bad news. The good news is that it tells us a lot more about these weapons than we ever knew before. The bad news is that it tells us the weapons have bigger problems that we realized. While computers are helpful, they’re not a substitute for testing. That’s why, even though we’re not testing right now, we should not give up the legal right to test.”

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Nov 2011 19:23

Clouded mind , Simplistic view and national interests nixed with religion are the best arguments to set up Nuclear plant. What we did not do for 60 years has become question of life and death .

The one that is there would go on steam but what about the rest?

Who has said that they reviewed and then implemented advanced safety features in the light of Fuk-D. Are the details made available even if that is only one of the question. The credibility is closely linked to Independent regulator and safety commission or Board on which Govt is prevaricating. What about liability clauses. How many of us are really satisfied? And whose national interest GE or Westinghouse or Russians or Areva ? How should we define national interest?

And of course parties would gang together as we saw in many scams, only to repent at leisure.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 02 Nov 2011 20:20

http://www.livenewsindia.com/news/india ... y-thorium/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... lear-plant

Apparently we are planning to have a thorium reactor working by the end of the decade. So our thorium plans are still very much on the cards.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Nov 2011 20:23

A Nandy wrote:http://www.livenewsindia.com/news/india ... y-thorium/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... lear-plant

Apparently we are planning to have a thorium reactor working by the end of the decade. So our thorium plans are still very much on the cards.

It was never abandoned. The only thing I see with 123 is replay of Cray-XMP saga if members remember.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 02 Nov 2011 20:44

replay of Cray-XMP saga if members remember.

Yes, I have vague recollections of reading about it. Its what lead to the PARAM computers for space, weather and nuclear research.

Was reading about it here :

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=zcyl ... ia&f=false

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 02 Nov 2011 21:20

Chaanakya,

I asked that very question. Why is this a cause for Strategic independence. No real well thought out answers so far.

-Typical response is 'THE BOMB' is in danger, never mind that 30 years of vicious sanctions did not make us give it up.
- Or it will give us independence from fossil energy and we need every bit of power. Which kind of makes sense except when you consider the actual math involved. It will do nothing of the kind.
- It is cheap power, which has been proven false and is quite laughable considering the open ended long term costs involved.
- Not only that the people of TN should keep in mind that after all this sacrifice only 1000 MW of the 2000MW will be coming to TN. This is about the same as the recent expansion of Mettur Thermal so the impact on power availability in TN will be fairly minimal.
-------------------------------------------------------------
This is OT...

WRT Phillip, he can longer distinguish between Pakistanis and Indians. Lost in the woods and foaming at the mouth, he attacks both with the same language and rhetoric. He thinks this is acceptable. Incredibly he thinks he is a new Martin Luther.

The problem within the Church is that as I have pointed out before the extremely deprived communities are now the majority. This has not gone down well with the old English speaking righty-tighty types. The real problem is that the Church owns a lot of property and rents from these are quite astronomical right now. All contracts now go to the deprived christian groupings who are essentially now in charge. They don't even make a pretense of trying to work out a compromise with the ancien regime.

He lacks the knowledge to know that the Christian community in Kanyakumari area is not the extremely deprived community and does not get along very well with the CSI. We are no longer the majority christian group in TN. My community is no longer represented even minimally within the Church hierarchy. And the corruption within the Church is quite bad but no worse than when the 'upper' communities were in charge back in the day, except they conducted their corruption in English while sipping Whisky and Cigars, which made it all kosher. Every time he opens his mouth he displays his ignorance and lack of knowledge on the ground. Google can be such a misleading female dog....

What does this all have to do with Kudankulam, who knows... ....I'd suggest not trying a rational conversation with him at least....
-----------------------------------------------------------

WRT Thorium, it is still not clear that the full cycle is financially or economically or even Neutron efficiency wise viable. It kinda works on paper but even the small prototypes have given very ambiguous results. A dozen different teams in different countries have tried to make the Thorium cycle or at least the U-238 cycle work efficiently and all have thrown up their hands in defeat over the past 50 years.

The main problem is that all human systems are inefficient and extremely energy/material wasteful. Even the car in your drive way only converts about 15% of the energy in gasoline to useful work. Material efficiency is even poorer. Only about 50% of the Iron mined is actually turned into useful product. Yet somehow efficiency has to approach 100% to make the material/Neutron cycle work.

Thinks of the problem this way.
Imagine you had a 1 ton lump of coal. You now mix it with 200 tonnes of other dangerous chemicals and burn the entire thing and reduce it to ash. Now there is 1.1 tonnes of coal dust mixed in with all kinds of radioactive, toxic and highly poisonous stuff. So you take that 201.1 tonnes of stuff, spend a small fortune in energy, recover every speck of that 1.1 tonnes of coal, leaving 200 tonnes of toxic material still hanging around. No to mention we do not know how to burn that coal mix 100% everytime either. So, you now burn that 1.1 tonnes of coal to get 1.21 tonnes of coal and so on 10 times to get enough for one more reactor. The material recovery efficiency has to be on the order of 99.98% or one part in 500 to make the process even minimally viable. This in effect is what they are trying in Kalpakkam, Prototype FBR. Yes, prototype. No one knows if it will work. The DAE itself acknowledges the full cycle is at least 30 years away. 2040 anyone.

Will they succeed, who knows... ...The Americans, Dutch, Canadians, Russians and most recently the French gave up after spending Billions of $... ...several programs did not even recover enough energy to pay the costs (Financial and Energy) of all the reprocessing needed..

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 03 Nov 2011 04:08

@Theo_Fidel ^^^: "It is cheap power, which has been proven false and is quite laughable considering the open ended long term costs involved."

No energy is 'cheap'. If you think about it, the next leg of human development will depend on leveraging every form of energy to produce an ?X return in benefits to make lives better and productive. No electricity no development. Hydro in India is controversial, fossil ditto, offshore drilling--the fisherfolk object. nukes post Fukushima have their own detractors. So we are left with trying to lift 300MM out of poverty through development and we need energy to power it. It will require a mix of everything.

On the 1000MW TN thing, yes we can argue 1/2 the benefit for 100% of the 'cost'. So can any other state in India. I remember the Cauvery protests in Karnataka. The 'most deprived' members of society are the ones who can most easily whipped up to go against something. Heck, they are whipped up every day to burn buses/trains they ride.

I am not belittling any of your arguments. I am just wondering what the realistic alternatives are in the 'short run' meaning the here and now years of the 300MM Indians not to mention the young who need a future. Not taking their future into account is a huge cost perhaps the highest one.

ankitash · Post by **ankitash** » 03 Nov 2011 05:19

Apologies if this has been posted before

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/ ... aphic.html

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 03 Nov 2011 06:29

ankitash wrote:Apologies if this has been posted before

l

^^ Ankitash jee,

Thank you for that but unfortunately that is not very useful. you see we on the forum are currently role playing. So think of us like the proverbial 'village idiot' you need to convince that the nuke energy is a safe alternative.

All that statistical transparency you have put up is of no use because it is technical in nature and we village idiots don't like data. We want philosophical transparency

So far suggestions have ranged from - 'trust but verify' and 'form an independent committee under a separate ministry within GOI' (a contradiction in terms I know but what to do?)

What has the GOI done so far? we ask. Well the answer is:

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2820/st ... 011100.htm

the government introduced the Nuclear Safety Regulatory Authority (NSRA) Bill in the Lok Sabha on September 7, a day before the House adjourned at the end of the monsoon session. The Bill had been cleared by the Union Cabinet on August 30. It will now be referred to the Parliamentary Standing Committee before it is passed by the two Houses. The Department of Atomic Energy (DAE) would like to have the Bill passed before the end of the year.

Will this be adequate? I don't know. Remember you are dealing with the likes of Praful Bidwai ('A nuclear reactor is basically a barely controlled nuclear bomb' - his exact quote I kid you not). But it does resonate with us villagers and we would like to be reassured, shorn of technical jargon

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 03 Nov 2011 12:07

TOI, 03. Nov 2011
NSG norms make Russia rethink N-plant in India

In order to stay within the red lines of NSG diktats, Russia wants ENR plant to be built on Russian soil. Many in this thread were of the opinion that Russia will flout NSG "guidelines" to India's benefit!

India is sinking deeper and deeper into the quagmire of the misbegotten nuclear deal.

Edit: Typo corrected

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Nov 2011 12:10

Sanatanan wrote: India is sinking deeper and deeper into the quqagmire of the misbegotten nuclear deal.

and then some

Sanatanan · Post by **Sanatanan** » 03 Nov 2011 12:33

IBNLive, 01 Nov 2011 (3 days old; apologies if already posted)
Infants to fast against Koodankulam n-plant

Bad idea.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 03 Nov 2011 13:44

Reprocessing is a double edged sword for the west. If reprocessing technology is developed, it will end the monopoly of fuel suppliers (as fuel can be reused). With that will end the use of fuel controls as a geopolitical control (as we saw in Tarapur, and many other cases).

But the west also needs to allow cheap energy to flow to the developing world to sustain its own unsustainable lifestyle. In their plan, the developing world will provide the cheap goods and labour that the west needs. In addition, growing developing economies also allows paper profits from investments by the west. All this needs cheap energy - for which nuclear is the only alternative to carbon based energy.

Hence, the need to promote nuclear energy, but not reprocessing.

Now relook at the Indo-US nuclear deal in that light.

India has been 'allowed' to buy overpriced western/russian nuclear power (as if this is a blessing for us). But Indian reprocessing capabilities are still in virtual sanctions - with no tech transfer or possibility of entering the global market on equal footing.

And then people used to wonder when I called MMS and co treasonous.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2011 13:54

Poor Theo,he cannot see the wood for the trees.It is he who is "foaming from the mouth",ranting and raving at objective criticism of so-called Xian functionaries who are deeply involved in the protests! Moreover,he has now informed us from his writings that he is not part of the mainstream Xian groups,but must therefore belong to one of the EJ factions! It is these very same EJ factions that are under a cloud of obtaining massive funding overt and covert from abroad,some of whom the Bush /CIA administration were allegedly using as fifth-column assets,partcularly in emote tribal and backward areas.I mentioned some time ago how a friend of mine had his neighbour offered 2 lakhs per family member by a US funded EJ group! Money is playing a huge part in these agitations and sadly Theo cannot see it.He is in denial mode.Some sources have even alleged that some of the funding for the anti-plant agitations are coming from the pro-Eelam Lankan Diaspora,who are already stirring the TN pot to crawl back into the island and continue their mayhem there.This aspect of the protests must also be examined carefully by our intel agencies.Truth is often stranger than fiction.

Notwithstanding his extreme viewpoint,as many have said,it is incumbent upon the GOI to allay the fears of the people.It has not handled the situ well enough,and one cannot expect anything better from the MMS regime.The AEC must also get transparent and come out with the measures it intends to employ for every existing reactor post Fuku,apart from reassuring the locals that the KKM plant is safe.

PS:From his mouthings posted here below and his personal attacks against me,while I have never attacked him personally,he has clearly lost the plot and is trying to shoot the messenger instead of remaining objective and debating with maturity.

Every time he opens his mouth he displays his ignorance and lack of knowledge on the ground. Google can be such a misleading female dog....

What does this all have to do with Kudankulam, who knows... ....I'd suggest not trying a rational conversation with him at least....

At least he acknowldges that I am using my mouth.Unfortunately,he seems to be broadcasting from his lower orifice!

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Nov 2011 13:57

Philip, Theo -> You both have been posting here for long, do we need your personal attacks on each other

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2011 14:07

Aditya,I have never attacked Theo personally,read all my posts on the thread,but he has repeatedly.Please ask him to stop and not me.There are limits.If he cannot debate objectively,wirthout getting personal,then I leave it to the webmasters/moderators to do their duty.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Nov 2011 14:22

Philip; Theo -- I really think you guys might consider not letting the disagreement get to the point that it becomes personal. Sure that happens all the time here, but personally I think both you guys are some what right. Its just that you are both looking from different perspectives to the same matter.

Both can be right, there are as SSridhar said, multiple intertwined issues.

Considering that you are both folks with excellent track record of meaning factual posts, and incidentally I personally end up agreeing with both of you quite often, it certainly would personally pain me if you guys end up "fighting" -- I would humbly request both of you to step back -- and consider each others points as well.

They are after all not antagonistic to each other -- at least in broad contours.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Nov 2011 15:31

Philip wrote: Notwithstanding his extreme viewpoint,as many have said,it is incumbent upon the GOI to allay the fears of the people.It has not handled the situ well enough,and one cannot expect anything better from the MMS regime.The AEC must also get transparent and come out with the measures it intends to employ for every existing reactor post Fuku,apart from reassuring the locals that the KKM plant is safe.

All of us are saying the same thing with different wordings and may be reaching similar conclusions from different viewpoints.
I agree with Sanku san in this regard.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Nov 2011 15:39

arnab wrote:.....'form an independent committee under a separate ministry within GOI' (a contradiction in terms I know but what to do?)

I think that is wrong wordings for what members are asking for.
I think what people think about the Regulatory Body is in the Nature of TRAI or ECI or CAG. Even RTI Commission seems to have become independent. Policy framing and execution is in domain of Legislative and Executive byt Regulatory functions have been made independent being quasi judicial in nature. The contradiction would be apparent for an observer outside the system , ( Such as UN watchdog and we don't want such "independent" bodies). Any such system within the scheme of governance in India having independence from the executive and legislative bodies would be welcome and not contradictory for the Scheme that we follow.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2011 16:06

Tx. guys,I have nothing personal against Theo.I've tried to post reports from media and open sources about the undercurrents in the KK agitation.What is happening with an agitation/protsts first about the plant's safety is now expanding into an entire movement against India's N-power endeavours and stance on nuclear weapons.We have the AEC/IB assessment that "1000 crores" has been spent in stirring the pot at KK. The media reports on how foreign NGOs and their Indian counterparts,aided by pro-active churchmen speak for themselves.When these clerics start a campaign against the plant,which appears more poltiical than mere concern,they are also then open to an examination of their reputations and motives,which is what I've done and the controversies surrounding them are also an open secret.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 03 Nov 2011 17:02

@ sanatanan--

The TOILET article of ENRT that you posted is a lifafa article ... the jernailist is speaking from his musharraf...he has not quoted any source for his info...when TOIleteers write "sources revealed bla bla bla" they are generally buffing and that they have no sources...when Russians themselves are saying that it ll not affect anything , barc (including kakodkar ) said that the deal will not affect any thing..why are op-ed writer having khujli to puke nonsense...

The lefty media is hell against the deal... kakodkars comments were edited and only one sentence was picked up AND was telecast on NDTV in a mnner that served their purpose .... I saw the whole interview on youtube and had posted it earlier...the lefty media is anti-national...

Regarding Koodankulam -- fuel will be reproc. within Indian facilities...India will not become dependant on other countries for reproc...it can keep the plutoniun ... I already posted b4 that this year itself new reproc capacities have come up and that now we can reproc 300 ton a year..by 2020 we ll have capacity to reproc 2000 ton a year...

Anyway read from the agreement it self... state department web page....

http://www.state.gov/p/sca/rls/139194.htm

ARTICLE 1 - NOTIFICATION AND EFFECTIVENESS OF RIGHT TO REPROCESS

1. The Government of India shall notify the Government of the United States of America in writing that it has established a facility (“the Facility”). The notification shall contain:

a. the name of the owner or operator of the Facility;

b. the name, type and location of the Facility and its planned capacity;

c. confirmation that pursuant to Paragraph 14(a) of the India-Specific Safeguards Agreement, as referenced in Article 10(2) of the Agreement for Cooperation, India has notified the Facility to the IAEA for application of IAEA safeguards and that relevant safeguards arrangements have been agreed pursuant to the India-Specific Safeguards Agreement with the IAEA;

d. such information as is available to the Government of India on the IAEA safeguards approach that is not classified as “Safeguards Confidential”; and

e. a confirmation that physical protection measures as required by Article 8 of the Agreement for Cooperation will be applied at the Facility.

Both Parties confirm that the provisions of this Article or any subsequent Article of these Arrangements and Procedures shall not be used to secure any proprietary or commercially sensitive information about the Facility.

2. The Government of the United States of America shall provide an acknowledgement to the Government of India no later than thirty days after receipt of the notification. This acknowledgement shall be limited to a statement that the notification has been received.

3. It is understood that the phrase “the Facility” throughout these Arrangements and Procedures is intended to refer to two new national reprocessing facilities established by the Government of India to reprocess U.S.-obligated nuclear material and any other safeguarded nuclear material and dedicated to the reprocessing and, as required, other alteration in form or content of safeguarded nuclear material under IAEA safeguards, as well as any additional new national facilities established and agreed to in accordance with paragraph 4 of this Article.

4. The Government of the United States of America and the Government of India understand the need for sufficient indigenous Indian capacity to reprocess or otherwise alter in form or content, under IAEA safeguards, U.S.-obligated nuclear material subject to the Agreement for Cooperation. Based on this understanding, the Parties agree to pursue the steps necessary, consistent with their national laws, to permit reprocessing or alteration in form or content of nuclear material subject to the Agreement for Cooperation at one or more new additional national facilities in India, (beyond the two facilities provided for in these Arrangements and Procedures) established by the Government of India and dedicated to the reprocessing and, as required, other alteration in form or content of safeguarded nuclear material under IAEA safeguards. These Arrangements and Procedures shall apply to such facilities upon successful completion of these steps, unless otherwise agreed by the Parties.

Regarding trade of reprocessing ....no country ever trades in that...besides we don't have much to photochor from unkil or roos... roos will provide some help though...Their are some areas in which Indian technology is lacking... For instance in production of Californium which has several civillian applications (fire alarms , corrosion detection by neutron radiography etc)...that is only produced in Russia and Oak-ridge facility in Unkil...since they have a monopoly here it was unlikely that they were ever going share it...that is some thing we ll have to do ourselfs..mind you by the end of the decade even these things will be in India...as far as as fuel for reactors and weapons is concerned , there is not much that they can teach us..whatever they ll offer us will already be known to us...

PS- I am against the large scale imports of LWRs and believe that most of Indian nuke program should be powered by indigenous HWRs , FBRs , CHTRs , and other newer designs (molten Na) which BARC is currently developing...LWR import should be restricted to a few sites....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The act of starving infants is condemnable.....they should be booked for child abuse and criminal negligence and put behind bars ... If a 1 month infant is kept hungry for a few hours it may cause permanent brain damage....it shows the perfidy of those instigating the process...they are pure evil .......

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 Nov 2011 18:09

Involving children is an LTTE tactics and we know that several LTTE sympathizers are leading the KKNPP agitation. Genuine and gullible locals are being led up the garden path by vested interests. These are the group of people with a 'different agenda' on the scene. I hope the simple folks in these villages identify these elements and stay away from them.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Nov 2011 08:14

"A little unexpected" : AEC Chairman

The agitation at Idinthakarai was “a little unexpected” because “a cordial relationship existed all along” between the KKNPP employees and the villagers around, he said.

The KKNPP engineers regularly took part in the education and social programmes of the villages around.

“We were actually looking forward to enriching our relationship with the people around” because nuclear power reactors nowadays had a life-span of 40 years to 60 years. “So it is a big surprise for me” that the agitation had broken out, he said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Nov 2011 08:16

Officials to launch intensive campaign

Mr. Balaji {Site Director of the KKNNP} acknowledged that there was a communication gap that led to panic among the villagers around the project when a mock safety drill was conducted. “We have learnt a lesson in a bitter way,” Mr. Balaji said.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Nov 2011 08:24

Now slowly the missteps that fed the emotional monsters are coming out.