India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

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Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 30 Dec 2011 03:46

Sure we can but... ..for energy our plan is to depend on foreign reactor+fuel.

U-233 needs enrichment tech for Thorium. Unless we get it from a Thorium blanket.

Reprocess only gets us Pu-239. U-235 is already burnt. Need U-233 desperately. BTW these three are the only fissile options. Probably why the PFBR is focusing on breeding U-238 to Pu-239. We won't need enrichment tech for that.

Gerard
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Gerard » 30 Dec 2011 05:07

Tanaji wrote:
I believe we are not allowed to reprocess using our equipment.


I am curious: if indigenous uranium is used in a non safe guarded reactor, why cannot we reprocess?



India can reprocess both non-safeguarded and safeguarded material. It has done so in the past and will continue to do so.
With safeguarded material, the IAEA inspectors arrive. They leave afterwards but the Pu is under safeguards.
India can actually swap material (remove material from safeguards and replace with equal amount of previously non-safeguarded material) under the additional protocol it has with the IAEA. The non proliferation ayatollahs made a fuss about it since India is the only non NWS allowed to do this.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby gakakkad » 30 Dec 2011 07:23



If I understand BARC correctly the CHTR is meant for providing fuel in far flung areas. So far mostly liquid/gas type fuels. The key is the word 'compact'. I guess you could make electricity as well but what would be the point in far flung ares with no grid or access to electric equipment.

The THTR-300 was producing electricity at 35 cents a kw back in the 80's.




Larger sized models of the CHTR can be made. I am not sure about , the cost and nothing is being said in the official site , but I do know that it ll be at par with the existing plants . We cannot extrapolate the German costs then , with the Indian cost today. Bigger reason for decommissioning of CHTR might have been the melt down of AVR (a similar thermal reactor) .


>>I don't think this is true at all. It certainly is not what all the analysts have pointed out. NSG agreements clearly supersede 123. Not just by a little but by a lot. During MMS recent vacation in Russia, even the Russians refused to supply ENR/Processing equipment without NSG say so.
You really want to trust the French? Read this editorial for instance in The Hindu. I don't see how there can be any quibbling.


That was only as per an isolated news report , and it rip offs in other newspapers .The people writing these "editorials" had been against the deal since 2006 . You might remember how NDTV picked up a segment of kakodkars interview and started filling its own words completely changing its meaning .Likewise Chindu has written a lot against the N-deal . Even if we assume , that it is true ,are we worse off than before the deal ? No . Because even before the deal no equipment was supplied to us .

Moreover we can reprocess foreign fuel in our own equipment , as described by Gerard . so we lose nothing .

We are better off actually because now we can buy components with were denied to us previously . (the famous flow meters you might remember).

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 30 Dec 2011 07:30

Gerard wrote:India can reprocess both non-safeguarded and safeguarded material. It has done so in the past and will continue to do so.


Gerard,

There are two questions.

First - our fuel in our unsafe-guarded facility. Unqualified yes.

Second - foreign fuel in our unsafe-guarded facility. (with or without IAEA inspectors). I have to say definite No. So far the agreement is that a facility must be either safe-guarded or unsafe-guarded. It can not be both just based on inspectors.

If we want to process foreign fuel we need a custom built safe-guarded facility. It could potentially use some of our equipment but it would have to be modified to suite the IAEA. This is no small task. We don't have anything like this at present.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby gakakkad » 30 Dec 2011 07:37

>>If we want to process foreign fuel we need a custom built safe-guarded facility.

Just one clarification here . That imported uranium ore will not count as foreign fuel . But only the imported EU/HEU/Pu-239 will count . So if we run a foreign plant with uranium enriched in Indian unguarded plant , than there is no problem . I don't think any country in the world can trade HEU legally without IAEA supervision . It would have been too much to ask HEU from outside and use it to make bum . no one would accept that .

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 30 Dec 2011 08:39

G,

Never been against 123. Just against this belief that it give India complete Nuclear freedom. On par with say Panda. It does nothing of the kind. It forces India into very specific modes of reactor options and fuel options. All to benefit NSG states. We should keep that in mind before cutting a cheque for $150 Billion in foreign reactors. Eyes wide open.

I'm of the belief that if Iran gets NSG guaranteed nuclear supplies it will use the exact same agreement that India got. Almost no difference. Several commentators have written that Iran was offered very similar terms, including unsafe-guarded facilities to prevent it from testing its bomb. India-Iran equal-equal per NSG. I don't think Gerard is fully correct.

That said getting the US to agree to any sort of reprocessing of its fuel is a minor miracle. The US has specifically banned all reprocessing on its own soil. This what has caused problems like Yucca mountain and all those spend fuel pools from New Jersey to Japan.
-----------------------------------------------

Not sure India can make pebble beds cheaper. China's is seriously over budget as well. And the project is still not complete. Pebbles beds are physically limited to about 500mw-600mw. This is the main reason for their uneconomic status, esp compared to the 1200 MWe giants now being built.

In any case if they make it bigger it will no longer be CHTR but some other kind of HTR.
---------------------------------------------------

WRT using Indian maal in foreign reactors we tried that with Tarapur remember. Got a PLF of 40% and pretty abysmal burn-up. Also how do you propose enriching when we don't have the very very expensive equipment. There are very specific requirements for each core design which is a closely guarded secret. Would not recommend trying desi maal in foreign 1000 MWe reactors that costs $10 Billion+. AFAIK we only get LEU.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Dec 2011 12:34

Meet calls for immediate closure of Kudankulam project

The conference urged the Central Government to provide adequate power from the central pool to Tamil Nadu, grant the requested funds and help generate power from non-nuclear sources.


No Powerplant but we want power.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby vishvak » 30 Dec 2011 14:51

Aditya_V wrote:Meet calls for immediate closure of Kudankulam project

The conference urged the Central Government to provide adequate power from the central pool to Tamil Nadu, grant the requested funds and help generate power from non-nuclear sources.


No Powerplant but we want power.

From the above link:
The participants said the Congress in the state should start working for the well-being of the people.

So how are these participants going political? Why not BJP? Why not the Left?

It looks to me that for congress party the first priority is to look better in any issue over its own allies or regional parties, with the help of protests or in case of corruption etc, overlooking national issues even.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Philip » 30 Dec 2011 15:31

The outrageous demand for immediate closure of the KKM plant is absolutely anti-national.I trust that the GOI's New Year's resolution will be to crack down on the quislings and rent- boys who are the catspaws of their foreign masters.Here's how Egypt is dealing with their problem,the destabilisation of the nation.BRites will emember how the UK's Daily Telegraph reported when the Egyptian protests began,that the CIA had spent a year earlier plotting Mubarak's downfall! Guess who's most worried about the raids?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/de ... -crackdown

US 'deeply concerned' by NGO raids in Cairo

State Department urges government to 'resolve this immediately' as US-Egyptian relations threaten to sink to new low

Egypt raids on NGOs hint at wider crackdownEven charitable work can be a sensitive matter in Arab regimes if it highlights the state's failure to provide basic services

Despite the restrictions, NGOs in Egypt – especially those dealing with human rights – were more active than in many other Arab countries in the runup to the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak and chalked up a number of successes.

Though occasional raids cause little surprise, the simultaneous raids on several organisations on Thursday are very unusual and suggest a concerted attempt to crack down on them. Some organisations try to get round the rules by registering as businesses rather than NGOs – a practice several Arab governments have recently been trying to stop.

In the poorer Arab countries, such as Egypt, there is not enough funding from local sources for most NGOs to survive, so they often depend on western donors or the UN. This gives the authorities another means to control them, by blocking transfers of money from abroad.

Dependence on outside funding also provides a further excuse to crack down by claiming they are part of a foreign plot to destabilise the country.


PS:"No plant but ,want power..",as I suggested earlier,chain the lot of protesters to the colonial era treadmill,meshed to a turbine,wiht the cassoced crowd leading them in rythmic holy chants, and they will provide the power required themselves !

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby chetak » 30 Dec 2011 16:09

Philip wrote:The outrageous demand for immediate closure of the KKM plant is absolutely anti-national.I trust that the GOI's New Year's resolution will be to crack down on the quislings and rent- boys who are the catspaws of their foreign masters.Here's how Egypt is dealing with their problem,the destabilisation of the nation.BRites will emember how the UK's Daily Telegraph reported when the Egyptian protests began,that the CIA had spent a year earlier plotting Mubarak's downfall! Guess who's most worried about the raids?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/de ... -crackdown

US 'deeply concerned' by NGO raids in Cairo

State Department urges government to 'resolve this immediately' as US-Egyptian relations threaten to sink to new low

Egypt raids on NGOs hint at wider crackdownEven charitable work can be a sensitive matter in Arab regimes if it highlights the state's failure to provide basic services

Despite the restrictions, NGOs in Egypt – especially those dealing with human rights – were more active than in many other Arab countries in the runup to the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak and chalked up a number of successes.

Though occasional raids cause little surprise, the simultaneous raids on several organisations on Thursday are very unusual and suggest a concerted attempt to crack down on them. Some organisations try to get round the rules by registering as businesses rather than NGOs – a practice several Arab governments have recently been trying to stop.

In the poorer Arab countries, such as Egypt, there is not enough funding from local sources for most NGOs to survive, so they often depend on western donors or the UN. This gives the authorities another means to control them, by blocking transfers of money from abroad.

Dependence on outside funding also provides a further excuse to crack down by claiming they are part of a foreign plot to destabilise the country.


PS:"No plant but ,want power..",as I suggested earlier,chain the lot of protesters to the colonial era treadmill,meshed to a turbine,wiht the cassoced crowd leading them in rythmic holy chants, and they will provide the power required themselves !



It's just amma flexing her muscles. The dramatis personae are mere puppets now even though they may have started off some what independently with some foreign backing.

She's just trying to arm twist MMS into unbelting some much needed shekels to fund her vision of Tamil nad a la mamta didi who managed to get her way.

It’s too bad that she is reduced to scheming in this lowly manner. She is a legitimate and potential prime ministerial candidate.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby SSridhar » 30 Dec 2011 16:29

The Man Mohan Singh deadline of two weeks is about to end and there seems no end to this pussilanimity by the centre in dealing with these protestors at Kudankulam and their leaders. The PM cannot hope Ms. Jayalalitha to do anything unless he at least partially gives her the sops she has been demanding for quite a while now. On the whole, Ms. Jayalalitha seems to have read the situation better. The existing units need to be commissioned and two more units are to come up and Ms. JJ has 5 more years to go. The Centre can do nothing without pleasing her and the Centre does not want to do that. that is the deadlock. The agitation, per se, can be broken up quickly if the Centre and the State align.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Gerard » 30 Dec 2011 18:49

Theo_Fidel wrote:Second - foreign fuel in our unsafe-guarded facility. (with or without IAEA inspectors). I have to say definite No. So far the agreement is that a facility must be either safe-guarded or unsafe-guarded. It can not be both just based on inspectors.


Campaign safeguards. Inspectors are present for duration of campaign. Safeguarded material storage casks bear IAEA seal. The fellows then leave.

See para 11(f) of the IAEA-India agreement

"any facility other than a facility identified... while producing, processing, using"

Also, see para 84(a)
"mixtures of safeguarded and unsafeguarded nuclear material"

"safeguards procedures shall cease to apply to the storage area or plant when either contains no safeguarded nuclear material"

http://www.isis-online.org/publications ... guards.pdf

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 30 Dec 2011 21:53

Gerard,

That is interesting. Definite opening there.

But there are clear limits to going that route. 81,82 &83 say that if an annual campaign involves more than 60 kg, the facility in effect becomes a safe-guarded facility, at least for that year and is subject to full random inspections.

Now the question becomes is India willing to have the IAEA crawl all over say Kalpakkam just so we can process some foreign fuel.
----------------------------------------

Added later. BTW here is the wording on the US agreement. Which is really the only agreement that counts. The US is under the impression that a new NSG kosher facility will be built for reprocessing. I have a feeling reprocessing in our existing facility might change the mood in Washington fairly quickly. Tread lightly, here be dragons...

6.
iii) With a view to implementing full civil nuclear cooperation as envisioned in the Joint Statement of the Parties of July 18, 2005, the Parties grant each other consent to reprocess or otherwise alter in form or content nuclear material transferred pursuant to this Agreement and nuclear material and by-product material used in or produced through the use of nuclear material, non-nuclear material, or equipment so transferred. To bring these rights into effect, India will establish a new national reprocessing facility dedicated to reprocessing safeguarded nuclear material under IAEA safeguards and the Parties will agree on arrangements and procedures under which such reprocessing or other alteration in form or content will take place in this new facility. Consultations on arrangements and procedures will begin within six months of a request by either Party and will be concluded within one year. The Parties agree on the application of IAEA safeguards to all facilities concerned with the above activities. These arrangements and procedures shall include provisions with respect to physical protection standards set out in Article 8, storage standards set out in Article 7, and environmental protections set forth in Article 11 of this Agreement, and such other provisions as may be agreed by the Parties. Any special fissionable material that may be separated may only be utilized in national facilities under IAEA safeguards.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 31 Dec 2011 01:28, edited 2 times in total.

chetak
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby chetak » 30 Dec 2011 23:25

SSridhar wrote:The Man Mohan Singh deadline of two weeks is about to end and there seems no end to this pussilanimity by the centre in dealing with these protestors at Kudankulam and their leaders. The PM cannot hope Ms. Jayalalitha to do anything unless he at least partially gives her the sops she has been demanding for quite a while now. On the whole, Ms. Jayalalitha seems to have read the situation better. The existing units need to be commissioned and two more units are to come up and Ms. JJ has 5 more years to go. The Centre can do nothing without pleasing her and the Centre does not want to do that. that is the deadlock. The agitation, per se, can be broken up quickly if the Centre and the State align.


The bad blood between the ladies is making the GOI take the cool path.

Amma undoubtedly has the upper hand.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby svenkat » 31 Dec 2011 09:21

I think the GOI/PM's authority has been severely dented by Ammas indifference/blackmail.This is the reality of India today.As more people become politically aware,there are multiple narratives of India.

Kudangulam has a christist/tamizh nationalist narrative too.As a democracy,we cannot bulldoze our own people.The GOI can accede to Jaya's demands setting one more bad precedent,and a particularly dangerous one at that or reach out directly to kudankulam.Jaya cannot stop that.But TN Congress is incapable of reaching out.Interesting times.

PS:The Congress had been indifferent in the past to ADMKs concerns about the Congress joining hands with DMK,when it was the ADMK which had supported the Congress through the 80s and 90s.Again the many tensions within TN Congress and ultimately our society contributed.Jaya today has no problem hobnobbing with tamizh nationalism.MGR and Jaya in her earlier avatar pandered to populism,but scrupulously kept tamizh nationalism at bay.As the centre weakens and democratisation becomes entrenched,Jaya has internalised some elements of tamizh nationalism and she is not going to fight the 'centres battle'.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby merlin » 01 Jan 2012 00:29

chetak wrote:It’s too bad that she is reduced to scheming in this lowly manner. She is a legitimate and potential prime ministerial candidate.


Give me some of what you are smoking saar! Pretty potent stuff :mrgreen:

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 01 Jan 2012 03:44

I still say Kudankulam will operate. But GOI must get down to the hard task of working for a Nuclear consensus. Consensus must include the peoples input. The old pattern of overnight 'utharavu's' from Dilli must stop. Stuff like randomly planning 2 more reactors at a Dilli tea-party must stop. No other country in the world plans nuclear energy so cavalierly. Speaks of a lack of seriousness at the very top.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Mad ... 758812.ece

Meet calls for immediate closure of Kudankulam project

A State-level conference was conducted at Kanyakumari near here on Thursday to demand the immediate closure of the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KKNPP), which, the participants said, threatened the right to life and livelihood of the people of Tamil Nadu and Kerala.

------------------------------------------------------

AMMA definitely has the upper hand and is playing GOI like a tin drum. First she knows Kudankulam will eventually start up, no matter what she says. She also knows that it is going to be a good 2 years or more based on past NPCIL dismal track record. She also knows the portion of power coming to TN will be a trifling. Power shortage is over 3000 MW. KKNPP-1 only has fuel so only 500 MW may be anticipated. Her real bet is on the coal projects in N.Chennai,Mettur & Tuticorin that will bring in 3,500 MW to the grid this year. Dedicated to TN.

Kudankulam is MMS albatross. He is the one who claims Nuke power can save India. No one else outside the establishment believes that.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Virupaksha » 01 Jan 2012 06:28

Theo,

Who were the participants in this state wide meet?
The article mentions
1) Presided by Devasahayam, he was already part of the "experts panel"
2) same goes with S.P. Udayakumar.
Devasahayam's arguments can be read below
http://www.theweekendleader.com/Causes/ ... -face.html

Udayakumar also wrote "“Nukes as a Way of Life?: Contextualizing the Nuclear Madness in South Asia, A Review Essay"
Both are from the earlier brigade of movement against nukes.

Regarding the only other guy from MDMK mentioned in the report, this is what his biography proudly says
His Achievement:

His achievement is Non-stop sermon I have no idea on what, but I expect only rubbish because no one can talk sense for such time. for 9-1/2 hours in the presence of Mr. Kalaignar. Mu.Karunanidhi in the year of 1989. Specialty is he is the only orator who is able to shine in political sphere and literary arena.

Legal Battle: He is facing 50 Cases. He has been in jail for 51 days under National Secuity Act (NSA). (I am guessing LTTE connections)

http://nanjilsampath.com/
My WAG: the recent statement is so that the agitation restarts at Jan 5-10 and attains its peak at around Jan 10-15

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Philip » 01 Jan 2012 07:57

TN is fast becoming the IIT of "professional agitators" .Add to the KKM list the likes of Vaiko,etc,.whose voice is only heard only during a controversy,never on policy.I suggest that these TN worthies take their case to the UN if they're so passionate about the evils of anything nuclear.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby chetak » 01 Jan 2012 08:21

merlin wrote:
chetak wrote:It’s too bad that she is reduced to scheming in this lowly manner. She is a legitimate and potential prime ministerial candidate.


Give me some of what you are smoking saar! Pretty potent stuff :mrgreen:


Sure thing!

Check out the following purveyors of real fine quality merchandise. Their stuff is so good that you can smoke it as well as use it for fertilizer.

Gujral and Co.

Devegowda and Sons.

MMS Enterprises.

If they can peddle it, amma can and will do better.

Amma may surprise you yet, not to mention mayavati! They have already submitted viable business plans and are awaiting partners and financing.

It's a seller's market onlee :lol:

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby svenkat » 01 Jan 2012 20:39

She also knows the portion of power coming to TN will be a trifling.


If someone like Theo saar is saying this,it shows the depth of tamizh christism.But I will not blame him.We are not living in pandyan age.This is an age of re awakened tamizh nationalism to which British and christism have contributed.OT Alert:This is not say SDRE casteism has vanished.I do not know of one marriage between dalit christians and naadar christians.I know one instance in Karur near Tiruchi,naadars started their own church to avoid mingling with dalits.

India has to grapple with these multiple narratives-dalit,naadar,christist,tamizh nationalist in one district.Phew! Poor MMS!I would not like to be in his place.And arm chair jingoes pan him as if he has the easiest job in the world.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby member_21708 » 02 Jan 2012 11:26

First indigenous nuclear submarine’s sea trials to begin off Visakhapatnam
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 335127.cms


India to achieve N-arm triad in February
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 334407.cms

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby chaanakya » 02 Jan 2012 20:45

svenkat wrote:
She also knows the portion of power coming to TN will be a trifling.


If someone like Theo saar is saying this,it shows the depth of tamizh christism.But I will not blame him.We are not living in pandyan age.This is an age of re awakened tamizh nationalism to which British and christism have contributed.OT Alert:This is not say SDRE casteism has vanished.I do not know of one marriage between dalit christians and naadar christians.I know one instance in Karur near Tiruchi,naadars started their own church to avoid mingling with dalits.

India has to grapple with these multiple narratives-dalit,naadar,christist,tamizh nationalist in one district.Phew! Poor MMS!I would not like to be in his place.And arm chair jingoes pan him as if he has the easiest job in the world.

I am amazed to see the faultlines in tamil nationalism.Two glass system is indicative of this.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby negi » 02 Jan 2012 21:20

The making of a nuclear scientist
--ALOYSIUS XAVIER LOPEZ

As I have said earlier this is one area where I do not have much to whine against the GOI.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Bade » 02 Jan 2012 21:40

The BARC training school was the fountainhead used by all research institutes of repute to absorb staff, including places like tifr. All 60+ year old scientists came out of this training school, I have even met astronomers who went to the barc training school following their MSc degree. Nowadays, each institute has their own tailor made PhD programs, the latest being the one by ISRO.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby shiv » 02 Jan 2012 21:56

Theo_Fidel wrote:AMMA definitely has the upper hand and is playing GOI like a tin drum. First she knows Kudankulam will eventually start up, no matter what she says.


Amma needs Kudankulam to start with a different government at the centre, or for this government to be pliable. This government has enriched her political opponents by several tens of thousands of crores and only 2 have been caught. The other 98 are free and even Raja and Kani will be out soon.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby sum » 04 Jan 2012 18:46

Since the below is a direct quote from the highest official of India's N-establishment, it just confirms what postor, Gakakkad-ji, has been saying from day-1 about the weapons program being the target at K:

Protesters keen on classified info, not N-safety

The anti-nuclear protesters at Kudankulam appear to be interested more in accessing classified government information rather than nuclear safety, though they cite safety as the reason behind their agitation.

The protesters are asking for copies of the inter-governmental agreements between
India and Russia as well as drawings and design details of the 1,000 MW Russian nuclear plant, which is proprietory information and cannot be shared,
” Srikumar Banerjee, chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) said on the sidelines of the Indian Science Congress here.

Banerjee also foresaw Kudankulam as an industrial hub like Tarapur.

The AEC chairman said while the department of atomic energy gave paramount importance to nuclear safety and was open to discussions and debate on safety issues, there were certain areas, which should remain purely within the government and could not be shared.

In fact, the 15-member expert group set up by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh also expressed their inability when the agitators asked for the inter-governmental agreements, issues related to India’s position in the Nuclear Safety Group, setting up of a possible weapon facility at Kudankulam, liability issues of India and Russia and KKNPP’s impact on India’s bilateral relations with other countries.

While the expert group spoke to the local and state government representatives on the safety of Kudankulam nuclear power plant and possible health consequences, if there are any, the agitators seem to be looking for more classified information, he said.

As blatant as it gets.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 04 Jan 2012 20:31

This is old hat and an old weak CT. Sad day when scientists resort to CT's.

Honestly the AEC is at its wits end and flailing about at this point. Demonizing is not going to help these scientists. GOI should put it out of its misery and issue a gag order. This is part of reform that is vital for any national consensus. Energy and Bomb programs should be permanently separated. Security for our bomb will be far far better. Civil scientist should not be discussing our bomb program without clearance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile...

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ar-arsenal

India and Pakistan on Sunday exchanged the list of nuclear installations and facilities covered under the two-decade pact called Agreement on the Prohibition of Attack against Nuclear Installations between India and Pakistan through diplomatic channels.


---------------------------------------------------------

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 347583.cms

DRDO builds defence against dirty bombs

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps the AEC could focus on this. A provide us a realistic price on what Nuclear power will cost us.

http://www.livemint.com/2011/12/2823040 ... l?atype=tp

India unlikely to follow new Japan N-power pricing model

A government body in Japan has said in a recent reportthat the cost of producing nuclear power in that country is now about 50% more than in 2004.

The added cost has resulted from including “the price of dealing with nuclear accidents and policy costs related tothe government’s budget”, it said.

While there was no official comment from India’s nuclear establishment, a senior official, who didn’t want to be identified, said the country was unlikely to adopt the method—of incorporating the risk of nuclear plants into power generation costs.

PratikDas
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby PratikDas » 06 Jan 2012 02:39

How is it a CT when it actually happened?

I can think of many who need gag orders, but none in the AEC.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby shyamd » 06 Jan 2012 02:43

BARC Head kicked off efforts to acquire uranium assets abroad. You might hear somthing in the news in the near future.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jan 2012 19:47

Green Light for Protest in Kalpakkam
The Madras High Court has directed the Mamallapuram DSP to grant permission to K Duraisamy, ward member of Sathurangapattinam panchayat, to stage a day’s protest for safety measures to be implemented to protect local residents from the ill-effects of Kalpakkam Thermal Power Plant. Justice Vinod K Sharma, who gave the direction on Thursday while disposing of a writ petition from Duraisamy, said that the place must be specified by the DSP and he should ensure that no law and order problem was created.

Originally, the petitioner, also an office-bearer of Peoples Movement for Nuclear Safety, moved the local inspector to grant permission to stage the protest near Poigaikarai Rountana in Sathurangapattinam on December 12. However, the inspector refused permission.


There was reference to likely protests at Kalpakkam about a month back and that is coming true. It is a well-planned strategy. If strong action is not taken, this is how we will end up with.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 07 Jan 2012 00:09

SSridhar wrote:There was reference to likely protests at Kalpakkam about a month back and that is coming true. It is a well-planned strategy. If strong action is not taken, this is how we will end up with.


I'm curious to know what kind of 'strong action' is required and legally permitted against a democratic protest, even if 'pre-planned' (which is what I suspect you really meant) and thought through. This has been advocated by you and several other posters here. The 'Bomb' is always brought up as a convenient cover but note the protest is against Nuclear thermal power. I've said this before, but it is unfortunate that a Moderator holds such apparently anti-democratic views. And permits such views to be propagated here against citizens of India. I have a feeling you don't intend it that way, say a lathi charge against family members of folks on this board, but that is how it comes across.

BTW. Note that none of the wild CT's of illegal activity from Sri-Lankan gold smuggling to LTTE sympathy have panned out so far.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile elsewhere.....

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... um/461035/

Areva is now engaged in talks with the government-owned NPC for the supply of two EPRs of 1,650 Mw each for proposed 9,900-Mw project along the Arabian Sea in Rajapur Tehsil of Ratnagiri district. The Paris-based company offers energy at competitive rates, and has pegged the lifetime of its EPR plant at 60 years.


Further, efforts were being made to leverage NPC’s expertise on procurement for the domestic programme from Indian industrialists. NPC would directly manage much of the work to be done on the secondary parts of the plant. This would save it money and also create new area of expertise that can help it on the production of future plants.

NPC says the EPRs are of the evolutionary design. “The reactors have been evolved from the N4 and KONVOI reactors in France and Germany. The current proven versions of these reactors have the capacity of up to 1,500 Mw,” according to NPC executive director Shashikant Dharne. The EPR, he adds, combines the salient features to strengthen the safety to levels that would make it withstand the natural and human induced hazards.


The Ratnagiri District Jagruk Manch has a different view. It president, Vivek Bhinde, says the EPR technology has not yet been proven anywhere in the world. “Areva is doing experiment in India. If they are claiming that the cost will be competitive, then the company is misguiding the people of the country,” he claims.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby PratikDas » 07 Jan 2012 01:44

“The protesters are asking for copies of the inter-governmental agreements between
India and Russia as well as drawings and design details of the 1,000 MW Russian nuclear plant, which is proprietory information and cannot be shared,” Srikumar Banerjee, chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) said on the sidelines of the Indian Science Congress here.


This is no CT on the AEC's part. This is also no business of any civilian, not matter how much the supposedly downtrodden try to sugar coat things. Motives must be investigated.

I have noticed that the self-assumed freedom warriors have a LOT of trouble answering this question.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 07 Jan 2012 01:49

PratikDas wrote:This is also no business of any civilian,


You are wrong. We don't live in Soviet Russia. Nuclear needs to get over its pompous self importance. There will be questions asked. And much harsher questions are coming.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby svinayak » 07 Jan 2012 02:09

There are insitutions and elected govt which has a mandate which is authorized to check all these agreement.
Somebody in the street canned handle national security.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Philip » 07 Jan 2012 03:19

Wow! "harsher questions are coming"! From whom,these self-appointed nuclear experts who are nothing but lickspittles for the foreign masters? If the attempts to destroy the KKM project ,whose delays are now costing the nation "4 crores" per day,continue for much longer,I forsee "harsher measures" taken against the quislings and rent-boys misleading and brainwashing the local population.These worthies are behaving as if KKM is a foreign state ,in exactly the arrogant manner as the Eelamists treated Jaffna and the N-East of Lanka.As we all well know they came a cropper,just as this noxious protest leadership will. As for more news of the LTTE's gold smuggling,noticed how the number of biryani packets being served have reduced ?

Here is a very apt analysis in simple terms of the issue.

Even in the areas near Koodankulam, there are many pro nuclear groups , who largely belong to Hindu community and it looks that the issue may be viewed
on communal lines in the near future.


http://www.eai.in/club/scrap/i/13616

ANTI NUCLEAR AGITATION - A CASE STUDY IN INDIA
By nsvenkat on 2 days ago in Nuclear Energy

Koodankulam nuclear power project in India :

For the last three months, the commissioning of the Koodankulam nuclear power plant of capacity 1000MW with Russian collaboration in southern India could not be carried out due to agitation by the local people , demanding that nuclear plant should be scrapped. This is an interesting case study as to how Koodankulam nuclear plant is being halted , whereas the nuclear protestors in other parts of the world have not been able to do so in their respective regions.

Profile of the protestors in Koodankulam :

Koodankulam is a small rural area in the southern tip of India , largely inhabited by fishermen and most of them belonging to the Christian community.

Most of the protestors except perhaps the leaders of the movement belong to lower income group who do not know as to where their next meal would come from. The protestors include aged people some of whom live in orphanages and school children in the age group of 10 to 15. Certainly, these protestors cannot have the capacity to grasp the intricacies of the safety issues relating to installation and operation of nuclear power plants. They are really innocent people who would readily believe if someone would tell them that the women in the locality would become barren if the nuclear plant were to be commissioned.

Who lead the protest movement ?:

The local churches are playing a leading role in motivating the people to involve themselves in the protest and the priests in the church have done it openly and have not concealed their objections to the nuclear plant. It is repeatedly reported in the media that even during the mass in the churches, the local people have been advised to participate in the protest.

There are other leaders involved in the protest movement , who seem to be highly motivated and determined people with good international connections. They manage the media very well and constantly ensure that their voices are heard. Some of them have even attended the meetings organized by the pro nuclear group and disrupted the proceedings. All these matters have been widely reported in the media.

The unanswered questions :

Many people wonder as to how the protestors are able to sustain the movement for such a long time, particularly since large number of poor people are involved, who cannot afford to go without working even for a day to earn their income for survival. These poor people have been participating in the protest from dawn to dusk for several days .

Obviously, they have to be fed every day and also given transport facilities for travelling to the protest site from their dwellings which are several kilometers away in many cases. The question arises as to who finance the protestors.

The minister in the Government of India has openly said in the meetings that the protestors have been getting funds from abroad and Government of India says that it is investigating into their source of funds. The question is as to who would fund them and why should they fund them. These are all unanswered questions as on date leading to several speculations.

The public support ?:

While the local people have been protesting , it is not as if the protests have been widespread. There are large number of people in the province of Tamil Nadu ,
(with population of around 70 million ) where Koodankulam site is located, who demand that the Koodankulam project should be immediately commissioned , since the province is now facing acute power shortage, leading to closure of several industrial units.

Even in the areas near Koodankulam, there are many pro nuclear groups , who largely belong to Hindu community and it looks that the issue may be viewed
on communal lines in the near future.

How are the protestors successful till date ?:

India is having a federal system of administration with a government at the Centre and separate government in each province. The Koodankulam nuclear plant is being implemented by the Central government and the provincial government says that this project should not be commissioned , in view of the protest from the local people and until such time that the local people would be convinced.

Clearly, there is vote bank politics in this issue where the provincial government does not want to antagonise the local people, to ensure that it would not lose their votes in the elections. Some sections of the people demand that the protestors should be forcibly removed but the provincial government does not want to take this calculated risk and the central government cannot act without support of the provincial government.

The senior nuclear scientists in India with considerable reputation have been explaining about the safety standards of the Koodankulam nuclear plant and Government of India also constituted an expert committee to look into the matter and discuss with the protestors. Even the former President of India
Dr.A.P.J Abdul Kalam who is a renowned scientist himself and a humanist with great popularity amongst the people and who hails from a place near Koodankulam area , visited the plant and explained to the local people about his satisfaction with regard to safety aspects. But, the protestors do not listen and are repeating the same questions and doubts.

In any case, the local people who protest in Koodankulam are not those who analyse the safety issues in Koodankulam and protest but are carried away blindly by the skillful campaign of their leaders, who appear to be sworn enemy of nuclear power.


PS:This echoes the press reports of the entire population of the main fishing village supporting the agits as being Christian,actively supported by the Church.A small % are Hindus,about 50,earlier Christians,who left after some internal dispute.It is abundantly clear that the Church is playing an insidious and dangerous game here which may explode into communal violence,s virtually the entire state which is reeling from massive power shortages want KKM commissioned.Like Biblical miracles,the anti-KKM protesters have conjured up enough funds to take their protests to various parts of the state (funded we are told by poor fisherfolk who contribute on a daily basis!!!) and use goonda like tactics to disrupt seminars and meetings where eminent N-scientists like Dr. MR Srinivasan particiated.The clear aim of the anti-N goondas is to stifle the mouths of the eminent N-scientists,just like the Nazis and Eelamists in Lanka,using strong-arm and loud-mouth tactics.These anti-nationals must realise that they are playing with fire and are challenging the entire Indian state.The anti-KKM agits are not merely a local TN issue,but a conspiracy against the interests of the entire nation.Once more the report on the "foreign hand" behind the protests.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ind ... 726146.ece

New Delhi, Dec 18:
Suspecting foreign hand behind protests against Kudankulam nuclear plant, the Government has launched a probe into functioning of six NGOs in Tamil Nadu and a notice has been issued to them seeking explanation of utilisation of funds received from abroad.

Racing against time to operationalise the nuclear plant built with Russian help at the cost of around Rs 14,000 crore, the Government is also undertaking an aggressive campaign to allay fears of the locals over the project.

The Government sources said there are suspicions that the protests are being fuelled from outside the country and an investigation by the IB has been initiated to look into it.

“Money has been flowing into the protests. We have been inquiring this aspect for some time now,” a source told PTI.

The Home Ministry has sent notices to six NGOs, based in Tuticorin, asking them to explain the utilisation of the funds received under Foreign Contribution (Regulation) Act, the source said without identifying these NGOs.

“Without money, how can they sustain the agitation for 100 days?” the source asked.


.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby PratikDas » 07 Jan 2012 04:44

Theo_Fidel wrote:
PratikDas wrote:This is also no business of any civilian,


You are wrong. We don't live in Soviet Russia. Nuclear needs to get over its pompous self importance. There will be questions asked. And much harsher questions are coming.

Those questions can get shoved.

I'll repeat that in case you didn't read that properly. Those questions can get shoved.

When I don't know a rocket from a mortar, I realise I ought to keep shut when it comes to the Cold Start doctrine.

Similarly, if you have no qualifications when it comes to nuclear technology, you ought to keep shut too and listen to those who do.

By your ridiculous analogy, my doctor is self important because he knows medicine while I don't and I respect him for it, and my lawyer is self important because he knows the law while I don't and I respect him for it. If so, then I have no problem with AEC being self important because they understand nuclear science while I don't and I respect them for it.

I've been to university for 8 years and I have a PhD, but I haven't forgotten where to pull my head in.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 07 Jan 2012 05:48

PratikDas wrote:my doctor is self important because he knows medicine while I don't and I respect him for it,...


False analogy. And very simplistic. I'm a professional too, in a life/death decision profession and I'm strictly regulated by the state. Clients tell me what to do and what not to do all the time. You don't answer questions, you lose the job and get kicked out. BTW do you even have a copy of said questions. Yup! Its classified.

Again get over pomposity.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby PratikDas » 07 Jan 2012 09:37

How is it a false analogy? Do you doubt the technical qualifications of the experts in the AEC?

Yes or no?

I trust the qualifications of the AEC, my doctor, and my lawyer.

I do know an exact list of questions was posted, by gakkakad I believe, and a number of questions were well beyond the concerns of any civilian.

I'd like to know when was the last time any civilian welcomed or 'ordered' a sewage treatment plant or landfill in his neighbourhood? I'm willing to bet that every community in the history of urban development would have protested a landfill or sewage treatment plant. Tough. You need both and you're going to get it.

I'm also willing to bet that the regulations in your profession weren't determined by the supposedly downtrodden Or the 'minorities' Or even public protests. The regulations would've been compiled by experts and would've benefitted from past experience. AEC guarantees that.

As for pomposity, coming from you it is a joke.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby chetak » 07 Jan 2012 12:08

Theo_Fidel wrote:
PratikDas wrote:This is also no business of any civilian,


You are wrong. We don't live in Soviet Russia. Nuclear needs to get over its pompous self importance. There will be questions asked. And much harsher questions are coming.



There are matters of state and national security.

Not possible for some extraneously and religiously motivated rabble rousers and "fishermen" to adjudicate, beyond a point.

There are limits to the interests permitted to local groups. Such groups can easily bought off and supported as has been seen in this very specific case.

It is only being sustained for this long because amma is hoping to leverage this to do a mamta bannerjee on the GOI for central funds. If amma pulls the political plug, the fishermen will have to catch fish again and the others can go back to diddling little boys or whatever floats their boat.

With the GOI stance hardening the window of opportunity for amma is closing quickly.

The GOI has began to take on mamta and amma is smarter because she will not like to lose public goodwill and foreign investor confidence running up to the elections. She has national ambitions unlike mamta.


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