India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

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ankitash
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby ankitash » 06 Dec 2011 00:53

Theo_Fidel wrote:
So $1,000,000/8000 grams = $125 per gram.
Present price of Gold 1 gram = $55 per gram.

So we are taking some thing more expensive than gold burning it in a reactor one time and calling it our energy program.


:eek:

Does burning gold produce a huge amount of energy ?!! What exactly are you trying to compare ?

Image

Nuclear energy is probably the safest, cheapest and cleanest means to generate power on a large scale

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby ramdas » 06 Dec 2011 03:33

TF,

You have still not addressed the aspect of protestors planning to target our strategic program: why the slogans against Nuke weapons and why the targeting of Kalpakkam PFBR ?

Once a precedent is set in rolling back Kudankulam, rolling back PFBR , reprocessing and other strategic facilities is the next target of the likes of Udayakumar. This is pure subversion of national interests.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby amit » 06 Dec 2011 06:10

chaanakya wrote:
amit wrote:Aha I see the discussion is back to solar energy. :-)

That can be said by someone who thinks renewables is only Solar and that too specifically SPV.


So the response is to a peripheral point in my post while the main point, that is India simply does not have sufficient land for largescale commercially viable solar farms - even with the use of fallow or non agricultural land - is ignored.

But then why am I surprised?

Ps: I'm impressed by the deep discussion going on - with tremendous data points - about other renewables like wind, tide geo-thermal etc. Only missing is some inputs about gobar gas as a renewable.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby amit » 06 Dec 2011 06:17

ramdas wrote:TF,

You have still not addressed the aspect of protestors planning to target our strategic program: why the slogans against Nuke weapons and why the targeting of Kalpakkam PFBR ?

Once a precedent is set in rolling back Kudankulam, rolling back PFBR , reprocessing and other strategic facilities is the next target of the likes of Udayakumar. This is pure subversion of national interests.


+100

Once the Genie was let out of the bottle, that is making misinformed protests against nuke plants mainstream with political legitimacy, it was only a matter of time before these movements were hijacked for use against the strategic program. That's the real target, not some nuke plant at KNPP or Jaitapur.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby shiv » 06 Dec 2011 06:52

Theo_Fidel wrote:Another data point.

Under the present cycle a fuel rod contains about 200 kg of enriched Uranium and costs ~ $1 Million. Of that 200 kg only 8 kg is U-235 and is fissile though some very limited burn up of U-238 does occur.

So $1,000,000/8000 grams = $125 per gram.
Present price of Gold 1 gram = $55 per gram.

So we are taking some thing more expensive than gold burning it in a reactor one time and calling it our energy program.


Rhetorical arguments are not only fun, but they are a self goal to be chewed up and spat out.

In India Petrol costs Rs 75 a litre but clean bottled water just Rs. 12. We are taking something that is way more expensive than water and burning it in the name of energy no? But water doesn't burn. Neither does Gold for that matter. When you send a few protestors who wear Uranium ornaments and drink petrol I will be inclined to believe what I see as a phenomenally stupid argument.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Dec 2011 09:49

Meanwhile, some progress...

http://dailypioneer.com/nation/25708-sc ... lants.html
At the peak of public protest over unsafe nuclear plants in the country, be it Kudankulam or Jaitapur, the Supreme Court has sought a public debate to set up an independent regulator till the time Parliament could bring a law to secure nuclear plants.

Faced with a PIL filed by NGO Common Cause which questioned the safety of nuclear plants, the bench headed by Chief Justice SH Kapadia was initially reluctant to interfere in a matter squarely covered by a Bill pending in Parliament. But later it got convinced that the matter has serious repercussions on Article 21 of Constitution (right to life) and sought for a public debate on the issue.

“We are not experts to suggest a mechanism of our own. You have a public debate and give us suggestions on the possible model of regulator that can address these concerns. We want a solution till Parliament makes a law,” said the bench, also comprising Justices AK Pattnaik and Swatanter Kumar.


But advocate Prashant Bhushan, who appeared for the petitioner NGO comprising eminent scientists and academicians, pointed out how the reactors meant for purchase by India were declared unsafe by regulatory authorities in the UK, USA and France. Moreover, he pointed out the cap placed on damages resulting from a nuclear tragedy under the Nuclear Liability Act, which made the present law in this field totally unprepared to a clicking “time bomb” that could explode any moment.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby chaanakya » 06 Dec 2011 10:04

chaanakya wrote:
amit wrote:Aha I see the discussion is back to solar energy. :-)

That can be said by someone who thinks renewables is only Solar and that too specifically SPV.

amit wrote:So the response is to a peripheral point in my post while the main point, that is India simply does not have sufficient land for largescale commercially viable solar farms - even with the use of fallow or non agricultural land - is ignored.
.

Your point was peripheral so why do you get surprised? RE includes Hydro as well that you forgot to mention. India already has large % as Renewables in overall energy mix about 40%. And I have given Hydro generation for Oct 2011. So if you think that only Solar SPV would be considered Renewable , you are sadly wrong. Use of each category of RE is as per requirement and needs of the consumers. Your main point was a minor point not meriting even glance as it shows ignorance of RE.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby member_20317 » 06 Dec 2011 10:30

amit wrote:So the response is to a peripheral point in my post while the main point, that is India simply does not have sufficient land for largescale commercially viable solar farms - even with the use of fallow or non agricultural land - is ignored.

But then why am I surprised?

Ps: I'm impressed by the deep discussion going on - with tremendous data points - about other renewables like wind, tide geo-thermal etc. Only missing is some inputs about gobar gas as a renewable.


From The Ministry site:

Initiatives of Gujarat for implementation of the Solar Power Projects
Solar radiation : 5.5 to 6.00 kWh/sq.m./day with 330 sunny days / year
Land : 14.40 Million Acres of uniquely positioned waste land in area of high solar radiation


Crystalline Silicone (c-si) (assumed as 40 mw per sqkm) 14.4*1000000*0.004046*40 = 2330496
Thin Film (a-si) (assumed as 20 mw per sqkm) 14.4*1000000*0.004046*20 = 1165248


I dont think it is about land even though on count of land acquired itself teh SPV would loose against Nuke.

The point is amit you would be happy to marry and live with a water buffalo if the alternative is living with a Reactor-bum


This is more about engineering vs 2012 with Fukushima being the city the got fire bombing before the 'actual' floods.

The floods came the floods went but Eir, Bir & Phate just didnt notice.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Sanatanan » 06 Dec 2011 14:35

From Deccan Herald Chronicle, 5 Dec, 2011:
Koodankulam: Centre sees silver lining

For the many hoping for improvement in the dismal power scene in Tamil Nadu, there is now light at the end of a long tunnel of resistance against the Koodankulam nuclear power plant near here.

The crowd under the protest-shamiana at Idinthakarai, close to the plant, is thinning.

Local fishermen and women’s groups have been providing the numbers for the relay protest fasts at Idinthakarai. While the fishermen fear the plant would destroy marine life, the women were brainwashed into believing that nuclear radiation would render them barren and their race extinct.

“On the 48th day of the relay fast today (Sunday), the turnout was just 150. At one time, we saw as many as 7,000 come in to squat along with their children. This senseless protest is fizzling out, at last,” gushed a senior official who has been monitoring the agitation.

The Vijayapathi panchayat, which includes Idinthakarai, had only a couple of days ago passed a resolution demanding that the plant be closed. However, the resistance against the plant is said to be thinning.

“The Catholic priests involved in this agitation are now getting ready for Christmas. The fishermen cannot afford to sit in strike because this is the peak fishing season. For the rest of the public, this is the season of festivals and marriages,” said another official, pointing out that on the other side of the hot fence, industry groups have been agitating for early resumption of work at the plant so that their power problems could be resolved.

Tamil Nadu is to get 925 MW from the 2,000 MW of power expected to be generated by the first two reactors of the Koodankulam plant, with two more reactors on the drawing board.


Edit: Name of the news paper corrected in the first line. The URL is OK.
Last edited by Sanatanan on 06 Dec 2011 20:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby SSridhar » 06 Dec 2011 17:18

Sanatanan wrote:From Deccan Herald, 5 Dec, 2011:
Koodankulam: Centre sees silver lining

. . . the women were brainwashed into believing that nuclear radiation would render them barren and their race extinct.

Oh, the leaders of the agitation are as good as the Taliban, then ! Wasn't it the Taliban who were misleading the Pakhtuns in similar terms about polio vaccination ?

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Prabu » 06 Dec 2011 18:56

SSridhar wrote:From Deccan Herald, 5 Dec, 2011:
Koodankulam: Centre sees silver lining

. . . the women were brainwashed into believing that nuclear radiation would render them barren and their race extinct.


At last, change for the Good ! Let us welcome :)

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Kanson » 06 Dec 2011 19:34

amit wrote:
ramdas wrote:TF,

You have still not addressed the aspect of protestors planning to target our strategic program: why the slogans against Nuke weapons and why the targeting of Kalpakkam PFBR ?

Once a precedent is set in rolling back Kudankulam, rolling back PFBR , reprocessing and other strategic facilities is the next target of the likes of Udayakumar. This is pure subversion of national interests.


+100

Once the Genie was let out of the bottle, that is making misinformed protests against nuke plants mainstream with political legitimacy, it was only a matter of time before these movements were hijacked for use against the strategic program. That's the real target, not some nuke plant at KNPP or Jaitapur.


And I still don't understand the need for bringing Pak & China angle in one of the questions raised by these protesters. Atleast any explanation offered anywhere?!

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby gakakkad » 06 Dec 2011 19:46

>>And I still don't understand the need for bringing Pak & China angle in one of the questions raised by these protesters. Atleast any explanation offered anywhere?!

BARC/NPCIL officials believe that China is behind the protest .

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby vishvak » 06 Dec 2011 20:05

Costs of delay - about 2,653 crore. link from firstpost.com

The completion cost is now expected to be Rs 15,824 crore and the project is expected to be completed in 2012-13

The side-effects already showing other than time overruns.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 06 Dec 2011 20:10

Yup! Everyone is a Paki now. Kudankulam agitators are now the Taliban based on some DDM report that is always wildly inaccurate and sensationalist in every other case and every other thread. By that definition you lot are the WKK or is it the RAPE. I forget which after all there is no difference. I hope you guys are happy with this equal-equal. In a 'India' nuclear news thread no less. Truly too much time in filthy places.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

ravi_g,

thanx for the calc.

Initiatives of Gujarat for implementation of the Solar Power Projects
Solar radiation : 5.5 to 6.00 kWh/sq.m./day with 330 sunny days / year
Land : 14.40 Million Acres of uniquely positioned waste land in area of high solar radiation

Crystalline Silicone (c-si) (assumed as 40 mw per sqkm) 14.4*1000000*0.004046*40 = 2330496
Thin Film (a-si) (assumed as 20 mw per sqkm) 14.4*1000000*0.004046*20 = 1165248

I don't think it is about land even though on count of land acquired itself teh SPV would loose against Nuke.


CS ~ 2.33 Million MW
TF ~ 1.16 Million MW

For a single state.

Kudankulam total acquired land of various types over the years ~ 4,800 acres or so. Some of it is separate from main exclusion zone.

So for CS 4.8*1000*0.004046*40 = 846.68 MW. Half that for Thin Film. Not too dissimilar capacity though PLF is much lower. If one included wind potential which is roughly another 1 MW per 50 acre this would add another 100 MW of capacity.

Keep in mind that Kudankulam is on the sea shore so gets away with kicking out fishermen without counting that as land acquisition. A land locked power station would probably need some more land. Don't forget the economic exclusion zone that extends much further.

One other point. KKNPP land will be off limits permanently. Even after the plant is done there is a lengthy cooling off period. We will not be able to use that land at all in our lifetimes. Solar & Wind coexist just fine with all other uses and users. Wind in particular barely disturbs existing economic activity. Infact the farmers could continue to live on the land if they so chose. They could own the land and farm the sun maintaining the panels, etc with few issues. In fact there are experiments on growing some specific crops in the shaded area.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby vishvak » 06 Dec 2011 20:35

Theo_Fidel wrote:based on some DDM report that is always wildly inaccurate and sensationalist in every other case and every other thread. By that definition you lot are the WKK or is it the RAPE. I forget which after all there is no difference.

In fact, DDM indeed has given open platform to speculations, such as nuclear energy is history, etc. DDM still is DDM. On the other side, it has given rare footage to scientists who are facing civilians not scientists. The views discussed here against protests hardly find any mention in DDM.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Kudankulam total acquired land of various types over the years ~ 4,800 acres or so. Some of it is separate from main exclusion zone.

So for CS 4.8*1000*0.004046*40 = 846.68 MW. Half that for Thin Film. Not too dissimilar capacity though PLF is much lower. If one included wind potential which is roughly another 1 MW per 50 acre this would add another 100 MW of capacity.

Keep in mind that Kudankulam is on the sea shore so gets away with kicking out fishermen without counting that as land acquisition. A land locked power station would probably need some more land. Don't forget the economic exclusion zone that extends much further.

Acquisition of land, exclusive zone etc. are not plant-specific, in fact the zone does not prohibit fishing entire sea. This can not be compared with farm-land acquisitions as it is.

Solar & Wind coexist just fine with all other uses and users. Wind in particular barely disturbs existing economic activity. Infact the farmers could continue to live on the land if they so chose. They could own the land and farm the sun maintaining the panels, etc with few issues. In fact there are experiments on growing some specific crops in the shaded area.
Can wind and solar produce with guarantee the same amount of power? By power I mean here the kind that would add to grids for better availability in energy intensive requirements such as national grid, trains, industries, etc.? Is there a guarantee that all throughout forever, dear Mother Nature will satisfy calculations of childish( childish wrt the Mother Goddess) humans? If tomorrow wind blows in another direction or changes course what will happen to these arguments?

Replied with my 2 paise thoughts.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby JE Menon » 06 Dec 2011 20:51

This thing at Koodamkulam was a case of an external player showing its hands too early. Probably miscalculated, thinking we wouldn't know exactly how to handle it, wouldn't be able to deal with the political ramifications at state/national level (well researched by them no doubt, but poorly interpreted), and will damage a competitor who is emerging in capability and strength in various fields (I'm talking of the state of Tamil Nadu). Jaya is nobody's fool.

Still, it is early days. Much is speculation. Time will bring clarity. Right now, I believe we are collecting the twos, threes and fours and will put them together eventually to get to the total.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby member_20317 » 06 Dec 2011 22:15

Theo_Fidel wrote:Yup! Everyone is a Paki now. Kudankulam agitators are now the Taliban based on some
-------------------------------------------------------------------
ravi_g,

thanx for the calc.
.
.
.
For a single state.
.
.
.
Kudankulam total acquired land of various types over the years ~ 4,800 acres or so. Some of it is separate from main exclusion zone.



Sorry Theo but my post was mainly against your position.

The calc was just to help out some other member who was working under the assumption that land is scarce for SPV projects and doesnt say anything more then that.

As I see it you have only been able to prove that SPV in basement is better then Yellocake in basement. A position well understood by all, hence people who dont have access to grid are taking to.

Also the larger the area occupiable implies more of Khamba And Tar Infrastructure (KATI) ;). Reactor is a one to many queue and SPV is a many to many queue. You have only shifted the cost from the generation to distribution. Just take a look at the post above by Ankitash. Why else do you think the Kudankulam plant is aiming for Rs. 2.5 per unit while SPVs are asking for 8+.

Also why are you so hell bent on having only the SPV in Kudankulam. In fact within the Sterlized and Exclusion Zone itself you can have your SPV in addition to the Reactor. Its just that Neta-gan want Haryali instead of more electricity generation so they get green spaces there.

Also why do you have to have a comparison based on Land occupancy. Russians have been offering floating Reactors. Also I dont see such a big challenge in taking the SPV also off shore. They already have Windpower offshore. I am sure the smart Engineers can figure out a way to have a floating KATI also.

See Theo while I love your love for things solar and feel indebted to you for forcing me to keep track of things solar but your logic is not working out bhaijaan. There is on the net even a comparison which shows Cost per kwh to produce at Nuke 0.26USD and Solar Tower=0.05USD and SPV+Solar Tower=0.04USD. But they won't explain why the comparative user charges are the way actually are.


Rigth now SPV is searching for Grid Parity not searching to be the cheapest. Nobody would say no to SPV if it just gives grid parity.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Sanku » 06 Dec 2011 23:29

Did some one say fly-ash

http://www.powermin.nic.in/generation/p ... gement.pdf

http://www.ntpc.co.in/index.php?option= ... 94&lang=en

Lot of work in carbon sequestering etc.

Clean coal is coming, it is already here partially and needs to be stepped up on. THAT is the solution of pollution and not Nuclear in any case, since for better or for worse that is going to compose of similar % of power generation as of now.

Nuclear issues have to be seen and sorted out on their own merits, trying to push it as a glorious solution which will sort out everything is not the way to go. IMVHO.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Sanku » 07 Dec 2011 00:17

nukavarapu wrote:^^^ Fly-ash is just one of the pollutants and not the only pollutant. I guess they are also researching on how to find a solution to mitigate release of Arsenic, Mercury, Lead, Dioxin, Hydrogen Chloride etc. For your kind information, it has been the single largest pollutant in the entire history of industralization and the single largest source of pollution compared to anything and everything else, even if they are put together. So maybe your well informed sources are also planning to create a super Coal which burns and gives out water and oxygen, right?


1) Dont get jumpy in discussions, there is nothing here to take personally.

2) Since you (or some one else?) mentioned fly-ash I posted links on clean coal, reuse of fly-ash post precipitation etc. Now that you raise "other" issues, I will remark on them later (for the record they are also being looked at).

3) Coal is not going away period, the amount of nuclear energy best case is not going to be significant, period. That is the reality. Thus offering Nuclear as solution to pollution does not work. Its impact is insignificant. Especially if you consider "life-cycle" pollution metrics, instead of merely operating emissions.

4) Apart from the merits of protesters at KK aside, the fact remains that the "Kalam plan" clearly and unequivocal accepts and call for actions on improvements in processes and systems in the Nuclear power generation in Indian space.

People can take a leaf out of the "Kalam plan" and instead of trying to make partial statements, look at the picture holistically.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 07 Dec 2011 01:04

R,

I merely used your calc and took it a step further that is all.

Not a unquestioning fan of Solar myself despite my posts. It is just a way of pointing out that the energy market is changing. Nuclear is getting more and more expensive while PV is dropping dramatically in price. This has implications for why nuclear is being pushed on us so heavily right now. We have some limited options and should avoid getting panicked. Despite the hardsell yellow cake won't even get us out of the basement. Need to explore more scalable options. Right now that is Solar/some wind or as a stop gap coal & gas.

That is what your calc demonstrated. Scale. I get it that we don't like intermitent power. But bhailog we don't have a choice only. Chaanakya has posted how SPV is already peak power parity. It will soon be the cheapest option, not dissimilar to how LCD technology, once so super duper expensive now goes for pennies on the square foot. The big market players continue to scale up and squeeze efficiency out. So what do we do with those 60 year nukes then.

Yes the area around Kudankulam Exclusion could be filled with SPV. This is a strength of SPV not Nuclear. And the farmers have been kicked out already remember. But try sellling that to the DAE. They will have all kinds of objections. Remember the economic exclusion zone. I've heard of wind turbines being asked to shut down as start up gets closer.

WRT the net you get what you paid for the data. I think that is a levelized cost. Over many years. SPV price stays constant for 25 years. So $140 per MW today will be $140 per MW in 2036. Inflation don't matter per contract. No other power source can say this. There are wind turbines in the Midwest selling electricity at $34 per MW per contract set in 2000. They will continue at that price for 15 more years. This when whole sale electricity price now exceeds $90 per MW due to inflation and fuel surcharges.

At that sort of fixed price advantage who do you think gets/should get first priority to produce.
--------------------------------

Meanwhile.....

Image

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby chaanakya » 07 Dec 2011 22:43

Sanku wrote:Did some one say fly-ash

http://www.powermin.nic.in/generation/p ... gement.pdf

http://www.ntpc.co.in/index.php?option= ... 94&lang=en

Lot of work in carbon sequestering etc.

Clean coal is coming, it is already here partially and needs to be stepped up on. THAT is the solution of pollution and not Nuclear in any case, since for better or for worse that is going to compose of similar % of power generation as of now.

Nuclear issues have to be seen and sorted out on their own merits,
trying to push it as a glorious solution which will sort out everything is not the way to go. IMVHO.

So Sanku san , Do you think your common sense statement would find echo here when big money and foreign interests seems to be involved whichever way look at the Glorious solutions.Big money can invent any number of arguments . Plea to judge each on its own merit would be like banging your head against stone headed. Did we not see the same in meltdown and you were called names. Just like protestors are being called names here as well in the name of religion or biryani eating money taking ....
Any way they my tie themselves up in knots but wont get more than 5% in energy mix and that would itself cause Big Nuclear Scam in days to come.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 08 Dec 2011 01:01

Not only that, last year grid added 12,800 MW of new capacity. Every 2 years more capacity is being added than is planned for Nuclear for the next 20 years.

It is not going to solve our energy problems and should not be sold as a solution. If we had a trully functional Thorium program, I would be sort of able to submit to it. But these imported reactors with long term imported Uranium seems to be going very much against the grain of trying to produce more energy at home. Even in coal, while we import high quality stuff, 90%+ continues to come domestically. Some 600 million tonnes at last count.

There needs to be a investigation of who all were bought off.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby RajeshA » 08 Dec 2011 03:35

Published on Dec 08, 2011
By Greg Sheridan
Gillard charms India with yellowcake: The Australian
'India will be central to almost every issue of consequence to Australia in the 21st century'
The Gillard/Rudd dynamic on this issue was peculiar in that Rudd was not consulted about the decision in advance. The thrust of his comments after the announcement was to emphasise the difficult negotiations that lay ahead in finalising safeguard agreements with India.

These negotiations will be substantial and no doubt have their difficulties. Rudd's tone will be important. He can emphasise the difficulties, which might tend to undermine Gillard's achievement, or he can present the negotiations positively. Canberra should look, in its uranium safeguards agreements with India, for no more and no less than the substance of its similar agreements with China and Russia.

We certainly should not try to bind India to any extra commitment on nuclear disarmament issues generally.

That would be not only totally unrealistic but could turn the whole exercise into a grand, new mess in the relationship.

India has never proliferated nuclear technology to any group or nation. China, by contrast, is directly or indirectly responsible for most of the nuclear proliferation in the world today.

We should certainly not demand anything of India that we do not demand of China. On the positive side, we could sponsor India's early membership of the nuclear suppliers' group.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby arnab » 08 Dec 2011 07:05

Gee - common sense arguments and clean coal and 'big money' to vilify the poor coal industry :)

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... z1fu1jMzLq

The "clean coal" campaign was always more PR than reality — currently there's no economical way to capture and sequester carbon emissions from coal, and many experts doubt there ever will be. But now the idea of clean coal might be truly dead, buried beneath the 1.1 billion gallons of water mixed with toxic coal ash that on Dec. 22 burst through a dike next to the Kingston coal plant in the Tennessee Valley and blanketed several hundred acres of land, destroying nearby houses. The accident — which released 100 times more waste than the Exxon Valdez disaster — has polluted the waterways of Harriman, Tenn., with potentially dangerous levels of toxic metals like arsenic and mercury, and left much of the town uninhabitable.




But the ash isn't currently classified as hazardous waste. Though the EPA in the past has come close to imposing stricter rules on the treatment of coal ash, the agency has repeatedly backed down in the face of opposition from utilities and the coal industry. As a result, hundreds of coal plants around the U.S. are allowed to dump their leftover sludge in unlined wet ponds like the one used by the Kingston facility. Not only does that raise the risk of accidents like the Kingston spill, but the toxins in the ash could seep into the soil or groundwater, contaminating drinking water supplies.



The coal industry itself estimates that taking better care of fly ash could cost as much as $5 billion a year — and if the government imposed a tax or cap on carbon dioxide, the price of coal would certainly rise. "For all the money the industry has spent to mislead the public, [Kingston] shows that there really is no such thing as clean and cheap coal in the U.S,"

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Sanku » 08 Dec 2011 11:04

Theo_Fidel wrote:There needs to be a investigation of who all were bought off.


Who will investigate? We already know where the rot begins, thanks to Wikileaks, Sudeendhra Kulkarani etc.

gakakkad
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby gakakkad » 08 Dec 2011 19:23

>>, Do you think your common sense statement would find echo here when big money and foreign interests seems to be involved whichever way look at the Glorious solutions.Big money can invent any number of arguments

You mean to say us BRFITES have big money with foreign interests ? Yipppeeeee ,.... we are rich yyaaaaaahoooooooo !!! I am going to by myself a nookular plant ..


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Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 08 Dec 2011 20:33

Now Russia wants a clear exception from liability as well. This for a plant that can apparently never fail.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/russ ... 63269.html

With a week left for PM Manmohan Singh's Moscow trip for the Indo-Russian annual summit, Russia on Wednesday made it clear that it would want the entire Kudankulam nuclear power project out of the purview of India's civil nuclear liability law.

Russian ambassador and old India hand Alexander Kadakin said the two sides were at an advanced stage of negotiations to sign contracts for the third and fourth reactors at Kudankulam during the December 15-17 summit. He also expressed hope that India's liability laws would not impede bilateral nuclear cooperation.

"Talks are in a very active stage about units III and IV at Kudankulam," Kadakin said. He, however, made it clear Russia wants the terms and conditions for the third and fourth reactors to be similar to the first two units.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Tanaji » 09 Dec 2011 05:08

amit wrote:
So the response is to a peripheral point in my post while the main point, that is India simply does not have sufficient land for largescale commercially viable solar farms - even with the use of fallow or non agricultural land - is ignored.

But then why am I surprised?

Ps: I'm impressed by the deep discussion going on - with tremendous data points - about other renewables like wind, tide geo-thermal etc. Only missing is some inputs about gobar gas as a renewable.



I have been asking the same questions but nary an answer from the solar power mullahs such as Theo:

  • Nuclear will scale up pretty well in case higher MW are required. A scale up from 1 reactor to 3 reactors at same site does not require 3x the land requirement as original. A solar panel plant will require 3x scaling, regardless of TF or CS panels. Where does this land come from? *No answer*
  • How does one clean these panels? Where does the cleaner come from in a water deficit country such as India *No answer*
  • Solar panels lose efficiency with increase in age. Not so with a nuclear plant. What happens when we have failing panels? Yes, replacements, but when Theo does his calculations he does not factor in these replacements..

Instead what we get is disingenuous statements such as:

One other point. KKNPP land will be off limits permanently. Even after the plant is done there is a lengthy cooling off period. We will not be able to use that land at all in our lifetimes. Solar & Wind coexist just fine with all other uses and users. Wind in particular barely disturbs existing economic activity. Infact the farmers could continue to live on the land if they so chose. They could own the land and farm the sun maintaining the panels, etc with few issues. In fact there are experiments on growing some specific crops in the shaded area.


Who do you think is going to invest multi millions required to set up solar plants? Farmers? Its going to be private companies or public sector companies. Do you think these are going to allow access to their investment? So this off-limits is bogey is a red herring: a plot of land is off limits whether it is nuclear or solar for the life of that plant. As for wind "barely disturbing": have you ever been near a windmill? The smaller ones generate noise, there is the typical whipping sound of a stick moving through air. The bigger ones kill birds: observe the ground close to them, there are dead birds around. Dead birds attract other creatures: rats, crows etc. Point is, its hardly "barely disturbing" there is no living around a windmill that is going to happen. As for cultivation around panels: sure, if the farmer owns the panels it will happen. What company will allow someone to cultivate food near their solar panel?

Point is, Theo makes it sound as if solar is panacea to everything, a swarg with naked hippies prancing around with flowers in their ears, smoking weed, joining hands and singing kumbaya all at the same time. Reality is a bit different.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Sanku » 09 Dec 2011 11:32

Brahma Chellany tweets

Japan to nationalize Tepco utility to help make compensation payments over Fukushima, while India directly saddles taxpayers with liability.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Philip » 09 Dec 2011 11:40

For solar pwoer,one will have to use innovation.I saw a most intersting building in Manchester which had both solar panels and windmills fitted to its superstructure,a truly 21st century product.We may have to similarly design vertical "solar towers" where land is limited.Frankly speaking,from my extensive travelling over the years by road, train ,planes,etc.there is so much of fallow land in India that solar plants are a good accompaniment to other renewable energy sources,wind,tidal,offshore-wind,but cannot replace N-power which is always on tap 24X7, 365 days in the year.We need every kind of power plant capability and gradually reduce the amount of polluting/greenhouse gas,thermal plants.The report about Russian plants in the future at KKM also spoke of several more plants aaprt from the KKM masterplan.The protests are fizzling out and counter-protests are coming in from TN industry which has been crippled by the 6hr. power cuts that is killing off many an industry in the state.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Prabu » 10 Dec 2011 17:49

Wonder what spin is in the offing ?
Burns heading to India to sort out n-liability issue

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Prabu » 10 Dec 2011 18:05

I think, its time for police action, if these villagers don't want to listen.
Villagers lay siege to Kudankulam nuclear plant

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby chetak » 10 Dec 2011 18:09

Theo_Fidel wrote:Not only that, last year grid added 12,800 MW of new capacity. Every 2 years more capacity is being added than is planned for Nuclear for the next 20 years.

It is not going to solve our energy problems and should not be sold as a solution. If we had a trully functional Thorium program, I would be sort of able to submit to it. But these imported reactors with long term imported Uranium seems to be going very much against the grain of trying to produce more energy at home. Even in coal, while we import high quality stuff, 90%+ continues to come domestically. Some 600 million tonnes at last count.

There needs to be a investigation of who all were bought off.



Find the guys who did the paying off to ensure the accepatance of the nuke deal by the GOI and you will find the people behind the kundankoolam agitation.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Philip » 12 Dec 2011 13:34

Something to twirl on for the votaires of wind power-being a magic bullet for our power needs.
As a propoent of wind power oneself,one knows the shortfalls and pitfalls.However,a holistic mix of various forms of energy is required and at the moment there is no way that we can abandon N-power in setting up plnts where there is accountability and liability from the supplier that satisfies the country.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... -cuts.html

Over-reliance on wind farms 'will lead to power cuts'
Britain could face power cuts within four years because of Government plans to rely on wind turbines, a leading think tank will say today.

A report by the Adam Smith Institute and the Scientific Alliance says that wind farms cannot meet the need for energy, leading to "a crisis by the middle of this decade".

It estimates that five turbines would have to be put up every day to generate the Government's targeted amount of electricity from wind, which is championed by Chris Huhne, the Energy Secretary.

Martin Livermore, a director of the Scientific Alliance, said turbines cannot be built quickly enough to replace Britain's current coal and nuclear stations, which will mostly have closed by the end of the decade

"It's a real lack of energy security," he said. "The rather frightening comparison is with South Africa, where they didn't build nearly enough power stations and they've had rolling blackouts for a number of years.

"Clearly, if we made a real effort to encourage energy efficiency, the situation might not be too bad – it doesn't look too rosy at the moment."

Related Articles
1,500 incidents on UK wind farms

The report challenges the Government's claims that generating energy from wind will be cheaper in the long run.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Prabu » 12 Dec 2011 13:48

This was called off based on an assurance by district collector that, workers of the plant will be vacated by dec 15th ???? :eek:

Siege at Kudankulam nuclear plant called off

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Dec 2011 14:33

Looks the 13,100 crore investment of GOI is now wasted and Kodakulam plant will not see the light of day. We will remember this during the summer power cuts in 2012.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Sanatanan » 12 Dec 2011 19:25



From the above link I found this interesting article:
1,500 incidents on UK wind farms 11 Dec 2011

. . .
The scale of incidents – equivalent to almost one a day – emerges following the publication of dramatic photographs showing one turbine which had crashed to the ground in a field near a road and another exploding into flames, caused by 150mph winds which buffeted Scotland and northern England last week.
. . .
Last year a 140-turbine wind farm near Glasgow was temporarily shut down after a 14-tonne fibreglass blade broke off in windy conditions and landed at the base of its tower.
Two years ago, a 50ft turbine collapsed in the playground of a school on the Island of Raasay off the coast of Scotland, and in the same year a blade on a 190 ft wind turbine in Rotherham owned by Sheffield University broke in strong winds, prompting an investigation by its manufacturers.
. . .

I have quoted only parts of the article; I think the whole article is worth a read.

From this article one can get links to more articles such as:
Gales wreck wind turbines 09 Dec 2011

I suppose, UK must be "advised" to put in place an "independent" regulator for wind farms.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby Theo_Fidel » 12 Dec 2011 19:50

Aditya_V wrote:Looks the 13,100 crore investment of GOI is now wasted and Kodakulam plant will not see the light of day. We will remember this during the summer power cuts in 2012.


IMO the plant will run. GOI needs to address concerns by making changes to regulations, management and operations. Faster it begins and completes this process, faster plant can load fuel. It is still flopping about instead of actively starting of this process.

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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Postby vishvak » 12 Dec 2011 22:25

Sanatanan wrote:1,500 incidents on UK wind farms 11 Dec 2011
...
I suppose, UK must be "advised" to put in place an "independent" regulator for wind farms.

I hope some Hindu priests stop the whole killer wind energy projects with such shameful safety records in first world countries even as also ignore information of this sort:
...said last week that wind farms had an “excellent health and safety record”, adding: “In stressful situations any power equipment may develop faults, and that’s true of gas, nuclear, oil, and is also true of wind.”

I mean how can these whites say "that’s true of gas, nuclear, oil, and is also true of wind". It is just to mislead good people and show protesters, if any, in utterly bad light, as also please note how it is said "In stressful situations any power equipment may develop faults.. " which is can be constructed as extremely subversive way to pass off excuses as reasons, just so as to ignore human rights for monetary gains.

When people give examples of nuclear energy w.r.t. wind energy, it means that (CONCLUSION) nuclear energy has much better safety record. This is the truth.

PS please also note how the First World Countries have not perfect record on wind energy.


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