India-US Strategic News and Discussion

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Theo_Fidel

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 20 Dec 2013 11:15

Rahul M wrote:we are alone and should plan that way.


This not entirely true. There is much genuine affection for India within the USA. Something we would be well advised not to pi$$ away in a H&D funk. America & Americans want to see India succeed. They are thrilled with India's rapid growth.

India needs the USA more than the USA needs us. We need get stronger before we get emotional. Cool blood please...

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Shanmukh » 20 Dec 2013 11:18

Theo_Fidel wrote:This not entirely true. There is much genuine affection for India within the USA.


We saw that affection in the custodial rape. They must have been enamoured with Dr. DK to want to rape her.

Something we would be well advised not to pi$$ away in a H&D funk.


Translation: Beware of offending the anointed of the Lord, Heathen! His wrath shall be terrible!

America & Americans want to see India succeed. They are thrilled with India's rapid growth.


I have a bridge to sell you. Would you be interested in it, perhaps?

Kati
BRFite
Posts: 1281
Joined: 27 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: The planet Earth

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kati » 20 Dec 2013 11:20

Light bulb, Light bulb blinked........
The DK's case has been in the making for 6 months?
A Little more than 6 months ago a texas-based baba (of Barsana Dham) winked at USMS and fled the country. he was charged with molesting several women.
So is this a pay back through DK?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -list.html

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18861
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Dec 2013 11:21

RM, agree.. high time the Augean stables were cleaned up.

Theo_Fidel wrote:No way the USA backs down over this. People don't understand how the US works.
Diplomat committed a personal error in judgement and must now pay the personal price. The US system is built on extracting this price.
Hiding behind diplomatic immunity for personal action is weak.


Indian establishment is quite clear that this is a practise condoned by both nations,till this event. So, no Mrs DK shouldnt be given up.

BTW the optics of this in American public opinion is horrible. It is impossible for folks to defend India in this when pointed questions are asked in USA.


So, the optics in US public opinion > optics in Indian public opinion?

Back away folks, we are not yet strong enough to challenge.


So Mrs DK should be given up? Sets a precedent, a bad one.

American media is unhappy over the way India has defended the perpetrator.


Ah, American media. Advising India on whom India should elect, on what Indians should feel bad about..etc. That American media

The whole thing looks like feudal privilege gone wrong from outside. There will be consequences for India one way or another if we persist.


And if we dont persist, the precedent of giving up an Indian diplomat also speaks for itself.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 20 Dec 2013 11:21

There was no rape. Folks in India can not understand that this is how all americans are processed. Even Ken Lay CEO of $50 Billion company was strip searched and thrown into drunk tank.

Someday India will be the same and there will be no privilege for anyone in India as well.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13148
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 20 Dec 2013 11:22

Kati wrote:....Is massa planning to settle the case just b4 the election and that gives INC a huge "victory over massa" boost in the election? Looks far-fetched. The real victim, that is DK, is a dalit, and that will give other parties a long stick to beat INC.
If INC has to get any credit it can't wait till the last moment. Also till she is in US with the charges standing it will give the opposition the stick to beat INC.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13148
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 20 Dec 2013 11:23

Theo_Fidel wrote:There was no rape. Folks in India can not understand that this is how all americans are processed. Even Ken Lay CEO of $50 Billion company was strip searched and thrown into drunk tank.

Someday India will be the same and there will be no privilege for anyone in India as well.
May be not per US law but it is rape as per Indian law .. I know I know it happened on US soil so US law will apply ityadi ..
Last edited by pankajs on 20 Dec 2013 11:26, edited 1 time in total.

nawabs
BRFite
Posts: 1637
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby nawabs » 20 Dec 2013 11:25

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/45464bd4-685c ... abdc0.html

Apostle handle - The decision to deny Ms. Khobragade diplomatic immunity, arrest her and do standard cavity examination/search almost certainly came after a full office review of the Department of Justice. For those unaware of American prosecutorial process, our federal criminal cases go through a methodical institutionalized process in the United States. Some of the highest ranking officials deliberate and approve, before an arrest is ordered. The decision to deny Ms. Khobragade diplomatic immunity was 99% likely done, for among other things, to send India a message.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16879
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 20 Dec 2013 11:26

Theo, that might be true, for a small segment of US society. but the US govt has already made it amply clear that it doesn't consider India to be worthy of minimum respect, much less a friend. the treatment meted out to India would be unthinkable to even one of the so called axis of evil countries, much less a friend.

USG has already shrugged off any pretense of being a friend, we should take the unambiguous hint and act accordingly.


>> India needs the USA more than the USA needs us.
I am not convinced. even after the P2 tests many advised an abject surrender was in India's interest. we didn't, in spite of the fact that we were much weaker back then and emerged stronger for it.

saumitra_j
BRFite
Posts: 337
Joined: 24 Dec 2005 17:13
Location: Pune, India

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saumitra_j » 20 Dec 2013 11:26

Theo_Fidel wrote:No way the USA backs down over this. People don't understand how the US works.
Diplomat committed a personal error in judgement and must now pay the personal price. The US system is built on extracting this price.
Hiding behind diplomatic immunity for personal action is weak.

BTW the optics of this in American public opinion is horrible. It is impossible for folks to defend India in this when pointed questions are asked in USA. Back away folks, we are not yet strong enough to challenge. American media is unhappy over the way India has defended the perpetrator. The whole thing looks like feudal privilege gone wrong from outside. There will be consequences for India one way or another if we persist.


And pray, what would those consequences be? Bring 'em on, we have been through enough sanctions before to worry about the consequences. There is NOTHING of consequence that India imports from the US that it cannot get from elsewhere.

On the other hand, you are right, people do not understand how the US works. People in India need to understand they they will be subjected to stripping and cavity searches normally subjected for hardened criminals, on any pretext, just for being Indians. That is something which we really do not understand, but thanks to this incident, we will start understanding now.

Theo, I think it is the US does not understand how India works. Had DK been an aam abdul, everything would have been forgotten but given that she is a Dalit, it makes it politically impossible for any party to not defend her and given that she is from the IFS, it will remain in the institutional memory for ever. Long term consequences for this would be for the US, and given the fact that US is slowly and inevitably loosing all its allies, it is a very stupid move by the honchos at SD. Just imagine, Russia and China already pi$$ at them and now India will inevitably join the gang. The Pakiness in all this is just amazing!

I am happy that US SD has done what we Indians could not do because of Shri MMS and other assorted America lovers: Created an institutional memory of USA being a nasty nation which is in fact a reality if you read and understand history. This is good for us in the long term and as I have said before, Indians should simply be aware of the fact that the land of milk and honey is also a land of strip and cavity searches (aka Institutional Rape). And act accordingly....
Last edited by saumitra_j on 20 Dec 2013 11:30, edited 1 time in total.

Shanmukh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Shanmukh » 20 Dec 2013 11:27

Theo_Fidel wrote:There was no rape. Folks in India can not understand that this is how all americans are processed. Even Ken Lay CEO of $50 Billion company was strip searched and thrown into drunk tank.

Someday India will be the same and there will be no privilege for anyone in India as well.


Just because American law enforcement rapes everyone does not mean that we should submit to it.

I fervently hope we will not turn into a country where rape is legal when perpetrated by a section of the society. Just because it is patronised by your Massa does not mean that the rest of us have fallen so low.

As for privilege, don't even go there, Theo. Let us just say there is more privilege and entitlement in US than there is in India.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 20 Dec 2013 11:28

India cannot be ever like any other country in the world

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18861
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Dec 2013 11:29

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Rahul M wrote:we are alone and should plan that way.


This not entirely true. There is much genuine affection for India within the USA. Something we would be well advised not to pi$$ away in a H&D funk. America & Americans want to see India succeed. They are thrilled with India's rapid growth.

India needs the USA more than the USA needs us. We need get stronger before we get emotional. Cool blood please...


Quick question. Average American may dislike the PRC and Russia. Are they stronger than India economically and technologically, respectively, even so? So does the rise of nations depend on how much average citizens like those nations or on real politik and what those nations themselves do? I believe that is what Rahul M is getting at.
Strength comes from within, not without.
Last edited by Karan M on 20 Dec 2013 11:33, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Dec 2013 11:30

a pet dog also gets love of the master. good love, good food, free food - but still a pet on a leash.

its better to live with dignity with less posh food as a wild dog or even better wolf.

its the same arrogant attitude like spying on angela merkel of all people in collusion with its running dawgs in the anglosphere who have a joint agreement, and trying the same in the elysee palace on the french premier. these are military allies who have stood with them for decades against dire threats....we are nothing in comparison...no nothing much to lose also.

Lilo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4069
Joined: 23 Jun 2007 09:08

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Lilo » 20 Dec 2013 11:33

Theo_Fidel wrote:BTW the optics of this in American public opinion is horrible. It is impossible for folks to defend India in this when pointed questions are asked in USA. Back away folks, we are not yet strong enough to challenge. American media is unhappy over the way India has defended the perpetrator. The whole thing looks like feudal privilege gone wrong from outside. There will be consequences for India one way or another if we persist.


TF ji,
Did any one in the apparently free and fair Massa mainstream , ask the most important question ?

Why was the woman diplomat stripped and a cavity search was conducted on her .. When that cavity search and stripping is reserved to only the violent criminals and other "dangerous" individuals according to USMC rules ?

Did any of the Massa "mainstream" you play ball with have a direct answer for the above simple question ?

Off course I need not remind that the bulk of outrage is because the lady diplomat has been stripped and cavity searched(which amounts to rape under Indian law and culture). BTW doesn't this fact alone (I.e by itself) not have its moral force to fight her humiliation , when voiced by a billion+ voices in India and abroad?
What other separate "power" needs to be acquired to mount this fight against one sided Humiliation of a countries Diplomats ?
Last edited by Lilo on 20 Dec 2013 11:34, edited 1 time in total.

Kati
BRFite
Posts: 1281
Joined: 27 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: The planet Earth

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kati » 20 Dec 2013 11:33

The Telegraph, Dec 20, 2013, Kolkata

Row hits zone that needs top intervention

K.P. NAYAR

Washington, Dec. 20: Any resolution of the escalating row over victimised diplomat Devyani Khobragade will require decisive political intervention between India and the US at the highest level.

By personally wading into the issue, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has created the space for such intervention from India’s side. “This is deplorable,” Singh said, using unusually strong words about Khobragade’s treatment by Americans when he was approached by reporters outside Parliament yesterday.

In the US, momentum may be building up towards such intervention with Congressmen beginning to express their irritation over how the Obama administration has mindlessly risked one of their country’s foreign relationships — with India — which was in full bloom for over a decade.

This morning, Tulsi Gabbard, the first Hindu member of the US Congress, issued a statement expressing her disappointment over how the case against India’s deputy consul-general in New York was handled.

“I was disappointed to hear initial reports about the treatment of Devyani Khobragade,” she said in comments on the issue. “I urge the state department to work with its counterparts in India to ensure our relationship remains strong and to ensure our law enforcement agencies put appropriate protocols in place for these situations.”

She said “our relationship with India is deeply valued and the progress we are making on economic, political and security issues is key in Asia and the Pacific region.… Diplomats play a vital role in our ever-shrinking globalised world. And among America’s partnerships, the importance of our alliance with India cannot be overstated.”

Although Gabbard is a practising Hindu, she is not Indian. Both her parents are white Americans and she has been elected from Hawaii as a Democrat.

Yesterday, Indian-American Congressman Amerish Bera became the first US legislator to criticise how the Obama administration handled the New York case. He just stopped short of demanding outright that Khobragade and India deserve an apology for this lapse.

In an interview to India Abroad, an ethnic newspaper here, Bera said: “If there are apologies that should be made, we should make these apologies.… If there were mistakes made, then obviously apologising helps us move forward and work through any misunderstandings and that is a good thing.”

Describing the entire episode as “unfortunate”, the Congressman pointed out that “this has been such a good year in the US-India relationship with our friendship and the countries growing ever more closer together and planning for a future together. I still hope that our diplomats — at our end — and the Indian diplomats are able to absorb this and move forward, and smoothen things over as quickly as possible, and rectify this if there was an injustice done.”

Bera is elected from California and, like Gabbard, belongs to President Barack Obama’s Democratic Party. That makes reactions by both members of Congress significant.

Gabbard and Bera are both members of the Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans. If these comments are indicative of the feelings within the Caucus, there is every likelihood that pressure may build up on Obama to personally intervene in the matter and act to resolve it.

But any such action will have to be based on India’s statement today that “there is only one victim in this case, that victim is Devyani Khobragade” and take steps to undo the wrong done to her and to her country.

In 1999, when Pakistan’s infiltration into Kargil and the subsequent war threatened stability in South Asia, the state department was reluctant to support India. So was president Bill Clinton, contrary to popular belief.

It was only after the India Caucus was in ferment and the House of Representatives acted resolutely to define Pakistani aggression as such that Clinton decided to summon Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to Washington and ask him to withdraw Pakistani forces to the Line of Control.

This time, however, reality dictates that support for the Indian diplomat within the India Caucus may be slower to build up. That is because at the popular level in America, there is much support for the maid Sangeeta Richard and very little for Khobragade.

Going by comments in the social media and on news websites from readers, the maid is seen as the victim of a well-to-do diplomat who is refusing to pay American minimum wage to her household staff. It is such support that is encouraging New York authorities to persist in their determination to punish Khobragade.

In any case, there is a lot of jealousy here against diplomats. In New York, adding to that is an undercurrent of popular resentment because many diplomats, especially from nouveau riche Gulf states, misuse their immunity and behave haughtily with lesser mortals.

If the Obama administration moves towards political intervention at the highest level to deescalate the tension with India, the trigger would have been an admission by the prosecuting New York attorney in this case, Preet Bharara, that he virtually conspired to spirit out the maid’s family, all Indian nationals, and bring them to the US.

Although Bharara may have acted within the confines of US laws, such laws were enacted here to protect victims of excesses in the worst dictatorships and repressive regimes, not citizens of a democracy like India, which is praised constantly in America for its shared values with the US.

It is understood that the undersecretary of state for political affairs, Wendy Sherman, who spoke to foreign secretary Sujatha Singh today, was at a loss to defend Bharara’s action. The foreign secretary questioned a defensive Sherman about the right of a foreign government to “evacuate” Indian citizens from within its borders while cases were pending against those citizens in Indian courts, sources said.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13148
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 20 Dec 2013 11:34

VijayR wrote:We should quickly slap a counter charge on US staffers in India
A reciprocal arrest is the quickest way to solve this issue , instead of appealing to them to drop charges against KD
Also , isn't law enforcement a state subject in India

Surely we too have zealous / over zealous officers in some state where there are US consulates who can shoot first and ask questions later ( I meant by way of slapping a legal case )
Give diplomacy a chance. Then there is a date in Jan 2014 when this case will start rolling .. India will perhaps wait till then and the real payback, if any, will happen after that.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7716
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 20 Dec 2013 11:34

Theo_Fidel wrote:There was no rape. Folks in India can not understand that this is how all americans are processed. Even Ken Lay CEO of $50 Billion company was strip searched and thrown into drunk tank.


Correction - she is NOT American or even a common Indian citizen. She is an INDIAN DIPLOMAT and the Diplomat's need to be accorded courtesy as prevalent in international relations. The 50 billion USD company owner is an AMERICAN citizen and it is up to Americans to decide how they treat her. But not the INDIAN diplomat. Don't forget his distinction.

Someday India will be the same and there will be no privilege for anyone in India as well.


Incorrect statement based on wrong premise. What happens in India with respect to INDIAN citizens or even common foreign nationals is purview of Indian legal system. And societal moors. Even then, foreign DIPLOMATS are/will not be subjected to same treatment for that is the international understanding.

Don't confuse the issue.

munna
BRFite
Posts: 1392
Joined: 18 Nov 2007 05:03
Location: Pee Arr Eff's resident Constitution Compliance Strategist (Phd, with upper hand)

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby munna » 20 Dec 2013 11:35

Theo_Fidel wrote:There was no rape. Folks in India can not understand that this is how all americans are processed. Even Ken Lay CEO of $50 Billion company was strip searched and thrown into drunk tank.


Do you still want India to believe that this is a case of wage dispute with absolutely no diplomatic or espionage angle to it? In matters of statecraft targeting of messengers (diplomats) will provoke charged emotions. Because once diplomats are treated as pawns in the game then friendly flag gets immediately replaced by a hostile one. In this case it was the US DOJ that either mistakenly or purposefully changed the flag.

Perhaps Rudradevji and others are right, the powers that be have decided that current Indian establishment or in-fact paradigm of Indo-US relations has outlived its utility and hence they must deliver a quick thappad to the face and leave them Indians like a boss. It is a great lesson for Indian establishment and electorate. The biggest losers in this game will be the followers of ancien regime viz the NRIs, RNIs and PIOs. This decade can be a nice topic for Phd thesis, students of international politics please take note.

Someday India will be the same and there will be no privilege for anyone in India as well.


The future is here and people of the old order would not like the new order. Perhaps US has signalled the arrival of it by treating the ancien regime like dirt.

Raja
BRFite
Posts: 105
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Raja » 20 Dec 2013 11:37

Some of the theories in this thread are so misplaced from current geopolitical realities that it would be an insult to all good conspiracy theories out there to brand them as such.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 20 Dec 2013 11:37

Well then she should not have gone to USA. This is simply how all Americans are treated.
It is easy for folks to throw petrol bombs. Folks who live on both sides have to represent in India everyday in US. Questions are asked and people are not fools. It is impossible to defend India in this.
We need USA capital and USA money. Consequences will have to do with capital and out ability to access it. There are no options. At least not yet...

Actually the USA understands India after its own fashion. And we are playing into all the wrong stereo types right now. Our enemies are having a nice time undermining us.
-------------------------------------

RahulM,

That is not how USA works. A few years ago the consul of Austria went to LA to visit a Austrian citizen in prison. There was a tussle and the local government threw the consul in prison. Neither the state nor the GoTuS could intervene. There are wheel within wheels. This is one of those situations.

Please remember what happened to Indians and Indian companies after Pokharan. India did not recover until sanctions were lifted after tapping that deep reservoir of good will there exists for India in USA. No one else got that deal. Not TSP, or Iran or even SA & Brazil.

It is best to be cold blooded in this. There will be a time to set things straight. But not when we are so dependent on the US $.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13148
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 20 Dec 2013 11:40

saumitra_j wrote:I am happy that US SD has done what we Indians could not do because of Shri MMS and other assorted America lovers: Created an institutional memory of USA being a nasty nation which is in fact a reality if you read and understand history. This is good for us in the long term and as I have said before, Indians should simply be aware of the fact that the land of milk and honey is also a land of strip and cavity searches (aka Institutional Rape). And act accordingly....

Agree sirji. Do not we remember the USS <whatever> sailing into the Bay of Bengal during the '71 war?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18861
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Dec 2013 11:41

Kati wrote:The Telegraph, Dec 20, 2013, Kolkata

Row hits zone that needs top intervention

K.P. NAYAR

Washington, Dec. 20: Any resolution of the escalating row over victimised diplomat Devyani Khobragade will require decisive political intervention between India and the US at the highest level.

By personally wading into the issue, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has created the space for such intervention from India’s side. “This is deplorable,” Singh said, using unusually strong words about Khobragade’s treatment by Americans when he was approached by reporters outside Parliament yesterday.

In the US, momentum may be building up towards such intervention with Congressmen beginning to express their irritation over how the Obama administration has mindlessly risked one of their country’s foreign relationships — with India — which was in full bloom for over a decade.

This morning, Tulsi Gabbard, the first Hindu member of the US Congress, issued a statement expressing her disappointment over how the case against India’s deputy consul-general in New York was handled.

“I was disappointed to hear initial reports about the treatment of Devyani Khobragade,” she said in comments on the issue. “I urge the state department to work with its counterparts in India to ensure our relationship remains strong and to ensure our law enforcement agencies put appropriate protocols in place for these situations.”

She said “our relationship with India is deeply valued and the progress we are making on economic, political and security issues is key in Asia and the Pacific region.… Diplomats play a vital role in our ever-shrinking globalised world. And among America’s partnerships, the importance of our alliance with India cannot be overstated.”

Although Gabbard is a practising Hindu, she is not Indian. Both her parents are white Americans and she has been elected from Hawaii as a Democrat.

Yesterday, Indian-American Congressman Amerish Bera became the first US legislator to criticise how the Obama administration handled the New York case. He just stopped short of demanding outright that Khobragade and India deserve an apology for this lapse.

In an interview to India Abroad, an ethnic newspaper here, Bera said: “If there are apologies that should be made, we should make these apologies.… If there were mistakes made, then obviously apologising helps us move forward and work through any misunderstandings and that is a good thing.”

Describing the entire episode as “unfortunate”, the Congressman pointed out that “this has been such a good year in the US-India relationship with our friendship and the countries growing ever more closer together and planning for a future together. I still hope that our diplomats — at our end — and the Indian diplomats are able to absorb this and move forward, and smoothen things over as quickly as possible, and rectify this if there was an injustice done.”

Bera is elected from California and, like Gabbard, belongs to President Barack Obama’s Democratic Party. That makes reactions by both members of Congress significant.

Gabbard and Bera are both members of the Congressional Caucus on India and Indian Americans. If these comments are indicative of the feelings within the Caucus, there is every likelihood that pressure may build up on Obama to personally intervene in the matter and act to resolve it.

But any such action will have to be based on India’s statement today that “there is only one victim in this case, that victim is Devyani Khobragade” and take steps to undo the wrong done to her and to her country.

In 1999, when Pakistan’s infiltration into Kargil and the subsequent war threatened stability in South Asia, the state department was reluctant to support India. So was president Bill Clinton, contrary to popular belief.

It was only after the India Caucus was in ferment and the House of Representatives acted resolutely to define Pakistani aggression as such that Clinton decided to summon Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to Washington and ask him to withdraw Pakistani forces to the Line of Control.

This time, however, reality dictates that support for the Indian diplomat within the India Caucus may be slower to build up. That is because at the popular level in America, there is much support for the maid Sangeeta Richard and very little for Khobragade.

Going by comments in the social media and on news websites from readers, the maid is seen as the victim of a well-to-do diplomat who is refusing to pay American minimum wage to her household staff. It is such support that is encouraging New York authorities to persist in their determination to punish Khobragade.

In any case, there is a lot of jealousy here against diplomats. In New York, adding to that is an undercurrent of popular resentment because many diplomats, especially from nouveau riche Gulf states, misuse their immunity and behave haughtily with lesser mortals.

If the Obama administration moves towards political intervention at the highest level to deescalate the tension with India, the trigger would have been an admission by the prosecuting New York attorney in this case, Preet Bharara, that he virtually conspired to spirit out the maid’s family, all Indian nationals, and bring them to the US.

Although Bharara may have acted within the confines of US laws, such laws were enacted here to protect victims of excesses in the worst dictatorships and repressive regimes, not citizens of a democracy like India, which is praised constantly in America for its shared values with the US.

It is understood that the undersecretary of state for political affairs, Wendy Sherman, who spoke to foreign secretary Sujatha Singh today, was at a loss to defend Bharara’s action. The foreign secretary questioned a defensive Sherman about the right of a foreign government to “evacuate” Indian citizens from within its borders while cases were pending against those citizens in Indian courts, sources said.


Kudos to Ms Gabbard and Mr Bera for displaying (un)common sense as versus Mr Bharara. Lets see if the US is indeed serious about salvaging the situation.

So far in one amazing move, they have alienated the one nation in South Asia, that was hitherto quite pro America.

Good going.

devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby devesh » 20 Dec 2013 11:41

Rahul M,

when I said "EJ poodle", I mean it as this: that TF sees no better role for India than as an "EJ Poodle".

I was not calling him an "EJ poodle". but I'll keep your unofficial warning in mind as I read his bilge.

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7438
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 20 Dec 2013 11:46

Theo_Fidel wrote:There was no rape. Folks in India can not understand that this is how all americans are processed. Even Ken Lay CEO of $50 Billion company was strip searched and thrown into drunk tank.

Someday India will be the same and there will be no privilege for anyone in India as well.

Hopefully not. This was upheld by the supreme court on the slimmest of margins with very grave misgivings and is still debated vociferously. So despite being legal, it is contentious.

Interestingly, DK's father says, Richard's pay was split into INR 30k in India paid to the family and the rest to her in the US. Wonder how that corresponds to the chargesheet mentioning only the INR 30K. Given that she started working last year, she must have a W-2. I wonder what the W-2 says her wages are. That is a private document I think. So unless the court requests it, nobody can see it.

Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3633
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Neela » 20 Dec 2013 11:46

Theo_Fidel wrote:Well then she should not have gone to USA.This is simply how all Americans are treated.

Eh?
You just gave a peek into what you are thinking.
Last edited by Neela on 20 Dec 2013 11:47, edited 2 times in total.

Kati
BRFite
Posts: 1281
Joined: 27 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: The planet Earth

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kati » 20 Dec 2013 11:47

This is the time to tell our friends who have accounts with Citi, BoA, etc. to shift them to Indian banks. eventually artha danda works.

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3021
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Dipanker » 20 Dec 2013 11:47

Does this escalation help or hurt UPA's prospect? I think it helps them.

GOI has definitely surprised all by this somewhat aggressive response. Given the fact that China dragged our H&D through mud several times this year including allegedly occupying Indian territory, Iran thumbed our nose by hijacking Indian ship from international water, and Pakis killed so many of our troops on LOC as well as in the interior by terrorist attack, the GOI response through all these ignominies heaped on India was at best feeble, and worst anti-national.

The problem I see with current escalation that it may improve UPA election chances but may hurt Indian interest, something I don't think they care anyway.

a_bharat
BRFite
Posts: 644
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 09:54

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby a_bharat » 20 Dec 2013 11:48

Whatever the US might have wanted to originally achieve, it has now become a prestige issue for both India and US. US had multiple options to defuse the situation, but they chose the worst route (for India). India has only two options -- take it lying down or payback the US in the same way so the US can be brought to the bargaining table.

As Sankarshan Thakur said "but for the churlish pre-election atmosphere created by Modi" GOI wouldn't have taken the steps it did. Whether he is right or wrong, GoI did take half a step in the direction of challenging the US. At this point, we shouldn't back down, but shall pursue the path chosen with full commitment (visibly so) and face the consequences -- not only for DK but also for India's security.

devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby devesh » 20 Dec 2013 11:48

Karan M ji,

can you please post the link to that article? thanks.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 20 Dec 2013 11:49

Rohitvats,

First she is a consul not a diplomat. Even a diplomat is not allowed to break local laws. This is not the first maid incident to have occurred WRT India and local law enforcement undoubtedly had their radar up. Lady was foolish to try to think she was immune. Demanding immunity from local arresting cop almost guaranteed she would would suffer the full indignities of arrest.

Second yes I very much think there will be a day all consuls/diplomats and citizens will be treated the same in India.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18861
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Dec 2013 11:51

devesh wrote:Karan M ji,

can you please post the link to that article? thanks.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1131220/j ... rPpMOJZ0r0

devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby devesh » 20 Dec 2013 11:51

I hope the Indian people in general come to the realization that only POWER speaks. if one good thing comes out of this, I hope it's that. these incidents will leave their mark. the rising generation should remember the lesson. sugar coated words of appreciation are all meaningless. when it comes to real interests, it is only POWER which speaks. all else is illusion.

nvishal
BRFite
Posts: 775
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:03

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby nvishal » 20 Dec 2013 11:52

Kick out every US state official from indian soil
Cut the flow of the so-called "charity transfers" coming to india
Cut the whole EJ funding through its root

They've built any empire for all these years in india
It's time to bring it all down

No protestant movement in any part of india can survive if you cut the funding. Trust me on this guys.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18861
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 20 Dec 2013 11:53

TF, yes indeed saar, blame the victim. That always works.

devesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5129
Joined: 17 Feb 2011 03:27

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby devesh » 20 Dec 2013 11:53

I think it's really time to reciprocate with an arrest of some American diplomat on some wrong doing. it's time to see if the defenders of American honor and "system" respond with equal ferocity in defending their motherland's.

Kati
BRFite
Posts: 1281
Joined: 27 Jun 1999 11:31
Location: The planet Earth

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kati » 20 Dec 2013 11:54

Junior babus are angry

-------------------------------------------------------------
The Telegraph, Kolkata, Dec 20, 2013

30 young guests who played a part in reply
CHARU SUDAN KASTURI
New Delhi, Dec. 19: Sujatha Singh had summoned the American ambassador a day before but the foreign secretary was not expecting the 30 guests last Saturday who in three hours would help shape India’s unusually muscular response to the arrest of diplomat Devyani Khobragade.

India’s foreign policy establishment was planning to wait over the weekend for Washington to respond to Singh’s decision to summon ambassador Nancy Powell on Friday — its strongest protest in over a decade against the US.

Khobragade, arrested on Thursday morning, had been released the same day, and there appeared no immediate desperation to make additional public statements of displeasure.

But on Saturday, about 30 young Indian Foreign Service officers turned up at Singh’s Pandit Uma Shankar Dixit residence in New Delhi’s diplomatic enclave, around 2km from the US embassy.

They were hurt and angry at the arrest and mistreatment of their colleague by the US marshals in New York, and wanted to join the top echelons of the foreign ministry in planning a response.

Singh broke with the rigid rank-based barriers that define most Indian government departments, heard them out, and engaged with them in a rare three-hour brainstorming session over cups of tea and coffee that veteran diplomats are struggling to remember parallels to.

“And what you’ve seen over the past week has been a definite result of that session, one where we drew not just on our diplomatic sense but also on the ideas and pain of younger colleagues,” a senior official aware of the meeting and the conversations revealed to The Telegraph.

Bulldozers yanking away American embassy barricades, a stern threat to withdraw immunities and a willingness to put one of New Delhi’s most successful and cherished relationships on the line — India’s response to Khobragade’s arrest has surprised many.

But it was not only closed-door meetings involving national security adviser Shivshankar Menon, foreign secretary Singh, other top diplomats and their political bosses which forged India’s strategy that on Friday appeared to have started yielding results.

“Many of the best ideas we applied over this week came from that brainstorming session,” an official said. “It was expected to last perhaps an hour at the most, but it went on for three hours on Saturday.”

One of these ideas was the decision to move Khobragade to India’s permanent mission to the UN in New York to give her greater immunity from possible attempts to arrest her again, the officials said.

Singh was surprised, the officials said, by the number of IFS officers — in their 30s and 40s — who came to her on Saturday. “She and all of us were expecting about a dozen officers, but the fact that so many turned up shows the level of anger, hurt and a desire to proactively intervene that they felt,” an official said.

Young IFS officers who attended the meeting said the foreign secretary was herself hurt — and not just at the way Khobragade was treated.

She, officials said, was convinced that state department officials she met in Washington during a visit that ended the day the diplomat was arrested, knew about the charges against Khobragade, and possibly of the plans to arrest her, but never discussed the case with her.

Singh returned to India on December 12, the very day Khobragade was arrested.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13148
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 20 Dec 2013 11:56

a_bharat wrote:As Sankarshan Thakur said "but for the churlish pre-election atmosphere created by Modi" GOI wouldn't have taken the steps it did. Whether he is right or wrong, GoI did take half a step in the direction of challenging the US. At this point, we shouldn't back down, but shall pursue the path chosen with full commitment (visibly so) and face the consequences -- not only for DK but also for India's security.

So Modi has already started the dictating our foreign policy without being anywhere near the power center in Delhi. Quite an achievement for a Chaiwalla! More pawa to him and more Chai for all of us I say.
Last edited by pankajs on 20 Dec 2013 11:59, edited 1 time in total.


A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11637
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby A_Gupta » 20 Dec 2013 11:59

Diplomat Devayani Khobragade was strip searched by the US Marshal Service. If you look up their policies and directives (from 2010), you will find that a strip search was legally allowed only if there was reasonable suspicion that the prisoner has contraband or weapons, or is a security, escape or suicide risk. If a strip search was conducted, the Marshals had to fill out paperwork with the justification.

But then the US Supreme Court, in 2012, ruled that strip searches could be conducted by the arresting authorities with no justification necessary. If you are stopped for jay walking (crossing the road disregarding the traffic signal) the officer can strip search you, and you have no legal recourse.

The US, instead of being the land of the free, has become a country where the government spies on its citizens' phones and email, and can examine their body orifices at will. Most Americans are taking all of this lying down - all it took was a 9/11 to knock the stuffing out their supposed love of freedom.

PS: You can find the US Marshal Service directives on body searches, etc., from 2010 here:
http://www.usmarshals.gov/foia/Directiv ... arches.pdf

PPS: Here is a news-story about aforementioned US Supreme Court decision allowing strip searches for anything:
http://www.npr.org/2012/04/02/149866209 ... -offenders
Last edited by A_Gupta on 20 Dec 2013 12:10, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArjunPandit and 65 guests