India-US Strategic News and Discussion

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 29 Dec 2013 13:31

Another lesson is about how innocent USA people are about USA Senate not passing international accords in parts or local interpretations - when it is Indian lady diplomat who is harassed against international norms; but that doesn't stop these people to chatter like innocent bystanders only who simply ask blanket questions.

Now PIOs/NRIs are to individually read all the pages on BR and individually prepare essay length answers, for their assumed answerable roles.

Pagaans heathens and assorted nomads and jungle people are easily harassed only. Wonder why, is it because they are labelled jungle people!

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 29 Dec 2013 13:36

chetak wrote:
chaanakya wrote:^^The reason we have not signed CISMOA with them.



They are demanding diplomatic protection for their randy soldiers and marines during R&R in India.

:rotfl: Most advanced and most powerful nation in the history of humanity only. Just another facet of wild wild superpower west. It is like that only what to do, at least the randy GIJoes aren't heathens and pagaans.

Is this aspect of wild wild superpower west noticed for any other country when soldiers get to exercise.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23598
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 29 Dec 2013 13:38

RKumar wrote:I would suggest to go one step ahead and drop all special and one sided privileges to so called first world countries. Other countries will also blame US for their troubles :mrgreen: and it is also plain corrective action. Respect is earned, it is not given without a reason.



Sirjee, there are no one sided privileges.

For every "unilateral" privilege sought and extended to the amerikhans, some very tangible quid pro quo has been extracted by the greedy babus in terms of visas, admissions, scholarships, research assistantship and what not.

The entire consular/diplomatic corps knows that there is a price for everything in New Delhi.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23598
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 29 Dec 2013 13:46

vishvak wrote:
chetak wrote:{quote="chaanakya"}^^The reason we have not signed CISMOA with them.{/quote}


They are demanding diplomatic protection for their randy soldiers and marines during R&R in India.


:rotfl: Most advanced and most powerful nation in the history of humanity only. Just another facet of wild wild superpower west. It is like that only what to do, at least the randy GIJoes aren't heathens and pagaans.

Is this aspect of wild wild superpower west noticed for any other country when soldiers get to exercise.



This is a more frequent, easy and economical way to reward their troops in the region, instead of flying them to europe/japan for bonking with all the attendant overt anti americanism and it's real dangers of legal entanglements.

RKumar
BRFite
Posts: 1289
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 12:29
Location: Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 29 Dec 2013 14:21

chetak wrote:Sirjee, there are no one sided privileges.

For every "unilateral" privilege sought and extended to the amerikhans, some very tangible quid pro quo has been extracted by the greedy babus in terms of visas, admissions, scholarships, research assistantship and what not.

The entire consular/diplomatic corps knows that there is a price for everything in New Delhi.


That is the whole point, it should be based on the national interests but not on individual. If there were some personal favours done or offered, it is good time to take those back in a blanket move without any exception. Time to time, such checks and actions should be done to communicate that such indirect benefit can't go on forever. It is very simple policy if GoI has the courage to implement it.

PS: No sirjee, I am still a trainee :P

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23598
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 29 Dec 2013 14:33

Universal truth, Nothing like a swift kick in the nuts........

and also the greed for profitable business onlee

Wouldn't at all be surprised if the amerkhans weaseled their way beck into the MMRCA deal


Strong Indian response shocks US officials




Sun Dec 29 2013


India's unusual tough stand on the arrest of its diplomat Devyani Khobragade has forced the US to initiate an "inter-agency review" to look into the lapses that happened in the high-profile case that triggered an uproar in India and strained bilateral ties.

The US departments involved in the review include the National Security Council of the White House, the State Department and the Justice Department.

"An inter-agency review is going on right now to look into the lapses that happened in the case," sources.

In a tacit acknowledgement of the fact that there was a "judgemental error" in handling this case, sources said the inter-agency team led by the State Department is "working 24X7" to get it resolved as quickly as possible.

Now that the matter has landed up in the judiciary, a lot depends on the judges too - for which the Department of Justice and the Southern District of New York is being actively engaged.

It is believed that the Department of Defense has expressed its displeasure over the manner in which the entire issue was handled.

At a time, when the Pentagon is busy reviewing its policy towards Asia Pacific region wherein India fits as a major player in its scheme of things and is eyeing to have a large pie in the modernisation programme of the Indian armed forces, the last thing it would like to see is any strain in its ties with New Delhi, officials said.

A 1999-batch IFS officer, Khobragade, India's Deputy Consul General in New York, was arrested on charges of making false declarations in a visa application for her maid Sangeeta Richard. She was released on a USD 250,000 bond.

The 39-year-old diplomat was strip searched and held with criminals, triggering a row between the two sides with India retaliating by downgrading privileges of certain category of US diplomats among other steps.


KJo
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9852
Joined: 05 Oct 2010 02:54

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby KJo » 29 Dec 2013 14:46

Sagar G wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Unless the Indian American community becomes 15 million or so and can politically turn states in favour of Democrats or Republicans, it is not fair for them to be expected to support India, many are on test of thier Americaness throughout thier lives. Many Americans are constantly testing them for it.

For ex. Bobby Jindal or Nicky Haley can run for elections unless the converted thier religion, and the US has taken great care to make sure among Indian Americans is a large share of leftists, children of personal who are more than willing to compromise India Interests in India for profit.


So basically what you are saying is that PIO's are dhobi ke kutte, na ghar ke na ghat ke.

Well I never trusted this set of people, but nice that people in India are waking up to the fact that the MUTU class is more anti India than US itself.


:roll:
Loos like India's impotence in DK case has resulted in gussa directed at PIOs.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24186
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 29 Dec 2013 14:59

chetak wrote:Strong Indian response shocks US officials
It is believed that the Department of Defense has expressed its displeasure over the manner in which the entire issue was handled.

Now, that's quite interesting, if true.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24186
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 29 Dec 2013 15:16


Shocked them in a surprising way. They were used so far to India meekly following the diktats or insults.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23598
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chetak » 29 Dec 2013 15:23

SSridhar ji,

Article looks planted as you have no doubt surmised correctly. I seriously wonder if anything could deter the end of year ritualistic holiday syndrome of the goras. It seems something like a filler to keep the pot simmering harmlessly until the gora babus come back post holidays and creatively "negotiate" their way out of this minor state department contretemps.

It's also the amerkhan carrot and the stick being shown together.

TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 954
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TKiran » 29 Dec 2013 15:37

US State Department had always been anti-India, But Dept. Of Defence had been sympathetic to indian points of view. Unless those in State Dept. With anti-indian views die (Remember in US there is nothing called retirement as even the retired people influece foreign policies through their think tanks) there will be anti-indian attitude for atleast another 20 years, by which time US would have lost significant powers to others by virtue of their demographica. Really India does not have much to gain from US from now on. It would be waste of our efforts to partner with a declining power, even if we genuinely want to buy some technologies from them. It would be more prudent for us to develop our own defence technologies, even if it means reinventing wheel, and time consuming

abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 29 Dec 2013 15:37

>> But Dept. Of Defence had been sympathetic to indian points of view.

Hardly.

TKiran
BRFite
Posts: 954
Joined: 13 Dec 2009 00:22

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TKiran » 29 Dec 2013 15:49

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> But Dept. Of Defence had been sympathetic to indian points of view.

Hardly.

Then how come State Dept wallas are made to work 24x7 to 'review' during year end holidays?

abhishek_sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9664
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 03:27

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby abhishek_sharma » 29 Dec 2013 15:56

I don't know about this case, but DoD has not been pro-India if you look at the history of last 60 years. In fact, they are big fans of Pakis.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24186
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 29 Dec 2013 16:02

It has always been that in any dispensation, including in India, the External Affairs and Defence departments are at loggerheads most of the time because of conflicting requirements. In the case of the US, it is my opinion that both of them had historically been strongly opposed to India. After the demise of the USSR, things changed and the usual tensions between these two Departments surface in the case of India too

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 16:16

SSridhar wrote:

Shocked them in a surprising way. They were used so far to India meekly following the diktats or insults.


Officials here concede that given New Delhi's past track record, it was never conceived by the American foreign policy makers that India would react to the arrest of its diplomat the manner it did after the December 12 incident.

After all, there had been precedent of Indian envoys and top past and present officials being subject to humiliating and disrespectful treatment during their US visits, mostly at the airports, and there was hardly any protest, they said.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 16:18

DoD usually had the thought of Pak as an ally against Russia (now us against PRC) and weapon sales/influence (ditto here). Talk about irony if DoD is now taking the side of strong India ties.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24186
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 29 Dec 2013 16:27

Karan M wrote: . . . and weapon sales/influence (ditto here).

It sure is an irony. But, on the question of weapon sales, Pakis were always gifted weapons while we pay hard cash and our purchases are huge as well. Dr. Saraswat said last year that that India and the US were already working on 30 defence related projects in such diverse areas as materials, services, manufacturing technologies, advanced communications systems, and low-intensity conflict.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 18:03

SSridharji, on really critical areas where we have sought access - LCA Flight testing, FOPEN radars - we were rebuffed. OTOH, milexercises have been going ahead with vigor (IAF is invited for Red Flag 14 as well). Plus we get some new gear provided we dont insist too hard on ToT - P8I, C17, C130etc.

I guess DoD values the cross training, possibility to influence our security policy, interoperability and possibility of a good market. Pragmatism, after all, much the same drove ties with Pak.
SD is still stuck in civilize the Indians mode with the trafficking, HR of minority etc stuff.

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 29 Dec 2013 18:19

Friendly force with Soviet/Russian equipments. What other better options they have to test their hardware pitted against enemy hardwares plus possibility of influencing the policy etc and recruiting ground for agents, collecting information etc.. They also gave Order of merit to Army Chief without even informing the Govt. and BS also accepted it without informing. What better example can we get of Americans trying to influence all spheres of Governance in India. And they are free to rape our female diplomats. Such is the regime of Congis that has reduced India to deemed Vassal state of Americans.

svenkat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4725
Joined: 19 May 2009 17:23

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svenkat » 29 Dec 2013 18:22

They also gave Order of merit to Army Chief without even informing the Govt. and BS also accepted it without informing.


Chaanakyaji, any link or is it inside information?

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 29 Dec 2013 18:48

^^Why did you accept US award without clearance? Govt asks Army chief

NEW DELHI: The acceptance of a US military award by Army chief Gen Bikram Singh has not gone down well with the defence ministry which has sent a poser to him asking why he received it without government clearance.

The Army chief was conferred with the 'Legion of Merit', the sixth highest American military honour, during his visit to the US from December 2 to 5.


The defence ministry has argued that services chiefs have to have clearance from the government to receive foreign honours.

When contacted for a reaction, Army headquarters here said they were not aware of the issue.

By receiving the honour, Gen Bikram Singh joined the ranks of legendary figures of the Indian Army including Field Marshal KM Kariappa.

The award is given to services chiefs and officers for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding services and achievements.

Gen Singh is the fifth Indian armed forces officer to have received the award after Field Marshal Kariappa and first Indian Chief of Army Staff Gen Rajendra Singhji.

The 'Legion of Merit' decoration is issued both to United States military personnel and to military and political figures of foreign governments.
Last edited by chaanakya on 29 Dec 2013 18:49, edited 1 time in total.

Sagar G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 22 Dec 2009 19:31
Location: Ghar

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 29 Dec 2013 18:48

Karan M wrote:SSridharji, on really critical areas where we have sought access


Exactly like in the Javelin case where they won't share the seeker tech but pitch for the deal based on a "promise" for a JV of a future paper missile.

Amitava
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 87
Joined: 03 Sep 2000 11:31
Location: New Jersey, USA.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amitava » 29 Dec 2013 20:12

I think we are losing focus by concentrating on Bharara et al. This was not a case of over reach by low level officials. If you read the transcript of the daily press briefing that someone posted earlier, http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2013/12/218895.htm#INDIA you'll notice the spokesperson hemming and hawing at every other question; however, one point she was clear about
QUESTION: Was he aware that the arrest was going to take place?
MS. HARF: He was certainly aware, yes, absolutely.


That is Kerry was fully aware the arrest was being planned, and he did not put an end to it, iow the process had his approval. That I think is key to this entire episode. And I wouldn't be surprised if Obama was on board.

Why? that's a different question. I suspect it could another step in continued probing, needling etc. trying to establish the limit to which India can be pushed.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19840
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2013 20:29

Or could be that they thought we were habitual wimps (which we have been for the past 8 years, since the current admin has been in power, US and India both) and so went ahead.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7734
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 29 Dec 2013 20:59

Well, here my two-bit on how this panned out -

1. Case presented to Kerry of 'maid abuse and mistreatment' by an Indian diplomat requesting permission to initiate legal proceedings. The earlier instances in recent past of such cases against Indian Diplomats would have been submitted as evidence along with no known (to us mango-abduls at least) instance of India blowing its lid over the issue. Kerry signs away on it assuming it to be another routine case of Diplomat crossing the line etc.

I'm don't think Kerry knew about the cavity search+lock-up scenario which finally played out.

What needs to be understood and which is the real crux of the issue, is that why did not the State Department deem it fit to consult Indian Consul General or appraise them of the issue presented in front of them.

I think this is where the 'stake' of players in the game came into play - IMO, the whole thing was started by someone like Uzra Zeya who used her office to create the case in the first place and guided the maid around. The media reports clearly show that US Government is otherwise very wary of handing out the T2 and T3 Visas and the applications have a high failure rate - along with the fact that it requires a long time to obtain the same.

The time factor was compressed in case of granting T Visa for Sangeeta Richard as well as T2 and T3 Visa for her husband and children, respectively. And they were then flown out from India with active connivance of US Embassy in India. All this is possible only if someone powerful on the inside was guiding the whole affair - Safe Horizon (the NGO helping the maid) is simply the Cat's Paw in the game. This is an out and out insider game.

And I won't be surprised if this insider presented a very loaded case in front of Kerry and other superiors in the US State Department.

2. Someone like PB saw this as a golden opportunity to get more brownie points - what could have been better than an Indian-American leading the charge against an Indian diplomat to save an Indian maid who has been abused...I mean, even Hollywood could not have come up with a better script. I'm dead sure that before the whole thing was presented to DOJ+PB for action, it was discussed between the main protagonists in the drama and everyone thought they had a real tight case.

3. They erred big time on two accounts - the NYPD turning it into a charade and the action the US Marshal Service - I think more than anything else, this is what got people's goat back in India. And sharply brought focus on the VCCR rules and regulations.

I think the surprise and shock on India's action, and payback, is because everyone thought it was a routine affair. The media is correct in pointing out the earlier cases of pat-down and maid issue with respect to Indian Diplomats not eliciting response from India.

And I fear this would also have gone down the same path but for the arrest and cavity search issue. It went from being official to personal at this point.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 29 Dec 2013 21:47

whoever granted unilateral vast priviledges to US staff in delhi needs to be exposed and shamed. I am sure most of it goes back even to JLN era.

also, it needs to be clearly stated in a XLS which countries got what priviledges and why any difference if it was unilateral in first place? I am sure ghana, brazil or indonesia never got these freebies the US got. I am doubtful if the euro-munnas got all of it - maybe they got some depending on their weight in delhi like france , uk, germany would get the prime rib and others like sweden the off-cuts.http://chestofbooks.com/food/household/ ... cultur.jpg

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8933
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Dec 2013 22:00

abhishek_sharma wrote:I don't know about this case, but DoD has not been pro-India if you look at the history of last 60 years. In fact, they are big fans of Pakis.



You are right they have been pro-Paki. I will say that in the last 10-12 years, US military personnel know very well who have been killing their comrades in the Af-Pak theater. Additionally, US military those who are in the rank of major & colonel, with a career track to be promoted to the Pentagon as general and admiral are in their early 40s and the cold war legacy is slowly fading away. The joint exercises and purchases of US military hardware have made a difference. At the policy level, there are still cold warriors left, but by the end of this decade most of them will be gone. A mutual understanding would be a good thing, but the danger is that the US military-industrial complex is so vast that it may become the East India Company of the 21st century.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3928
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saip » 29 Dec 2013 22:06

Why so much anger against NRIs, PIOs and OCIs even though they are not all same? Now people like Preet Bharara and Bobby Jindal may not belong to any of these categories. They are probably AIDs (Americans of Indian Descent).

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 29 Dec 2013 22:14

yes I am sure they hold neither of the PIO or OCI card and have absolutely no connection like family trips to india. AID is the right 4th bucket for such people.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8933
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Dec 2013 22:15

rohitvats wrote:I think the surprise and shock on India's action, and payback, is because everyone thought it was a routine affair. The media is correct in pointing out the earlier cases of pat-down and maid issue with respect to Indian Diplomats not eliciting response from India.

And I fear this would also have gone down the same path but for the arrest and cavity search issue. It went from being official to personal at this point.


It was "the straw that broke the camel's back" where:

1. US DoS did not respond to MEA about removal of signage at the Indian embassy in Washington where a Times Square type bomber could park a vehicle.
2. Repeated harassment of Indian diplomats in New York over the last few years; and if the DoS really believe that DK is guilty, then why not PNG her which ruins her career posting in any western capital?
3. No signs of reciprocity shown to India's diplomats that are given to US diplomats.
4. The theft of large scale of information from India's missions in the US by the NSA. Things like cloning entire hard drives on computers at Indian missions is sure to have pissed off people in the MEA.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3928
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saip » 29 Dec 2013 22:16

Singha wrote:whoever granted unilateral vast priviledges to US staff in delhi needs to be exposed and shamed. I am sure most of it goes back even to JLN era.

also, it needs to be clearly stated in a XLS which countries got what priviledges and why any difference if it was unilateral in first place? I am sure ghana, brazil or indonesia never got these freebies the US got. I am doubtful if the euro-munnas got all of it - maybe they got some depending on their weight in delhi like france , uk, germany would get the prime rib and others like sweden the off-cuts.http://chestofbooks.com/food/household/ ... cultur.jpg


As someone said it may be because of VVIP culture Indians have. Have you not seen at the Indian airports the long list of people who cannot be frisked (which includes for some unknown reason Robert Vadra)? White man still gets lots of privileges even when he does not ask for it. Colonial mentality? Last year I was at Trichi airport and my flight was some three hours away and when I tried to enter the airport the guy said we can not let you as in as your flight is hours away. So I wait. Five minutes later I see a white man and his family is allowed in without any questions. I knew he was taking the same flight or even a later flight as there were no other flights before mine. Ofcourse that made me boil and I too barge in. This time the guy just looked at my face and let me in.

g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2660
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Dec 2013 22:20

rohitvats wrote:Kerry signs away on it assuming it to be another routine case of Diplomat crossing the line etc.....
I'm don't think Kerry knew about the cavity search+lock-up scenario which finally played out......
What needs to be understood and which is the real crux of the issue, is that why did not the State Department deem it fit to consult Indian Consul General or appraise them of the issue presented in front of them...

Rohitji,
Once again, it is futile to search motives for US action. If Kerry did not know, he is incompetent, should not be a partner and should go. The US budget for intelligence is 67.6 billion for the year 2013. They all knew and if they did not then they are incompetent. They are slapping India and then paying the bit players with money, green card, student visa and scholarships, each time seeing how far they can go. The objective: To have a cowering India in the US orbit as a vassal and fight American wars in Asia to the last Indian. These actions will only increase with the decline of the US and rise of China. To US Pakistan is already lost. India is to become the next Pakistan. Our generals will wear US medals and speak US English. The will have millions of dollars in US accounts and stage US approved coups. Their children will study in US colleges and be totally cut off from the Indian population. The same goes for the Indian political class. That is the goal. The only way to avoid this is swift action against this provocation and other provocations. The example to follow in this case is the Chinese reaction at Belgrade embassy bombing. China those days were much weaker than what they are today. The Indian action against the provocation has been good so far. But I do not have great hopes of this continuing with MMS at the helm. It is good for India to say US is a natural partner to India. Just as India-China bhai-bhai. But it is foolish to actually to believe that.
Gautam
Last edited by g.sarkar on 29 Dec 2013 22:24, edited 1 time in total.

Mort Walker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8933
Joined: 31 May 2004 11:31
Location: The rings around Uranus.

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 29 Dec 2013 22:23

Singha wrote:yes I am sure they hold neither of the PIO or OCI card and have absolutely no connection like family trips to india. AID is the right 4th bucket for such people.


I would characterize these people as SHAID. Self Hating Americans of Indian Descent. There are people who are AID that have a religious Hindu connection to India. For them it is the holy land, like for Jews it is Israel and for Muslims it is Saudi.

chanakyaa
BRFite
Posts: 1408
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 00:09
Location: Hiding in Karakoram

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 29 Dec 2013 22:38

saip wrote:...
As someone said it may be because of VVIP culture Indians have. Have you not seen at the Indian airports the long list of people who cannot be frisked (which includes for some unknown reason Robert Vadra)? White man still gets lots of privileges even when he does not ask for it. Colonial mentality? Last year I was at Trichi airport and my flight was some three hours away and when I tried to enter the airport the guy said we can not let you as in as your flight is hours away. So I wait. Five minutes later I see a white man and his family is allowed in without any questions. I knew he was taking the same flight or even a later flight as there were no other flights before mine. Ofcourse that made me boil and I too barge in. This time the guy just looked at my face and let me in.


I hope you gave "the guy" a mouthful. Hope you did not miss such wonderful opportunity of educating him, or rather asking him, why thinks lowly of himself. I bet most of these people get this job using quotas. When you don't earn it...it is tough to take a pride in one's self..but I'm hypothesizing and seriously OT.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 29 Dec 2013 22:39

Amitava wrote:I think we are losing focus by concentrating on Bharara et al. This was not a case of over reach by low level officials. If you read the transcript of the daily press briefing that someone posted earlier, http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2013/12/218895.htm#INDIA you'll notice the spokesperson hemming and hawing at every other question; however, one point she was clear about
QUESTION: Was he aware that the arrest was going to take place?
MS. HARF: He was certainly aware, yes, absolutely.


That is Kerry was fully aware the arrest was being planned, and he did not put an end to it, iow the process had his approval. That I think is key to this entire episode. And I wouldn't be surprised if Obama was on board.

Why? that's a different question. I suspect it could another step in continued probing, needling etc. trying to establish the limit to which India can be pushed.



Absolutely correct. It takes a while to chase all the furrows in a rabbit hole to eliminate where the rabbit is lurking.

One lurker sent me this take on the episode.
-Its the PIOs in US who are not integrated with American society who are being targeted.

Some thoughts I would like to share on l’affaire DK:

People who see this as a matter of overzealous prosecution or a few bad apples in Foggy Bottom are deluded or subversive or both. There is simply no way this action and the method it was carried out did not have prior approval at the highest levels. The question then is why?

I am almost certain that the repercussions from this action were gamed thoroughly before it was carried out and at least some of the negative fallout was anticipated. The EJ, Mole and Sleeper Husband angles are of course ever present (duh!) but I believe that the primary motivation was to teach DK a lesson and make an example of her to her cohorts. Define these “cohorts” as Indian Citizen/ OCI/ PIO Hindu trans-nationals with one leg in each society and it will start to make sense. The very fact that she was targeted means that she was/ is not compromised. I am certain that they attempted many times to compromise her but she wouldn’t play ball. Why?

Her Weltanschauung is that of a “spoilt brat Baba Log” kid of the Indian establishment, specifically the faction that collaborates with local casteist political forces to milk the system- with great success. She did not need to cut Nirupama like deals with Uncle, her daddy was already loaded and she was his favourite Benami.

Add to this the typically Indian concept of the husband (like Lalu) or father (like Sharadrao/ Kalaignar) or paramour (like MGR/ George Fernandes) of the well-placed woman controlling her every move in public life, and you realize the Himalayan challenge your friendly neighbourhood recruiter is going to face when approaching DK. Arguably recruiters would have fared better had they targeted Khobragade Senior.

So the messages that are being delivered are

1) We don’t mind your being desi but if you’re not our desi then you’re gonna get your
ass whupped!

Being our desi should mean that you convert to Christianity (like Bobby Jindal or Nikki Haley) or
your children should be rabbinically Jewish like Preet Bharara’s (his wife’s mother is
Jewish) or at least be Mischlinge like MMS’s grandchildren (Note to Junior: Marry a
nice Jewish girl just like MN Roy did or BK Nehru did or Amartya Sen did or
Aurobindo almost did. Amrit Singh and Sunny Leone are already spoken for by
Barton Beebe and Daniel Weber).

2) Even if you are already our desi or become one as a result of religious affiliation
(Dinesh D’Souza), inter-marriage (Fareed Zakaria) or groveling (Rajat Gupta) do not
forget that we have put away in a vault all kinds of evidence against you that we will
periodically use to knock you down a few pegs down whenever we feel like it.

In other words, if you play ball you get to chase the American Dream, if you refuse get ready to say hello to the American Nightmare!




Anyway it took a lot of planning and coordination at multiple levels to get DK arrested and violated under diplomatic protocols to give the message that all India will do is fret and fume. The message is to all desi babalog in US to control the Indian elite parents.


Think of this possibility while going after PIOs!

I like SHAID acronnym.

Poor folks are really shaid in massa with na ghar ka na ghatka.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10691
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Dec 2013 22:47

Sagar G wrote: I agree that India must not expect any favour from them and at the same time must not extend any favour to them as well.

Sagar G: Could you please list the favors (I hope you are talking of favors as in "favorable and discriminatory GoI policies") extended and all the parties who benefit from these policies. I will follow you to "Indian Economy" or "Indian Interests" or even "OT" threads.

chanakyaa
BRFite
Posts: 1408
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 00:09
Location: Hiding in Karakoram

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 29 Dec 2013 22:50

whoever granted unilateral vast priviledges to US staff in delhi needs to be exposed and shamed. I am sure most of it goes back even to JLN era....

What bothers me is, why isn't NaMo and BJP not calling a full scale investigation and making it a HUGE media headline topic? Given NaMo's visa ban and such.. I would have expected a full blown scandalous headlines on this topic. If anyone followed the IRS scandal in the US, in which certain tea-party groups were targeted by tax authorities, about 2-3 months ago. The whole investigation was turned into a witch hunt that hurt Democrats badly.

g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2660
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 29 Dec 2013 22:50

http://www.samachar.com/Devyani-Khobrag ... ended_news
Devyani Khobragade case: India sets up special group
"NEW DELHI: With India determined not to relent on its demand for the US to formally apologize on the handcuffing and strip-search of its envoy Devyani Khobragade, a special group of experts, including in international law, would be meeting on Monday to discuss the case.
The US has been quiet on the matter for the past few days on account of most senior officials going on end-of-year leave for Christmas and New Year.
The meeting of the group of experts, set up by foreign secretary Sujatha Singh, is indicative of India's firm resolve to pursue the matter to the end, said sources.
The group would comprise experts in international law, finance, human resource, and international organizations, among others. They would follow up on all Khobragade related developments.
The group would also scrutinize the information on the wages being paid by US diplomats in India to their Indian staff to see if was on par with the US standards.
Khobragade, India's deputy consul general in New York, was arrested for alleged visa fraud and underpaying her nanny Sangeeta Richard — charges she has denied. Khobragade was handcuffed and strip-searched, a development which has caused outrage in India........"
Gautam

JwalaMukhi
BRFite
Posts: 1635
Joined: 28 Mar 2007 18:27

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JwalaMukhi » 29 Dec 2013 23:53

chanakyaa wrote:
whoever granted unilateral vast priviledges to US staff in delhi needs to be exposed and shamed. I am sure most of it goes back even to JLN era....

What bothers me is, why isn't NaMo and BJP not calling a full scale investigation and making it a HUGE media headline topic? Given NaMo's visa ban and such.. I would have expected a full blown scandalous headlines on this topic. If anyone followed the IRS scandal in the US, in which certain tea-party groups were targeted by tax authorities, about 2-3 months ago. The whole investigation was turned into a witch hunt that hurt Democrats badly.


India has to undergo the transformation from being "British Raj 2.0" to actual "India Rule 0.1". There is no short cut. It is during this manthan, many of the one sided privileges granted by both GOI and babucracy is going to be first casualty. But that is the price that needs to be paid, for which there is going to be pain for the movers and shakers (principally even babus) to get adjusted. Well, the choice is clear. How things pans out will determine if the course is being set for "British Raj 3.0" or something more inline with the wishes of general populace. This prism will help understand why politicos are reluctant to make it a big deal. Perhaps they aren't sure whether it is going to be continuation of "British Raj 3.0" that they want or not.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sanjayc and 73 guests