India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 01 Jan 2014 02:34

matrimc: It's important to pick our battles when dealing with the various entities. From my perspective, it makes more sense to take affront at the 'petty and unnecessary' comment when it comes from either the official firmament or a Democrat-affiliated foundation or other source. On the other hand, the Republicans would happily have any avenue to take on the government.

Nitpicking about what someone from Heritage said, is not in our immediate interest. It should be understood in the context of the Republicans' reflexive pro-national security worldview. If we're going to appeal to the Republicans in this matter, we need to calibrate our outrage at such statements depending on who it's coming from.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amitava » 01 Jan 2014 02:34

BijuShet wrote:Is an Indian (SR) employed within the Indian territory (the Indian consulate), is the employment subject to US law ?
Small nitpick: AFAIK, SR was employed in DK's home and DK's home would not be considered part of the Indian Consulate and hence is not Indian Territory.


It's not that simple.

SR was on A3 visa, which is specifically only for attending to or serving someone on A1 or A2 visa.
Any one on an A visa can not simply walk across the street and start working for competition (not that some of them don't :( iow, local employment rules do not apply to them. Do you think someone in SR's shoes would be collecting unemployment insurance payments if it came to it?

AFAIK, actual salary of all Indians on any A visa are actually paid in India in Indian currency, an allowance is paid for local expenses.

Therefore, GoI is perfectly reasonable in arguing that those minimum wage rules should not apply. However, GotUS, as always, behaves as a bully and insists on local wage rules, and would deny A3 visa otherwise.

This creates the scenario for framing foreign diplomats that was described by Amb. Prabhu Dayal.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby member_28369 » 01 Jan 2014 02:37

Singha wrote:If you dont deserve any money from the employer whom you abandoned without notice one fine day, but show up 6 months later and threaten to go to court (with a case) if the employer does not pay you 10k - is that not extortion? her going AWOL had already been informed to the GOTUS but probably efforts to trace her with help of her husband was stonewalled. to help her keep under cover, the husband even filed a missing persons case briefly in delhi but later withdrew it saying she was ok.

10k$ is not pocket change.


I don't think it is 6 months. its more like a month or two. They may have arrived at figure of 10k based on the gap between min pay she is entitled to and the actual pay she received for her services over 7 months. or maybe they didn't - either way I don't care and its no big deal. but it's not extortion.

its maid not turning up for work one fine day. it happens millions of times in India. What is their for IFS to sweat so much about and the continuous pressure to trace her even when it knows the maid left voluntarily. You know what I think intimidation is ? when DK hubby files a case of theft and robbery over paltry $100 well after a month the maid and then fails to follow up the case. And when cases were filed against maid husband in India for blackmail. When an important document such as passport is revoked with such alacrity so early to the case.

I know i am rather cool to plight of DK . i dont grudge her all support GoI is giving her including an international team of experts which is costing taxpayers a pretty penny but personally i am cool to her plight. but contrary to many opinions I believe it is my attitude thats popular among Indian middle class. You are seriously underestimating the anger in India against big bureaucracy and politicians ever since UPA 2 came to power.

Nobody sees DK as a soldier putting her life in line nor is NY seen as kargil. consular officer in NY with a large enough apartment where two rooms can go exclusively to a maid is seen as very cushy career move which probably involved lot of lobbying and bending rules. Such people are expected to have enough sense to be on the right side of law and are believed to take care on their own.

just go through comments in indian newspapers to guage how cool people are about DK. If NaMo is quiet on this case I beleive it is because he realizes there is no big anger to be tapped in to. he is nothing if not pragmatic these days.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Satya_anveshi » 01 Jan 2014 02:46

We also need to be cautious about letting this issue closed in an undesirable way. An undesirable way of closure is before all US missions in India (and around), their activities and personnel posted coming under increasing scrutiny to the point of knowing everything there is to know. Our system needs to gear up to this task and institutional shift should take hold.

This will restore normalcy in operations with respect to US and others as well. A good playbook needs to be developed, reviewed and tested every year.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Mahesh_R » 01 Jan 2014 02:52

adhkiran wrote:but contrary to many opinions I believe it is my attitude thats popular among Indian middle class. You are seriously underestimating the anger in India against big bureaucracy and politicians ever since UPA 2 came to power.

just go through comments in indian newspapers to guage how cool people are about DK. If NaMo is quiet on this case I beleive it is because he realizes there is no big anger to be tapped in to. he is nothing if not pragmatic these days.


Boss ..before commenting i would suggest to read the forum from the day the issue began..i really doubt if you had been silently reading all thru(as u claimed) or just jumped into this topic ...

its not abt UPA or NDA.........please read prev pages all your questions will be answered..i think most of them have lost interest to justify the questions raised by you since these are repetitive questions answered in prev pages...pls go thru...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 01 Jan 2014 03:00

vnmshyam wrote:My friend summed it up best on his facebook page:
"I'm going to India for a few weeks. All these years, whenever I went to India, it felt like I was going home. Now, for the first time, I feel like I'm leaving home to go to India."


The media was used in such a way in the west and US that India was made a far away region. Using media they can keep region which are even near to appear distant. In the last 20 years beginning with 1990 they have done several studies on the global media. But the Indian media has changed from a Indian media to a pretend global media which does not connect the Indians across the world. With the western trained sociologists inside the Indian media for more than 25 years the Indian media is a tool to be used by them on the masses. They can manipulate the opinions of the masses.

Only with the advent of internet the world has become closer.
Unless Indians use alternate channels of media and connectivity (internet)to connect with other Indians inside India and outside India Indians will feel cut away from the other Indians. This quote is a direct result of the media manipulation - "All these years, whenever I went to India, it felt like I was going home. Now, for the first time, I feel like I'm leaving home to go to India"

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby member_28369 » 01 Jan 2014 03:11

g.sarkar wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/report/will-india-agree-to-a-plea-deal-for-devyani-khobragade/20131231.htm
Rediff.com » News » Will India agree to a plea deal for Devyani?
Will India agree to a plea deal for Devyani?

Now, a plea means that Dr. K will have to plead guilty, and avoid a jury trial and agree to a punishment that would be agreed by the judge and lawyers of the two side. A felony conviction will still have an effect on her obtaining a green card in future.
Gautam


I have seen this hand wringing about DK (not SR) GC aspirations not fructifying in more than one article. While a lot here are happy to speculate away on SR's GC aspirations its quiet evident that DK is gaming the system at much higher cost to taxpayers for her GC aspirations. its quiet likely the next move of DK is to apply for a GC and settle down in USA with her family.

Also from what I read here it was not SR intention originally to imigrate to US.
http://cmpaul.wordpress.com/category/sangeeta-richards/
"Meanwhile, in India Khobragade and her influential father IAS officer Uttam Khobragade reportedly pressured Richards’ family through the Delhi police. Richards’ husband and son were reportedly called to the police station six times to pressure her into withdrawing her complaint. The family contacted the Human Rights Law Network in Delhi which filed a petition in the Delhi High Court in July 2012 on behalf of Phillip Richards which asked for repatriation of Sangeeta Richards, an independent inquiry into the case and disciplinary action against Khobragade and her father. The petition also asked the Ministry of External Affairs to set up a grievance redressal mechanism for employees of establishments of the Government outside India.

It is evident from the petition that Sangeeta Richards wished to return to India and was not using the case to immigrate to the US. However, in July the Indian Government cancelled her passport. Further, in September, 2013 Khobragade secured an injunction from Delhi High Court against Richards, restraining her from initiating legal proceedings in USA. In November she also secured a non-bailable warrant against Richards from a metropolitan magistrate’s court.

It is in these circumstances that Richards’ family asked the US Government for visas to go to the USA so that they could testify in court and be protected under the witness protection programme."

The same thing is confirmed here "http://www.indianexpress.com/news/filed-withdrawn-a-petition-that-said-sangeeta-arrested/1209752/" where her husband wanted Sangeeta to be repatriated. Indian court refused to hear him.

While I am not buying 100% this version I am not going to rule this our completely.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 01 Jan 2014 03:50

adhkiran wrote:but contrary to many opinions I believe it is my attitude thats popular among Indian middle class. You are seriously underestimating the anger in India against big bureaucracy and politicians ever since UPA 2 came to power.

just go through comments in indian newspapers to guage how cool people are about DK. If NaMo is quiet on this case I beleive it is because he realizes there is no big anger to be tapped in to. he is nothing if not pragmatic these days.

If all of India was online then perhaps but we know that a very very significant part of India is not online and even amongst those who are online many do not comment. I have been online since 1997 but have commented only once and that too on a pakistani farticle.

You are cool about the mistreatment meted out to our diplomat and that is your choice but please do not make such blanket generalization. NaMo will definitely raise the issue after allowing sufficient time to US and India to come to some sort of resolution.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 01 Jan 2014 04:28

MEA statement on Devyani Khobragade case
IBDA's demands for money, new passport and US visa

IBDA's demands (1 July): On 1 July 2013, a woman claiming to be the IBDA's lawyer told DCG that the IBDA would not go to Court only if: (i) CGI, New York would sign a 566 form authorizing the IBDA to terminate her employment, (ii) change her visa status from a Government visa to a normal visa and (iii) be compensated for 19 hours of work per day. DCG refused to negotiate with her on phone and insisted that the caller first identify herself; the caller disconnected the phone call after this.

Meeting with IBDA (8 July): On 8 July 2013, DCG was called to "Access Immigration", an immigration lawyer's office, to discuss the terms of settlement with the IBDA. DCG accompanied by the Consulate officers{Witness to this conversation} met the IBDA whose demand was for a payment of $ 10,000, grant of an ordinary Indian passport along with whatever immigration relief was required to stay in the US on that ordinary passport. CGI officials conveyed that under no circumstance could she remain in the US without legal authorization and that as per her contract with DCG, she should return to India, after which the matter could be further investigated. She was told that any argument over salary or working hours could be settled in the Consulate before her return to India. The IBDA refused, saying that she wanted to remain in the US.
Richards wanted to return to India that is why she was blackmailing the diplomat for a US Visa.

IBDA's demands conveyed to OFM (2 July): On 2 July 2013, CGI conveyed the above developments to OFM in writing and solicited NYPDs support in ascertaining the identity of the caller and her links with the IBDA, given that the conversations clearly indicated that Ms. Richard had no intention of returning to India and seemed keen to extort money by making false accusations. No action was taken

Extortion complaint filed by DCG with NYPD (5 July): On 5th July, DCG registered a complaint with the NYPD for the crime of "aggravated harassment" with respect to the phone call received on 1t July for extortion and blackmail. No action was taken by NYPD on the request.

Felony/theft ("grand larceny") charge filed against IBDA (8 July): On 8 July, DCG's husband reported to NYPD the theft of cash, blackberry phone, two sim cards, metro card (valued at $113) and documents such as contracts, signed receipt book cum working-hour log by Ms. Sangeeta Richard. No action has been taken on this.
Law is after all not equal for all even in the land of milk and money and American dreams it would seem contrary to the assertion of Uncle Tom.

Passport and ID revoked (8 July): On 8 July, the IBDA's passport was revoked by the Consulate and notice for termination of her Personal ID was also given to OFM wef 22 June 2013. The IBDA was now staying illegally in the US.
Once the consular officials were convinced of the Visa fraud that Richards wanted to commit they revoked her passport. The date of the blackmail demand and the cancellation confirms the sequence of events.
Last edited by pankajs on 01 Jan 2014 04:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Prem » 01 Jan 2014 04:32

http://opiniojuris.org/2013/12/30/india ... olved-icj/
Much of this would turn on whether Khobragade would need U.S. consent to acquire diplomatic status within the U.N. Again, I am far from expert on this but it seems a murky legal issue at best with plausible arguments for both sides based on the U.S./UN Headquarters Agreement and the Convention on Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations.
Sounds like a case for international dispute settlement! It turns out there are mandatory dispute settlement procedures under both agreements. The U.S./UN Headquarters Agreement allows the U.N. to take the U.S. to compulsory arbitration pursuant to Section 21. This would require the U.N. to side with India’s view on Khobrogade’s diplomatic status, but this is hardly impossible or even improbable that they would support a broad view of UN diplomatic rights and immunities.Interestingly, India could also take the U.S. to the ICJ under Article VIII, Section 30 of the Convention on Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations.SECTION 30. All differences arising out of the interpretation or application of the present convention shall be referred to the International Court of Justice, unless in any case it is agreed by the parties to have recourse to another mode of settlement.
Somewhat surprisingly, both India and the U.S. have signed on to the Convention without trying to limit the effect of this provision through a reservation (as China and others have done). Such a reservation may be of little effect anyway, but at least it would be an argument against ICJ jurisdiction. So I think that India could bring an ICJ case seeking a provisional measure guaranteeing Khobragade’s immunity from arrest under Article 11(a).
It is possible the U.S. would simply ignore any ICJ order, but this is not quite the same as the Medellin cases. First of all, it is the federal government rather than the state governments involved here, and the President probably has authority to order federal agents NOT to arrest Khobragade. Furthermore, the U.S. interest here is far weaker than in the Medellin case, which involved individuals who had been convicted of murder. In this case, the U.S. may be upset over allowing an alleged visa-fraudster to walk, but it is of a completely different magnitude than giving a new hearing to a convicted murderer.
In my view, it would be a perfectly legitimate exercise of presidential power to order executive branch officials to refrain from further action in this case. An ICJ provisional measures might provide a clearer justification for the President’s decision, although I think he probably has the authority right now to stop all of this. But the ICJ might provide a face-saving way for both sides to resolve this deeply fractious incident.In any event, it will be interesting to see if India chooses the ICJ route. Or if the US even invites an ICJ resolution of this conflict. Indeed, if India goes to far in its retaliations against US diplomats, the U.S. might take India to the ICJ under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations!The current ICJ even has one Indian judge, and one U.S. judge. One problem for India is that its legal position is hardly flawless, and it could very well fail in the ICJ. But if India thinks it has strong legal arguments (and they do look fairly strong to me), it seems like a textbook case for the ICJ. Indeed, since neither side shows any sign of backing down, I think the ICJ might actually be useful here

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby member_28369 » 01 Jan 2014 05:08

pankajs wrote:You are cool about the mistreatment meted out to our diplomat and that is your choice but please do not make such blanket generalization. NaMo will definitely raise the issue after allowing sufficient time to US and India to come to some sort of resolution.


its really the individual DK rather than diplomat. I understand the issue is about Indian diplomat subjected to insensitive local law treatment with hoi pollai. But in cases such as sexual harrasment, maid treatment etc its really hard not to separate the individual from diplomat. How you treat maid in your home is really nothing to do with diplomacy - its all about how you manage personally these affairs. its not as if DK is being arrested for some offence she committed in her line of job. In addition the victim who is the maid is also an Indian.

In this particular case it appears DK took every step under the guidance of OFM (office of foreign missions) which is exactly why MEA is up in arms and sweating so much about this issue.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby member_28369 » 01 Jan 2014 05:26

pankajs wrote:MEA statement on Devyani Khobragade caseRichards wanted to return to India that is why she was blackmailing the diplomat for a US Visa.


All that you quoted does not take away from the fact that sangeeta husband filed a case in Delhi asking for her reparation to India prior to the drama above. The indian court refused to enterain the plea. I dont know why.

IBDA's demands conveyed to OFM (2 July): On 2 July 2013, CGI conveyed the above developments to OFM in writing and solicited NYPDs support in ascertaining the identity of the caller and her links with the IBDA, given that the conversations clearly indicated that Ms. Richard had no intention of returning to India and seemed keen to extort money by making false accusations. No action was taken


There was no extortion. It was a silly complaint. I am not suprised NYPD took it light.

Extortion complaint filed by DCG with NYPD (5 July): On 5th July, DCG registered a complaint with the NYPD for the crime of "aggravated harassment" with respect to the phone call received on 1t July for extortion and blackmail. No action was taken by NYPD on the request.


Same response as above

Felony/theft ("grand larceny") charge filed against IBDA (8 July): On 8 July, DCG's husband reported to NYPD the theft of cash, blackberry phone, two sim cards, metro card (valued at $113) and documents such as contracts, signed receipt book cum working-hour log by Ms. Sangeeta Richard. No action has been taken on this. Law is after all not equal for all even in the land of milk and money and American dreams it would seem contrary to the assertion of Uncle Tom.


You are required to show itemized stolen list exceeding 1k for grand larceny - all he had is 113. DK husband backed out when NYPD mentioned it. MEA here is being economical with truth.

Passport and ID revoked (8 July): On 8 July, the IBDA's passport was revoked by the Consulate and notice for termination of her Personal ID was also given to OFM wef 22 June 2013. The IBDA was now staying illegally in the US. Once the consular officials were convinced of the Visa fraud that Richards wanted to commit they revoked her passport. The date of the blackmail demand and the cancellation confirms the sequence of events.


i understand revoking it is legit. But the swiftness is harsh and I doubt CG did all the due diliginece before taking it.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Jan 2014 05:34

adhkiran wrote:The same thing is confirmed here "http://www.indianexpress.com/news/filed-withdrawn-a-petition-that-said-sangeeta-arrested/1209752/" where her husband wanted Sangeeta to be repatriated. Indian court refused to hear him.

While I am not buying 100% this version I am not going to rule this our completely.


"The court refused to hear him" is false. On page 179 of this thread you can see the court order, or the link below may work.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6025&p=1565211&hilit=Hima#p1565211

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 01 Jan 2014 05:41

adhkiran wrote:
pankajs wrote:You are cool about the mistreatment meted out to our diplomat and that is your choice but please do not make such blanket generalization. NaMo will definitely raise the issue after allowing sufficient time to US and India to come to some sort of resolution.


its really the individual DK rather than diplomat. I understand the issue is about Indian diplomat subjected to insensitive local law treatment with hoi pollai. But in cases such as sexual harrasment, maid treatment etc its really hard not to separate the individual from diplomat. How you treat maid in your home is really nothing to do with diplomacy - its all about how you manage personally these affairs. its not as if DK is being arrested for some offence she committed in her line of job. In addition the victim who is the maid is also an Indian.

In this particular case it appears DK took [u]every step under the guidance of OFM (office of foreign missions) which is exactly why MEA is up in arms and sweating so much about this issue[/b].
Vienna convention is quite clear on treatment of a consular official. US ignored that to claim primacy of local law BS. Please read the discussion on the previous pages.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby member_28369 » 01 Jan 2014 05:48

A_Gupta wrote:
adhkiran wrote:The same thing is confirmed here "http://www.indianexpress.com/news/filed-withdrawn-a-petition-that-said-sangeeta-arrested/1209752/" where her husband wanted Sangeeta to be repatriated. Indian court refused to hear him.

While I am not buying 100% this version I am not going to rule this our completely.


"The court refused to hear him" is false. On page 179 of this thread you can see the court order, or the link below may work.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6025&p=1565211&hilit=Hima#p1565211


Good info. i did not know judgements are available online and there is easy means to access them- thanks.
Anyway the fact they filed for reparation demonstrates an intent to come back to india. thats what we are discussing here - the intent. Why did they withdraw cases ? i dont know - maybe they got a hint it won't go well based on some technicalities.

but we need to give a fair chance to maid version too. many are super keen to tarnish a citizen, a mother of two children as visa seeking manipulator.

one more curious thing when I went to website i saw $51 mentioned below. Why would an indian court mention amount in USD ? are we taking americanization to a different level or is it something else ?
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Reason: User banned for trolling

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Jan 2014 05:49

pankajs wrote:MEA statement on Devyani Khobragade case
IBDA's demands for money, new passport and US visa


Meeting with IBDA (8 July): On 8 July 2013, DCG was called to "Access Immigration", an immigration lawyer's office, to discuss the terms of settlement with the IBDA.


I wonder if it is this "Access Immigration"?
http://www.bbb.org/new-york-city/busine ... ny-132613/

PS: http://www.manta.com/c/mx31ghw/access-i ... ulting-inc
Access Immigration Consulting Inc

PPS: or is it this?
http://www.nycompaniesindex.com/access- ... inc-1nltg/



A privately held company in New York, NY.

Categorized under Business Consultants, our records show it was established in 2011 and incorporated in New York, current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of $51,000 and employs a staff of approximately 1.
Last edited by A_Gupta on 01 Jan 2014 05:54, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 01 Jan 2014 05:50

adhkiran wrote:
pankajs wrote:MEA statement on Devyani Khobragade caseRichards wanted to return to India that is why she was blackmailing the diplomat for a US Visa.


All that you quoted does not take away from the fact that sangeeta husband filed a case in Delhi asking for her reparation to India prior to the drama above. The indian court refused to enterain the plea. I dont know why.

I see that A_Gupta saar has replied to this.

adhkiran wrote:It is evident from the petition that Sangeeta Richards wished to return to India and was not using the case to immigrate to the US. However, in July the Indian Government cancelled her passport.

Richards clearly stated before witnesses that she wanted to stay in US. Only following her attempt to blackmail the diplomat into committing a Visa Fraud did the MEA cancel her passport. MEA's timelines are quite clear on that.

That there was extortion and blackmail attempt is quite clear from the MEA timelines and that happened infront of witnesses. NYPD/US DOJ played a very partisan role in listening to one side and consistently ignoring the complain of the other side. So much for US law is equal for rich and the poor.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 01 Jan 2014 05:51

adhkiran wrote:While a lot here are happy to speculate away on SR's GC aspirations its quiet evident that DK is gaming the system at much higher cost to taxpayers for her GC aspirations. its quiet likely the next move of DK is to apply for a GC and settle down in USA with her family.


err....what...come again?

Its pretty clear why SR would game the system as many are alleging to get a green card and the USCIS sees 1000s of such cases every year. DK is married to a US citizen...to get her GC all she needs to do is apply and she will get it in 4-6 months as her GC category is always current. Now can you explain why DK needs to enact all this drama with SR to get her own GC and where is Indian tax payer money involved in all this? I know GCs can be obtained thru employers but never knew GCs could be obtained thru employees!

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 01 Jan 2014 05:53

adhkiran wrote:but we need to give a fair chance to maid version too. many are super keen to tarnish a citizen, a mother of two children as visa seeking manipulator.

one more curious thing when I went to website i saw $51 mentioned below. Why would an indian court mention amount in USD ? are we taking americanization to a different level or is it something else ?
Did NYPD and US DOJ give the diplomat a fair hearing after all she is also a mother of two children? It seems the diplomats side of story was totally ignored. Is that fair and just?

In fact I would go to the extent of saying poor Dr. Devyani only had the MEA backing her where as Richards had the whole US government backing her?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2014 06:01

Satya you might be on to something about the Kerry angle..

Suraj is right Lisa Curt is provides wedge in US stance.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2014 06:04

adhikaran your stance is you want DK punished by others for some India related issues.

That's Mir Jaffer stand.

Reflect on whether you wantt to be on the forum.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby anmol » 01 Jan 2014 06:17

(From the article Jhujar ji posted)

José Ernesto Medellín (March 4, 1975 – August 5, 2008), born in Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas, was a Mexican national who was executed for the murder of Jennifer Ertman and Elizabeth Peña in Texas in the United States.

Medellín was convicted of raping and killing 16-year-old Elizabeth Peña and 14-year-old Jennifer Ertman in June 1993.[1]

His case gained notoriety when Mexico sued the United States in the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on behalf of 51 Mexican nationals asserting that, in these cases, the US had violated the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, which requires that local authorities inform foreign nationals being held on criminal charges of their right to consult with their country’s diplomats. That court ruled that the United States was obliged to have the defendants’ cases reopened and reconsidered. The Supreme Court of the United States agreed to hear the case on May 1, 2007.[2]

The Bush administration briefed the Supreme Court on the obligation to comply with international treaties. On March 25, 2008 in Medellín v. Texas, the US Supreme Court rejected the Bush administration's arguments and cleared the way for Texas to execute the sentence.[3] The ICJ subsequently ruled that the United States had violated its treaty obligations.[4]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medell%C3%ADn_v._Texas

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Kakkaji
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 01 Jan 2014 06:51

I think the GOI responsibility is to make sure that DK is treated with the dignity due to a diplomat, that she is not arrested again, that the charges against her are dropped, and that she be allowed to return to India. Simultaneously, a US diplomat in India (most appropriately the one who bought the air tickets for the Richards family) should be declared PNG and expelled from India at the same time that DK returns to India.

Beyond this, if DK wishes to return to the US in future in a personal capacity, it is not the responsibility of the GOI to facilitate that. Nor can she be guaranteed a lifelong posting in the UN mission in New York to facilitate her to be near her US citizen husband, because that would be unfair to others in IFS that may be in line for that posting. An IFS officer cannot be guaranteed a posting in any country, they have to be ready to serve anywhere in the world. DK's posting in the UN mission in NY should only be to cover her with immunity until the current mess can be sorted out.

And the whole system of getting maids, cooks, servants etc. from India needs to be junked, or else there will be more such cases in future. Unskilled labour from India will always have the great temptation to jump visa and go AWOL. There is no way to stop it.

I also don't believe the maid was abused or anything like that. IFS folks are highly educated and trained. There may be bad apples among them, but 3 cases of them in the NY mission abusing their maids within 2 years is impossible. The maid could have complained to other consular officers that lived within the same consulate premises. It is all a visa jumping racket, which is exactly why this practice of importing maids from India needs to be stopped by order of the MEA.

And all unilateral priviledges granted to foreign ciplomats in India should be stopped forthwith. It should be strict reciprocity in these matters.

JMT

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 01 Jan 2014 07:07


putnanja
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 01 Jan 2014 07:12

Not handled with care Hardeep S Puri

...
Relations between the US and India are far too important to be jeopardised by any one single act, set of incidents or misguided individual. It is unlikely, however, given the widespread attention that the mistreatment of the Indian diplomat has received in India, that this can be done without the dignity of the person in question being restored.

There are also important lessons for those who are easily impressed by the US espousal of and insistence on human rights. Clearly, the US may need to undertake some introspection. It based its approach to visa, in respect of the BJP's prime ministerial candidate, on allegations that have now turned out to be based on fabrication of evidence and a litany of lies. The clean chit from the Indian judicial system should at the very least result in some introspection.

Nothing serves to demonstrate our desire for the best of relations with the US more than our response to the Snowden affair. Contrast this with the reaction of Brazil and the picture is complete. In similarly placed circumstances, for us, it was business-as-usual. The Brazilians took the unprecedented step of President Dilma Rousseff calling off her visit to Washington, the only state visit scheduled by the US for 2013. Boeing also lost a $4 billion military deal on account of the Snowden revelations.

The day after Devyani Khobragade was subjected to unprecedented humiliation, a colleague called to relate the story of Sergei Lavrov, long-serving Russian permanent representative to the UN in New York and now Russian foreign minister. His official car was towed away by the New York traffic police. It required one telephone call to Moscow. After six American cars went missing, Lavrov got his car back with a note of apology.


Interpretations of the Vienna Conventions are best left to lawyers who, for an attractive amount, could make out an equally compelling case on both sides.

"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,/ But in ourselves, that we are underlings."

The writer, a retired diplomat, was India's permanent representative to the UN.


Unfortunately, we will never learn from even Brazil, leave alone Russia! :roll:

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 01 Jan 2014 07:20

Bharara apprised of DK case only days before arrest - Narayan Lakshman, The Hindu
Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara was made aware of the details of the Devyani Khobragade case only days ahead of the Indian Deputy Consul General's arrest on December 12, it has emerged, contrary to media reports suggesting that he had pursued this case from the start to fulfil “political ambitions.”

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby A_Gupta » 01 Jan 2014 07:24

SSridhar wrote:Bharara apprised of DK case only days before arrest - Narayan Lakshman, The Hindu
Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara was made aware of the details of the Devyani Khobragade case only days ahead of the Indian Deputy Consul General's arrest on December 12, it has emerged, contrary to media reports suggesting that he had pursued this case from the start to fulfil “political ambitions.”


Everybody in CYA mode.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 01 Jan 2014 07:26

DK Issue: India Awaiting US Interagency Review Outcome - Sandeep Dikshit, The Hindu
India on Tuesday ignored U.S. Ambassador Nancy Powell’s expression of regret for the manner in which diplomat Devyani Khobragade was arrested in New York and said it was more keen on the promised “authorised response’’ from Washington after it completes an inter-agency review of the episode.

Simultaneously, India is setting up a group of experts to examine information sought from the U.S. consulate here on pay and allowances to its Indian employees as well as details about whether establishments running on diplomatic premises were catering to non-consular staff as well.

India also dismissed reports suggesting that the U.S. was steadfast in pursuing the visa fraud case.

“In a pluralist democracy, various channels operate simultaneously and may have different views.

“We will go by what the State Department is communicating,’’ said External Affairs Ministry spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin.

“They have indicated a process is on and we are awaiting the outcome of that process. They have not communicated that the process is complete,’’ he added.

The U.S. Ambassador here and the U.S. State Department have said Washington did not want the incident to negatively impact bilateral ties. “We had some good conversations with our Indian counterparts. What we’re doing right now is letting that process play itself out and focusing from our end on moving the relationship forward,’’ noted State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf.


Nancy Powell did not issue a regret for the manner of arrest or (mis)treatment of DK. She expressed regret for the 'circumstances' of DK's arrest which might even mean that she regretted DK's supposed visa fraud and human trafficking that led to her arrest. This is how I see it. We should not be anxious to see some positive development in the US attitude and therefore mis-interpret a statement. This case demands an open apology, not implied or vague.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2014 07:43


Nice article bit begs the question how was the US embassy alowed to run a store and other things?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 01 Jan 2014 07:56


Two important point for internal corrections:
  • US embassy in New Delhi appeared to have become a victim to India’s VIP culture.
  • In real life, properties that are appropriated immorally — even if legally — are rarely restituted.

- Change the culture .. ['d focus post 2014ish - regarding new decentralized view of the world and multi-lateralism, still federated on matters of national security]
- Freedom and restructuring of real estate and property laws to include what rightful ownership is.
- Better planned cities and structures so that such issues does not arise
*policy
*city planning
*democratic rights

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 01 Jan 2014 08:33

DK Issue: India Awaiting US Interagency Review Outcome - Sandeep Dikshit, The Hindu
India on Tuesday ignored U.S. Ambassador Nancy Powell’s expression of regret for the manner in which diplomat Devyani Khobragade was arrested in New York and said it was more keen on the promised “authorised response’’ from Washington after it completes an inter-agency review of the episode.

Simultaneously, India is setting up a group of experts to examine information sought from the U.S. consulate here on pay and allowances to its Indian employees as well as details about whether establishments running on diplomatic premises were catering to non-consular staff as well.

India also dismissed reports suggesting that the U.S. was steadfast in pursuing the visa fraud case.

“In a pluralist democracy, various channels operate simultaneously and may have different views.

“We will go by what the State Department is communicating,’’ said External Affairs Ministry spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin.

“They have indicated a process is on and we are awaiting the outcome of that process. They have not communicated that the process is complete,’’ he added.

The U.S. Ambassador here and the U.S. State Department have said Washington did not want the incident to negatively impact bilateral ties. “We had some good conversations with our Indian counterparts. What we’re doing right now is letting that process play itself out and focusing from our end on moving the relationship forward,’’ noted State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf.




It seems like some people either just don't understand how the legal system work in the US or choose to completely ignore as if assuming it should work the way things work in India. The way DK case has been come out in public, brought by a high profile NY district attorney, it is fair to assume that they have thought all possible retaliatory measures by India; thus to ensure that they don't have to take the charges back. The only way the negotiations are possible is by negotiating sentencing, not the validity of charges. THEY HAVE THOUGHT ThROUGH THIS BEFORE BEFORE FILING THE CASE. Amazing such news articles are allowed to be published and entertained by giving legitimacy to their claims or people making such claims.

ramana
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2014 08:54

Most likely the charges won't be not pressed on the court day. The diplomatic point hash as been made.

SSridhar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 01 Jan 2014 09:01


So, for all their sniggering of Indian VIP culture, the Americans followed exactly the same in New Delhi as the new-age Viceroys from the Empire.

chanakyaa
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 01 Jan 2014 09:03

Ramanaji, the charges are already made by arresting DK. How is it possible to not press charges after arresting a person? The law doesn't work that way, at least DAs don't work that way. Are you suggesting that DA will willfully weaken its case, thus Bharara, someone allegedly eyeing a public office, making a fool of himself? Same person who prosecuted one of the most powerful Wall Street firm, SAC? Not sure what is meant by DA not pressing a charges when they already arrested her under certain grounds and making public the charges. Unless I'm missing some legal perspective here.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 01 Jan 2014 09:15

At this point of time, it is difficult to make any conclusion based on statements and tidbits emanating from the US and Indian officials. The US will be only expected to take a maximalist position because of the strong retaliation it is facing from India over its arrogant action. The back-channel diplomacy that is on must be arriving at a contour for a solution because this incident will certainly be a setback to the relationship and neither country would want it that way. Yes, even the US, for all its bluster, would not like such a situation though one must now admit that whatever has happened would have already set the clock back which is going to be immensely difficult to retrieve.

BTW, it is my understanding that the charges are not yet framed in a US court of law. The pre-trial proceedings should lead to that, I suppose.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 Jan 2014 09:32

I still don't get why we ran forward like good l'il children and announced the follow on purchase of 6 C-130s while this mess was going on. Buy them by all means, but could have waited till the issue was resolved. Brazil seems to understand how to do diplomacy better than the dilli crowd

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 01 Jan 2014 09:44

BTW, it is my understanding that the charges are not yet framed in a US court of law. The pre-trial proceedings should lead to that, I suppose.


US vs Khobragade case is on Justice website..
http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/December13/KhobragadeArrestPR/Khobragade,%20Devyani%20Complaint.pdf

The case is U.S. v. Khobragade, 13-mj-02870, U.S. District Court, Southern District of New York (Manhattan)

Khobragade in violation of,

    18 U.S. CODE § 1001 — Makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation and
    18 U.S. CODE § 1546 - FRAUD AND MISUSE OF VISAS, PERMITS, AND OTHER DOCUMENTS

The charges are clearly outlined in the PDF document mentioned above on US Justice website.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vic » 01 Jan 2014 09:48

Karan M wrote:I still don't get why we ran forward like good l'il children and announced the follow on purchase of 6 C-130s while this mess was going on. Buy them by all means, but could have waited till the issue was resolved. Brazil seems to understand how to do diplomacy better than the dilli crowd


Giving Rs 4000 crore gift for raping an Indian diplomat shows how deeply USA has peneterated (pun intended) top leadership of India

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 01 Jan 2014 09:52

chanakyaa wrote:
BTW, it is my understanding that the charges are not yet framed in a US court of law. The pre-trial proceedings should lead to that, I suppose.
US vs Khobragade case is on Justice website..
http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pressreleases/December13/KhobragadeArrestPR/Khobragade,%20Devyani%20Complaint.pdf
. . . .
The charges are clearly outlined in the PDF document mentioned above on US Justice website.

That is what the prosecutorial DA says, but, has the court accepted the charges and told the accused that these are the charges for which she would stand trial ? Only when that happens could one say that the charges have been 'framed'.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Satya_anveshi » 01 Jan 2014 09:54

Having noted some reaction from US commentators on Indian reciprocal action of removing special (and unnecessary) privileges extended to US missions/personnel, and those reactions include how this might jeopardize the security of Indian missions elsewhere (Afghanistan for example). I read this as suggesting a threat from US to India.

US also should note that world over people are aware of US vulnerabilities particularly to events as happened on 911. Finance, Energy (and therefore Transportation) form the backbone of US economy and every other industry is heavily dependent on these. Any disruption to these will impact the economy very quickly and from there to jobs to housing...and you name it. The pyramid will begin to collapse very soon. Last time it happened, it took more than $8T (and counting) to dig out of it.

If US continues down this path of threatening even good allies who stood by it steadfastly, it will find it hard to bring allies on board next time 911 type events come to pass. It will do good if those commentators reflect on all that is involved before displaying their bravado.


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