India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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vasu raya
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 01 Jan 2014 22:37

Cosmo_R, Bade, maybe what I meant didn't come out unambiguously, we still want Apache, C-17 etc., the stuff listed above aren't critical IMHO but MMS or we for the most part do not make choices when hit by embedded marketing like joint exercises, lets keep it transactional like everybody is realizing now.

chanakyaa
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 01 Jan 2014 22:53

BRfites,
Those who are getting impatient,this is not a T20 match.....


What the F^%%#@.. I bot the tickets thinking it is a T20 match. Crap..it is a test series. I hate test matches. Can I get my money back?

Vayutuvan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Jan 2014 22:56

Bade wrote: We should not make this a political spectacle for electoral gains. There are many other internal issues which can be played for that, IMO.

+1 I respect CM Modi for that.

Bade: in US too there are people like J. Carter who from time break ranks and are usually roundly criticized. Or that Pakistani pasand Giuda.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby srin » 01 Jan 2014 22:59

It is not about reaction, it is about self-interest.

Is it in our interest to cancel GE F-414 or even GE F-404's ? It can't be nothing and it can't be everything either. Figure out the balance where we can cause maximum pain without losing out on our national interest.

There is a legal way to fight this. If DK is immune, then this should be played around in the US justice system. And if she wins, sue the pants off PB and the SD cronies.

At the same time, a message should be given that US diplomats are fair game too *if* they step across the bounds. Where are all the sting operators when you really need them ?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kati » 01 Jan 2014 23:05

One BJP guy has just mentioned that it is too early to make noise over the DK issue.
Right now they are just watching the situation closely since GoI is doing everything possible. making noise too much won't make much sense for BJP except making GuBo
more cautious on the matter. If DK gets the stick then it'll be a win-win situation for
BJP. Also, if necessary, BJP can raise the tempo just a month before the election to
gain mileage out of it.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Jan 2014 23:09

On another note

Did anybody watch Farid Zakaria's GPS - India at crossroads? Looks like he is becoming a little more balanced which is good turn of events. If he becomes more nuanced he can go far both in his profession or as a politico. IMHO and all that.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Lilo » 01 Jan 2014 23:10

Bade wrote:What is this additional evidence against DK being quoted in the media without further elaboration ? Has it been reported anywhere ?

There is an outside chance that DK is already a GC holder (she has been married to her US citizen husband for more than 5 years) and on track already to be a US citizen in the eyes of the US. Is that complicating the case for her and explains why she was targeted in this manner..


Sir ji,
What do you imply by the bolded?

Do you think just because Massaland(or any other “exeptional” OECD cuntry for that matter) in its infinite munificense is willing to bestow a green card and then a citizenship on a turd world Indian Diplomat posted in massaland he/she will be ready to stoop low and collect the drippings from massa table - while simultaneously repudiating all her beliefs and honor as a bonafide representative of India in a foreign cuntry?

If you really think so, you sir are living in cloud cuckoo land or worse maliciouly implying that given a chance serving Indian diplomats will jumpship during their foreign postings.
I can onlee imagine one cause - too much exposure to braindead itivity / yumbeeyagiri types jumping through hoops all for the sake of a massa greencard and too litte exposure to citizens of India serving their motherland?

Mortwalker ji also infamously suggested the greencard hypothesis on this thread... you are now the third including that adhkiran guy.
Last edited by Lilo on 01 Jan 2014 23:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Jan 2014 23:12

srin wrote:It is not about reaction, it is about self-interest.

Is it in our interest to cancel GE F-414 or even GE F-404's ? It can't be nothing and it can't be everything either. Figure out the balance where we can cause maximum pain without losing out on our national interest....

At the same time, a message should be given that US diplomats are fair game too *if* they step across the bounds. Where are all the sting operators when you really need them ?


FWIW, I think canceling the GE F series deals will kill the LCA by delaying it. I don't think the IAF would see that as a desirable course of action. After so many years of trialling different power plant mfrs, I would guess that EJ2000 is not a plug and play device that would be compatible with all the frozen designs on the LCA Mk1 and Mk2.

Some other considerations, you don't want unkil to lose interest in the arms sales sphere: a couple of phone calls to Netanyahu will ensure that Israeli stuff stops too.

As to the sting operators, no need for them. The violations by the USE in ND are completely in the open. There simply was not will to enforce Indian laws and reciprocity.

There is enough there to hoist the DoS and DoJ by their own petards including minimum wage violations, tax evasion and visa violations. On that subject, there is no need to confound the issue by bringing up the gay rights thing which will completely change the public discourse.

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold. There is a lot on the menu. It all depends on the appetite.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby srin » 01 Jan 2014 23:17

Cosmo_R wrote:
srin wrote:It is not about reaction, it is about self-interest.

Is it in our interest to cancel GE F-414 or even GE F-404's ? It can't be nothing and it can't be everything either. Figure out the balance where we can cause maximum pain without losing out on our national interest....

At the same time, a message should be given that US diplomats are fair game too *if* they step across the bounds. Where are all the sting operators when you really need them ?


FWIW, I think canceling the GE F series deals will kill the LCA by delaying it. I don't think the IAF would see that as a desirable course of action. After so many years of trialling different power plant mfrs, I would guess that EJ2000 is not a plug and play device that would be compatible with all the frozen designs on the LCA Mk1 and Mk2.

Some other considerations, you don't want unkil to lose interest in the arms sales sphere: a couple of phone calls to Netanyahu will ensure that Israeli stuff stops too.

As to the sting operators, no need for them. The violations by the USE in ND are completely in the open. There simply was not will to enforce Indian laws and reciprocity.

There is enough there to hoist the DoS and DoJ by their own petards including minimum wage violations, tax evasion and visa violations. On that subject, there is no need to confound the issue by bringing up the gay rights thing which will completely change the public discourse.

Revenge is a dish best eaten cold. There is a lot on the menu. It all depends on the appetite.


Precisely - no point in being so _openly_ vengeful that it hurts us, than it hurts US. We need our LCA, and we need our C-17. So we keep them.
At the same time, how do you send a message across that it echoes resoundingly but keep their hands tied ? A sting op where a US official is caught with pants down would be a really helpful.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 01 Jan 2014 23:25

if today Brazil says we will go with SH, what would be US's reaction? we fear reacting because we calibrate it as overreaction

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 01 Jan 2014 23:31

You are trying to pull hair when guy is bald :)

We should buy only that stuff which we can't buy or develop ourself in long run. All existing purchases and their follow on order should be bought.

Chinook - can't fly high enough, and its vulnerability was seen in Afg. (BUY)

M777 - can be addressed by new type mini UAVs (KILL)

Javelin - no TOT being offered (KILL)

N. reactors - tariff is not sustainable (KILL)

Apache (KILL)

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sraj » 01 Jan 2014 23:34

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2531363/

Double-standards-Indian-employees-US-missions-claim-paid-pittance

While the starting salary for a US mission official is about $31,000 (Rs 19.2 lakh) per year plus allowances, it can go up to $151,000 (Rs 93.4 lakh) for a diplomat and $199,000 (Rs 1.23 crore) for the Ambassador, besides allowances.

The salary for the Indian Ambassador to the US, on the other hand, hovers around an approximate $8,000 (Rs 4.94 lakh). {-- so 25:1 ratio for US Ambassador's salary versus Indian Ambassador's salary}

Sample this: an employee of the US Embassy sent in his salary slip to this newspaper.

As a visa officer, the employee said he earned Rs 17,000 per month, a far cry from the Rs 1.55 lakh ($2,500) his American counterpart made, exclusive of allowances and a free house. {-- this is around one-tenth}

In India, US diplomats even get a 20 per cent hardship allowance, which goes up to 25 per cent for their consulate in Kolkata.

One security guard gets Rs 8,000 per month for an eight-hour daily shift {-- assuming 40 hours per week, no overtime, this works out to 70 cents per hour over 52 weeks}, which is way below what's specified in the [Indian Minimum Wages] Act.


MEA needs to manage the PR aspect of this issue as well.
More headlines which resonate internationally will help.
Such as:

"Equal Pay for Equal Work at US Embassy? -- Indians earn less than one-tenth of what Americans earn for same work"
"Devyani arrested for allegedly paying $3.31 per hour, but US Ambassador only pays domestic help 70 cents per hour"
"US Ambassador earns 25 times Indian Ambassador but pays Indians one-fifth of what they allege Devyani paid her nanny"

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 01 Jan 2014 23:40

Lilo, it is not what she thinks as an Indian citizen. It is what massa thinks that I worry about in this case. Maybe Mort was referring to that too, though not sure. If marrying a US citizen does not preclude you from representing India in the US, then having a GC does not either. She must have traveled to the US in her personal capacity before this posting. I would not be surprised if she was a GC holder already by marriage long before this posting came about.

I do not see how this is sounding malicious to you, as she could not have foreseen a US posting many years ago when she married a US citizen which perhaps resulted in a GC status within 2 years for her. She has kids who are perhaps US citizens too (unless they were born in India) so it is a natural thing to do.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby srin » 01 Jan 2014 23:41

I think a lot of deals under negotiation will be in trouble anyway. Files can go temporarily missing, an internal enquiry can be ordered for just about anything, our Leftists can suddenly make noise and Govt can pretend to lose spine ...

Arresting a babu is just about the worst thing that you can do. The institutional memory is rather long.

Pity, I really wanted to see those M-777's in Indian service.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 01 Jan 2014 23:43

RKumar, as long as there is overlap on KILL deals, no sweat :)

can we manage the Longbow radar? anyways, it only takes one critical button to be pushed like the LCA engine for us to wag tails, talk about leverage, but then as long as EJ-2000 is there they would't really press it for 'petty' reasons, which is why alternatives however suboptimal should be thought of be it tech or tactics or vendors

FMS is a single vendor situation.

Ironically plan B seems to be what the Chinese are doing while facing a defense embargo from US, and here's the cropper we are the 5th prominent victim of NSA

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 02 Jan 2014 00:34

sraj wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2531363/

Double-standards-Indian-employees-US-missions-claim-paid-pittance

While the starting salary for a US mission official is about $31,000 (Rs 19.2 lakh) per year plus allowances, it can go up to $151,000 (Rs 93.4 lakh) for a diplomat and $199,000 (Rs 1.23 crore) for the Ambassador, besides allowances.

The salary for the Indian Ambassador to the US, on the other hand, hovers around an approximate $8,000 (Rs 4.94 lakh). {-- so 25:1 ratio for US Ambassador's salary versus Indian Ambassador's salary}

Sample this: an employee of the US Embassy sent in his salary slip to this newspaper.

As a visa officer, the employee said he earned Rs 17,000 per month, a far cry from the Rs 1.55 lakh ($2,500) his American counterpart made, exclusive of allowances and a free house. {-- this is around one-tenth}

In India, US diplomats even get a 20 per cent hardship allowance, which goes up to 25 per cent for their consulate in Kolkata.

One security guard gets Rs 8,000 per month for an eight-hour daily shift {-- assuming 40 hours per week, no overtime, this works out to 70 cents per hour over 52 weeks}, which is way below what's specified in the [Indian Minimum Wages] Act.


MEA needs to manage the PR aspect of this issue as well.
More headlines which resonate internationally will help.
Such as:

"Equal Pay for Equal Work at US Embassy? -- Indians earn less than one-tenth of what Americans earn for same work"
"Devyani arrested for allegedly paying $3.31 per hour, but US Ambassador only pays domestic help 70 cents per hour"
"US Ambassador earns 25 times Indian Ambassador but pays Indians one-fifth of what they allege Devyani paid her nanny"

Ok. So which Indian laws civil and/or criminal laws were broken? Can someone throw in IPC numbers please? I'm not very knowledgeable...so just trying to understand.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Lilo » 02 Jan 2014 00:47

Bade wrote:Lilo, it is not what she thinks as an Indian citizen. It is what massa thinks that I worry about in this case. Maybe Mort was referring to that too, though not sure. If marrying a US citizen does not preclude you from representing India in the US, then having a GC does not either. She must have traveled to the US in her personal capacity before this posting. I would not be surprised if she was a GC holder already by marriage long before this posting came about.

I do not see how this is sounding malicious to you, as she could not have foreseen a US posting many years ago when she married a US citizen which perhaps resulted in a GC status within 2 years for her. She has kids who are perhaps US citizens too (unless they were born in India) so it is a natural thing to do.


Bade ji,
You are again making a big jump from a minor issue of marrying a PIO (with proper prior intimation /clearence to govt of India, the husband in this case happens to have massa citizenship - and who seems to behave (sufficiently benign for me) as a “citizen of the world” as is chic these days - and who is not employed by US govt in any official capacity but whose services were used by Indian Govt to establish and popularize Indian wines from Maha region abroad) to DK applying for a citizenship of a foreign cuntry (i.e in effect changing allegiance from India to Massaland). Thats a logical leap across grand canyon right there.

Take the example of current Indian Ambassador who has just been posted to US he too has a son who is a massa citizen and infact rubs shoulders with counterparts in Atlanticist thinktanks. His current wife is a japanese. So why do you think MEA again posted him in massaland (he already had a previous stint as an Ambassodor to Massa) in middle of a diplomatic shitstorm?
It is onlee because GOI believes that he is an experienced massa hand and as any other Indian Diplomat in service (just like DK) has foremost allegiance to Indian interests than any other foreign cuntry.

Again regarding the “natural thing” of ”hubby massa citizen kids probably massa citizens, so homemaker massa citizen” letme reiterate that DK is a different breed to the average footloose greencard in sights “edumacated” ITvity or Yumbeeya types tagging along with their families.
If she was not, what is the purpose of her posting in Massaland?
Some nobody like Sangeetha Richards or Preeth Bharara types could have been picked and sent over on a diplomatic posting by MEA (india does have quite a few of these types) - former already showed her character by abdicating her maid job, absconding and then agreeing to be a puppet in the hands of those who want to humiliate India’ s representatives abroad all for the sake of a greencard, in case of latter..... well people can already see the Preet Bharara types for what they are.
DK is therefore the person the above two can never be.

No. Mort ji tried to draw the nonsense equivalence between an absconder maid (in pursuit of her greencard dreams) and DK (also supposedly in pursuit of her own greencard “dreams”) without a shred of evidence.

Finally letme remind you that less experienced diplomats have a specific tenure system adhered to judicially and no one is arbitrarily allowed to pick and choose their postings - which is why DK could well be posted in Cambodia or Koreas after her specified stint ends in massaland - even though her foreign language training is in german or her previous posting was in pakiland and irrespective of the fact that her husband is a massa citizen.

So i suggest you to takeback the greencard theory unless you have access to some evidence (which even GOI didnt have access to) when deciding on any diplomat to be posted at its massa mission (in this case it happened to be DK) .

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Nandu » 02 Jan 2014 00:56

I'd rather the matter be kept at the level of quid pro quo for diplomats, and not let it spill into other deals. IMHO, India has as much to lose as the US from a general downgrade in the relationship.

Strict reciprocity in the handling of diplomatic protocols, and keep other matters separate, please.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Bade » 02 Jan 2014 00:59

Lilo, sigh you are missing the point again. Please read what I wrote earlier. This "GC dreams" bizness is one that you introduced. When someone marries a US citizen, getting a GC is a given and easy way to live together without hassles or give you the ability to visit your spouse and kids in his/her country without visa hassles.

My interests are if she were a GC holder, how does the US view her status. Yes she has immunity now from her current job status, and the US knew it for sure, but they still went ahead. They thought they have leverage over her, just because of her family ties to the US.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 02 Jan 2014 01:14

vasu raya wrote:RKumar, as long as there is overlap on KILL deals, no sweat :)

can we manage the Longbow radar? anyways, it only takes one critical button to be pushed like the LCA engine for us to wag tails, talk about leverage, but then as long as EJ-2000 is there they would't really press it for 'petty' reasons, which is why alternatives however suboptimal should be thought of be it tech or tactics or vendors

FMS is a single vendor situation.

Ironically plan B seems to be what the Chinese are doing while facing a defense embargo from US, and here's the cropper we are the 5th prominent victim of NSA


Sir jee, can 3-5 LCH do a job of one apache. If the answer is yes, we should not buy Apache. Don't forget development is iterative, Longbow is not created or perfected in first go. So if we are confident, in next 10 years we can have something similar than we should not buy it as hardware will be around our neck for 3-4 decades. We are already half deep with some purchases so it makes sense to go ahead with those (GE engines, turbines, transport planes). But it does not make sense to make new item purchases from USA with their existing mind set "The India needs us more than we are equal partners."

Why Chinook deal should go through because, we need it to counter China. During peace time, it can help us lift heavy equipment to build road or setup infrastructure on the borders.

We should preserve life of existing transport planes like Il-76 and 78 during peace time and stick with them until we have local replacement. Once we get local replacement, we should only then discard these planes.

In our response or every interaction, we have to take care of our national interest but make a point to US by killing some deals which are assumed done by them. So we pick the stuff which we need absolutely and skip other stuff which is required but we can live without or can have local replacement in 5-10 yrs.

Balance the diplomacy act, don't take it to a breaking point but let it limp with tie our (US and India) legs together if one falls then other can't stand.

PS : Can we keep NRI, POI ... etc out of our discussion. It make me puke ... remember "divide and conquer rule".

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 02 Jan 2014 01:25

Nandu wrote:I'd rather the matter be kept at the level of quid pro quo for diplomats, and not let it spill into other deals. IMHO, India has as much to lose as the US from a general downgrade in the relationship.

Strict reciprocity in the handling of diplomatic protocols, and keep other matters separate, please.


You might be surprised that it is not a one way street. It is equal loss if we can't respect each other.

- US will lose one of the biggest consumer market in the world.
- US and EU defence economy is going down and they need to find a new market to replace the loss. A good example is UK, where it was 2 decades back and where it is today.
- US need human resources to fight their future conflicts in Asia and middle east.
- It is matter of time, there will another attack on US soil originating from Pak-afg. They are leaving an enemy injured and they will strike back after recovery. What US is going to do about it?
- In any conflict with China (because of Japan or other countries) they will need naval bases, air fields, repairs ....

and list goes on....

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 02 Jan 2014 02:49

Lilo, please calm down and no more of this "brain-dead footloose ITvity/YumBeeAyes seeking green cards" as some posters were already cautioned about this type of broad characterization recently. I am letting you go without a warning this time.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 02 Jan 2014 02:54

ArunK wrote:My first post on the Devyani Khobragade affair.
I personally believe that given all the discrepensies, it is better to fight the case and win rather than take the diplomatic immunity way out.
.

Arunji,
This is a very bad idea. Justice in US courts is a variable quantity. I have seen with my own eyes, a DUI with priors get a 15 to life, 10 years or even two years. All almost identical crimes, but getting widely different sentences. Sentencing varies with the race of the perpetrator, competency of the defending and prosecuting attorneys and even the county of prosecution. Unfortunately, this is an accepted fact here. For a given crime, a black will be given a longer term than a hispanic, Asian or a white defendant. Once found guilty, it is almost impossible to change the verdict even if glaring mistakes were made. Anyone found guilty of a felony will face consequences for the rest of his/her life. The other khoobie of the system is plea bargaining, where even the not guilty are persuaded to plead guilty by the fear of huge amounts of time that would be given otherwise. Fighting the case in US fed court means uncertain or even biased results, going by prior history. Going for plea bargaining will mean a light sentence for Dr. K, admitting guilt will mean a bad precedence for the entire Indian diplomatic corps in future. But the entire controversy is not to defend Dr. K as a person but the right of the US to prosecute Indian diplomats.
Gautam
Last edited by g.sarkar on 02 Jan 2014 03:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Nandu » 02 Jan 2014 02:58

RKumar, where did I say it is one way street? Of course, it is two way.

And that is still a good reason not to escalate beyond the ambit of the treatment of diplomats.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 02 Jan 2014 04:37

RKumar wrote: ....It is equal loss if we can't respect each other.


RKumar, I hope you are amenable to a point by point response.

- US will lose one of the biggest consumer market in the world.

Market access is governed by the WTO. Not by individual countries.

- US and EU defence economy is going down and they need to find a new market to replace the loss. A good example is UK, where it was 2 decades back and where it is today.

The amount we intend/can buy from the US is a small fraction of the US defense pie which domestically is $716 billion in 2013 not counting 'black' projects.

US need human resources to fight their future conflicts in Asia and middle east.

India is not going to provide those human resources.

- It is matter of time, there will another attack on US soil originating from Pak-afg. They are leaving an enemy injured and they will strike back after recovery. What US is going to do about it?

What could India do about it? We cannot/don't want to take action after 26/11

- In any conflict with China (because of Japan or other countries) they will need naval bases, air fields, repairs ....

We are more likely to need their help as and when China attacks us

and list goes on....

Please don't misunderstand. India and the US need each other. So if we want tit for tat but keep the powder dry against a common enemy. We should let the babooze (? Saik?) nurse and exploit a grudge against the USEND/USCONIN on a reciprocal basis. They are really good at grudges and they will be focused. It gives them something useful to do

Just trying to think in terms of LGBs instead of dumb bombs.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 02 Jan 2014 04:49

This post echos many people's sentiments (both Americans and Indians I see)

Why US will have to eat crow
Excerpts ..
It is now a question of when, not if, the United States throws in the towel in the long and ugly Indo-US diplomatic spat involving Devyani Khobragade, India’s deputy consul general in New York, and withdraw all criminal cases against her. The US will have to eat crow over the Devyani affair, though it may or may not apologise for the incident. But that is not so material. However, it will be in long term national interests of India if the US takes a few months in closing all cases against Devyani. Stumped! Here is the explanation. The US will have to eat crow over the Devyani affair, though it may or may not apologise for the incident. PTI Two points have been made here at the outset: (i) that it is an open and shut case that India and Devyani will win the legal battle in the US; and (ii) that it will be in long term Indian interest if the “closure” of the Devyani case were to formally drag on a few months. These twin arguments derive strength from the chance discovery, and a belated discovery, that Devyani was indeed “accredited” to the Permanent Mission of India (PMI) in New York as early as 26 August 2013 and thus entitled to full diplomatic immunity, more than hundred days before she was arrested on 12 December and incarcerated. On 26 December, the Ministry of External Affairs came up with a belated revelation that Devyani was indeed accredited as an “advisor” to the PMI with full diplomatic immunity with effect from 26 August 2013. Under the "Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations" Article 4 Section 11A specifies “Immunities from personal arrest or detention and from the seizure of their personal baggage” of all representatives of members to the United Nations. Section 16 of the same Article specifies that the expression “Representative” shall be deemed to include all Delegates, Deputy Delegates, Advisors, Technical Experts and Secretaries of delegations. Her arrest, therefore on 12 December, was contrary to her status on that date. This explains why the US has already initiated an internal probe into the Devyani case while acknowledging mistakes in the episode. In a way, the US ambassador in India Nancy Powell has already expressed ‘regrets’. She said that she joins "Secretary Kerry in expressing our regret for the circumstances of the consular officer's arrest, but we believe that we can look forward to continuing to expand our bilateral relations." But this is too little, too late and not just enough. India should exploit the Devyani incident to the hilt to ensure that complete reciprocity is maintained (something which has never been in place as the American diplomats in India have always been more equal than others). This brings us to the second point mentioned above: how it will be beneficial for India if the formal “closure” in the Devyani case were to take a few more months, which it will. Thanks to the Devyani incident, we have come to know several things. The first thing is that the American diplomats in India have routinely been enjoying all sorts of privileges without reciprocating these to the Indian diplomats in the US. This has been going on for years and no government in New Delhi ever dared to question this unequal diplomatic practice. This may change forever, and it should, after the Devyani incident has blown the lid off this diplomatic apartheid. Two, the US must understand that it has to take India as seriously as it takes China and Russia. The Americans are known to handle China and Russia with kid gloves mainly because it knows that if Washington were to do anything outrageous with Beijing and Moscow the retaliation will be fast and furious. As per the World Bank-IMF projections, India will be Number Three economy in the world in just 15 years, relegating Japan to the fourth spot. Even now, India is ranked Number Eleven, with Canada managing to have nudged past India for the tenth spot. This economic reality should be reflected in the international politics and diplomacy too. India can do this and drive the point home to the Americans in the coming weeks. New Delhi has already directed the American embassy in New Delhi to submit all relevant details of the salaries being given to all employees in American diplomatic missions in India. The deadline for furnishing this information was 23 December. The Americans have sought more time in submitting the data as many American diplomats serving in India are on vacation at this point of time. India needs to ensure compliance from the Americans. The Americans are bound to be found breaking several Indian laws once this exercise is completed. For example, the manner in which the family of Devyani’s maid Sangeeta Richard was “evacuated” from India to the US will inevitably expose the Americans in breaking several Indian laws, including taxation laws.
...
Americans have bitten much more than they could chew. Their bluff would be called soon. Once the Americans are cornered and fall in their own trap, India must deliver its master stroke. India must demand the scalp of the US attorney for New York’s South District Preet Bahara, ...

...That is why it will be in India’s interest if the “closure” in the Devyani case lingers on for a few months. This is because once the US officially acknowledges its mistakes in the Devyani case and withdraws all cases against her, there will be immense pressure on the MEA from the Prime Minister’s Office to forgive and forget.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 02 Jan 2014 04:58

Pentagon is not happy (About DK's handling)
New York: The US Department of Defense has expressed its dismay over the way Manhattan Attorney Preet Bharara and Co. needlessly humiliated diplomat Devyani Khobragade during her arrest in New York jeopardizing long-term US-India ties. With the row stretching into its third week with little sign of resolution, the Pentagon is concerned about the fallout. .....

. “Even expelling Ms Khobragade would have been less inflammatory than arresting her. And if an arrest was unavoidable, it's still hard to justify treating a diplomat in a wage dispute like a Colombian drug lord,” Sadanand Dhume wrote in the Wall Street Journal.

..."Ms Khobragade's arrest has resurrected the old cliché about the Ugly American, better at upsetting people than befriending them,” it added.

... The Pentagon views India as an important ally in Asia to counterbalance China. India now conducts more military exercises with the US than any other country and is working with US forces to bolster maritime security and combat piracy. India is scheduled to participate in the Rim of the Pacific (RIMPAC) naval exercise hosted by the US Pacific Command in 2014...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 02 Jan 2014 05:30

@Amber G. ^^ . Not that I had anything to do with the FP article but it echoes what I have tried to convey. If anyone here takes a moment to look at my previous posts re 'August 2013', it can be seen as a colossal failure of DoS/DoJ to understand the timeline.

The USEND compound as an example, is for legal reasons a 'part of the US'. So, when an Indian worker is not paid the US minimum wage, they violate US labor laws (the same basis for DK's arrest). However, since they did not need a visa to work, the visa fraud issue does not apply.

But, the visa fraud issue applies WRT to many spouses of USEND/USINDC personnel who are working in India without work permits and not paying taxes. This constitutes 'visa fraud' and 'tax fraud'.

All in all, I agree with the 'rapporteur' of FP but I think the Bharara thing is misplaced. PB is a good guy and a good friend for India to have. He will one day be AG of the US and a good friend to have.

This is not about PB as much as it is learning to deal with the Twin Towers of US diplomacy: the DoS and the DoD. Both play a role in US foreign policy and there is tension over turf.

India would do well to have parallel LOCs with both. AKA has been a nincompoop wrt to bilats with DoD, fearing CAG and the appearance of favoring 'deals'.

Time for reboot/reset.

JMT

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 02 Jan 2014 06:32

Dumping on PB is misplaced. Also, if it transpires - here is hoping that that is not the case but one never knows if the prosecution is going to come up with an ace in the hole - that there was physical abuse and/or threats, then the case would take a different tone.
Now I understand why Lisa Curtis is cautioning against over-reaction from India.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Altair » 02 Jan 2014 07:05

Can anyone point to White House position on the whole DK fiasco? Is there a sync between WH and SD?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 02 Jan 2014 07:10

I agree that it is not for India to demand the scalp(s) of a person or a few persons, by name. India (and DK) must get an unconditional apology, sort out the matter in an amicable way for the future, and demand the scalp(s) of whomsoever was involved from the US side. Besides that, India must institutionalize strict reciprocity in diplomacy. If two good things would come out of this unfortunate, unnecessary and ugly episode, they are, India putting US in its place and restoring the balance which got skewed somewhere along the line.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svenkat » 02 Jan 2014 07:29

chanakyaa wrote:
BRfites,
Those who are getting impatient,this is not a T20 match.....


What the F^%%#@.. I bot the tickets thinking it is a T20 match. Crap..it is a test series. I hate test matches. Can I get my money back?


Ok,it was a poorly worded post.But why is BJP not upping the rhetoric? Jaswant Singh prostrated himself to Strode Talbot.It was in NDA rule that BJP came up with the ridiculous "We are natural allies".Arun Jaitley bragged to US consular officer(in wikileaks) about his relatives in East Coast.

KS,B Raman have written about the admiration Indians have for US "open" society.

Elections are coming up in BD.US is withdrawing from Afghanisthan.These are very important issues.This incident has done one thing good.It has created a gulf between India and US.They cannot arm twist us.No more deadly embrace.This is one real benefit.Our relationship will be transactional.India has multi-faceted relationship with US.The State Department will not become benign,but its entrenched anti-hindu,anti-India bias has been broadcast to all quarters.Why should we respond stupidly?

The US has exposed its fifth columnists in India-christian mercenaries,NGOs etc.Whole of India is now aware of the threat.

Is this not a very good beginning?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 02 Jan 2014 08:13

svenkat: We are indeed natural allies. What is being missed (no not directed at you but a general and a forceful opinion, if you may) is that we are also peers (democracies, pluralistic societies, secular with freedom of speech and other freedoms and transparency to whit). If India rises to the challenge and not be shy about claiming its rightful place nobody in US or for that matter in any other country (barring UK!) would object to India's right to leadership in multilateral organizations in general and the UN in particular.

I am fully aware that the above is a very strong statement. On the flip side, if India were to believe in its strengths with the caveat of overcoming and correcting any weaknesses, then it is not all that far fetched.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby devesh » 02 Jan 2014 08:40

all these reports claiming DoD is "unhappy" with the treatment of DK are appearing in Indian media. and none of them are accompanies with an official statement from a public source within the US Govt. all I keep reading is "an official said this". which is BS if they don't name the said official.

IMVHO, we should take those reports of DoD expressing "unhappiness" (all of them in the Indian media, of course; and no corroborative pieces whatsoever in American Press) with a few tablespoons of salt. it's hogwash.

unless there is a face attached to all the so-called "officials" who are expressing unhappiness, we should consider it a case of DDM'itis.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 02 Jan 2014 08:47

Ugly affair can undo US-India entente
There is a strong likelihood that the ugly affair over the treatment of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade by the US authorities can cast a long shadow on India-US relations which have been repaired in the last 15 years after a tortured history famously known as the story of the “estranged democracies”.
What possessed the Americans to subject a diplomat to such indignities is not quite clear. But one thing is evident — the case of trafficking and visa fraud is patently trumped up. The house-help Sangeeta Richards was not going to enter the US labour market and there is no question of US law kicking in as far as wages go. Article 47 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations is clear that wages of domestic staff is determined by the sending country.
In any event, besides her duty as India’s deputy consul-general in New York, Ms Khobragade was also accredited to the UN on India’s behalf, a fact brought to the attention of the US state department by the world body, it now transpires. That allowed her full immunity from arrest. Still, the Americans arrested her, lodged her among hardened criminals, and subjected her to a strip-search and cavity search.
Under the preset Indian law, as amended after the Nirbhaya case of December 2012, a cavity search lends itself to the definition of rape or sexual assault. Indian diplomats are posted to the US to represent the Indian state, not to be subjected to such humiliation. There can be little doubt that even if a way to find closure to the Khobragade case is quickly found by the two sides, public opinion in this country has been incensed. That would leave behind an emotional drag-force in India-US ties, a sharp contrast with the way things have been in recent years.
The Khobragade matter is up for hearing in the US judicial system on January 13. If a mutually satisfactory resolution of the case is not found by then, and this will at the very least entail a quashing of the legal proceedings against the Indian diplomat, India and the US can return to the path of mutual recrimination. We should be quite clear about that. [b]It is therefore necessary to underline that the time-window is rapidly shrinking. If cool heads must prevail, they have less than two weeks in which to do so.[/b]
There is much riding on a positive tilt in India-US relations. Industry, trade, defence cooperation and the broad arc of political relations have come into play in a meaningful way for both sides. The US must decide on the wisdom of jettisoning this pattern and starting on a different basis.

As I have stated before, the time-window for a mutually agreeable and honorable resolution is two weeks and shrinking rapidly. Once the US government prove munna GOI incompetent on this issue the politics will start in earnest. GE is not going to be held before April 2014 and that will provide NaMo 2 months at least to blast munna GOI on this issue. US still does not appreciates what this will do to the relationship once NaMo starts targeting munna GOI on this issue.

I however hope things are resolved before this reaches the point of no return for the sake of the diplomat in question.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Satya_anveshi » 02 Jan 2014 09:04

Kerrorist's 2013 report card

I'm grading based on the degree to which the administration did or did not accomplish its own goals, rather than on the merits of those goals themselves or the general benevolence of U.S. foreign policy itself.

Based on these subjective grades, the U.S. foreign policy grade point average comes out to 2.0 exactly – a solid C, which sounds about right.

Following were the author's assessment of performance against the countries/regions/contexts:

Afghanistan-Pakistan: C-
China: A
Egypt: F
Iran: B+
Israel: C+
North Korea: B+
Pivot to Asia: B-
Russia: D
Snowden blowback: D---
Syria: D


India: (would hardly elevate the overall rating) C?

So, with the exception of China and therefore the economy, it the SNAFU all around.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 02 Jan 2014 09:11

No Leniency to Americans Flouting Indian Laws
In her New Year message, she expressed regrets for “the circumstances” of the arrest but not the arrest itself. It amounts to justifying the arrest, which was against all diplomatic norms.

<snip>

It now transpires that the US, which went out of the way to punish the diplomat, who allegedly did not comply with the minimum wages law, while engaging an Indian maid in the US, has been grossly violating Indian laws. Soon after the arrest, which caused a national outrage, India had asked the American embassy to give details of all its Indian staff and the payments made to them. The embassy has not yet provided the details on the specious plea that Christmas and New Year holidays stood in the way. However, statements made by some Indian staff show that the embassy has been giving a stepmotherly treatment to the Indian staff.

The Indians get only a fraction of the salary paid to the Americans for the same kind of work. Some categories of workers are not even paid the minimum wages. It is shocking that the Americans who preach to Indians on the rule of law pay scant regard to Indian laws. They seem to be under the impression that they can get away with ignoring the law in India. Since they are yet to relent on their adamant stance, India must press for full compliance with its order and ensure that Indian laws are rigorously followed by the US diplomats in India.

So US embassy and consular personnel in India have engaged in Tax fraud, Visa fraud and racial discrimination. They have also paid "slave wages" per their own calculation to their Indian staff. US Diplomats who commit crimes shouldn't get a free pass and should be given courtesies and subjected to standard procedure for breaking Indian law.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 02 Jan 2014 10:06

devesh wrote:all these reports claiming DoD is "unhappy" with the treatment of DK are appearing in Indian media. and none of them are accompanies with an official statement from a public source within the US Govt. all I keep reading is "an official said this". which is BS if they don't name the said official.

IMVHO, we should take those reports of DoD expressing "unhappiness" (all of them in the Indian media, of course; and no corroborative pieces whatsoever in American Press) with a few tablespoons of salt. it's hogwash.

unless there is a face attached to all the so-called "officials" who are expressing unhappiness, we should consider it a case of DDM'itis.

Completely agree. We have a tendency to imagine things in a way that we want it to happen and then misinterpret or even attribute meaning where none exists in the first place, as we saw in the 'regret' offered by Kerry & Nancy Powell. Additionally, even if it were to be true, it might just be a question of good cop & bad cop being played by the US. We are up against a country that has immense skills in such things.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2014 10:08

Cosmo ji

The GE engines for LCA thing is not such a deal breaker by itself. If push comes to shove, and India can allocate money, it can stockpile spares and also buy excess engines and stores them. Net, its all about money. If it was PRC, it wouldnt think twice about doing something like this. In beancounting obsessed India with everyone seeking to make a quick buck or two, however, its a harder issue. But still it can be done.

Also, Mr Antony has many flaws to be sure in terms of being an effective DM, but he is most definitely not a nincompoop in terms of safeguarding Indian interests and not having them beholden to any one nations sales.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby a_bharat » 02 Jan 2014 10:10

Why Devyani Khobragade didn’t tell NY cops she had diplomatic immunity

After the high-octane diplomatic spat that was triggered between India and the United States, the Government of India promptly issued an executive order transferring Devyani to the PMI so that she gets full diplomatic immunity. This was New Delhi’s desperate fire-fighting measure to respond to the American provocation.

But till this time, neither Devyani nor the MEA seemed to be aware that her earlier registration with the UN had already met with success and she was covered by complete diplomatic immunity at the time of the ignominious developments on 12 December.

Insiders reveal that after the Indian government transferred her to the PMI (so that she can get complete diplomatic immunity) she went about the task of doing the paper work. At that stage, she realized that she had already sent in an application for the same purpose several months before and her photo and her coordinates should be in the UN database.

It was at that point of time that Devyani realised that not only she had applied to the UN but the fact that her application had been already accepted.

This explains why Devyani did not claim full diplomatic immunity at the time of her arrest and subsequent incarceration.


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