India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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amit
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby amit » 06 Jan 2014 12:25

Arjun,

Have it your own way, I'm not interested in discussing this with you. I don't like discussions where rethoric (Eg. GoI awarding new contracts to Google, ad driven Internet industry in India is screwed vis a via China and Russia, and data centres can lead to robust local industry) morph into facts.

There's hope though. With the BJP's win near certain, I'm sure NSA front companies Google etc will be banished and we will soon have local Internet search giants (and cloud service providers) who will be at least as good as the to be born nationalist Brazilian and (existing!) Russian and Chinese search giants (which are free and nationalistic). Data Centres are after all the mother egg through which all these giants will be born. I just hope we get "nationalistic" data centres which are not set up with equipment from either USA and China in order to usher in a truly golden period. We should also change the name Data Centres into something more Indic sounding. I'm sure we can have a competition to get the right name.

My last post on this silly topic
Last edited by amit on 06 Jan 2014 12:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Arjun » 06 Jan 2014 12:30

amit wrote:My last post on this silly topic

Thought as much, that our babu-moshai would find anything to do with business silly !

If you want facts, continue in the Economy Thread - and we will see the extent of your "facts".

Ciao.
Last edited by Arjun on 06 Jan 2014 13:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chandrasekhar.m » 06 Jan 2014 12:41

Amber G. wrote:I for one would like that people keep perspective. There are some thing we know, some are mere conjunctures and people ought know the difference. Just one example ..
Just for the record Kerry expressed his regret in a strangely worded letter
...Kerry gave his permission to law enforcement to go ahead with arresting her, knowing fully well what the arrest process entails. Should have used some of the grey matter in his head before doing that, rather than expressing regret after causing grevious harm.
.

What is the source (that Kerry gave his permission etc)? (There have been some "SPECULATION" by someone, but it is just that a speculation not a reported fact. None in GOI, or Indian Consulate, from what we know, have said so, at least not yet. Statements like these, iMO, does little more than establish the credibility of author.

Point is, it is okay to speculate, guess or (or even say most likely) but ought not to present opinions or conjurers as fact.

Things are serious enough, one does not have to make up things just to make it more ugly than it is. (which is very ugly already).

This is why, I find it utterly incredible that posters here have given credence and publicity to even a clearly obvious fake video.

JMT

I remember that from a news report I read on the forum. Searched and here is the post viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6025&p=1560627&hilit=marie+harf+kerry#p1560627
Let me quote one of the lines spoken by the SD spokesperson as given in that news report, but please do read the entire post.
"He (Kerry) was certainly aware (of the arrest), yes, absolutely. He's been kept up to speed on this case," the State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf told reporters soon after informing them that Kerry spoke over telephone to the National Security Advisor Shivshankar Menon.

If Kerry didn't stop what was happening even after having been kept upto speed and informed of the arrest, doesn't that mean it's a fact he gave his permission/blessing?
Kerry as such cannot be defended and should not be allowed to go scot-free. That's how I read GOI's insistence on dropping the charges unconditionally and tendering an apology but at the same time not naming Kerry outright to be an idiot as I did.


I totally agree that we should not speculate and should maintain perspective. I was merely questioning where Kerry's perspective was. And let's not put lipstick on this pig of an affair by giving too much of a benefit of a doubt to the US either. Because from all the reports that are coming in, this was not something that slipped by the bureaucratic cracks in the SD.

Now, about the video. What happened to DK isn't fake, whether there is a video or not. I haven't watched the video that was linked, I didn't want to. Because she already explained her horrifying experience in an email about 3 weeks ago. One doesn't need to watch the video (fake or real) and then get outraged (even more). Because then that would be losing perspective and giving into anger. Though I now wonder if one of the best practices of the US Supreme Court blessed SOP in US prisons is to record the custodial rape. Perhaps someone on this board knows.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 06 Jan 2014 13:22

So the "boy-choir" statement of being "deeply sorry" at the IIC,haunt of the Delhi durbar of "intellectuals",must be seen as enough contrition and remorse from the US? Sorry "choir-boy" Kerry,the Boys from Philly saying "sorry" does not amount to a diplomatic apology.Using the grandson of Gandhiji to rub off the stain of dishonour on Uncle Sam's skin,that the sexual assault of our diplomat has brought about ,is a sly ,cheap stunt by the US.If it thinks that the aura of Gandhiji and using his grandson,who lives in the US to soothe and appease the Indian MEA and the outraged people,is a gross mistake,adding insult to injury.In fact the actions of the racist State Dept. and the US officials who sexually assaulted our diplomat,remind one most strongly of the white S.Afriican who threw Gandhiji of the tarin in S.Africa!

The visit of the all-boys's choir to India was facilitated by Arun Gandhi, grandson of Mahatma Gandhi and his greatgrandson Tushar Gandhi. AG worked as a diplomat in New York at the Indian Consulate.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/devy ... 34532.html


Arun Gandhi Pres. of the Gandhi Worldwide Edu Institute,lectures mostly on the US circuit,therefore is already compromised as a pro-US individual.It would be interesting to see whether he too like the AAP is funded by the Ford Foundation,or some other CIA/establishment benami organisation.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby merlin » 06 Jan 2014 14:53

I think this "teach those Indians a lesson" plan by arresting DK and then subjecting her to custodial rape would have been sanctioned right at the very top of the SD hierarchy. That is why there will be no apology from the US for violating the rights of our diplomat. At the most they will try to weasel out by offering some half assed regret and our servile GoI will accept it at the urging of our spineless MEA.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Altair » 06 Jan 2014 15:12

I think MEA missed a hint of coming freeze in India-US relations when India did not have an ambassador from US for several monthas after the Hindi speaking Peter Burleigh left after Rafael deal with Dassault.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby member_28352 » 06 Jan 2014 16:00

^^^wasn't the first time that the US didn't have a full time ambassador in India. There were periods in Clinton's presidency also where there was no full fledged ambassador to India.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 06 Jan 2014 16:32

Arjun & amit, lay off each other.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby amit » 06 Jan 2014 17:06

^^^^

Excuse me Sridhar why is that comment directed at me? I did not react to the babu moshai provocation and did not at any point use any prerojatives against the poster? In fact I ended the posting from my part.
Last edited by SSridhar on 06 Jan 2014 17:36, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: I am not going to engage in a debate with you to justify my action. Do not do that. Thanks

amit
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby amit » 06 Jan 2014 17:54

That's fine Sridhar. My post was more in surprise than anything else.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2014 18:59

the degree of anger among brfites can be felt by the view count of this thread - 481000 . it has quickly crossed the previous #1 the Namo thread which stands at 462000 and has been buzzing for a much longer time.

that one has 618 pages and is 18 months older. this one is 205 pages but has more views...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby KLP Dubey » 06 Jan 2014 19:10

The whole affair has a silver lining in that it throws light on the sorry state of India's diplomatic operations. A lot of things in India are done in a haphazard, non-standardized, ad hoc, poorly implemented manner. What we need are:

- A full review of diplomatic and visa privileges of Indians vis-a-vis other countries and development of a strictly reciprocal policy with well defined rules and zero exceptions.

- Proper coordination with immigration and police (if the family of the maid who had criminal cases pending was "evacuated" on a commercial flight out of DEL/BOM, why were they not on a computerized "no-fly" blacklist and blocked from leaving in the outgoing immigration check? Didn't the "T-visa" in their passports raise any suspicions??)

Obviously this needs a nationalist government in Dilli, not a government of sold-out anti-nationals and a spineless PM whose only action in this case is to "distance himself" from it. Indian interests and dignity have been left to rot deeply by these people.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Altair » 06 Jan 2014 19:22

Singha wrote:the degree of anger among brfites can be felt by the view count of this thread - 481000 . it has quickly crossed the previous #1 the Namo thread which stands at 462000 and has been buzzing for a much longer time.

that one has 618 pages and is 18 months older. this one is 205 pages but has more views...

It can cross half a million views by next week I guess. A new record.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amitava » 06 Jan 2014 21:17

merlin wrote:... right at the very top of the SD hierarchy. That is why there will be no apology from the US for violating the rights of our diplomat. At the most they will try to weasel out by offering some half assed regret and our servile GoI will accept it at the urging of our spineless MEA.


The smoke screen, aka inter agency review, has been set up for that.

Just hoping sections of the media and mea can keep the pressure up.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby rajanb » 06 Jan 2014 21:42

Singha wrote:the degree of anger among brfites can be felt by the view count of this thread - 481000 . it has quickly crossed the previous #1 the Namo thread which stands at 462000 and has been buzzing for a much longer time.

that one has 618 pages and is 18 months older. this one is 205 pages but has more views...


It sure is.

Jan 13th is fast approaching and I would have thought that the effects of the xmas egg nogs would have worn off. The fact that there is silence from Washington DC is either they have metamorphised into jerseys chewing their cud or its beefcake show time! After all, we are one more country showing a finger.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 06 Jan 2014 22:57

No business as usual with US till Devyani Khobragade issue resolved: India

NEW DELHI: India on Monday made it clear to the US that it cannot be "business as usual" between the two sides till the Devyani Khobragade issue is resolved.

This was conveyed by Vikram Doraiswami, Joint Secretary (Americas), to US Ambassador Nancy Powell when she met him at South Block here.

Doraiswami firmly put across to the US envoy that "it is your process and you have to sort it out", sources said.
...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 06 Jan 2014 23:00

ShankarCag wrote:^^^wasn't the first time that the US didn't have a full time ambassador in India. There were periods in Clinton's presidency also where there was no full fledged ambassador to India.

In fact no fulltime abassador for almost two years during Clinton's first term - but when he was in trouble he came to India and danced with few Rajasthani women and Indians forgave him.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 06 Jan 2014 23:06

rajanb wrote:The fact that there is silence from Washington DC is either they have metamorphised into jerseys chewing their cud or its beefcake show time! After all, we are one more country showing a finger.

Secy Kerry is busy with a long standing intractable problem so expect him to make mistakes knowingly and unknowingly on other fronts.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 06 Jan 2014 23:12

putnanja wrote:No business as usual with US till Devyani Khobragade issue resolved: India

Doraiswami firmly put across to the US envoy that "it is your process and you have to sort it out", sources said.

That is a line I like .. Lets see .. 13th Jan is not far off.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby johneeG » 06 Jan 2014 23:15

It seems to me that what is happening is that a falling super-power is trying to be over-aggressive to compensate for its fall. It perhaps hopes that by being more aggressive it will be able to stop the rise of new challengers like BRICS.

The brits were smart enough to realize that their time is up(from the time of WW1) and started slowly sharing power with amirkhans to keep the power within anglo-saxon. This allowed the brits to keep their empire for some time and retreat on their terms. amirkhan, on the other hand, seems to be of the view that if it can just do something right(perhaps be aggressive), then they will remain on top forever. It seems to me that in this mistaken belief, they are making more and more enemies/hostiles. A dhesh like Bhaarath that is head over heels in love with amirkhan, has also been disillusioned. It will take a bit longer time for some of the more hardcore amirkhan lovers, but even they will be disillusioned if amirkhan continues to follow these policies.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sivab » 06 Jan 2014 23:23

Kiran Kumar Karlapu
@Scarysouthpaw

The Invincible Prince of the Monsoons. Swears in Telugu but dreams in English.Sarkari Babu. Airport ka Raja. Sambar Lover. Superman. Lost in Bombay

Kiran Kumar Karlapu ‏@Scarysouthpaw 11h

"Excuse me. I have an US official passport"

"Back in the line please"

"I never had to use the line earlier"

"Im sure you know the reason"

"Why are US officials being made to stand in line now. Never happened earlier"

*random guy shouts* " This is for Khobragade"

Me "Bingo"

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amitava » 06 Jan 2014 23:26

Doraiswami firmly put across to the US envoy that "it is your process ...


That is wrong.

Arresting and strip searching a diplomat is never a process, and the time line of this incident clearly shows this was a project, planned well ahead.

The US will try to weasel out by saying this was a glitch in the process, blah, blah.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby kancha » 06 Jan 2014 23:32

Kiran Kumar Karlapu ‏@Scarysouthpaw 11h

"Excuse me. I have an US official passport"

"Back in the line please"

"I never had to use the line earlier"

"Im sure you know the reason"

"Why are US officials being made to stand in line now. Never happened earlier"

*random guy shouts* " This is for Khobragade"

Me "Bingo"


^^^ Conversation actually happened?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sivab » 06 Jan 2014 23:34

Contd...

Kiran Kumar Karlapu ‏@Scarysouthpaw 11h

Officer "This is against Athithi Devo Bhava"

Me: "Tera bhi cavity search karvaye kya?" :mrgreen:

Officer : "Back in the line please
"



He says he is AC of customs at Mumbai airport.

Kiran Kumar Karlapu ‏@Scarysouthpaw 11h

@vikashroy I am an AC ( Assistant Commissioner)

Amber G.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 06 Jan 2014 23:42

amit wrote:... The fact that things changed suddenly after the Foreign Sec's visit (the arrest happened two days after the visit as far as I recall) suggests that something happened during the talks that didn't go down well with some folks in SD and somebody hit upon a half-backed silly plan to "teach" a lesson. If this scenario is true then one needs to know from how far up in the pecking order this plan came from?


Amit, JEM et al,

I am no expert and certainly do not claim to know what exactly happened (like some people here in BRF :) ) but I don't think there was a huge conspiracy involving all the higher-ups to "teach" a lesson in such a crude way. Of course, these higher-ups are still responsible, and ought to be held accountable, even if they were merely incompetent (vs evil), but it is important for India (and US) to analyse it and learn from it so that it does not happen again.

We will know soon enough, but here is my take:

- Someone ("human rights lawyers" or SR's connections in US embassy in India) saw a way to exploit the situation for their personal gain. Of course it is/was extremely stupid, wrong and dangerous, (as we now know)... they thought they will get away with it. May be they had personal grudge against DK, or against India or someone else and DK was incidental (and they thought no one will care about DK). They miscalculated and I hope will be exposed and pay for this.

- It is apparent from actual reading of the document (specifying the charges) against DK that the person (agent) who prepared it, was, to put it mildly, very sloppy, and not very bright. (Means it did not have help from higher-ups, who I presume, will at least be more competent). The document looks like it is for harassment and not credible. (Which honest investigator will swear that DK, knowing it to be false, "caused "SR to file the information which SR filed, for an online application :eek: - he does NOT say, for example, that he was present when the application was filed, or even he interviewed a single witness who said under oath that DK "made SR to file", yet he is ready to "swear" that the information is correct - such as DK forced SR to write that DK will pay $4500/month. :eek: ) by merely noting the IP address. (As prosecutor has to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt, that kind of complaint normally will not cause a reasonable prosecutor to proceed)

- Preet Bharara's office, goofed big time, and jumped on it recklessly. He (PB) is very ambitious (I have known about him for quite some time - since he worked for Schumer - and there are talks about him being a possible candidate for AG, or NY Mayor etc) and likes to be known as a "Sheriff of Wall Street" , a tough guy image ready to tackle big-shots. (He also has powerful enemies who will all be too glad if he falls). I think he though it is his big chance to become a hero. (He miscalculated, I think, that most people do not like Indian consulate (Many have complained against Indian Consulate) and will have sympathy for the "poor maid"). His office now say that he came to know about the details of the case only a few days before the arrest. (This is no excuse, IMO). The press conference, he gave, was like pouring gasoline on fire. He also goofed big time for not knowing that DK had immunity due to her UN position,

- In some way I feel sorry for Nisha Biswal. The senate confirmation came recently only and she has been in the office for a very short time. ( Ironically she was maligned by some by her "Gujarat connections"). I don't think she was in the loop.

- I don't think higher-ups (eg Kerry) knew the whole situation. (Not knowing makes them even worse, IMO)

When all is said and done, GOI's reaction, IMO has been excellent. The "reciprocity" issue has been brought forward in a very convincing way. GOI has support for this case, both in India and in US. Even some of the anti-India (and some what bigoted) sources see the goof-up as goof-up on the US's part and say that the way DK was treated was shameful.

***

What will happen? (Of course I may be wrong but IMO the most likely scenario).

- Visa fraud case against DK will be dropped. They may give some face-saving to some culprits but the mere fact that arrest was illegal will be sufficient reason and a motion will be made to drop the charges, prosecutor will not object, and the case will be dropped.

- Unless there is a miracle, PB's future in politics is in great doubt.

- Once fraud case is dropped, for a few years to come, the incident will not go away or forgotten. The will be civil case(s) against false arrest and such, in US courts. Some criminal charges may be filed. (Prosecutors are generally immune to these, but investigators and police officers are not). There may be federal charges ( denial of civil rights). Also NY laws have "hate crime" provision - (If the crime was done because the victim was a minority) which increases the seriousness of the crime. If DK's husband is American citizen he is not going to remain quiet.

- Some good have come out to see India's reaction. Hopefully such event will not happen again.

Added later:
One important point, let the chips fall where they do - Indian GOI, (and court(s)) should proceed professionally and prosecute any wrong doing per Indian Laws. It may take time ...
(Not so much as revenge, but as a deterrent - and ASK US to cooperate, which I hope US does)

- Prosecute (including Americans citizen and others) who acted unlawfully (eg evacuate SR's family), mindful of its own laws and tradition. If someone with diplomatic connection is involved (and has immunity per India's understanding), ask US to drop the immunity etc.

- Examine other's role (eg PB or others, no matter how high up they are) and see if any laws were broken. If the treatment handed out to Indian Citizen DK is a crime, indict them. It is possible that in practical sense some culprits may escape justice, as US may be reluctant to help, but if convicted, the person will be liable to arrest if (s)he ever enters India.


(I am not an admirer of Russia by any means but have noted that PB is on top of the list of Persona non grata there, due to his role in episode with Russian Diplomats)
Last edited by Amber G. on 07 Jan 2014 00:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ManjaM » 06 Jan 2014 23:44

sivab wrote:Kiran Kumar Karlapu
@Scarysouthpaw

The Invincible Prince of the Monsoons. Swears in Telugu but dreams in English.Sarkari Babu. Airport ka Raja. Sambar Lover. Superman. Lost in Bombay

Kiran Kumar Karlapu ‏@Scarysouthpaw 11h

"Excuse me. I have an US official passport"

"Back in the line please"

"I never had to use the line earlier"

"Im sure you know the reason"

"Why are US officials being made to stand in line now. Never happened earlier"

*random guy shouts* " This is for Khobragade"

Me "Bingo"


Is this from someones twitter or lines from a talk show..? Not sure what I am reading here.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 06 Jan 2014 23:47

That was from that person (Kiran)'s twitter feed ...

sivab
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sivab » 06 Jan 2014 23:48

Those are twitter posts from a Customs official and he seems to be genuine. See following article in ToI.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 662459.cms

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby CRamS » 06 Jan 2014 23:52

AmberJi,

Good analysis. But what is your take on the US honcho newspaper editorials and op-eds that India's outrage is misplaced, and there are "serious" charges against DK, and US law is sacrosanct bla bla (NYT)? Not sure NYT thinking is any different from SD thinking.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Madhusudhan » 06 Jan 2014 23:57

NYT and WP are part of the bleeding heart, holier-than-thou East-Coast liberal elite that have no commonsense. These are the same set of folks that will moan and complain about how much people are being paid (converted to $) to make Nike shoes in a foreign country without taking into account local realities. We should just completely ignore these arrogant liberal elites and deal with more sensible, centrist elements of America (A dying breed).

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 07 Jan 2014 00:01

CRamS wrote:AmberJi,

Good analysis. But what is your take on the US honcho newspaper editorials and op-eds that India's outrage is misplaced, and there are "serious" charges against DK, and US law is sacrosanct bla bla (NYT)? Not sure NYT thinking is any different from SD thinking.

nyt is the mouthpiece of usa sd for outside usa.

Never saw them deviate, infact any significant change in sd's policies publicly generally come after continuous peppering of that propaganda in nyt.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 07 Jan 2014 00:23

US implies Indian government party to human trafficking

Raising the pitch, New Delhi has questioned the motive of the US government in making the maidservant of diplomat Devyani Khobragade — charged with visa fraud and underpaying her nanny — a victim of trafficking, which by implication meant government of India was party to it.
...
...
In a serious charge, New Delhi has conveyed to Washington that the way the family of the maidservant Sangeeta Richard was evacuated from India just before the diplomat’s arrest on December 12 on T visas — given to the kith and kin of the trafficked persons — and air tickets purchased by the US government further adds to the "doubtful motives of the US."


Sangeeta Richard, nanny of Khobragade had traveled to US on an official passport and her visa was granted on a note from the ministry of external affairs. Indian side also pointed out that the definition of trafficking under the Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons¸ adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 2000 and entered into force on 25 December 2003.

In New Delhi’s opinion, there are no grounds whatsoever to support US claims that Richard is a victim of human trafficking.

India side cites that the Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking in Persons defines Trafficking in Persons as "the recruitment, transportation, transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons, by means of the threat or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, of deception, of the abuse of power or of a position of vulnerability…"

In Richard’s case, she travelled to the US on an official passport under an employment contract "signed by her voluntarily".

...
...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 07 Jan 2014 00:31


ramana
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2014 00:40

Yesterday at a desi gathering someone (borderline MUTU) was ranting about how US is disliked by so many countries especially in Latin America.
Another piped in that there is State Dept to kick around those who like them like India to ensure the dislike stays.

The first one had no answer for he is medic and knows what the cavity search was all about.

Lilo
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Lilo » 07 Jan 2014 00:45

...even if they(Massa SD) were merely incompetent (vs evil),....



That's the now famous "Bin Laden defence" :)

Amber G.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 07 Jan 2014 00:51

Added later: (to my previous post)

One important point, let the chips fall where they do - Indian GOI, (and court(s)) should proceed professionally and prosecute any wrong doing per Indian Laws. It may take time ...
(Not so much as revenge, but as a deterrent - and ASK US to cooperate, which I hope US does)

- Prosecute (including Americans citizen and others) who acted unlawfully (eg evacuate SR's family), mindful of its own laws and tradition. If someone with diplomatic connection is involved (and has immunity per India's understanding), ask US to drop the immunity etc.

- Examine other's role (eg PB or others, no matter how high up they are) and see if any laws were broken. If the treatment handed out to Indian Citizen DK is a crime, indict them. It is possible that in practical sense some culprits may escape justice, as US may be reluctant to help, but if convicted, the person will be liable to arrest if (s)he ever enters India.


(I am not an admirer of Russia by any means but have noted that PB is on top of the list of Persona non grata there, due to his role in episode with Russian Diplomats)

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 07 Jan 2014 01:21

http://www.samachar.com/No-biz-as-usual ... ifeab.html
"No business as usual with US till Devyani Khobragade issue resolved: India
NEW DELHI: India today made it clear to the US that it cannot be "business as usual" between the two sides till the Devyani Khobragade issue is resolved.
This was conveyed by Foreign Secretary Sujatha Singh to US Ambassador Nancy Powell when she met her at South Block here.
Singh firmly put across to the US envoy that "it is your process and you have to sort it out", sources said.
New Delhi's assertion assumes significance in the context of the January 13 deadline........"
Gautam

Amber G.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 07 Jan 2014 01:26

Chandrasekhar: Just a few comments on your comments..

Kerry as such cannot be defended and should not be allowed to go scot-free. That's how I read GOI's insistence on dropping the charges unconditionally and tendering an apology but at the same time not naming Kerry outright to be an idiot as I did
.

Agree that Kerry should not be defended (and I, certainly am not going to defend him in any shape).

My point was simply that we should, in my humble opinion, be aware of the facts and need not introduce or present speculations AS facts. These is not necessary, and at times counter productive.
(We loose much of PR when even the seriousness of DK's treatment is brushed up by someone saying -"who is going to believe those who can't even tell if a fake video is fake")

I don't think GOI is going, (rightfully in my opinion) to insist that Kerry has to be "named" (or insist that x should be punished UNLESS there is PROOF (which can be held up in a court type setting). What will be helpful, if anything good comes out of this affair, is it never happens again. A clear apology by USA SOS (specially when it is quite clear that US treatment to DK was wrong) will be helpful. Spreading fake videos, burning up KFC's (like what happens in Karachi), mistreating some innocent person in the name of taking revenge, or escalating it to all-out-war is not helpful. When all is said and done, an all out war between India and US is benefit to Islamabad onlee..:).

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Virupaksha » 07 Jan 2014 01:57

US will not issue an apology. When it horrendously killed 290 people in a civilian plane and never apologised, infact awarded medals for them, how many here think that it will do the right thing.

The ego and its face brazening culture will never allow usa. Its downfall will also be in those attributes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 07 Jan 2014 03:04

Oped from Prabhu Dayal who was India's Consul General in New York till last year...
Worth reading for background information and reliable perspective ..

Choosing goodwill over rancour
The U.S. may have secret agreements with some countries granting their officers at the consulates immunity. However, it felt no need for such an agreement with India as its consular officers were already afforded personal immunity

The arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade and the humiliating treatment meted out to her has triggered an unprecedented row between India and the United States. Asking the U.S. to tender an apology has not helped in resolving the logjam. The U.S. is not used to tendering apologies, especially when it feels that its laws have been broken. Furthermore, the insistence on an apology has only hardened the U.S. position. Our objective should be to identify core issues which have precipitated this and earlier incidents with a view to finding both short-term as well as long-term solutions. In any case, the U.S. has expressed regret over the circumstance relating to the arrest.

One issue that has got highlighted time and again is the U.S.’s refusal to grant diplomatic immunity to persons whom it regards as Consular officials even if they are diplomats of the sending country.

On the other hand, India had been affording full personal immunity to diplomats and their family members posted at the U.S. Consulates in India. There are four such consulates at Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata and Hyderabad. All U.S. diplomats at these consulates as well as their family members were issued ID cards which stated that they had personal immunity in civil and criminal matters. These cards were similar in this respect to the cards issued to U.S. diplomats posted at their embassy in New Delhi.

Such unilateral gestures in diplomacy are often taken for granted. Following Ms. Khobragade’s arrest, however, the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) has withdrawn the ID cards of U.S. diplomats at the consulates and replaced them with cards which are similar to the ones issued by the State Department to diplomats posted at our consulates in the U.S. Moreover, as a reciprocal measure, no ID cards are now given to the family members of such diplomats. Reciprocity has also been enforced in some other issues. The U.S. Ambassador will not be treated any differently at Indian airports than the Indian Ambassador is treated at U.S. airports.

Previous incidents

One wonders why the MEA took so long to enforce reciprocity, which is a time-tested mantra in diplomatic links. Countries afford privileges and immunity on a reciprocal basis. Since we were not insistent on reciprocity, the U.S. side felt under no pressure whatsoever. Another diplomat working with me in New York and I were dragged to U.S. courts and accused of trafficking and human rights violations over nothing more than wage disputes. Krittika Biswas, a Grade 12 student and daughter of my vice-consul was arrested from her school in front of her fellow students on the charge of cyber bullying her teacher. She was handcuffed and kept in detention for 28 hours with prostitutes and drug addicts even though she denied the alleged crime and also said that she had a diplomatic passport. The U.S. authorities asserted that she did not have any immunity. My colleagues and I had to run from pillar to post to get her released. She was not readmitted to her school but was sent instead to a reform school. Later, it was found another student, and not Krittika, was responsible for the cyber bullying. He was neither arrested nor detained.

The MEA should have taken appropriate action after the very first case when diplomatic immunity was denied by the U.S.; it should have applied reciprocity then and there. This time, the mood is quite different. South Block is of the view that enough is enough.

Bilateral arrangements
Now that we have at long last enforced reciprocity in regard to diplomatic immunity, the State Department may be willing to find a feasible solution. It may not like to take the risk of some U.S. diplomat posted at a consulate in India landing in trouble with our law enforcement agencies, whose standard procedures would perhaps be as detailed as those of the New York police.

What is the way out of the deadlock? The booklet of instructions issued by the U.S. State Department to law enforcement officers gives us a clue. While stating that consular officials have only limited personal immunity, there is a paragraph on special bilateral arrangements which states: “In some cases, a country and the United States have concluded a bilateral consular agreement that grants to members of the staff of their consulates (provided they are not U.S. nationals, legal permanent residents, or permanently resident in the United States) privileges and immunities approximating those afforded diplomatic agents. Law enforcement officers should be aware that these arrangements are not uniform and the State Department identification cards issued to these persons reflect the appropriate level of immunity....”

<snip whole article is in the link>

(Prabhu Dayal was India’s Consul General in New York.)



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