India-US Strategic News and Discussion

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2014 00:27

Kerry is hardly Boston brahmin material.

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4489
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 14 Jan 2014 00:32

The Mays are from Texas, as per the FB posts. And it doesn't matter whether they are from the North or South. Their behavior is exactly like what can be expected from racist rednecks. So calling them out as they are is no crime I feel

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2014 00:38

putnanja wrote:The Mays are from Texas, as per the FB posts. And it doesn't matter whether they are from the North or South. Their behavior is exactly like what can be expected from racist rednecks. So calling them out as they are is no crime I feel



Can you dig deeper. We may find an EJ connection somehwere. Its just doesn't fit the diplomat profile the way they behaved in India.

US are not like that. Often times its the US diplomats who stood up to SD political honchos time and again.

Again my gut feeling but Wayne May might have something to do with the US Marshals excess zeal.

We keep forgetting the basci facts that have been reported in this thread.....


TOI's C Rajghatta on Dec 25th, 2013
Visa application Base Salary



...
WASHINGTON: If the US state department's unnamed mandarins who tattled to a Foreign Policy blog are to be believed, Gregory Starr's impressive resume is marred by an incident in which he shot himself in the foot, literally, when drawing an unauthorized small caliber weapon out of his ankle holster. The alleged mishandling of firearms, "a big no-no in the foreign service," didn't derail Starr's confirmation earlier this year as the state department's chief of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, the agency whose sealed complaint enabled US attorney Preet Bharara to launch prosecution of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade on charges of visa fraud and misrepresentation.


....
"It is clear that Mark Smith, the Diplomatic Security Services agent who handled the investigation and arrest of Dr Khobragade



So it was BDS of SD all along and PB got into the act as Johnny come Lately and got the egg on his face and DOJ.

RCase
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2061
Joined: 02 Sep 2011 22:50
Location: Awaiting the sabbath of Fry djinns

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RCase » 14 Jan 2014 00:40

{edited. Bad taste. Ramana}
(Dog lovers, pls, don't get this wrong. I love my 'COW' just as much as I love my 'dog').
Last edited by ramana on 14 Jan 2014 01:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ramana

Madhusudhan
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 20 Apr 1999 11:31

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Madhusudhan » 14 Jan 2014 00:42

One significant punishment/snub should be to delay any ongoing non-critical business deals and get them approved the day the next President gets inaugurated. IIRC Iran did something like that with the hostages under Jimmy Carter and released them the day Reagan took office? Time to send Obama a strong message that India doesn't like to work with his admin.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Jan 2014 00:43

LokeshC wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote: .....snip.......

Time wounds all heels.
......snip......


WTF am I reading????


I give up. I don't know :)

The phrase in question however, is borrowed from John Lennon who in turn probably borrowed it from Groucho Marx (Go West 1940)

https://www.google.com/search?q=time+wo ... =firefox-a

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10608
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 14 Jan 2014 01:07

ramana wrote:Kerry is hardly Boston brahmin material.

He was in "skull and bones" at Yale.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 Jan 2014 01:56

shouldn't BB-walas be sounding more a bit brit? dubya also being a cult of skull & bones sounded like a mixed message BB wala but "made in texas" stamp on his forehead.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7144
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jan 2014 01:57

This blog from Huffington post opines, quite correctly IMO, thatU.S.-India Relations Will Endure Despite the Khobragade Controversy.

As ugly as the episode was, from what I see, most decent people (both in India and US) found it ugly and want to make sure that it never happens again. I think DK has exposed many nasty things, particularly in US embassy in New Delhi, Prosecutor's office in NY and lack of clear normal (like US counter part enjoyed in New Delhi) diplomatic immunity to Indian consular officers which exposes them to reprehensible, evil mistreatment. No matter how much Islamabad or Beijing wishes, it is up to India and US to make sure everyone learns from this, the culprits are brought to justice.

Anyway here are some excerpts from the above article. Link is given above..

A month after the United States arrested an Indian diplomat in New York over charges she committed visa fraud, a consensus has emerged that U.S.-India relations have sustained grave damage. If recent headlines and commentary in both countries are to be believed, the arrest and alleged mistreatment of Deputy Consul General Devyani Khobragade on December 12 in Manhattan have triggered an unprecedented deterioration in bilateral relations between Washington and New Delhi. U.S.-India ties are now apparently between a rock and a hard place, experiencing a big chill, regressing and threatening to completely unravel. ....
-- have even prompted some experts to question the fundamental assumptions underlying U.S.-India relations, hailing an end to the honeymoon between the world's oldest and largest democracies. Khobragade's indictment, grant of diplomatic immunity, and subsequent departure from the United States have only strengthened this perception rather than end the controversy.

But is the U.S.-India strategic partnership really so fragile? Although the heated rhetoric surrounding the Khobragade episode would suggest otherwise, the United States and India have confronted other challenges far more formidable than the ongoing diplomatic row that has erupted between the two countries over the young diplomat's arrest and the circumstances surrounding it.

< Following examples are given.. please read the original article for details)

- India's close relationship with Iran, for example, long constituted a major irritant in ties between Washington and New Delhi....

- The stringent liability legislation enacted by India's parliament shortly after passage of the landmark U.S.-India civilian nuclear deal has also posed a potent challenge to bilateral relations for more than five years.
...

More recently, documents leaked by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden revealed that India was among one of the NSA's top surveillance targets and that its United Nations mission in New York and embassy in Washington were bugged and monitored by the agency. While similar revelations of American surveillance on other friends and allies abroad provoked outrage and condemnation in capitals around the world, New Delhi's tepid response highlighted its resolve not to let the disclosures impact U.S.-India ties.

...
Viewed within this context, dire predictions regarding the future of U.S.-India relations appear exaggerated and inconsistent with the history of the strategic partnership. Ultimately, the overall trajectory of the U.S.-India ties is unlikely to be affected by the brewing controversy in the long-terms.

..

To be sure, the current diplomatic dispute is a significant one that has put genuine strain on the strategic partnership. But U.S.-India relations have proven remarkably durable and resilient in the face of even more daunting challenges. The Khobragade controversy is unlikely to change that.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2014 02:03

Cosmo-R,
Well look up heel
Heel = Dishonorable person, a cad.

So time does wound heels!!!
I got right away.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2014 02:19

The thread moved ~110 pages in about a month. Lots of initial posts, rhetoric, a few people got warned, one got banned that I know of.

Among the posts I found these few to be insightful:

LokeshC wrote:Anyway, my theory of a dirty attorney has come true. There has to be some org like this to organize this kind of movement.

I am now leaning towards an over-zealous "savage-civilizing-mission" gone wrong theory rather than CIA mole theory.

Recent drain-inspector reports about India were cribbing about how there is "slavery" in India and how everyone from top to bottom is exploiting the dalit slaves etc. So I guess they decided to make an "example" of someone when they got a chance.


and
Rudradev wrote:Ramana's point about Mayawati being "right" makes me wonder about something else.

If this were simply a case of trying to bash India on "human rights/human trafficking" grounds, Preet Bharara and co. could have selected ANY Indian diplomat. I'm sure many of them hire domestic help from India, and would have been vulnerable under the same "visa fraud" technicality.

Certainly the India-baiters would have had a nicer story for the media, if they'd selected someone who was an Upper Caste Hindoo. Yet, they went for Devayani... an SC... specifically. Which means that there was a need for Devayani to be specifically targeted. The placement of Sangeeta Richards as a maid in her home, the coincidental service of Richards' in-laws at the homes of US diplomats in India, only lend further credence to the idea that this is not some general high-handedness around "human trafficking."

The main questions to be answered now:

1) On what grounds were Philip Richard (Sangeeta's husband) and his child brought into police custody?
2) Once detained, upon whose orders (and after how long) were they released?
3) Once released, how did they obtain US visas? Isn't there a check-box on the US Visa Application Form to specify whether one has ever been arrested for criminal activity in one's home state?
4) Once they obtained US visas, how were they allowed to leave the country by Emigration Officials?

Who pulled these strings? Too many clearances from high places WITHIN India were required for all of this to happen. Is the GOI's loud-mouthed reaction to the Devayani arrest, also a diversion to avoid these questions being asked?



Questions are still open and for NSA Menon to answer.

I think DK was chosen precisely for the Mays didn't expect any outrage in India. We will never know off course.


AmberG, The fact that US did eventually give the diplomatic immunity even at late evening (5:47 pm after most people are off to home!) shows that they had to recognize Vienna protocols. Which is good thing. Unlike earlier times(Moniyhan) there were no Congress voices raised at the Administration massive faux pas. Something for the US Senate Foreign Relations committee to reflect on and the fund givers to India Caucus members to re-evaluate.
AFAIK there was no Congressperson who raised their voice or questioned the downward spiral.

----
In one of the previous pages around Dec 13th there was Hind Times report quoting the person(Indian origin by the name) who recommeded SR to DK. Any refs?

And on Jan9th th day DK left US, the Ind Exp had this sotry:

DK wants freedom to return to US but MEA has other plans


Devyani wants freedom to return to US but MEA has other plans for plea deal

PranabDhalSamanta : New Delhi, Thu Jan 09 2014, 10:33 hrs 0

Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade seeks assurance that any criminal record from the case will not impede her from entering the US in the future. (Reuters)Related

Even as India stepped up pressure on the United States by ordering the closure of some facilities at its embassy in Delhi in connection with the alleged visa fraud case against its New York-based diplomat Devyani Khobragade, differences have cropped up between the IFS officer and the Ministry of External Affairs over the plea bargain offer from US Attorney Preet Bharara.

US authorities, predicated on Khobragade pleading guilty in the case, are willing to waive her prison term while recognising it as a criminal offence, it is learnt.

Khobragade was open to taking this discussion further with just one condition — an assurance that any criminal record from the case will not impede her from entering the US in the future, be it in obtaining a visa or related law-enforcement issues, as she is married to a US national.

The MEA, however, put its foot down, saying the government could not accept any deal which will frame this case as a criminal offence as that could hurt similar cases besides complicating matters for those currently posted in the US.

The starting point for any legal deal, sources said, was to convert this case into a civil offence confined to the alleged underpayment of wages to Khobragade's maid Sangeeta Richard. All previous cases involving Indian diplomats and their domestic helps in the US have been civil offences.


But if that is done, the US would suffer some loss of face as Khobragade had been arrested on trafficking charges and those were the grounds on which Richard's family was moved out of Delhi by the US embassy.

For the government, it's learnt, facilitating Khobragade's unimpeded re-entry into the US is not a priority as much as ensuring she gets diplomatic accreditation (G-1 visa) from the US state department following her transfer to the United Nations. Once that is done, the government may even move her out of the US after some time
.

{So by asksing for the immunity to be waived the US forced the hand as she was transferred right away. Very clear GOI would not accpet the criminal charge under any circumustances.}


The diplomatic row is back on the boil as the January 13 deadline for Khobragade's indictment looms, with Bharara opposing the diplomat's plea for a one-month extension on grounds that the two sides are involved in discussions to resolve the case.

Sources said the first major casualty of this fresh escalation could be the India-US Energy Dialogue for which US Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz was due to travel to New Delhi.

The dialogue was set for January 15-16 and it is believed the Indian side has suggested a postponement given the present acrimony in the relationship. The US, on the other hand, has conveyed that both sides should not let this issue affect other aspects of the relationship.

But South Block is in no such mood. It has planned a range of measures targeting US diplomats in India. Starting with simpler steps like stripping some diplomatic privileges to preparing grounds for serious legal action, all options are being explored.

The anger, it is learnt, has multiplied in the past week or so after the MEA established that it was the State Department which had taken the lead and sought prosecution in the case.

Khobragade had informed the State Department about her alleged troubles with her maid, to which Washington had asked her to meet officials of the Diplomatic Security division.

In response, New Delhi had written back saying the matter was sub-judice in India and fell outside the jurisdiction of the State Department. Thereafter, there was no communication from the US until Khobragade's arrest.




Hat tip to the reporter. He goes up in esteem.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7144
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jan 2014 02:22

Some more tidbits from WSJ article. (posting it here since it may require subscription).

More things come out, more nastiness of Preet Bharara and US embassy in ND's exposed.

Also, from DK's father's statement and and other reports, it seems that PB hid exculpatory evidence, (two witness statements which points to DK's innocence) which a prosecutor is required by law to present. It this was so, it is a serious offence. (I have seen Lawyers being disbarred for that offence)

Diplomat’s Lawyer Defends the ‘Two Contracts’ for Domestic Worker

On Monday, a lawyer representing Devyani Khobragade, the Indian diplomat indicted on charges of alleged visa fraud in the U.S., is expected to appear in a New York court to defend his client against the allegations, including that she underpaid and overworked her domestic help.

The prosecution’s case, in part, centers around allegations that Ms. Khobragade had her domestic worker enter into two contracts: The first in which she promised to pay the woman a rate in accordance with the minimum wage required for such workers to obtain a U.S. visa, and the second, which agreed to a far lower salary and superseded the first.

Daniel Arshack told The Wall Street Journal that his client, Ms. Khobragade, kept her promise to pay her domestic worker in line with U.S. labor laws governing work visas.

The prosecution, in an indictment before a grand jury on Thursday, had alleged that the diplomat, who returned home to India last week, but still faces a case against her in the U.S., paid the woman a little less than $1.50 an hour and often required her to work more than 100 hours a week, without a full day off. This, prosecutors say, was in contravention of U.S. visa laws.

Ms. Khobragade’s arrest led to a diplomatic stand-off between the India and the U.S., which dismissed Ms. Khobragade from the country after she was indicted. India, in retaliation, asked the U.S. to remove one of its diplomats based in New Delhi.

In an emailed statement to the Journal, Mr. Arshack set out the case for his client’s innocence.

Witnesses who actually stayed in the home have confirmed that the domestic worker had a very light work load, time off and plenty of spare money to give to people to bring home to India and to purchase gifts to send home to India,” the lawyer wrote.

Dr. Khobragade entered into a contract to pay the domestic worker $9.75 per hour for 40 hours work. That is precisely what the worker received,” he added.

The prosecution, in the indictment, alleged that Ms. Khobragade had Sangeeta Richard, the domestic worker, enter a second agreement “setting forth the true terms of employment, which provided for the payment of a legally insufficient wage (a total of 30,000 rupees – approximately $573 per month or $6,876 per year, regardless of the number of overtime hours).”

To that, Mr. Arshack said that the second contact did not replace the first one. “It simply guaranteed that a portion of the funds discussed and promised to be paid during the signing of the first contract would be paid in India,” he wrote.

The second contract merely facilitated the payment of a portion of the funds earned under the first contract to be paid in India to the domestic worker’s husband, the lawyer said.

Prosecutors alleged Ms. Khobragade made false statements to U.S. visa officials in order to gain a U.S. visa for her domestic worker. “The allegations are false and demonstrate a disturbing lack of investigation,” Mr. Arshack said in response. He added that the statements made in the application for a visa for the domestic worker were made by the worker herself.

Every question was answered by the domestic worker and the certification of accuracy was made [by] the domestic worker,” he wrote. Once the visa application was completed, the domestic worker went to the U.S. Embassy in Delhi alone for a face-to-face interview with a visa officer, he said.

During the interview, Mr. Arshack alleges, the domestic worker confirmed the accuracy of all of the information that she had provided in the visa application and presented the contract between herself and Ms. Khobragade.

Ms. Richard, the domestic worker who remains in the U.S., could not immediately be reached for comment.


Now DK is safe in India, once charges are dropped it is time to bring a massive suit for false arrest.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14571
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pankajs » 14 Jan 2014 02:31

Amber G. wrote:Now DK is safe in India, once charges are dropped it is time to bring a massive suit for false arrest.

After the massive outrage, the DoS/DoJ knew they had to step off their high horse and grant her immunity. The pressure on DK till the end to go with a plea bargain may have been precisely to avoid the massive suit that will invariably follow if the case is thrown out.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 Jan 2014 02:44

gotta be careful when we say "DK is safe in India".. I still feel there is a lot of things hidden from public information. this is getting painful!

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3822
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saip » 14 Jan 2014 02:47

To that, Mr. Arshack said that the second contact did not replace the first one. “It simply guaranteed that a portion of the funds discussed and promised to be paid during the signing of the first contract would be paid in India,” he wrote.

This is very valid point.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2014 02:53

Its an additional contract to pay the maid in India.And the legal eagles read it as a second contract.
What do they teach in Harvard?

Also what do we know of Sherlock Mark Smith?
Seems to be closer to Inspector Clouseau.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19664
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 14 Jan 2014 02:54

I think its high time the likes of Nelson, the Economist junkies, NYT gungadins (they have Indian names helming their rubbish) were all asked to go back to their privileged cocoons. India is not for their oh-so-civilized skins.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2014 02:58

I did read the Huffington Post op-ed.
Its written by an Ind-Am scholar from Belfer Center in Harvard Uty.

While it paints a rosy picture for the future it does not recognize reality of US SD.

The reality was presented by the SD piling whole hog on DK(long pattern of creating case history since July 2013 not informing visiting MEA secy etc)) and to foist the charge of human trafficking.

And the article tries to scare India with bag bad wolf/dragon China.

US has more to worry about China right now with Japan reappraising the Yoshida Principles under benign neglect by Ombaba.

Can respond even more fully if desired.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36416
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 Jan 2014 03:05

Harvard is a place to show what you can teach or show how much money you have to throw.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7144
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jan 2014 03:08

pankajs wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Now DK is safe in India, once charges are dropped it is time to bring a massive suit for false arrest.

After the massive outrage, the DoS/DoJ knew they had to step off their high horse and grant her immunity. The pressure on DK till the end to go with a plea bargain may have been precisely to avoid the massive suit that will invariably follow if the case is thrown out.

Of course. This is a very standard technique, specially when prosecutors know they goofed up, to pressure, intimidate, bluff so that the person gets scared and pleads guilty (even to a minor offence). This prevents further law suits. (I personally know more than a few cases where this happened - sometimes one condition for the settlement was that the arrested person will not bring up any suit)

I am glad that that trick did not work. Let us wait and see. I hope, (actually I believe) that some good will come out after a massive law suit and lot of filth will be cleaned up. (Of course, in additions the criminal cases against the evil-doer should be, filed both in India and US). Devyani is safe but, by no means it is over.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3822
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saip » 14 Jan 2014 03:11

On Nov 11, when the DS160 was filed no offence was committed as there were no DK lies on the form (in anycase it was signed by SR). I read somewhere it was filled by DK (they even traced the IP to DK's computer) and that may explain 4500 figure to the question (your salary in local currency). But to go by the form it should be SR's salary in India in local currency. Say DK had a mental lapse and filled her own salary and put $ in front of the figure. But the answer to the next question (describe your duties) would have been either 'maid' or 'diplomat'. Chances are Mark 'Clouseau' Smith read it as $ and ignored the next answer. People see what (especially if their dyslexic :D ) they want to see. Because there was another contract on 23rd Nov, Smith jumped to the conclusion that it has replaced the first contract and so claimed DK had no intention of honoring the first contract and voila visa fraud! 2+2 = 22!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2014 03:34

I think we should resume normal programming in this thread and discuss the MEA in the Indian Foreign Policy thread...

I still would like some answers on the many questions that came up where the MEA gave teh non-reciprocal facilities.

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7144
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jan 2014 03:48

I might have mention it before but may be not many have noticed it..(One can't even make this up).

Did you know that Wayne May's big boss behind all this affair is none other that Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Diplomatic Security- . Gregory Starr. He was appointed to the present post in last November, and is the one who directed the notorious "investigation"

Interesting part is this person shot him self in foot, yes literally!!!. No I am not making this up. It is well known! He was drawing an "unauthorized small caliber weapon" out of his ankle holster. Of course playing and mishandling of firearms is a big no-no in the foreign service, yet this fact didn't derail Starr's confirmation earlier this year as the state department's chief of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security! (This is the agency whose sealed "complaint" was cited by US Preet Bharara to enable him to mistreat DK.

Looks like he shot himself again in the foot, only this time the victim(s) were many innocent people. He ought to be held accountable to this.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2014 03:52

I saw that and was :(

Amber G.
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7144
Joined: 17 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 14 Jan 2014 03:57

^^^ Btw, in G. Starr's confirmation hearing, according to spokeswoman Marie Harf John Kerry have "great confidence in Starr's ability to lead and believe it's imperative that he be confirmed by the Senate."
"Mr. Starr had an accidental discharge with a small caliber pistol. That obviously in no way affects his ability to serve as Assistant Secretary of State for Diplomatic Security,"
:rotfl: (No these are actual quotes)

Of course there were other concerns, like the one he waived medical requirements and appointed his son (who is color blind) to a DS position.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3822
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saip » 14 Jan 2014 04:16

Any relation to Ken Starr, the notorious investigator of Monica Lewinsky affair?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20905
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 14 Jan 2014 04:29

Tx TSJ.I made a mistake.Mea Culpa.

Reg. officiousness of US officials is well known,some truly nasties,esp. women are posted as visa officers.But some of our own kind working for them are equally repulsive.Aeons ago when in Univ,as film sec. I used to get films and docs. from the various embassies,consulates,etc.A close relative was Hon.Consul for an EU country who gave me free run of their entire stock.I once borrowed a film from the USIS and when I went there a second time,was rudely received by one of our own "darkies",property manager,whose office was in the basement of all places,telling me "Don't you know who we are,the USA? We Americans don't hand out our films to just anybody!"
I impolitely told him who I was,an Indian in my own country and where he and "his" country could get off with the appropriate finger too.His jaw just dropped,as he had expected some servile whimpering.

However,the crux of the issue is what punishment and change of direction is being handed out to the US? The answer,virtually nothing.It is business as usual,with big ticket defence deals going through and if the Frontline report "Diplomatic Storm" (http://www.frontline.in/world-affairs/d ... 538613.ece) is correct,even a prelim. agreement US N-reactors has been signed.Foggy Bottom must be laughing away at out misplaced sense of "victory" over the affair,when we meekly surrender on the main issues.What else to expect from Surrender Singh!

Madhusudhan
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 20 Apr 1999 11:31

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Madhusudhan » 14 Jan 2014 04:35

Looks like Dean Olsen appears to shares the views of the Mays. Here's a twitter exchange:

AndrewBuncombe ‏@AndrewBuncombe 10h
'Was expelled US diplomat racist? Reminder that anything said on social media can return to bite you. V @DelhiDean http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 719329.cms

Dean Nelson ‏@DelhiDean 9h
@AndrewBuncombe I don't think they were. They don't look good, but many common complaints among homesick expats in there

sivab
BRFite
Posts: 996
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 07:56

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sivab » 14 Jan 2014 04:40

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 767404.cms

WASHINGTON: Somewhere in the middle of an epic 400-page tome on the History of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security (BDS) of the US state department, there is a black and white photo of Special Agent James McDermott providing protection to PM Jawarharlal Nehru and defence minister Krishna Menon as they arrive in New York City in 1961 to attend the UN session.

As the month-long diplomatic spat between India and the US over the so-called Khobragade episode simmers and recedes to the background, the photo is a stark reminder of BDS' primary function — "providing a safe and secure environment for the conduct of US foreign policy" by protecting US and foreign leaders — and how it went off the rails vis-a-vis New Delhi, when the bureau arrogated for itself the task of rescuing a housekeeper employed by a diplomat.

Under any other circumstances, such interference would have invited contempt charges from the court, but the couple at the centre of what New Delhi sees as an outrageous and contemptible caper, US embassy officials Wayne May and his wife Alicia Muller May, have both left New Delhi after the husband was turfed out by MEA in retaliation for Devyani Khobragade's expulsion. Both had diplomatic immunity. As the Mays return to Washington, there is no sign that the state department has any intention of examining what drove them to pursue their activist agenda in New Delhi that shook bilateral ties to its roots.

But their social media presence and online fingerprints are being keenly examined by the digerati, who see in their observations the very epitome of the "Ugly American," a widely used pejorative term describing a blundering, offensive American that traces its origins to the eponymous book by William Lederer and Eugene Burdick.

In the book, set in the fictional south east Asian country of Sarkhan, a local journalist writes: "For some reason, the people I meet in my country are not the same as the ones I knew in the US. A mysterious change seems to come over Americans when they go to a foreign land. They isolate themselves socially. They live pretentiously. They're loud and ostentatious. Perhaps they're frightened and defensive, or maybe they're not properly trained and make mistakes out of ignorance." Going by their social media observations, the Mays fit the bill, recording their complaints about cows on the road, moaning about lack of red meat, and ridiculing local customs and mores. The irony is that Alicia Muller May was the embassy's Community Liaison Officer.

Wayne May himself sets the tone soon after his posting to New Delhi in 2010. In a March 2011 interview to a college journal, he cites "unhealthy living conditions like air and water pollution, the threat of disease and sickness, bad traffic" among the challenges of serving in India. All true, as most Indians would themselves acknowledge, except that, read in conjunction with various other observations by his wife and their friends, it appears they had ill-concealed contempt for a country they were asked to serve in. Their digital presence has now been largely scrubbed. May did not respond to a message last Friday when this paper first reviewed the social media entries of the husband-wife, shortly before they hit public domain.

But in Washington, there is no sign of any concern about what is now brewing to be a PR disaster on the heels of a diplomatic fiasco.

More recent disclosures by Devyani Khobragade's attorney Daniel Arshack, who believes the case involved major flubs in judgment and an "embarrassing failure of US international protocol," point to the US attorney Preet Bharara's office trying to extract a guilty plea from the diplomat as part of any deal. He and two Indian diplomats who participated in the negotiations "were troubled by the intransigence of the US attorney's office," Arshack said, even as both Khobragade and the Indian government rejected the idea of pleading guilty. Indian sources said New Delhi even rejected the idea from the prosecution that she should plead guilty to a lesser charge of misdemeanor.

As far as the Indian side is concerned, one of the questions that remains unanswered is why the higher level state department officials did not step in to stop the bilateral bleeding once it became obvious that the BDS and their law-enforcement associates, who seemed to be acting in tandem, had a poor case, particularly when it came to using human trafficking provisions to rescue the Richard family.

One surmise: The state department's political bureaucracy, going up from assistant secretary Nisha Biswal to her boss Wendy Sherman to her boss Bill Burns to his boss John Kerry, all of whom were engaged in talks with visiting Indian foreign secretary Sujatha Singh while the arrest was in the works, did not want to take on the Bureau of Diplomatic Security. They are, after all, the people who watch their backs all the time, and are therefore, "not to be messed with." Except, they may have made a mess of US-India relations — for now.

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3889
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 14 Jan 2014 05:36

sivab wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Devyani-row-How-US-political-wing-let-security-team-run-amok/articleshow/28767404.cms

but the couple at the centre of what New Delhi sees as an outrageous and contemptible caper, US embassy officials Wayne May and his wife Alicia Muller May, have both left New Delhi after the husband was turfed out by MEA in retaliation for Devyani Khobragade's expulsion. Both had diplomatic immunity. As the Mays return to Washington,


Curiouser and curiouser. Does that mean that both have been asked to leave, or is it because the spouse has been asked to leave, all of them left?

member_22733
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3788
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby member_22733 » 14 Jan 2014 05:47

Madhusudhan wrote:Looks like Dean Olsen appears to shares the views of the Mays. Here's a twitter exchange:

AndrewBuncombe ‏@AndrewBuncombe 10h
'Was expelled US diplomat racist? Reminder that anything said on social media can return to bite you. V @DelhiDean http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 719329.cms

Dean Nelson ‏@DelhiDean 9h
@AndrewBuncombe I don't think they were. They don't look good, but many common complaints among homesick expats in there


I dont think they were racists. They were painting everyone with a broad brush and in general degrading every Indian in the India to the level of animals for the only sin of having being born Indian.

FWIW: I dont think they sleep either. They just close their eyes, shut off their brains and rest for sometime.

The thing is, white privilege is a blinding entity. Privilege is like a stench that you were born with. Lets assume you were born with a reeking stench and you smelled like shit all your life, so did everyone else around you. There is no way you are going to realize that you stink. There is no reference that you respect that can tell you otherwise.

This is the root of the dichotomy in the US. The liberal and conservative white society tells everyone that "there is no racism", while the colored folks cry out exactly the opposite. The reason why a white person tells you that there is no racism is because he personally has never experienced it to feel its devastating impact. Whereas a colored person gets a dose of it every day, either openly or subtly. A cop may talk very merrily to a white person (those days are gone now), but would literally interrogate a non-white person. So a white person may never see racism in cops, he or she has never come across it. Even if he or she has seen someone close to him/her getting impacted, it has never impacted them and therefore they cannot empathize. This is true with even the most understanding of white people I know (a couple of them were my ex-GHQs). A white person may perfectly understand what racial bigotry is, but that is a totally different beast from the one that inflicts the white world: racial privilege

An instance of subtle racism is the following: A white person needs another white person to tell him or her that there has been racism in a set of actions taken by a white person. Even if the colored victim of those actions complains about racism, The white person will not believe it. Even if there is irrefutable evidence that is presented, they will not see it. Even if the colored victim gives a sworn testimony, it will be rejected as false allegations.

The above is what is going on in that twitter exchange. Its two white male full of privilege consoling each other and agreeing with each other that there has been no 'racism' while the rest of the colored world sees it as it is, a stinking pile of shit that stinks to the high heavens. The entire rest of India and Indians see it for what it is, yet these white dudes cannot. They have some "special intellect" and some "magical reason" to believe its not "racist".

For a deeper piskological reasoning from a scholar please read Derrick Bell's work. Its summarized in five rules of racial standing. What is going on in that twitter exchange is rule #2.

http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/rm/define/bellsRules.html

SECOND RULE
Not only are blacks' complaints discounted, but black victims of racism are less effective witnesses than are whites, who are members of the oppressor class. This phenomenon reflects a widespread assumption that blacks, unlike whites, cannot be objective on racial issues and will favor their own no matter what. This deep seated belief fuels a continuing effort - despite all manner of Supreme Court decisions intended to curb the practice - to keep black people off juries in cases involving race. Black judges hearing racial cases are eyed suspiciously and sometimes asked to recuse themselves in favor of a white judge - without those making the request even being aware of the paradox in their motions.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10608
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 14 Jan 2014 05:58

Thanks and Congrats to Anmol.

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3264
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Rony » 14 Jan 2014 06:06

Good Post Lokesh !

People can also go through this website to understand white privilege and the race blind phenomenon of whites.

http://euroamerican.org

member_22733
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3788
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby member_22733 » 14 Jan 2014 06:23

^^^ yep, the next step we should await is the enactment of rule#4 in the rulebook:

FOURTH RULE
When a black person or group makes a statement or takes an action that the white community or vocal components thereof deem "outrageous," the latter will actively recruit blacks willing to refute the statement or condemn the action. Blacks who respond to the call to condemnation will receive superstanding status. The blacks who refuse to be recruited will be interpreted as endorsing the statements and action and may suffer political or economic reprisals.


Wait for (f)articles from MUTUs and HouseSlaves in Indian media and US media to "educate" us Indians how we are over-reacting and how Mays are just "frustrated" with India and our "lackadaisical attitude". These articles will be topped with the false propaganda that most of what the Mays vomited on FB was "correct" and how they were "well meaning", and end with how we can improve those situations so that future lords in the US embassy may not complain so much.

Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10608
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 14 Jan 2014 06:43

Good post, Lokesh.

a_bharat
BRFite
Posts: 660
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 09:54

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby a_bharat » 14 Jan 2014 06:46

saip wrote:On Nov 11, when the DS160 was filed no offence was committed as there were no DK lies on the form (in anycase it was signed by SR). I read somewhere it was filled by DK (they even traced the IP to DK's computer)

In India, the IP addresses are not static for home connections. The IP address (seen by outside world) keeps changing every few days and with every reboot of the wireless router etc. Unless US gets the data from the network provider (say BSNL) that provides a mapping between the IP address at a specific point in time to an account, it is not possible for US SD to prove that the IP logged by their web-app belongs to DK.

If the application was filled from the office, the IP address that got logged by the US visa web-app would be corresponding to the office network and doesn't pinpoint DK's PC.
Last edited by a_bharat on 14 Jan 2014 06:48, edited 1 time in total.

amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby amit » 14 Jan 2014 06:48

Re Lokesh Ji's posts

Isn't the good Col Sookla a regular reader of the forum? I'm sure he'll take the hint since the winter is almost over and spring is a good time for an all expenses paid trip to Massa land.

BTW great series of posts in the past few pages. A hat tip to all.

TSJones
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3022
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TSJones » 14 Jan 2014 07:15

Reg. officiousness of US officials is well known,some truly nasties,esp. women are posted as visa officers.But some of our own kind working for them are equally repulsive.Aeons ago when in Univ,as film sec. I used to get films and docs. from the various embassies,consulates,etc.A close relative was Hon.Consul for an EU country who gave me free run of their entire stock.I once borrowed a film from the USIS and when I went there a second time,was rudely received by one of our own "darkies",property manager,whose office was in the basement of all places,telling me "Don't you know who we are,the USA? We Americans don't hand out our films to just anybody!"
I impolitely told him who I was,an Indian in my own country and where he and "his" country could get off with the appropriate finger too.His jaw just dropped,as he had expected some servile whimpering.


This is true. Many times the servants are more royal than the King and Queen so to speak. I think that is where the Mays got bigger than their positions would require. Fatal mistake.

anmol
BRFite
Posts: 1865
Joined: 05 May 2009 17:39

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby anmol » 14 Jan 2014 07:33

www.business-standard.com/article/pti-stories/expelled-diplomat-s-comments-doesn-t-represent-gov-position-us-114011400078_1.html

Expelled diplomat's comments doesn't represent Gov position:US
by Press Trust of India | Washingto, business-standard.com
January 14th 2014

"Those comments absolutely do not reflect US Government policy, nor were they made on any official US Government social media account," State Department Deputy Spokesperson, Marie Harf, told reporters at her daily news conference.

Harf was responding to questions on the Facebook postings by American diplomat Wayne May and her spouse Alicia Muller in which they allegedly make offence comments about India and appear to be insensitive to the Indian culture.

Citing privacy reasons, the State Department official refused to identify the diplomat who was asked to leave India last week. But Indian sources have identified them as Wayne May and Alicia Muller May. The couples were not available for reaction.

Harf said she has not seen the comments.

"I've seen the reports of them... Again, I would underscore that these do not in any way represent the US Government position," she said.

US has distanced itself from the alleged offencive comments made by its diplomat, who was last week expelled by India in a tit-for-tat action following arrest of a senior Indian diplomat in New York last month.

saip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3822
Joined: 17 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saip » 14 Jan 2014 07:39

Congrats, Anmol! Now the US Govt too distanced itself.
Link


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Pingale and 32 guests