India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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rajanb
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby rajanb » 16 Jan 2014 21:51

^^^ That is called killing expelling two birds with one stone. Bravo!

Picklu
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Picklu » 16 Jan 2014 21:56

As the Kenyan issue has shown, US is not above whisking away its guilty citizens back to US, admission of guilt and public outrage in a foreign country be damned.

At the very least, the school director and the tax evading spouses should be put into exit control list. Also all immigration counters should be sensitized about US T-Visa for future incidents.

Since the beginning of this issue, we have waited for two things - a. getting DK and other Indian diplomats absolved of any criminal tag and b. to see punishment of guilty party (US here). Though the first has happened, there is no indication of the second as of now. Instead DK and India has been firmly placed as guilty party via careful media management.

So, any celebration at this point of imagined american squirming is premature. A few 100 or 1000 crore will do nothing to the printing press of world's reserve currency. The only leverage we got are the physical presence of the frauds in India. Once they are allowed to leave - well, we know what happened to Kim Davy. We need to do a Peter Bleach here.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Jan 2014 22:07

Yes,how we act in return for the outrage and insult
The IMR has in a report said that the "top brass of the IAF and IA expressed shock at the decision to award a $1B contract on Dec. 27th for additional Hercules C-130Js"

"Out top priority is to have fighters as soon as possible.,but we are surprised by the MOD move on why the Govt. is not signing the $12B MMRCA (contract with Dassault of France) and instead buying transport aircraft for us,said a "senior IAF official".

IA officials said that it has no combat worthy arty,hoping for the 145 ultra-light howitzer deal to go through,and that more than $40B worth of procurement items were in the pipeline but "no significant purchases are being made".
.

Allegations abound that the MMRCA deal is wantonly being delayed/sabotaged by the US so that its deals get cleared with indecent haste before the Cong/UPA turns "Titanic"!

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Chandragupta » 16 Jan 2014 23:00

http://contrarianworld.blogspot.in/2013 ... ilege.html

Article doing the rounds on FB being shared by leftists. The writer deserves a massive thappad.

Some titbits :


I was extremely pained to see questions asking why does a maid need $9 just because she is working in NYC since her lodging and meals were taken care of. Why does Khobragade or any Indian diplomat need US salaries? After all, they too live in the same consulate. This feigned outrage in India against the treatment meted to Devyani is nothing but the preening middle class asking "how dare a maid take one of our own to court and have her arrested". This is nothing to do with protecting India's honor. Rather it is bourgeoise India reacting with feudal impulses against a maid. There have been other instances when Indians have been arrested, sometimes wrongly too, and not a single squeak was heard from India.

Many seem to ignore that Devyani used every lever of power to crush the maid. As any middle class employer of India would do Devyani too registered a case of theft against the maid, in India, not in NYC where the purported theft took place. An Indian court gagged the maid from pursuing a legal option in US where the grievance, underpayment, was taking place. Above all, the maid's 'official passport', not Indian passport, was cancelled and a non-bailable arrest warrant issued against her. Non-bailable warrant. For what? And a case was registered against the maid's husband too? For what. I am beyond myself for any iota of sympathy for Devyani or the purported outrage to her modesty. Devyani met her match in Preet Bharara. If Bharara did not exist Devyani, in Bollywood film style, would have stamped into the ground the maid and her family. This is not empty conjecture. It is what Devyani set out to do.


So Preet Bharara is a hero for this sootiya.

ramana
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Jan 2014 23:32

TOI Diplomutt Correspondents are out in full force.

Clean Khobragade Mess

I think the writer needs some sensitivty training. First of all its not Khobragade mess but US SD mess. Besides I think she is promoting special interests.



Clean Khobrgade Mess
Indrani Bagchi

US is a legalistic society, so put it all down on paper with built-in reciprocal arrangements.

Devyani Khobragade is back and bidding fair to being a launch-pad for a family political career under the tutelage of an ambitious parent. India-US relations lie in tatters with little expectation of a revival any time soon.

{It takes two hands to clap. Where is the hand from US side? Are you an idiot to demand India do the calpping all by itself?}


The Indian outburst against the diplomat's treatment threw the US. There was nothing when former presidents or sitting ambassadors were patted down by US security officials at airports. It is well known, goes the US understanding, that Indians treat their servants like slaves, without human rights or fair wages and for inhumanly long hours. Indians are bleeding hearts when it comes to a rich female diplomat but ignore the plight of the underpaid, overworked servant.

{This is standard MUTU tactic to repeat the otherside's accusation pretending to be fair and balanced. Its SOP for those who bat against Indian interests.}


American commentary has burned through newsprint and cyberspace about how this rising country juxtaposes a bright and growing middle class with grinding poverty. Oh, and let's not forget that old Draupadi vastraharan story, which is apparently why otherwise sane Indians went ballistic. All arguments intended to highlight one thing — Indians really have no business protesting against the treatment of a diplomat.

Yes, there are many Indians who ill-treat their domestic servants, just like there are innumerable instances of Americans or Europeans or others mistreating their servants and workers. None of this has any bearing on the present case because Sangeeta Richard was not treated improperly or paid poorly. It is about an overweening interest in getting the Richard family over to the US by some 'sympathetic' US officials. The ensuing mess flows from this one fact.

{If you got thsi why did you have to recount the littany of woes peddled by US SD and their minions?}

Whatever MEA's private opinion about Devyani, the Indian system had to stand up for her particularly when there was no wrongdoing. For the same reason that the US stood up for Raymond Davies in Pakistan, India had to protect its officials for its own credibility.

{Are you nuts to compare Raymond Davies who shot dead two paksitanis and Devayani Khobragade who is alleged to have underpaid her maid when all evidence is to the contrary? Learn to make you poitn without resorting to wrong analogy.}


But having emerged on the other side of the looking glass, the Indian system needs to do some serious housekeeping.

{Agreed.}

First, junior diplomats do not need to take domestic helps to the US or European countries. The government can pick up the tab for cleaning services, child care, entertainment etc, but diplomats must learn to live without servants abroad. Pay a maid in the US at the prevailing rate — it's cheaper than taking a servant along. For this, the external affairs ministry (MEA) should change its service rules. The other option is to bring domestic servants under government employment, putting them in a different visa category. The finance ministry opposes that for good reason.

Second, it is very important to work out a set of rules for diplomats, their immunity status or mission security, with the US. The informal 'wink-nod' arrangements with the State Department just do not work. The US is a legalistic society, so put it all down on paper with built-in reciprocal arrangements. The US has been reluctant to have this conversation all these years — the Khobragade affair is a good place to start.

{Again Khobragade affair is not the right term to use.}i/]

The US has already used the issue to unveil a strategic plan to register domestic workers of foreign diplomats in the US for trafficking and other abuses. India should use this to put its own house in order.

The State Department and the US embassy in New Delhi dropped the ball on Khobragade — but so did the MEA. This issue should have been nipped in the bud months ago, particularly when the US Trafficking Act of 2000 makes it easier for Indians of all stripes to be eligible for this status, whether warranted or otherwise. The Indian embassy in Washington and South Block have some answering to do here. New Delhi needs to set up systems that can manage the relationship better, anticipate and solve problems in advance.

[i]{Unnecessary equal-equal here. Did India strip search and cavity search diplomats who exfitrated pending court case people?}


A closer look should be given to how many supposedly rare 'trafficking' visas are issued to Indians. The numbers are shocking: more Indian families get trafficking visas to join their 'trafficked' spouses and parents than any other country. Nobody denies there are huge trafficking issues in India. The home ministry just needs to understand this better by interviewing those going to the US on trafficking visas.
{Have you considered that the US was issuing those trafficking visas to Indians to make India a poster figure in their campaign to reclaim lost moral standing after the Iraq-Afghan war debacle?}

India and the US conducted a bilateral conversation on trafficking that, like many other bilateral initiatives, has fallen silent. Neither Barack Obama nor Manmohan Singh is parti-cularly interested in the bilateral relationship. Nor is Susan Rice or Shivshankar Menon. But we cannot let a vital relationship like this fall prey to competing negligence.

As envoy to China, S Jaishankar led the Indian team to put India-China ties on an even keel, and in a previous avatar was India's lead negotiator for the nuclear deal, acknowledged as the only high point in the UPA decade. A top-notch negotiator, Jaishankar has a more challenging job as he steps over the broken china in Washington. His primary task will be to put back on course a strategic partnership gone awry. The first ice-breaker happened on Tuesday with a lunch meeting with William Burns.

During the Khobragade crisis, Jaishankar and foreign secretary Sujatha Singh teamed up effectively, which bodes well for the future because it will be Sujatha's job to rally South Block to ensure MEA goes beyond hurt egos and 'diploutrage'. There is a time for anger. But now is the time to move on India's interests. Of those there are many.


{Here the true purpose of her article comes out. She imagines that there could be bad blood between Sujatha Singh and S. Jaishankar who were contenders for the MEA secy job and is happy that they are working together. Note her praising SJ's skills but not acknowledging SS!}



There is time for moving beyond anger. India has not yet shown anger.
All that was done is to revoke non-reciprocal facilities extended in a moment of weakness.
True reciprocal action has not been taken. And US knows that.

Nesoj
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Nesoj » 17 Jan 2014 00:19

[url]State Department removes 2 from posts in India after 'vegetarians are doing the raping' comment

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politic ... z2qagkXjD9
[/url]

“These social media posts are as offensive as they are moronic, and are in no way a reflection of United States policy or the dedicated employees of the State Department,” said a spokesman for Rep. Eliot Engel (D-Bronx), ranking member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

Strong Language from a House Member ... The Mays are 'dead meat' by now !!! - more protein for Paco !!
:rotfl: :rotfl:

sivab
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sivab » 17 Jan 2014 00:29

^^^ From above link

Alicia Muller May and Wayne May were let go after making comments on social media about Indian culture.


Were they really fired?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ranjbe » 17 Jan 2014 00:54

Jarita wrote:Can we not use the word Dalits? That itself was created by US churches. Can we mention - disadvantaged jaatis or harijans


The word 'Dalit' was popularized by a noted Marathi "SC/ST" poet Namdeo Dhasal - who founded the Dalit Panthers and tragically died a few days ago - and became widely accepted by people of that community. It is similar to 'people of a particular ethnicity' in the USA who themselves made clear that they preferred the term 'African-American' to 'Black' or any other term.

Vayutuvan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 17 Jan 2014 01:22

Singha wrote:years and years of living like a wealthy roman camp among poor gaulish villages have rendered the patricians soft and left quite a few loose ends that poor gauls can now creep forward and pull the fat senators toga down.

Asterix (anmol) drank the magic potion brewed by Cacofonix (Social Media) to vanquish the garrison and made them retreat.

Prem Kumar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 17 Jan 2014 01:57

TOI-let paper d0uchebagism in full force. Why are they reprinting the New York Times article by Gardiner Harris?

American embassy school ensnared in India-US diplomatic spat

The headline's usage of the word "ensnared" is designed to give the impression that somehow the school is innocent and they have been *trapped* by the evil Indians (or) *unwittingly dragged* into this diplomatic conflict. The headline doesn't state that this is a case of institutionalized tax-evasion.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2014 02:11

Letters in Telegraph, Kolkata

Letters to editor

Letters to Editor
Murky episode

Sir — The Khobragade affair began with a bang but ended with a whimper (“Devyani leaves US”, Jan 10). But we may not have yet seen the last episode of this riveting drama. The aggrieved IFS officer leaves not vindicated but under a cloud of criminal indictment; she could be arrested if she were to enter the United States of America without diplomatic immunity to meet her husband, who is a US citizen.

As a non-resident Indian from Calcutta who has lived in New York for long, I was both amused and ashamed by the embarrassing antics of the government of India as it negotiated with the US justice system to extricate Khobragade from the imbroglio. Her claims of innocence were loud and insistent, but she found no support or sympathy from the members of the Indian-American community in the US. This was a pointed rebuke of the arrogance of senior government officials who believe they are entitled to preferential treatment in other countries simply because of their privileged ranks in India’s bureaucratic hierarchy. That is not how the American justice system works — it justly upholds the principle of equality of all before the law.

But the outrage orchestrated by India’s elite played well with the masses. The Lok Sabha elections are slated for this year, and the electoral success of the Aam Aadmi Party has made established political parties nervous. The last resort of these politicians was to project themselves as the guardians of national pride so as better exploit the vote bank.

This may make some Indians feel righteous even though the rights and dignity of the maid have been allegedly trampled upon. But in the US it shows Indians to be hypocrites. They appear to be comfortable with double standards. All Indians are apparently equal, but some Indians are more privileged than others especially when a maid has the temerity to question her powerful employer. As Khobragade settles behind her desk in South Block, she would need to introspect upon not only her visa fraud and allegations of exploitation but also the bad name earned by India in the US on account of her dubious actions.

Yours faithfully,
Debbir B. Dasgupta,




New York, US


Sir — In his article, “The Khobragade affair” (Jan 9), Mukul Kesavan says there is nothing “normal” about diplomatic immunity. His views are based on conclusions drawn from the Raymond Davis affair. Davis, an American security contractor, after killing two Pakistani citizens in Lahore, could manage to get diplomatic immunity with the help of the American authorities and was released from a Pakistani jail quite easily. Devyani Khobragade, on the other hand, was arrested, strip-searched and harassed on the charge of underpaying her housemaid. The US authorities have not shown any decency in dealing with a respectable diplomat from a friendly country.

As was reported, Davis shot dead two Pakistanis on a crowded street in Lahore and then made his way in a car that ran over and killed another man. The US invoked the Vienna Convention to claim diplomatic immunity for Davis. Surprisingly, Davis was not even listed as a diplomat at the time of the killings. Yet, the US authorities intervened through President Barack Obama to rescue him from the Pakistani jail.

Davis’s crime was far more grave. In his case, the law should have been allowed to take its own course. Khobragade’s crime was that her nanny, Sangeeta Richard, had been issued a visa on a false declaration made by the diplomat. The nanny was allegedly paid less than what was promised. The charges against her, if proved to be true, are not to be taken lightly. But they are neither as grievous as those against Davis.

According to the Indian media, Khobragade had full diplomatic immunity at the time of her arrest, and the US authorities knew this. The Indian media also claim that Khobragade’s housekeeper is actually, in effect, an Indian government employee under the Indian diplomat’s charge. The payment made to her by the diplomat cannot be the concern of the US legal system. Even if these arguments have loopholes, Khobragade’s respectable position as an Indian diplomat of high rank in the US cannot be ignored. The Indian authorities should have dealt with the matter in a far more sensitive manner.

The casual approach with which the US authorities have treated Khobragade mirrors the attitude of politicians on foreign trips. India has let itself be taken for granted by the US.

India must immediately start its own inquiry into the matter in order to get to the truth. Relying solely on the wisdom of the American legal system was a huge mistake. It may make us further vulnerable to the whims of other countries. The Vienna Convention allows a nation to waive diplomatic immunity if the crime committed by its representative is so egregious that justice would be served by a waiver. In the case of Davis, instead of allowing justice to prevail, the US invoked diplomatic immunity to protect a killer. This shows how biased the US’s standpoint is. One feels that the United Nations human rights commission must intervene in such matters. India, too, needs to learn a lesson from this episode. Foreign diplomats must be told about the laws of the country where they are posted. If such an episode is repeated, it will deeply tarnish India’s image in the eyes of the world.

Yours faithfully,
Benu Kumar Bose,




Calcutta


Prasad
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 17 Jan 2014 02:14

ramana wrote:Letters in Telegraph, Kolkata

Letters to editor

Letters to Editor
Murky episode

Sir — The Khobragade affair began with a bang but ended with a whimper (“Devyani leaves US”, Jan 10). But we may not have yet seen the last episode of this riveting drama. The aggrieved IFS officer leaves not vindicated but under a cloud of criminal indictment; she could be arrested if she were to enter the United States of America without diplomatic immunity to meet her husband, who is a US citizen.

As a non-resident Indian from Calcutta who has lived in New York for long, I was both amused and ashamed by the embarrassing antics of the government of India as it negotiated with the US justice system to extricate Khobragade from the imbroglio. Her claims of innocence were loud and insistent, but she found no support or sympathy from the members of the Indian-American community in the US. This was a pointed rebuke of the arrogance of senior government officials who believe they are entitled to preferential treatment in other countries simply because of their privileged ranks in India’s bureaucratic hierarchy. That is not how the American justice system works — it justly upholds the principle of equality of all before the law.

But the outrage orchestrated by India’s elite played well with the masses. The Lok Sabha elections are slated for this year, and the electoral success of the Aam Aadmi Party has made established political parties nervous. The last resort of these politicians was to project themselves as the guardians of national pride so as better exploit the vote bank.

This may make some Indians feel righteous even though the rights and dignity of the maid have been allegedly trampled upon. But in the US it shows Indians to be hypocrites. They appear to be comfortable with double standards. All Indians are apparently equal, but some Indians are more privileged than others especially when a maid has the temerity to question her powerful employer. As Khobragade settles behind her desk in South Block, she would need to introspect upon not only her visa fraud and allegations of exploitation but also the bad name earned by India in the US on account of her dubious actions.

Yours faithfully,
Debbir B. Dasgupta,




X-posted from understanding the US thread -

There is a greater amount of positive news reinforced by the rather coocooned existence of NRIs in the US who bring back their tales to India. There is hardly any mention of the inequalities in the US or the continuation of existing prejudices to the lower classes and minorities in the country. Since many NRIs do not stay in or interact with a lot of the lower strata, their situation and troubles are never seen by these people and hence there is a gaping hole in their understanding of the american society. How many students who go to the us even drive through a 'ghetto'? Or understand the disparity in publics shools between middle class suburbian neighbourhoods and the poorer sections of their city/county? Everyone wants to put their children in the best school in the town and move to be under a particular school's area but do not bring such things up, even when they know it, while discussing inequalities and the influence it carries over the lives of the next generation. However, they're ready to spout the nonsense that the law is enforced and justice is carried out without any bias or influence by the upper class. Exposure to the wide range of american society is woefully inadequate to portray it as an utopia which is what many visitors from our country to the us do.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby krisna » 17 Jan 2014 02:26

FWIW---
India is the largest third world country with stable democracy. Has a good influence on a number of countries across the world of its kind-- I mean 3rd world types.

The stand taken by India however small it may look at towards the superpower has given some hope to these countries that one can still fight to some extent against first world.

India at least has mutus and Indics. Other third world countries have none of these issues as all are mutu equivalents.

Many folks of third world countries are all hooked onto uncle bandwagon.

Only Indians to a great extent have some degree of fight left (irrespective of sell out by the current govt)

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Hitesh » 17 Jan 2014 03:38

I need the link where it shows that DK did not underpaid SR but paid more than the 30,000 rupees a month which was deposited in the Indian bank in India. And I also need a link or document where SR's husband filed a petition against DK in Indian court.

I am debating the DK affair with a person from a US congressman's office that SR was being coerced against her will. I need to dispel notions that SR was being mistreated and that DK tried to take advantage of Indian law and judiciary to intimidate SR. The person claimed that SR's husband filed a petition in May in Delhi court claiming mistreatment by DK on SR.

Also I need the link where DK did not fill out the application or sign the application which make her culpable for visa fraud.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2014 03:40

Hate to do this but you need to go to page ~110 of this thread when the episode started. So most likely around page 115 you will get those. Unless ArmenT can use his magic program.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Anindya » 17 Jan 2014 03:49

Hitesh - see if this works for you...

Documents show Devyani Khobragade 'overpaid' her maid Sangeeta Richard

I would also look up the TOI URL that talks about proof of SR's life and expensive gifts sent to India.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RCase » 17 Jan 2014 04:34

I propose the following to the BRF lexicon in honor of Anmol:

ANMAULED- A blindsiding, career threatening, mauling maneuver that leverages the use of technolgy to throw light on the nefarious social media/ on-line activities (especially of the TFTA). Changes front foot gains into sudden back foot reversals, resulting in a series of position switches and whitewashing attempts to control the damage of each individual post.


Source of inspiration:

AMOLED (active-matrix organic light-emitting diode) is a display technology for use in mobile devices and televisions.
An AMOLED display consists of an active matrix of OLED pixels that generate light (luminescence) upon electrical activation that have been deposited or integrated onto a thin-film-transistor (TFT) array, which functions as a series of switches to control the current flowing to each individual pixel.

ramana
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2014 05:07

SwamyG or any one willing to do this. Ae we ready to do a mind map of all the complex factors/actors in this US-India diplomatic incident?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Rudradev » 17 Jan 2014 05:35

mahadevbhu wrote:
Rudradev wrote:I'm curious. The words "conspiracy theory" seem to be thrown around in reckless abundance of late, especially by posters who tend to take a certain US centric view of the Khobragade matter. What exactly, in the view of these esteemed posters, qualifies an idea, a statement, or a collection of statements to fit the description of a "conspiracy theory"? Is there any benchmark, any given set of conditions that we on BRF have generally accepted as defining this category?

Or indeed, is the term "conspiracy theory"- like the terms "fascist" or "Communal"- being used to bulldoze and hegemonize discourse so that it excludes points of view, lines of argument, or even whole realms of thought that are somehow inconvenient to the people throwing it around? Specifically- is any attempt to connect dots between Khobragade's arrest and other recent events, any effort to explore how this affair fits into the broader construction of narratives (and the motive behind those narratives), any speculation that progresses an inch beyond the tunnel-vision of endlessly repeated minutiae that are ultra-specific to this case alone, being referred to as a "conspiracy theory" here?

If that is the case, maybe the more sincere participants of this "Strategic Issues" forum need to take a closer look at what the posters who incessantly cry "conspiracy theory" are doing to the quality of discourse here. And whether, in fact, the term is being employed simply as a more gentrified form of trolling.


I apologize for getting personal, but in your case , my CTRadar goes off when you construct a fanciful scenario or theory , connecting multiple seemingly unrelated threads together. Reading too much into a situation is called CTbaazi.


Mahadevbhu, thanks for your reply, and honestly, there's no apology necessary.

In response, I would submit that almost every discovery in the realm of human knowledge has come from applying exactly the same thought process that you have described as CTbaazi... connecting seemingly unrelated events or observations and coming up with a theory to explain them. Many times the theories offered have seemed fanciful. In fact, many times the theories offered have turned out to be completely wrong. Yet, if this thought process was not applied, it is doubtful whether humans would ever have discovered anything. Even if the connecting theories are correct only 1% of the time, it is still advantageous to have a society where the thought process is encouraged rather than suppressed by calling it "CTbaazi"... no?

For example consider the following seemingly unconnected observations:
1) Before a thunderstorm, the hairs on my arm stand on end.
2) During a thunderstorm, white flashes of light come from clouds in the sky.
3) After a thunderstorm, I sometimes see that a tree has been burned down to a charred stump.

If a thought process was not applied to construct theories that could connect these events, would we ever have understood the nature of electricity, or how to harness it? It would have been far more difficult, if not impossible, in an environment where such a thought process was suppressed. Indeed, societies where the culture of thought encourages the construction and debate of theories to explain seemingly disconnected observations, are invariably more advanced than others.

Now let's take another example, from the less neat world of social sciences. Here are four seemingly unconnected observations:
1) The US government has consistently encouraged Kashmiri separatist politicians, from the 1950s until the present.
2) Twitter is a US-based company.
3) Social media, such as Twitter, was instrumental in the Tahrir Square protests and other public demonstrations of the "Arab Spring" movements.
4) Twitter has recently appointed Raheel Khursheed, a person with known Kashmiri separatist views, as its India head.

Now Person A may look at these observations and come up with the following theory to explain them:

"The US government is planning to use Twitter to encourage and coordinate activism among Kashmiri separatists."


Let us say Person B disagrees with this theory. In a discussion forum like BRF, Person B has two ways to approach the situation.

1) Person B can argue the merits of the theory advanced by Person A. For example, he can say:

"If Raheel Khursheed is an undercover plant by the US government, why is he drawing attention to himself by making inflammatory remarks on Twitter? Should he not maintain a low profile until the opportune time comes to strike?"


This is a good response, because it begins a healthy debate on the specific merits of Person A's theory. Theories should be debated, and survive or die based on their merits. Regardless of the outcome, everyone is a net gainer: Person A, Person B, and BRF itself for fostering a culture of thought where such a discussion can take place.

OR

2) Person B can say:

You are overthinking it! You are reading too much into disconnected events and raising fanciful theories! This is CTbaazi!


This is the intellectually lazy option for Person B, because he doesn't have to apply any thought process of his own. All he is doing is labeling Person A's thought process as "CTbaazi" to discredit Person A's conclusions. He does not need to offer his own argument about the specific merits of the theory, or tax his own brain at all.

It is also, I argue, a very dangerous option where BRF (the environment of discussion) itself is concerned. If most people in a society start to take the intellectually lazy way out and label other people's arguments as "CTbaazi" rather than contest them on the merits, it poisons the entire culture of thought and lowers the overall standard of discussion immeasurably. And it is highly detrimental to the society as a whole.

Think back to your school class. I went to a typical Indian school of the Nehru-initiated, NCERT-propagated educational system. 90% of the students in my class almost never offered an original thought in any classroom discussion. They would rarely put their hand up even to answer a direct question from the teacher, and absolutely never put their hand up without prompting.

Why was this so? Is it because 90% of Indian school students never have any original thoughts at all? Certainly not. It's because in the environment of an Nehruvian-NCERT educational system, where mediocrity and anonymity are the most prized virtues, 90% of Indian school students are afraid that their thought process will be ridiculed if they make it public. On the rare occasions when a student did offer an original thought, more often than not he or she WAS laughed at, by all their fellow students and sometimes even by the teacher! And then we wonder why India has all these problems, while Indians who go abroad for education invariably do so well. It is very largely because we have poisoned the culture of thought itself, and stupefied the native intellectual capacities of generation after generation of Indians.

That is exactly the danger that faces a discussion forum like BRF when we start to look at ideas through the filter of a "CT radar", or to reflexively label the theories of others as "CTbaazi" when they challenge our own cognitive dissonance. Labeling something as a "conspiracy theory" is the weakest of all possible arguments-- it shows a lack of the intellectual rigor needed to oppose it in specific terms, and reduces the debate to no more than a name-calling contest. Much worse for BRF as a whole, this sort of labeling can discourage other members from offering their own ideas, for fear that they too will be labeled as "conspiracy theories." We need to think about what kind of environment we want this forum to provide.

That's it from me, sorry for the OT!
Last edited by Rudradev on 17 Jan 2014 05:38, edited 1 time in total.

saip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saip » 17 Jan 2014 05:37

Hitesh:

DK appears to have filled out the application. DK did not sign the form SR160 but it was signed by SR as she was the applicant. DK filed her own application and then a few days later filled out SR's application. Both according to Mr. Smith who filed the original complaint were done on the same computer as the IPs matched. I gave this information a few pages back. I will see if I can find it.

ramana
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2014 05:48

Another take would be when cognitive dissonance kicks in then disconcerting theories are termed CTbazi.
As humans we all have inherent beliefs and biases and are on one staedy course. Suddenly new facts come to light which challeng our baises and beliefs. We tend to discount the new facts or theories due to cognitive dissonance.

Rolf Dobelli has written a book on the ~100 different biases and fallacies that deter us from thinking clearly(or cognitive error).
I would urge all our folks to read up if possible.

For example since we know how the incident played out if we apply linear thinking (Newtonian-Descartes methodology) backwards we would be guilty of hindsight bias.
We would cherry pick (another bias) those items or facts that fit our story bias!
In the end a lion will end up looking like a kitty cat or vice versa.

chanakyaa
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 17 Jan 2014 06:03

Ramanji thanks for for the book reference (a fun read)

krisna wrote:FWIW---
India is the largest third world country with stable democracy. Has a good influence on a number of countries across the world of its kind-- I mean 3rd world types.

The stand taken by India however small it may look at towards the superpower has given some hope to these countries that one can still fight to some extent against first world.

India at least has mutus and Indics. Other third world countries have none of these issues as all are mutu equivalents.

Many folks of third world countries are all hooked onto uncle bandwagon.

Only Indians to a great extent have some degree of fight left (irrespective of sell out by the current govt)


On this positive note, can we stop referring ourselves using meaningless reference terms (third world) developed by the west?

KLNMurthy
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 17 Jan 2014 06:24

RCase wrote:I propose the following to the BRF lexicon in honor of Anmol:

ANMAULED- A blindsiding, career threatening, mauling maneuver that leverages the use of technolgy to throw light on the nefarious social media/ on-line activities (especially of the TFTA). Changes front foot gains into sudden back foot reversals, resulting in a series of position switches and whitewashing attempts to control the damage of each individual post.


Source of inspiration:

AMOLED (active-matrix organic light-emitting diode) is a display technology for use in mobile devices and televisions.
An AMOLED display consists of an active matrix of OLED pixels that generate light (luminescence) upon electrical activation that have been deposited or integrated onto a thin-film-transistor (TFT) array, which functions as a series of switches to control the current flowing to each individual pixel.


enthusiastically seconded.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby a_bharat » 17 Jan 2014 06:41

Typical drivel from a white man, but I agree with the last sentence.

It's not the treatment of Devyani Khobragade that is fuelling India's anger at the US
Americans are entitled to wonder what the hell is going on. There is a one-word answer: elections.

Ms Khobragade is a Dalit, from a formerly “untouchable” sub-caste. Her ancestors swept the streets, but Ms Khobragade has made it all the way up to the top of Indian society.

Because of their long history of struggle against oppression, Dalits are hyper-sensitive to perceived humiliation, which inevitably reminds them of their lowly roots. And they have become a political force to reckon with, their “vote bank” amounting to 15 per cent of the population.


It is improbable that American officials will be dumb enough to admit it, but it would not be surprising if some malfeasance turned up: given the byzantine and sometimes predatory nature of Indian bureaucracy, Americans in New Delhi are no more likely to tell the local authorities the whole truth and nothing but the truth than their Indian counterparts in the US. American sanctimoniousness has really come round and bitten them on the ass.

rajpa
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby rajpa » 17 Jan 2014 06:45

And Anmaulaner - one who anmauls

Prasad
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 17 Jan 2014 07:25

Not to keep going on the same point but law enforcement isn't the perfectly legalistic and unbiased thing as many nris seem to think it is and constantly espouse. Case in point: http://gawker.com/man-who-endured-3-ene ... 1502645746
Last edited by Prasad on 17 Jan 2014 08:41, edited 2 times in total.

vish_mulay
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vish_mulay » 17 Jan 2014 07:51

Shikha Dalmias take on this affair. Blames Bharara for high handed MUTUness.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/indian-bo ... _click=rss

There are no saints in the saga of Devyani Khobragade, the Indian diplomat who was forced last week to leave America (and her American husband and kids) to escape a humiliating trial for allegedly underpaying her housekeeper, also an Indian.

But if there is a sinner here, it is not the diplomat or the housekeeper. It is the U.S. attorney for Manhattan, Preet Bharara, an Obama appointee, whose crusade will hurt those in whose name he launched it: foreign domestic help.

habal
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby habal » 17 Jan 2014 07:55

ramana wrote:Another take would be when cognitive dissonance kicks in then disconcerting theories are termed CTbazi.
As humans we all have inherent beliefs and biases and are on one staedy course. Suddenly new facts come to light which challeng our baises and beliefs. We tend to discount the new facts or theories due to cognitive dissonance.

Rolf Dobelli has written a book on the ~100 different biases and fallacies that deter us from thinking clearly(or cognitive error).
I would urge all our folks to read up if possible.

For example since we know how the incident played out if we apply linear thinking (Newtonian-Descartes methodology) backwards we would be guilty of hindsight bias.
We would cherry pick (another bias) those items or facts that fit our story bias!
In the end a lion will end up looking like a kitty cat or vice versa.


In a human life, at one point or another, we all shall come face to face with some fact or truth so absurd that it shall shake us to our very foundations and threaten our belief-system and sanctity of the structure we consider inviolable. How we deal with our resulting cognitive dissonance shall decide whether we follow the path of dharma or are content to hitch our ride to adharma (IOW status-quo). In non-dharmic status quo, no change in belief system is required because the architects of that belief system have structured it in such a way that only malfeasance, negativity, discord & ill will can win ultimately in such a system.

MurthyB
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby MurthyB » 17 Jan 2014 08:00

Prasad wrote:Not to keep going on the same point but law enforcement isn't the perfectly legalistic and unbiased as many nris seem to think it is and constantly espouse. Case in point:http://gawker.com/man-who-endured-3-enema-traffic-stop-awarded-1-6-milli-1502645746


:eek: :eek: :eek: Wow, this, and the other video of a traffic stop of wimmins are images that will be forever seared in my mind. Bulbuddin Ghusaomatyar has company! At least I hope they told him his prostate was ok.

sanjaykumar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby sanjaykumar » 17 Jan 2014 08:12

And also tonsils.

Karan Dixit
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan Dixit » 17 Jan 2014 08:23

arun wrote:American Embassy School in eye of multi-crore tax scam : First Post


Indian government's chalta hai attitude towards law enforcement creates all sorts of confusion. The tax money Indian government failed to collect could have been used to help poor people increase protein in their diet or implement programs to feed the cows on the streets better.

Also, on a separate note, I heard a bizarre thing from Delhi Police regarding the Danish woman's alleged rape. The woman refused to undergo medical examination in India. Delhi police indicated that the woman would undergo medical exam in Denmark and that would be used as proof to construct case against the culprits. Now, no police from any other country would accept medical reports from a foreign country as an evidence especially in this kind of situation where there was an opportunity to gather the evidence right away. Indian institutions need to realize these kind of things and their ramifications.

vic
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vic » 17 Jan 2014 08:25

Anti Indian TOI let newspaper attacked Deyani and Sarabhai in front page for many days. They called BRF trolls. But when it comes to thousands of crores of rupees worth of tax fraud and criminal activity, they are protective of US Embassy. It seems that only IFS lobby is using notice baazi to protect their turf, they have neither any support from GOI, nor Taxmen, nor Delhi Police nor Engleess Media.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Nesoj » 17 Jan 2014 08:48

American School in Delhi not run by Embassy: US
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/american-school-in-delhi-not-run-by-embassy-us_904736.html

Washington: The American Embassy School in New Delhi, which is being accused by the Indian government of violating visa and local laws, is not run by the US mission, a senior State Department official has said.

However, the US is talking with India at the diplomatic level to address concerns of the Indian Government in this regard, the official said.

"It (American Embassy School) is not run by the embassy. Only about a third of the students there are American. We are in discussion with the government of India regarding issues they have raised concerning the school," State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki told reporters yesterday.


The US SD seems to be washing it's hands off the School Scam ... to avoid any tax claims !! :roll:
High time, the Indian Immigration & Tax Authorities pick up Paul Chmelik, the school's top administrator for visa fraud and running an illegal immigration / employment network.
Also would be advantages to send Income tax notices to all the illegals working there and their names on airport 'no fly' lists.
Last edited by Nesoj on 17 Jan 2014 09:03, edited 1 time in total.

chaanakya
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 17 Jan 2014 08:58

That's good news. We can stop the school for various violations and pick up a few as they don't have any immunity. USD is certainly not involved in this scam but few of embassy officials' spouses are ripe for SOP.

vic
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vic » 17 Jan 2014 08:58

So American School and American center is a money making, tax evading, criminal activity done PRIVATELY by some US citizens and Embassy persons. Now we should raid and do a Pandu Danda Rape on all diplomatic spouses there.

vic
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vic » 17 Jan 2014 08:59

WHO OWNS THE SCHOOL & IT'S LAND?? It is worth around Rs. 2000 crores.

Altair
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Altair » 17 Jan 2014 09:11

MEA is building a strong case against American tax evasions. The logic is to extract money from US and then US will find a scapegoat for the losses. Someone has to pay!! This is all going to hit PB soo hardddd...

Gus
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Gus » 17 Jan 2014 09:13

Prasad wrote:Not to keep going on the same point but law enforcement isn't the perfectly legalistic and unbiased thing as many nris seem to think it is and constantly espouse. Case in point: http://gawker.com/man-who-endured-3-ene ... 1502645746


just recently the cops who beat a homeless man to death, were acquitted.

Nesoj
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Nesoj » 17 Jan 2014 09:17

As part of 'reciprocal agreements', India should either shut down the School altogether, or now demand an equivalent plot of land in Washington to run a CBSC school and 'Indian Center', wherein we could start a Tandoori joint and Udupi Restaurant, open to the public, and yes !! stock Cuban cigars in the store !!

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby shyam » 17 Jan 2014 09:18

pankajs wrote:The 16 American teachers in question are the spouses of American diplomats who enjoy tax exemption while the spouses are not entitled to tax exemption. The American diplomats (who enjoy tax exemption) have given their own salary account number for transmitting salaries of their spouses. Thus, two salaries and one account.

By doing this, they have abused the gratuitous tax exemption privilege given to them and violated local tax law. It is time to remove the tax exemption status. If it was to be given to some people, tax exemption should be only up to a limit (say $20K) set by Indian babus. They have to pay tax in India for any income and other benefits from school above that limit.


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